296. How To Use Electrolytes, Zone 2 Problems, Strange VO2 Max Measures, The Weird World of Probiotics, and AI Training Thoughts!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Some Work, All Play — Episode 296

Title: How To Use Electrolytes, Zone 2 Problems, Strange VO2 Max Measures, The Weird World of Probiotics, and AI Training Thoughts!
Date: February 3, 2026
Hosts: David Roche and Megan Roche, M.D.

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Episode Overview

Episode 296 of "Some Work, All Play" delivers a science-packed, high-energy exploration of topics pertinent to endurance athletes and running nerds: the real role of electrolytes, a new probiotic study, wild VO2 max claims, the realities of AI-driven training plans, gambling in running, vulnerabilities on YouTube, parenthood, and more. David and Megan blend hard evidence and personal experience with trademark enthusiasm, humor, and a refreshing dose of vulnerability.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. The Carousel of Happiness: Joy, Vulnerability, and Life’s Choices

• [00:01–03:24] David and Megan kick off with a whimsical yet deep reflection on joy, vulnerability, and the importance of choosing your own "ride" in life (inspired by a trip to the Carousel of Happiness in Nederland, CO).
• Metaphor for life: "It's the act of picking what you wanna ride. The point of everything." —David [02:00]
• Vulnerability frequently cycles through the show, setting a heartfelt, authentic tone.

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2. Megan’s YouTube Debut — Gender Dynamics and Body Vulnerability

• [03:24–09:24] Megan shares her anxieties and victories stepping into YouTube, noting the unique scrutiny women face ("...as soon as you're a woman on YouTube, they're like, here's her body. We're going to talk about it and dissect it.").
• She narrates her huge workout (12x5 min intervals), learning to embrace her body and jokes on camera, seeing it as "a big growth opportunity."
  • "[On YouTube] I don't think I changed a single part of my experience...including the mozzarella sticks." —Megan [08:55]
• David: "The artifice of like societal pressure and everything falls away." [09:24]

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3. Listener Comments & Relationship Realness

• [09:30–11:40] The hosts address skeptical YouTube comments, affirming their genuine relationship through hilarious, intimate stories.
  • "I mean it in no disrespect that you are a phony liar." —David [09:53]
  • "How we are in that situation at 2am is the same as how we are on YouTube." —Megan [10:22]

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4. Injuries and Comebacks

• [11:40–13:44] David updates on his rapid injury improvement, emphasizing the mental strength needed post-injury and announcing Megan’s new "return to run" plan for Patreon.
  • "The body is kind of miraculous if you just show up and give it time." —David [11:40]
  • "Every return to run process is so different." —Megan [13:11]

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5. Featured Study: The Vnella Probiotic and the Gut-Brain Connection

• [14:36–25:27]
  • Discussing a preprint study: “Vnella Atypical Supplementation Reduces Fatigue Interference and Increases Voluntary Physical Activity — Human and Mouse Study.”
  • Key Findings: Supplementation reduced day-to-day fatigue and increased voluntary physical activity in humans and mice. Mice on Vnella ran 2.86 km/day farther. [20:15]
  • David notes positive anecdotal effects among his athletes, linking to broader probiotic research.
  • Cautions: Individual responses vary wildly; more research needed before personalized recommendations can be made.
  • "Microbiome is becoming my whole personality." —David [17:14]
  • "For a long time... researchers have been kind of convinced that there's this gut-brain connection. And I'm just curious for more research..." —Megan [22:27]
  • AI in microbiome research: "This seems like such a perfect place to use AI..." —David [23:07]

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6. VO2 Max Outlier: Christian Blumenfeldt

• [28:31–33:32]
  • Blumenfeldt claims a world-record VO2 max of 101 ml/kg/min (much-debated due to questionable test context).
  • Scientific skepticism: "There's so much skepticism... the physiologists that do this for a living were all basically calling bullshit." —David [30:09]
  • Megan points out posting such a number invites questions about physiological outliers and doping.
  • Unreliability and noise in field VO2 max testing—using it as self-evaluation is discouraged.

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7. Tech & Measurement: AirPod Heart Rate Sensors & More

• [33:33–35:46]
  • AirPod 3s surprisingly accurate for HR measurement compared to chest straps.
  • Brief tangent on how Megan “tapes” hers to her ears while biking.

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8. Gambling and Fantasy Sports in Running

• [35:57–41:23]
  • Recent runner bans for gambling on teammates; growing concerns with rise of fantasy leagues and online betting.
  • Ethical/legal gray area: “I think pro athletes and coaches should not participate [in fantasy sports].” —Megan [40:56]
  • David: "For the integrity of sport, you have to ban gambling." [39:03]

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9. Athlete Stories: Public Goals and Online Hate

• [41:26–44:41]
  • Focus on Truett Haynes’s bold public pursuit of an Olympic trials marathon qualifier and the backlash.
  • David on goal-setting: "If you announce a low probability goal... that's not a bad thing. Running is about doing something ludicrous and impossible." [43:00]

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10. Electrolytes 101: Needs, Testing, and Practical Advice

• [45:03–62:23] (Bulk of scientific discussion)
  • Wide Variation: Human sodium loss in sweat ranges from 200–2000 mg/L, median 900–1000 mg/L.
  • Variables: Genetics, acclimatization, diet, environment, event duration all influence needs. Sodium needs can drop while exercising in heat or over the course of an ultra.
  • Testing: Precision at rest sweat sodium test is a good starting point; lab is gold-standard but rare. Patches and field testing less precise (~20% error).
  • Real-World Application:
    • Start at median sodium intake (900–1000 mg/L) and adjust based on performance and symptoms.
    • Light sweaters (200–700), Moderate (700–1100), Heavy (1100–2200+ mg/L).
    • Over- or under-salting can both cause problems.
  • Best Delivery: Sports drink for most; salt pills and tabs as needed, consider GI comfort.
  • "The artifice of like societal pressure and everything falls away." —David [09:24]; (on vulnerability, but relevant to letting go of strict adherence and learning to calibrate needs)
  • “If you have weird fatigue... If it’s not carbs, it’s probably the electrolytes-hydration nexus." —David [61:09]
  • "Always calibrate during race-specific training, not just on race day or via gadgets."

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11. AI in Training and the "Zone 2" Debate

• [63:45–78:12]
  • Cautionary tales: Listeners sharing AI-generated training plans that are nonsensical, not individualized, and laden with excessive intensity.
  • “It’s so nauseating because it’s bad. Like, it’s objectively bad.” —David [64:49]
  • Personalization from real coaches remains essential.
  • Strava and other apps are trying AI-generated workouts; still overly simplistic.
  • Zone 2 training: If it ruins enjoyment and requires running painfully slow for months without improvement, it’s likely being misapplied or heart rate zones are wrong.
  • “Zone 2 conversations can sometimes miss that we train everything all the time.” —David [77:47]
  • Advice: Run with friends, don’t worship the watch, recalibrate by feel, check zone calculations.

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12. Rapid-Fire Questions & Tangents

• [78:13–85:55]
  • Track etiquette: Change directions for big workouts, run outer lanes if possible.
  • Elliptical vs. Bike: Bike is superior for long-term aerobic gains and engagement; elliptical improvement hard to measure.
  • Bike cadence for runners: High cadence is likely best for runners cross-training.

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13. Parenthood & Life Choices

• [86:12–97:22] (Deep & candid discussion)
  • Megan and David share honest feelings on joy, meaning, the grind vs. the Instagram image of parenting, and how it parallels other life pursuits.
  • “If you make the decision not to have kids, it is the right one. And if you make the decision to have kids, it is the right one.” —Megan [91:19]
  • “Anything that’s solely good or joyful or whatever is like heroin. It comes with negatives that are beyond your comprehension because we're not made to live that way.” —David [96:16]
  • Emphasis on embracing the “necessary adventure,” silliness, and not following social media advice blindly.

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14. Listener Corner & Reflections

• [97:23–103:12]
  • Inspiring stories from listeners, including one who remained in science due to the podcast, and another whose carb-fueled running helped competitive chess.
  • Celebration of enthusiasm as a life skill: “Practice maximum enthusiasm.” [100:24]

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Notable & Memorable Quotes

• “Microbiome is becoming my whole personality.” —David [17:14]
• “For the integrity of sport, you have to ban gambling.” —David [39:03]
• “On YouTube, I don’t think I changed a single part of my experience...including the mozzarella sticks.” —Megan [08:55]
• “If you announce a low probability goal...that’s not a bad thing. Running is about doing something ludicrous and impossible.” —David [43:00]
• “If you make the decision not to have kids, it is the right one. And if you make the decision to have kids, it is the right one.” —Megan [91:19]
• “Zone 2 conversations can sometimes miss that we train everything all the time.” —David [77:47]
• “It is a joy in the sense of the joy you get from running a marathon. It’s a grind and it’s grit and it’s hard. But I love it so much in a fundamental way.” —Megan [87:32]
• “Practice maximum enthusiasm.” —[100:24]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |----------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Carousel of Happiness + Vulnerability | 00:01–03:24 | | Megan’s YouTube Debut + Gender Dynamics | 03:24–09:24 | | Relationship Realness & Listener Comments | 09:30–11:40 | | Injury Updates & Return-to-Run Plans | 11:40–13:44 | | V Nella Probiotic Study, Microbiome Chat | 14:36–25:27 | | Blumenfeldt VO2 Max Story | 28:31–33:32 | | AirPod HR, Electrolyte Testing | 33:33–35:46 | | Gambling in Running/Fantasy Sports Ethics | 35:57–41:23 | | Truett Haynes & Goal-Setting in Public | 41:26–44:41 | | Electrolytes 101 Deep Dive | 45:03–62:23 | | AI in Training and Zone 2 Debate | 63:45–78:12 | | Rapid-Fire (Track, Equipment, Training Tactics) | 78:13–85:55 | | Parenting/Meaningful Life Choices | 86:12–97:22 | | Listener Corner & Reflections | 97:23–103:12 |

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Final Thoughts

David and Megan intertwine data-driven advice with an openhearted, funny, and sometimes raw lens on sport and life. Whether wrestling with sodium intake, scrutinizing a VO2 Max screenshot, dissecting AI-generated training, or musing on parenthood, their unwavering enthusiasm, humility, and dedication to lifting others up make for both an educational and deeply human listen.

Practice maximum enthusiasm — in running, work, science, family, and life!

Transcript

[David]

Welcome to the Stim Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[Megan]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday, and I'm ready to get my spin on on this Tuesday.

[David]

Get your spin on.

[Megan]

We talking about biking, talking about the carousel.

[David]

Oh, my goodness.

[Megan]

Talking about some centrifugal forces that might be too much for me.

[David]

I'm so happy you're starting with this because this weekend we went to the Carousel of Happiness in Nederland, Colorado. And this is a visit to David's Hope Core corner. Because. Because I went in there and I was just filled with so much joy from, like a cellular level on out. And it's so important that we bring this to the people.

[Megan]

This is a hand painted carousel. And we walk in and they told us all about it, including that it was a 501C3. And their primary goal behind being a 501C3 is to spread joy. We're all about it.

[David]

I love it so much. So the backstory here is actually so beautiful. So Scott Harrison was in Vietnam, and he had a music box that he played into his ear just to deal with the horrors of war. And when he came back to deal with the PTSD of it, he spent 26 years hand carving animals one by one. And these things are beautiful. He had never carved before. And then the town of Nederland in Colorado raised $700,000 to create the carousel. And you step in and it's just full of the most, like, beautiful vibes you've ever felt.

[Megan]

I feel like everyone in there is joyful. The person operating the carousel, at one point, I saw her, she just got on an animal and was. Had those noise canceling headphones, and it was just rock.

[David]

And she was dancing and blissed out beyond belief. Yes. It's Meadowland, Colorado. So there probably was some chemical assistance.

[Megan]

I was like, there must be chemical assistance here.

[David]

But oh, my God. And as I was in there, I was thinking, all right, Carousel of Happiness, a good mission to have, but maybe more true to our times, would be carousels of other types of emotions.

[Megan]

That's fair.

[David]

Did you think about this at all?

[Megan]

Well, I was thinking, I was like, what else could we put on a carousel? And I think, to me, the act is like selecting what you want to ride. And so I was thinking of all the different things that would be fun to parse out, like don't donut flavors.

[David]

Ah, yeah.

[Megan]

Or books or different things. So for me, it's like the act of picking which one you're gonna ride.

[David]

I'm kind of Hung up on. It's the act of picking what you wanna ride. The point of everything.

[Megan]

It's the point of life. Yeah.

[David]

I don't know. So Carousel of Happiness on one side, yes. That is one of the emotions we have. But to be true to myself, I feel like the car, the carousel of indigestion bordering on ibs. Like, that's my carousel.

[Megan]

That was kind of how I felt on the carousel, actually doing it after a long run. Yeah. It's like this is the maximum amount of centrifugal force going to be able to ride ever. I'm not great at that stuff. And I had 90 grams of carbs an hour, went right there to the carousel and I was like, oh, my lordy.

[David]

Yeah, everybody needs to visit. You could, like fly to Boulder just to visit Netherlands to ride this thing. It's that special. What did you ride?

[Megan]

We rode. Actually, we rode a swan the first time. We took the whole family. Ollie, our little guy at one year old were like, he needs to be in just like the seated swan. And then Leo and I went high up the next time on a sheep.

[David]

A sheep.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Okay, that's a little boring. The correct answer. The correct answer. Megan, you should have said, what is you, David?

[Megan]

I mean, maybe later in the day. Not in that moment. Actually, I chose the sheep, though. This is important. It was the highest one up and I was like, leo, we got to get. We got to do the highest one.

[David]

Well, I feel like the truly authentic thing for the SWAT podcast is the carousel of gross sex jokes. All right, let's get to the episode. We have a really fun one this week. So many topics. Actually, we're going to start with Megan's first YouTube filming my return to run. Fun surprise there.

[Megan]

That was fast, man.

[David]

Yeah. Then a new preprint study on the V Nella probiotic. Really interesting connection between the gut and brain.

[Megan]

Also, surprise, surprise. I'm letting a preprint study be featured on the podcast. I was like, I don't know about this. Then I started reading the study and I kind of liked it.

[David]

Very cool stuff. And I've sworn by it for a while. Then news, including Christian Blumenfeld with the highest VO2 max ever asterisk, gambling and running and Truett Haynes's OTQ push. Then an electrolyte 101 primer. That might be the big science discussion where we really delve into the nuance of electrolytes when they're needed and what they're not telling you in scientific studies.

[Megan]

Actually, I feel like We've touched so much on carbs on this podcast, but we haven't really done a lot on electrolytes. And I feel like in some ways they're just as important, but we rarely talk about them.

[David]

Just as important.

