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- [00:00]
A
Jeffrey R. Woo hoo. Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today for episode 28.
- [00:08]
B
28, wow. We're moving and grooving through these episodes.
- [00:10]
A
I know. It's amazing how one number comes after the other. I'm like, what is next week going to be? It's crazy.
- [00:15]
B
Look at us.
- [00:16]
A
I know. So episode 28 is going to be the Darrell Green episode. Darrell Green was a legend in my household growing up as a fan of the Washington football team. He's a Hall of Fame cornerback. Um, and perhaps his biggest claim to fame didn't even happen in his playing career when at age 50, he ran a 4.43 second 40 yard dash.
- [00:36]
B
That is fast. That's smoking fast. Like very, very fast.
- [00:39]
A
It's unbelievable. And the big apocryphal story, the legendary story in our house was that in 1988, right after I was born, he was a star cornerback, so he didn't really return kicks, which is kind of a dangerous thing to do. But in the playoffs against the Chicago Bears, the Redskins were down. Oh, the Washington football team. That name is so unfortunate. I'm amazed they kept it that long. We're down 14 to nothing. And he trotted out for the punt return. And what did he do? He turned it. He returned it all the way for a touchdown. And every other time that he came out to return a punt in his rest of his career, the other team just shaked in their boots because the fastest player in the NFL was back there to return that kick.
- [01:16]
B
Well, gotta be honest, I didn't know much about Daryl Green until this morning when I decided to research and again do an extensive Wikipedia blast on. Yeah, but what I love is. So he referred to himself, he was a pretty small player. He referred to himself as the ittype. And I couldn't get it out of my head. I was like, lizzo is going to love this guy. Because, you know, in Lizzo's song, she's like, I like big boys. Itty bitty boys. She would totally go for Daryl Green at age. He's probably like age 60 now.
- [01:38]
A
I don't know. Yeah, he's probably still running like, faster than I ever could dream of. Yeah. And Daryl Green, and after his playing career, he goes to inner city schools and talks about his journey and every. All the obstacles that he overcame to get where he got to. And I love that part too, that this, this legend of the sport always gives time back to the community. Yeah. Yeah. So I also think it's Kind of funny that basically, these number games are me getting to tell you about remembering some guys as. As the website defector talks about from my childhood.
- [02:09]
B
Well, I was gonna say, I. I told you this morning. I was like, this is fun. I get to research these random athletes. It's great. But what was interesting, so to put the. The 4, 4, 3, 40 into context is, so when I heard number 28 for our podcast, I was thinking, oh, my gosh, Ronaldo. In his early days, Ronaldo ran a 4, 4, 7.
- [02:27]
A
Like, known as one of the faster players, too.
- [02:29]
B
So, so fast. I think the caveat there is, like, soccer players aren't training for the four.
- [02:32]
A
Yeah, he probably never actually even ran a 40.
- [02:34]
B
Wasn't even tried.
- [02:35]
A
They're probably just estimating or something.
- [02:36]
B
Ronaldo, I mean, he's the FIFA world player of the year. He was a leading scorer for Real Madrid. He's fantastic. But anyways, he wore number 28 in his early days, and then when he got treated and he went to go play for Manchester United, he had to wear number seven. Because that's like all the greats that Manchester United have worn. All the great forwards at Manchester United, Beckham, War 7. They actually call it the Red 7 just because it's such an honorary number. And then he went to play for morale Madrid and had to wear number nine before going back to number seven. And I just loved. I was like, this guy is kind of a boss to be able to just handle all of these different number changes. Like, you would think he, you know, as one of the best players in the world, he'd, like, be more attached to a number. And he didn't seem to care.
- [03:12]
A
I feel like American sports players would never stand for that.
- [03:14]
B
Like, yeah, they'd be like, no, if I. You know, they would work this into the contract negotiations. Like, if I'm coming to Real Madrid, I am wearing number seven.
- [03:20]
A
I've heard of players that, like, will buy someone a car or give them $50,000 to make sure they get their number if it's like, if someone else is wearing it.
- [03:27]
B
Well, it's topical because just as we were about to record this podcast, we had a question roll in from KP about superstitions and what we do for our own superstitions. And it made me laugh because here, you know, Ronaldo, one of the best athletes in the world, doesn't seem to have many superstitions in his numbers, at least.
- [03:41]
A
Yeah, um, his abs might have superstitions, because that's the most main thing I know about Him. Um, but yeah, when we were growing up, I definitely had a lot of superstitions. Like, it was something that was, like, really powerful when I was playing baseball and things. I specifically remember my senior year in baseball. We were down six runs going into the final inning, and I was in center field standing on one foot and saying in my head that if we come back and win this game, I promise to go to church every single Sunday.
- [04:08]
B
Wow, you've really done great on that bar.
- [04:10]
A
Well, there was like, I don't know.
- [04:11]
B
If I've ever been to church with you. Yeah, you even get married in a.
- [04:14]
A
Church, there's maybe, like, a 0.1% chance of winning that game. Of course we come back and win that game. And then for the next, like, I don't know, three months, I would watch church on tv. I would watch, like, some random. And then eventually it petered out, and I'm like, oh, crap. Hopefully I don't get struck down by lightning.
- [04:31]
B
This is the first time I've heard this story.
- [04:33]
A
I didn't even talk about it when we talked about the podcast. Yeah. So that my superstition has since gone by the wayside. Perhaps the only superstition I really have now is to make sure I have my breathe right strip going out the door. The other day, I ran, like, half a mile out and then was like, I feel so naked. I'm missing something. And I ran back in and grabbed it and put on my nose. Strip. And. And Megan just looked at me and didn't say a word the whole time and then just shook her head.
