A (2:19)

Well, that's awesome because I think Megan comments are fresh on our brain because in a recent article for Troner, Magazine. At the start, I just lightly criticized the practice of using podium girls, quote unquote, in the Tour de France. That practice where some young women kiss the winners on the cheek. I thought that was totally normal. Apparently that's a political question and it got a number of very angry comments. So, yeah, I am. I've been busy wading into waters of crap recently, so it'll be an interesting podcast.

B (2:51)

So first, I. I was shocked about that. Hold on. But I'm also hoping that this might spur the development of a female Tour de France where males, as you pointed out in the article, are dressed up in sailors or sailors outfits kissing the females.

A (3:02)

That would be sweet. I just really want male podium boys in general because I feel like at some point in my life that would have been a wonderful option. Not because of my, you know, my books wouldn't have done it, but I think I could have brought some enthusiasm to the podium. That would have really helped. So, yeah, Some Work All Play. Why is it even called that before we jump into our first topic? So Some Work All Play was just a little turn of praise that we threw out there late at night. One night in 2013 when Megan was busy studying medical school and I was like, well, I don't have anything to do, so I should probably start a business. So our business is called Some Work All Play. It's coaching, it's writing, it's a lot of jokes about dogs and that sort of thing. So that's why the podcast is called that. Plus, I'm not really good at making titles for things, so we're sticking with what we got. So. Yeah. Anything you want to add before we jump in?

B (3:55)

Just that I'm excited about this. Damn, this is awesome. We do a lot of podcasts together where we are not the host, and it's kind of crazy to be in control of the questions. We kind of know what we're going to talk about. This is very strange.

A (4:07)

It's also moderately horrifying because any mistakes are purely on us.

B (4:11)

We do get to edit, though. We've never gotten to edit before. That's kind of fun.

A (4:14)

But you think I can edit? You better be stepping up for that.

B (4:17)

I don't know. They may not be edited.

A (4:19)

Yeah, you'll hopefully get some insight into our relationship, too, especially as we start making fun of each other. So for our very first question, we're going to turn down the notch a little and instead make a statement. And that statement is simple. Black Lives Matter. You know, I think starting this podcast when we are in this era of a real focus on racial justice that's essentially needed means that we want that to be an undercurrent. Not just racial justice, but justice in every form. So when thinking about the Black Lives Matter issue, something we thought a lot about as coaches and Megan as a doctor and me as a lawyer, and I think, for me, at least, it was helpful to rewind a little bit to where I grew up. So I grew up on a farm on the Eastern shore of Maryland. It was 30 miles to my high school, just the. The type of place that, you know, you would hear about in a country song. There was corn fields, there were girls in, like, jeans and boots and that sort of thing.

B (5:21)

But you kind of got, like, a Southern twang to your voice, as you said a lot.

A (5:25)

You better believe it.

B (5:26)

Wow. I've never heard that before.

A (5:27)

A country singer is my alternate lifestyle, I imagine. And so what I remember, though really distinctly, is going down those streets and every single mile, you could find a Confederate flag. And, you know, it's weird looking back, because a lot of those people didn't fully understand the evil contained in that symbol. And I think that now the country is having a reckoning. I would hope that those Confederate flags still aren't up, though. You know, Mississippi still has it in their state flag, so maybe I shouldn't be too hopeful. And I remember a lot of comments made on the football team, which was probably half black, half white, where one guy made a comment of, you know, about my. One of my best friends, like, he's one of the good ones, and something like that. And it's. That type of racism, I think, is so much easier to contextualize. Like, we're like, oh, that red state racism. And I think that that was much easier for me to understand until my lawyer life later on, when most of my work at first was in the. On the Gulf coast in Louisiana and that sort of thing. And through that, I got to meet some amazing community organizers and other people standing up for, you know, against racism, anti racism, and then also bringing it into environmental issues. And the stories that they told were just as horrifying, but often dressed up in a fancy suit so that it wasn't as obvious. And that insidious racism that we all play a part in, you know, if we participate in society, is something that we need to fight against so hard. So what I was told in those meetings is that the. What we need to do is listen to start. And, you know, if you're. If you're white and otherwise, you know, I think Megan has really helped me try to think about, okay, now that I'm doing less of the law stuff like, how can I make a difference and lift up anti racist movements and be a part of that.

