294. The Bicarb Revolution, Theory of Doubles, Vitamin D Supplementation, Stairmill Training, and Zone 2 Weirdness!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Some Work, All Play — Episode 294

Title: The Bicarb Revolution, Theory of Doubles, Vitamin D Supplementation, Stairmill Training, and Zone 2 Weirdness!
Hosts: David Roche and Megan Roche, M.D.
Release Date: January 20, 2026

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Overview

In this lively, science-forward episode of "Some Work, All Play," David and Megan dive into a buffet of running, health, and training topics. From the intricacies of vitamin D supplementation and its sometimes surprising relationship with athletes’ health, to the newest studies on sodium bicarbonate ingestion for performance, to deep musings on injury and motivation, the pair dish out research, real-world advice, love, and laughs. The episode balances hard evidence with practical, sometimes cheeky, and always authentic anecdotes from their training and coaching lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Sweaty, Smelly Realities of Winter Training & Vitamin D Supplementation

• [01:10] David kicks things off with a real-world tip: he's now supplementing with vitamin D and finds not all forms are equal—previous sources gave him heart palpitations; now, a new form has him feeling energetic (and maybe extra smelly!).
• [03:19] They reference a 2015 meta-analysis showing 56% of athletes were vitamin D 'inadequate', even in summer (cutoff: <32 ng/mL). Megan points out:

  "Having seen athlete blood work, it’s not surprising to me... I say push your levels above 50." (06:02)

• [05:10] Both recommend bloodwork before supplementation. David's routine: 5,000 IU/day + children’s gummies; Megan’s: 6,000–7,000 IU but warns higher doses can cause issues.
• [06:09] David was at low-normal levels (upper 20s, low 30s); Megan:

  "Don’t call me a low boy, Megan. I am so adequate." (06:15)

2. Deodorant Wars: Gendered Scents and Misadventures

• [06:32] David switches to women’s deodorants, finding them stronger and more effective.

  "Old Spice doesn’t do shit. It makes you smell like dusty oregano." (07:55)

• Megan notes:

  "As a woman, I don’t know if I want my man smelling like a college lacrosse locker room." (06:41)

3. Training Life Updates: Injury, Adapting, and Smart Pivots

• [08:39] Megan describes canceling a big YouTube treadmill session due to a minor foot pain, and quickly pivots to the bike—highlighting the maturity of stopping early to prevent injury.

  "Three days off solves most problems... Three days off saves three weeks, saves three months." (10:36)

• David contrasts this with his own injury history, noting he ran “for two months” on a stress reaction.
• [11:30] Megan finds new joy in gravel biking as a cross-training alternative — "I might even love it more than running."

4. Shockwave Therapy and Husbands in Boots

• [12:05] David undergoes focused shockwave therapy for his foot, describing the pain as "childbirth-level" and suggesting he "ripped up all the exam paper on the table."

5. Reflections: Obliteration as a Goal?

• [14:40] Megan and David touch on balancing the drive to “obliterate one's self” in racing with long-term health, especially as they age and recover from injury:

  "Maybe that’s good for health. So there’s a balance there I need to strike in the future..." (15:53)

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Science & Training Deep Dives

6. News & Shoe Tech Updates

• [22:22] Inside scoop: Biomechanics researcher Wilder Hookamper may be joining HOKA, signaling big advancements for HOKA’s tech.
• [25:28] Jeffrey Burns’ single-athlete shoe study: the Norda 005 (no plate, advanced foam) outperformed both a super-light control shoe and the plated HOKA Tecton X3 for oxygen consumption. Megan is impressed:

  "Compared to the Keurag, the Tecton reduced oxygen consumption by 1.6%. The Norda was 3.2%!" (28:04)

7. The Bicarb Revolution: New Study at Altitude

• [32:12] Study: Effect of Sodium Bicarbonate Mini-Tablets in a Carbohydrate Hydrogel on Cycling Performance at 1,850m Altitude (Morton tabs).
  • Key findings:
    • 1.2% improvement in a 40km time trial (one of the longer durations studied).
    • Benefits most apparent in the final quartiles of effort.
  • Cautions:
    • Placebo didn’t sodium-match; possible confound.
    • GI upsets common in both groups; runners may have more GI issues than cyclists.
  • Use tips: Try dividing Morton “elephant dose” tabs, start with smaller amounts (0.1–0.2 g/kg), avoid right before running races.

  "Bicarb is the next level... you just need one of these new dosing methods that doesn’t cause GI symptoms." (39:56)

8. Gnomeo: The Next Big Thing?

• [19:00] David is obsessed with Gnomeo (broccoli extract supplement), citing potential benefits for recovery and mitochondrial health, not just performance:

  "It might make overreaching kind of impossible. And that's my dream." (20:05)

• Megan tries it and notes a strong taste—"maybe I’m just biased... if it’s this strong, it must be doing something." (21:02)
• Tip: Start pre-high intensity or tough sessions, or as a recovery aid; dosing is still experimental.

9. CBD Study: Does It Do Anything?

• [43:11] 300mg CBD (way over typical doses):
  • Reported 21% more calm and 8% lower RPE, but no performance difference.
  • All athletes immediately knew which condition was in play.
  • High CBD doses pose a risk for THC contamination in competition testing.

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Rapid-Fire Q&A and Training Nuggets

10. Biking “Pain,” Doubles Theory, and Stairmills

• [49:15] Q: Why does biking (even easy) hurt so much?
  • Biking causes more muscular tension vs. running. Getting out of the saddle can help relieve tension.
• [54:15] Q: Is breaking workouts into doubles (or even triples) beneficial?
  • For injury prevention, yes—shorter sessions reduce acute stress. But doubles are most useful for pros (who can rest between); not always realistic for busy lives.

  "Double theory does mostly come from professional athletes... always give doubles as optional." (56:30)

• [60:37] Stairmill: Endorsed as excellent cross-training, especially for power and as a “double” (second workout).

  "The stairmill is a great answer to combine with doubles theory... for power building." (61:54)

• [64:26] Heart rate zones: Ignore Garmin’s or Strava’s defaults if they don’t match perceived effort or lactate data; context and self-knowledge matter.

  "Garmin zones are sometimes very strange. Your zone two is not that low." (64:33)

11. Gear Shoutouts

• Chorus armband: Best new fitness tech for accurate HR, especially for interval/threshold work.
• Wahoo KICKR RUN treadmill: Smoother than anything; handles steep inclines beautifully.
• Janji clothing: Hosts love the multi short (David), women's long bra and cargo pant (Megan); Janji Collective offers lifetime discounts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On injury & adaptation:

  "Three days off solves most problems... Three days off saves three weeks, saves three months." (10:36, David)

• On shoe science:

  "I think the main driver... was shoe weight mixed with whatever tech was then put into it." (27:39, David)

• On bicarb supplementation:

  "Just order the elephant dose, then cut it into thirds or halves, and give it a try." (39:56, David)

• On the placebo effect:

  "One of the reasons I think bicarb is effective is solely because you get in the routine and then you feel as if you have body armor." (59:38, David)

• On logic vs heart:

  "Logic isn't motivating. The whole point is doing something that scares you... Dreaming illogically." (79:15, David)

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Hope Core Corner: Recommendations for the Soul

[29:13] David’s “Hope Core” media for good vibes:

• Films: Palm Springs, Interstellar, Into the Spider-Verse
• TV: New Girl, The Good Place, Parks & Rec
• Books: Station Eleven (book & miniseries), Project Hail Mary (Andy Weir)
• Poetry: Mary Oliver (Megan)

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Time-Stamped Key Segments

| Time | Topic | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:10 | Vitamin D supplementation in athletes | | 06:32 | Deodorant woes: Gendered scents discussion | | 08:39 | Training updates: Injury pivot, smart rest | | 12:05 | Shockwave therapy: "childbirth-level" pain | | 14:40 | Reflections on racing mindsets & injury | | 22:22 | Shoe nerd news: Biomechanics researcher to HOKA? | | 25:28 | Trail super shoe study: Norda vs HOKA Tecton X3 | | 32:12 | Bicarb at altitude: Morton mini-tab cycling study | | 42:55 | New CBD study: 300mg trial in athletes | | 49:15 | Q: Why does biking hurt? Biking vs running adaptation | | 54:15 | Q: Doubles (two-a-day workouts): Are they better? | | 60:37 | Q: Stairmill for cross-training | | 64:26 | Q: Heart rate zone confusion | | 66:46 | Q: Can thinking calming thoughts lower my heart rate? | | 73:10 | Q: How to use Gnomeo? Recovery vs. performance dosing | | 76:08 | Q: Should I add intensity if my aerobic/threshold HRs are far apart? | | 79:05 | Q: Should I follow logic or heart when signing up for a 100-mile race? |

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Tone & Takeaways

David and Megan cultivate an energetic, supportive, and science-anchored tone—balancing evidence with humor and vulnerability.
Whether you're an elite runner, aspiring athlete, or passionate about exercise science, this episode leaves you with practical tips, nerdy details, and the wisdom to listen to both your body and your heart.

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End Note

Key message:

• Respect recovery.
• Supplement wisely (do your labs).
• Seek joy in your process—dream illogically, and don’t be afraid to get a little smelly along the way.
• “Dream illogically”: Maybe the best running advice of all.

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Fan Favorite Moments

• David’s full-body deodorant crisis.
• The “shockwave therapy = childbirth” metaphor and subsequent banter about tearing up exam tables.
• Megan’s real talk: “Push your levels above 50 [vitamin D].”
• The happy wank, mozzarella stick pile, and ongoing “boot off, Voltaren on” jokes.
• Rapid-fire Q&A with blunt truth bombs and candid, science-backed takes.

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For full training plans, science deep-dives, and bonus banter: check out the SWAP Patreon and connect with the community!

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SWAP Episode 294: Science, stoke, and serious (and silly) strategy for a thriving athletic life.

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[A]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday and it's getting smelly up in here on this Tuesday.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know we've addressed smell a lot recently, and I know what you're talking about here because, Megan, this little break from running, all of a sudden I am just rocking it with the smells. Yesterday I was doing the heat suit bike, which is my preferred method of activity right now because it means I put out less power. I can do low torque cycling as my foot heals, and every time I leaned down to get my water bottle, I was repulsed. It was truly terrible.

[A]

Well, the heat suit is a convenient excuse because you are making puddles on the ground, you are sweating, you are working hard, but it's an everyday life and it's compounding. I feel like it's that testosterone, that sweet, sweet testosterone that's coming out to play.

[B]

Yeah, I'm pretty hyped. You know, I feel like everything is starting to look golden for me because it's all coming from, you know, taking this little bit of time off that's forced. But I think it's been good. It's been. And, you know, biking. And the hope is back, the optimism is back, and it's mainly expressing itself through my pits.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like we should put the pits on the stages of injury, grief, and it's somewhere near the end because it's like your body is healed enough to actually smell terrible all the time.

[B]

So true. But to to be serious, like an actual recommendation that we wanted to start with today is one of the big changes I've made this winter is major vitamin D supplementation for the first time. Because I always had this issue that when I took certain types of vitamin D in the past, I would get PVCs, I would get those little feelings in my heart of premature ventricular contractions. And as a result, I thought vitamin D wasn't for me. Turns out that it was probably just the source. I was getting, like the liquid sources that I was using in the past because this year I just stepped up to a different vitamin D source. And I think that might also be pushing it because there's studies that connect vitamin D levels to just about everything. Right. Like in the literature, you can do hormones, but also anything else.

[A]

I feel like the literature is a wild west of vitamin D studies. Yeah, we've actually looked at it a bunch within studies that I've done. And. And over time, it's like you find These weird associations. I'm like, I think we're seeing other things. Actually, we did an exploratory analysis and realized that athletes that were more prone to stress fractures actually had higher levels of vitamin D. And it was likely because I went back through and realized that those athletes also probably had a prior stress fracture. And we're like, okay, we're going to take 5000ius of vitamin D. We are on the grief train. And so I feel like it's interesting to see some of those associations.

