291. The Top 40 Predictions and Hot Takes for 2026!

Summary

Some Work, All Play – Episode 291

The Top 40 Predictions and Hot Takes for 2026!

Hosts: David Roche & Megan Roche, M.D.
Date: December 30, 2025

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Episode Overview

This energetic, freewheeling episode finds David and Megan Roche diving into their listeners’ “Top 50 Hot Takes and Predictions for 2026” in the world of running and beyond. Drawing from their Patreon community, the couple explores topics both playful and serious—from training gear trends and evolving science to the hilarious and odd corners of running culture. Occasional side tangents, science tidbits, and their signature loving banter fill every segment, making for a lively celebration of community and endurance sport. The episode is perfect for runners seeking both laughs and insight on a holiday week.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Running Memes and Strava Antics (00:00–04:07)

• Elf on the Shelf–style memes fill their recent runs and Strava posts, yielding both fun and mild guilt from David after sharing a risqué "bra on a spa" post of Megan. Megan is unfazed:

  "I still think it was great. It was really fun. We spent like a whole two miles of that run just laughing and making fun of ourselves. And then I fully stripped...right above the highway for that." (01:01)

• They reflect on their different mid-run and IRL sensibilities and the joys of running brain creativity, leading to advice that David should "push it a little further" for 2026, especially with joke Instagram reels.
• Memorable moment: The couple’s open attitude about bodies and celebrating self-expression on social media.

2. Listener Hot Takes & Predictions Begin (Running Gear, Training Trends) (08:40–13:35)

• Shoe Upgrades Gone Wrong: David admits feeling silly for buying 20 pairs of the Agravic Speed Ultra 1 as new versions may be lighter—but the original pair seem to aggravate his plantar fasciitis.
• Weighted Rucking: Weight vest/running is poised to become the “heat training” of 2026. While moderate use aids bone density and muscular endurance, “too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.”

  "What we're actually seeing is...the fastest athletes, you can give them just about any training intervention and they'll perform really well..." (11:00–12:00)

• Being fast at running ≠ fast hiker: Hiking performance is about power, form, muscle endurance.

3. Coaching Technology and AI’s Role (15:25–18:12)

• Runna app (Strava-acquired) & AI Coaching: Useful for most runners; backlash often comes from threatened analog coaches, but the real question is how fast AI will evolve training advice.

  “If AI is going in the direction everyone says, we all need to be using it... Imagine how much the quantitative side of coaching could change…” (16:34)

• Megan celebrates being a humanities major in the AI era.

4. Trail & Ultra Scene Predictions (18:12–30:05)

• Tara Dower’s rise (and the problem of FKT’s not counting for Trail Runner of the Year).
• Hype surrounding the 2026 Hardrock women’s race and debates about "the double" (Western States + Hardrock with only 13 days apart).
• Their own expanding YouTube/Instagram content (including Megan’s possible starring role) and how sponsorships fuel creative storytelling.

  "It's not about watching myself. It was just about feeling motivated in the moment." (21:39)

• Behind-the-scenes business realities of YouTube content, sponsorship, and audience commentary.

5. Listener-Driven Hot Takes (Training Controversies, Sport Culture Shifts) (31:09–48:07)

• Broccoli shortage due to superfood fads; discussion of the bicarb, Gnomeo, and broccoli sprout pre-workout science arms race (33:21–35:02).
• Ongoing obsession with high-tech shoes/supplements; are these just for elites? Both say “no”—"treat yourself like an elite athlete" for a better experience.

  "If something makes you a little bit faster, probably even when you're not going faster, it'll just make you feel better." (50:23)

• Calisthenics (1950s-style workouts) and the diminishing returns—and injury risks—of heavy strength for non-pro runners.
• Races becoming "Frontier Airlines of races" (fees for everything) and race entry access bleakness, but David expects the market to correct itself (28:05).
• Community Trends: Prediction of indie run shops making a comeback as "clubhouses"—but both doubt it will defeat online retail realities (46:03–48:03).

6. Ultra & Trail Culture Deep Dives

• Ethos shift—from dirtbag roots to science/professionalization. David and Megan push back: new tools help all runners, boosting enjoyment and health. Marketing may exaggerate, but much works for everyone.
• FKTs as alternative to crowded races: More top athletes may chase records outside traditional events (66:12–67:58).

7. Sponsorship, Contracts & Pro Athlete Moves (56:28–57:17)

• Speculation on big signings (Will Murray, Hans Troyer, Francesco Pupi), the role of social media in contract value, and the sport’s evolving business model.

8. Social and Physical Wellbeing

• Advocating for everyone in the running community to support, volunteer, and learn from each other, whether 'elite' or 'back of pack'.

  "If you're listening to this, even if it's just using your body to get around the block, you are an elite athlete..." (44:32)

9. Serious Issues: Doping & Race Integrity (39:06–41:51)

• Prediction of a major trail/ultra doping scandal in 2026, possibly due to lax out-of-competition testing.
• Megan raises concern: aid stations could unwittingly enable substance contamination.

  "All it would take is someone just like, tapping one drop into that bottle and contaminating something... I’m like, we need to regulate this more." (40:09)

10. Favorite Lighthearted and Memorable Quotes

• [Regarding plant-based superfoods]:
  “I feel better about taking broccoli than anything else, at least." (34:39 — Megan)
• [On seeing negative Youtube comments]:
  "If it's only like 5%, it's okay." (23:32 — Megan)
• [Describing “clubhouse” for adults]:
  “I want in a running shop... this, like, fort in the woods where you go and hang out with your friends.” (46:17 — Megan)
• [On relationships and running]:
  “It's fine to have conflicting ideas with your partner, but this matters. You matter. And I think the frivolous things of life are the important things.” (68:46 — David)

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Notable, Funny, or Memorable Moments

• Rectal thermometer memes inspired by Killian Jornet's heat training paper—now widespread in trail running circles thanks to this podcast.

  “I want to get deep in his method section.” (54:36 — David, joking about research methods)

• Porta potties as political revolution:
  “Porta potties are for the people. Put that on a T-shirt.” (60:38 — Megan)
• Routine running banter about buffoonish Strava titles, brazen reels, David’s plantar woes, and Megan’s bike support at treadmill sessions.

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"Rapid Fire" Predictions — The Quick Hits (68:30–end)

• The return of "uphill threshold" and weighted-vest training — but separately, not together!
• You can get fitter than ever in your 50s, if you update your training and nutrition.
• Postpartum/pregnancy plans: Megan vetoes making these training plans due to their highly individualized needs and online drama (72:30).
• The possibility of a not-PG photo “accidentally” being posted to Strava by a pro runner, becoming "the Janet Jackson moment" of trail running. (73:21)

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Closing & Reflections

• The pair circle back to how their content aims to grow the sport, but understand that true mass growth may hinge on Netflix-level storytelling or megaplatform appearances (think Joe Rogan, “Drive to Survive,” or live Alex Honnold stunts).
• Megan and David celebrate community joy, loving the journey, and encourage listeners to “push it a little farther” — whether on Strava titles, memes, or training experiments.
• Megan:

  "We just want to bring you a little bit of joy in your lives. So to hear we're helping you and you feel that way, even in a jokey sense, means the world." (77:27)

• After 80+ rapid-fire minutes, they sign off wishing everyone a joyful, playful, experimental 2026.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-----------------------------------------| | 00:00–04:07 | Cold Open, Social Media Running Jokes | | 08:40–13:35 | Gear Hot Takes & Training Trends | | 15:25–18:12 | Coaching Apps & AI Discussion | | 18:12–30:05 | Pro Scene Predictions, YouTube, Business | | 31:09–48:07 | Listener Hot Takes Lightning Round | | 39:06–41:51 | Doping Scandals & Aid Station Safety | | 44:32 | Embracing All Runners as “Elite” | | 46:03–48:03 | Indie Run Shops, Clubhouse Nostalgia | | 54:01 | Killian’s Rectal Thermometer & Memes | | 61:18–68:16 | FKTs, Pro Contracts & Sport Growth | | 73:21–75:00 | Scandalous Strava Predictions | | 77:27–End | Reflections on Joy, Sport, & Community |

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Episode’s Essence

If you missed this one, expect a wild and insightful ride, rich in science, runner culture, practical hot takes, and the irrepressible warmth of the Roche duo. They lampoon themselves, take their listeners’ wild predictions seriously, and thread science and heart into every exchange.

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Welcome to the Stun Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[A]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday and I'm seeing Elf on the Shelf everywhere on this Tuesday.

[B]

Elf on the shelf everywhere. I don't understand where you're coming from because we don't do that at our house.

[A]

No, it's not actually Elf on the Shelf. It's all of our iterations of Elf on the shelf. We spent a whole run just being like, what can we do on what?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it was so fun.

[B]

It was one of those examples of running brain not being like real world brain because when I thought of it during the run. So the idea is this meme of saying you've heard on Elf of a shelf on Elf on a shelf. Now prepare yourself for. And then it's something that rhymes on something that rhymes. Like Dave on a cave was mine for me, actually.

[A]

You're like, Megan, it's David on a cave. It's David on a cave.

[B]

Important, important.

[A]

Very important.

[B]

But the thing I thought was so brilliant that during the run made me laugh so hard was bra on a spa where Megan took off her bra and put it on top of the hot tub. And then we posted it and I kind of felt guilty about it like 10 minutes later.

[A]

You felt guilty about it? Yeah, I still think it was great. It was really fun. We spent like a whole two miles of that run just laughing and making fun of ourselves. And then I fully stripped. So it was at your parents house in Nederland and their house is above peak to peak highway, which is not like a crazy highway, but it is a highway. And I fully stripped in the highway, like right above the highway for that.

[B]

And it was like 20 degrees outside.

[A]

It was cold. How'd it feel? It was. Oh, it felt great.

[B]

Refreshing.

[A]

Felt really refreshing. And then we asked people on Strava to guess what it was and someone actually, like people were coming up with better things than we had thought of, which were not actually the answer. And did you see someone had sneakers on streakers?

[B]

That's pretty good.

[A]

That's pretty good. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But I. I felt guilty about it. So you didn't?

[A]

No, not at all.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was fun. It was fun.

[B]

I was like, am I? You're like posting pornography of my wife.

[A]

I was. You couldn't see anything. Just my back.

[B]

You're back. And also we celebrate all bodies. Like every part of the human body is beautiful. They shouldn't be stigmatized. And that's why I want to post it On Instagram main.

[A]

You can. I don't care. I can. Well, I have, like, a sports bra tan, too. It just kind of looks like I'm wearing a sports bra, but it's not really a sports bra. I don't have a sports bra tan in December, but it's there.

[B]

This is my resolution for 2026 is to post more Megan naked photos so I can get followers on Instagram.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's business.

[B]

Yeah, it is. It's a type of business, that's for sure.

[A]

That's very true. It's a type of business. Okay. So I did this, and then I took it. So we had Dave on a cave for you. We had bra on a spa for me, and I wanted to post hot hubby on a hot tubby, but you wouldn't let me.

[B]

I said that was too cringe even for me.

[A]

Yeah, I got like, a Zoolander photo of you, and it was great.

[B]

It was terrible. But I really, really need to understand that my brain during runs is so different than it outside of runs. And I've realized this with Strava titles. I always try to ask you generally if Strava tit. Okay. And for some reason, you enabled me in this situation. And, Megan, don't do that. I need. I need guardrails.

[A]

I feel like there's two categories of Strava titles that you come up with mid run. One of them is something that is just, like, a little bit lewd and pretty ridiculous. And then the other one is something that you think is, like, hilarious, and you're like, maybe it's not actually funny, but I feel like a lot of those ones are actually funny.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Do you think I should go farther in 2026?

[A]

I think you should push it a little further and see what happens.