B (7:31)

Thank you, David. That was amazing. Thank you so much for doing that. I just feel grateful to get to learn from you and to get to listen to you and to take this all in. So thank you. I just learned a ton in that very short period of time.

A (7:43)

Well, I think one thing that as we're talking about this issue, we, we have, fortunately, we've tried to talk to as many human rights and racism experts as we possibly can before this podcast and just so we can support our athletes as best as we can too. And I think what Megan is really going to get into here is how difficult it can be to talk using language that maybe we're not accustomed to. And she's really helped me think about that.

B (8:10)

Yeah, absolutely. So I think for me, the primary, the primary place that I've seen systemic racism displayed is in the healthcare system. Just in terms of the inequities, in longevity, in terms of healthcare access that black Americans face in the United States. It's really, really tough. And I think when I think about it for how I can help the situation, I think I was initially paralyzed. I think I'm the sort of person that when I want to respond to something, I want to be perfectly educated on it. I want to have the absolute right words to say. And I think when this first happened, I was like, how can I incorporate. Incorporate this into my work? How can I incorporate this into things that I already know and love and do it in a way where I'm continuing to listen and continuing to stay educated and honestly. It felt overwhelming at first. And I think that that feeling of being overwhelmed, of wanting to help, but feeling overwhelmed and powerless is something that I've seen actually echoed across a lot of our SWAP athletes training logs. You know, people who just really want to be there right now to support black Lives Matter, to help combat injustices and just not knowing how to do it. And I think listening to those athletes, listening to you, David, you've been an amazing force on this. I've just like, really been dedicated to the fact of working this into the everyday things I do. So, you know, incorporating racial injustices and racial inequities, highlighting those in the research that I do and seeing how I can, you know, help make changes, even if it's in a small way hoping that feeds forward and just being there to support Athletes, I guess.

A (9:40)

Yeah. I think that's, like, perfect. And what, like, with some of the black athletes on the team told me to really focus on in this conversation is that it's every little thing we do, from obvious things like how we interact with others to where we put our money to where we put our time, how we speak, whether we're actually willing to speak up and take risks and mess up that all of that plays a role. So what my goal personally to do is to be more courageous, you know, not just on Black Lives Matter issues, but also transgender athlete rights, you know, gender equity in sport, all of the other topics that maybe our lives touch as directly as we can. And let's all freaking stand up and speak. That doesn't mean that we're going to speak. Right. Like, even on this podcast, I'm sure we're messing things up sometimes. I mean, a lot of times we're.

B (10:38)

Smiling at each other, and now we're like, oh, crap, what have we already stepped in? Yeah.

A (10:41)

Yeah, but that's not the point. I mean, the point is that through this process, lift up black voices, amplify them. And the same goes for transgender athlete voices, female voices, like every. Every marginalized group that we can, focusing on race, but also extending it into whatever other avenues we have. And through that, that's when really interesting things can start to happen and we can all find our little callings, like, you know, yeah, we're not going to solve racial injustice on our own, but that's not the point. The point is to take the little actions that all of us can. Yeah, I know. I have a lot of work to do.

B (11:17)

Yeah. And I think the other thing, too, is getting to the idea about speaking up. I think speaking up to family, to friends, to close ones who may say things that are just not right and being honest with them. But I think the thing that goes alongside of that is also to extend grace to people, because I. I think right now, people respond to situations in very different ways. Some people take the time to be educated. Some people really want to sit back and learn before saying anything, and that's totally okay. Just extending that grace and understanding that everyone is going to respond to this in a different way.