[B]

It's fascinating that you could get a confounder going the other direction. The usual way I think about it is that athletes or people that might focus on their vitamin D are more optimized in certain ways. So you might be catching health drivers that go in that direction. But, you know, it's been really game changing for me. And I'm not sure whether it's the restroom running because I am pushing myself on the bike. I mean, the heat suit is pushing me more than I am pushing myself. But my energy levels have been much better than they've been in the winter. Like, I was joking last year that I was going to do a psychedelic trip, my first one ever going into winter, because winter's a little hard on me in general. And I felt really good emotionally. And I tie it back to the imd. And yeah, I know it's, you know, many factors going on here, but it's incredibly important for athletes to think about because we were just this morning looking at a 2015 sports medicine review that looked at 2313 athletes and it found 56% vitamin D. Inadequacy, they called it.

[A]

And inadequacy, I feel like it's defined by a number of different things. Yeah.

[B]

And you're adequate no matter what. Even if your vitamin D is low, you are adequate.

[A]

You can be adequate. I feel like just get on that supplementation.

[B]

It's like Ted Lasso where it has the belief sign. We're just hitting that adequate sign out the door right now with my injury. That's all I want to do.

[A]

You're like, we're going to slap this hard. But it was defined as less than 32. And they compiled that from a number. It was a systematic review and meta analysis. And so to get that number, they're like, all these studies are using different classifications of inadequacy. And so they came up with their own number. And this is like, here's what we found as a common driver amongst the studies.

[B]

And that's quite low.32. You know, like, often we want athletes to push higher. So if you're listening to this and you're not taking vitamin D or we have to say get blood tests, Megan has to say that especially.

[A]

Please, please, please.

[B]

The MD PhD in the room has to say that. As the non MD PhD, I can say, unless you've had really high vitamin D in the past, you might want to get on that vitamin D train, especially if you're in the Northern hemisphere in winter. But this applies throughout the year because this study, it found some seasonality, but the inadequacy levels were really high in athletes, even in summer. And, you know, I think in general, throwing some substrate at it can be helpful. And often those levels are much higher than you think. So what I've done personally, and I am not suggesting this, do not do anything I say ever, is I've taken 5,000 IU a day in addition to my children's gummies.

[A]

I was just about to ask, I was like, does that actually mean you're taking 10,000 IU? Is that why you're so smelly?

[B]

I'm stepping it up.

[A]

You're taking 5,000 IU at baseline, and then you're just adding 15 children's gummies on top of it.

[B]

But you've been the vitamin D queen forever. I mean, you take obscene amount, right?

[A]

I probably take around 6,000 to 7,000 IU. That's high. I would not do that. I think. No, I don't. And I think, you know, to me, that starts to cause some nausea and issues, and I just don't like messing around with that.

[B]

Yeah, it also causes, like, risks of lawsuits for podcast listeners.

[A]

I think 5,000 is a good high place with that. And then, you know, get your blood work done and you can kind of see where you are, especially if you've.

[B]

Had blood work in the past. And, you know, you're not one of the athletes that is much rarer than iron or something that is a hyper absorber for some reason or has a ton of sources in your life. Um, but for me, I think that's what's pushing my pick game to the next level. And this study, I mean, of every study I've ever seen is one of the more shocking. Like when I looked at it, I was expecting to see 25%, to see 56%, with some geographic locations being far higher in terms of deficiency. When athletes already know of the importance of vitamin D, it's truly shocking. And when you think about it, with bone health, energy levels, possibly hormone links, or possibly just Confounders. Either way, um, I think it goes a long way. And so your source matters. As I learned, some sources don't work for me. But now that I found one that has, I think I'm bouncing off the walls.

[A]

Well, having seen athlete blood work, it's not surprising to me. Like, I feel like I see this all the time. In fact, I say, like, push your levels above 50 is usually the recommendation I give.

[B]

Yeah. And, I mean, I was in the upper 20s, low 30s, so I would have been borderline with this study.

[A]

You're a low boy.

[B]

Yeah, but I think that's normal, right? Like, based on this. Don't call me a low boy, Megan. I am so adequate.

[A]

You're like, megan, why? Actually, I feel like you just gave us your vitamin D supplementation routine. What is your deodorizing routine? Oh, do you have something to pitch on the deodorizing market?

[B]

Okay, I have learned that men's deodorant just doesn't work for me.

[A]

Yeah, I get it. I kind of. I actually respect that. Like, as a woman, I don't know if I want my man selling, like, a college lacrosse locker room.

[B]

Oh, yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Just give me something just, like, neutral and sweet and subtle. Maybe a little womanly.

[B]

How about some Axe body spray? You know, you're showing how sexuality is on a spectrum.

[A]

I know. Yeah. I'm like, do not give me acts. I think, to me, it's just, like, linked to fraternity parties. I immediately feel nauseous.

[B]

I'm like, oh, what is it like, There's a Kickinsey scale. I think it's zero to six. That determines, you know, where you lie on the sexuality spectrum. If you like Axe body spray, you want the far end of that. Not sure what the number is exactly, but we found the Dove Advanced Care Secret also works well. And this is actually going right with the secret marketing materials. Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.

[A]

Like it, too.

[B]

Why are women's deodorants so much better and stronger?

[A]

They're great. And we didn't have it for two weeks, and we got it back, and you came into the room, into the kitchen, and you're like, megan, my life is changed forever. We got the Dove back.

[B]

Does this mean that women are way smellier?

[A]

No, I actually think. I mean, I think Axe body spray actually works a lot stronger.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know, Megan. I. I just tried it. I mean.

[A]

I mean, your alternate is to do nothing.

[B]

I was using degree or something, which is Similar. I mean, it all happened probably using.

[A]

Like, degree from, like, eight years ago. It probably had no smell left.

[B]

Old Spice doesn't do shit. It makes you smell like dusty oregano. Okay, so take your vitamin D and let's get on to the episode. Here's a quick roadmap. We're going to start with a little bit on us, then Shoe nerd news. Can't wait for that. David's hope core corner.

[A]

I'm excited for this one.

[B]

Yeah, that was thrown in last second. A new study on bicarb that really pushes the science forward. A question on gels for female athletes. A quick header study on massive doses of cbd.

[A]

This was a big dose that was.

[B]

More like a scientific curiosity than any recommendation. Plus, questions on bike training. Doubles theory, an interesting sports bra strategy, the steril heart rate zones, Gnomeo use. We might even address that earlier. And lots more.

[A]

There's a lot of good stuff on here, including a whole news section. I feel like we've been enjoying doing that in 2026.

[B]

And good questions, lots going on. Very first thing is, Megan, last week you were getting ready to do your very first YouTube video. You were gonna do a big uphill treadmill session, and we had to cancel it and pivot. Why is that?

[A]

Uh, I was gonna do 12 by 5 minutes on the treadmill. I was so excited about it.

[B]

People would have loved it so much because we would have gotten so deep into training theory. It would've been great.

[A]

You know what? I was hyped for the YouTube. Dude, YouTube. I was like, I'm gonna put myself on there. I don't care. And I was stoked for it. And then my foot kind of hurt.

[B]

Your foot kind of hurt?

[A]

And I realized that I should not do something for YouTube that a normal life, just from an injury prevention standpoint. And so I pivoted. And my last run was on Tuesday a week ago. I did an uphill treadmill this weekend, but, like, really offloaded my foot just because it was at the point that it's like, you know, running is no longer joyful to try to run on something that, like, hasn't been improving. And sometimes taking five days off goes a really long ways.

[B]

And it was really minor. Right. Like, it wasn't very substantial. But I admire this so much. As a coach, obviously, this is the thing I push for. But then as an athlete, I saw something this weekend that truly broke my heart, which is what we had to pivot. The video to is me doing the heat suit bikes. And it was a little Bit about some of the mistakes I made. Just trying to be honest with the injury part of the process. And in that part of process, I went back through my videos to send director Cody to have some background B roll type stuff. And I saw November 4th me sending a video to Dr. Teddy of High Point Direct Care. Everyone in Colorado should go because he has been instrumental care and is the only reason I am able to move right now. But in that process, on November 4th, I was pointing out the injury site and like, oh, this started hurting at mile 50. It's really bad now. And I had to walk home. And then I proceeded to run on.

[A]

It for two months after he and I were like, you should get an mri, bro. And you ran on it for a really long time.

[B]

Meanwhile, you just start to feel the slightest foot whisper and you're onto the bike, which I admire so much because, like, three days off solves most problems.

[A]

And.

[B]

And three days off saves three weeks, saves three months. And I've learned that the hard way. And seeing you do that where, you know, you pivoted to the bike and then, yeah, you got to the uphill tremo this week. And just seeing, like, the confidence come back, it's just such a great reminder that no matter what your training plan says, program three days off just throughout your season, like a few different times, and you'll be golden.

[A]

I got this little happiness bump when I made that decision because I felt like I was being, like, smart and authentic to my own journey. And then I got a major happiness boost because I went out on an outdoor gravel B ride. I was like, this is so much fun. And I sent it a little hard. Some girl tried to grab my wheel in Left Hand Canyon and I was like. And then proceeded to send it more the rest of the ride.

[B]

Yeah, your heart rate was high.

[A]

And I just, like, I had that reflection out there that it's also so nice to have something to pivot to that you love and I think find some kind of cross training option. Like, for me, it's gravel biking and I might even love it more than running. And I think to me it makes that, like, pivot so much easier.

[B]

Yeah. And just, you know, whether you're doing that or just taking three days fully off, the benefit of that, it's just an adaptation time. Like, you're going to get better from that time off. It starts to be less of an adaptation time when you're doing what I'm doing right now, which is. I'm still recording this in a boot. Um, but I'M feeling hopeful.

[A]

Maybe I'm getting smellier too.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Three days might be enough.

[B]

Three days might be.

[A]

Push it in that direction.

[B]

Um, okay. Other thing is just a little update on my foot journey. It's feeling way better right now. I got shockwave therapy in very. In a focused shockwave, which is a special type of shockwave that goes above and beyond.

[A]

There's radial shockwave and focus shockwave, and different studies looking at both. And sometimes, like, one modality is better for different types of injuries, but focused is a little bit more powerful for this particular type of tear.

[B]

And from a scale of zero to childbirth. This was childbirth in terms of pain. I needed an epidural for it. It was quite bad. In retrospect, I think I might have jumped the gun a little, even though I'm working with the best foot doctor right now from Stanford and others. And then the doctor that did the shockwave was incredible. And I just. I don't know. I'm a little skeptical of myself in making that decision. But it's feeling good now, so maybe it was helpful.

[A]

Well, you told me that you tore up all the exam paper on the table as you were enduring the shockwave. I feel like if you went through childbirth, you'd, like, tear up, literally whatever's in the room. You'd be, like, taking pictures off the wall and, like, chucking across the room.

[B]

You are so tough. I have no idea. Like, this little confined pain. Right. Like, it's on your foot. You can do it. I just. Everything was just ripped to shreds. I think the doctor actually got joy out of making me feel pain.

[A]

He's like, we're going to turn it up higher. Yeah.

[B]

If you can't be a dominatrix, you become a shockwave specialist.

[A]

It actually reminds me in the middle of the YouTube filming, so Cody came and filmed your bike. You just launched your water bottle across the room at one point. Do you remember that?

[B]

I do.

[A]

It's your version. You're like, I'm going to take this picture off the wall, chuck it across the room.

[B]

And then we had a slight disagreement the next day about, you know, normal. Couple things we did actually.

[A]

It led to another rest day because it was a long disagreement. And.

[B]

And in that disagreement, you were. You were like, you just throw things across the room and don't clean them up. Who do you think cleans those up?

[A]

Like, sorry. And then we actually watched, like, a day later. There is YouTube about, like, the bias that you have about what you do around the household. I'm like, you don't even think about the gels that you throw on the ground.

[B]

But the point is, every relationship, if you ask them what they do in the relationship, adds up to, like, 140%.

[A]

Like, you order groceries from Amazon.

[B]

Hey, it's both of us, man.