- [04:54]
B
You also have that superstition at night before you have to go to sleep. Sometimes we're, like, lying there in the dark and I hear this crap. And then all this, like, wrestling around trying to find the breathe right shipbox. I'm like, yeah, there it goes. But I had superstition so totally. I mean, I was very, very superstitious as a soccer player, as a field hockey player. I remember in high school, I had to eat Lucky Charms before all of my field hockey games.
- [05:12]
A
Oh, lucky. They're lucky.
- [05:14]
B
It's right there in my name, and it's delicious. I was like. I was, of course, like, trying to mine for the different marshmallows in the cereal.
- [05:19]
A
We can start that superstition I had.
- [05:21]
B
I mean, so many superstitions. Like, left shoe on before, right shoe, these special socks, underwear, all these things. But it's funny because I've lost them over time.
- [05:28]
A
Do you remember how you lost them? Or is it just A gradual process.
- [05:30]
B
Well, I mean, I'm just not organized enough to have superstitions. Like, I barely have clean socks to begin with. Like, are like, we're lucky if we have cereal downstairs. Like, I feel like I have just come out of superstitions because I'm like, well, this is just not convenient for me. I'm not organized enough for this.
- [05:44]
A
I love that. Well, we're always have cereal because Claire Gallagher sends us, like, boxes that are, you know, cafeteria sized. 10 bags of chocolate checks.
- [05:52]
B
Well, I just think. I think superstitions are fun. I think they can be helpful sometimes. I have seen them be detrimental occasionally for athletes because it's like, you know, if you have superstitions, there are going to be times when they have to be broken and like, you just have to be flexible enough to handle that.
- [06:04]
A
Yeah. And if they're fun, whatever, that's great. Lucky charms, awesome. But giving yourself into the uncertainty of the world is part of the fun too. And superstitions are a way of trying to cling on to certainty. And I think that's why kids have them so much, for example, because, you know, kids are just like, the uncertainty is so overwhelming if they really think about it. So, like, there's. There could be monsters under the bed. And then as you get older, you get a little bit more comfortable with that. So I encourage athletes to not necessarily feel like they need to do anything other than their trusty breather.
- [06:32]
B
That's a great point. And as a kid, my mom was doing my laundry, to be honest. And it was way easier to have superstition.
- [06:36]
A
Maybe our superstition needs to be. To get. Get Sharon here to, you know, get us some Tide pods and get to work. Um, yeah. And so we also came out with a new playlist this week. So the some work all playlists on Spotify. So you can search that. It's essentially some of our favorite running jams. It builds off our last two playlists because we always get great feedback on those, that people really love them for their long runs.
- [06:57]
B
And I was gonna say it's pretty long. So we had this discussion early on. I was like, david, we should just put 20 songs on there. And he's like, no, it has to cover a full long run.
- [07:03]
A
Yeah.
- [07:03]
B
And so you can get through a pretty decent long run listening to this whole playlist, which is exciting.
- [07:06]
A
Well, Frank Shorter used to say that a long run is two hours or 20 miles, whichever comes first. He should change that to it's two hours or a full Some work. All playlist whatever comes first. And so we were going to discuss just each our favorite song. And there are always one song that just jumps out to us. So I'm going to start with a slight joke, but not really. And my favorite song is by the Lonely Island, I Just had Sex, which kind of a joke song. It was initially on Saturday Night Live, but the reason I'm pointing it out is one, it's a straight banger, and two, literally, yeah. Oh, my God, I didn't even think about that. Two, it's absolutely brilliant. And it's brilliant in a fully silly way. So, you know, Andy, Samberg and Jorma, I forget all their names. They've since become, you know, acclaimed actors and directors and producers and things. And it really points out something that actually heard Adam Sandler say on a podcast, on the Smartless podcast, where he's like, sometimes he does dramatic roles for which he's been nominated for Oscars because it's a break. Because comedy takes so much work, finding that energy requires so much more of him than doing a really serious dramatic world that he might get an Oscar nomination for. So what's cool about Lonely island guys is they see all the complexity of the world come to I just had sex. And then that's their, you know, that's their song that gets world famous.
- [08:22]
B
I love that statement. I think since I've, you know, known you, I've really just embraced silly humor more than I did. I think as a kid, I was like, that's stupid. There's so many complexities and nuances in that. Like, I remember, like, initially being, like, zoolander, terrible movie. And then I watched it with you, I was like, oh, this is everything that I was missing. And I feel like Lonely island, like, brings me back to that. Yeah.
- [08:40]
A
And embracing that humor in all of our lives, you know, the silliness, like, life is serious and dark. You know, I mean, there's a, like, John Mulaney, our favorite comedian in the world, just checked into rehab yesterday for drugs and alcohol, which is totally, you know, like, John Mulaney is an amazing person, and getting help is so important, but it just shows that his humor is tied directly to the darkness. And, you know, I think it's like that for all of us, that humor, light and dark are right there. And so I think finding the light often requires a crap ton of work and energy in things and trying to be that, be the lonely island for people.
- [09:11]
B
Well, I appreciate it. So the way that we do these playlists is that you put 15 songs on. I put 15 songs on. And then we kind of do this, like, trade and barter deal where we have to advocate for the songs that we want and it becomes good marital compromise. But so I listened to your first 15 songs, and I didn't know what was coming. I was running up a hill here in Boulder, and all of a sudden I heard the Lonely island come on, and it was like a snowy day, and it was for sure the light I needed in that day. And I could not stop laughing.