A (11:51)

Yeah. And so I'll end this little conversation and we'll go to slightly different topics with a brief story about some of my work in Alaska with law, which is working with Inuit tribes along the Arctic Circle. And, you know, as a lawyer, you're taught that there is. There are certain answers. Right. Like the law and the way cases apply it and regulations all come together to create this framework. And through that framework, you can have different interpretations, but we're all working within the same law. And what I'll always remember is talking about to an elder a few years ago when I first went to Alaska, and what they said to me and what they said with the most voice. Emotion in their voice that you could possibly imagine is that all of this law that you're talking about is based in systemic racism. Right? So the system that you are working within is fully racist, even if you are not. So the point isn't to change the system slightly at the edges. The point is to break the system and start anew. So when you're thinking about how you approach these issues, know that it's okay to move fast and break things, because if something starts with racism, it's not going to grow out into something more beautiful and accepting. Right? You need to cut that racism out at the root. That goes with law most specifically. But I think, you know, there might be some analogies there for everything, you know, from the way that we think about the running world and diversity to the way we think about medicine and diversity and all these other things. And that being an anti racist doesn't mean that. I think the comfort level thing, it's like using this system that works for us white, you know, two white people speaking and trimming at the edges so it's more presentable and instead just be like, bring out the shears, chop it off and see what you. What comes back.

B (13:46)

Damn, that was good. Are we allowed to curse on you?

A (13:49)

Sure, let's go for it.

B (13:50)

Let's do it.

A (13:51)

All right. I think we'll probably already make some audience hate us. So if anyone doesn't like cursing, we apologize. Okay, so that is Black Lives Matter. We're going to try to talk about those issues every week, whether it's transgender, athlete rights, gender, but in shorter bursts. But we thought it was really essential that we start with that today. So question 2. A different tone shift.

B (14:11)

I know. I feel like we need one of those awkward PowerPoint transitions from the early 2000s that just goes right into this. This, like, big, big, important topic. Into the topic.

A (14:22)

Perfect. That was great. That sounded a little bit funny. So question 2. What is the best post? Exercise, Food. And the reason that this, this question is designed to try to be a total change of pace. And so what it's based on is a study just came out in the European Journal of Applied Physiology. So, you know, we're smart. And what it was talking about is that glycogen recovery. So how essentially, which is a proxy for how your body adapts and recovers doesn't really matter based on what food you have. And some of the past studies have used things like burgers, cokes, fries, all of which do an amazing job compared to like the most state of the art recovery food. So I think this is mostly a way for us to really set the tone that part of what we're going to try to talk about a lot is that all food is good food. We want food to be fun here. So Megan, what is the best post exercise food to you?

B (15:15)

That's a tough one. I think it's probably a toss up between a milkshake and a toaster waffle with all of the delicious ingredients on top. So when I'm talking toaster waffle, I'm talking like toaster waffle with strawberries and whipped cream and chocolate sauce and all of that delicious.

A (15:30)

You want like a quadruple decker.

B (15:32)

A quadruple decker.

A (15:33)

It's going to be like the Titanic of toaster waffles.

B (15:35)

Exactly.

A (15:35)

Just going to take you down.

B (15:36)

And someday when I actually get my shit together, these will be like real deal Belden waffles, because I'll start making them.

A (15:41)

Okay. Yeah. Because right now we just do the freezer. The freezer variety.

B (15:45)

How about you?

A (15:46)

It's a good question. So for me, my actual answer is salt and vinegar potato chips. I probably just ate my weight in them when I got back from my run for some reason. Like, it's the one thing that always tastes good to me. But my semi serious, more serious answer is that both Megan and I try as much as we can to do like, like a scoop of vega protein in a smoothie or something like that. Because for us at least, like, we often will undershoot protein levels. Based on our conversations with Kylie Van Horn, a great nutritionist, if we don't at least supplement a little bit. So if you're out there and you're like, I'm sore all the time, consider just getting like a big tub of vega protein. I even gave it to my dad, who might be listening to this podcast apparently, and he's been feeling better than ever at 1669, which is nice. But yeah. So actually Megan's answer. How about. So on her. Oh, on her one year anniversary of her hamstring surgery story for another episode, we went running in Rocky Mountain National Park. And then a little bit of a rough day. What happened there?