[B]

I like it. In fact, last week I posted an Instagram reel that was a jokey reel about all of the shoes. I got the ASU ones. We talked about this on the podcast, like, the idea, and it went off really, really well. People loved it.

[A]

It was hilarious. It was you staring into Ollie's baby crib of all of your ASU1s just hanging out there.

[B]

But then the best part is that night you said, david, I want you to do a joke Instagram every single week. I'm like, what? How did I marry such a sexy woman?

[A]

I feel like you have good powers when it comes to humor. Like, I feel like you. Five or eight second reel, that's really going to get someone, and I don't know it could be like a fun science experiment to see, see what happens.

[B]

When we met and you were on your way to med school and a PhD and all of these other things.

[A]

What's happened?

[B]

Did you ever envision the business proposition for 2026?

[A]

Should I ever envision bra on a spa? That would be my life.

[B]

We're aging by years, but hopefully going the other direction by vibes. Okay, so we have the best episode for you today. This is going to be a fun one. So, because we're going to do maybe 50 hot takes and predictions for 2026, all from our listeners on Patreon. They're on every topic. Some are very serious and some are not. Buckle up. This is going to be a lot of fun.

[A]

I'm excited for this. People on Patreon sent good ones in. Yeah.

[B]

A lot of them challenged me in ways that are really intellectual, actually, like pushing me on my preconceived notions. It was an opportunity for listeners to essentially call me on my bullshit, I think.

[A]

Or maybe you're just seeing those, like, subtle undertones everywhere. You're like, they're calling me on my bull it. And they're really just like, here's a good hot day.

[B]

Yeah. And they're so fun. And our big idea is this is a holiday episode and not that many people are listening, but those that do. Let's give you a gift where you can take this out on your run and just get a kick out of each one. Go in and out and have fun with it.

[A]

In fact, this morning actually, we had 10 of the best science articles from this year on our outline. And that is coming next week. It was almost too good for this week. I was like, I feel like if we're going to combine science and and hot takes, it's like pushing all the goodness into one podcast episode.

[B]

Yeah. So before we get to hot takes and predictions, a quick promo for the feed. There's an insane deal going on right now where you get 20% cash back for every purchase. So, like absolutely out of this world. Go to the feed.com swap swap. Just putting in your email there. If you're a first time customer, you get 40% off. In addition to the 20% back, you can basically get this stuff for free. So if you haven't done it yet, now is the time to put your email in and get that discount.

[A]

Isn't the 20% back 20.26 for in honor of 2026? I feel like you have to buy enough stuff where the 0.26 matters. That is the goal for the new.

[B]

Year, which we do.

[A]

We really do.

[B]

I should go into our account and see just how much we've purchased from the feed.

[A]

It's kind of scary, and we do. So sometimes we're just like, we need this now. Purchase it.

[B]

And so great for us, because their warehouse is a few miles away in Colorado, so it does arrive really fast. But maybe the coolest thing about how the feed has evolved this year is their shipping has become almost instant, and it's awesome to see how they've evolved with the times and their robots have stepped up the game. And, yeah, I can't wait to see where they go. And so the two things we wanted to promo this week that we love, the first one is the Feed Lab whey protein. The chocolate flavor is so freaking good.

[A]

And it's actually mixable whey protein. I feel like I've just gotten used to drinking clumps, and this stuff is.

[B]

Mixable, and it's the least expensive on the market by far. The Feed Lab chocolate whey protein routine, you cannot go wrong. And in fact, my ultimate endorsement for it, which I was a little uncomfortable saying on here, but, oh, man. Is I was a little bit concerned that they might have accidentally slipped, like, a performance enhancer in it because I felt so good off it. So when I got drug tested at javelina, I was very happy because I was like, this stuff makes me feel so good. Maybe it's not just whey protein. Thankfully, I trust the feed, and it was great. Can I say that on here?

[A]

I think it's fine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's a holiday episode. They're giving you 20.26% back.

[B]

Megan's always hesitant whenever I save my deepest, darkest fears. Random anxieties like that. But the second thing we wanted to promo is something you tried this week, which is Hyper Light Fuel. They sponsor Hans Troyer, who uses this almost exclusively in his races to incredible success. This stuff works in the field, and you tried it on your bikes, and.

[A]

It'S designed to be higher carbs. So the mix is designed to be 400 calories per 16 ounces, and they have a thousand milligrams of sodium in there. And I was like, I want to take some gel still. Like, I'm just like, a gel girly. And so I tried out a quarter to a half scoop of it, and I actually really liked it. Like, the taste was good.

[B]

How does it mix?

[A]

Very easily. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that just like, at first I was like, does this Even taste like anything. I was like, if I want, if I'm gonna have something neutral, I kind of want to be hit over the head with like watermelon taste, not the neutral taste. I was like, come on, Hyperlite, make it stronger. But as I got to like the bottom of the bottle, I. It had a good taste to it.

[B]

I got to meet them at Run Rabbit Run where Hans was there with Ryan Rath and the whole team. They're great people too. A small business. So if you buy Hyperlite, you are supporting a wonderful company. So let's go support them right now. Give them a big boost before the end of the year on the feed. So go to thefeed.com swap and it's.

[A]

Kind of fun to play around with like titrating different doses for whatever you want in terms of like how many. How many gels you want to consume with it. And for me it was nice to have like a slightly less concentrated mix.

[B]

Awesome. So do you want to do this?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

Let's rock it.

[A]

Does it take time?

[B]

Yeah, they're numbered, but they're not ordered, so you should.

[A]

Can we commit to all 50?

[B]

I don't know about that.

[A]

What? It's going to really make us rapid fire.

[B]

We'll see how many digressions we take, I guess.

[A]

We're already nine minutes in this podcast episode.

[B]

It was really important to talk about our at home pornography. So number one, hottest take, the aggravik speed ultra two next production run will be lighter than the version one and you're going to feel silly for buying 20 pairs of the version one.

[A]

This is a great hot take. Do you already feel silly for buying 20 pairs of the the version one?

[B]

Yeah. You're going to shit on, aren't you?

[A]

Do you have plantar fasciitis right now? Do you think it's linked to the AgroBAC Speed Ultra One?

[B]

So I talked about this after the javelina episode. I got severe heel pain during that race and I just assumed this happens in hundreds. It's not going to be a big deal. It lingered for a while. It kind of went away as I figured out I needed to pound it into submission and all this other stuff.

[A]

You need to wear your sexy ass night splint.

[B]

Yeah. But it's come back with a vengeance recently and it is definitely aggravated more in the version of these shoes that I hoarded than it is in other shoes. So, like, I probably deserve this, don't I?

[A]

It's kind of wild that as soon as you ordered the 20 pairs. It came back with abundance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What shoe are you wearing now?

[B]

Just a mix of all different types.

[A]

Yeah. It feels best in super shoes, right? I mean, that's what you're like. It feels best in super shoes. I'm wearing super shoes for seven runs a week.

[B]

Yeah. Puma sent a lot of shoes, and I'm loving the upcoming versions of their shoes. I don't want to talk about them too much until they come on the market because I want to test them more. But lots of good shoes. Right now, my heel really fucking hurts at different times, and plantar fasciitis is the worst thing imaginable.

[A]

Okay, you need to get Shockwave. I've been literally. I've been this, like, talking head for the last four days. I'm like, get shockwave. Get shockwave. Get shockwave. And it helps a ton.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Shockwave therapy seems like the one modality that works for most soft tissue injuries at this point.

[A]

I'm like, shockwave anything.

[B]

Shockwave anything.

[A]

They actually use it for erectile dysfunction.

[B]

Boom, boom.

[A]

Yeah. You can try it on anything.

[B]

You can use that. Or our upcoming Instagram post.

[A]

Of me or you.

[B]

Oh, you only. No, me goes the other way. Not good. Okay, number two, weighted rucking. So weight vest training is to 2026 what heat training was to 2025. All the elites are doing it. Some of them are overdoing it, and those who overdo it end up strong but slow and get dusted at competitive races. Pulling us back to the maxim that too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

[A]

I agree with this 100%.

[B]

What a good hot take.

[A]

That's a great hot take. I actually think you could almost play Mad Libs with that and insert almost anything. That is the rage right now. And someone is going to take it to the maximum level, like carbs or bicarb or hydration or sodium intake, and someone is going to consume 4,000, you know, milligrams of sodium an hour. And at any level, all of these things taken to the extreme are not great.

[B]

You can go too high on carbs. I refuse to believe it. Yeah, I'm like the king of going.

[A]

Too far on literally everything, including. We talked about this last week. Centrum Kids Gummies.

[B]

Yeah, I've dialed it back to five.

[A]

Five from ten. We'll get you down to two next week.

[B]

Yeah, and I love this from a pure training theory perspective, because I was one of the ones that overdid it on heat, most likely before Western states, and it's a complicated narrative there because as I traced my performance at Leadville back to the interventions preceding it, it seems in my head it's like, oh, well, I didn't do that much training between Western states and Leadville. Where did that fitness come from? The reality is that it might partially have come from the heat training I did in the build to Western states. So I think this does point out, not overdoing it is key, but getting that stimulus is important. And we just talked about a study a few weeks ago that you can get the heat acclimation stimulus from passive heat and that might end up being the middle ground. Here's mostly passive heat, some active just from light overdressing. And probably we're going to see similar things on weight vest training. Weight vests aren't anything new. I don't think it's really changing the game. I think what we're actually seeing is the fastest athletes. You can give them just about any training intervention and they'll perform really well if they're fast and strong.

[A]

I do think it's helpful for bone density building for older athletes. Like, there's been some interesting studies and also some interesting studies that even have refuted those gains recently. And so a lot of different science and different scientific conclusions. Are you gonna put on a weight vest? You actually did this weekend, you forgot your ankle weights up in the mountains and you found a weight vest hanging out in our car and you're like, I'm gonna just use this.

[B]

You know, I don't do any races invol.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if. If I did UTMB and in for coaching a hundred mile mountain races in particular. Yes. Um, but am I personally gonna do it? No. I don't have enough training time to add all these little wrinkles. Like, I need to use every second. I got to just get faster, build aerobic economy, things like that.

[A]

I also do think it weights the body. Like, I think your plantar fasciitis might get worse with weighted rugging.

[B]

It's basically impossible that it gets worse.

[A]

Actually, I think this year I had like a very mild, like a few weeks of very mild hip pain. And I think it was from baby wearing. I was wearing Ollie in like, our backpack that, like, wrapped around my waist and I think it was overloading my hip because every time I wear that thing now it comes back.

[B]

Okay, well, this morning you carried both kids down the stairs at once.

[A]

Yeah, but with. No, it was by my own accord. It had no weighted pack element.

[B]

Ah, yes, yes, yes. The consensuality of the pack plays a role here. Okay, number three, hot take. Being a faster runner doesn't mean you'll be the faster hiker, especially on steep terrain.

[A]

I agree on this. I think a lot of hiking is form and strength and efficiency. I do think that in general fitness is fitness. And you know, for a lot of people, improving fitness is like the fastest way to be a stronger hiker. But I think at some point that maxes out.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's fitness like running, economy plus muscular endurance. The the catch all term. Nowadays muscular endurance is one can be targeted by weight vest. It can also be targeted by uphill running, hill repeats, uphill, treadmill, biking, stairmill, elliptical, all these different things. And if you give me a really fast athlete and they're committed to it, you can almost always make them into the best hikers because hiking is low output compared to to running. And I think that's the part that people sometimes miss is anyone who is good at high output activities that would include cycling. A cyclist could be a great hiker and is used to the biomechanical motion of it. They can be great at it. It's just. And it takes less time because the output is the metric that takes the most time to build.

[A]

We should have a hiking competition at some point. It's like speed walking, but for ultras. And be like, you're only allowed to hike in this race. Okay. Do you know who, who I think could win?