- [09:34]
A
That makes me.
- [09:35]
B
For that.
- [09:35]
A
I was worried that that was going to get. Get chopped from the list. And when you were. When you said how much you loved it, it made me so happy. Because at the end of that song, when they're just like, we all just had sex, I'm like, that is my favorite. Like, I can never take life too seriously when I hear that.
- [09:48]
B
I will always remember the run going up the Boulder Reservoir hill. Hearing that and just being like, David, that is fantastic.
- [09:53]
A
So what's your song?
- [09:54]
B
So my song is. Wait for it by Lin Manuel Miranda as part of Hamilton, so sung by.
- [09:58]
A
Leslie Odom, I believe. Yes.
- [10:00]
B
And, I mean, we've talked about this before on the podcast. I love Hamilton. Hamilton is brilliant. The play. Lin Manuel Miranda, incredible creator, actually, the way that this song was created. So Lin Manuel Miranda wrote this on or he kind of came up with the idea. Idea on the way. On the way to a party. He was in the subway, only stayed at the party for 15 minutes and was like, peace out, guys. I got a brilliant idea. And then he went back and like, kind of jotted down the song. But then he took a year to hone it in to really create it. And he's just such a process person.
- [10:27]
A
And I love that we were listening, we were watching Song Song Exploder on Netflix, something we totally recommend. It's very interesting to see how musicians go about their creative process. And Lin memoir. Miranda says this is the most. The best song he's ever written. And the reason is not necessarily the exact, like, how the song is structured, but how it plays into the broader character development of Aaron Burr, this character that, you know, is an antagonist. But in being the antagonist, he is all of us. He is all of us trying to exert control on his world.
- [10:57]
B
Well, what I love is, you know, he's set up as this antagonist and Hamilton, as you mentioned, but he struggles with, like, feelings of comparing himself to Hamilton. He struggles with his family situation. He struggles with love. And I feel like it's. They create this vulnerability around this antagonist that I love and it just makes me think about the fact of, like, people you may resent or people you struggle with. It's like everyone is dealing with something, and I love. So these are my favorite lyrics. Love doesn't discriminate between the sinners and the saints. It takes and it takes and it takes and we keep loving anyway. We laugh and we cry and we break and we make our mistakes. And I feel like that is everyone in life. Like, we're all making our mistakes. We're all loving. And then he follows it up with death doesn't discriminate between the sinners and the saints. It takes and it takes and we keep living anyway. We rise and we fall and we break and we make our mistakes. And it's like, you know, we're all thinking about love, we're all thinking about death, we're all thinking about our enemies. And it's like. It's just this. I don't know, it just casts this really interesting light on Aaron Burr. And Lin Manuel Miranda did it in.
- [11:48]
A
Just a Genius and connecting love and death. And then there's also a line in I am the one thing in life I can control. So, you know, this character, Aaron Burr is essentially, you know, his parents died young. He's trying to find love with. In an extramarital affair. And, you know, he's. He's doing all these things, and the whole time he's just trying. He's trying to claw his way to this control element that he can't reach. Meanwhile, Hamilton has nothing to lose. And, you know, I think the Wait for It's such a powerful anthem in this character that believes it so deeply. But us as listeners know that, like, actually wait for it. Waiting for it is not the idea. It's going for it. That's the idea.
- [12:28]
B
Well, the interesting thing about the Control piece is I have seen people reference it as this exciting, like, well, I am the one I control. That means, like, other people's actions, they don't impact me. But I feel like I see it as this. You know, he is so centered around that control that it's limiting to him. And I think it's like, the control word there is interesting to me.
- [12:44]
A
Well, I love that you did a metaphor about love and death and control and Myers just. I just had sex, though maybe Wait for it applies on that first one, too.
- [12:53]
B
Oh, wow, that's a great joke.
- [12:56]
A
Yeah. And so we're also. Our favorite vitamins were out, which was a really unsat. And, like, not happy things. We can't get our favorite multivitamins. So we were just scrounging around trying to find something, and so Megan came up with a great answer to that question.
- [13:10]
B
Yeah, so I had these. These old prenatal vitamins. I was gonna say, David, you could have made this transition way better. Yeah, but I had these old prenatal vitamins because sometime in 2017, I was struggling with my hamstring so much that for one month, I was like, let's get pregnant. Let's do this. And so I've been taking prenatal vitamins for the last week because I'm like, well, they're only the only vitamins in the house, and turns out they're expired. But I'm just really excited to power my food baby with folic acid.
- [13:33]
A
I know. Yeah. So it's pretty powerful. That take prenatal vitamins. How'd you feel?
- [13:36]
B
Have you been feeling pretty normal? Yeah. I mean, they're actually not that different compared to standard vitamins. They just have a little bit higher folic acid. Some of them have higher omega 3s in them. But some women. I mean, some women take them, you know, throughout the childbearing years, even if they don't intend to take them. I told you. You actually asked that question yesterday. I was like, david, you should not take prenatal.
- [13:53]
A
Just in case.
- [13:54]
B
Just in case.
- [13:55]
A
Just in case they have something in there.
- [13:56]
B
I think they're fine, but you never know.
- [13:57]
A
Well, so she took them. And then like 15 minutes later, I was looking at it because I was like, maybe I should take these, too. And then I went to the expiration thing, and it said 11, 20, 18. So, one, it puts a date on when you had your brief moment of, like, hamstring existential crisis. And two, that might not be a good thing for vitamins. I'm not sure, actually.
- [14:18]
B
I googled it, and they said it was totally fine. I wouldn't recommend it. I mean, like, why take expired vitamins?