[A]

It is both of us. I was like, where do you expect those gels to go? We should have that in the YouTube video just, like, interspersed part of that disagreement. It was really helpful, though. It was.

[B]

It was great.

[A]

We had the disagreement on Friday. We drove up to the mountains and had one of the most, like, wonderful weekends together. And it was great.

[B]

And we realized that if we ever want to, like, you know, makeup or whatever, first we have to take off my boot.

[A]

I was like, this is the equivalent of, like, taking off 18 bras. It was strapped on in all these different ways. I'm like, how am I supposed to take this thing off?

[B]

All I'm hearing is strap on.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

Actually, let's move on.

[A]

No, no, no. I do think so. Driving back down the canyon this weekend from the mountains, we actually had a really important discussion. I just love, like, for some reason, we've, like, driving back down the Boulder canyon, it's been like the time that we, like, just have these great life talks. To me, that's just coming together after that time in the mountains. And you talked about just reflections after western states and after javelina and how maybe you're thinking about that a little bit differently. After the western states video, your primary goal was to obliterate yourself. And I think you accomplished that at javelina and have obliterated yourself to the point that it's been now three months of struggles after the race. And how does that change what you're thinking about?

[B]

Yeah, you know, maybe it's just injury that causes these types of reflections, but I think the lesson I took from western states when I thought I was dying and I had a panic attack and all of that, that I need to go into these races to obliterate myself and everything might be the wrong reflection to take that, like, you're going to finish no matter what. Because, you know, I point paint western states as this experience of, oh, I thought I was going to die, I wasn't going to die. Maybe I was, because at javelina, you know, my foot had severe pain and it was sudden, and I was going to finish that race no matter what, and I did.

[A]

You ran on that foot for 49 miles.

[B]

Yeah. And then I suffer the consequences. And, you know, if I had DNF'd at mile 60, which is where I would have dnfed from that pain. Yes, there would be a narrative online that David's a quitter and all that, but it's like, maybe that's good for health. And so there's a balance there that I need to strike in the future, and I'm not exactly sure how to strike it. And maybe part of it is also aging where I have less of a desire now to explore those places after javelina. Like, I succeeded on my mission to obliterate myself, and I do not like what is waiting on the other end as much as I thought I would.

[A]

Yeah, it's kind of fascinating when you think about that. And I feel like as I've been like, literally sitting within the shit stew of having like, heart issues or maybe like an injury or my hamstring or things like that, I feel like your narrative and how you feel about running shifts. And then for me, it's like immediately as I start getting back into training, I feel like that feels fear starts to fade. And I'm curious as you work back into building up into running, if you're going to be like, I'm ready to obliterate myself maybe, maybe. But I think it's fair too. At the same time, you know, I.

[B]

Think the walking boot strip tees that until that's gone, I really can't judge any of my thoughts.

[A]

Well, it's a walking boot strip tease that ended in putting voltaren on after poot on first, voltaren on after.

[B]

Next piece of swap merch is a shirt that just says boot off and then voltaire on.

[A]

There should be like a long gap.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like the entire shirt worth be like, it was a good day.

[B]

Okay. And now a perfect time to transition to an ad for the feed. We're gonna have content here too. Some important conversations, so pay attention. The feed will love the proximity to boot off. Voltaire 9. Okay, the things we want to promote first go to the.com swap swip. If you're a new customer, you get 40% off your first order. Just order like $500 worth of stuff. And if you're a returning customer, you get 10% off for every $100 spent. Make sure your email's in there. The main thing we want to talk about this week is the chorus armband heart rate monitor. If you are using wrist based heart rate from your watch, that does not work like at rest, like for your resting heart rate, it's fine, but for running, it is absolutely useless for cycling, absolutely useless. It is a piece of trash.

[A]

And we always have people that are like, I am the exception to this rule. And then we look at the heart rate data and we're like, I'm sorry, you're not.

[B]

No, no. It's way too noisy. Information. So the chorus armband har8 or any of their others, but I know the feed has some in the warehouse right now, so get on that now before they sell out, because they almost always do once we talk about them.

[A]

You know what? I would go as far as to say that I think the Chorus armband might be the best piece of tech invention that we've had in the last 10 years in sport.

[B]

I think it's revolutionized the game. But 10 years would bring us to super shoes.

[A]

It would bring us to bicarb. I know, maybe I'm going to dial that back. Tech is different. Electronics said tech and not shoes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And I also said tech and not nutrition.

[B]

That's compelling. Yeah, that's compelling. I. I'm having trouble thinking of a. Something that would beat that.

[A]

Granted, Morton is kind of borderline tech. I don't really consider that nutrition. I feel like I'm kind of swallowing electronics when I do that.

[B]

It's true. And the Chorus armband pairs with your Garmin watch, which we both use Garmins or anything like that. So a great option number two is my entire personality right now is taken up by the supplement Gnomeo.

[A]

It's actually true.

[B]

I don't know what happened. We've been talking about Gnomeo for a while. We've talked about big studies with Gnomeo and other. We've done whole reviews. But all of a sudden, last week I had a eureka moment seeing it, how it's being used in the pro fields a little bit and hearing rumors. And I wrote an article for Patreon and, you know, I'm gonna write one for the feed too. And I think that this shit might go beyond performance. In fact, I don't think it's a performance supplement as much as Bicarb is. I think it's a health and recovery supplement more than anything. And so I wanna promote Gnomeo, that big old broccoli dose, because I think it's good.

[A]

Well, you told me this week that it was from broccoli rabe instead of. Is that how you say it? Is it broccoli rabe or broccoli rabe?

[B]

I think it's broccoli rabe, which is.

[A]

The more fancy form of broccoli. In my mind.

[B]

It can also be kale and cabbage and Flamin Hot Cheetos, actually.

[A]

Did you say there's a Flamin Hot Cheetos Mac and cheese?

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, we've really gone to new lanes. That sounds amazing with our food products, but, no, I mean, how would you recommend athletes take it? Because I think this is a little bit tricky because, you know, sometimes I see that it can be more challenging for longer duration efforts, but perhaps better for shorter intensity efforts. Is that how you're structuring it?

[B]

Yeah. So if you're using bicarb, too, then. I like bicarb before, like, long runs or big threshold efforts for the most part. And Gnomeo before, like, intense sessions or just using it in a recovery context, where some listeners wrote in that they were taking it before bed, which is used in some of the study protocols, but jury's out. I think it's really good for people that are skeptical about bicarb that don't want that sodium load. Try this. Because it's broccoli. Some health influencers are using it just for health reasons. And there was a study that really pushed me over the edge that wasn't related to performance at all. Wasn't from the researchers that did Gnomeo that was looking at mitochondria and how it helps mitochondrial biogenesis, perhaps, like, the active ingredient here. And if that's the case, we might be looking at something that pushes beyond just, oh, this helps performance and more to, oh, this might make overreaching kind of impossible. And that's my dream. So, yeah, let's do it.

[A]

It also kind of tastes good.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Okay.

[A]

I had it for the first. I haven't had it in a long time. I had it on Sunday and I was like, you know what? Kind of. Maybe I'm just biased because the first taste is very strong. And I'm like, if it's this strong, it must be doing something. And so I kind of feel like it tastes good.

[B]

Okay, that brings me to a passage from my article on Patreon, and this is a counterpoint to that. Here. Here it is. We have a mechanism. We have biomechanical impacts. Do we have the performance benefits? I think it's still early in the adoption phase of Gnomeo. Unlike bicarb, which has permeated all of endurance sports, it's taken by a ton of cycling pros and a few track superstars, but it also tastes like someone ate a ton of broccoli and then dribbled a little bit of piss. Into a lemon margarita mix. So it's probably subject to the placebo effect. So I think that's a better description than you said.

[A]

It's actually, you know, my brain is like a little bit of piss, and I'm like, this tastes good in a performance context. And so maybe that's why I do think that's kind of accurate.

[B]

We're gonna leave that right there and go on to Shoe News. But before that, go to the feed.com swap SWP, get your gnomeo, your chorus armband, and then everything else there. All the gels is the best on the market. So now we're gonna do some quick news before we get to the bicarb study, which is relevant after we just talked about Gnomeo, and the very first one is some inside baseball stuff. I have no information on this other than a Strava post. I was sent this Strava post by five.

[A]

Well, you sent it to me, and I was like, this is love, is you just sending me a Strava post? And I immediately knew where you were coming from when you sent this to me.

[B]

So Wilder Hookamper, who was the lead author of the main study, we talked about the number one study of the year on the Puma R3 running shoe. Um, he's a brilliant person in the field of biomechanics, shoe design, things like that.

[A]

And he was the initial. He led some of the initial studies on the Nike alphafly and kind of pioneered this, like, you know, approach for looking at how super shoes are changing the game within research and was previously here. I actually shadowed him for a day at Colorado, and he was awesome. I loved him. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't realize you shouted him.

[A]

Yeah, he was great.

[B]

That was awesome.

[A]

When I was looking at PhD programs, I was looking here at Colorado at Integrative Physiology and then at Stanford, too, and worked with him for a day. And I was like, this guy's great.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. I totally forgot that. But, yes, he's very, very kind, too. And to. To be the lead author on our favorite study of the year, no matter what field that's in, I think it points out just how important this person is. And the reason this is relevant is that he's also a great runner. And on Strava, he was at the HOKA team training camp where all the HOKA athletes like Hans Troyer, who just signed, were there running together. And he was there as well. And so I don't have any confirmation. I haven't seen anything online, but if this means that he is a part of the HOKA operation now. Then I am putting all of my investment in hoka. You know, I've shot on HOKA a lot in the past for various things, but if you hire the best guy in the world, what's coming down the pipeline after this is going to fully change the game.

[A]

In fact, it is so relevant to me that I'm kind of surprised a Strava wasn't private. It reminds me, actually, when I, like, worked with Lululemon on the Further project, they were like, all of your Stravas have to be private. And so I would go up to Vancouver and have private Stravas for, like, four days. And it kind of pained my soul because to me, Strava is so much fun. It's like, where I put pictures and it's kind of like the primary social media outlet that I use. And I'm like, he should have been private.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, this is just so cool. To me. It's cool. In fact, it reminds me a little bit of. In the finance world, there are entire firms that will write reports on companies and then short the stock. So, like, you'll. You'll do an expose on a company, then short the stock. On the flip side, those same companies are sometimes now juicing stocks by writing positive things about them. Now I'm going to invest in Deckers. It's like a form of insider trading. And then just publicize this after the podcast.

[A]

But, you know, here's the sad reality. If it's for the trail team specifically, how much do you think it matters? Like, you know, we're seeing HOKA on the feet. On the feet of, like, you know, so many top people within the world. Like, do you think trail shoe technology, like, and maybe it's trail shoe. Maybe it's. Maybe they're thinking about him for the road shoes. Who knows? Do you think that's actually going to drive?

[B]

Like, oh, absolutely.

[A]

You're like, I believe. I'm hitting that belief.

[B]

I said it all. Just give someone like this, you know, a treasure chest to do their thing and you're going to totally change the game. And if that's what's happening, it'd be so funny if he was just there and happened to do a group run with him.

[A]

Yeah, he's just, like, explaining.

[B]

I could have just emailed him, but I wanted to speculate and give him props. Right. Give him his flowers and give HOKA their flowers if they hired him. And if HOKA didn't hire him, you should you should pay him like one of those, like, signing bonuses now that the players are getting in college football.

[A]

True.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or college football coaches.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, Jim. Jim Harbaugh. Yeah, the. Or John Harbaugh. One of the. One of the Harbaugh brothers just got a $20 million contract to coach the New York Giants. So coaching's paying off. That's what we should be paying Wilder. Next up on shoes. This is a little bit more sciencey from Jeffrey Burns, who's a top PhD in this space. He did one of the first shoe breakdowns I've seen on trail shoes. So we've seen these in road shoes where we'll do single athlete case studies measuring oxygen consumption in different shoes. On the treadmill. He did them on the treadmill on a flat grade and an uphill grade. And he tested three different shoes. Uh, one, the control shoe, was the normal Keurag, which is very light. Significantly, it's a very, very light shoe. Next up was the Norda 005, which doesn't have a plate, but has an advanced foam and is also light. And then third was the Hoka Tecton X3, which is a little bit heavier. It's like 50 grams heavier, but it does have a plate. And he measured all three in those conditions.