[B]

Who?

[A]

Anna Gibson. Yeah. I feel like combine her, like we throw her into any sport and she goes to the Olympics. And it's like I feel like if we gave her the fitness of, you know, purely going uphill, plus the form demands of hiking that she could learn and pick up very easily. She'd crush it.

[B]

And that's where it comes down to is form. Right. Like power is the key element here. And sometimes you can see very fast athletes that are not powerful and those athletes won't be good hikers. Um, but if you commit to the form, like the leaning forward, driving your legs, and then adapt to it over just a couple of weeks, you can probably be a good hiker. So I love this hot take, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Okay, next one. Runna is a good app. This is the coaching app that people use that uses some A.I. i think actually if you take the time to customize all the options. Is it better than a human coach? No, of course not. But it's good enough for the majority of runners and even better if you know how to Fiddle with it.

[A]

How to fiddle with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sounds like you're doing interesting things to run a. Oh, man. So runner's really gonna give you some good workouts.

[B]

With a history of running coaching, you probably shouldn't. I mean, fiddling anything.

[A]

That's nice. I can fiddle my running coat. I'm like, give me more, give me more. The rare exception, the rare case.

[B]

Yeah. I love these types of things. I think that the pushback against coaching apps is usually coming from players with established positions within the space who feel threatened. I think if you deliver a better product, it'll be good in the marketplace to have competitors that push you and allow for a broader base, like a bigger funnel at the top. Because the bigger the funnel is at the top, the more people that might go for premium options later. So I love these types of apps. I haven't personally experienced, like, runa, like, the joys of runa, but it seems like it would be pretty darn easy to program one of these.

[A]

Well, Agreed. How do you think Strava's acquisition of runa is going to change things? Do you think it's going to elevate it? Do you think it's going to make it so that it's like, you know, it delays some of the, like, possible.

[B]

Progression on that more money is a good thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I imagine Run has already progressed because these are technological innovations, and in those cases, you need a lot of capital to take the next step and to incorporate all the emerging technology. And if AI is going in the direction that everyone says it is over the next few years, we all need to be using it. Even coaches who are more analog like we are. And I haven't been using it as much as I should. Like, I used to have it always open on my screen and try to ask questions and just get used to engaging with the chatbots. And now it's like, like, yeah, I mean, the chatbots are just the tip of the iceberg. What I should actually be doing is using it to code. Andrej Karpathy wrote an incredible thread this week where he's one of the top AI researchers, but also one of the top coders of all time. That's how he's known. Is one of the most brilliant people who's ever lived. And he says that he feels so far behind because the advancements that are happening, you essentially need to be using 24 agents at any given time to understand how to be at the time the top end of coding. And it's like, shit, if that world is going in that direction. Imagine how much the quantitative side of coaching could change over the next few years.

[A]

Well, it's wild. I feel like I went through this, like three year period in my life where I was like, damn, I wish I went into coding. Like, I wish I had more of a background on it. And now I'm like, yes, I really like running coaching and like the human to human interaction element of it. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, seriously, all the humanities majors out there that are listening to this podcast.

[A]

Like, we scored right now.

[B]

Celebrate yourself.

[A]

We scored big.

[B]

It's gonna be way harder to replace you than it will those STEM majors in some cases. Okay, next one prediction. Tara Dower beats Courtney and Katie in Hard Rock, finally claiming troll runner of the year after multiple years of smashing course records and beating male fkts.

[A]

I fucking love this one. And of course, Tara Dower. I feel like it's challenging. I understand why FKTs are not included on trail Runner of the year considerations, but had they been, man, Tara would really rack up a lot of points.

[B]

Yeah. Every year. Last year, Appalachian Trail this year, Long Trail next year. Yeah. And we've gotten a lot of predictions in this call on Patreon about Hard Rock. The women's race at Hard Rock is already stirring the pot in ways that are immensely exciting for, you know, the future of the sport. That that women's race has more hype around it than any other race, I would say, on the calendar, which is so exciting.

[A]

And I feel like I've heard a lot of conversations, though, about Tara potentially doing the double based off of Courtney doing the double back in 2022 or 2022.

[B]

The double of western states in Hard Rock.

[A]

Yes. And back when Courtney did it, there was 20 days separating Western states and Hard Rock, and that has now been accelerated forward to 13 days. I think a lot of people don't realize that. They just think about the history and that has been condensed into 13 days. And so I'm curious and, you know, I'm obviously coaching Tara, so I'm not going to give any answers here, but just curious, you know, how that evolves and that decision making and we'll know with time.

[B]

Do you want to break any news on the swap podcast?

[A]

No. Nope. That is for Tara to do. Nope. But I'm just saying 13 days is not a lot of time.

[B]

Megan, we got to break the news.

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

That's how the listeners come in. Number six, Hot Take a Megan training video series by director Cody will lead to three times as many views as David's.

[A]

I don't Think so. Have you seen my treadmill form?

[B]

Have you seen bra on a spa?

[A]

It's only my back. When they see my front, they're like, nope. They're like, she's got runner cleavage.

[B]

You're perfect just the way you are. I seriously want Megan to be a much bigger part of these videos. Um, and it's. It's pulling teeth to get Megan to put herself on camera, which I understand, but we gotta do it, Megan. This year we go all in.

[A]

Okay, I'll do it. I just wanna do it in the context of racing. I understand racing or just is just like an intensely personal experience for me. And I go just kind of primal. And I feel like if I had a video camera on me, I could not go primal.

[B]

But it'll be so fun to watch, like years from now or even when you're motivated. In training. Like yesterday, I did a huge treadmill threshold workout. And after I finished the workout, 10 by 1 mile. 10 by 1 mile with 1 minute recovery.

[A]

Yeah, those were short recoveries.

[B]

I was a Norwegian through and through lactate control. In fact, the next reel I want to do, aside from a plantar fasciitis reel, which you've kind of vetoed, you.

[A]

Actually desperately wanted me to film this reel of you yesterday, but I was sitting next to you on the bike and I was like, I can't get off.

[B]

Okay. But the reel I want to film is me being like, okay, guys, lots of misconceptions about Norwegian training. Here's how you actually do it. And then it just cuts to me running on the treadmill, being like, I feel the blood of the Vikings coursing through my face.

[A]

Then you also are going to be like, and socialize healthcare.

[B]

I decided to veto that.

[A]

Why?

[B]

It's too much of a, like, explanation.

[A]

I think it's hilarious.

[B]

I think Instagram responds quickly to, like, one beat jokes, especially when you're not a comedian.

[A]

Like, it's a two beat joke. That's fair.

[B]

Yeah, one beat joke. But what was I talking about?

[A]

Me on the bike next to you.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So after, after that workout, I had 20 minutes of a cool down at steady paces.

[A]

I feel like you were just sitting there waiting for me and you're like, megan's gonna film me now on the treadmill. I saw you doing, like, so different stretches. And I'm like, he's waiting for me to be done on a bike so he can get a video of himself.

[B]

You weren't going to get off. You don't care enough about the Influencing game. Um, but I watched a little bit of Cody's Leadville documentary and, you know, it wasn't about watching myself. It was just about feeling motivated in the moment. So that's why I think you should do these race videos, because sometimes it gets you through a 20 minute cool down.

[A]

I got a one minute reel from Quad Dipsy on my Instagram and that is perfect.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, you made it for me. You're my content manager. But I'm excited for YouTube videos this year. And actually Singletrack released an episode this week and the title was, I think How David roach has changed YouTube and pretty bold title.

[B]

Yeah, when I saw that title pop up, I was like, that's cool. But also respect. Very interesting. Right. Because this is all director Cody. And I can't emphasize enough that as much as we love this platform and we like being storytellers, he's the artist here and it's really cool what can happen in the modern age when just put your art in front of people's eyes and see what comes out of it. And I also think the story of YouTube is the story of the feed. And one reason to support them is they just gave us not a blank check, but like money for each video to pay Cody and said, let your freak flag fly. And that's why I think those videos resonated. So we're really going to be leaning into it and have more sponsorship this year from Wahoo and Janji. And so that's going to be a really fun combo.

[A]

Yeah, I saw actually on the single track, YouTube, there's a lot of questions about how is Cody being paid? Like, what are the financials of that? We should just break it down. Not like, you know, I don't know if like these contracts allow us to do that, but like, give it on broad specs just so that people out there making YouTube videos understand. It's kind of interesting too. Like, businesses to me is fascinating. I always love this stuff.

[B]

Oh, I listen to so many business podcasts, like tech and stuff. But did you look at the comments on it?

[A]

Yeah, I did.

[B]

Why would you do that?

[A]

I don't know. I was feeling spicy this morning. I was getting ready for the hot sauce.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, but they were good. There was a few people that were like shitting on you, but that's normal. I like, buffer that into the. I'm like, if it's only like 5%, it's okay.

[B]

Don't look at any comments about me.

[A]

I actually usually never look at comments, but again, I'M like, curious about the business end of this. I was like, how can we grow in YouTube? I wanted to learn. Okay, so, yeah.

[B]

What was the best comment? Shitting on me. Come on, come on. Give it to me. Give it to me. I need it. Give it to me. I like it. I want to feel the pain.

[A]

Like, I don't understand the love. You guys language on YouTube videos. I'm like, well, suck it. You're not loved. We love you guys. Except for you.

[B]

The thing is, like, I would say I love that person.

[A]

So. Yeah, I wouldn't. It's very diverge.

[B]

Moving on. Running with my dog who pulls is the same as running downhill. Perfect for me because I live in a flat country or. Yeah, in a flat country.

[A]

Yeah. Running with a dog as potential eccentric muscle contractions.

[B]

Yeah. Getting pulled also, I imagine that would mean a tailwind could be eccentric muscle contractions maybe.

[A]

I mean, I feel like you ran an 80 mile an hour tailwind the other day. Like, that's what it takes.

[B]

Yeah. And it was knocking me over just like downhill. So I like this one.

[A]

Yeah. I worry a little bit about just kind of like some of the sheer forces that happen through your body. Like, have you seen the ones where you wrap the leash around your waist and your dog pulls from there?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I worry a little bit about, like, how does that create sheer forces on like the pelvis or the hips?

[B]

Yeah. Maybe adventure racing has something like this where people will wrap ropes around their, like slower and faster athletes to pull people along on these multiple day races. Sounds pretty cool.

[A]

Actually, on my pacing gigs in the future, I should just have rope attached to you so you're the one racing up facing behind you.

[B]

I was thinking more that I just get a lasso and put it around Will Murray.

[A]

Yeah, that'd be so fun.

[B]

Like Francesco Poy or something like that. That'd be the way for me to keep up. Um, but this reminds me a little bit of sprint training. So high class sprint training, at least back when I was well versed in, that involved various methods to improve your turnover without, you know, having to improve your output because you really can't. And then to train the nervous system. So there a number of different ways to do it, but the way I really like to do it was, you know, tailwind or slight downhill and getting really moving on that. And that can be something you apply across the board, is if you're doing your strides and you want to get to a little bit faster pace, doing it on a slight downhill sometimes can help that turnover with a little bit of extra risk. But for me, at least it's when I have trouble getting into gear. It seems to make a difference.

[A]

And it's so fun too, right?

[B]

Yeah, so fun. Okay, next one. At least for some athletes, heavy strength training actually leads to more injuries due to additional load on the joints and knock knees. Prediction. Some studies will show that in 2026 will be the year of calisthenics.

[A]

Calisthenics.

[B]

Fun word, 1950s style.

[A]

Yeah, I really like that word, actually. I feel like we need a T shirt that just says calisthenics. A throwback to the good old times, aerobics. I agree with this. I think in part because a lot of, like, athletes doing this are not doing it with, like, a strength coach or, like, in person. And so the form is all wonky and it does overload weird things. But I also think in general, just like heavy lifting sometimes when you're also doing endurance training is just a little risky.