- [14:22]
A
Some anchovy ingredients in there. That can't be good two years later.
- [14:25]
B
Yeah, that was for the Omega 3s.
- [14:26]
A
Okay.
- [14:26]
B
But, you know, I googled it, and it actually said it was fine. I mean, I wouldn't recommend taking expired vitamins because. Just order new vitamins. But, I mean, I was. I was fine in the moment, But I think it brought up. We had this discussion last night. We've seen a lot of athletes right now grappling with the decision of whether to get pregnant. I think these Covid times, people are thinking about it more or less or whatever it may Be. And I think just for us, it was like. It truly emphasizes the fact that this is a difficult decision for women, especially athletes, when you're thinking about using your body and coming back from pregnancy. Like, I know for me, like, growing up as a kid, when people ask me what I wanted to be, I was like, first I want to be a soccer player, then I want to be a mom, and then I want to be a soccer mom. And I had this, like, whole progression planned out from soccer player to soccer mom. And, like, kids are still something. Like, I really, really want to have kids. And, you know that we've talked about this a lot, but it's like, you know, I. Coming back from a hamstring injury, I want to wait two, three years. But I think there's always something in the back of my mind, like, well.
- [15:16]
A
What you said two to three years, 10 years ago, you know, it keeps getting pushed back, which is such a tricky place to be. I can't imagine what the stresses are on women, you know, because for me, I don't have the biological urge. If there. If that is a thing. I don't know.
- [15:28]
B
Oh, very much it's a thing for me. I'm like, you know, quite often, I'm like, let's have a baby. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have, like, you know, running goals right now and career goals.
- [15:35]
A
And I'm like, let's practice. No, I mean. And, you know, I was talking to an athlete about it on a long phone call today, not practicing, but, you know, thinking about having a kid. And, you know, the answer isn't that, oh, is this the right time? The answer is that whatever direction you go is the right decision. I mean, we've been fortunate to see a lot of athletes go through it from the beginning, both, like, having trouble conceiving or considering conceiving. And then the pregnancy process and then postpartum and everything. And the big conclusion is that everyone is so strikingly different that there is no wrong answer. It's just like you're going into the. You know, it's like Aaron Burr, you know, you don't have control, and you're in that lack of control. You're kind of just trying to find your way.
- [16:15]
B
And I think not only is everyone so different, every pregnancy is so different. So I've coached some women through their first pregnancy, and it's been great, or it may be tough, and then the second pregnancy is totally different, and you just don't know. I think recently Alofene came out after she had an incredible Olympic trial, so still planning to race the Olympics. And she's due soon in January with a baby girl, which is super exciting. And she talked about the fact that she's run 70 miles a week during pregnancy. It's been incredible. And I had a few athletes, you know, tell me in their logs after the fact that, like, that does not reflect my experience at all. I was not able to run through pregnancy. It was painful, it was terrible. It was tough. And I think it's just hard because everyone has such different experiences with it.
- [16:49]
A
Yeah, I mean, I had one athlete that about a month in was just like, I just can't run anymore. But then at seven months, she's able to run again, you know, and it just shows that everyone is so different. And wherever you're at in the process listening to this, you know, as a woman going through it, like, know that you're sharing that story with others and that the things that are told online might not always be your personal experience, but wherever your experience is, it's okay. And talk about it with people, too, because I think it's comforting to know that you're not alone.
- [17:20]
B
And there's tons of cool physiology on this. I would love to do an entire higher episode again. We can do another women's performance episode, talking specifically about fertility, about pregnancy, about coming back postpartum, all of these exciting things, because there's so many topics that we could do here. And the reproductive endocrinology behind it is cool science.
- [17:35]
A
I love that. So, last story of the intro. We might extend the podcast just a few minutes. Today is a story in the Athletic about Oban Marjanovic, who is a 7 foot 4 basketball player, mostly from the on the bench. But basically this article is just a series of quotes from his teammates saying that he is, quote, literally the nicest human being I have ever met. Quote. He doesn't just sit on the bench and pout because he's not playing. He legitimately cares about everyone else doing well.
- [18:06]
B
Okay, so I love this quote because I have sat on the bench before and I was the worst person in the world sitting on the bench. Like, it was. It like, tore my soul apart. It tore my ego apart. It was hard. I did this my senior year in college. I sat on the bench and field hockey. It was terrible. And I like the fact that he's able to do this while sitting on the bench. Incredible.
- [18:22]
A
Especially because he was, I'm sure, a star when he came into the NBA. And then, you know, NBA has passed him by. 7 foot 4. People that do not run the rim are just not that valuable in a three point shooting league. And the whole time, though, every single place he goes, everyone says he's the most valuable teammate we've ever had. When he gets traded, one teammate was like, I cried all night because he left the team. You know that he's just lifting people up and being that person. That, okay, he has his limitations, but one thing that is unlimited is his ability to lift others up. And to me, that's. That's the biggest motivation because we all have our limitations. Like, I know I have limitations as a runner. And that's why one reason I think, like, coaching was so natural to me, it's like, well, I love the process of trying to be the light. And I don't know if like, you know, my own running will ever be that exact place. And so I. In Bobon, I really see something to aspire to, you know, and he doesn't.
- [19:13]
B
Play it cool either. We've talked about that before in this podcast. The power of just like showing your emotions. So I love. So the Pistons assistant coach said about Bobon, he comes in with hugs, with handshakes, and his hugs are a little bit different than everybody else's. He's swallows you up. That's an amazing. Like, the power, I mean, maybe not great during COVID the power of that is just like the, you know, he's giving this energy to other people that is clearly so inspiring. The other thing that I love too is that he's well known for emojis. Apparently he just sends tons of emojis to people and like, I don't know, I'm like plus or minus on emojis. But I think, like, it just for him, it really gets at his enthusiasm.