[A]

And to me, the results were surprising. So when I first look at this, I was like, oh, the Tecton is going to win. It's got a plate, it's going to be the fastest. And they use the Keurag as what they called the control shoe just because it' designed for, like, super, super shoe trail technology. And the results came in and the NORA was the best. Norda was the best.

[B]

And I think this confirms all my biases. So, Megan, just like before with Wilder, I want you to give me my flowers. I want you to give me my treasure chest. Because. Because the main driver, in my opinion, and Dr. Burns would disagree with this based on his caption, was shoe weight mixed with whatever tech was then put into it. So the Keurag was the lightest and it was like the zero percent shoe. And the NORDA gave a few percent on top of that, which is same weight but better foam. And then the Tecton was kind of in the middle, where it gave some benefit, but not a ton. And the Tecton significantly, is way heavier, though it's not a heavy shoe. The Tecton weighs similar to all the other trail super shoes. It's just the other two are very light. I think what we're seeing here is that trail shoe weight. Does play a much bigger role than some of the past studies have said. And some of the researchers even think, because when you actually put it on the feet of athletes who are trying to go fast, shoe weight determines oxygen consumption more than these cross sectional studies where you're measuring control shoes that just aren't real world shoes.

[A]

And again, this is done in one athlete, in one test. Granted, Jeff Burns is very rigorous, and.

[B]

That'S how a lot of these tests work.

[A]

And it, to me, it's like, I trust these results, especially because we don't have a ton of other data to rely on. And I was surprised also by the magnitude of the findings. So compared to the Keurig, the tecton reduced oxygen consumption by 1.6%. And then the NORDA was even more on top of that. So compared to the keurig, it was 3.2% reduction in oxygen consumption.

[B]

So very exciting. And maybe the sign here is, go get yourself a NORDA if you're looking for that next shoe.

[A]

I was excited to see that, actually. Maybe I have some, like, implicit shoe bias because the NORDA looks a little chunky to me, but I did not expect to see that.

[B]

No, they sent a shoe and it didn't quite fit me, so I wasn't able to run it as much as I wanted to. But it was incredibly comfortable. And it reminds me a lot of the old school fast road shoes like Nike Lunar Racer style, where I love the Lunar Racer. A single layer of advanced foam. Much more advanced foam than the Lunar Racer. Well constructed, light, and, you know, they're having great athlete results, too. And Jason Schlarb is a big part of their team development. And I love Jason and trust him with my life. And so it's really exciting to see this because they're like a smaller company that I think should be a big player. I think NORDA is going to be the next shoe. I try when I'm thinking about, you.

[A]

Know, stepping it up, which is exciting. I feel like we should also replicate this and have the athletes run through a river or creek and then have them get on the treadmill because the Hokatecton absorbs water. And I feel like those results would be kind of shocking.

[B]

So true.

[A]

If it got real heavy.

[B]

Okay. Want to do David's Hope core corner?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Maybe not. You have, like, a lot of things. You got a lot of hope this week.

[B]

Rapid fire. Rapid fire. Rapid fire. So I heard the word Hope core for the first time this past week, which is just the idea that a piece of art that gives you hope. And I think we all need that right now. Right?

[A]

Yeah. You're like, I'm going to take that piece of art off the wall during my shockwave therapy and just launch it across the room.

[B]

Exactly. So I'm going to read these pretty quickly, but I want to just point them out in case you've missed them. First up is the movie Palm Springs. A lot of people have not seen it. It is life changingly good. Go watch it now. Number two, Interstellar. It's kind of a dad movie in a lot of ways because you know, space dads, but incredibly touching and beautiful. Try that out. And next up is maybe a little bit of a different recommendation. I watched this as Megan Redd into the spider verse. It's a Spider man movie that I am not into that sort of thing usually. It just kind of bores me. Same.

[A]

I was like, I'm gonna read my book. And then you know what? You were laughing over there next to me in bed and I was like, this movie seems great.

[B]

It's funny.

[A]

Why didn't I get on the street.

[B]

Has so much heart. And I was watching alone, not with our kids, shockingly. And they got won an Academy Award, I believe. So it's not like this is a small little film. It just points out that it is wonderful. And the next up is some shows. New Girl Amazing. The Good Place, Amazing. Parks and Rec. All kind of of the similar vibes. If you haven't watched any of those fully, God, you're in for so much joy. I wish I could watch them for the first time again.

[A]

You watched New Girl on the treadmill and I feel like you went through all the seasons of New Girl and then got pretty depressed when you were at the end. You're like, how am I gonna fill this void?

[B]

I restarted it from the beginning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, final two recommendations here. I'm gonna cut the list.

[A]

You are shortening it.

[B]

I am shortening it. One that so many people missed. Station 11. It's great as a book, but as a miniseries on hbo, I think about it every day. Like I. I know that's strange. Like it. It always comes back to me. And it ends so beautifully. It's worth a try.

[A]

Do you smell your armpits? And then you're like, mm, the apocalypse.

[B]

Yeah, I guess that is how I would spell in the apocalypse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man, that's a great callback there.

[A]

Like I'm gonna have high testosterone when our world's over.

[B]

And finally everyone has kind of read this. But if you're someone that doesn't read that much. You haven't read any books recently. You like Science Project? Hail Mary. It's by the author, Andy Andrew Weir, I believe that did the Martian. Just truly wonderful. They're making a movie out of it. Get on the book before that comes out. You want to go on to the bicarb article? Yeah.

[A]

I liked Hope Corner. Are we gonna do that again?

[B]

There's more in there, so maybe we should do another one next week.

[A]

Can I have mine too? We can just start finding the little things. Yes. Yes, Promise.

[B]

All of the things that you're into usually involve deep sadness at times.

[A]

Wait, what?

[B]

Right. You've been telling me about. You're really into a beautiful author poet. But a lot of things. Like, she's gone through a lot.

[A]

Oh, Maggie Smith. She's a great. I like. You just don't appreciate poetry the same way that I do.

[B]

No, no, I appreciate it so much.

[A]

I appreciate it so much. You're like, don't send me poems.

[B]

I mean, Mary Oliver is kind of of like hope core.

[A]

Yeah, I liked. We named Ollie, our little guy after Mary Oliver. And as I was in labor and delivery, you're like, let me read her work. You're like, need to understand this.

[B]

Okay, onto the bicarb article. It's called the effect of Sodium Bicarbonate Mini Tablets in a Carbohydrate hydrogel on Prolonged High Intensity Cycling Performance in Metabolism in Acute Normobaric hypoxia.

[A]

That title has a lot going on. I feel like it could actually be simplified by taking sodium bicarbonate mini tablets and a carbohydrate hydrogel and just being like, we used Morton.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Uh, yeah. It is kind of like a long definition for just saying they use the Morton tabs.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like, you can make this title a lot simpler.

[B]

Um, but very simple design. 14 tran male cyclists. They did a double blinded crossover study. So all the athletes got the intervention and the placebo. And so they did three different trials. One was a familiarization, then the experimental or the placebo. And they did it at 1850 meters, simulated altitude, which correlates with 6069ft of elevation.

[A]

And the reason they wanted to do this was we've had a lot of bicarb studies that are looking at the benefits of bicarb on performance at sea level, but we actually haven't had a lot at altitude. And their theory was that, you know, with live high train low effects, there's a lot of places in the world like Fort Collins or places over in Europe where it's actually hard to replicate that in actuality. Like, it's hard to live in Fort Collins and train low because there's nowhere low to go.

[B]

Why did you choose Fort Collins?

[A]

They chose Fort Collins. Oh, they chose Fort Collins in their paper. Yeah. They use this as, like, part of the rationale as to why they were doing this. Maybe because it's also like, like, raise the Fort Collins or. I think they might have used Colorado Springs. Yeah, Yeah. I always. Why do I always confuse the Colorado?

[B]

I like Fort Collins. That would be such a great thing.

[A]

I know. I swear. I'm always like. In my brain, I'm always like, the Olympic Training center lives in Fort Collins.

[B]

I had to call it out because I usually am like, I'll just let that slide. I didn't see it actually in the study, but it's like. Like, they chose Greeley, Colorado.

[A]

They chose these beautiful European training camp locations on Fort Collins. Actually, Foco Fort Collins is fucking awesome. That's my hot take.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

But in my mind, I also attribute that awesomeness to them having the Olympic Training center and. Nah, it's in Colorado Springs.

[B]

Is this study sponsored by the tourism bureau of Fort Collins?

[A]

It really is.

[B]

Okay. But the big finding here was that it had a 1.2% performance improvement relative to placebo over a 40 kilometer time trial. And that is pushing the limits of the durations of these studies, which is pretty fascinating. So bicarb obviously works in the studies on very short events, like three or four minutes. And there's tons of work there. We have always argued that you're going to see it works better and better the farther you go, or at least works more than people say it does. And yet another 40 case study, this one in altitude, which introduces another stress that pushes us in that direction more that it we're seeing nothing to dissuade us from that yet.

[A]

They actually had a great figure in this paper. And this is where we need to get our podcast on YouTube so we can be like, here's the figure. And they chunked the performance up into quartiles from like, you know, 0 to 10 kilometers, 10 kilometers to 20 kilometers and so on. And what they found actually was that there was a significant increase in mean watts differential from the third time point to the fourth time point. And so the bicarb was really working well at the end of the time trial. And to me, I'm like, what happens if you chart that out to like, 50 kilometer cycling time trial, 60 kilometer 70 kilometer, 80 kilometer. And would love to see, you know, kind of the magnitude of increased time and bicarb use.

[B]

The hard part becomes why exactly is that happening? Is that happening because those athletes are saving just a little bit in the first five or ten minutes? Right. And thus it expands to at one hour, but then it would vanish by the time it becomes more of an endurance event. And you're not pushing as much. From the beginning, we don't know, but in coaching, in personal experience, we've seen that this does seem to help. And that's, I love that part of the study that the performance difference chart got bigger. Just visually you could tell at 30k and 40k relative to 10k and 20k. And while some of those weren't significant, it's enough to just push it, huh? Maybe we're seeing something interesting there, that there is a increasing benefit or at least not a diminishing one that you would expect based on the rationale that this only works for short distances that we will get every single time we talk about this, like we're trying to give you secrets. And all the time we'll have people like re coming to our comments saying like, that's wrong. And I'm like, okay, real world. If we even don't care about studies, which studies seem to indicate this might be a thing, it's like athletes are doing this in the real world and that's probably for a reason.

[A]

The other pushback that we get too is like, oh, this is only for elite athletes. And this was a study not done in elite athletes. It was done in like well trained cyclists, but not elite cyclists. And what I like to, I mean, I feel like they did such a great job with the figures in this paper is they also graphed the individual data points from placebo to bicarb use. And some of the strongest slopes that you could see in terms of perform performance improvement came from those at lower watts and athletes taking longer time to complete the time trials. And I thought it was really interesting to see that.

[B]

Yeah, those are pretty high watts. Still not, not like pros.

[A]

But that's not watt. That's, that's time that you're looking at. Oh, no, no, I have a figure in here.

[B]

There's a figure in our outline.

[A]

It's. That's 4,500. That's, that's time.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, you're like, they're putting out 4,500 watts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, maybe power.

[A]

That's house.

[B]

I need to go make myself feel better in Fort Collins.

[A]

I'm sure there's a lot you can pleasure yourself with in Fort Collins.

[B]

That's what it's known for. But on the flip side, they're. My one concern with the study is that the placebo was not matched for sodium. So if bicarb works in these longer events, it might just be from an increase in serum sodium. And some of the past studies I've seen shows that for whatever reason, serum sodium actually increases as the duration goes longer. If you're looking at like 40k and we don't know exactly why that is, it might just be the concentration mechanism of dehydration. But if you're not matching the sodium, maybe all we're seeing is that a big sodium load causes a slight performance benefit in these hard efforts for some reason that we're kind of unaware of.

