297. Long Runs Explained, The Training Shoe We Love, Black Canyon 100k Predictions, Shockwave Therapy, and Lindsey Vonn’s Courage!

Summary

Some Work, All Play – Episode 297

Date: February 10, 2026
Hosts: David Roche & Megan Roche, M.D.

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Episode Overview

This lively episode explores the evolving science and emotional journey of endurance training, with a central focus on long runs. David and Megan use their characteristic mix of enthusiasm, deep expertise, and laughter to examine optimal long run strategies, the benefits and risks of caffeine, the culture of endurance sports, and trending stories from the world of running, cycling, and the Winter Olympics. Along the way, they weave in listener questions, product recommendations, humorous anecdotes, and thoughtful commentary on the psychological aspects of athletic performance.

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Main Themes & Discussion Points

1. Openness, Humor, and Channeling “David Hoggins”

• The episode kicks off with the hosts sharing their recent comedic attempts on Instagram, inspired by David Goggins, blending “masculine real talk with vulnerability and sensitivity.”
• Memorable quote:

  “Real Talk. A lot of motherfuckers want to know why I didn’t get undressed in the locker room. And the answer is because I feel insecure about my body.”
  (David, 03:19)

• This sets the episode’s tone of authenticity, self-acceptance, and the ability to laugh at oneself.

2. Megan’s Training Grind: Navigating the Dark Corners

• Megan details recent intense treadmill sessions (6×10 minutes uphill), sharing the challenge of “functionally overreaching” and experiencing emotional lows.
• The hosts reflect on handling mental obstacles during hard efforts:
  • Intrusive thoughts are normal, not signs of weakness.
  • Key strategies: fueling adequately (carbs and caffeine), recognizing the psychological milestones, and taking pride in showing up.
• Memorable exchange:

  “Every so often in workouts…there’s this little corner of my brain that’s like, girl, stop.”
  (Megan, 09:11)
  “How do you deal with that?”
  (David, 09:19)

3. Caffeine Adventures: Muscle and Mind

• Discussion of accidental high caffeine intake during training (Megan taking Hyperlite with 100mg per serving; a listener ingesting 1000mg on a long run), and individual genetic variability in caffeine response.
• Recognizing the performance and enjoyment gains—but cautioning on health risks and reading labels.
• Notable:

  “Respect, though. This could be the new frontier. Yes. Be careful, though.”
  (Megan, 12:45)

4. David’s Cycling Breakthrough

• David describes an impromptu Zwift effort, setting lifetime power PRs. He highlights the benefits of unstructured endurance cross-training, and the value of experimenting with training modalities.
• The conversation touches on handling criticism and “weight doping” accusations in the online cycling community.
• Sharp quote:

  “No, comments don’t really bother me anymore. I think everything about last year just made it so I’m free. I’m a free bird out there.”
  (David, 18:03)

5. Long Runs – Deep Dive

(Starts at 21:55)

Evolving Training Philosophy

• The hosts break down their latest views on long runs, debunking myths and offering science-backed principles:
  • Two Main Purposes: Aerobic adaptations (built by chronic volume, not just long runs) and mechanical (muscular) resilience (especially from downhill/eccentric loading).
  • Risk: Longer-than-normal long runs are the top predictor of injury. Weekly volume increases, in contrast, often reduce injury risk (24:33).
  • Endurance Culture Trends: Ultramarathoners are returning to “big long runs,” but the hosts are cautious—mechanical stress and recovery cost may outweigh marginal gains.

Practical Principles for Long Runs

• Long Run as a Workout: Treat it with purpose—include quality (threshold, tempo, progression).

• Careful Use of Super-Long Runs: Only go over 16ish miles with specific intent, favoring mechanical benefit over endless exhaustion.

• Back-to-Backs: Useful for adaptation, but only when justified, and favored for mechanical, not aerobic, benefit.

• Fueling: Every long run is a fueling practice—never intentionally deplete for “fat adaptation.”

• Run Structure Suggestions:

  • Progression, surges, floats (intentional pacing variety).
  • Occasional key workouts like “4×2 mile at threshold+marathon” or “marathon/10k alternation.”

• Memorable summary:

  “Practicing depletion just makes you good at fading. So feeling good is where it’s at.”
  (David, 37:24)

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6. News & Case Studies from Endurance Sports

A. Lindsey Vonn’s Courage & Internet Critique (44:24)

• The hosts unpack the controversy over Lindsey Vonn racing the Olympics post-ACL tear, pushing back against online criticism with empathy:

  “Lindsey Vonn is Lindsey Vonn because she’s probably made a thousand similar decisions. That’s how she races—she goes for it.” (Megan, 46:08)

• Ethical lens: the importance of living in alignment with your own values, and coaches understanding athletes’ individual value systems.

B. Jesse Diggins’ Pain and Self-Acceptance (51:14)

• Discussion of Jesse Diggins’ NYT profile and the celebration (and danger) of extremes of endurance “pain.”
• Reflecting on personal growth through both injury and performance at the edge:

  “After going through all that [Western States], I have actually reached what I think is a place approximating true self-acceptance.”
  (David, 50:31)

C. Ski Jumpers, Doping, and Anatomical Loopholes (57:04)

• A bizarre story about purported hyaluronic acid injections in ski jumping for suit measurement “enhancements,” blending humor, physiology, and anti-doping ethics.