- [19:44]
A
Well, and it gets to the lonely island thing that we were talking about, about, you know, sometimes there's a temptation, I think, for all of us to be withholding, right? To be dramatic, to be brooding, which is not a bad thing. Like, sometime that is justified. Sometimes it is brilliant, sometimes it is artistic. But much more of the time, if you just go to someone and be the bobon, you know, like, be the bobon, be the I just had sex person that's willing to laugh. Like, it can bring so much light. And another quote that I thought was most powerful perhaps to end this is that he just changes you, man. He really does. And the idea being that Boban isn't changing people to shape what he wants to see. He is changing people by giving them permission to Be what is already inside of them. Much like Ted Lasso before he is, through his egolessness, he is letting them shine. And that's so cool.
- [20:29]
B
You know that question that you often get asked on podcasts about who you would invite to dinner? And I always, I struggle with this question because I'm like, there are so many amazing people in the world. How do I choose? How do I go about this? I often say Michelle Obama because she's my answer to everything.
- [20:40]
A
This is a great answer.
- [20:41]
B
Bobon might be my new answer because I want to know where this came from. It's like, how did he, you know, how did he derive this? And I wonder. You know, he talks about his height often and people say he's comfortable as any 7, 4 foot, poor person in history has ever been in their own skin. And it's like, you know, being 7 foot 4 is not easy. You think about getting into an Uber, you think about getting on a plane. You think a kid. Yeah, being a kid. Exactly. And being, like, made fun of and all of these things. And I wonder if, like, his height has some role in that. The fact that he's always identifiable in a crowd and has to, like, you know, I feel like for me, I just want to hide if that were me. And he just seems to exude this energy despite that.
- [21:11]
A
Well, one thing about this, one thing the story talked about, is his laugh. And I listened to a clip of his laugh after it, and it is like this. Ho, ho, ho.
- [21:21]
B
So he's Santa.
- [21:22]
A
He is Santa. And it's the perfect. It's the perfect timing. And that would be another reason to have him at dinner. That big laugh that just, like, shakes the table.
- [21:29]
B
It's such a gift.
- [21:30]
A
Okay, so what we're going to do for this podcast, and we'll probably extend it just a little, is get into our six favorite workouts very briefly to give you an intro into some ideas. We'll scale them at different levels. And the basic idea here is we want to show that these harder efforts can be super fun and provide some physiological benefits.
- [21:47]
B
I have some nostalgia in these workouts. Some of them are tinged with some painful memories, but I also like giving these as a coach to athletes. It's really fun to empower athletes with these workouts that can be confidence builders.
- [21:56]
A
Yeah. And it's kind of inspired by the twelve Days of Christmas. We wanted to do something a little different because it's the Christmas episode.
- [22:00]
B
The six days of Christmas.
- [22:01]
A
Exactly.
- [22:01]
B
The six workouts of Christmas. Yeah.
- [22:03]
A
Yeah. Just don't do them all in a row?
- [22:04]
B
Yeah. Yeah, please.
- [22:04]
A
You want to take the first workout?
- [22:05]
B
Sure. So my. Okay, this is probably my favorite workout of all time is diagonals. So finding a soccer field, finding any janky field you can find that has a goal line or has, like, just an open space. So essentially striding the diagonals and jogging the goal lines and doing this from anywhere between five minutes to 30 minutes. I. Sometimes I've had athletes break it down into sets. So doing something like three by ten minutes of striding the diagonals, jogging the goal lines with 60 seconds standing rest. And it is one of those workouts that makes you feel like an athlete. But I also think it's amazing for working, and it depends. Like, I've had some athletes who like, push a little faster or who perhaps float the jogs a little faster. It can have wide ranges in working your LT and working your critical velocity.
- [22:48]
A
Yeah, I love how versatile this workout is, and it's one of my favorites that, that, that you really focus on. I mean, there's a reason that you see these diagonals in East African training camps where they're all. They'll stride a little bit faster on the diagonals and then really jog the. The goal lines. But you can do any different type of pace. And so maybe if you're starting out, think about doing like a 5K effort on the, on the strides and then on the in betweens. Just keep it very easy. But as you develop, you can develop speed, endurance by going a little bit faster. You can do, like, lactate clearance by going a little bit slower. It's this ultimate all in one workout. Um, and just keeping it on the very short end at five minutes is a great intro workout. If you're new to this, doing this 30 minutes can be a supplemental, like, second or third workout of a week for an advanced athlete. It's this all in one, like, finding your inner athlete, finding your field hockey player.
- [23:37]
B
Well, it's funny because I did this workout a lot in the early mornings as a medical student on Stanford's campus. And I was coming off of, like, you know, playing collegiately and just missing that team element of it. And I feel like it brought me back to those roots. But I've also done it on really weird fields. So, like, fields that have these like, like slopes and divots, and I'm like, how are, like, soccer, lacrosse players, field hockey players even allowed to play on this field? It seems unsafe. And so those ones have turned into slight hill workouts because, like, I might have a hill an Uphill on one diagonal and a downhill on another diagonal. And so like, you know, mix it up, make it fun.
- [24:07]
A
I remember watching you do this at Stanford with those big broccoli looking trees. Um, that they were pretty remarkably broccoli.
- [24:13]
B
This field at Stanford is lined by these trees. I mean they strikingly resemble broccoli.