[A]

And I think the other tricky thing too, on top of sodium load, is that this was done in cyclists. And cyclists are not getting the GI jostling that runners are getting. And they found that there was no difference in GI symptoms, but they did have this whole table of GI symptoms in placebo and the bicarb group. And literally everyone had GI symptoms. The placebo. The placebo group was like, we got flatulence, we got nausea, we got like. It was kind of wild to see them all listed out.

[B]

Yeah. If people were actually being honest about their GI systems.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was listed out by participant, and I was like, get every one of these participants into a GI doc.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's just.

[A]

Just training.

[B]

Being human is flashlight, and they're synonyms. But to give you some background into how these outlines work, I wrote the initial write up of this study and I said, placebo was appearance matched maltodextrin and it had sodium. All Megan did is she came in, put that little picture in that I messed up earlier and then wrote a comment on the had sodium thing and said, did it. Didn't correct me or anything, just said, did it. Like a little pity did it.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Are we still fighting?

[A]

I wanted us to circle back to it. It didn't. I saved us.

[B]

You did save us. I almost fucked that up.

[A]

But you so kindly gave me that time yesterday to review the podcast and to do deep dives and all these studies because you were watching the kids. And so you know what? I'm grateful for that.

[B]

Okay, so moral of the story is, you know, bicarb does make a big difference. The Morton bicarb is quite expensive. As always. We say, just order the elephant dose, and then you can cut it into thirds or even or halfs if you're thirds if you're a smaller person, halves if you're not so as small, and give it a try. There are other brands on the market that are less expensive now that you can also try. We don't have personal reports on those. But bicarb kind of is the next level. You just need one of these methods of dosing that doesn't cause GI symptoms. Like, you can't just take baking soda. And if you try it, you'll probably see what a lot of listeners see that we get messages about all the time. It makes a pretty big difference. Right away, you get that eureka moment that maybe Gnomeo doesn't give or almost anything else in training.

[A]

And they did the dosing here at 0.3 grams per kilogram of body weight. And that's actually pretty high. That's like the standard recommendation of dosage. And studies have used that consistently now just to stay, you know, aligned with prior literature. But that's high.

[B]

It is high.

[A]

Like, for me, that I'd be taking, like, bicarb 15, and I probably take more like bicarb 8 in actuality, and I feel like it gives me less jitters and less GI side effects to do that. And so you can kind of play around with the dosing. But I don't always, always think it has to be the dosing that's done in studies.

[B]

Yeah, I think smaller doses can work. And the hard part is the studies are driving how people use it, because we're studying this, but not every study is saying, all right, now let's also test lower amounts. And thus we're kind of unsure if lower amounts work. We think they do, and we think it's kind of the best of all worlds. And actually, Gnomeo is fascinating in that the studies that looked at Gnomeo dosage did test multiple levels of it, and they found that the middle level is better than the high level. So, like, if you take. Take two of the Nomeo shots, which are, I think, are $7 a piece, you get worse outcomes for blood lactate reductions during hard training than if you just take one. And that's fascinating to me, but maybe bicarb also has different dose response curve relationships than what we're seeing, and so try a lower dose first. That'll also make it less expensive and more reasonable to take for your hard workouts. Yeah.

[A]

I'm curious to see how this research evolves with time. I feel like we still need to, like, figure out you know, why the heck is Killian? And I think this actually he's onto something. Why is he redosing this at utmb? Are we seeing something there? You know, I, I don't know.

[B]

Did he do it at Western states?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I'm unsure and I don't know where exactly you would even test this for ultras. Like 40k is kind of pushing the limits of what you can do in a lab. So are you going into the real world looking at this? We might not know the answer to that question for quite a while. And in the meantime, my thing is like always be on the lookout for places you have an advantage over the field for a year or two. And I think this might be even multiple years because every time you talk about it, you get shot down by people that are not giving you any evidence or saying absence of evidence is evidence. It's like, no, actually that's not how evidence works. And I think that might be a place for an advantage. And as always, scoop those up because you don't get them for long.

[A]

Literally. Scoop them up. Yeah, scoop it up and slurp it.

[B]

Okay, next topic. I think we should skip the gel topic today. It's just a lot. We're already at 40 minutes and I think we talk about it a lot and let's get some more details on it.

[A]

Okay. We can definitely, you know, we were going to talk about. So I had a question from an athlete I coach actually who just read Stacey Sims book Roar, which I think is great.

[B]

Amazing book.

[A]

Yeah. And asking about, you know, Roar talks about some of the complications of gels and how they might cause GI side effects and some other things. And I actually, I think agree. I would love to actually email Stacy and see if she's kind of like thought about. I used to work with Stacy at Stanford and she's awesome, she's brilliant. And I think sometimes the challenge is Roar was written in 2016 and there's been a lot of new nutrition products products on the market since. And I'm just curious to see like what. How her thoughts have evolved.

[B]

Yeah. So we'll follow up on that, we'll report back. We're doing hard hitting investigative journalism on the SWAT podcast now. Looking at Strava and emailing a person every once in a while.

[A]

And we get so into it too. We do.

[B]

Okay now is a really fun quick hitter CBD study. We got this from a podcast listener. It had 12 athletes and it did 300 milligram of either a placebo or.

[A]

CBD which is a metric fuck ton of CBD.

[B]

Yeah. I was going online. Most of the CBD supplements I saw are like 10 to 25 milligrams. Yeah.

[A]

And I feel like we used to have studies on CBD supplements all the time and they've kind of slowed down. Like, I feel like the popularity of CBD supplements has decreased. And maybe it's because athletes were taking like 10 milligrams.

[B]

Well, maybe it's because the researchers taking 300 and they're also like, you know what? I don't need to write papers anymore.

[A]

I'm chill. I feel so good.

[B]

But to be serious, the reflection on CBD when it was all the rage back in like 2018, 2019, 2020, was that, oh, well, it might help calm me down. And then the counterpoint was it does nothing. And I kind of lean towards the it does nothing camp. Except for the fact that some people swear by it. And if people swear by it, it clearly does something for some people. And maybe the issue is what this study pointed out. We just weren't looking at high enough doses.

[A]

Doses.

[B]

So they dose them with 300 milligrams procedure or CBD. And then they had them sit quietly for two hours.

[A]

Well, they had them sit quietly for 2 hours and then they knew they were doing a 2 mile time trial after that. And I feel like doing a two mile time trial is stressful at baseline. And hanging out with your thoughts for two hours beforehand is kind of a lot, you know, because now that we have kids, I'm like, sign me up.

[B]

I know with two young kids, I'm like, I would pay a lot to be a part of this study.

[A]

Like, David's like, I'd run a hundred miles on a track if I could take. Sit quietly for two hours beforehand.

[B]

And the significant findings here were that there the athletes reported 21% more calm and 22% more relaxed with 8% lower RPE at mile one, but no difference in performance. So clearly not a performance supplement based on this, but maybe a relaxation supplement. And what I loved of this study is that every athlete knew the intervention condition just from how they felt. I think, I don't think it was taste. I. I'm not sure. CBD supplements probably taste the same.

[A]

It seemed like the placebo was equivalent in that case. And the athletes were like, we just feel chill.

[B]

Yeah. And so if they're all identifying it, anyone who thinks CBD does nothing, it clearly does something. It does change the way you feel because you can identify it. That might also change the results and how you like, report them. Perhaps. Um, but I don't know, maybe CBD does have a place for anxiety management for athletes. Um, I doubt it because of the risk of contamination that unless something has, you know, really good standards, you're worried about getting thc. And because THC at certain levels is banned in competition, if you do this all the time and there's any contamination, you might be doping.

[A]

Well, the THC limit was actually recently pushed up from WADA from 50 nanograms familiar all the way up to 150 nanograms per milliliter to get at the fact that like, you know, sometimes they're catching athletes and they're like, are they taking this in competition or they just take this 10 days before competition?

[B]

Or is it CBD?

[A]

Or is it CBD? But I feel like with 300 milligrams of CBD, which is a lot, I'd actually be worried about reaching some of those like THC levels.

[B]

If it's hemp derived source, you might not even be at risk of that at all. So I don't know. CBD is back on the table. All I'm saying, we, we never talk about it, we're not into it. Um, but it might be an interesting world and I'd love to know long term outcomes of doing such high doses. But to see, you know, this much of an, you know, decreased senses of anxiety, it's exciting. And especially for athletes that might have performance anxiety or, or other people that just deal with things in general that require knocking off the edge.

[A]

Well, in general was where my brain was going, because something, I don't know, I feel like if I feel 21%, it's like some part of me is like, okay, this anxiety might be productive for me, like from a performance perspective. And I think there's athletes where like anxiety clearly is not productive from a performance standpoint. But like, sometimes to me it's tied to excitement, it's tied to that like adrenaline and that fire. And I'd almost be worried that like reducing that this much might actually impact performance, like for me. But I feel like in other areas of life, like, you know, I always, I haven't loved public speaking or like giving big presentations. And I worked through that, but like maybe three or four years ago I'd have been like, give me that cd, Let me be calm.

[B]

Yeah, isn't. It's just interesting. I wouldn't recommend doing anything based on the study, but we wanted to flag it because kind of fascinating. And we also don't know that much about CBD dosing. So whether this is high for people that are in that world, we don't.

[A]

Yeah, CBD is kind of a wild west in terms of, like, supplements, quality of supplements, dosing, you know, contamination, what it's linked with. And so, you know, honestly, I try to tell athletes to, like, work with a therapist, do cognitive behavioral therapy, other tools first, and then use this as like a third, fourth, fifth line kind of thing.

[B]

Some men will take a wheelbarrow of CBD rather than go to therapy.

[A]

It's a very true statement.

[B]

Next up. Well, actually, before we get to questions, questions, let's do a promo for Patreon. So many good training plans right now. We had that Know Meo article that really details everything you need to know about the science and how to consider using it. A track training plan. You're going to do some training plans coming up for postpartum return, which is really spicy. And I'm so proud of you.

[A]

Yeah, I just leaned into it. I was like, you know what? We should just do it. And I'm excited. Like, I think there's not a ton of great information out there. And it does make me feel, like, a little scared to put that down on paper, but I. It just felt spicy. For whatever reason, I'm like, you know what? Faithful.

[B]

It's gonna be so fun. And then also we'll do heart rate zones at the $10 per month tier. We had to move that up. But as always, you can get in for free if you just tell us and you have any financial constraints in that case. That might be a loophole to all of this, but patreon.com swap swap starts at just $5 a month. 176 bonus episodes right now, and it is such a blast.

[A]

We've been loving those bonus episodes. They're so fun.

[B]

So, so good. Okay, let's get on to questions. Um, we have a good amount of time for em today.

[A]

Yeah, I'm excited. I feel like a lot of times we get and we're like, we have time for two questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we'll probably. Maybe we'll just answer two questions. We'll go on such large tangents.

[B]

We'll see. I'm feeling good about these. Okay, first one. Does biking have to hurt? The lactic acid is real. So they're talking about the lactate production that so they're feeling is the hydrogen cations. Always need to say that because if you say lactic acid on the Internet, Internet people will jump down your throat in the comments. Like, it's a good thing.

[A]

Yo.

[B]

It's like distinction without a difference. We don't need to worry about this. Don't need to police language in this space. Okay. They said the lactic acid is real. How do I push through any tips? Honestly, I dread getting on my bike because of it.

[A]

Yeah, I get this, actually. You know, my greatest fear is that I'm gonna have a running injury and have to do bike workouts.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Oh, great. Good to say that to me right.

[A]

Now, Megan, you're coming back. Well. But also, I understand it. It's like, this shit sucks, and I totally did my injury.

[B]

Not the biking.

[A]

Well, both.

[B]

But you love biking.

[A]

No, I do love biking, but I.

[B]

Do think bike workouts are hard.