[B]

I just think there's a good middle ground, probably like the weight vest, like the heat TR training some is good. A ton probably starts to push it. Unless you're a responder. And if you're a responder, great. But sometimes the takeaways get interpolated from the outliers to everybody else. So for me, weightlifting two times a week, a little bit heavier is fine. And really, that just amounts to squats.

[A]

Actually, it's so funny. You're like, I need to hype myself up every time I lift heavy. And you're just like, running around the house, like, my testosterone needs to be higher. And I'm like, David, you're lifting 145 pounds for a squat.

[B]

Correction, it's 135.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the bar plus two big plates. Um, yeah. I took a video of doing squats yesterday, thinking that it might be a good, funny Instagram reel at some point, but it was a little too cringe even for that.

[A]

Imagine the comments.

[B]

Imagine. Oh, my God. With my form. Yeah. And I was lifting in super trainers that had a plate. Oh, my God, the bros are coming after me. Uh, next up, a series of of comments. Trail running should be less popular. It seems impossible to sign up for races less than six months before they happen. And then it goes on, and then the next one event pricing has gotten out of control. I was looking at a local 50k and it was 160 with taxes and fees and additional fees, such as $35 for parking, $25 for the shuttle to the start, finish and $35 if you want a Pacer or just support at the aid station. Wow.

[A]

Wow. That's Southwest Airlines Frontier status right there.

[B]

That it is. Frontier Airlines of races.

[A]

It really is. It's like pay for your water cup.

[B]

Brutal. And there were even more add ons for T shirts, hats, sweatshirts and donations. Kind of tired of being nickeled and dimed. I'm sure many of these event organizers are well intentioned, but some are turning into airlines with their added fees.

[A]

They already did it. They're like, we're onto Frontier. I agree with this to some extent. Actually. It is hard to get into races and I feel like every race and their mom these days has lotteries for them.

[B]

This seems like a market based solution though, right? Like if there aren't enough races to like, like all races are filling up or they're overpriced, someone just comes in and does it better.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

This is, I'm really revealing.

[A]

You're like, we're going to transition to races in 2026. Actually it'd be terrible to put people to put on races. We're not logistically organized enough for that.

[B]

It's not our thing. But if you're out there, like, clearly races are an opportunity based on this. And so I think we're identifying a market opportunity. We're going to have private equity come into the race game and then every.

[A]

Race is going to be by UTMB in 2028. Yeah.

[B]

To be serious though, this would seem like a private equity opportunity, which is. Which was gross. Private equity makes everything worse. But if we have this big field, it's very similar to what private equity has stepped into in other areas. I was reading a story that they've bought up ice skating rinks and they're also nickel and diming in certain ways. But it's an opportunity where there's an offset in the market and it's not being filled and some capital can come in and change the game. So are we going to see. Not just buy UTMB, we're going to see buy Vanguard, buy BlackRock investors?

[A]

Honestly, probably like by Saudi Arabia. Thinking of like the cycling world.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, the virtual cycling world. My whoosh has come in and is funded.

[B]

Yeah. The investment fund has come in to almost all sports, which is.

[A]

Yeah. Kind of crazy. But not yet to trail running.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is a good thing.

[B]

It's a good thing in some ways. But also in terms, if, if all you care about is money for athletes, then you could see a world where Those types of investments would be productive.

[A]

Yeah, but it's not all we care about.

[B]

Oh, of course.

[A]

I'm like, ah. I'm like, David, what are you arguing for?

[B]

No, no, I'm not arguing. I'm just saying, you know, I think the world might change and this hot take could underscore something we have to be prepared for that goes far beyond a well meaning player like utmb. And so keep your eyes open. This could be an interesting time to be alive.

[A]

Oh, it's exciting.

[B]

Yeah. Next one afternoon long run is superior because you're not going to do anything for the rest of the day no matter what time you go.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

I hate that one so much.

[A]

You know, it's probably like my productivity work wise really wanes at 4:00'. Clock. And if I really wanted to max out all of my work for the day, I feel like running at 4 would be great for that. But you know what, I just feel so much better running in the morning.

[B]

That's a college ass hot take.

[A]

That's my.

[B]

In fact, this listener is a elite athlete who just graduated last year and I told them as such, eventually they'll see the air in those ways. But I understand, like everyone's different and probably body rhythms and, and how you're, you know, grow over time change how you adapt to these things.

[A]

I do notice though that people that consistently run in the afternoons and evenings often do have more missed runs just because life gets in the way, motivation gets in the way, and meeting runs long and it's like hard to then get out the door.

[B]

Well, I've coached this athlete, she's never missed a run. Exception to the rule. Okay, that was just 10 out of 50. How are we gonna do this?

[A]

Rapid fire?

[B]

Okay. I don't know.

[A]

I think we can do this. All right, maybe we, maybe we readjust a bit little like 30 or 40.

[B]

We'll see. Maybe the rest. Come on, Patreon. That might be a good.

[A]

Some of these are shorter too.

[B]

Okay. And before we do that though, a promo that's really important here because there's a massive sale on the Wahoo Kicker Run. So right now, the treadmill that we swear by that we have put like tens of thousands, not tens of thousands, thousands of miles in some very, very fast. And it hasn't broken down once. The Wahoo Kicker run is on sale for the next week or so. 25% off sale for us listeners. We'll link to it in the show notes. And it's just like a wonderful tool. I look forward to using it so much.

[A]

I really do. And you should read this listener. Actually, I'll just read it because I feel like this underscores to me, like, you know, when you're looking at other treadmill models, to me, like, it's an obvious choice. The kicker.

[B]

I think this is a little bit long, don't you think?

[A]

You're like, we don't have time for this. Okay, I'll summarize it. How about that? Okay, so this listener currently has a peloton treadmill that they're looking to get rid of. And they were asking for what should they replace it with, a Nordic trend track or a kicker? And they're like, because the kicker is more extensive, you need to be especially convincing as to why we should buy the kicker.

[B]

Okay. The answer is that Nordic tracks all break and are so much less valuable over time.

[A]

They break so fast.

[B]

And. And maybe this is just our experience, but I broke the actual landing pad of the NordicTrack 2450. We had three different times, and it just was totally useless by, like a month in. And even. Even when we first got it, it was not useful at fast paces. And I think not being useful at fast paces is a good analogy for how it's going to handle even slow paces with heavy use. And so that difference, it just totally changes how much I train because I hated that piece of crap, even though I grew to love it almost in, like, what's the whatever. When the prisoners start to love their.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I know exactly what I was talking about.

[B]

It felt like that almost with my relationship.

[A]

Well, now it's nice because it's got cracks in it from when you've broken it. And so I feel like it's perfectly orient to be a couch. Yeah, it's got, like two different cracks in it. And so, yeah, it's got couch cushions at this point.

[B]

Yeah. So go check out The Wahoo link. 25% off now, and I think it'll just last for a week. So if you're on the fence, now's the time to do it. We don't know when these sales will start. Again, back to hot takes and predictions.

[A]

Let's start.

[B]

Number 11. There's going to be a broccoli shortage due to people thinking, if sprouts can do a lot, this is Gnomeo and other broccoli sprout options. Broccoli can do a little. Right, Right. All about the incremental gains. So the grocery stores put bicarb next to the empty bin of broccoli that's amazing.

[A]

Actually. The grocery store that we go to up in the mountains just has ketone IQ at checkout. Yeah. I'm like, what are they doing?

[B]

And they have nothing else.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I'm confused how ketone IQ even got into those places.

[A]

Yeah. Where is it coming from?

[B]

Good marketing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And probably, like, interaction with, like, the Joe Rogan podcast.

[A]

We should see what happens when we just put a little bit of bicarb next to the ketone IQ and then a little bit of Gnomeo. And it's like, you got to choose.

[B]

1, 1, and it probably be good for, like, high altitude skiing and performance and things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I like that. But Gnomeo seems like it is really making a difference for high, high intensity activity. And I think the Gnomeo bicarb interaction is something we're really gonna discover more of in the future. So before my 10 by 1 mile workout yesterday, to embrace my full inner Norwegian, I took Gnomeo rather than bicarb. And because I.

[A]

You didn't tell me that.

[B]

Well, I taken bicarb two times already that week and I never want to overdo that. And so it felt really good and I was able to recover super fast. And yeah. So I. I do like the direction this is going, but I doubt people are gonna be going for broccoli because you need that concentrated super broccoli sprout.

[A]

Do you think I should get on that broccoli game?

[B]

I think so. I think it's worth.

[A]

Do you think so? Yeah. I feel better about taking broccoli than anything else, at least.

[B]

Same. Same. I think it's a. A really good option for people that are on the fence about the high sodium loading of sodium bicarbonate. It feels a little more natural. And you taste it and you're like, oh, this feels like a health shot more than it feels like a performance shot.

[A]

I've tried it once or twice and like the taste I actually kind of like. The first time I took it out, I was like, I don't know. And the second time I was like, gimme those broccoli sprouts.

[B]

Get on it, get on it. Uh, number 12. Triathletes build the strongest aerobic bases in training and are perhaps the most versatile endurance athletes.

[A]

Hmm. Curious your take on that. I do think, like, building your aerobic base is good. I just feel like that gets saturated at the level in which triathletes are doing it and maybe compromise for the sake of speed. Yeah.

[B]

More is not more. And I think, think sometimes people just assume all hours are created Equally like, one hour of swimming is equal to one hour running, one hour of biking. That's not the way it works at all. Like, the aerobic system is so much more nonlinear. So triathletes are strong for sure, but I think a runner that might be training so much less, like a third of the volume, might be just as strong aerobically and able to cross over to those other sports incredibly well with just familiarity in the process. So the aerobic system much more complicated, I think, than an hours in, hours out framework.

[A]

I also think it's complicated to take an athlete that has done a very high hours in, hours out framework framework, and then take them and pare them down to try to get them faster as runners. Like, we've seen this example in Gwen Jorgensen. Like, you know, she tried to come over to win. Her statement was to win Olympic gold in the marathon. And I think she was training off this massive triathlon base and became very challenging to translate that.

[B]

Yeah. Her making that big proclamation.

[A]

Yeah, I fucking loved it.

[B]

It's so cool. And. But it reminds me a little bit of my. My goal is to win Western States proclamation. Because my guess is what she meant by that is that's the shot I'm taking. Even though I know it's like a one in a million shot. Like, it's a very long shot. And that's how I tried to convey the Western states thing. And some people did not take it that way. And I'm sure they were commenting on the single track video.

[A]

I did not see that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But also, like, I think you can win Western states. No, no. This is like hard data, man. Look at your Leadville times.

[B]

Like Megan. All I can do, apparently, is give away golden tickets. Anyone who gives away a golden ticket clearly does not have the fire to do when they want to do it to actually win one of these competitive races. There are actual Michael Jordan competitors out there, and I'm just the Steve Kerr backup player.

[A]

Well, Steve Kerr can sometimes win championships. I'm just saying, as a coach.

[B]

Yeah. Multiple Western states wins for swap as coaches. But I don't think the athlete is coming from me anytime soon. But you know who does have a fire in the family?

[A]

Who?

[B]

You.

[A]

Well, I got fire with heart issues, so we'll get back to that one. Western states. I would love to run Western states, but that seems like a lot of.

[B]

Cardiac demand fire with. I like that. Okay. 13. Des Linden runs Western States under a goose sponsorship. Hot take. She breaks the master's course record, finishing eighth in 16:49:37.

[A]

I like how specific this is. Wild.

[B]

I feel like this is a prophecy at this point rather than a prediction. So we'll see Des Linden coming into trails. Very exciting. I think she was supposed to do Tunnel hill for the 50 miler.

[A]

I think she was also supposed to do javelina. Where is she? Come on, dez.