- [24:17]
A
Yeah, every time I see these shoes I'm like like you broccoli ass motherfuckers.
- [24:20]
B
Actually I'm like, throw some parmesan on those. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:22]
A
Um, but I remember seeing you doing it at like 5am and just being like, oh wow. You know, the, the physiology behind that is fascinating because it is so clear that you are bringing out this, this inner athlete and then you apply that same thing to your racing right around there. So great option, I think really good for any level of athlete.
- [24:40]
B
And I think last point on this too is it translate fantastically to Tron running. Because in trail running you're often, you know, you're, your speed is varied because you know, you're running on switchbacks, you're running downhills, you're changing your speed very rapidly. Um, and I think it translates great for trainers.
- [24:52]
A
Yeah, and sometimes we'll see athletes run very fast, average paces, including the recoveries. I mean I, I've seen athletes run sub 5 minute mile pace, you know.
- [25:00]
B
Within the context of the deck.
- [25:01]
A
And it just shows that there's a huge aerobic stimulus going on here too. In addition to the like musculoskeletal classic workout elements. Okay, so my first workout is the hill. Be what this is in classic formulation is 10 minute hill, 8 minute hill, 6 minute hill, 4 minute hill, 2 minute hill.
- [25:18]
B
Nice counting.
- [25:19]
A
Yeah, yeah, counting is kind of my jam. Um, and so we're. The genesis of this came from.
- [25:24]
B
And what are the recoveries there?
- [25:25]
A
Oh, just run down the hill. Um, and ideally a little bit steeper, but variable, a difficult hill. Um, this is one of the hardest workouts we ever give. Um, it was developed for Meg McKenzie, Sky Running International champion four years ago for before her sky races, where what you'll see in training is that in general the fastest runner will be the best climber. That's all seen every year at the mountain running champs. Um, but where things start to get interesting is what happens when you get ups and downs and you miss start mixing them up. Um, and that's where the hill beast comes in. It's an incredible threshold stimulus. Um, it's an incredible stimulus on your muscular strength. But perhaps most importantly the downs which aren't even the focus of the workout, the downs, are just survival. Um, it creates this, this resilience element that makes an athlete much more prepared to race. So someone like Meg will often do it anywhere from 10 to 17 days out. I mean, it can be pretty close to races. And you know, she knows after she does this workout, she's like, I am ready to go.
- [26:21]
B
I was gonna say, I give this to athletes when I know it's gonna be a good confidence builder. I'm like, you're fit. I give it to them. And what I say actually as I give this is, this will hurt smiley face.
- [26:29]
A
Yeah.
- [26:30]
B
And it's. I almost never.
- [26:31]
A
The smiley face is key.
- [26:32]
B
The smiley face is key because I feel like they realize they're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna be ready for this one. But again, it's great. I think, like, it really stokes that central governor. Like, it gets athletes ready for race day.
- [26:40]
A
Yeah. And it's just under 30 minutes or 30 minutes, minutes of threshold site type effort. And that's the type of thing that also works really well in rolling and flat. So you don't necessarily need to do this just on ups. You can do it with half recovery on flat. So 10, 8, 6, 4, 2. With five minute recovery. 4, 3, 2, 1. Um, and it's kind of an all in one power workout that, that can develop you in a lot of different directions.
- [27:01]
B
That is a great transition to my next workout, which is a power hour. I also give this with a smiley face for many athletes with a little saying, this will hurt. Um, so essentially the, the principle of this is a progression run. So starting at marathon effort and cutting down each mile, I have athletes usually end around 10 kps. Um, my instructions are finished with hands on knees.
- [27:19]
A
I love that instruction. Yeah, that is, that is like, for us as coaches, that is the ultimate like throwing a throwing and Alka Seltzer in the Coke. It's just like boom.
- [27:28]
B
And so. But it's nice because it is a little bit. I mean, athletes sometimes are daunted going into this, but the fact that it's easy at the start and then finishing hands on knees by the end, I think athletes are often excited to start cranking it down. Um, and it's a great confidence builder. So this evolved actually from my original training strategy as I was just transitioning into running where I would go out the door and run hard every day. Terrible to do that long term day after day after day. But I think there are principles of this that a, make athletes tough, but are also great for you know, boosting the rubic system and you think a central governor.
- [27:56]
A
Let's think about biking. I mean, you know, biking is all about the FTP functional threshold power, which is about an hour long. And the best way to test your FTP is to go out and go hard for an hour. But no one, it's almost impossible to do that. So something like a power hour or workouts designed similarly, whether it's the hill beast or others, doing them as super compensation stimuli once every three to six weeks can be really helpful.
- [28:15]
B
The instructions that I give to athletes too are to do this on smooth terrain. So like, you know, allow yourself, give yourself the chance to open up that stride, to run faster, to feel good occasionally. For athletes who are training for sky running races, I'll actually have them do this on technical train, but that's, it's pretty rare. The other thing this has been great for is during COVID So I think it's really important for athletes to have the feel of a race effort if they're not racing as much. For example, we've had a lot of athletes who are not racing as much due to Covid. And so I've been giving this a little bit more just to get those engines revving, to get the athletes used to that mentality of showing up for a big workout, showing up for a big day. And it's been something that I've.
- [28:47]
A
Yeah, it's the ultimate specific musculoskeletal and biomechanical stress, I think, think, you know, there's ending hands on knees in a nice extended tempo. There's no substitute for it. And I, I think a hard power hour is one of those workouts that can work if you're racing a mile more in like a base, end of a base phase, or if you're racing a hundred mile, you know, a few weeks before the race. Like it's one of those all in one workouts that puts hair on your chest or the equivalent.