[A]

I love. My favorite biking is Z2 biking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I do think there's something like bike workouts itself are hard. And most of, like, how I'm training right now on the bike is like doing my regular run workouts and having Z2 time. And there is something really spicy about being in Z4, Z5 on the bike.

[B]

Yeah. But I think this athlete is probably just talking about biking generally. If they're saying, does it have to hurt that being in Z2, pushing themselves that way with the muscular tension causes them discomfort? And on the first point, I think that this shows that biking is really good for you. Probably.

[A]

I was gonna say this is a sign. It's like when someone tells me that they hate hills and they're not strong in hills and they don't wanna do them. I'm like, guess what? We're doing hills. This is gonna make you so much stronger. And I agree.

[B]

Yeah. And the evoke endurance Scott Johnston style of, you know, hiking with a weight vest test. Their cue is that you feel constant tension in your legs and don't worry about re too much. Very similar to what you're talking about with biking. So you're likely looking at similar adaptations. This is a good thing. What can you do to help it? I think, one, there's no way past it, but through it. But two, you could do something like Gnomeo or bicarb to help you with the feelings of discomfort. Two would be thinking about your form and how you actually bike. I think think sometimes when athletes do this, they never get out of the saddle, so they're constantly having the same motion. What I would suggest to this athlete is use every opportunity you can to get out of the saddle for long enough to change your muscular recruitment patterns. Because if you watch something like the Tour de France, they do change in the saddle, out of the saddle pretty constantly. And the athletes in uae, team uae, which is a little bit strange to say, but what they've said sometimes is one of the reasons they change it in a very specific, specific pattern is they found that power output increases because of the changing muscular recruitment. And I think for athletes like us that don't bike that much, it helps to just release some of the tension and change the way the circulatory patterns work so that it feels a little bit more comfortable. I know if I don't get outta the saddle, which I can't that much right now, there's so much more tension in my legs and it gets much more difficult.

[A]

And on your taint too, you had it. You're like, for some reason on the YouTube video, you're like, I called my taint the gooch.

[B]

The gooch. I called it the gooch over and over. Why'd I do that?

[A]

I don't know. I really like it. It's a good term. For some reason, I struggled to get outta the saddle more indoors. It was just like our indoor bike fit. But outdoors I ride outta the saddle so much and I think my power profile is actually higher outdoors. And probably for that reason.

[B]

Yeah. And so this is an opportunity to build power. Um, just any way you decrease discomfort in running probably would also apply to biking and try to bring that over. Fuel. Well, um, and caffeine is your friend. Like, and good music, something that really pumps you up and gets you going. And I think that will also get the biggest bang for your buck.

[A]

Okay, playing devil's advocate here because you're like, team, never hike boy for your own training. That theory that you're talking about, about getting out of the saddle and using that as a change intention, a change in position, a little bit of a release of resistance. Could you see a similar parallel in running up a steep hill? In going from hiking to running and hiking to running back and forth, forth.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Um, pushing me to the, to the brink. I think that the problem is it is so hard to start running after you start hiking. And that transition is. Might make some athletes slower if they do it unnecessarily.

[A]

I feel a similar way, actually, when I get out of the saddle. Indoors, I feel a similar way when I get back in the saddle. Like, it feels so much harder to put out, like equivalent Watts, do you find that.

[B]

Is this just like undercut David Power.

[A]

How am I undercutting you? I'm just curious.

[B]

Um, yeah, I don't find that at all. I find the opposite that it gets much easier to put out watts when you've changed the muscular recruitment pattern. So interesting question, but yeah, biking is much harder in zone two than running is in zone two. And so when athletes say, oh, why does it feel harder? It's like it just is until you get used to it.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like it's all just concentrated within the legs too. And I think, you know, having actually like the upper body movement and running spreads it out a little bit more in a nicer way.

[B]

And bike fit applies for the same reasons. Like you kind of need a good bike fit to make that work. Next one on doubles. Hey guys, what are the benefits and downsides of running a training plan, but splitting up the workouts into two a day or even three? Does it help or hurt injury prevention? If you split a workout in two, should more duration be done just to get warmed up twice? I also heard another youtuber talk about getting two HGH spikes. So human growth hormone spikes as opposed to one. What is the actual benefit of that in the first place? And is too beneficial better? What could other physiological benefits be? Okay, that's a lot I've been wondering about just trying to make it all fit in in typical busy nurse life.

[A]

Well, there's a lot here and I feel like doubles in general. Like, the research and theory on doubles is a bit ambiguous, honestly. Like, I think we don't have a lot besides like some of the HGH theories and some of the double threshold theories which are more anecdotal even at this point.

[B]

And if you look at the hormone charts that underscore some of these recommendations, it's all kind of bullshit.

[A]

It's all over the place and it.

[B]

Just doesn't say that yet. And maybe we need more research on it. That's where I always go back to real world. What are athletes doing? And interestingly, doubles aren't a huge part of training trail training theory, but they obviously work because of their use in roads and track. Like, they are so prevalent in that space that the benefits that those athletes will usually point to is that by doing shorter singles, like not going as long in a single run, you're reducing overall glycogen demand and stress, allowing your body to rebound that glycogen, keep it more recovered throughout the day, and then also get the PM stress where you have some glycogen depletion. So you're getting some extra metabolic benefit even with full fueling. So you're kind of combining the best.

[A]

Of all worlds and I've kind of wondered how that's changed with higher carb fueling. Like, you know, a lot of athletes are doing this on easy days. And now in the world of higher carb fueling, if you're fueling a 15 mile single, you know, maybe that stress is actually changed a little bit compared to splicing it into a double.

[B]

But then you look at this, a study on injury risk. And injury risk increases from long runs most of all, or longer runs. And yes, they said only if your long run is exceeding the previous 30 days long run by more than 10%. But that same principle likely applies to long singles in general. Introduce more stress overall for injury risk than like a split double. Unless, you know, an athlete's so busy during the day that it just becomes impractical to make it happen.

[A]

And I think this is where, you know, working a busy nurse life, I feel like I actually probably would not recommend double splitting and splitting the workouts because it's like, you know, this might be great in a pro athlete context where in between the double, you're going home, you're sitting on the couch, you're having a bowl of pasta, and nursing is not at all like that. You're basically like having patients throw pasta in your face and like nursing. One of the hardest jobs out there. And so I think like, you know, going, doing this workout in the morning, going to work all day, doing a second workout in the afternoon, just sounds like a recipe actually for injury and overtraining, like more than anything.

[B]

And burnout.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that sounds so hard.

[B]

And so double theory does mostly come from professional athletes. And that's where we need to be careful. It's like, I love giving doubles, but I always give doubles as optional.

[A]

Same, actually. Yeah.

[B]

You know, because even for a pro, you just need to listen to your body to see if it's beneficial. And yeah, so you can definitely split it up. I wouldn't split it up into thirds. I don't think that's necessarily.

[A]

Thirds would be epic.

[B]

Yeah, they are never stopping running. And I think that that's, that's a little risky. But doubles, a wonderful part of training theory, could enhance stimulus. And then, and on top of that, if you start to do some doubles and you're just doing them on easy days, you feel good or doing an easy double after a workout, you have the access to a double workout. And that could be the next frontier of training theory. We've talked about this a lot before, but where you do, you know, an AM session controlled and then a PM session controlled. What I've really liked doing recently is that PM session on the uphill treadmill or cross training, um, where you get a run workout and then a PM uphill treadmill or, or cross chain workout.

[A]

And I feel like I really wanna look at actually the impacts of doing doubles on trail and ultra specific training and racing because I feel like, to me, like, how I feel on that afternoon double sometimes is very similar to like the ends of races where you're just kind of tired, you've had a lot of life, maybe you just ate like, you know, a big bowl of soup right before going out. And that like, happens to me so often. And I feel like I just get used to running in all different kinds of states and conditions. And something about that, like afternoon double, I feel like actually does kind of apply to trail and ultra training.

[B]

So true. And doubles are so cool. These, because there isn't science that really points to why exactly they are ubiquitous in pro road in track training. But they are. Thus we are probably missing something and that's a really exciting place to be. Okay, next up on sports bras. I'm not sure if this is a bad idea, but years ago I bought a sports bra that was a bit too small, but not small enough to get rid of. I usually plan my chicout runs on it because effort feels a bit higher the day before race. The race day now feels easier. Let me know. Bad idea or genius? Ha ha.

[A]

This is epic.

[B]

Yeah. Bad idea or genius?

[A]

You know what? I'm going genius.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I think they're doing some kind of like respiratory training the day before their race.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And it is priming them.

[B]

It's like the power breathe or something.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. But on their boobs. That's what we've always wanted. It's power breathing through the boobs. Imagine if we could have another orifice to breathe through. Huh?

[B]

Nipples.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Perfect. I love it. I mean, it reminds me a little bit of how I will, you know, do my jogs and ankle weights.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To then feel good after I start running. Maybe it does that a little bit.

[A]

Well, the sad reality, I feel like, is a bad sports bra kind of does feel like ankle weights on your body. It's like. Yeah, it's kind of. It's a weird sensation. You have a sports bra that's too tight. But there's actually a study called Sports Bra restriction on respiratory mechanics during Exercise done by Shalia Kip. She herself is an Olympian. And they actually found higher breathing frequency and tight bands and an Increase in oxygen consumption, which is bad. Bad for running economy in tighter running.

[B]

Bands with 1.3% increase.

[A]

So pretty significant. It's like the difference between a Norda shoe and a tecton. Yeah.

[B]

Well, good advertisement for Norda.

[A]

It's like, yeah, I mean, I like this.

[B]

I, I think anything, like any little superstition or whatever that gets in your head that you're going to be ready for some reason is a good thing. And so whatever that thing is is good. Like one of the reasons reasons I think bicarb is effective is solely because you get in the routine and then you feel as if you have some sort of body armor for the routine. Thus, you know. Yes, many would call that a placebo. I just call that good strategy.

[A]

Do you know what I think is good strategy too is I've been a routine of taking in 100 milligram cap gel from enervit before training. And it's like as soon as I have it, I can't wrap my brain around training some days, like after busy childcare or working and then I take it and. And I'm like, I'm ready.

[B]

You know what those CBD authors would say? What if a hundred milligrams is good? A thousand milligrams of caffeine?

[A]

Just try it.

[B]

Just try the wheelbarrow. Let's see what happens. Okay, uh, next one on the stairmill. Uh, would the stairmail be considered a cross training option? I mainly asked because I'm going to give a third try at the RUT50K this year and I'm scheming the training I'll need to execute this year to build towards that. This is a small piece to that puzzle.

[A]

I fucking love the stairmail. The stem is amazing. Actually back in California when it was pretty. Riding in California was just like inconvenient. Like the roads are all tight. It's like felt way more challenging to just go out the door and like ride a bike in the way that we have access to here in Colorado. And I would go to 24 Hour Fitness and use the stairmill all the time and it was great.

[B]

You would do improper things to stair mills.

[A]

I would. It was weird.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would like set it to level 20, which is the highest level. And I'd have these like two towels on my arms and just protocols.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, like ride this thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You took that boot off.

[A]

Yeah, I really did. Yeah. It was kind of embarrassing, actually.

[B]

No, I love it. Do you think we should get one?

[A]

I thought about this.

[B]

They're really expensive.

[A]

I don't know where we would put it because I don't think the ceilings in our paint cave are high enough. So you, like, stand up pretty high on the stairmill unless you're like falling off it actively. And I don't know if our ceilings are high enough for that.

[B]

We cut a hole in the ceiling.

[A]

Right? A sushi glory hole.

[B]

Yeah, a sushi glory hole.

[A]

Boom. Can you imagine the resale of our house? He would just be like, here's the Zillow picture of someone's head coming through the kitchen.

[B]

They're gonna. Because they'll know that your head is the one that went through your head inserted into the glory hole.

[A]

Thus, our house goes up. Yeah.

[B]

To be serious about this, the stairmail is a great answer to combine with the doubles theory because as a double, stairmail is wonderful. Like, I don't know if you want to be on the stair mill for 90 minutes. At a certain point, it is so much stress through your body just like muscularly, that it's just gonna wear you out.