[Megan]

Maybe not just as.

[David]

I don't know about that tension.

[Megan]

Closer. It's closer.

[David]

Call me the carousel of skepticism right now. Then questions on sweat, AI and training. Spoiler alert. I kind of hate AI right now. We'll talk about that. Low intensity studies, Gnomeo Z2 and more.

[Megan]

There's a lot of good stuff on here, actually.

[David]

We probably have to rapid fire a lot of what we're talking about because the science is really cool. But mainly I want to talk about your YouTube debut. We filmed episode two of the YouTube series. Episode one came out last week. If you haven't seen it, go check it out. It's basically a big joke. But also features all of my supplement intake, which people were a little bit. I don't know, there were some weird comments.

[Megan]

You did spend like three minutes of the video being like, here are all the supplements I'd take. And I was like, damn, that's courageous, though.

[David]

That was courageous.

[Megan]

Courageous. But I also, I respect it because it's no secrets and, like, what other pro athlete is going to be like, here's everything I take and why. And so I respect it. But I also think too, the context. Sometimes I think people miss the context that you are a professional athlete. Like, this is your profession. And very few people talk about it in that way.

[David]

Well, long before it was my profession, I was just as focused even when I had no money. Money of like, oh, does this vitamin help a little bit. Um, and so it's all focused on health and all of that, but very Fun video. Episode 2 we filmed, which featured one of Megan's biggest workouts. 12 by 5 minutes. How did it feel?

[Megan]

It was so fun, actually. I've been hesitant to be on the YouTube game now for a while. Yeah, I think there's just very few women on YouTube. Like, I feel like a lot of the discussions around men, it's like, here's the fitness, here's the workout. And as soon as you're a woman on YouTube, they're like, here's her body. We're going to talk about it and break it down and dissect it. And like, I don't know, the podcast feels like different vibes than YouTube, but for some reason, like, with your injured foot, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna step up and do it. And I actually really loved recording.

[David]

Oh, very serious reflection to make after I make this one, which is. I'd be a little concerned if people were talking about dissecting your body. Just saying. That's where we do start to get worried about being on YouTube. But the serious reflection is, does that worry you now? Like, because this is going to be putting yourself out there in a way that goes far beyond, you know, even the videos of you pacing or anything like that. Like, you're really exposing yourself to the world, metaphorically, figuratively, and all of your emotions and things like that. How does it make you feel?

[Megan]

I actually feel fine about it. I don't know why I hit that, like, bucket point of like, okay, let's do it. And I think some of it also comes from the fact too that, like, I'm hopping onto, like, your channel kind of. It's becoming our channel, which is beautiful.

[David]

Yeah. I'm going to change the mountain roach photo to a photo of us because we're both mountain roach people.

[Megan]

Oh, no way. The candle was perfect all along. But I think, like, with that comes like, you know, when you're on YouTube, you're running four minute miles at this, like, beautiful, just like effortless pace on the treadmill. And I'm running like 7 minute miles at 8%, which is still like, you know, for women. I'm like, I'm proud of that. That's awesome. I'm proud of doing anything at 8%. But I think sometimes it's like, it's easy to feel like, oh, man, you know, they came for David's calves and they're getting this like, girl struggling away on the treadmill. But, like, I feel fine about that now for some reason.

[David]

That's so cool. I love that evolution. Just because it is really vulnerable in a way. The podcast isn't, because thank you all for being here. But we know if you're sticking through a podcast, it's kind of because you enjoy it.

[Megan]

You also can't see us right now. Yeah, we're half naked much in the same. I mean, I was half naked on the YouTube channel. I did the workout in a sports bra. But it's just like, there's something to me about the visual difference and like, coming into our house and doing it and like, filming a workout that just feels different.

[David]

I can't wait for people to see it.

[Megan]

Yeah, but it was fun, actually. I enjoyed it. And to like, give you props, man, I doing the workout. So 12 by 5. Quite a challenging workout. Like, that's one of the Hardest workouts we give.

[David]

And that's gonna be the YouTube title in coaching, the hardest workout we ever give. Get those clicks, man.

[Megan]

That actually is pretty good clicks, I'm not gonna lie. But, like, thinking about that, you know, as I was doing that workout, I was narrating it and making jokes, and I think it's gonna be such good race training for me because it's like, to do that, to go through one of the hardest workouts you're ever going to do and to narrate it and to make jokes and to be okay with your body being on YouTube, it's like, I felt like I stepped into a big growth opportunity for me, and I think it's gonna give me confidence heading into racing.

[David]

That's so beautiful. I love that. And one of the big memes from the first video that I think might be this year's ankle weights and super shoes are your mozzarella sticks.

[Megan]

Yeah, we just stacked them up in the first video, and that's like. I mean, I do have mozzarella sticks almost every single day, and we brought them back on this video.

[David]

Yeah, I can't wait for people to see it. And we made the mistake of looking at the nutrition facts of the mozzarella sticks this weekend, actually.

[Megan]

You did. I never really looked. And you're like, look, it's blank sticks and X calories and I. But actually, there's. It's the cool thing. Like, I. Like, there's part of my brain that's just, like, great. That's, like, efficient, for sure. Replenishment. Like, you know, after I did this big workout, it's like, I need that.

[David]

And it's a great. A great reminder for people that fuel needs to be in there. When you're doing workouts like that and just working out hard in general. And sometimes it doesn't matter that much.

[Megan]

On the source, and it's authentically. And I think this is the fun part about YouTube, is I don't think I changed a single part of my day or workout experience other than, like, obviously I'm not, like, narrating it and making jokes, but I don't think I changed a single part of my experience. Experience for the YouTube camera, including the mozzarella sticks. And that's like, it's just kind of cool to show up authentically and be like, here I am. But I think something about a workout like that, too, makes it easier.

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Like, you do 12 by 5, and you're like, I don't care anymore. You start to lose all the, like, you know the ways that you hold vulnerability up on a pedestal when you work that hard.

[David]

Yeah. The artifice of like societal pressure and everything falls away.

[Megan]

Oh, you just sweat that shit right out.

[David]

But we'll see when it comes out because then you start to do things like have comments, which I hope you stay far away from because here's a comment from the first video that we wanted to bring you. I know your guys love is real, but it sounds like it was in a romance movie where the lovers have to be overly animated with their tone and feelings of love. In other words, it sounds fake for the videos. I know it's not, but sometimes those are the vibes I get. And I mean it in no disrespect.

[Megan]

I love that.

[David]

I mean it in no disrespect that you are a phony liar.

[Megan]

I feel like anytime anyone starts a statement with I mean it in no disrespect, you should run as fast as you can. I feel like they should have been there. This actually brings me back to, you know, one of these podcast episodes at the end where we talked about my hemorrhoid situation. And I feel like this YouTube listener should have been there when you were reducing my hemorrhoid like a bike tire and trying to change it like a tire flat. Because that is love.

[David]

To be fair, the whole time I was screaming, no, no, no, I don't.

[Megan]

Want to do this, and making so many jokes. But like, how we are in that situation at 2am at night is the same as how we are on YouTube in many ways.

[David]

Yeah. Yesterday we couldn't figure out how to get the garage door down. And we googled it and eventually figured out it was probably the motion sensors. And so we cleaned off the little lenses of them and we were really worried that if you can't get this down, we can't go anywhere.

[Megan]

Well, we had the kids already in the car, which is like a feat by itself. When we were sitting there waiting and just being like, come on, garage door, do it, do it, do it.

[David]

And then it went down and it kept going and it didn't turn around. And all of a sudden we both started with me, just started doing the nwo, I think, like the wrestlers just suck it, suck it, suck it over and over.

[Megan]

Except I don't think you've ever done this motion in your life because you hit yourself where it hurt. And that was actually funny.

[David]

That is the sad, unreal. I forgot about that. I hit myself in a sensitive area and then spent the next five minutes on the ground. So I deserve that. Um, okay. Next thing before we get to the study is my return to run. Um, so had massive rapid improvement in my foot and was able to run two times this weekend on the treadmill. And, you know, not out of it yet, but, you know, a good reminder with injuries that you can go from really low, like in a boot just a few days before, to being able to load it a little bit. And the body is kind of miraculous if you just show up and give it time.

[Megan]

Okay. I opened the door to where you were treadmilling and just. You didn't even see me. And from behind, like, you know, six feet from behind, I just see you start fist pumping the air just genuinely. And it's like. It is kind of crazy how running endorphins hit so differently than bike endorphins.

[David]

Yeah. There's something so special about it. And I was listening to Shoulder song by Victor Jones on repeat because it's my comfort song. Because you know when you're coming back from this sort of thing, the whole time you're worried you're scared. Right? Like, there's fear out there. And I don't want fear to make decisions for me ever. Like, I'm fine if I re aggravate it at a certain point. I just don't want to spend six weeks being scared. I'd almost rather get injured again than be scared. And so listening to that song over and over helped. But when he screams, I like mean women. Like soft men. You can't help but fist bump when you're running.

[Megan]

I should. We should actually release this video at some point. I got it on video from behind.

[David]

It's Patreon only. It's embarrassing, actually.

[Megan]

Why is it embarrassing?

[David]

I'm in a heat suit and I have no rhythm and I'm running 10 minute pace and I just look like I haven't run in five weeks. It's not flattering.

[Megan]

It's authentic.

[David]

It's authentic.

[Megan]

It's very authentic. We should actually put the song over it too. And then it would be even more authentic.

[David]

Girls just want to have fun. That's the song you need to put over.

[Megan]

Actually, anytime I listen to that song, I probably do fist pump.

[David]

Yeah. It is so good. So, um, on that note, Megan wrote a return to run plan that we're probably going to release this afternoon on Patreon. So a resource that people will have whenever they have time off. You crushed it there. Can't wait to share it with the world.

[Megan]

It was fun to collaborate on it it does look different than your return to run. And I think this is the area where like, you know, it's challenging to see something like your return to run. It's like every return to run process is so different.

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And you're a pro athlete. Like, you know, you're really going for it and probing the margins. Yeah. And I kind of listen to you kind of.

[David]

But that's the magic of it is, you know, different things work for everyone. And this particular injury is at the very low end of that type of return to run. Like, you know, if I was out for eight weeks, it'd look a lot more like what you plan. And who knows, maybe I'll be in a boot tomorrow.

[Megan]

Hopefully not.

[David]

Hopefully not. Okay, let's get on to the promo for the feed. We're going to start with the feed.com swap swap. So many amazing products there. All the gels you need. Science and sport Beta fuel back in stock. It's our favorite enervit gels. We got a huge shipment of those. Just absolutely love them a ton. For my tendon healing, I've been taking momentous collagen peptides. That's been really helpful.

[Megan]

Cody actually got that on camera. You just had this whole pile of collagen on top of the tea that you were making on as you were doing the YouTube recording. And I hope that goes on the video.

[David]

Really special stuff. So if you're a first time orderer, you get 40% off and if you're a returning customer, 10% off for every $100 spent. Kind of wild deals. The feed.com swap SWP. Just put in your email there. Now we're going to go on to the first study which is also a product at the feed. But I want it to be different from the ad so that we can kind of on it if there's any like wiggle room there to on it.

[Megan]

I don't know. This is a preprint study and I liked it. Yeah, that says a lot. Usually I panic whenever we have a preprint study. In that line I'm like we cannot do it. We must wait for peer review.

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And I like this one.

[David]

Yeah. And realistically now I'm not saying peer review is broken, but how many studies are fundamentally changing in peer review, most of the things changes I see from it's not pre print to publication, it's after publication when the broader world, including critics, see it and then disagree with it. And that might show that in this particular field it's a little broken. The review process just because, you know, who wants to do that shit nowadays? And it's just a very difficult. Even though it's the cornerstone of science, it is difficult.

[Megan]

Well, I actually love to know if like the post print corrections are increasing in science. They probably are with the advent of AI and like different ways of being able to process data and even just the level of curiosity of putting it out there on Twitter and more people being exposed to it. So I would love to look at that stat over time.

[David]

And so this is on the V Nella probiotic and it is called vanilla atypical supplementation. Reduces fatigue interference and increases voluntary physical activity. A randomized controlled trial with mechanistic validation in mice.

[Megan]

And part of the reason why I love this study is it's done in both humans and in mice. And I think it's really, it's rare to have a paper that combines both of those. In fact, as I was looking at this data, I was like, they have enough of like information and data here for two different papers. And I love that they combined it into one because I think the mechanistic validation in mice is actually quite helpful.

[David]

Yeah, I often see that in studies that are in nature, for example, is they'll do a human study and then follow it up with, you know, some like mice type mechanistic study. Like they really combine it all into one which gives this a little bit more heft. So it took 151 participants and had them in 3D different groups. One was high dose V1, one was low dose vanilla and then one was placebo and it was randomized and placebo controlled.

[Megan]

And the way that they did this was they said they had an eight week protocol with two week of baseline, four weeks of supplementation and then a two week washout period. That way participants that were getting the probiotics of the vanilla and getting placebo weren't having interference between the two.

[David]

Yeah, which is kind of probably difficult to understand for sure when it comes to gut microbiota and how that influences long term trajectory. So these studies are going to be so hard in general since gut microbiome is not like, oh, you introduce this particular strain and then all of a sudden it colonizes and all of a sudden your gut microbiome is different. It's like literally if you measure someone before and after a hard run, their microbiome will be fundamentally different. It's one of the strangest areas of human physiology. And it's why I am obsessed. Like microbiome is becoming my whole personality.

[Megan]

It changes so rapidly. And this is why, you know, they have toilets that can actually measure microbiome. And I'm like, how cool would that be? Because it's constantly evolving based off of like what you eat, how you train, all your different, I mean even like what environments you're interacting with.

[David]

And that's why microbiome is so cool, is that if you think of evolution on these really long timescales with, you know, generations, right, it's like a human generation, 20, 30 years, something like that, that just keeps going, going, going. And evolution acts over very, very long periods of time. For gut microbiome you are having adaptive pressure constantly. And so yes, there's some initial baseline and changes that happen due to exposures. But then all through life you're having so many changes and we do not know how they all fit together. What's so unique about this particular V nella formulation is they noticed after marathons this particular strain was elevated. Then they found the mechanistic cause of this, which is processing of lactate and then introduce it to athletes. What happens? So like this is a beneficial bacter as seen in athletes and what happens when you introduce it exogenously? And this is one of many studies that's starting to ask this question.

[Megan]

And we talked about those initial studies and then the fact that the scientists doing the initial studies actually came up with the V supplementation, which is how, you know, they believe in the science, is when you take the science and you're like, I'm going to make a company now. And yeah, yeah, whenever I hear that.