- [29:13]
B
The variation that I sometimes give of this too is a power half hour starting at half marathon effort and clicking down to 5k. Um, and I give that a little bit more frequently just because it obviously doesn't require, you know, so much musculoskeletal stress and so much stimulus. But athletes love that one.
- [29:25]
A
And I love what you say about the ending, hard ending, hands on knees. Like that's something that I'm always hesitant to give as a coach and you know, through your help, have really seen the importance of that. Like athletes that I coach used to have a Little bit less predictable race results early season. Um, and what I learned is that you sometimes have to race into race.
- [29:40]
B
Shape, but you have to do that sparingly.
- [29:42]
A
Yes.
- [29:42]
B
Like, I think, like, very sparingly. I think, you know, most of these workouts are sexy workouts.
- [29:45]
A
Yeah.
- [29:45]
B
And these are workouts that you often will end hands on knees. But most workouts should feel like you can do, you know, a number of.
- [29:50]
A
And you can also do the power hour at a more controlled effort for a good marathon pace. Marathon effort stimulus. So my second workout is the tempo slash intervals combo. No fancy name for this, but essentially it's a combination workout.
- [30:03]
B
I'm thinking of combo pretzels. As soon as you said that, my brain has been stirring with me.
- [30:07]
A
I know you don't want. You gotta be careful with what are in combos. I don't really remember anything.
- [30:11]
B
I mean, it can be pretzels, and then there can be, like, pizza, cheese, peanut butter, all kinds of things.
- [30:15]
A
Okay, so forget what I'm about to say. Just go get a thing of combos and then come back and you can listen to the rest. So a classic example of this would be the long run that Hayden Hawks did last weekend. He's in a specific training walk for a big event. Um, so within the context of his long run, he did 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes around his threshold effort or a little bit easier with 5 minute float recovery. And then he finished that up with 1 minute fartle X every 5 minutes after in a context of a long run. So this is a really big workout for an athlete that's one of the best in the world.
- [30:45]
B
Well, I remember us talking about this workout and then when. The day that Hayden was going to do it, you were like, like constantly refreshing. Like, I want to see what Hayden did. I want to see what Hayden did.
- [30:52]
A
I'm so nervous right now because this is workout Tuesday for him and he has a slightly shorter version of a similar type of workout. And I'm like, when is Hayden going to upload his Strava? It's kind of like workout porn. Honestly.
- [31:02]
B
You should just add him as a close friend. But real quick, before you dive into the details of what this means, can you explain what float recovery means to people in case they may not know?
- [31:09]
A
Yeah. So float recoveries are essentially something above your easy effort on your recovery intervals. Rather than just track track jogging, where people run really slowly, or running your normal easy effort, you take it up just a little bit. The main principle behind float recoveries is that it could improve lactate threshold a little bit and improves the overall aerobic stimulus a little bit. But it's one of those training add ons. It's like the little cherry on top of the Sunday. You don't need the cherry to make it a great Sunday. Um, and maybe the classic way to think about it is steadier running. Um, so anywhere from 50k effort to a hundred k effort depending on the athlete. So Hayden was going, was dropping down to like a hundred K effort, which for him is still under, that's still.
- [31:47]
B
Really freaking like six minute pace, which.
- [31:48]
A
Is, is mind blowing. Um, and so this is based on, you know, something that you might see in Tin man elite training. So an elite training group out here in Boulder, which is you'll often see critical velocity or threshold intervals followed by faster intervals on top of that. And the way that we've really harnessed that over time is to focus on a set of intervals that is usually anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes of, of intervals and then tag onto that some sort of higher output stimulus. So the start intervals are a little bit, a little bit more relaxed. So when we're saying threshold, we generally mean around an effort you could sustain for an hour, a little more effort or a little less. So something that is sustainable. So if you're talking about 4 by 5 minutes or even 20 minute tempo, this is not something that you are ending hands on knees. Um, and then after you take a little bit of a recovery, five or 10 minutes of easy running and then you tack on higher output running. So a classic example would be the one minute efforts that Hayden was doing which were around 10K, 5K or 10K. Or you could do anything like one or two minute hills or 1, 2, 1 minute fast, 2 minutes fast, 3 minutes. Like there can be lots of different ways to do it, um, or even strides. So the idea is that you're covering your adaptation basis from the strong aerobic stimulus of the tempo intervals to the faster, higher output stimulus of the fast intervals. And by doing that, you're kind of throwing it all at your body and you give this, this adaptation stimulus that can really be productive. And so that's like some of the main things that we've like developed with our athletes over time.
- [33:09]
B
And I often give this, followed by several days of easy runnings of the body can actually adapt. It's important to, you know, allow the proper adaptation period after this. The other thing I would say too is so I've done this both running and biking, it didn't work out like this. And you tend to look forward to those one minute efforts after doing 15, 10 and 5, which feel they, those can feel long. Like the one minute efforts. I'm like, this is exciting. I got some fun coming up.
- [33:27]
A
And the 15, 10, 5 is like Hayden Hawks level. In the long run, this can also be scaled down to something much simpler, like 4 by 3 minutes at like a more relaxed effort with a, with like 90 seconds recovery. And then following that up with 4 by 1 minutes faster, 4 by 1 minute hills faster. Um, you know, essentially keeping the really fast or really. Or the slightly harder stimuli shorter and less exhausting on top of the aerobic stimulus can kind of supercharge both stimuli. And that's, you know, something we've really harnessed over time. You want to get to your next workout?