[A]

The muscular tension actually feels higher than it does Viking.

[B]

And I think combining another cross train option or doing it after a run for 10 or 15 minutes or doing it as a 30 minute double is ideal. And so do I ask athletes to stair melt? Not that often, because I think it takes a special type of athlete. But I'm using it way, way more for professional athletes, especially professional female athletes, to build power. Like that questioner talking about the bike, I think it's a really good, easier way to say, all right, constant muscular tension, let's go. And also might be kind of specific to high kitchen thinking, though, I don't know, because it's not like the belt moves that fast.

[A]

I feel like fitness is fitness. Like, I was considering doing it for quad dipsy just because of the number of stairs the quad dipsy has. I was like, this is so specific. And then I just ran out of time to go to 24 Hour Fitness. That wasn't in the cards. But, like, you know, I felt fine running up the stairs because fitness is fitness. And so I also don't think it's necessary. But I think if you're injured, if you're looking for a fun double option and don't have a bike, like, this is a great place and.

[B]

Or just, you know, you could bike for some time and then stairmill for some time, you can have fun, fun and just mix it up.

[A]

I do think stair mill is different than StairMaster. Like, I don't think stairmasters are actually all that great.

[B]

What's the difference?

[A]

Stairmill is like a rotating staircase. Okay.

[B]

That's the stairs that never end.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The Dante's Inferno. Hell on earth.

[A]

Yes. There actually used to be something called a Jacob's ladder, which was like, literally a ladder that you could climb that was even more epic. But the stair master is. You're just kind of like, okay, so.

[B]

It kind of looks like an elliptical. Yeah, like a stair. A stair elliptical.

[A]

I never. I was like, I. Maybe I just haven't mastered it, but I'm just like, these.

[B]

You haven't stair mastered it?

[A]

I haven't mastered the StairMaster.

[B]

Okay. You didn't laugh at that. I was like, come on, Megan.

[A]

You're like, girl.

[B]

Yeah. I imagine either of these would be really good for the butt.

[A]

The butt? Yeah. He build the glutes. Yeah.

[B]

Right? Like, yeah.

[A]

So, hey, Megan, Megan, get your booty on there.

[B]

No, no, you don't need to do that. Otherwise we're gonna need to cut a hole in the sidewall. Obviously, you know, your butt's perfect.

[A]

Life goals.

[B]

I just had to make the joke.

[A]

I had to make the joke. I love it.

[B]

Okay. I'm proud of that. Um, okay, next up, heart rate. I'm so confused about my heart rate zones. My Garmin zones are wildly different than my strava zones. Garmin says my max heart rate is 188in the zones. It sets to zone two between 105 and 1 22.

[A]

Oh, my Lordy.

[B]

Does that seem right? I seem to never be able to keep my heart rate that low. Thank you. You.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds like Garmin's drunk, to be honest with you.

[B]

Sounds like trash. Yeah. Garmin zones are sometimes very strange. I think they might be referring to something different in their zone 2. It varies, but sometimes they tell athletes that their zone twos are this low and your zone two is not that low. In fact, if your max heart rate is 188. For real, like, you've seen that in the real world on non risk based heart rate, that likely means your last threshold heart rate is upper 1/70s ish. Though it's tough to tell. It could be mid 1/70s, which means that your zone 2 cap is probably 1:55 or so. Um, and that's. That's taking a lot of estimations from doing thousands of these heart rate zones for people. But I don't know what garment's thinking there. Strava zones are better.

[A]

Um, still pretty poor, actually. I should go see what my strava zones Are I remember looking at them and being like, my zone, like wildly. My zone two is wildly off.

[B]

It's getting better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I don't want to hate on it for being off by like four or five beats. That's close. Because, you know, we're not doing lab tests. I don't know if my zones are always that close. But yeah, there's a lot of misinformation on Zone 2 online in general that says it's, it's super low or tests that indicate it's super low low. And it's not. Like, unless an athlete is just metabolically needs work no matter what. Like, then yes, they're gonna be told that their LT1 is low. But for almost every athlete, like your real world, zone two will be higher. And it depends on the exact numbers. In fact, on Patreon I had a whole thing that was like, okay, instead of setting heart rate zones, all you need to know is the heart rate you usually get to in your intervals. And from that, here's your zone to, um. And that's basically how you can view it. And no1 is 105 to 122 unless their max heart rate is in the like upper one forties.

[A]

In fact, one of my favorite pieces of like work that you've done on Patreon is putting out like a series of races like marathon, 50k, 50 mile, a hundred k, a hundred mile and breaking down what zones you should think about for racing. Um, and I think that's like such a great way to think about. Like we get that question all the time. It's like, you know, how should I structure my heart rate if I'm thinking about 100 mile range racing? And how does that change over the duration of a race too? Because like, you know, when you start a hundred miler, like, you know, there's instead of heart rate drift, you actually usually have heart rate decline. Yeah. Um, and so I think that's helpful to see.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Hurry's just so helpful to have. I mean, so much of my own growth coincides with being like aware of my heart rate and not looking at it because it just helps me calibrate my feel.

[A]

Do you look at it on the treadmill?

[B]

Yeah, all the time.

[A]

Here's the thing is, if I don't have heart rate on the treadmill, I get so bored.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

Because I'm like, I find myself like constantly looking at it and like trying to get it lower. And it's like this whole game that.

[B]

I play, there's like for context for our listeners, we have a TV to look at. You do not watch tv. The TV is off. Instead you just watch your heart rate.

[A]

No, no, I listen to music.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And watch my heart rate.

[B]

But the point being, the limiting factor, you're like, I am so bored unless I can look at this number. That doesn't change.

[A]

Yeah, I mean sometimes it changes.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

I'm like, oh my God. I went from 135 to 137.

[B]

But then when it goes down, it's like the ball dropping on New Year's Eve. You just go crazy.

[A]

Well, there's like. It's actually kind of funny to find the patterns. Like if I take a drink, like the act of me breathing actually reduces my heart rate for like 15 seconds and it actually goes up after. Yeah. So it's just kind of fun to find the pattern.

[B]

Well, that brings us to the next question. David, Megan, huge fan of your show and a new Patreon member. Love the content. Over the past five weeks, I've been replacing one of my easy runs each week with a Zone 2 to Zone 3 Drift uphill treble run. We've wrote about those on Patreon and I am like loving it. One very interesting thing I'm noticing is that when I'm looking at my heart rate. Haha Megan. I can get my heart rate to drop about 4 to 5 beats per minute based on what I am thinking about. For example, sometimes I can think of some sort of intense no pain, no gain thoughts and my heart rate will rise to lower zone 3 too early. I can then start thinking of something a lot calmer. As a former baseball player, I can think of flow state when coach used to hit me ground balls. Sounds weird. I know. And my heart rate will drop by about 4 to 5 beats per minute within 30 seconds. Seconds. Any thoughts?

[A]

Agree. I feel so seen. This is like the story of my life. If I'm carrying stress with me, I see it reflected in the heart rate on my runs.

[B]

And does that come from like intrusive thoughts or passing thoughts that you have?

[A]

It depends. Like sometimes it's good stress. It's like healthy stress. And I can't like sometimes when I feel that way that my heart is like drifting four to five beats higher. I often associate it with not being able to feel the same feelings on a run. Like it's almost like a run feels so effortless and flowy because it's coming from a place of more adrenaline. And I feel like I often race in this state, too.

[B]

Yeah. And sometimes when I think of races or hype, it gets high.

[A]

Oh, yeah. If I, like, visualize myself in a race, I can, like, see it bump up. Yeah.

[B]

The question this points out to me is whether this matters.

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

I don't think so. I think that the variations you get from, like, thoughts, even stress, probably are not correlating with the underlying, like, lactate levels that are super relevant to here. So you want to constantly give yourself cues for relaxation. I think form matters if you're seeing form changes. We also got one from someone that said when they burp, their heart rate goes down.

[A]

Yeah. I could say it's similar to my drinking thing.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, interesting. I told them it was bullshit, but maybe.

[A]

No, no, no. I should be curious. My bet is that it goes down and then within 30 seconds, they actually see it pop back up and possibly even exceed where they were before.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

Yeah. But I don't think it matters. You know, this is the thing is, like, these small, granular things. Where I do think it matters, though, is like, you know, sometimes we've worked with athletes that have gone through intense grief or breakups or, like, really, like, traumatic things, and their heart rate is, like, 10, 15, sometimes 20 beats per normal, like, elevated. And that's where I'm like, okay. I think that actually matters.

[B]

Yeah. And in racing, you'll have a lot of that activation, and so you might see higher heart rates than you'd expect. So knowing your own body and how you respond is important. That's why you never want to be dependent on it. You just want to have it as, like, a background variable to be aware of and think relaxing thoughts. I like their flow state. When coach used to hit me. Ground balls.

[A]

Yeah. Do you feel that way with baseball?

[B]

With baseball, yeah. Probably. My dad, when I was little, would just hit me fly balls, you know, like, constantly. And I, like, loved it more than anything in the world. And, you know. Yeah. Probably bring back childhood memories. It'd be great.

[A]

Yeah. For me, I can think about, like, playing soccer or, like, bouncing a ball on, like, my field hockey stick, and it feels very.

[B]

I think you're too much of a killer for that to ever really.

[A]

No, I actually. I'm just like, I want a ball. It really elevates my art.

[B]

Okay, next up. Oh, this is a point from a listener that will also be Oahu kicker run promo. I was watching a cycling highlight video, and when they panned to someone cooling down on a Wahoo bike trainer, all I can think of was you and Megan on a Wahoo Kicker run off to the side of a trail race start line doing uphill treadmill. That would be kind of hilarious fun in a good ad for Wahoo.

[A]

That would be hilarious. Yeah, that be. That'd be great, actually. And honestly, like, 15% uphill treadmill. That's what I do before my treadmill workouts. And, like, I do think it, like, primes the body in a special way.

[B]

I talked about that on the bonus episode this week. That doing uphill treadmill before you do a flat treadmill workout was the hack for me to learn to love the treadmill. So if you're out there, give it a try. Like, if you say you hate the trick treadmill, try it on 10% or 15% for 15 minutes and then put it on flat. And flat will feel downhill, and you'll also feel comfortable. But this is a good promo for the Wahoo kicker run. The best treadmill on the market. Absolutely bonkers. We can recommend it, like, with our full hearts, because now we've had so many podcast listeners get this treadmill, and they're all saying that it just goes wild. Like, it is the best thing they've ever purchased.

[A]

It is so smooth and flowy. Yeah.

[B]

So use code SWAPSWA2 at checkout. There's a link in the show notes. You get, like, a supercharged $400 fan if you use that code, and you'll really be happy about the purchase. Ours have all lasted forever. They're incredible.

[A]

Well, your family is up in the mountains, and so we've been going up high to Netherland a lot more, which is like 3,000ft above Boulder. And we put a treadmill up there. And this weekend, I very stubbornly set it to my Boulder settings, and I was like, I am dying. This is so hard.

[B]

Hard.

[A]

But I realized I, like, had to switch it down from 15% to 14%. What? It felt so smooth and easy running on 14% compared to 15%, which is the difference of, like, 1%. And I do think they might be onto something with the warmup, you know, of, like, you know, being at 15% makes other grades feel more reasonable.

[B]

So we'll just take that and carry on. Bring it to the start line of all of our races.

[A]

Can you imagine the TSA conversations?

[B]

Usually the TSA just sees us with our kids, and they take so much pity on us. I get flagged sometimes for all my gels that I'm taking through, and they're just like, don't worry about it.

[A]

You got enough going on. You already have stickiness all over yourself.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, next question on Gnomeo use. Hey, guys, I used some credit at the feed to order some gnomeo. 3 boxes, 12 servings. I'm already in the post workout ketone train, so before I get on the second expensive ergonomic age train, I wanted to ask your opinion on how to best use it. I wanna make sure I'm getting the most bang for my buck before which session should I take it? How long before each session? Thanks and hazoinks to y'.