[David]

I'm like, capitalism, you know, you only know a study is good when there's a company made on the other side. Not necessarily, but that's how it can feel sometimes. And the finding here, uh, wasn't overwhelming, but it did find reduced day to day fatigue interference from the supplementation group. And the second one was increased voluntary physical activity. So in other words, athletes are by their own volition doing more training. And that shows how weird this shit is that, you know, there's a gut brain connection. There's also, you know, gut everything connections. If we can know what we're looking at, we just don't really know what we're looking at that often.

[Megan]

And not just in physical activity, also in activities of daily living. So that fatigue interference is actually this like whole category of like, you know, research and survey quantification that's been done before. Asking like, how tired are you in activities of daily living? And seeing the responses was pretty cool. And then I was like, you know, this study by itself would be interesting. We'd probably talk about it in the podcast. But it was the mice that sold me.

[David]

The mice sold you?

[Megan]

I didn't.

[David]

How'd the mice make out from this study? You never want to ask that question. Don't ask why did I ask that question?

[Megan]

There's actually a line in the paper. Let me find this. Oh, yeah, they measured striatal dopamine quantification at end point. At end point is such a sad way to say that.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, I know.

[Megan]

I struggle. I actually really. This is the thing. Like, you know, I've done animal research before, and I really struggle with animal research. It's hard.

[David]

Well, let's pour some out for the. For the end point that is coming for us all.

[Megan]

Every runner has the same end point striatal quantification, apparently. But you know what they got? They were running more.

[David]

They were running more.

[Megan]

Maybe they were happier.

[David]

Yeah. And they have very short generation windows, too. And so what did they find in the mice?

[Megan]

They found that in the mice that received the V. NALA supplementation compared to placebo during the five weeks of running, they actually had a baseline higher running distance of approximately 2.86 km per day longer, which is a lot.

[David]

The mice are running 3km a day longer.

[Megan]

Oh, yeah. They're hanging out on those wheels.

[David]

What does that translate to for a runner with our size? Legs.

[Megan]

I know, right?

[David]

Wow. Yeah. Very, very cool stuff. And, you know, we can think about, all right, the. The dopamine might show some mechanistic thing in mice. Whether mice and human. Like, whether it crosses over, who knows? You know, there was a study last week that came out that got a lot of press about mice research that showed cures for pancreatic cancer. And that was taken to, like, huge extremes in popular media. And, you know, every type of cancer has had hopeful cures in mice. It's just a different process.

[Megan]

Well, I love that almost every study title that has, like, has been researching in mice in mice is like, the last thing in the study title. It's like, all these interesting things, and then they're like, in mice.

[David]

Or it doesn't make it at all, which is interesting. So background on Van and why I'm especially prone to being ready for these studies is I started taking this before Leadville 2024, when we had terrible, terrible stomach issues. And then I was like, oh, well, I need to change something, because I'm not gonna be at the start line probably, like, I can try anything. Started taking vnella Double dose for that week and whether it can act in a week, who knows? But I think it probably can. And then, you know, had that breakthrough. And since I've taken it on and off, not always, and have noticed a difference and have introduced it to some of the athletes I coach, including some big old superstars who I don't want to mention their names since it's not my story to tell. Thus, whether it's partially a driver or whether it's just a confounding variable, who knows? But it does seem really interesting. And the science on microbiome generally and probiotic research is so much better than it seems. When you look online, I would assume that it's all bullshit based on how people talk about it in influencer circles or online scientific circles. But in general, when you deliver probiotics, someone, even a general probiotic supplement, they're on the other end. Their fatigue goes down. Not always their performance, but usually their fatigue.

[Megan]

And I'm fascinated with how that relates to the brain. And that's why I like that they included my series. Like, for a long time, you know, researchers have been kind of convinced that there's this gut brain connection. And I'm just curious for more research to be done on that because to me, it's like, that is so cool.

[David]

And might have much more important implications outside of athletics. It's like, this is one type of supplementation. There are, like so many, you know, bacteria involved here in different things, different levers that can be pulled, and we are just starting to understand. And while I'm becoming more and more of an AI skeptic overall as it applies to creative processes or certainly, like, I don't know, just how humans communicate, this seems like such a perfect place to use AI to understand a little bit better how these bacteria fit together in the same way. The alphafold helped with the AI system, determined how proteins fold from the information they have. Like the multifactorial systems with nonlinear interactions seems like a place where we might start to know a lot more in 10 years.

[Megan]

And I feel like it's the starting point to be like, what research should we even do? Because there's, like, so much still to be done. It's like, how do you even ask the questions that are most relevant? And I think that's where AI comes in. Okay, walk me through those. So there's Vnella and then there's Nella, which is more of a general probiotic. Which one do you use? Do you alternate it? How do you recommend that to athletes?

[David]

I Don't have any. It's so hard to know specific recommendations for this even. And I wouldn't even say use this particular one or Nella. You can get those at the feed if you want. But generally taking a probiotic seems to be effective for some people in the review studies. And I wrote a big summary about this on Patreon. The question is, what works? And it probably depends heavily on the individual. And there are likely some individuals that would respond very poorly to the same interventions that help others. Thus, who knows? What I usually say is, if you have some sort of issue, even if it's mental health, try a probiotic, throw it at it. Because eventually we might figure out a probiotic that helps reduce symptoms of depression. We don't have that yet, and we probably won't for 10 years, but I think in 20 years we'll have personalized recommendations that do make a big difference. What do you think?

[Megan]

I think so, yeah. I think that we're just getting to that point where we can measure the microbiome. Now, the tricky thing is it changes so much that you're measuring it at one time point and then finding the recommendations and then retesting and then going a step further and being like, how does this relate to performance? How does it relate to a number of outcomes, including mental health?

[David]

Yeah, well, 10 years ago I said, 10, 10 years from now, everything's going to change. So maybe we should push the timescale out a little bit and maybe it just amounts to not enough of the research is going toward here. In fact, someone on Patreon messaged, and it's a beautiful message, actually. Listener corner this week where they were going to leave Science after their PhD. It's beautiful, such a beautiful message. And our podcast in the way we talked about science made them want to stay in that world. And now they're have funding at a great university and they're thinking about their project, and it's generally involving brains, brain and metabolites as it relates to exercise performance. I'm like, do microbiome and relate it to the brain and maybe that guy will be the one that causes the breakthrough.

[Megan]

Yeah, for me, I don't know. Like, for me, neuroscience and brain research right now is sometimes like the most fascinating. Do you feel that way?

[David]

How do we not understand our brains?

[Megan]

I know, but it's also like, how does that relate to AI and like, uncovering the brain? And to me that's like those parallels. I'm like, let's figure it out.

[David]

That's what's Most exciting in the whole scientific realm, long outside of performance. In fact, there was an amazing interview on the Dwarkesh podcast that was talking about the brain as the final frontier. Because we do not truly understand how the brain works on the cellular level.

[Megan]

Oh, it's so complicated once you get.

[David]

Down very small levels. Because then, I mean, you're even talking about quantum theory at that point. It's so, so strange. But the Moonshot funding needs to be understanding the brain before we try to reverse engineer it with these systems that, you know, might be just be taking, like, essentially random number generator approximations of a totally different process. So the brain is awesome. And yeah, it's. You know, your background is actually in neuroscience before med school. And so you've felt this on, like, a really specific level.

[Megan]

Oh, but so many years ago. Like, it's changed so much now. Okay, if we could get Oz Perlman on here, who's a mentalist, we've stopped doing interviews.

[David]

Oz the mentalist.

[Megan]

The mentalist. And he could unlock your brain. Oh, live. Have to be like a live recording. Would you do it?

[David]

No. O's is staying far away from me.

[Megan]

Isn't that true? Authenticity, though. You're like YouTube. You can have. You can have my body and you can have my brain.

[David]

Okay. If those people out there have not seen O's the Mentalist, just put it into YouTube. Talk about hope Core Corner. There's something about his videos. Every time I watch them, I start giggling and going like, it brings me the ultimate childlike joy every single time. And maybe coolest of all, he's a runner. He just goes out and runs marathons all the time. He's run like a 2:30 or something, maybe even faster. And just the coolest seeming dude, in addition to having supernatural powers. I know science is science and I should stick to that lane, but you watch these videos and eventually you're just, all right, this guy's got another thing going.

[Megan]

I mean, it has to be a science at some point.

[David]

Yeah, at some point. You mean it could be a psychological science?

[Megan]

It's a psychological science for sure. Yeah.

[David]

He mind reads. Do not burst my bubble. My Hope Core corner is going to not be a. It's not going to be brought into your world.

[Megan]

Well, I kind of. I would love to do an episode with him and know, like, I want him to unearth your brain.

[David]

Okay. You're the carousel of being a turd in the punch bowl, trying to figure out his secrets.

[Megan]

Well, I don't know if that's a. I mean, is That a turd or are you just, like, searching for cool things at that point?

[David]

I don't know. I like to hold on to wonder at every chance. That's why today, as we're recording, is Groundhog Day. And I like to think that that groundhog is clairvoyant, but very specifically clairvoyant and not that good at it. Can he predict the stock market? No. Can he predict your future? No. Can he predict the weather? 50% of the time.

[Megan]

Do you know what he saw today?

[David]

Oh, I don't know.

[Megan]

Yeah, we should look it up after.

[David]

Kind of like that groundhog bit. Arguing.

[Megan]

Is it first drama title?

[David]

Probably. Okay, uh, let's go on to news here. We put this early because some fun things happened last week, and let's just shoot through it. Very first one is the ultimate of, like, I don't know, I'm going to use this term, a dick measuring contest that was posted online. So Christian Blumenfeldt, one of the best triathletes ever, gold medalist, posted, like, one of those Instagram, I think it's called a carousel.

[Megan]

It's called a carousel where you, like, swipe multiple times to see different photos.

[David]

Yeah, this was the carousel of. Of dick measuring, of extremely unlikely girth. It's like in the seventh picture or what, uh, they showed a, like a screen of a VO2 Max test. And on the screen it said his relative VO2 was 101.1 or something, which is bonkers. Would be the highest ever recorded by a substantial margin. Um, and in the process, I was like, oh, I take this without a grain of salt, like, I totally take this at face value. And then I read a little bit more about it, and the scientific world is not doing that. There's so much skepticism.

[Megan]

Well, they kind of messed up a little bit because it's like posting a screenshot but, like, forgetting that there's like something on your computer or like something behind you that's like, incriminating. And you're like, oh, shit, why did I do that?

[David]

Where there's like, one tab open and someone sees just a little icon and the icons for, like, I don't know.

[Megan]

And they're like, oops, that's not good. But you could see on the little corner of the machine it said RER. So respiratory exchange ratio of, I believe, 0.93, which does not. There's a lot of context behind why that does not make sense. At a VO2 max of 101, it kind of impact includes, like, submax. You would expect that to Be like, a submaximal respiratory exchange rate has to.

[David]

Do with, like, how CO2 is Excel.

[Megan]

We're not going to get into that complicated.

[David]

Yeah, it's complicated, but the really smart physiologists that do this for a living were all basically calling bullshit on it over and over and over again, dunking. And it's very interesting because why do you think they posted this? Do you think that they actually assume Christian Blumenthalt's VO2 is 101, which is an outlier amongst outliers? Like, it wouldn't compute at all even if that number wasn't there, because if someone's VO2 was that high, it would just kind of break our understandings of human physiology.

[Megan]

I think the complicated thing, too, is human physiology at that extreme outlier level. It's also complicated by doping, too. And by posting a VO2 max of 101, you're basically inviting yourself into that conversation.

[David]

He probably doesn't give a shit about that.

[Megan]

No, he's probably moved beyond that.

[David]

If you're that good and you're clean, you're just like, ah, fuck it, I'm gonna move on and not like it.

[Megan]

We ball.

[David]

Yeah. Not worry about this, right? Because people are always going to have doubts, like, why do you think they posted it at all?

[Megan]

Maybe it's a scare tactic.

[David]

That's what I'm thinking.

[Megan]

To his, like, competitors to be like, how are you supposed to race a guy that has a VO2 max of 100:1 at a respiratory exchange ratio of 0.93, which would indicate maybe his VO2 max.

[David]

Like, you know, it might mean just bad running economy.

[Megan]

Like, that's true, actually. Yeah.

[David]

Who knows? I'm not sure exactly. Like, or maybe he's on the bike. I don't even know bad economy. So maybe it is his VO2, in which case it would explain his gold medal. Or maybe there's some weird measurements coming up. Norway, because a lot of the physiologists that have theorized about this pointed out that so many of the best VO2s ever measured came from Norway. And everyone's always like, oh, it's because the Norwegians have some secret. Maybe their secret is miscalibrated metabolic carts.

[Megan]

Maybe it's the Norway government. They're like, we need to be superior. We need to validate the Norwegian models of training. Visit norway.org yeah, we're going to juice these thresholds.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah. It is curious because you look at the best VO2s ever recorded, and Norway does have. Have an Odd representation, including athletes who haven't been the very best at their sport like everybody else is, like Killian Jornette, Matt Carpenter. Whenever I see him on those lists, it makes me feel very good about myself.

[Megan]

He was like, 93, right?

[David]

92. Ish.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

But that's insane because he was the former, you know, Leadville course record holder, which kind of makes me a little bit more confident that the record might be harder to break than, I assume.

[Megan]

Oh, I think it's. I think it's pretty hard to break.

[David]

But amongst those are kind of not random Norwegians, but people that just didn't accomplish that much. And it might partially explain where some of those anomalous numbers are coming, because I think sometimes people hear about the O2s and elite athletes and like, oh, well, if it's not 80 plus or 85 plus, you don't have a shot. It's like, actually probably a lot of the context understanding has just been fully thrown off by the high numbers that, like, there's a lot more 75s or 70s at the elite end of male sport and far lower on the elite end of female sport than we think.

[Megan]

Well, I think also this applies not just to elite athletes, but there's so much noise within VO2 measurements. We actually talked about this once in a podcast, is that if you look at studies that are measuring endpoints of VO2 Max, it's actually really tricky to figure out what interventions work because there is so much noise in measurements that, like, you really need that VO2 measurement to go above and beyond to counter that noise. It's like, it's tricky to replicate VO2 studies.

[David]

Another thing, don't measure your VO2.

[Megan]

Yeah. Just assume it's 101.

[David]

Just assume it's 101.

[Megan]

Are you gonna make a meme of, like, yourself on the treadmill with, like, a little VO2 reading and just be like, 13 inches?

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

This is a dick measuring contest.

[David]

You're giving away what I wanted to do for my joke. Joke Instagram.

[Megan]

This week, we just hold up a mozzarella stick. That's like, 13 inches.