[B]

Yeah, let's see. Can't wait to see what she does. I imagine Black Canyon coming up will have some roadrunners transitioning into trails like it always does. I think we're going to see that world explode in coming years because the roadrunner speed, as long as they can run downhills, will translate, as we always say. But the problem is a lot of times people come over without understanding the demands of downhills. And so they're coaching themselves or being coached as if it's um, you know, on. There's two different options. On one hand they're being coached like it's a road marathon. Which that alone doesn't work. Like unless you're a naturally gifted downhill trail runner. You need to practice that muscle right hand. Or on the other hand, they're being coached like ultra runners. So they lose their advantage because they're no longer fast. Where, you know, some ultra training systems just make people do forever runs. And if you give someone like Christian Allen, let's say like imagine he was doing an ultra. This athlete we coach who just ran a 209 marathon marathon, he would run 45 miles in four hours. You give him a four hour long run, that guy is not gonna get better. He's gonna get worse.

[A]

It's kind of wild to think about that giving. Would you ever give Christian Allen a four hour long run?

[B]

I don't see why you would.

[A]

No. Yeah.

[B]

What would the point be?

[A]

And I mean if you. And if he was gonna go to the mountains, you would just give it by distance anyways.

[B]

You can just go on a long bike. I mean, if you really want to get a really long seamless, just go on the bike and do epic shit on that. Okay. Number 14. At least one major doping scandal in the trail ultra running world. That's the prediction. Not saying I want this to happen, but sadly I think it will.

[A]

I think it will too, actually. I mean it kind of has happened each year for the last few years.

[B]

In the hard part is there's no out of competition testing really. Thus the tests happen at races. So theoretically, if you're catching someone, it's either an intelligence test on one side where every athlete knows they're getting tested. And so it would have to be some educational gap. That gap doesn't really exist anymore. It would have to be inadvertent where the athlete doesn't think, think they're doing anything wrong. And that's why I'm really compassionate about all of these situations because I'm like, no athlete in their right mind would ever actually be in this situation unless it was mistake. That's why like the Stan Anger moond situation where, you know, he's like, I have no fucking clue how this happened and I didn't do anything wrong. I'm compassionate to that because he would never put himself in a situation where he would be like that. You would assume unless there's just some major weird, weird outcome. And that's possible. But I just always want compassion to come first.

[A]

Okay, here's actually a personal hot take that we have talked about together is you watch your javelina video and I feel like we need more regulation of aid stations around elite athletes.

[B]

Oh wait, you're bringing that up. I'm bringing this.

[A]

This is real spicy.

[B]

Oh my God. So I've wanted to talk about this for a while and Megan's like, nah, don't bring it.

[A]

I'm like, I mean it's kind of scary. I didn't want to like create this like fear mechanism. But you think about all of these different races, like you know, UTMB golden ticket races. And every athlete, every elite athlete is running into an aid station, handing their bottle over to someone, having that bottle just be filled up by course on the course. And all it would take is someone just like tapping one drop into that bottle and contaminating something. And it kind of blows my mind when you think about that and when you think about testing elite athletes at, at the race, like all it would take is one ill minded person. And to me I'm like, we need to regulate this more. That is extraordinarily dangerous.

[B]

I don't know how you would though. Yeah, you know, I, maybe the lesson.

[A]

There is no, I think like, I think UTMB kind of has like, I feel like you have like, I think you have water stuff that has been validated. This is water, this is validated. This is scratch. Like, I don't know, it's complicated.

[B]

Bad actors can do bad things anywhere. Yeah. Maybe the secret is just you don't ever give your bottle to somebody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is hard because that's like, I.

[A]

Mean, what are you doing when you're in the middle of the mountains and you have no choice?

[B]

I, I get drink from a Stream. I mean, there's a reason that every time I get drug tested, I am worried. It's not about anything I do. Even though, you know, I joked around about the whey protein. It's not anything I do. It's thinking if one of those people who wants me dead, which there are people online mine who have weird opinions and we've talked about this before, I don't engage with it anymore, nor do I talk about it on here because it's not productive for me or anyone else to know about. But if someone did have that type of ill intent, they could do bad things. That being said, that applies to just about everything in society. If someone has major ill intent, they're gonna cause really bad outcomes for people. And thus you just kind of gotta hope for the best.

[A]

Yeah. It's scary though. You have to think about everything. Like, I just got a retinol cream on Amazon that's like, you know, a natural retinol cream for your face. I got young for AI.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're always plugging my face into AI and being like, how old's my wife?

[B]

You're reverse aging. I said it before and I'll say it again.

[A]

And you went to put it on your face and I was like, don't do it. We don't know what's in there.

[B]

So true. Okay, next up, hot take. Every runner needs at least one non runner friend who doesn't give a shit about their fitness.

[A]

I love this. Yeah, I kind of agree actually. It's nice to have that like non runner friend who has no idea. They're like, you're going to run 12 miles today. What the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah.

[B]

I feel like we can all be that person for ourselves. Ourselves.

[A]

Too true. Yeah.

[B]

Just try not to judge yourself. Like, it's all good. We're all good. No reason to stress yourself out. Uh, number 16. All elite or near elite runners should pace a back of the pack runner at least once. And all back of the packers should crew or volunteer in a way to encounter an elite or near elite runner at least once. I feel like each could get a cool new perspective on the sport that way.

[A]

I agree a hundred percent on this. I love this idea. Yeah. I feel like, I mean, we've both actually been in the back of the pack races before just because, like, we've had tough days.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Remember chasing the cutoff with me at the world championships race? It was just like us like, are we gonna make it? And you were cramping like every quarter mile. It's like, we gotta go. The cutoff is tight.

[B]

For anybody who is newer to the podcast or newer to my journey, just know that at one point I finished literally like last place in the world.

[A]

Championships with me and you were holding.

[B]

Me back and like they almost swept me and swept you too. It was bad. Um, yeah. Yeah. So I, I love this one. And one of the reasons I love Allen back or loop courses is you can get to see the whole race in action. And I get so uplifted by Leadville, for example, where coming out of Twin lakes at mile 62, it almost always perfectly times with athletes just making the cutoffs or not making the cutoff at the other Twin lakes at mile 37. And you get to see the looks and feelings in their faces and feel just how much that one experience of that one aid station is no different than a finish line is for other athletes. And it's such a magical experience to engage with the whole sport.

[A]

I got to see that too, because at Twin Lakes, you know, you. That's both inwards and outwards. And so you go up Hope Pass in the middle of that and then come back to the same aid station. And so I got to see runners coming into Twin Lakes as I was waiting for you to come back to the Outward Bound part of it. And you know, seeing runners not hit the cutoff there and how devastating that is. Like, I can't imagine spending an entire race chasing the cutoff. Like, to me, in some ways that's more pressure than like you, you know, being chased down in second place or third place or like going hunting.

[B]

It's kind of wild when you do get it. It's. Oh, it's bliss, you know, in the same way that a race win could.

[A]

Be and you see people get it by like 40 seconds and it's like they are sprinting. Yeah.

[B]

So, and that's why we talk about everything we do and try to treat like our idea is that everyone is an elite athlete. Like, if you're listening to this, even if it's just using your body to get around the block, you are an elite athlete. And understanding how your physiology works and giving yourself that like self respect and uplifting yourself is the most magical thing. Okay, next up, the feed shipment boxes look like they should be easy to open, but the only way to open them is to stab them with a scissor and rip the box apart.

[A]

I feel like I left. I like to stab things before I take my carbs.

[B]

Yeah, they are very difficult to open at times.

[A]

They are Very well sealed.

[B]

Yeah. Their glue game is their robots are.

[A]

Doing some hardcore gluing.

[B]

Yeah. The box shapes perfect. We talked about this before, that someone who I think at the time was a warehouse worker, developed an algorithm to create the perfect box cutting mechanism so.

[A]

That they're being really respectful of the environment and not wasting cardboard.

[B]

Yeah. But the openings on these, they look like they have, like, perforated edges, and it should be so easy. And then I'm like, there's zero chance in hell I can open this with my hands.

[A]

Well, you need to come to the new warehouse and see the progression the box goes through. So, as you know, the robots go and they collect all the stuff from the feed, and then it goes through this whole process where they take that collection of stuff and put it in the box, but it goes through this whole assembly line of like. Like, you know, it's. It's so cool to see.

[B]

Can I write it?

[A]

You might get glued and stamped and stabbed and cut.

[B]

So you're saying yes.

[A]

You're like, this is my joy.

[B]

I want to feel something to start. 2026. Prediction for 2026 and beyond. The rise of the indie run shop, as so many other communities and shared cultures retreat into purely digital running will lead to a return of retail third places as. As refuges from the artificial. We are all secretly wanting a clubhouse.

[A]

A club clubhouse. Yeah, Clubhouse would be a good name for a running shoe store.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, right.

[A]

Yo, did you have a. I had a clubhouse growing up, and I was so proud of it. Yeah, we just made this little, like, fort in the woods, and we're like, this is our clubhouse. And it was awesome. And I feel like that, to me, embodies, like, what I want in a running shop is just this, like, fort in the woods where you go and hang out with your friends.

[B]

Yeah, we had something like that. So I grew up in the country, and there were people near us that did, like, a clubhouse that had had, like, exposed nails and things, and kids would, like, like, throw knives and stuff at each other. Boy, clubhouses. Not a good thing. At least where I grew up. Not a fan.

[A]

Do you what happened in our clubhouse? I am just thinking of this now, and it is blowing my mind. We had these bowls that we peed in, and it was like we had a pain cave before. We had a pain cave with your friends? Yeah. How weird is that? Okay. I was.

[B]

I wonder if we was you and imaginary people.

[A]

No, it's myself and my brother. And then, like, sometimes our friends would come join. Isn't that weird.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I don't know why we are peeing in polls in clubhouse in the woods, but we were.

[B]

You were just ahead of the game.

[A]

We were ahead of the game.

[B]

I'm so into it.

[A]

We just needed to kick a run treadmill on there.

[B]

Well, to be serious about this hot take. Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to happen.

[A]

No. Sadly enough. Yeah.

[B]

I think we're just moving to less personal, like, personal experiences and more digital, whether we like it or not. And so making your community is really good. The problem is people don't speak with their pocketbooks. Right. Like, if they want to go there, but they don't want to spend there. And that's where the offset is, is that people are just not doing that. And one reason the podcast is magical for us is it does create a little bit of a community, hopefully, and it allows people to feel like they're part of something bigger. But, yeah, the. The money speaks, and I don't know if money is talking in this direction.

[A]

Yeah. Welcome to our clubhouse. Yeah, we got it all in here.

[B]

Okay. Number 19, 20, 26 will be the year of pro and prebiotic supplements. They're the next magical supplement in endurance sports and outside of sports as well.

[A]

I actually, you know, I'm the ultimate skeptic and I kind of agree with this. Yeah, yeah, you have to be good. I mean, I think there's like a whole range of supplements, and some of them, it's like, wild what you're taking or what you're not taking, what they claim you're taking. But I think the good probiotic supplements are actually alpha.

[B]

Yeah, I heard, like, poop transplants are a thing. And so I go into fetal transplants, I go into porta potties at races.

[A]

You should show it up there.

[B]

Tongue first. Tongue first. Yeah. So the studies on probiotics especially are amazing. The. The review studies show performance improvements. It's obviously complicated by the individual, but as we diagnose individual strains and especially as AI comes in and helps researchers understand the complex interaction of those strains. Strains, the game's gonna change. Like probiotic, like, understanding. And the. The way that the gut microbiota work is the ideal prototypical place for AI use. In the same way that AI was able to determine how proteins fold and, you know, the alpha fold project solve that equation. Similarly, we should be able to do the same in ways that we just don't understand gut microbiota now, like, because it's. The interactions are too complex.