[A]

All. Hazoinks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like that's what I say when I taste broccoli piss.

[B]

Yeah. Did you notice any difference when you.

[A]

Took it this weekend? Well, we were up at 8,500ft, which is, like, hard for biking at baseline, and I had a cold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, you put out great power. I did, but, I mean, I felt like. I actually felt like my heart rate was a little bit, like, depressed until I got above of, like, zone 3 ish. And then from there, actually, I felt like my heart rate wanted to rise more in a way that made the effort feel easier.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah, it's a weird. It's a weird description.

[B]

I've heard that from listeners that they're able to sustain higher heart rates for a longer period of time on it. Um, it's weird. I. We don't know much about exactly what the mechanism is. The research on it is wild in that regard. Um, but where I think it's most compelling is as recovery aid, where you're thinking of it in terms of recovery. So. So in heavy training is when I would mainly focus on using it before sessions, where you're accumulating a lot of stress. So one would be very high intensity sessions because it reduces lactate levels by 0.4 millimoles in the study. So that could be helpful. Um, but two is just. All right. And I'm taking it two or three hours before this, like, no steady run, where I'm just tired and beat up a little bit. Because of the recovery that you're seeing in some of the studies, I think that that's compelling more than even the performance benefits. I don't know if the performance benefits. Benefits are, like, dispositive at this point.

[A]

Okay. So because of the sodium load of bicarb, we say to take it no more than twice a week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you have some kind of range? Like, could you theoretically take Gnomeo five or six days a week?

[B]

Yeah. It's m. Mixed evidence right now. You're not supposed to take it, like constantly, all the time. But some of the studies have people take it before bed even. And multiple times.

[A]

Oh, man, that's exactly what I want before bed. Broccoli, piss. Nothing gets me in the mood. We have to have like, boot off, off Gnomeo in Voltaire on shirt. That sounds sexy.

[B]

Yeah. So give it a try. Let us know we're still learning, basically. And I think when I wrote about this on Patreon, a number of people commented and some said, oh, I love this. And interestingly, this could be totally statistical noise. Most of the people that said they were obsessed with no Meo. It's like 75% were women.

[A]

Maybe it's the broccoli.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Women are all about vegetables.

[B]

Okay, that's it.

[A]

That's it. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I know.

[A]

Don't.

[B]

I don't know. Um, just a curious point. So we'll pay attention more there. Next up on Intensity. I hope you're having a great weekend. Just a quick question. Not sure if you covered it before, but I was listening to Training for the Uphill Athlete Today. Great book. And heard something along the lines of quote, if your aerobic threshold heart rate and lactate threshold heart rate is more than 10%, you shouldn't add any high intensity. So, like, more than 10% apart between LT1, LT2. Uh, is there. So that. And if that's the case, you just do zone one, zone two in this model. Is there something to this? Sorry, if you've talked about this before, I think mine would be like 12 to 13% difference, but I do high intensity as well as low.

[A]

I feel like we get this question all the time. And they're probably referring more specifically here to aerobic deficiency syndrome. And I feel like we get this question split into so many different ways. Like, if I'm seeing my heart rate drift to this level throughout a run, you know, if I'm like, you know, if my Z2 is here, like, we. I feel like we just get like every different formulation of these questions.

[B]

Yeah. And basically that leads to our answer, which is. Is don't think about it this way, because that's not quite how your physiology works. Yes. If you are super far apart, like, Basically, if your zone 2 is very low, like those athletes I talked about, that might show metabolic opportunity to improve just over time from easy training. But the easy training is not exclusive from improving your power. It probably just points out that you need to be more diligent about your easy training. Like your easy needs to be a little easier at times. But if you're not also raising your power, you're gonna become very aerobically efficient and very slow. Slow. And that is kind of a nightmare for athletes because you're not actually feeling better when you run. If you just go down a spiral of getting better. Like numbers in this metric, but worse output and worse feel. And it's kind of the worst of all worlds.

[A]

Also 10%, just kind of an arbitrary number. Like, I'd feel a lot better if they're like, it's 11 and a half percent.

[B]

Well, we're not asking significant figures. Maybe they're summarizing 10.004. Um, so, yeah, a great way to think about it overall. But again, also, the definitions of these numbers themselves are uncertain. Like, even if you're doing lactate testing, let alone if you're doing heart rate drift testing, lactate testing. When you take it into a lab, LC2 is pinned at 4 millimoles. And you look at studies and it is not four millimoles across the board.

[A]

It's all over the place.

[B]

Yeah, it varies a ton. And so there's so much more art involved. Just keep the. Make sure you keep the art in your training. Training. And I think the art nowadays points to you always want to be improving a little bit at the top end, even if you're mostly focused on aerobic development.

[A]

And the art evolves day by day. We actually talked about this the other week in the context of heart rate drift is like, Heart rate drift is so dependent upon hydration, temperature. It's dependent upon, like, what kind of stress and fatigue you're carrying in sickness, illness, sleep, so many different things. And so I feel like that evolves constantly day to day.

[B]

Absolutely. Especially, you know, for an advanced enough athlete, you're gonna see fluctuations around these numbers. Just in the context of taking a few days off. Like, when I come back from running, it's gonna be a nightmare for a bit. And it's fine, you know, it's just part of the process. Okay, do we have time for more? Where are we at here?

[A]

Do you wanna do one more?

[B]

Okay, one more. Let's go.

[A]

You choose.

[B]

Let's go. I'm not running for kids. Um, we answered that separately. Logic or heart? Okay, let's, you know, let's rapid fire a few.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Just. Let's.

[A]

I like this.

[B]

Quick, quick, quick. All right, here we go. Hello. Happy New year. I raised two 50k ultras in 2025 for my first experiences in ultra running. And I want to Sign up for the 20, 26 javelina a hundred. My partner is worried since I haven't raced anything longer than a 50k before, but I do feel a need to sign up for javelina. Do I listen to logic or my heart? I can probably self organize a 50 mile or something else during the javelina training to experience longer distances before the race, but I know registration fills quickly. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, follow the heart. Heart, heart for sure. We have a long time until javelina and having a 50 mile like training experience heading in. Sounds great. Go for it, do it.

[B]

Logic isn't motivating either.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The whole point is doing something that just scares you and motivates the process. So whatever your heart is whispering, do that thing. And if you get there and you're like, hey, you know, actually I don't want to do this. Fine, great. It's structured a dream and life, I think is partially about dreaming and dreaming illogically. And if you're not dreaming illogically, there's a problem.

[A]

Also, logic has told me that I've seen athletes do things that like they themselves have not, not thought capable of and like to see what I've seen in terms of athletes going from, you know, going from 50k to a hundred mile distance, it's like, it's so cool to see that process.

[B]

Yeah. I mean everything that's happened to me was illogical in, in retrospect. And now let's talk about it in a like in the moment way. My foot healing, my dreams for it are illogical. To put that in quotes. Like.

[A]

Well, they, they fluctuate between being illogical and being like, I'm gonna retire.

[B]

Between that and like, if I was a horse, we would kill me right now.

[A]

Yeah. You're like, either I'm gonna race big alt to 50k or I'm just never gonna race again. I'm gonna be a dad.

[B]

I'm gonna cut holes in our wall. No. So, you know, I was told last week that Leadville is probably on the table and that's a long way away. Right. And it's like, wow, that is a much longer time horizon. I'm like, nah man, I'm staying dreaming. I'm dreaming with how this is gonna heal and how I'm gonna get better. And I think that those dreams will also make it so that I heal faster, faster and beat those expectations in the same way that you dreaming is going to lead you to places you never would have gone otherwise. And it doesn't even matter if you end up falling right into the logic camp at the end because it's going to put you in a different place than you ever would have been otherwise.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

That was not rapid fire, but it was worth it.

[B]

Yeah. Sometimes you just say, when I say something that's like totally off in space, instead of like doing dismissive wanking signs, you just say, that was beautiful.

[A]

I'd do a happy wank. You do a happy wank for all your for.

[B]

Okay, we can move on. We can go to a listener corner after that. Perfect way to end it. We have anything to talk about before we get there?

[A]

No, just John Gianji. I am so Janji right now has a sale going on. First of all, they're doing a relaunch of a lot of their bestsellers called the Midnight Relaunch of like Black and White Colorways. There's a lot of good stuff back on the website.

[B]

Yeah. And really important because it sells out super fast.

[A]

Yeah. The women's long bra is back in black, which is great. They got a lot of tights back. The multi short.

[B]

The multi short. The one one that, you know, I wore last year so much and I still love them. So they have the 7 inch multi short, which is great. If you're just looking for like a low key short that you can like wear around the house. I always order a medium, whereas sometimes I'm smalls and other shorts. So that gives you a size, a sense of like how I like the fit of it. Because like when I'm wearing the shorts, usually I'm like, yeah, now I want to be like, chill.

[A]

You like loose shorts and loose pants. That's always been your trend.

[B]

Yeah. Especially when they have like some sort of internal liner.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. I also just ordered the women's trucker cargo pan. It was 40% off. And then I got an extra $12 off of that for being a part of the John G Collective. And I was like, I get $12 off and 40% off. And so, yeah, I'm excited for this incredible deal.

[B]

So John G.com, j A N J I.com sign up for the John G Collective. 15% off for life. So that's better than using a swap code. And they're an incredible company doing wonderful things for this sport. We've heard about some of their initiatives this year. Like true grassroots organization that just wants people to feel supported.

[A]

We love them. You filmed the Heat Suit YouTube video in Janji? Yes, yes.

[B]

In my John gear.

[A]

You did unspeakable things to that John G gear. Oh, my God.

[B]

Do you think that video is going to be any good? I mean, Cody's great, but how can you make that video interesting?

[A]

Oh, we had so much fun.

[B]

I know.

[A]

A lot of it was like the vibes of this podcast. Okay, your YouTube audience is about to get a big shock. It was just like us interacting. At one point, we piled up all the boxes of mozzarella sticks from our freezer and just piled them up and then. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there was.

[A]

There's a moment. You have to. You have to watch the video for that moment. We'll see. I wonder if Cody includes that.

[B]

Yeah, I doubt it. Cody has.

[A]

Cody's like, I'm making art and you guys are just fucking around.

[B]

Yes. Taste. Okay, onto listener corner. A quick one here just to thank you note for all the training and race advice you both give using the half marathon plan on Patreon. I had the best running race I've ever had last night on my night trail. Half PR by 10 minutes. From the other four times I've ran this race and got second place overall. And from your previous device, I had zero stomach issues. Issues. Thanks again and huzzah.

[A]

Oh, that's so fun. Running fast and stomach feeling good. It's like, oh, my goodness, the best feeling.

[B]

Yeah. And just it's like so fun to think about people improving over time. Like, and just dreaming illogically.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I've never said that before, but I know that that was dismissive wank worthy in my mind. But as I'm going back, I'm like, dreamologically. That sounds like a good slogan.

[A]

I said put it on a T shirt.

[B]

Put it on a T shirt. Yeah.

[A]

Maybe fill it into our. Our chart here. We need a chart of like, we got Boudoff. Yep. Then we have Gnomeo in.

[B]

Gnomeo in.

[A]

Okay. Voltaren on.

[B]

Voltaren on.

[A]

And then dreamologically. Dreamologically doesn't follow my beautiful scheme of word choice, but you know what? It's illogical.

[B]

Oh, I'm excited about this. We should do merch. What do you think?

[A]

Oh, my God. Well, who's gonna.

[B]

What other sayings do we have on this podcast? I told myself last week that I was going to remember a callback so that I could land a plane at the end of the podcast with a joke that made you. You laugh.

[A]

Wank Happy. Was that one the new name of our book? We got the Happy Runner, the Happy Wanker. Just with a picture of you. You're like the author. Picture is just you with fourth Uroy. Like this guy's accepted himself. This is true bliss, accepting yourself as you are. Every writer has the same finish line. These are the hardest. See, if it's like hyperventilating, we need some. No meal on that. Okay, you do it.

[B]

You do it.

[A]

What? We love you all.