[David]

I think what would be even funnier, actually, is doing, like, a hard, like, showing myself going really hard and then scanning to a computer screen that just says, on, like, a Google Talk, VO2 102. Just like, so it's like, everything is normal, except this is a Google Doc saying a number. Okay, let's rapid fire the other news. Number two. I just wanted to throw this out to you. An athlete sent in their heart rate file for calculation on Patreon, as always, visit patreon.com swap if you want your heart rate zones calculated, that's at the $10 tier now. But if you're at the $5 tier, I'll still do it for you.

[Megan]

If you're having a good day, you're like, I sometimes do the 5$5 tiers if I'm feeling good about myself.

[David]

Even if you're there and you got a gift subscription, I'll do it for you. Just send in your stuff, give myself a lot of work. But patreon.com slot and they said that this file was from their AirPods. And then I looked at the file expecting to see, like, total bullshit, like one of these Norwegian VO2 measurements. And I saw a beautiful reading.

[Megan]

I also saw another one among, like, similar amongst an athlete I coached. And I'm like, there's something about these AirPods.

[David]

The AirPod threes might be really good heart rate. So just throwing this out there. Have really only seen anecdotal validation studies which people have done that show relatively high correlation like 0.98-to.099, which is. Is good with chest strap heart rate. Um, so if you have the AirPod threes, that might simplify things. That could be the next wave of training heart rate.

[Megan]

I'm kind of obsessed with my AirPods, so I'm excited about this. You actually. AirPods fall out of your ears all the time.

[David]

Yeah, my ears don't work with them. I don't understand.

[Megan]

Do you think they're too big, too small?

[David]

I think I just got gaping weird ears. I feel like they need an attachment. That's like for hobbits. You got that hobbit shit. I'm on it.

[Megan]

Well, actually, it reminds me, so when I bike, I use one single AirPod, so I can your cars and like, have the music low, but I tape it to my ears with like the nice Hampton Adams, like white athletic tape. And it totally ruins my fit check, but it's so worth it.

[David]

Okay.

[Megan]

You should just run around with like AirPods taped to your ears.

[David]

I like that idea. Yeah, that sounds good. It sounds like it defeats the purpose of AirPods, but I see where you're coming from. Number three on the stories was a really interesting gambling sanction for runners for betting on their teammates. So. So this is like, truly interesting because in basketball or baseball or whatever, we understand that you do not bet on the sport. You do not bet at all as.

[Megan]

A player of the game.

[David]

Yeah. So Pete Rose did this famously in baseball as a Manager of the Cincinnati Reds. And then he was banned for life. He died recently and wasn't inducted into the hall of Fame as a result. And that understanding of gambling has always been there. But with these online gambling apps taking over every podcast ad, every video ad, and we promise we will never take money from any of those companies, even if they offered less, like a hundred million, because I am concerned that they may be evil. Oops, probably shouldn't have said that. We're going to get taken down by. By our podcast provider. But, you know, with that, you're starting to see so many more scandals across these sports, including one in baseball this year where there was a prop bet, for example, that this pitcher, whether their first pitch of their at bat would be a ball or strike, and this pitcher just skims some money off by throwing intentional ball. And then you look at these pitches and you're like, ah, fuck. If it's happening like this, it's probably happening in much bigger ways. And the question is, is it coming to running?

[Megan]

And that's where prop bets, to me, really do it. Because it's like you can make so much money on these random things that don't actually even impact the game's outcome. Like, no, throwing a single ball versus strike at the start of a game does not impact the game's outcome. And so it's like, to me, there actually does need to be measures surrounding this, but it's tricky because it's like athletes aren't really well versed on this track. Feels like something that's like not really prime in the betting world.

[David]

And if you're betting on your teammate.

[Megan]

To win, I know, I'm. That's belief.

[David]

Because we would do that.

[Megan]

I would bet, actually. It was a lot of money. It was like €2,000, which is a lot. I would bet €2,000 on you. I believe in you. For real.

[David]

I'm.

[Megan]

I'm a betting. I'm actually not a betting woman, but like, if I were a betting woman, I would.

[David]

You're the opposite of that. But I think a lot of runners aren't thinking about this because. And this brings us to a question from a listener. We're starting to have things like fantasy sports in running and there are awards involved. Which brings us to this question. I need your wisdom and pro advice on a topic that seems wildly adjacent to your area of expertise. Not, not adjacent, because guess what? I am by training.

[Megan]

What?

[David]

A lawyer. Not necessarily a good one, not necessarily in this field, but still. I went to law school. First off, I want to hear your reaction to the recent news about sanctions against pro track and field athletes related to sports betting. Could something like this eventually spill over into our beloved world of trail running? Now that free trail fantasy is clearly established in our sport, could it be considered a form of betting? Is money the real trigger point here? We're not putting money down when making our fantasy picks, but top performing free trailers. Free trencherors do sometimes receive pretty solid prizes for successful picks. And for context, this person did get very good prizes for their picks.

[Megan]

Ooh, what did they get?

[David]

I don't give it away because that will give away who this is.

[Megan]

Ah.

[David]

But they're very good and they're very involved in the sport. And that question is tricky. Tricky and fascinating.

[Megan]

Okay, let's start first with a pro track and field complications. So these runners receive sanctions, including one of the runners who voted 2000 betted €2000 on her teammate is banned for six months.

[David]

Months.

[Megan]

Which is a long time.

[David]

She's banned for six months?

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

I actually did not even read that.

[Megan]

Yeah, yeah, it's a long time.

[David]

I kind of skimmed it because I assumed it was going to be a slap on the wrist.

[Megan]

No, no, no. I mean, these are like serious bans. How do you feel about that? And like us, I think for the.

[David]

Integrity of sport, you have to ban gambling. Okay. Just because as soon as you start introducing it, it's a contagion that spreads. And that's the hard part with gambling generally is like, you know, for some people, it can be just like a baseline thing that they occasionally do and it's not a problem at all.

[Megan]

And they might not even think about this much.

[David]

Like drinking. Yeah, exactly. But if someone does become addicted and they're involved in these sports, it not only ruins the integrity of the game, will ruin their lives in different ways. And so, you know, tricky feelings about gambling. Overall, I think people should be allowed to do what they want in life, but when it involves, you know, these types of sports, I think you have to draw a line in the sand.

[Megan]

And when you're a professional in the sport that has inside information, like, you know, betting on your teammates, that's inside information. You see their training, you see their fueling, you see everything.

[David]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, the tricky part is what does this mean about prediction markets? So that's the weird world of gambling now is you have things like DraftKings or whatever. Obviously that feels illegal for an athlete. But what about like Kalshi or Polymarket? That's the new world of sports betting. Where. And it's so freaking weird regulatory wise. Like it's a strange world we live in. So I think that should obviously be banned. The question is, is what about these fantasy systems that have prizes on the other end? And it's tricky.

[Megan]

It's really tricky. I think if you are a pro athlete or a coach in this space, you should not accept the prize. I think. Well, we don't even. We can't. We're like, we have too much inside information. We should not participate. We have never participated in the free trial fantasy.

[David]

Well, you say never. I have participated.

[Megan]

Have you?

[David]

Not recently. Not recently. When it first started, I was like, oh, this is so cool. I want to support it.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Um, and it's not like I did that good.

[Megan]

Come on, man.

[David]

Well, the thing is, I just put swap athletes, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 or whatever.

[Megan]

Come on, man.

[David]

That's a good way to do it. Overall, like, you might win one person, but you're not gonna like, get. You're not gonna hit everybody. You know, it's like a parlay. You don't wanna do that. Um, so I think legally it does venture into scary waters. Yeah.

[Megan]

I think pro athletes and coaches should not participate, actually. Is my. And as sad as it is, like, yeah, you know, it just. I think it's too tricky.

[David]

I don't know. No one gives a shit.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

I think legally, legally that's not my legal advice. Other advice is like, don't do it. Don't do it. But outside of that, you know, if you're not betting money, I think you're fine.

[Megan]

I think just don't accept the prizes. Roll it down to the next person.

[David]

Okay.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Do the golden ticket.

[Megan]

Yeah. Be like, here you go, canyon.

[David]

And then, then you're going to break your finger and no longer be able to click.

[Megan]

No more golden tickets.

[David]

Yeah. So actually a fascinating question and jury's out. Maybe literally. We'll see a lot in the future. Okay, final piece of news here. This was asked by multiple listeners this week, which is always a sign we should talk about it is Chuit Haynes who did Leadville this year, I believe.

[Megan]

In a pair of jeans.

[David]

Pair of jeans.

[Megan]

I was impressed. It was pretty warm out there to be in a pair of jeans.

[David]

Pretty warm. And he has gone public with his goal of running an Olympic trials qualifying marathon. And you know, he has a YouTube and Instagram and really big followings and he's done it in a really, you know, out there way and as a result has gotten extreme amounts of the same types of things I got last year, you know, when I started telling my story a little bit publicly.

[Megan]

Well, I think anytime you tell your story publicly, you're going to get it at about something that's my. The Internet is going to put comments on you no matter what you're telling and what you're saying.

[David]

Yeah. And so here's a. I'll just read one from a listener. My wife and I both love the cast and my wife used the new half marathon plan on patreon to take 21 minutes off her half marathon time while being only six months postpartum. Wow.

[Megan]

Damn.

[David]

I'm a Truett Haynes enjoyer and I thought of you all recently BC shouted out David in a completely positive way regarding David coming back to Leadville after Western states. Truitt is getting a surprise amount of heat because he announced that he wants to try to run in the Olympic qualifying time of 2:16 in the marathon before 20:28. Some people are saying he's doing this just as an attention grab and that is disrespectful for him to even announce his goals. I'd love to hear your takes on this situation. Thank you.

[Megan]

That is absolutely not disrespectful in my book. Like, announce your goals. Be brave about it. Also, my hot take is I don't think he's going to get to the OTQ unless he truly believes it and goes for it. And if he has a YouTube channel and he's just doing that silently, I don't think it's going to happen.

[David]

I just hate this narrative that, like, if you announce a. Yeah, if you announce a low probability goal in any sense, it's like a negative thing. It's like if you're not carrying around a low probability goal there, the problem's with you. You need to just find a goal that is lower probability, not just in running. And other things that give you some, like, I don't know, incentive to try. Like, I don't know, know that you're at the edge and Truett's going to learn that he's at the edge and that's. He's telling that story in a way that like, like, he probably thinks on some level that what he's going to be telling is a story that vindicates the people that hate him. That is a beautiful thing to do. It is so courageous. And so, you know, I'm going to subscribe to his YouTube channel now just to like support him and cheer it on because this is like what I kind of think running is. All about is deciding to do something that is kind of ludicrous and feels impossible.

[Megan]

Yeah. And I don't know all the details, I haven't watched his YouTube, but he did run a 2:30 at CIM and in January, did, did 500 miles in the month. Which when you add that up, it's like 113, 114 miles a week. And if you're gonna run an OTQ, that's how to do it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And he's, I mean, I think it would be different if he was like, oh, I'm gonna run this otq. And then he like doesn't do. But he's putting in the work and he's being public about it and damn, that's cool. I also wonder if the commenters that are like this is disrespectful have some weird chip on their shoulder about belief themselves. Like if it's harder for them to believe in their goals or to like dream big or there's something in life keeping them from doing that.

[David]

I think they have a weird chip on their shoulder about their ass herpes. Ass herpes. We totally uplift it. Lots of people have ass herpes, but they have a chip on their shoulder about it. We're saying embrace and uplift your ass herpes and then you won't be leaving weird comments on the Internet.

[Megan]

Own your hemorrhoids. Yes, yes. Reduce them like bike tires. Talk about it.

[David]

We actually talked about this in the Patreon podcast. Your ass has a microbiome as well.

[Megan]

That's true.

[David]

There's microbiomes all over your body and all the orifices. Every orifice. So you should uplift every single one of those microbiota. Okay, let's go on to the Electrolytes 101 discussion, which is happening a lot later in the pod than I would have expected.

[Megan]

That always happens.

[David]

Always happens. But before that, go to patreon. Patreon.com swap swap starts at $5 a month. Tons of articles, including a big one on electrolytes that pre proceeded this article. Training plans for every distance. Megan's return to run plan. Tons of other things. And also heart rate zones for $10 here. But also, you know, we'll give it to you. Um, so yeah, check out Patreon.

[Megan]

There's a lot going on on there and a fun episode this week we did more burrito league commenting.

[David]

Yeah, really fun one.

[Megan]

I guess our last week of that. It ends. It ended yesterday. Oh, I know.

[David]

Well, maybe we can watch a live stream of Paint drying. Just kidding. Luck Brady League's the coolest thing in the world.

[Megan]

We were hanging out with the 12 other viewers in there.

[David]

Yeah, it was very fun. But also, we were just commenting on the cars and stuff. All right, so let's get on to electrolytes 101. And the hard part about this discussion is this is a place that is. Reminds me a lot of cramping in the literature where you will read wildly varying things, things from what people do in the real world. So, like, for the cramping literature, you'll read, for example, that electrolytes don't matter, which is obviously bullshit for anyone who has, you know, lived the experience as a coach or athlete in this space. And so why can't studies catch it? We don't know. Similarly, with electrolytes, you read every study, every recommendation out there, and you'll get so many different things. And we're going to try to cut through all that noise to bring you what we've seen in the real world of practice. This with lots of different athletes.

[Megan]

And on top of that, humans vary a ton in sweating and electrolyte needs. Like, you know, we look at a lot of these different, like, tests, and we see athletes ranging from 200 milligrams of sodium needs per liter to 2,000, which is a lot. Yeah.

[David]

And we're gonna be talking mostly in per liter as our definition here. So measuring a liter of sweat, how much, like, sodium content is in there? So 200 milligrams to 2000 plus is the range of human experience with median being somewhere between nine hundred and a thousand according to precision fuel and hyd. And so generally, where do you go from there? Like, maybe the weirdest question is, why do they vary so much? And the answer is lots of reasons. But also, we don't know for sure. Probably mostly genetic reasons that we haven't fully uncovered and might never.

[Megan]

And to make it even more complicated, so we vary among us between, you know, between humans, but we also vary within us in terms of day to day. And there's some, like, actually quite interesting studies about varying seasons by season. And one thing I learned that was kind of counterintuitive is actually, like, our sweat sodium concentration actually drops in the summer months because our body becomes more acclimated to heat and heat training. And so, you know, our own individual sweat needs change day by day. And so it's like, if you do a test, how do you follow that up and replicate it? Like, there's lots of questions.

[David]

Yeah. And that's why, like, this discussion is going to be full of nuance, but I think we've developed a really good way to isolate it. So just a.

[Megan]

Have we fucked nuance enough?

[David]

Have we fucked nuance enough? Yeah, I don't know.

[Megan]

Are you BFFs a nuance at this point?

[David]

Give a gentle massage.