B (16:50)

Oh, I just felt terrible, honestly, like it was one of those runs where two minutes into the run my legs hurt already and I was like, this is going to be a long day. Happy one year anniversary. My legs feel like crap. But it was, it was still a really fun day and we had a great time in the mountains. But immediately after finishing that run, I had the most massive chocolate, actually chocolate peanut butter M and M milkshake. It was, it was very good and it was like all of the life just started coming back into my legs and my body and I got like euphoric and giddy and made hopefully some good jokes at that point. But it, it just opened my eyes to the fact that I was like probably pretty bonked out in glycogen even when starting the run.

A (17:30)

Yeah. And I've never, we have never done cocaine, but I imagine if Megan were on cocaine, it would be like she was the rest of the day after that milkshake. And I think that that really draws home the point of like sometimes you just need to eat a crap ton. Like if you're feeling like rough as an athlete, just throw some food into the fire that you know your fire is burning hot and it just burns hotter when you put more into it. Like a lot of the studies that are coming out more and more, you can't tell by looking at someone metabolism just increases as within day deficits decrease. So we really want to encourage a place here where you're like, if you're listening to this running, what we want you thinking about right now is not our voices, it's whatever greasy, gooey thing is awaiting you at home. Though gooey might be a little gross depending on your feelings on asmr.

B (18:20)

I think an interesting anecdote too that I have seen personally and with athletes that I coach is that often mood tracks with slight periods of under, under feeling. Whether that's inadvertent under feeling or whatever. I often see that athletes who are struggling with mood or possibly even struggling with sleep, waking up in the middle of the night hungry is one of those great signs that you should be eating more. So you know, if you're. If you've been feeling consistently down for a period of time, try bumping up the intake and see what happens. I, I've seen a lot of athletes benefit from it.

A (18:50)

When in doubt, throw a milkshake at it.

B (18:52)

Exactly.

A (18:52)

Hughes had it right all those years ago.

B (18:54)

Or maybe some vegan protein. We are not sponsored by vega protein. I feel like, I know with the number of athletes we've referred to vega protein, we should probably reach out.

A (19:01)

Man, we are missing out. We need to get ads for this podcast too. Maybe we can get like, golden retrievers or something. So question three. What should you wear a mask? Oh, that's a big one too. That one's going to the epidemiologist in the room.

B (19:16)

Oh, Lord. Thank you. This is a very good question. Yes, you should wear a mask. Masks have become an interesting debate recently. Social media has been live with, with, with fun thoughts about masks. But, yes, please wear a mask in public. That would be amazing. I, I, this is interesting. So I don't always run with a mask just because the nature of our running is we're often on very remote trails, we don't see anyone. But what I would say about mask wearing is just be nice to people. Um, so my personal experience is, so we were running on kind of a more remote mountain trail. I was running decently fast downhill and happened to come into contact. Not contact. This sounds contact in the COVID word. Sounds Covid world sounds terrifying.

A (20:00)

You were going five minutes for mile pace. You were coming into contact with anything.

B (20:03)

I was rolling along downhill and a hiker actually got very upset with me because I guess I was coming a little close to her, but I was moving pretty fast and she stuck out her hiking pole and told me to move six feet and I actually, I fell as a result of that. And it was one of those, like, very frustrating.

A (20:20)

Megan got hitchecked by an old woman is what we're trying to say.

B (20:24)

I tried to do a juke around the hiking pole and it did not work out very well. So I guess my point on the topic is, yes, masks are important right now. Like, public health is an important topic. Keeping our, you know, our older folks healthy, keeping people who are immunocompromised healthy is also something that's valuable out of this entire conversation. But just please be nice. You know what I mean? It's, I think.

A (20:46)

Wait, wait, wait. So, referencing where I grew up, I still have some Facebook friends and I have heard on Facebook that apparently masks are both tyranny, they don't work, and they could even be a George Soros conspiracy. How true is that?

B (21:02)

Oh, my gosh, are we screwed?

A (21:04)

Is my basic question.

B (21:05)

I'm a little bit worried about America right now, to be perfectly honest with you. I think being in the world of epidemiology, it's quite clear that we don't honestly have a good idea of where our models are going or how this is all going to end up. But I will tell you this America is not in a good trend right now and it's horrifying to see.