[A]

Okay. I want more studies with Gut microbiota of the goats.

[B]

Of the goats.

[A]

Yeah. Let's like, let's see what's happening. Let's see what's happening inside Killian and Jim and you.

[B]

Oh, I thought you're talking about the animal.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. The actual goated trail and mountain runners maybe have a goat in there, as in control.

[B]

Okay, number 20. Hot take. Troll running was more fun when it was done by dirt baggers. Science and data and professionalization have broken records and the ethos of the sport.

[A]

Ouch. Yeah, you should keep reading.

[B]

Okay, number two. In line with one, the average athlete doesn't need bicarb, high carb, carbon plates, et cetera. We're being sold products that work for the select few as if they miraculously will make us lay people, including myself. Superhumans. Marketing works wonders. And while the products themselves still work, not denying that they're not gonna make that big of a difference on athletes like me.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna start with that latter point first, because I actually disagree fundamentally on that. Like, I think super shoes, carbs, even bicarb, and, you know, especially nomu if you toss it in because it's more natural, I think helps almost everyone. Yeah. And studies, studies are showing that. And the point is, like, treat yourself like an elite athlete.

[B]

And a 1%, 2%, 3%, 4% change, it's not about the speed change. It's about if you're able to do that, it's because running feels better and more natural and easier. And so if you're able to train like you deserve all of these things, then you feel better and more embodied when you're running. And so who cares about race results? At the end of the day, for just about anybody on the planet, what ends up mattering is that you can feel so alive in this sport, and you feel so much more alive when you're treating your body at the forefront of science. Designed to make you a little bit faster. Because if something makes you a little bit faster, probably even when you're not going faster, it'll just make you feel better.

[A]

Man, I feel so much more alive on bicarb.

[B]

Well, for you, it's been the ultimate game changer. You used to have really bad days at times, and you never have bad days anymore.

[A]

I haven't had a bad day ever on bicarb. Really, now that I think about it. Yeah. And super shoes, I wear those at school. Drop offs. And I'm like, I'm a badass mom. Everyone's looking at me weird. But I Don't care.

[B]

They are the freaking best. Okay, 20 down. Time for a Patreon promo. Patreon.com swap swap. So much fun going down there. Right now we have the top 10 studies of the year. But most importantly training plans for every single distance you can find. Whatever you want. And to start the new year we're going to be doing training plans almost every week, maybe every other week for a little bit of the most requested ideas. And plus we'll answer questions and do heart rate zones at the $10 tier. Now we've upgraded that because it's going to be a little bit too much. Um, plus 173 bonus episodes that you'll get for just $5 a month.

[A]

And new training plan coming up is a track based training plan. I feel like we, it's. We need a lot more ideas out there for people that are looking for track workouts and it'd be fun to have that all in one spot.

[B]

So much cool stuff coming. So go to patreon.com swap swap. So we're at 21.

[A]

Let's keep going. Let's keep going.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, let's do it. It satisfy will set a record for the most expensive T shirt ever sold.

[A]

Have they already. We went to their website. They sell a t shirt for $260. What the hell?

[B]

Yeah. And just looks like a white T shirt.

[A]

I mean apparently it's mothtech.

[B]

Is it mottech? I think that one might not have been.

[A]

Oh, I don't know. I'm just. Yeah. I mean what, what isn't. What even is mothtech?

[B]

Moth tech is very important because it has holes in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it was not anything super special special. But I like it. You know, it's all about. I've really displayed on this that I think the market will solve a lot of problems if there's a market for it. Great. Because maybe it's a community thing. And also fashion being expensive is cool. Right? Like we would never talk about Balenciaga and say oh they're like doing something evil or I don't think maybe they are. I don't know enough about fashion. But the idea being caring about things and wanting to invest in things that bring you meaning and enjoy is cool in. In the same way that I don't understand fashion. So I will wear the shittiest clothes you've ever seen doesn't mean that other people's embrace of that world is a bad thing. And I think that's essentially what we're seeing is just it's a Balenciaga. Balenciaga bag for runners. Right.

[A]

I don't even know what Balenciaga is.

[B]

B. It's a B, not a V. See.

[A]

I don't even know what a Balenciaga is. Explain it to me.

[B]

You don't listen to enough cardi. B. I don't.

[A]

I don't wear as my fashion. You know more about fashion than I do, apparently.

[B]

Um, Valenciaga. It's.

[A]

You're saying it with a V. No, I'm not. You're like Balenciaga.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know anything about it.

[A]

But I think you just won me over. Let the market decide. I agree.

[B]

Let the market. But also just let people love what they love. And I think part of love sometimes is investing your money in things that don't make any sense to other people. As we sit here and talk about $70 baking soda from Martin for sodium bicarbonate.

[A]

Yeah, but you can cut it in half many different ways.

[B]

Yeah, you can also cut your shirt, as satisfied already does.

[A]

True.

[B]

Next one, I will apply to be Killian's lab tech, including temperature taking duties. And that's related to this one. Killian debuts new rectal thermometer technology in wind's western states, leading every trail runner and podcast on a quest for the killian probe version 1, which becomes more coveted than super shoes for performance enhancement.

[A]

This is outstanding. Also, I feel like we owe Killian an official apology because I don't know if anyone would have noticed from the scientific article. It was like, deep in the method section that he was using a rectal probe for all of his heat training sessions. Unless we talked about it in the podcast. And now it like everywhere.

[B]

Oh, Megan, you just stepped on my joke.

[A]

What was your joke? Go for it.

[B]

I want to get deep in his method section.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, same. Don't we all? But yeah, I don't think anyone would.

[B]

Have known that this is the power of the swap podcast that the rectal thermometer stuff has taken off as a meme.

[A]

Now there's memes everywhere and I'm like, I am so sorry, Killian. He's like, can we delete? Can we create an addendum to delete that from the paper?

[B]

Yeah. That's pretty cool, though. Oh, I love that guy. Next up, big hiker esque. Water bag with a long straw is superior to a soft flask. Rationale. It's so much easier to drink out of when you're running fast and tired. And way comfort to have the way comfier to have the weight on your back instead of chest. As long as you have a good system to secure the straw from flapping around.

[A]

I like the idea of a water bag. It reminds me of Franzia. It's like, slap that back.

[B]

I don't know if having weight on your back is necessarily the best thing.

[A]

We on the front is better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can we solve this better, though? Like, I hate that feeling of having to run on a trail and just, like, drink from my side. Boob of a water flask in my vest. Like, I feel like we can design this better.

[B]

The answer is a waist belt.

[A]

Yeah, but this, I mean, did you see your Baywatch waist belt at javelina? That thing was bouncing way more than my boobs.

[B]

I just got a waist belt that was too big and was too. Like. I just didn't think about it.

[A]

You have excuses every time. There's been so many videos. You're like, it's just on wrong. Or I put the bottle in. Weird. Literally, if that happened to me for one mile, I'd be like, this thing is out.

[B]

You're looking for scientific breakthroughs over here, and I'm just telling. I know what works.

[A]

You're like, I'm just gonna bounce around.

[B]

Not like this, though. Maybe camelback become the new hotness.

[A]

Okay, well, someone create us water with new hotness. I don't want to have to drink from my side. Boop.

[B]

Yeah. I just don't know.

[A]

And I don't have to hold it either. And I don't want it to be in a. I'm picky over here.

[B]

Okay, what I'm going to do is I'm going to throw a lasso around Francesco Poopy, and then he's going to carry my water.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

That's my whole system. Next up, Will Murray sets the Western States course record, signs a massive contract, and the hype around cross training gets even bigger.

[A]

Ooh, he does a lot of cycling. He does do a lot of cycling. He does a lot of cycling after running, which is. I kind of like that.

[B]

And before. Before running.

[A]

A fatigue resistance concept. I think he's already going to sign a big contract. Who do you think he's going to sign with?

[B]

I can't wait for.

[A]

Just wait for the journey first announcement. Yeah, I'm going hoka.

[B]

Yeah, I think hoka is probably the answer here.

[A]

I think that's the most logical answer.

[B]

I have no inside info on this.

[A]

So Granito is wearing catamounts at. Maybe it's Brooks.

[B]

I don't think Brooks has the money.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think they're making a push.

[B]

We'll see. Though. I. I think his value right now is probably. I don't question. He doesn't do social media, so it would have to be someone betting on him winning, right? Western states.

[A]

He's gonna need to post Brahna spa photos.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Come on, Will.

[B]

Where is it? But it'll be really fun in January to see all the signings. I actually hadn't thought about that until right now. Yeah, it's really fun. As a fan of the sport, do.

[A]

You have a prediction of any big signing?

[B]

Oh, I have inside info on a few.

[A]

Oh, do you?

[B]

I'll tell you offline.

[A]

How'd you not tell me already?

[B]

I. Megan, we got a lot going on.

[A]

A lot going on.

[B]

Next up, FDA approves high carb scratch for medically treating prolapses and hemorrhoids in adults over 30.

[A]

You just stick around for my butt story to understand this one.

[B]

Oh, yeah, the butt story. If you didn't listen to it two weeks ago, now.

[A]

Two weeks ago.

[B]

Best moment in podcast history. I've gone back and listened to it 10 times, which I never do, but it just makes me laugh so hard every time. So, Megan, thank you for bringing that joy to the world, to our listeners, to me. The way you told it was brilliant. And who knew this would be our life?

[A]

Who knew? Well, I'm actually going to refute this hot take because I feel like scratch is too good to be poured on a rectal prolapse.

[B]

Wait, too good for your butt?

[A]

Yeah, you got to walk down to the cafeteria and just get the sugar packets and save the scratch for actual performance.

[B]

Okay. I don't know. I think our butts deserve the best.

[A]

My butt deserves watermelon.

[B]

You know what it deserves? What? Hyperlite.

[A]

Yeah, actually, hyper light, maybe. Do you think there's too many electrolytes in there?

[B]

Oh, perfect amount of electrolytes. It'll burn so good that theoretically is 25 out of 50. Megan.

[A]

Okay, can we do, like, a select few?

[B]

Oh, let's just keep going. No, no, no, no, no. We're not. We're just gonna keep going. Maybe we can't just. Of 50.

[A]

Okay, let's do it. This is so fun.

[B]

Next one. Hot take is. A lot of running companies don't use their own gear or bend to marketing hacks. I bought my partner a new Solemn Invest. The soft flask openings were so tiny, you couldn't fit an electrolyte tab in it, let alone clean it. It was obviously Defective the moment I opened it. Anyone who actually runs would have immediately noticed that was dumb, given how common it is ubiquitous question mark to add drink mix to bottles. Also, the trend towards marketing trail super shoes for gravel and smooth trails. Just run those in road shoes.

[A]

Agreed. Gravel shift shoes.

[B]

That's a thing? That's really.

[A]

I know, it's so weird. I'm like, guys, just wear a super shoe. Wear an alphafly. And I've seen that too. Like, the soft floss that I got for the Salomon vest could not even fit a precision tab. Yeah, it's like, why are they so tight? Stop it.

[B]

It's so. It's so strange. I think that design is sometimes winning out over utility in the world of troning because no one thinks TR owners care. Like, I think that's as simple as it gets and so agree a thousand percent with this hot take generally, especially for shoes. Next up, a new super shoe study shows a reduction in running economy and overall performance, specifically for the ASU one. Brutal. After my comment a second ago. Yeah, that would really suck, wouldn't it? Yeah, I mean, I know they work for me because I have running economy tests that I do. So, you know, if I'm doing running economy tests on the treadmill, I am better than looking at, you know, a study in a lab that has a lot of runners that don't run much like I do.

[A]

And I think. I was gonna say, I think your form is very specifically optimized to these shoes. So I actually would not be surprised if a study found that there was like, you know, running economy reductions in some or it was neutral when you took the, like cohort of people who responded versus those who didn't.