[Megan]

You're like, we don't do that. I feel like Megan, I don't co.

[David]

Sign, I don't cosign that statement. Usually I'm yes.

[Megan]

And on that one I'm like, girl.

[David]

I don't know.

[Megan]

You're saving us. It's a good position to be.

[David]

We're not going to be allowed back in the carousel very quickly. 2022 study tried to explain sweat variation and, and they couldn't really find a distinct pattern across 2,000 sweat tests. Points out the problem. Uh, we do know that dietary sodium intake affects it. So a 2018 study found up to 30% increases in blood, you know, in sodium in your sweat on a six gram of day per salt diet. So that's pretty high.

[Megan]

That was in addition to regular diet too. So.

[David]

And then a 2008 review study that found what Megan said with lower salt rate in the stomach. And you go across all these studies, we don't really know. On top of that you have genetic. Maybe the most complicated part is not genetics, but epigenetics. How the environment changes the expression of your underlying baseline. And that can be even things. Like I read one like case study where how much children sweat when they're very young influences how their sweat glands act when they're older. So they'll have more sweat glands, sweat more their higher sweat rate based on their sweat when they're young.

[Megan]

That's fascinating. I profusely sweated as a kid and that actually made me really embarrassed. Oh, interesting. Were you the same way?

[David]

No, actually, I don't think so. I didn't remember it. I had other things to be embarrassed about.

[Megan]

Our field hockey team played in these light blue T shirts and I was just sweat soaked by the end of games and tournaments and always just like, oh my goodness, this is so much.

[David]

That is so interesting. And it does overlap. Like one of your big insecurities when I met you was like the type of shirt you wear when you exercise and things like you wanted dark shirts.

[Megan]

Or when I gave presentations because sometimes I felt deeply about, you know, just caring about public speaking and being stressed out. I would finish with just like sweat everywhere. I did a med school interview in like this gray jacket and sweated entirely through it.

[David]

I Remember picking you up from some of those interviews and it looked like you had been in the pool. And you know, what we're talking about here is the sodium concentration rather than the sweat rate, which, you know, determines two different things. Yeah, two different things. Like, we've talked about hydration before, and I have a full primer article on hydration on Patreon. Next up, nutrition approach. And then finally, the weirdest one of all stresses. So, you know, seasonal can be 1.

[Megan]

1.

[David]

Your sweat rate can change as you adapt to heat or other things. But maybe the weirdest of all is how it changes across an event. So whatever baseline you start with, whatever you think you're gonna do in hour one, that's probably should be different than what you do in hour six or hour 12. And we do not know how that changes, though. Usually what I tell athletes is your sodium content in your sweat decreases as you go. So whatever sodium intake you start with, you can usually comfortably decrease by 30ish percent, though possibly more more across an event.

[Megan]

And it becomes so complicated because as you're out there in an ultra, it can become very difficult to tell apart the symptoms between having too much sodium and having too little sodium, because they look similar. And so that adds more complications onto this. And I feel like if you looked exact numbers in exact data. This is a very tricky field for you.

[David]

Very tricky field. Like what I've always heard is one like sweat rings being on you, like the salt or whatever. And I'm like, doesn't tell you a thing.

[Megan]

Everyone's got sweat rings.

[David]

Everyone's got sweat rings at times. And it could mean one of a number of things. And then the other is like swollen fingers. Some people are like, oh, it's too much sodium. Other people, oh, it's too little. Like, swollen fingers is just something that happens to fingers. Don't read into it too much or.

[Megan]

Temperature or, you know, any number of things.

[David]

Yeah. And so that's. How do you even test this? And from that we'll go to how you apply the numbers. Um, so there's a few different ways. The first one is to just assume you're the median to start and then guess and test from there. So the median being 900 to a thousand milligrams for 32 ounces of fluid consumed. You can do the ratios from there. Um, and usually from there you can then adjust up if you feel like I'd have more sodium than this, or adjust down, see what makes you feel better in harder efforts. Problem is, how do you know you're on the right track. The answer is you're probably not gonna know till hours eight when you're suffering or hour, you know, two and a half in a marathon.

[Megan]

And I think it becomes especially tricky for outliers. Like we've had athletes come to us with GI issues and realize they're in the like first percentile in terms of sweat sodium concentration, where athletes that are feeding at the end of races kind of just without real reason and realize that they're very heavy sweaters. And so I feel like, you know, obviously applying that approach is tricky.

[David]

If you're not, it's tricky, but assuming you're the median when there is a big bulge in the middle of the bell curve can work. And so that's the place to like generally start.

[Megan]

It's actually interesting I anchor that a little lower with athletes.

[David]

Oh really?

[Megan]

Because sometimes I feel like over salting can be so tricky that sometimes I anchor it at like 7:50 to 800.

[David]

Oh, dude. Really?

[Megan]

I know. Isn't that weird?

[David]

Not me. And even when I get these numbers that about to talk about the actual numbers, I'm like, you can throw a little more in and then decrease as you go based on feel. Um, so maybe that's also colored by our own personal experience where you found sodium during training in racing especially, isn't that important for you. Whereas for me it is as important as carbs for you.

[Megan]

You're running into aid stations at javelina just being like salt tabs.

[David]

Exactly.

[Megan]

Anyone?

[David]

Yeah. And probably I over adjusted at javelina for lower intakes as I went, knowing what I've learned at other races. And for some reason it didn't apply to my body on that day, though it has in the past.

[Megan]

Past.

[David]

Okay, then the next one and the one test I like, actually I'd love to hear what you like is the precision at rest test. Um, so precision fuel and hydration does these all over the world where you can just go and get a test. We, we both got it where they put a patch on your arm just lying there, which is great.

[Megan]

Isn't it nice to do like a functionally exercise physiology test without exercising?

[David]

So great. I would love to do a VO2 max test if I could do it while watching like glove is blind. And so then they initiate sweat and measure the contents of that. Obviously that comes with limitations. You could see there might even be different sweat rates across different parts of the body. Like especially with the content of it. Who knows? Um, but from there you get a number that then you can have a Little bit more of an informed guess as the starting point for calibration.

[Megan]

And that's kind of how I like doing that, is using that number. The other thing I like doing is sometimes I've had elite athletes have access to lab testing, and lab testing is the gold standard. Where you're in a lab, they're sending it out for very direct or running it right there in their lab. The measurement on that is much more like direct and precise than it would be if you're wearing a sweat patch out in the wild.

[David]

Well, it depends how they're doing the test, though.

[Megan]

Yes, that's true.

[David]

Because even in labs you'll see variable results for the same athlete.

[Megan]

Also, it can change based off of environmental condition within the lab, how they run the test. Like, it can be complicated, but I feel like it's still. That is the gold standard. And when you compare that to patches in terms of, like, what's out there in the scientific literature, it's, you know, there's a lot of variation.

[David]

Yeah. And then that gets to patches. So a 2026 study just came out on those that found, unfortunately, they're not all that accurate. They're, they're close. Like, they can be a starting point. They're better than assuming you're the median. Um, but in this test, the two patches they measured, the sodium was off by 19%.

[Megan]

It's a lot, A lot, but it's at least close. 50%. Yeah.

[David]

And maybe since we're providing, I mean, my error bars are probably 20%, so, you know, it's close enough. Um, in the sweat, on the sweat rate, one sensor was correct and the other was quite low. And here's a quote from the conclusion. Measurements from both devices should currently be interpolated with caution and not considered equivalent to laboratory grade analyses. So, yeah, I mean, the NICS biosensor, things like that, when I did it, it gave me such different results across different tests that I'm like, I'd like it as, you know, throwing dart boards against a wall with a blindfold and then you can look at where they were and be, all right. Well, that's generally where things are, but you're always going to have to calibrate.

[Megan]

I think the struggle that I have is it's marketed to be so precise ice. It's like you need 1.96 liters of an hour. And I think that's actually where the tricky thing is, is sometimes athletes get these, like, you know, huge readings on the biosensor data and are like, okay, I'm gonna need to drink two liters an hour. And it is not always and in fact not often one to one replacement or really ever.

[David]

And the whole point with sweat in general, both sodium and sweat rate, which we're talking about glass, so how much you sweat is that there are compensatory mechanisms in the body that mean that whatever your sweat rate is in a one hour time test is not what happens to your body and what you need to replace. It's not a one to one ratio either. With, especially with sweat rate. Um, sodium I do think is a little bit more one to one, though some people would argue you'd go a little less like you say, um, and the reason is evolutionarily, yeah, we'll start throwing off fluid right away, but as we start to do that, your body slows down the process. So as it relates to sweat rate, this is not topic of this, but I tell athletes, do not go above a liter an hour unless, you know, you need a bubble lead an hour.

[Megan]

Or unless it's very, very hot.

[David]

Yes, very, very hot, like a hundred degrees and humid. But usually even the athletes that get sweat rate tests that tell them they're like 2.5 liters, if they do a liter, they'll be fine because their body will then click into compensation that is better than trying to take in two liters an hour. But that's not the topic of this discussion. It may be a little too much nuance.

[Megan]

Two liters an hour, can you imagine imagine doing that and then going on the carousel after your long run? You'd be like spewing everywhere.

[David]

Those tests have told me that you know, the next biosensor at times and then other times it's told me quite low. Um, and interestingly, a little side point about the science of this is the at rest tests by precision were adopted from tests for cystic fibrosis, a condition where sodium rate in sweat is very, very high. And so I like that, that this is medical grade equipment that gives me a little bit more confidence than some of the patches actually.

[Megan]

And you can have cystic fibrosis variants and be a heavily salted, heavily salting sweater, which I find fascinating too. And so like, you know, the human body to genetics to push you in one direction of sodium sweat rate. To me I'm like, that's cool.

[David]

Yeah. And then there's so many other variables that we just don't know though we could probably start to isolate them across the entire genome if we really cared. But I mean, we should measure the brain first. And figure out the brain. All right, so how do you apply it from here? Because no matter what number you get, it's a general range that then you're going to need to calibrate over time. And so I like to group it into three different cohorts. The first is light sodium, generally 200-700 mg per liter. Relevant because those athletes. Athletes need to be careful even with sports drink. Like, they need to be taking in more water, monitoring their sweat intake. This is a small group, but they'll usually have GI issues if they take too much in.

[Megan]

And I consider moderate sodium used to be around 700 to 1100 milligrams per liter of fluid. And I think this is an area that you can get that in with either sports drink, especially things like Hyperlite or Scratch or doing so in a combination of like gels and salt tubs.

[David]

Yeah, you'll usually need some salt supplementation for these at least athletes, not an aggressive amount. This is where most people fall. And you wanna know your sodium. Get some salt on board and then figure out how you can adjust. But then on the other hand, you have heavy sodium, which is 1100 all the way to 2200/ milligrams per liter of fluid. And these athletes need to be sodium creatures. They need to think about this a lot. Because for these athletes especially, but for everybody, this isn't just like a race day performance thing. If an athlete, athlete, like, for example, gets very wrecked from their training, like, they just are like, why am I so tired from this? The usual answer is, oh, are you under fueling? And often athletes like, I am feeling fine. And then you find out, oh, they might be a heavier salt sweater than they're taking in by a substantial margin. And if you get really low on sodium, it does give you that wrecked feeling where you just kind of want to sit on the couch.

[Megan]

And this is where I feel like, precision tabs. That's like kind of our favorite way to do sodium outside of training for you inside of training too. Putting that in a wine glass class, it's like my favorite way to recover post run.

[David]

Yeah, absolutely. Just like pour it down your chest. It's that good. Um, okay. And then the guidelines. During long and hard efforts, try to practice race day approaches and calibrate. Because calibration might go up or down. You'll figure it out as you go. Um, during normal training and easy runs, you probably don't need to think about it too much. Your normal nutrition and dietary options are fine. Um, though including some electrolytes can be helpful in your water. Water for the fatigue reasons and for the performance reasons and also adapting your stomach. Um, and then during life, you know, I like to have my precision tabs because I enjoy them. But generally your diet is great and you don't wanna overdo like excess sodium intake because then you're just gonna increase whatever your baseline sodium rate is anyway.

[Megan]

Do you have a favorite form of sodium intake either for you or for your athletes? So like, you know, you can get sodium from a lot of different places. Like you know, gels have electrolytes in them, sports drinks, tabs, pills. Do you like have a go to option that you recommend?

[David]

Mozzarella sticks. Perfect.

[Megan]

Same.

[David]

I personally like sports drink most of all. Right. Like scratch is great. Something like that. And doing it at one times concentration or maybe even 1.2 up to 1.25. And sometimes you can get all you need from that. That's my dream world. And then do I like from there tabs or pills? I used to say taps, but they're so tricky to use in races that I like them in training more because you're not in a rush in races when they might cause your bottle to explode. I'm leaning more towards salt pills as I progress as a coach.

[Megan]

Yeah, I struggle swallowing pills while running. Oh, isn't that weird?

[David]

Yeah, yeah, you're really just disappointing. Disappointing in the swallowing game. Um, yeah, I. That's strange actually. Why?

[Megan]

I don't know. Maybe I'm just not drinking enough water with it. I've had athletes have that actually where, you know, swallowing pills trigger some kind of gag, gag reflex. And sticking more to like the gels or drinks can be helpful.

[David]

Yeah. So that's electrolytes in a nutshell. Um, find what cohort you're in, calibrate from there. Start in the middle if you don't do a test. But understanding this is essential. And if you have weird fatigue processes, whether that's GI issues that are unexplained by other reasons, or you cramp violently without knowing why, or you just underperform in every long race relative to your training. Training. If it's not carbs, it's probably the electrolytes hydration nexus. And you know, we didn't talk about sweat rate here in total hydration, but dialing in the electrolyte total is maybe the most important part of that.

[Megan]

And I think if you fall into that camp, maybe consider bicarb, both for the sodium load. Like, you know, sodium bicarb 15 is like around 4 grams of sodium, which is a lot when you think about that. That's a big sodium load. Would you have.

[David]

Have.

[Megan]

I typically don't have athletes adjust their electrolytes because it. It seems like continuing normal electrolytes is fine. How do you operate under that?

[David]

Just same.

[Megan]

Same.

[David]

Yeah, same. It seems to work really well doing it in that way. And that might be one of the reasons that bicarb causes performance improvements is it increases serum sodium. So lots more to come on this. And another one of those places where we just need more studies, especially studies over an event. I wanna see someone at one hour, two hours, all the way to eight hours.

[Megan]

Hours.

[David]

And I don't know how you measure that in the lab. It's the problem with ultra science generally. It's all terrible bullshit. No offense, because we're not actually measuring the body under extreme stress. We're measuring it under light stress and then extrapolating it to extreme stress. But genetics don't work that way. The human genome is adapted to have all these compensatory mechanisms, and we're living in the compensation state for most of our events, including in, like, hard marathons at the end of them. And thus, you know, we're kind of operating with a blindfold. And assuming we know what we're looking at. And the answer is we're. We don't.