A (21:24)

Oh my gosh. Based on the comments I've seen on my recent articles, I'm guessing that this isn't going to end very well. Though I think our one message on Covid before we move on is that we do have a lack of control. Getting back to this is a common, a common resource problem. So as you're thinking about these issues, try not to exert too much personal control over the decisions of others. Like, you know, we should all do our part as much as we can. But you know, when we talk about we're all in it together, we mean all few hundred million of us. So most of all, don't like, don't hold on too tightly to a race you have coming up or anything like that. Try to find joy in the day. Remember that the goal isn't to be very good at a pandemic. The goal is just to get through this. And we got this. Even if the we might be people.

B (22:17)

People bearing ski poles and ready to use them.

A (22:20)

Yeah, even if they're included in the we, unfortunately. So our next topic, question four is going to be how should athletes think about their bodies? We're going to do a general like food ish thing here because we have a 30 minute max on recording.

B (22:36)

Oh shoot. We are just. I'm like, you just skipped question three. What are you talking about?

A (22:39)

Yeah, yeah, we'll come back to question three next time.

B (22:40)

Okay, great.

A (22:41)

So question four, how should athletes think about their bodies? And what we're going to say is find your frickin strong out there. The main thing to remember with this is that what strong looks like varies wildly among different people. We are just all genetic tapestries that like it varies so beautifully and wildly. And that is what is so cool about being human. It's also what can be so scary that when you see the woman winning the Olympics, like what her strong looks like is probably whatever is crossing that finish line. But like my strong doesn't look anything like the guy winning the Olympics. And like Megan's doesn't look like that woman either. You know, Megan was a field hockey player in college. And the goal is not to find your skinniest version of yourself or your leanest version of yourself is to find the version of you that feels like. And I'm just going to use sound effect. Rawr.

B (23:35)

That's a really good sound effect.

A (23:37)

How does the doctor feel about that? Is that what you say to patients?

B (23:40)

No. Okay. My thoughts on this topic, I always encourage athletes to think about how your body is going to feel. Pounding down a mountain. Hammering down a mountain, that's when you want your body to be strong. That's when the feeling really comes into play play. And doing that over and over and over again, that's the best way to create a resilient body. It's the best way to be, have longevity in this sport, to be able to show up, to continue to race year after year after year.

A (24:05)

Yeah, yeah. And like I think with running it's easy to idealize it as this. Like, you know, you see a picture, it's like that person's just floating, but in reality has nothing to do with floating. I mean you're pounding the ground like that and man, I am bringing the sound effects in the first episode. So this is great. And so when you're thinking about that, you need a body that can stand up to the test of time because your potential is this huge, massive thing. But you can only start to find that over years. And to do that you need to give your body fuel. Not just fuel to stay healthy, but fuel to actually adapt to what you're doing. Glycogen availability is the number one predictor of adaptation rates. So bring it. Find your strong in fueling, find your strong in your training and all these other things. You know, you don't want to be like a skinny, mini weak version of yourself. You want to be the version of yourself that's ready to throw down.

B (24:58)

I also think find your strong goes right alongside of finding your joy. Both in terms of like eating should be a joyful experience. Many times like, you know, eat delicious foods, have that experience with others, getting to share the joy of eating with people that you love and care about. But I think the other thing too is that often as I was talking about before, inadvertent feeling does impact mood. Like I know for me there's been times when, when I've inadvertently under fueled. Whether that's because we've been at higher altitude or training might be a little higher. I'm just super busy and I've been negligent and it's really like the restoration of actually having good energy availability is where I feel that joy again. And I've worked with athletes again and again who have similar experiences and it's been pretty eye opening for me as a coach and as a physician.

A (25:41)

So secretly this is like a guerrilla marketing pain for like, plan for like Land O' Lakes or something. The Butter company is our true sponsor, but just under the surface. So, no, essentially, like, we haven't had a scale in our house for like seven years.

B (25:57)

A long, long time.

A (25:58)

Because it's really hard to step off that game. Like, we talk about this, but for both of us, like, you know, I'll see a, like a picture of myself and I'll be like, that person doesn't. You know, like, your brain makes these leaps that you can't really control.