[B]

Let's do just do trail shoe running economy studies all the time, just like we've done in road racing. So spoiler alert. One of the highest ranked studies that we did in our rankings was the PUMA R3 study that showed a huge performance benefit from shoes that were essentially designed by machine learning algorithms. And God, if we just measured in a lab, we would know so much more and it would stop all of the design bullshit. Next up, not a hot take, just a truth. But there is no such thing as private property or trespassing when a porta Potty is involved. Porta potties are for the people. At least the people with IBS who like to run a lot.

[A]

Porta Potties are for the people. Put that on a T shirt.

[B]

Yeah, Political slogan right there. In fact, at mile two and a half of our race Run route. There is a locked porta potty or there has been. I think it went away in the, in the windstorm actually.

[A]

No, it's like almost. It's like hanging on by a thread. Have you noticed that? It's like locked down into the ground but a lot of those like locks are removed.

[B]

Yeah, it'd be really fun to go in there in a windstorm.

[A]

Oh man. Be like, I'm on a rocket ship, I'm going to the moon.

[B]

Totally agree with this. Every porta potty you should be allowed to use. And if they have a porta potty that is locked, you are allowed to on their front porch. Next up, my boyfriend's hot take and I don't endorse is that high carb isn't needed for performance. He cites low carb hunter gatherer societies as still being successful both historically and present day.

[A]

Let's go race the low carb hunter gatherers and see what happens.

[B]

I think that's the big point is the things we're doing with our bodies, including people that are chasing cutoffs, are so unprecedented evolutionarily that we are using systems that have not just sprang up naturally. We are harnessing things and printing principles that are a natural process, but we're doing them at speeds and you know, with intention. That is not. So that analogy doesn't work. And high carb makes the stuff a lot healthier, faster. All that good stuff. Next up, next year Jim is going to pull off the Western States UTMB double win and Killian will push him to a new record at Western States coming in second.

[A]

I saw Killian on that Western states list. It makes me excited.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder, is Jim going to do it?

[A]

That's a good question. Does he have a ticket?

[B]

I don't think so, no. Yeah, he, I mean he could get a ticket just like he's anywhere easily. But we also got a hot take that Jim Walmsley takes a HOKA sponsor spot for Western states instead of racing in via the golden ticket. And the ultra trail Internet loses its collective mind.

[A]

Do you think like pro level athletes at gym level, like the goats, like Killian, Tara, Jim, do you think they should take sponsor spots?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you think?

[A]

I mean, in some ways I feel like if you're at that level, just race for golden ticket. No, no, I, I think it does change your season.

[B]

Western states is cool, but anyone who is putting everything in their life to get there, go do other hundreds. Like I promise they're just as cool.

[A]

And great west perhaps sometimes Even better.

[B]

For the future of the sport. Getting as many of the gym style athletes into these races as possible is good, right? Like one of the arguments that like Finn has told me when I was on his podcast. Podcast is that he thinks the Western States video series we did brought way more viewers to the live stream. What will be interesting is when I'm assuming I'm not back at Western States this year.

[A]

No, I think assuming you will be.

[B]

At Western States, but assuming I'm not, how does the live stream do relative to last year? I'd be curious to see if we see the same growth year over year. The idea being that the more storylines you get, the better it is to increase the funnel of the sport. And because I think to quote free Trail, trail running will save the world. It's so good for people emotionally, mentally, physically. Because of that, I want the funnel to be bigger and I want more people to be access. Have access to it. So an athlete like Jim getting a sponsor spot is, would be so, so good for the sport and it would also simplify his process so he can get there healthier. Like doing Chianti, where he got his golden ticket this year. So. Well, it was one of the performances of the year. I think it might have contributed to his injury that led to him not being able to race Western states at all. So I think we should give a backdoor way to get in for the true goats. I'm not talking the me's, I'm talking the drama. Jim's, the Killian, the Courtney's, the Katies. Like there should be some process that lets them in where they don't have to race and risk injury to get in.

[A]

Damn, you won me over again. You did. What is happening over here? I mean, I, I think like, you know, having Jim at Western States this year, the live coverage of that would go off.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Jim. Jim versus Killian, of course.

[B]

It would go bonkers.

[A]

Bonkers. Yeah. And actually, female wise, they're all at Hard Rock.

[B]

They're all hard. True. But yeah, I mean, we'll see the women sometimes double up more than the men do. Next up, hot take. Running without a GPS watch is better.

[A]

Um, yeah, good response, good response. No, I was thinking I was my mom. My mind was on Hard Rock. Okay. I had follow ups and I was like, I'm just gonna hold my horses on that. Um, I actually have a freestyle shark watch and it is wonderful sometimes to run data free.

[B]

When have you last used it?

[A]

I like Strava too much.

[B]

Yeah, when we.

[A]

You Know, actually this is put a number on it.

[B]

When have you asked?

[A]

Use it like five years ago. Okay, here's the thing is I feel like my relationship with running is so much healthier that I don't care what my GPS watch says anymore. Like I feel like before me, before I to have a judgment based brain. Thus I needed data free runs and now I don't really care.

[B]

Yeah, I think the GPS watch, it's more about how you use it. So take pace off your watch face.

[A]

Oh, that's been so wonderful for me. Yes.

[B]

And take laps off. So don't lap your workouts, do those two things. And your GPS watch can act like a dumb watch. And you can still get the benefits of data and an understanding of your run. Because I think whatever drawbacks there are from the GPS watch of self judgment can be counteracted by the memories that just having a file gives you. Like for me, I can go back to a run five years ago and kind of remember it if I have a GPS file. Otherwise it's lost to time. And for me that's meaningful. And so I agree that data can be bad, but I think it's more about how you access and visualize data rather than the data itself.

[A]

Yeah, one of my favorite things right now is Strava shows me runs from a year ago today or two years ago today or three years ago today. And I click on every single one of them. Oh, it's so fun to go back and be like to relive that past memory. And I've already thought about that now in the Strava posts that I do or like, you know, just the regular runs that I do. I have photos of Leo and Ollie or things I want to remember. And I feel like it triggers that like memory cue in my brain so much more.

[B]

Whenever it does that for me, I look at the title and I'm like, that's terrible.

[A]

Like, I thought of this at mile 13. Why?

[B]

What are you thinking, man?

[A]

Like, where was Megan? I should have buffered this.

[B]

I was so young and stupid at age 36. Okay, next up, some major fkts will go down. Races have gotten so fast. The talent that would have been top five in races a decade ago is going to have to look elsewhere to make a name for themselves.

[A]

Ooh. I actually love looking at stories from athletes that performed well a decade ago and are still performing now because it's like, tell me your secrets.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. People that have navigated both eras, especially the high carb transition. I think that's fascinating. But I like this idea. Not necessarily because of the competitiveness of races though. I think that plays a role role in that. If you go do an fkt like yes, they can be competitive historically, but you're not going to have these like massive pressure cookers of competition that you'd have at like western states or UTMB or something like that. And I think it's an opportunity to make a name for yourself that can then translate into other things. Like it's kind of gets back to my point. My hot take is pros go to Leadville. Your the one weirdest part to me is that the contracts reward Leadville so much like Leadville is a Tier 1 race in most of these contracts at the same level of the biggest races in the world yet we're not seeing big profields there. And I'm like don't be afraid of altitude. Don't think that, oh, this doesn't have the cachet of UTMB or something. It's like if you go to Leadville and you break my record, you're going to get a really massive contract way more than if you finish fourth at utmb. And so much like this FKT argument is saying go to that race, I'm saying go to races with records, go to races that have history, go to races that have notoriety and put yourself out there in those settings for the same reason.

[A]

I think Leadville is unique though in the sense that I think you have to live at altitude to have any shot at doing well there or getting a record. And I actually think your record I think is more untouchable than you give it credit for.

[B]

It's going to get beaten.

[A]

I mean you're a high altitude performer through and through and I think altitude does not touch you in curious ways. I think if we raced western states at higher altitudes, I'd be curious how that Shakespeare up the field.

[B]

What if we race it on the moon?

[A]

Take the porta potty rocket ship there. Then I might have in the wind. Yes, you would science the shit out of that rocket ship.

[B]

Yeah, I overdo like I don't know, spacesuit training, whatever. Okay, let's rapid fire as many as we can. We're at 33. 33 hot take. My wife will finally believe running four plus hours every Saturday is good for me.

[A]

Oh, that's a hard one.

[B]

Ooh yeah, actually sorry about this one.

[A]

Yeah, we actually just had to make an edit because I was like find someone who cares. I meant it. I didn't mean it that way. I meant it in the sense that there's a lot of community out there that can be uplifting for you.

[B]

My response was just, ouch.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

Stop this right now.

[A]

I did not mean it that way.

[B]

And it's, it's fine to have conflicting ideas with your partner, but this matters. You matter. And I think the frivolous things of life are the important things. And don't lose sight of that, especially when you have kids. Like, that's my main recommendation for anyone when they do have kids, is stay frivolous and silly, because that ends up being what makes your personality. And your personality is beautiful and it's unique to you. Everything else is just like an AI algorithm.

[A]

And I think you can reciprocate for whatever your partner cares about, like, be their tailwind. And also, thank you, David, because, like, you know, we've had a lot less time recently just in terms of, like, demands of kids and work and everything going on. And I feel like both of us, we've just made a pact of, like, training is important to us and, and never feel guilty while they're training. And I truly have not felt guilty on a run or a bike or a workout. And like, you know, sometimes it's hard. It's hard to go out there for a three or four hour long run, and that's challenging.

[B]

You should have felt guilty. Why?

[A]

Cause I didn't take your video?

[B]

My Instagram reel. I missed it. You should feel really bad, like you.

[A]

Mistimed your workout as a content manager.

[B]

Exactly. Next up, I predict uphill threshold and weight fast will be hot next year.

[A]

Ooh, the combination together or separate?

[B]

Hmm. I think it's separate is what they mean. Because uphill threshold and weight vest probably wouldn't be the same thing.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I thought I was just read that as treadmill.

[B]

Um, yeah. And so I think uphill threshold is the new hotness. And we've been pushing it a lot. I think we're the ones at the forefront of that. Not a weight vest, obviously. That's coming more from the evoke endurance. It's kind of two different ways of getting at the same question. Ours being more focused on speed, there's being more focused on specific race performance in these long ultras.

[A]

And I think it depends on what race you're doing. Like, I feel like the weight vest is probably highly beneficial for a race like utmb, whereas uphill treadmill threshold probably more relevant for a race like Western states.

[B]

But what about an off season for either race prey? Uphill treadmill threshold.

[A]

Yeah. Exactly.

[B]

So, you know, I think the specific nature of weight vest is a little bit different than what we're seeing when we're talking about building speed long term. Uh, if this might be our first YouTube video on uphill threshold for 23 seconds.

[A]

Ooh, we should do that.

[B]

We'll see. Uh, next up, you can get the fittest you've ever been in your 50s. Caveat slash nuance. I don't think I ever got that fit in earlier decades. Lol. I just kind of dicked around. And honestly, back in the 80s, the training advice was pretty poor. But now I have a coach, a nutritionist who is changing the game and I fully expect to be the fastest and fittest I've ever been in these last two years of my 50s. Huzzah.

[A]

Well, huzzah indeed. That's exciting.

[B]

Yeah. So cool. I think as you age, aging is an opportunity. You can keep going. Go for it. Next up, too much ultramarathon advice is ambiguous and not specific. Specific. Obviously it's more complex, but the most important factors are getting faster and learning to fuel high carb, not amorphous advice about fatigue resistance.

[A]

I feel like there's something I've been undertone about amorphous advice about fatigue resistance.

[B]

I think this one's complimenting us.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

I think it's saying we give specific advice rather than saying we don't because.