[Megan]

Oh, we should just put an athlete on a treadmill inside a lab and be like, today we are going to Everest on this treadmill and we're going to measure a bunch of different parameters.

[David]

I like that. Yeah. Who would do it?

[Megan]

Oh, probably a lot of people who. Oh, you would do that, probably.

[David]

No, I don't even. I don't.

[Megan]

You're like, I don't even want to give my body to science.

[David]

I kind of do now. Measure me. Measure me like one of your French girls.

[Megan]

Oh, yeah.

[David]

Okay. Okay, let's go on. We'll skip the low intensity study. So let's just get to questions. What do you think?

[Megan]

Let's do it.

[David]

Okay. We had a sweat question. We'll skip that. Because we talked a lot about sweat. Too much about sweat, I would say.

[Megan]

I was. I think it was just enough about sweat.

[David]

Just. Just enough.

[Megan]

I felt satisfied.

[David]

I'm worrying you're having flashbacks to your field hockey days.

[Megan]

I. For some reason, I was such a heavy sweater.

[David]

Yeah, I don't think you are now.

[Megan]

I don't think I am now. It's weird. I feel like my body has kind of, like, gone away from that. Maybe I just don't wear clothes anymore. So. Yeah, that's the difference.

[David]

No, you do wear clothes. Sometimes. Sometimes.

[Megan]

Sometimes.

[David]

It is curious though. I'm actually serious. That is a very interesting change.

[Megan]

Oh, I sweated so much as a kid. Like, I mean I would finish like field hockey games just being like everyone else would look fine and I was just the girl that was like covered in sweat. Maybe I just ran harder. Yeah, it's also hard.

[David]

Motherfuckers want to sweat test you. Okay. AI question, let's start here. Hoping you could help with a complex question. I've been using Gemini so Google's AI project platform to try to figure out how to train whilst getting heavy inspiration from your 50k plan on Patreon. I'm autoimmune with a mild disease which causes me to recover slower than most people and I had mild osteopenia on Adesco San about a year ago. And I have a full time job with long hours. I like 50k events and mainly I want to be fit for such distances. This is what Gemini thinks I should do, featuring a big training plan. Would you be so kind to give me your thoughts?

[Megan]

Okay, well, you were giving me your live reading of thoughts as you looked through this plan and it was a bonkers plan.

[David]

It was so much intensity.

[Megan]

And also Gemini was like, like shelling this athlete made very little sense. Yeah.

[David]

And yeah, I mean it's just interesting. Like the training recommendations. I'm getting so much more of this of like, okay, I t. I plugged it into Chat GPT and here's what they said and all this and it's so nauseating because it's bad. Like it's, it's objectively bad.

[Megan]

Well, I think the cool thing about ultra running and training and even marathon or half marathon training is there's still a lot of nuance evolved in it. And I think feel like ChatGPT and Gemini have not caught up to that.

[David]

And they're just pulling on bad sources and it makes me skeptical of everything because as you see how they structure a week or whatever, it's like you have no idea what a week is like to Gemini. You don't know.

[Megan]

Actually sometimes they like every once in a while ChatGPT will just give me the totally wrong date. Has that happened to you recently?

[David]

No.

[Megan]

Yeah, sometimes I'm like, here, do this calculation for today. And it's like today, August 25, 2025. And I'm like, what are you. You smoking?

[David]

To be fair, weeks aren't actually a thing.

[Megan]

It's a construct.

[David]

It's a human construct. It doesn't mean anything astronomically. Um, so maybe they're onto something about how we should structure training. But in general, these plans are relative trash still. And I don't know exactly why, because it's not just like the weekly plans or the monthly plans that are pretty bad. It's also, like, workout suggestions, basic stuff. And my guess is they're pulling from too many sources, and they try to bring it together to a median, and.

[Megan]

They'Re pulling from so many sources, and they're like, we're going to do a road marathon workout and a track workout and hill strides all in one, not.

[David]

Understanding anything about what is actually underlying it. And no one has cared to program it for that reason. And so the counterpoint to that would be, well, what about Runna, let's say, or something that is tailored specifically to that. And so I want an experiment. Do you know where your phone is?

[Megan]

Oh, it's right over here.

[David]

Perfect.

[Megan]

I'm actually a little scared. What are we doing?

[David]

I'm going to do Strava Instant workouts.

[Megan]

Oh, I actually have not clicked on this yet.

[David]

I know you haven't, which is why we wanted to bring it up. So Strava now has incorporated AI into their.

[Megan]

Okay, where do I find this?

[David]

I think it is on your athlete page. So go to your athlete page. We are looking.

[Megan]

Oh, new workouts for you.

[David]

Perfect. Hopefully Megan has updated the app. Okay, so we want to set your.

[Megan]

Vibes, get workouts each week. Says, I want to stay consistent, build fitness, mix it up. I want to take it easy. I definitely want to build fitness.

[David]

Yes. I'm excited for this. Okay, let's do maximum trail effort. See what they recommend. Um, they want her to go very, very hard. What route do they want her to do? Okay, that's interesting. All right, so it's all just going very, very hard. Let's see now they're going to suggest a route.

[Megan]

It suggests a route.

[David]

I hope they take you off a cliff.

[Megan]

Come on.

[David]

Come on. No, actually, pretty good route.

[Megan]

Oh. It took me to North Sky Trail here in Boulder. That's a beautiful one.

[David]

I don't know.

[Megan]

Sanitas Valley via.

[David]

Yeah, not North Sky. Megan's not very good at maps.

[Megan]

Oh, yeah, you're right. No, actually, the. The cut across the map looked like north sky, but it's Sanitas Valley.

[David]

It's, like, four or five miles away.

[Megan]

Why does it have me running from town? Yeah, it has to be running from a coffee shop in town. It looks like.

[David]

All right, let's go. Let's go back. That one is actually okay. Maximum trail effort. Let's see if any more are good here. We might be disproving my thesis on.

[Megan]

The spot trail endurance challenge.

[David]

Keep going, keep going. To workouts. Let's see if they have any interval workouts.

[Megan]

Threshold power build on the bike. Progression run.

[David]

Okay, these are all pretty darn boring.

[Megan]

Gravel Progression ride. Everything's just for. Maybe that's. Is it based off of my training that I do just a lot of steady Z2 time.

[David]

Okay, that was not. That was not as fun as I thought it was gonna be. Sorry listeners, we should go back to.

[Megan]

Live stream week to tell you. I mean, after your 10 by mile.

[David]

So I've seen from other people that one person had like 20 by 800 at VO2 max pace.

[Megan]

Oh my lordy.

[David]

But long story short, I think that these places are still lacking. I think RUNA or things like that are a much better option than just general AI systems. Like you should not use those for training. The running specific ones probably. Okay. Because they understand the baseline, you know, background. Like they've given that context window to the actual app. But for now, I'm just kind of turning into more of an AI skeptic. You know what it is?

[Megan]

What?

[David]

All the creative stuff, like all the messages I'm getting that are written by AI.

[Megan]

Oh, that. And to me, it's like my brain has this mechanism. Like as soon as I realize something is written by AI, I'm like, ah.

[David]

Yeah, don't do this. I mean, maybe our future is it. And maybe I'm just being an old person.

[Megan]

But like, no, I mean, I don't think. I think messages. I think personal communication is where I draw the line. In addition to like, you know, if you're going to write something social media or like, you know, write something creatively, it's like make it your own brain creative. Yeah, yeah.

[David]

But maybe we're just being like antiquated dinosaurs.

[Megan]

But I think it might be the way that like AI structures things where it has like the emojis as points and when people do that, I'm like, oh no.

[David]

Yeah, but it's everything, right? Like, what was the Sora that OpenAI came out with? Like, I heard a little bit about it for the first week, like a lot about it and then heard nothing about it it since, which is the video generation app. I think in the creative world, people kind of hate this stuff.

[Megan]

Oh yeah? Yeah.

[David]

And even if it's good, like, even if you read something and it's good. Like it could generate good things, but like, something about it feels weird. Like it feels off enough that maybe there's an element of creativity or maybe there's an element of intellectual ability generally. Maybe there's an element in the human brain that simply cannot be replicated by machines. Even machines that are, you know, super generic geniuses like they might be in a few years.

[Megan]

Well, I would love to take a study and just expose, you know, give humans a bunch of different writing and have them select which one is written by AI and see how good we are at it.

[David]

Yeah, they've probably done that. And it's probably harder than you think.

[Megan]

It's probably harder than we think. Yeah, they probably have done that actually. We should look that up.

[David]

Long story short, be careful with using AI for training.

[Megan]

Also. AI is hanging out together on Reddit, basically.

[David]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a whole other thing.

[Megan]

That's the true, like, we're not book.

[David]

I'm not going to get into that. Like, I try to follow this stuff pretty closely. And for writers out there, do not lean on it. You can lean onto it maybe for like plot points. If you're trying to figure out different ways you could take a story or.

[Megan]

Like a different word, be like, yo, give me a word for yeah, yeah.

[David]

Just like how you would use a friend maybe, but like using it for writing. Like, the whole idea of writing, I think is not to structure some like approach that makes makes logical sense. It is to structure something that doesn't make logical sense but then coalesces in the reader's brain into a full whole. And that is a learned process that you have to do through trial and error. I think we might just see the weirdest trajectories for writing because of this stuff.

[Megan]

I also wonder. Writing is one of those things that you feel you kind of have to flex repeatedly to one, be good at it, but two, to get past that writer's block area. And I would love to understand how AI is. In some ways it probably helps writer's block, but is it also contributing to writer's block?

[David]

Who knows? Yeah, you just become reliant on it. Okay, um, let's go into this question. Before we do that. We should probably talk about wahoo treadmills at some point. Yeah, you did your 12 by 5 minute workout on it.

[Megan]

It was so smooth.

[David]

Wahoo kicker run, absolutely stellar. We got like, I don't know, they're just so smooth. Like at four minute miles it does not move at all. So if you're looking for that next level device, go to our show notes. Click on the Wahoo link. Use code swap up. That thing absolutely rocks.

[Megan]

It is a tank. It feels so stable on the ground as you're running on it. Also, I love hitting the paddle. Like none of our workouts are pre programmed in and it's really nice. We actually, I feel like we should talk more on the YouTube about how we paste the 12 by 5 and structure that. But like I just enjoy hitting that paddle and doing it manually hitting the paddle.

[David]

But interestingly, if you're on social media and you see pro runners posting their workouts on the kicker run, most of those pro runners are not getting it for free. They're paying for for it. It's the treadmill that the pros buy when they have the money likely from their shoe sponsor to buy one of these devices. It's that good. Okay, let's get on to the rest of the questions and do you want to rapid fire it?

[Megan]

Let's do it.

[David]

Let's go as fast as we can.

[Megan]

Okay, let's actually every time we're like, we're going to rapid fire, we're like, here's a long tangent about AI well.

[David]

We didn't get to any questions last week.

[Megan]

Yeah, let's do it. We're almost there this week.

[David]

Yeah. Okay. On Gnomeo, Gnomeo is straight up witchcraft, broccoli, exclamation point. I just pretty easily floated through what would be a pretty intense interval threshold workout with. Without Gnomeo, it would be intense and with it it is very good. I usually run by feel, but I just felt delightfully floaty on Gnomeo, even while pushing hard and clearly sweating a ton. How in the world do I figure out my effort while on this stuff?

[Megan]

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I feel like this is an area where a heart rate monitor can help, but also at the same time, if you feel good, just let it flow.

[David]

It is strange. It does decrease perceived exertion for me.

[Megan]

Pretty substantially in a way to me that bicarb does not. Bicarb does. I mean, bicarb to me feels more performance enhancing. Gnomeo to me feels like it's more floaty for feeling.

[David]

Yeah, no meal is interesting. I'm so curious to see what happens over the next two years with this stuff. Like, I didn't fully commit to it until more recently. And the way it makes my body feel overall is really good.

[Megan]

Even then throughout the day later on for me that's. That might be a weird placebo thing for me.

[David]

Yeah, that's the thing. And it might just be that you're in a good groove with training.

[Megan]

So I'm like, training must flow and I feel good. I'm gonna carry this the rest of the day.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's one. If you're looking to experiment. I wouldn't experiment with bicarb first. I'd experiment with Gnomeo, actually.

[Megan]

It feels more natural.

[David]

That's where I've changed my, my tune is like. I could see taking gnomeo when I'm 90. I do not think I'm going to be taking bicarb when I'm 90.

[Megan]

Oh, for sure not. That's, that's gonna end as soon as we're done. Our high level athletic. I don't know. I really enjoy that feeling.

[David]

Yeah, exactly.

[Megan]

So give it a try.

[David]

Let us know how you like it. It's also less expensive.

[Megan]

Did you see this Strato comment of a guy that was making his own Gnomeo? And I was like, do you have like six pounds of broccoli per one?

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

He's like, it's a lot cheaper if you make it yourself. And it's like, is it really? I don't know about that.

[David]

Getting intimate with broccoli over there. Okay, next one on zone two. It's a long question, so should I summarize it? I'm just gonna go for it. Several months ago I hired a coach believing in myself to be on the edge of success and wanting an experienced hand to push me over the line. This is when I Learned about Zone 2 training. And my God, my aerobic system sucks. Once finding my heart rate zones easy, days went from from very fast to now 2 plus per minutes per mile. Fat slower on flat ground. Troll runs are even worse as I find myself needing to walk a lot to stay in zone two. It's been about six months of zone two training and my average pace over that time has remained constant. I'd assumed it would get better by now and I've made certain sacrifices in the meantime for that long term goal, such as running predominantly alone, to not make my friends run these paces. And I'm going crazy. I'm torn because I genuinely want to succeed and see how good a runner I can be. And I know that this base building is temporary. However, I find the joy of running has been stripped away. Now that I'm running alone, my watch is constantly buzzing at me that I've exceeded zone two and the uncertainty of how long this phase will last. And then question. We have two things on this for me. But while building aerobic capacity, is it okay to run with friends and have a fuck it trail day knowing fully well I'll be zone in zone three and zone four. For mental sanity, how much if any, will that detract from aerobic base building?

[Megan]

Well, I say fuck it. This sounds rough. Six months in C2 is a long time and I think it's actually not performance enhancing.

[David]

Huge red flag. Yeah, like everything in this message. Massive red flag.

[Megan]

Well, I also Wonder because their Z2 was so far off their easy run pace, I also wonder if the z2 was calculated correctly. Like the heart rate zones seem a little shifted. Yeah, it like they shouldn't be running that easy in zone two. This seems like it might be. You know, sometimes Garmin actually creates zones and I look at them and I'm like no. And I wonder if the zones were done from that. So I have a lot of of questions about this.