- [33:57]
B
Sure. So my final workout is screw tighteners. So this actually evolved from my track day is something that I loved. So the, the principle is 8 to 12 by 90 seconds, where you've run the first 60 seconds at a more controlled effort. So for athletes can be range between 5k to 10k effort and the last 30 seconds you're cutting down, thinking about rocking and rolling 5k to 3k effort plus with 90 seconds rest between all of them.
- [34:19]
A
So essentially progressing within the interval.
- [34:21]
B
Exactly. So this actually evolved from doing 6 hundreds on the track with 400 more controlled and then 200 letting it rip. And that was one of my favorite athletes or my favorite runs as a track athlete. Um, and then I've adapted it over time. Have a lot of athletes do this on smooth trails, on roads. Um, it's fun. I think for me also it's great because I go out too fast in workouts and I have a number of athletes. I think most athletes go out so fun. It's so fun. And this is a great way to keep things controlled. And again, I think, like, it's also less daunting because you're going out and you're like, okay, well I'm going to run controlled for, you know, 60 seconds. And then by the time that 60 seconds is up, you get excited for the 30 seconds. You're like, all right, it's time to.
- [34:58]
A
And it's also really empowering at the start because, you know, the whole idea of running is you're running fast and not really. It's not all effort, you know, it's not. You're saving something, which is super exciting for me when I give it, do it or give it, give it to athletes. And it doesn't have to be 90 seconds. It can be any amount of combination. It can be two minutes at that, and then you pick it up for 30 seconds or a minute. Or it can even be tempos where the 20 minutes are and then the 5 minutes are faster.
- [35:22]
B
Or for a real kick. You can do this on hills.
- [35:24]
A
Yeah.
- [35:25]
B
So you can do, you know, eight to 12 by 90 second hills with the last 30 seconds faster.
- [35:28]
A
And that, that sounds kind of brutal.
- [35:29]
B
That's got a nice burn to it. I would say that. But I often give this to athletes who are sharpening for faster races. So anywhere from like a mile to a 10k, I give it to athletes who have gone through a great running economy development. So they've really done a focus on strides, short speed work. And this is kind of like, this is like one of those like cherry on top workouts. I think it's a great workout and athletes seem to enjoy it too.
- [35:48]
A
And it can seem to work most weeks if you're the type of athlete that thrives off a little bit more, you know, relaxed starts. Like, I, I know that's one thing I've really had to work on too for you is you're like, David, don't go too fast on this workout. Like that is a bad workout. And it's something that we have to emphasize with athletes all the time. Um, awesome. And then the final workout, my workout three, I'm going to call it the three minute party.
- [36:09]
B
Three and three.
- [36:10]
A
Yeah. And so here the idea is three minute intervals can kind of be a bread and butter throughout a training cycle, throughout an athletic life, I think. Um, and all different types of things. Um, if you look at Ilya's training log, for example, you'll see a crap ton of 3 minute intervals for him, their fastest, really fast, because his marathon effort and his threshold effort are really close. But for other athletes, what we see is around three minutes is where you start to see output drop relative to effort level. So if you give an athlete a four minute interval, they're more liable to go to slow down substantially while saying it's the same effort level than they would at three. And that's a little bit, you know, inconclusive, but it's something that the research also backs up, like the research on critical power and things. So three minutes and less, but also right around there can kind of be this amazing spot of supercharged development.
- [36:58]
B
I give this to athletes a lot. You know, they're doing Spotify Unwrapped this year, which reveals like all the different songs that you listen to over the last year. I Feel like if we did a swap unwrapped, it would be 5 by 3 minute hills.
- [37:06]
A
That's so true. So 5 by 3 minute hills is perhaps like where SWAT, the genesis of SWAT, this like short stimulus where you run up the hill and then down the hill and it, it works. I mean everything from VO2 max to muscular strength, strength in your whole body. So like, if you're have never done a workout before, consider 5 by 3 minute hills.
- [37:23]
B
It's a great place to start if you're advanced. I often add 5 by 30 second flat ground shots. Exactly. And this is getting back to the combos. But it's a great way and athletes often look forward to it. But it's a great way to work that faster turnover after doing the hill stimulus.
- [37:34]
A
Yeah. And so six to ten by three minutes on like flatter or rolling terrain in the context of a run with anywhere from one to two minutes recovery is another like all in one. You can throw that workout at your body pretty consistently. And again, keeping the efforts controlled. You know, we're thinking 10k style effort with maybe progressions at the end rather than going out and racing each one. Because we don't, we don't necessarily care about VO2 max like that. For an athlete, that is not going to improve a ton as they, as they develop. But what we do care is learning to run fast, efficiently. That's where running economy develops, where running fast paces takes less energy. And that's the holy grail of running training. So three minute intervals are your friend. Anywhere from five to ten of them. And yeah, that's kind of where we went in.
- [38:16]
B
That's such a great way to wrap up. I feel like, you know, swap unwrapped. We'll end this episode on. But thank you so much for listening. Happy holidays. This is such an exciting time. Also, we've seen it be a difficult time for people too. So like, wherever you are right now, we're here for you. You're awesome.
- [38:30]
A
And if you're going through tough times right now, just know you are loved and you're in this with a lot of other people. So cut yourself and cut others a ton of slack. And you know, for us, the ultimate gift this year has been you all. This has blown us away.
- [38:42]
B
This has been a total experiment for us. Thank you for participating in our science experiment.
- [38:46]
A
Yeah. Subscribe Rate do all the other things you do with podcasts. We love you guys.
- [38:51]
B
Bye Bye.