[A]

We talk about fatigue resistance a lot.

[B]

I, I think, I think it is. I think it's. It's saying we are pushing the fueling and faster concepts. I think, I hope maybe, who knows, next one bicarb will become a banned software.

[A]

Yeah, that would make me real sad. I feel good on bicarb. Also be really hard to measure and test for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also, it's like baking soda in your muffin. It's ouch.

[B]

If they ban cake. Game's over. Game is over. Next up, Hans Troyer wins Black Canyon and Francesco Pupi is second.

[A]

What about Francesco Pupi with a rope?

[B]

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

David is running with Francesco Pupi and Francesco Puppi is carrying all his water.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I still.

[A]

He's your water boy. He's your water bitch.

[B]

I'll still find a way to finish. 15 minutes behind Francesco Bupy.

[A]

The rope is really long. Really, really long rope.

[B]

Uh, next one. My prediction is that Swap is going to make a six month training plan for pregnant woman starting at 12 weeks. It will be David's most challenging plan to create to date.

[A]

We actually had a discussion about a postpartum plan and I vetoed it because, man, postpartum providers and thoughts and sometimes things out there are spicy. And I was like, we don't want to wait into that spiciness.

[B]

What about when someone is pregnant?

[A]

That's also a little tricky too. There's just so much variation and there's so much flexibility and I don't want to really want to wade into that.

[B]

Don't you want to get canceled, though?

[A]

Yeah. Don't you have this burning desire, just.

[B]

Feel so alive when you're getting canceled?

[A]

Do you know who really wants to cancel people is Momstagram. We need to get out of there.

[B]

True, true. Okay, here's the last one. We're going to stop at 40. Oh, also, not a PG or even PG13 photo is mistakenly posted to Estrava, then deleted a day later. Not saying it's the roaches. Could be anyone in trail running. Roaches do have a high probability of this though. And it becomes a scandal on par with Janet Jackson at the Super Bowl. When all of the dust settles, it will have been incredible for the sport.

[A]

Incredible for the sport.

[B]

So they're saying someone posts like porn on in Strava.

[A]

Mistakenly.

[B]

Mistakenly. Huh? How?

[A]

I feel like you could just hit the wrong photo that you upload. It'd probably be pretty easy. This reminds me of the Instagram days. Did you know? So, like very early on in Instagram, you could post a photo and the only way to edit the photo, like to create a filter or like a frame around it or anything like that, was to post the photo and then delete it. Do you remember that? So people would post things really quick and then delete it. But sometimes people like Ariana Grande would do it and her post would have like 2000 likes before she deleted it. And it vaguely reminds me of that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just think this does illuminate an opportunity for people that are creating and for professional athletes to view their brand as something that is more broad. I. I'm like in. In no judgment call there.

[A]

Like, like, I want more naked Stravas.

[B]

No, I mean, I'm sure actually Strava.

[A]

Probably is a filter for this.

[B]

Maybe. I don't know.

[A]

But the thing is, do you have. I don't think I have anything on my phone photo wise that mistakenly is greater than PG13 or is greater than PG13 in general.

[B]

I have a number of different rashes.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say we got my butt hemorrhoids on. Do you actually remember at one point, so it was like, you know, three days after Ollie was born and I was like, showing someone photos and just like sliding real fast. I was like, here's my baby. And it's like, there's my. I deleted them because I was like, I don't want that to happen again.

[B]

Yeah. But like, you know, maybe the butt timer needs to be on only fans. But there is a lot of opportunity. And I think sometimes creators and people are scared to experiment. And I think. I don't know, to be serious. I think there's opportunities to think about all this stuff in a more provocative way.

[A]

Yeah. Do you have a single photo on your phone that would be count as scandalous?

[B]

Like, I'm serious. There are rashes on the stuff that would be scandalous.

[A]

Have you. I haven't heard about these rashes.

[B]

Megan, you're going to be getting a call from a medical provider shortly. You should answer the phone. Okay, that is it for today.

[A]

No, I need to do this final one. It just says ho. Zoinks. What's that about?

[B]

I think huzzah mixed with zoinks.

[A]

I like that actually crest a hill and be like, huzoinks.

[B]

That is pretty good.

[A]

Maybe they're doing. We should have a new T shirt that's just like hainks on the back of it.

[B]

This same listener wrote tomato hands instead of potato hands. Norwegian singles greater than Norwegian mingles. Or two Norwegian mingles. High carb to bicarb. V2 max workouts to TJ Maxx workouts. So they were on one this morning, actually.

[A]

You know how TJ Max has two X's at the end?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We should just add three X's to the end of VO2 Max. Like, we gotta make it really scandalous.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

That's how we're gonna bring all the, you know, all the people to the VO2 max workouts. Combining it all. Okay, let's get to like. Megan, we need to get out of here.

[B]

This was an episode.

[A]

This was an episode.

[B]

It was an episode.

[A]

This was. This was wild.

[B]

It was certainly that. We promise we're back to science programming next week.

[A]

In fact, we have ten good studies next week. Perhaps eleven. Ten and a half. Yeah.

[B]

So before our listener corner, what do we want to talk about?

[A]

Janji.

[B]

Janji. The best company. Go to J A N J. I get all your gear there. I did a big shopping spree this week, and I got the Atlas Multi pant, which I freaking love. And the thermal runner. Runner insulated jacket. It's like a warmer winter jacket. And their winter gear is just off the charts.

[A]

I've been wearing the fleece tight for every single winter run, and it is perfect. And I think it's actually been great for my legs because so often I find my legs are cold and I have not once had cold legs in the fleece tight.

[B]

Yeah. So if you go to john g.com, use code SWAP, you, you get a discount. Also, they're stepping up to support the videos next year, so let's support them. And on to Listener Corner. I'm not sure what we included here.

[A]

That was basically just had Listener Corner.

[B]

I think they came from the same list, so this could be spicy. Here it is. David and Megan's approach to life and training changes the world as we know it. Oh, this is a good one. People adopt the same attitude that we should love and appreciate each other, be kind to ourselves and others, and then turn helps to achieve what? World peace and a society that respects each other's beliefs in every way.

[A]

Was this episode World Peacey? Maybe Francesca with a rope feels like world peace. Yes. She's going to drag us all to greatness.

[B]

Francesca brings us all together. Yeah. This means so much. Like, you know, at the end of the day, we just want to bring you a little bit of joy in your lives. So to hear we're helping you and you feel that way, even in a jokey sense, means the world. And that relates to the next one. Swap. Video podcast breaks into the mainstream in major ways because the algorithm starts feeding it to more people. Adoption of. Adoption of distance running in the US Increases five years down the line. We see the pro field expand and get so much better because of a larger population to pull outliers from. And course, records in every distance from half marathon to 250 miles start dropping, all because people enjoy running more, because they've. They're eating enough and training wisely, thanks to Swap.

[A]

Wow, that's a lot of credit. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for this prediction. Do you think we're going to do video podcasts?

[B]

We'll see. We're supposed to, but it hasn't really.

[A]

Like, we're working on it. Yes. We have a few steps that we need to think about.

[B]

A few steps still.

[A]

Best you to think about. Like, you know, that means that Cody's probably going to be in the room with us. I feel very comfortable.

[B]

No, no, no. He'll just get the file.

[A]

He'll get the file.

[B]

Okay. After.

[A]

Yeah, we'll just film ourselves. It's like a selfie camera.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A tripod.

[B]

Yeah. We talked about how content can be provocative. Yeah. So would that this happen? No, no. The numbers are so small in running, like for a podcast or anything, that you're just not increasing the denominator that much. Like, you're catching a few people every time. And that's our goal, is to just help a few people see, like, the magic of that world. But you're not just catching the huge numbers. What would cause this is if trail running and people are brought more into the spheres of, like, tons of. Of views. Things like the documentaries we're doing, you know, that get like 300,000 views. Or like, to be serious, the Joe Rogan podcast. Like, if any showrunner is asked to go on there, you absolutely should. Even if you have issues in some broader sense, because it's like, that will bring so many more people into the sport.

[A]

Or a Netflix documentary. Like, think about, like, what Netflix did for Tour de France. Like, I think so many more people are interested.

[B]

Or F1.

[A]

Or F1. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And so, yeah, it's very quiet. And our goal long term is just to get more and more people into the sport. So this would be the dream, but I think we're mostly not the ones to do it outside of Cody's work, I think on YouTube that is more highly produced.

[A]

Do you think trail running in the Olympics would have any way of elevating trail running's visibility?

[B]

True.

[A]

Like, ski mountaineering could be an interesting parallel of, like, how much that's elevated ski mountaineering's visibility within the broader sports world and what that's like to be in the Olympics for the first time.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's a good question. What do you think?

[A]

Yes and no. I mean, I feel like some. A lot of the, like, Olympic sports are still kind of like, viewed as, like, fringe or niche in some ways.

[B]

Yeah. Like, climbing is in the Olympics, but it's just the sport climbing, where they just go up the wall in a second. It looks crazy.

[A]

And we would love this kind of thing, but we never watch sport climbing.

[B]

And it hasn't brought more people into climbing. I don't think what brings people into climbing is free solo is Alex Honnold going on podcasts and seeming a little.

[A]

Bit creepy, but also creepy. He's the best.

[B]

No, he's great. Alex Honnold is the absolute greatest.

[A]

But also I'm like, Alex, like, remember, Remember you made. We had Alex on. On those podcasts and it was fun.

[B]

Back when we used to guess.

[A]

Back when to guess and he came with questions for us. It was Great. We also edited out a portion of the podcast where you talked about a baby coffin.

[B]

A baby coffin?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And he was just like, no, no, no. He was a game. He was a game for it. I love that guy so much. But there's a reason he's the best in the world. In fact, he's going to be on the Netflix doing a free solo of a skyscraper or something and doing it live, which is fascinating, but that's the type of thing that would expand a sports reach. Right. And the more opportunities that running and trail running has to be that to be more inclusive by means of not being gatekeepy, like by just letting everybody in as much as possible, the better. And so we hope to improve that culture. But I. I don't think our particular contribution is going to be the thing that changes the game.

[A]

Okay. Doing that live on Netflix. My brain is still stuck on that. Are you going to watch it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It kind of scares me a little bit.

[B]

I wouldn't put it on Netflix unless it's like walking up a set of stairs for him, you know, unless it's that easy.

[A]

But it's not. I mean, there's. It's still a skyscraper.

[B]

Well, for him, though, everything's different. Right? Like, he. It doesn't. It's not the same risk calculus.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Okay, so what sport should be in the Olympics? Ooh, I have an idea. That's why I'm teeing it up.

[A]

Is it something. It's something silly. I can see your face. I know, I know. It's so funny. I can tell when you're going to be ridiculous or make a joke, and I feel like it pisses you off so much. You're like. You're ruining my thunder. What is it? No, you just made a sad face.

[B]

I didn't make a sad face.

[A]

I'm sorry. I didn't. Yes. And you.

[B]

Now. It's not going to work. Megan, I want to say we could see how rapidly we can reduce hemorrhoids using various.

[A]

Using different high carb powders.

[B]

Boom.

[A]

Boom.

[B]

That's how we sell it all.

[A]

Give me a prediction for the best one. Yeah. The best high carb powder.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I think it's hyperlite.

[B]

Hyperlite? Why?

[A]

I think they're really committed to the carb business. Like 400 calories and 16 ounces is kind of bonkers, honestly.

[B]

Okay. I think It's a Precision 1000 cab.

[A]

Ouch.

[B]

Ouch.

[A]

And then it. A volcano. Know, it's how you just have. Don't have a butt anymore.

[B]

I think that's how we end. 2,025. We love you. Thank you so much for being here. Huzzoinks have the best year ahead. We're just so grateful for you. You're the best.

[A]

Thanks for being here. No, don't do that again.