[David]

Yeah, it's starting to throw up in my mouth a little bit as a coach here.

[Megan]

Same.

[David]

And, and this is probably an amazing coach, but I think that the coach is misguiding you a little bit on your zone too. Unless you are a very strange physiological specimen. Because this person told me their marathon time and their easy pace is pretty far offset from that in like ways that are like, if you've run that marathon time, you've done enough aerobic training to have better fat oxidation than that, most likely. Um, thus if you find your zone two or three or what, you're like, you're easy or whatever is being forced to slow down so much that you can't even run with friends. Um, there's a broader scale issue with how it's being calculated, most likely. And so I think this was the aerobic drift test. Um, and as we talked about before, you can have 20 athletes do the aerobic drift test and get totally different responses. Um, because of how it's measured and how it changes day to day. We've talked about that before.

[Megan]

Also. You can measure it in yourself 20 different times and get totally different.

[David]

It really depends on how you approach the test. Nomio helps you a lot. Oh yes, by the way. Thus it is. It can work and it will often if you throw darts at the wall, it will catch your zone too. But you really have to know your body. You have to be perfect at calculating it. If you're not, you might get a situation like this or where it's set way too high. And that doesn't mean it's bad. It just means get another Source of data. So maybe this is your zone 2, but send me in a heart rate link and let me see a hard workout and then I'll let you know. Oh, is that in the realm of reasonable? Because often these athletes will come back and it's like it's maybe 15 or 20 beats per minute off what it should be.

[Megan]

Also, the other red flag too is just being beholden to the watch this much. Like, even if your watch metrics are accurate and like your watch is buzzing at you and you have to slow down, it's like, like that framework for training, one is not fun and two, I actually don't think is beneficial.

[David]

And that's how physiology works.

[Megan]

Your physiology is not beeping at you. It's like, like, you know, your physiology doesn't get to 152 heart rate and it's like, beep, beep, beep.

[David]

It's all happening on a spectrum all the times. And I think that can. Zone 2 conversations can sometimes miss that. Uh, nowadays in training theory, we're training everything all the time. And yes, that means mostly easy and mostly under LT1.

[Megan]

Actually, I love those studies. The study that we skipped this week was showing the benefits of very easy training or relatively easy training on VO2 max and LT1. And it was high.

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And I love that. It's like, I. I don't know. As I've gotten older, I'm like, I just want to go eat easy.

[David]

Yeah. But also, training hard is good for LT1 in moderation. So. Yeah, this is too strict. Too much going on here. Say, fuck it, go run with your friends. Go run with your friends. And maybe even throw away your watch for a second and just start running and go by feel. And then when you come back, you'll have recalibrated that system. And so I said that to the listener and I feel like they didn't love my answer. Um.

[Megan]

Oh, no, really?

[David]

Maybe they did. Maybe they did. Maybe I. I'm sensitive.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Then I probably am. He's like. I hate to ever say, like, anything where I'm like, hey, send me in something rather than just go with it, but I don't know. I didn't get a follow up yet, so we'll see.

[Megan]

Yeah, well, maybe they're out running with their friends. Maybe they're too busy, maybe gallivanting.

[David]

Maybe they unsubscribe from Patreon.

[Megan]

I want to know more about heart rate drip.

[David]

Yeah, unfortunately, we will be honest, even if it might not be what you want to hear.

[Megan]

Yeah, we are always honest.

[David]

There are some places where we're not like, what? Okay, you might delete all that thing.

[Megan]

Yeah, we're just gonna be like. I'm gonna be like. We always have honest conversations and you're gonna be like, yeah.

[David]

Wait, wait, wait. Let me get it so we can get the edit. No laughing. No laughing. Okay, perfect. Yep. Always honest on here.

[Megan]

Did we just edit something else?

[David]

A little bit of an edit there.

[Megan]

I wonder what it could be.

[David]

We're advanced. Hey, maybe if we create a new tier in Patreon.

[Megan]

Oh, my God. The honest tier you get. Like, you email us and we're not really.

[David]

We're not putting out.

[Megan]

But these are like the smallest things.

[David]

We're not putting out for a reason to protect you guys. Okay, let's. That wasn't rapid fire at all.

[Megan]

It's tricky. No, not at all.

[David]

Okay, next one. Hello. Quick question for you guys. Do you think it's necessary to switch directions when completing workouts on the track to avoid turning the same way the whole time? Does this reduce injury risk?

[Megan]

I actually do think it's beneficial with very big workouts, but I think it has to be like a pretty big workout or pretty big time duration on the track. You also just run in lane seven or lane eight, and that reduces some of the, like, the turning force on your body.

[David]

Generally what I see is that like true speed workouts are done in one direction. If you're starting to do larger threshold style workouts, start going the other direction and sometimes even do those other direction parts in lane seven or eight. Um, so understand the general vicinity of where that should be. Um, so threshold work in like long duration workouts for sure go the other way if you're doing true speed on the track. Unless you're doing the trick track, like tons, which you shouldn't be. Just go the same direction. Keep it simple.

[Megan]

Okay. You don't. You're not really a track boy. In your history, have you ever run in lane seven?

[David]

Lane seven? Yeah, I've run lane seven.

[Megan]

You have?

[David]

Yeah. Like when there's like an actual track team in the middle and I don't want to get in the way. Yeah, I used to be really scared to get in the way.

[Megan]

I know you always feel that way.

[David]

I never wanted to take up space.

[Megan]

Even now after like your Leadville wins and everything, you're like, I don't want to take up space.

[David]

Oh, no, no.

[Megan]

Take up space, man.

[David]

Not at that level in my own head, no matter what I do. Okay, next up. Is there a reason you prefer the Bike to the elliptical for cross training. Is it just more fun for you or is it more beneficial to running than the elliptical? I gravitate towards the elliptical because I like to be upright. But I'm curious as to why I see so many riders biking. Maybe just because elliptical is boring as heck. Ha ha.

[Megan]

Yeah. Elliptical kind of is boring as heck and it makes my toes go numb. I think I've switched this in, like, more towards zwift and indoor biking and outdoor riding. One because it's more fun. And as a result of it being more fun, I think you can do better, longer, harder stimuli than you could on the elliptical. Um, and so, you know, if athletes have access to biking, that' my first cross training modality.

[David]

Yeah. Here's a question that I haven't answered for myself. You can get better at biking in a very substantial way. Right. Like you can increase your functional threshold power. This equivalent metric on the elliptical. Can you improve it as much?

[Megan]

I think you can. I think it's just harder to measure because, like, elliptical measurement is so janky. Every time I elliptical, it's like you elliptical 14 miles the last hour. I was like, no, I didn't. Yeah, well, as like, as it like equates to running. Yeah.

[David]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's just, it's tricky. My answer to this is, is that the initial adaptation period with elliptical, like, athletes don't really get better and better and better at it. Whereas if you commit to bike, you get more and more and more proficient at the bike and then you can do three or four hour bikes and you can't do three or four hour ellipticals unless you hate your toes.

[Megan]

Yeah. I think it's just a measurement thing though. I mean, we're not really measuring getting better at elliptical.

[David]

I think it's so much of an economy problem with elliptical.

[Megan]

That's true. I think elliptical economy is probably.

[David]

You're measuring elliptical economy, not power.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Whereas on the bike you're measuring power. Bike economy isn't really a thing or it's very thing at the moment. Margins. And so I think bike is much more distilling you down to an aerobic creature and improving that, whereas elliptical is just improving your ability on the machine, but without necessarily downstream impacts of like improving your power.

[Megan]

Well, I had to spend some time on the elliptical at 24 Hour Fitness when I was pregnant because the bike would give me contractions. And as I was on there, I was like, God damn. I remember why I've been on this for a minute.

[David]

The bike is giving you A lot of different physical sensations.

[Megan]

Yeah. It was going to be contractions for some reason.

[David]

So you've had contractions and what you.

[Megan]

Have this summer, new nuance.

[David]

Nuance. Nuance.

[Megan]

The nuance on the bicycle.

[David]

People have to listen to that episode to get that.

[Megan]

You can imagine. That was a bicarb, by the way.

[David]

Oh, yeah. You haven't gotten that on Gnomeo yet, have you?

[Megan]

No.

[David]

Do you ever get it on Zwift?

[Megan]

No. Maybe like, very, very, very low key.

[David]

Yeah, very low key. Okay.

[Megan]

Yeah. Okay.

[David]

Because you've been doing a lot of doubles recently. An interesting wrinkle in training theory that we're experimenting with. Yours, you're doing very high cadence, doubles up to 95 plus plus on those. And that feels like it would be a prime time to have one of those situations.

[Megan]

I actually think it's less of a prime. I think there's something about, like, the pressure of actually being seated at higher torque that's better for it.

[David]

Okay, okay. Okay.

[Megan]

That's always higher torque. Is higher torque the answer?

[David]

Oh, interesting.

[Megan]

Okay. Yeah, but it's actually, that is one interesting wrinkle is, you know, most pro riders outdoors ride at like 90, 95 plus cadence, and indoors, the pros are riding at such low cadence. Why do you think that is?

[David]

Hmm. I. I think it has to do with how torque works indoors versus outdoors. I don't know. There's probably an actual answer to this. Why am I speculating?

[Megan]

There's speculate.

[David]

Okay.

[Megan]

It's interesting.

[David]

All right. My speculation is, outdoors you do not have constant tension through the pedal stroke on flats, even if you switch into a really big gear. Whereas indoors, you switch into a very big gear. And it's like riding an uphill where because the machine is putting the tension in, it's giving you more tension throughout the pedal strokes. You're able to gather gather more power from it in the same way that outdoors riders are able to put out a little bit more power on ups than they are on flats. So essentially, indoors, you can make like you're always riding uphill. Thus you can switch into a really big gear. And if you grind a really big gear, it'll juice your power numbers more than is even reasonable. So, like, I think indoor power numbers are quote unquote fake. In my opinion. If someone's riding a very big gear at low cadence, like, you know, that's what I harness to put out big power number numbers. But I do not think it correlates with outdoor power because of that.

[Megan]

Agreed. I actually am curious too. I Think sometimes if you ride higher cadence, the average power is actually potentially lower because, as you know, you're going up and over on rollers. It's really easy for those watts to fall when you're at higher cadence compared to if you're mashing a big. You know, if you're, like, really mashing a big gear.

[David]

Yeah. You'd have to switch up into a much higher gear. So I don't know if that's true. I mean, basically, I'm just.

[Megan]

This is all speculation.

[David]

I'm also. I'm very skeptical of almost like a lot of indoor power numbers unless athletes are doing it in the saddle at relatively high cadence as it relates to outdoor numbers. But for runners, that doesn't really matter. Right. Like, we don't care about our raw numbers. We just want to get better.

[Megan]

We gotta get better at running.

[David]

And the question is, for runners, is high cadence preferable, even if it's lower power? And I. I think it probably is.

[Megan]

Because of how it neuromuscularly translates.

[David]

I think that's probably the case.

[Megan]

You know, I think for runners, mashing at, you know, 65 RPMs probably doesn't translate 75 even.

[David]

You know, it's a place where. Where I've gone both directions. In the old days, I always used to be high cadence as a. As a suggestion to athletes. Then I'm like, I'll just self select cadence because that's where the research is. And I think it just doesn't recruit the muscle fibers, and I don't think it's as beneficial. And so now I'm like, actually, high cadence is helpful. And I think one of the benefits of my injury has been forcing me to high cadence because, well, it helped.

[Megan]

Me find high cadence in that process too. So. Thank you.

[David]

And, you know, even in these first two rounds, I felt way more like myself coming off the bike than I used to usually would. So who knows? We're not experts on that at all. That's just speculation.

[Megan]

Well, thank you for speculating. You played the game.

[David]

I played the game.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Okay. I think we skipped the Parenthood question.

[Megan]

Let's do the Parenthood question. That's interesting.

[David]

Oh, at the end of. No, we got it.

[Megan]

Okay, let's rapid fire it.

[David]

Rapid fire. A Parenthood question.

[Megan]

We got two minutes.

[David]

Ugh. Yeah. I don't know, people.

[Megan]

I. It's an. It's like 98 of our lives.

[David]

Okay, Podcast listeners. You can blame Megan for this one here. This came in from Patreon, so we're respecting our listeners by Answering, answering it because I couldn't answer this like in a major way to them. One question. This might be more personal than you want to go into on the podcast, but I'd love to hear you and or Megan's perspective on parenthood. On today's Patreon episode, Megan said something like, quote, maybe we should have done announcing the Burrito League, which we did before we had kids, which really stuck with me. My wife and I are in our mid-30s and agreed to revisit the kids decision around 35. So that's right around the corner. I know you all have a lot of childcare support that allows you to keep training, coaching, et cetera, et cetera. I'm currently leaning no on kids, mostly because I'm very protective of my time and routines, which feels selfish. But I also recognize I might be opting out of what many people describe as the greatest joy of their lives.

[Megan]

Yeah, this is a tricky one. I do think kids to us, greatest joy, honestly, hands down for you, joy. I mean, I mean I think it's, it's a joy in the sense of joy that you get from running a marathon. I mean, it's a grind and it's grit and it's hard. But I also, also like, I love it so much in a fundamental way that I think it's that that translates to joy.

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Also there's some, there are objective, like.

[David]

What'S one of your favorite times of the day?

[Megan]

Training by myself with music or after.

[David]

The kids go to sleep. The point being, if something is joyful in the joy definition that, you know, maybe we're saying there. And one thing that I think intimidates this listener is you wouldn't say, my favorite time is the time I'm done doing that thing. And that can mean it's your favorite thing, like you talked about with running. And we, you know, I agree with that now. But I think it's important those semantics of the language because I think a lot of people get really intimidated because they're like, oh well, my joys are these things I'm going to have to let go of because of kids because they're, you know, consume every part of you. I think the better part is like purposeful and meaning driving, like, and elements.

[Megan]

Like there's moments that, like, you know, I'm playing with Leo and he just does something hilarious or so cute or he's like, you know, I love you, mama on this like deep level. And there are, are those moments of joy. But yes, on a one to one level, I probably do get more joy out on a run in the forest by myself.

[David]

You know what Leo said to me yesterday? What, dad, I'm gonna be talking about this in therapy.

[Megan]

Ollie probably said that we were like watching Instagram reels on your phone and it was just like a really fun moment of peace together. And we looked down and Ollie is like, drinking out of the dog bowl.

[David]

It was worth it for the laughs, though.

[Megan]

It was worth it for the laughs.