B (26:09)

So the point isn't that often other people don't see. Yeah, yeah, because you'll make a comment sometimes and I'll be like, what the.

A (26:14)

Hell are you seeing?

B (26:15)

I see a beautiful man over here. What are you talking about?

A (26:18)

Man, I'm glad my dad heard that one. No, so, like, you know, the idea is to make sure that that self judgment part of your brain, not that you always turn it off because that's not going to happen for, especially for motivated people, but instead you, like, reason with it lovingly. And this all has to come from a place of love. Later in future episodes, we'll talk about eating disorders and things like that in much more detail. But for now, just know you're freaking perfect the way you are and we love you and we're not going to say you're sexy. That's something we say to each other more. But, like, you're emotionally sexy and physically perfect and that's awkward and might get edited, but perhaps not. And so our final point, because we have three minutes left on this clock that we didn't realize existed.

B (27:00)

This is like being in a presentation and seeing the clock tick down and you're like, I only got through the first two slides.

A (27:06)

This is terrible.

B (27:06)

Oh, man.

A (27:07)

We'll have to talk about public school speaking.

B (27:09)

Oh, God.

A (27:10)

On the next one. So the final point and the final. It's not even a question, so we're just going to leave with a message. So I guess we're changing the format, but it's to shoot your shot. You know, when we're. When we're thinking about things like this podcast or our writing or our coaching, I look back and I'm like, man, I'm just so lucky I didn't overthink things before. I took leaps. And then I look back at things I did overthink, and I'm like, what might have happened if not for that? So, you know, Megan, like, with your. You're a great example. You know, you finished med school and you decided not to practice medicine. Like, what happened?

B (27:45)

Yeah, that was horrifying. Well, I think the thing about shooting your Shot is that you have this, like, moment of panic as you're shooting your shot. And you kind of like, you kind of like go and shoot a little and shoot a little, and shoot a little. And it takes a really long time to release. And that's okay. Yeah. So I decided not to go to residency, which was I actually put in an application for residency and pulled it out four days later because I decided it wasn't what I wanted to do.

A (28:06)

So the pull out method for residency applications.

B (28:09)

No, I'm definitely not going to residency.

A (28:12)

I'm just trying to prevent any possibility of residency.

B (28:15)

Yeah. And so I decided ultimately that I wanted to stick with coaching, stick with writing, to be able to do the research that I love and get to work with athletes in this way. And it's been an amazing journey, but.

A (28:26)

It'S been hard, right?

B (28:27)

It was challenging as heck. It was one of those things where for a few months I had no idea what I was doing with my life. And I remember, like, going out to hike in the city field and just like wandering around every day being like, maybe something will come to me. Maybe I'll learn out here. Maybe I'll figure out what the heck I'm gonna do with my life and just kind of feeling like a failure during that time. And right now I feel like things have really aligned with work and getting to do what I love. And I'm just grateful that I did shoot that shot. Even though it took a lot of fakes, a lot of, like, a lot of talk to be able to just shoot, just shoot, just shoot.

A (28:58)

And in practice, you probably missed like four shots and then you hit the fifth. And the point isn't to make every shot you take or whatever. The point is to just put it up like you're Steph Curry crossing the three point line. So that's, I mean, what we are most proud of with coaching isn't necessarily like an athlete that wins races or whatever. It's how many athletes have quit jobs that didn't make them happy. And so, you know, when you're thinking about moving forward through life, know that there are no right answers, but there also are no wrong answers. What we want you to do and what we want, we're like talking to ourselves right now, is to put yourself out there, get vulnerable, make mistakes, and just freaking go for it. Because when you dream big like that, that's when crazy, amazing things are possible. And, you know, Megan's inspired me with that and so many athletes have. So we love you guys. We're running on our 30 minute thing.

B (29:47)

We got 15 seconds left.

A (29:48)

Do we have any final things that we say at the end of our podcast?

B (29:50)

Yeah, just don't listen to this on 1.5 speed.

A (29:52)

Yeah, don't do that. And we love you.

B (29:55)

You guys are the best.

A (29:56)

See you next week. Woo hoo.