[David]

So to this listener specifically, like, you know, I. I empathize with this so much because I was a no after.

[Megan]

For first for a long time, until I was like, the only way you're gonna marry me, honey, is if we have kids.

[David]

Yeah. And I was also a no for the second kid.

[Megan]

How do you feel about the third?

[David]

We've talked about that. We are not getting into that on the podcast. It's too real. And I think the general idea of life is probably like. And just generally what correlates with, like, people's long term fulfillment is like, purpose and meaning. And, you know, I think purpose and meaning can encompass a lot of frivolous things. And really, if we dig down deep enough, maybe everything's frivolous. Right. Like, we're just a collection of atoms doing this. And that's why you need to be careful about pursuing that too much. But kids are this, like, feeling of being necessary. I read that today in a, like a post translated from Spanish, that it makes you necessary in a way that is so all consuming that it can be quite special. It's hard. It's hard to understand what being necessary feels like, especially for someone like me who doesn't feel necessary in my general life. Like, it's just, I. I'm like, very aware that it's dust in the wind. I don't matter much, you know, who gives a shit about me? That is truly like, you know, you're. You and your presence matter a lot. A lot. And that, you know, alongside all the beautiful parts of, like, seeing a human develop is really cool. But then that needs to be held hand in hand with the, you know, you're also going to be, you know, necessary when things are really negative in a way that almost everything else you can sign off off of in those moments. And so I would say it's less about joy and more about the feeling of like, being totally enveloped in just a being's like, existence that is so unique and maybe is like kind of the cornerstone of what love is at the end of the day.

[Megan]

Yeah. And you can't. I Mean, it's being there at 2am and your child is vomiting. But I've also never felt more like a mother than in that moment.

[David]

I've never felt more like moving to Idaho. You feel so much compassion. That's why it's so complicated.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

And if you make the decision not to have kids, it is the right one. And if you make the decision to have kids, it is the right one.

[Megan]

Well, I think make a choice and make it right, you know, and like make it right.

[David]

What do you mean?

[Megan]

I mean, that's within your powers. Yeah, that was the thing. But it's like it is within your powers to do that. And I think, like, you know, like, I've been happier than I've ever been since having kids. And maybe that's related to kids, maybe it's related to life. Maybe it's really related to getting older and being more vulnerable and being fine with it. But I do think those things are related for me. And I've been more stressed than I've been and I've had less time and my career has been. It's hard for me to grow my career in the same way that it was before kids, but I'm also happier.

[David]

But we also need to be realistic that there's a U shaped curve of happiness. That is also true in the literature generally. And the lower points on that curve of wellbeing or whatever, whatever generally correspond with when people do have kids, though it's not one to one. So, you know, it is complicated. And I think a lot of people sugarcoat it when they talk about it publicly.

[Megan]

That's true. And actually I remember being asked at one point, like, you know, how is the difference between one kid and two kids? And I think we answered this when Ollie was like three months old. And I will say that one plus one kids is not two. It's like eight. Yeah, yeah.

[David]

No, I.

[Megan]

Two kids has been exponential compared to.

[David]

One, but the learning curve was one one. Felt like a lot in the moment. Yeah, like a ton. A ton. And I'm sure it always changes. It constantly evolves. Right. And then things are so different for the person that gives birth and the, the mom in most situations, but just the primary caregiver. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's so. Well, primary caregiver is a little more complicated than what I was getting at. I was more trying to be accepting of our, of our trans friends out there listening. But, you know, so it really comes down to that, to, I think, long story short, if you're going to Go for it. You just go for it and be like, this is going to be the most silly, necessary adventure I've ever had.

[Megan]

Yeah, that's actually a great point, is, like, I feel like we've committed to that silliness and our love. Like, we have this moment often after we get both kids into the car, which feels like a victory and a feat by itself, where the kids are in the car alone, buckled in, and we just stand right outside that car and give each other a big old smooch. And it's one of those moments of just, like, also committing to, like, the silliness and love and being there for each other as two kids are strapped into the car.

[David]

Yeah, that's so hard. It's so hard, though, long story short, we. I don't know, I probably just bullshitted my way through that answer.

[Megan]

I thought it was. I mean, that's honest.

[David]

I want to be really accommodating to people, though, that, on one hand, don't have kids because I think life can be just as fulfilling, if not more for some people. But on the other hand, people that have kids and kind of hate it.

[Megan]

Oh, wait, like, also fun. Well, you don't need to be accommodating everyone.

[David]

Well, no, the point is, if someone does hate it, will they ever tell anybody? Probably not their partner and their therapist.

[Megan]

Do you hate it?

[David]

No. No. I. I mean, the thing is, like, I love it, but honestly, I would figure out a way I hope to love just about anything, and I love our kids, but I still don't love every kid. You know what I mean? I love the idea of children, but I wouldn't say I want to hang out with you instead of hanging out with my bros on espn. Right. I haven't watched NFL Countdown once in three years. I. I don't even know who's on it anymore.

[Megan]

But what can I do to give you some NFL Countdown time?

[David]

No, you do. I love it.

[Megan]

Right?

[David]

Like, I mean, what is this podcast so silly and crazy and everything, so. No, no. It's so fulfilling and amazing and necessary and, like, I would not trade it for the world, even though I was so skeptical at the beginning. But I worry if people hear this and they're like, that'll be my experience. When in reality, like, everything in life, like, doing an ultra. If you just. If you're not committing to finding the civil silliness and the weirdness and everything of it, and you're only expecting it to be great if you win, do not do it, because, you know it is Everything all at once. And that's why it's so amazing. And I feel like for most ultra runners, if you kind of love those pursuits, there might be some overlap with anything that's really hard, whether it's starting a business or going down that path. But also, you could just really like NFL Countdown.

[Megan]

And that's cool, too, also, I feel like.

[David]

Or career. I mean, that's the big thing.

[Megan]

Oh, yeah. But I think for me, being an athlete actually has been so helpful as being a mom, because there's something for me, me that's beating and growing in the background as it feels like Groundhog Day sometimes with. With kids.

[David]

The hemorrhoid.

[Megan]

Yeah, that. That's beating. That was Ollie. That's beaten and growing.

[David]

No, I mean, that's so beautiful.

[Megan]

And.

[David]

And you inspire me every day. Like, I feel like if my partner wasn't you, I'd be fucked in so many different ways. Like, it would be so terrible. And so, yeah. I mean, then you see he. And it's like, oh, he's just the best. And. And there. I mean, he's also the worst at times, but usually, I mean, there are moments where I'm like, that is literally the most beautiful, cool thing you could ever experience, you know, and also the worst. And I think that probably goes with every heightened life experience is, you know, anything that's solely good or joyful or whatever is like heroin. It comes with negatives that are beyond your comprehension because we're not made to live that way. And so, yeah, I know if you. Basically, if you're. If it feels like an adventure to you, do it, but make it, like the weirdest, strangest adventure you've ever been on and try to go into it with no expectations. And my God, do not read Momstagram.

[Megan]

Oh, it's the worst.

[David]

Do not have any. Like, do it your own way. Do not listen to me. Do not listen to anybody other than, like, you know, people that have been through it, and you try trust that are telling you ways to make your life easier.

[Megan]

Also, on a personal note, too, I'm kind of glad that we waited as long as we did to have kids. Like, I wanted to have kids when I was, like, 22, 23, or 24. I was like, let's go. I want kids so bad. And, you know, I think we had a bunch of experiences together in our relationship, and I'm grateful for that. Like, we've been together a long time, but I think that was helpful.

[David]

Yeah. And you're the best mom in the world. And so that you're the best dad.

[Megan]

I mean, yeah, it's so cool to, like, do this together.

[David]

I am in median, dad. No, I'm just kidding. I'm above median. I feel like it's like, driver.

[Megan]

You know, you're a heavy salter dad.

[David]

When they do surveys of drivers, everyone thinks they're like, 90th percentile driver. Well, maybe that was helpful. Should we leave it in?

[Megan]

We should leave it in.

[David]

Leave it in.

[Megan]

It was interesting at least.

[David]

And now let's go on to Listener Corner. Before we do that, anything to talk about.

[Megan]

Janji.

[David]

Janji.

[Megan]

We've been loving Janji. And they're coming out with a collab this week with Abigail Gil west, who I coach, who's an amazing artist, and she created art based off of the desert and black canyon type of scenery for Aravaipa. And so I'm excited for that.

[David]

So j a n j I.com check out this new collection that's coming out this week. And then for you, long bra is where it's at, right?

[Megan]

The long bra is so good. I wore that in the treadmill workout.

[David]

You're gonna sell so many long bras from that video.

[Megan]

Oh, my gosh. Also, you can put your phone. It's like, the only bra I wear now because I can run with my phone and not even know I have it on me.

[David]

Yeah. I mean, what a clutch thing to be able to do.

[Megan]

It's so clutch. Also, they just launched a new collection, and they have this cute sweatshirt in cerulean blue. It's always my favorite crown color. And it has wildflowers on it. And it's sold out. Oh, you gotta get on it quick.

[David]

I think, like, this is destiny, because the House of Cerulean Sea.

[Megan]

Oh, yeah.

[David]

It's on my Hope core list. I want to read it because it.

[Megan]

I've read it. It's a great book.

[David]

It's of that genre and that feel. And so I want to revisit it, but, you know, haven't yet. So maybe. Maybe it'll sell out to every clothing.

[Megan]

Color I want is cerulean.

[David]

Cerulean.

[Megan]

Is it? I don't know. Are we saying it right?

[David]

Who knows? It's kind of how I feel about everything on this podcast right now.

[Megan]

How are we doing it?

[David]

This podcast? Every podcast, I always leave these being like, well, probably stepped in on that one.

[Megan]

Cerulean. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[David]

Sounds good.

[Megan]

It's the good stuff.

[David]

Okay, on to Listener Corner. First, I actually want to start with the one I teased earlier from the picture PhD. I'm wrapping up my PhD. Don't want to say what it is. For the last period of time, I felt purposeless with visions of leaving science for industry. Half a year ago, I started listening to your podcast. Your passion for science and endurance sports were pivotal and changing my mind. I'm now planning to stay in academia and research to pursue scientific moonshots and then blah, blah, blah. Isn't that cool? I don't want to give any more details, so.

[Megan]

Well, I was just waiting because there was a cool sentence at the end about what they're getting into. I'm excited to say that, and I love it.

[David]

He's. It's.

[Megan]

Did you go to the, like, next level with confidentiality? And I respect it.

[David]

Yeah. Just, I want listeners to know that, like, I mean, they could tell us that, you know, they want their business promoted or something. We'll do that, but just always want it out there. And I think, like, maybe that gets back to the kids thing, too, is like, if you're really enthusiastic about something, like, a lot of life is kind of boring, like, parenting. As much as people describe these beautiful moments.

[Megan]

Oh, it's a lot like a PhD program boring. I thought of that as I was. As we were leading this question.

[David]

Science is boring. Boring, right? Like, I mean, it's. But it's also interesting, like, the nitty gritty of it.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Well, I mean, football is boring. Everything once you. Becomes mundane becomes boring. Running becomes boring. Anything you're doing every day does. And so, you know, the. The commitment that this person's having, like, it's so cool because, like, you know, the way we talk about science is hopefully the way we raise our kids or we try to through. Through that stuff. And it's so. I mean, maybe that's why anything's rewarding. I don't know. Like, what is it? Semi rad.

[Megan]

Oh, yeah.

[David]

Brendan Leonard.

[Megan]

Practice, maximum enthusiasm.

[David]

Yeah, that really resonated with me. It's like one of the only bumper stickers we've ever had. And to support Brendan, but also because I think it articulates how, like, a human that thinks about life and death and the fact that there is one end point how you can deal with that, which is inject as much energy into the system as you can through this, like, almost winking, understanding that it doesn't matter. So you might as well almost enjoy it to a silly amount if you can.

[Megan]

I think when I'm old and thinking about, like, injecting energy into the system, I'm just going to think about you on a random Sunday just outside the garage doors being like sock it. Hitting myself, hitting yourself where it hurts. Pushing back against the mundane quite literally.

[David]

Yeah. Okay, last one. I'm pursuing high level competitive chess. Very cool and decently high level running. And your guys discussion on brain health relative to carbs during and after running has made it so much easier to do both. A big bowl of rice post run and 80 or so carbs an hour on hard days. Make my brain work so much better for chess. Really love what you guys do.

[Megan]

That's actually a fascinating point. I thought a lot about test taking just because I've taken a lot of tests and I wish I could go back to be my higher carb self. We just didn't know its relevance. And running back when I was taking so many tests. I think I would've done better on the tests.

[David]

Yeah, I don't know. It'd be impossible for you to do better on tests. I think it would be Megan, you absolutely. I. I love that you're trying to. You've literally done a person can do on tests. We do not need you to take another test.

[Megan]

Oh love I missed taking tests.

[David]

You do not need your self evaluation after tests. Sorry.

[Megan]

For new listeners go out and scream into the universe after taking the mcat.

[David]

Yeah, Megan takes the. I drove her. It was like a few hours away.

[Megan]

Oh yeah.

[David]

You waited to register I assume.

[Megan]

No, I had to. It was. I joined. I walked onto the track team and my MCAT date was on track meet day so I had to change it and then we had to drive a few hours away.

[David]

I thought it was like other logistics. I just got pushed and so afterwards I don't forgot what I did during. But afterwards picked you up and you looked beautiful and radiant. You were a little sweaty.

[Megan]

I was very sweaty.

[David]

And you get back to the car and just start throwing non existent which.

[Megan]

Is like not anything I do and screaming because of I hate this test.

[David]

Of your dismay about how poorly you did. And then we stop on the way home and we scream like that movie Garden State.

[Megan]

It's actually one of my favorite movies memories. Maybe after I got the squirts back I'm like now it's my favorite memory. But just going out there into the woods and just being like. Like I feel like you know we.

[David]

Should have done what looked up at the sky and both with all of our might suck it.

[Megan]

I've never done that before and it's empowering.

[David]

So for us.

[Megan]

Did you just do it cleanly?

[David]

I did you got to do it softer. That's. That's my suggestion.

[Megan]

No, you got to go hard, and then, like. Like, decelerate, decelerate.

[David]

Like one of those SpaceX rockets that land, like, they, you know, exit.

[Megan]

SpaceX is a terrible example for this.

[David]

Well, I mean, sometimes you crash and burn on reentry, but usually you slow down, and that's the second at the bottom, and actually, it's way more satisfying. So you start real fast, and then at the bottom, do it real, real slow. Boom. Boom. And that's what you gotta do.

[Megan]

Is that gonna be our handshake the next time you win javelina, where you're just gonna be like, boom. Do it together. You're like John's shorts.

[David]

We love you all.

[Megan]

Suck it.