D. Jonas Abrahamsen & the Case for Finding Your Strong (61:46)

• Praise for pro cyclist Jonas Abrahamsen for success after gaining 20+kg and embracing a high-carb approach, as a blow to weight obsession in cycling and e-sports.
• Noted subtopic: Abrahamsen’s massive carb intake and the broader implications for fueling outside of training.

  “He was a traditional bike rider…realized he was restricting his body, and has become the ultimate powerhouse of the peloton.”
  (David, 62:02)

E. Shoe Reviews (67:20)

• In praise of the Adidas Evo SL (nostalgic Lunar Racer vibes, affordable, no plate), Norda 005, and the Nike Ultrafly 2, noting improvements and their suitability for long training miles or racing.

F. Quick Black Canyon 100k Predictions (70:36)

• A brisk preview of this Western States golden ticket ultra.
• Bold call: “Golden tickets are going to come from athletes that are all under the course record.” (Megan, 71:55)
• Announcements of key favorites (Anne Flower, Jen Lichter, Molly Seidel, Jim Walmsley—if racing—Francesco Puppi, Eli Hemming), while abstaining from picking SWAP athletes.

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7. Hot Study: Sex Before Sport

(78:32)

• Review of a sports science study examining masturbation 30 minutes prior to exercise, finding very modest benefits in exercise duration, HR, handgrip strength—though hosts emphasize the limited practical and ethical relevance.
• Memorable moment:

  “However, these results should not be misinterpreted as evidence of an ergogenic strategy…small magnitude and high inter-individual variability of effects…” (Study authors, 82:33)

• Playful consideration of research methodology and general lack of impact on performance.

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8. Listener Q&A: Shockwave Therapy for Plantar Fasciitis

(85:23)

• Weighing the benefits and risks between radial and focused shockwave; advocates starting with gentle approaches and personalizing treatment, but acknowledging high evidence for soft tissue injury benefit.

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9. Product Shout-outs

• The Feed: Notable deals on supplements (bicarb, Dream Shot, etc.); importance of label reading.
• Janji: Desert Running collab with Aravaipa (art by Abigail West); thermal jackets, gender-inclusive artistry, and positive community impact.
• Second Wind Nose Strips: Superior to Breathe Right strips for sleep and training.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

The Human Side of Performance

• Megan (09:11):
  “There’s this little corner of my brain that’s like, girl, stop.”
• David (03:58):
  “It’s channeling that idea of masculinity, but then putting it into a context of, like, openness and acceptance and sensitivity and more feminine energy, which is more of a powerful force in me.”

On Training Philosophy

• David (24:33):
  “Increasing long run distance relative to your longest run in the previous 30 days is the highest injury risk of training by far…But meanwhile, weekly volume has an inverse relationship.”
• Megan (28:33):
  “Muscular resilience that comes from downhills rather than whatever resilience comes from just beating your body up over a very, very long duration.”

On Changing the Sport

• David (62:02):
  “He’s the ultimate example of finding your strong.”
• Megan (62:28):
  “Cycling actually makes me sad because this [weight restriction] is such a problem…But athletes like Jonas Abrahamsen are pushing back against that.”

On Empathy and Values

• David (47:30):
  “Staying in alignment with your values is a really good way of thinking about these hard decisions when you’re unsure. And athletics is a great place to practice it.”
• Megan (50:31):
  “Being an athlete helps you live in alignment with your values because it does rip away some of the artifice.”

On Self-Acceptance and Growth

• David (50:31):
  “After going through all that…I have actually reached what I think is a place approximating true self-acceptance.”

Regarding Study on Sexual Activity Before Exercise

• Study Authors (82:33):
  “However, these results should not be misinterpreted as evidence of an ergogenic strategy…the psychological and ethical complexity…preclude any recommendation for deliberate pre-competition stimulation.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Channeling “David Hoggins” & Humor | 00:01-04:17| | Megan Training Grind & “Dark Corners” | 05:35-10:57| | Caffeine and Fueling | 10:52-14:14| | Zwift/Cycling Breakthrough & Culture | 14:23-18:12| | Long Runs Explained – Deep Dive | 21:55-40:47| | News: Lindsey Vonn, Jesse Diggins, Values | 44:24-54:55| | Doping Loopholes in Ski Jumping | 57:04-59:15| | The Jonas Abrahamsen Story & Carbohydrate Intake | 61:46-66:00| | Shoe Reviews (Adidas Evo SL, Nike Ultrafly 2, etc.) | 67:20-70:36| | Black Canyon 100k Predictions | 70:36-78:00| | Science: Sex Before Sport Study | 78:32-84:44| | Listener Q&A: Shockwave Therapy | 85:17-89:50| | Product Shout-outs (Feed, Janji, etc.) | 19:10, 90:08| | Listener Corner & Closing Reflections | 91:02-end |

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Tone & Style

True to “Some Work, All Play” tradition, this episode is fast-paced, irreverent, heartfelt, and rooted in both practical experience and scientific rigor. The hosts alternate between introspective confessions, enthusiasm for training science, passionate advocacy against diet culture, and vibrant, personal storytelling. Humor, honesty, and inclusivity are central—offering listeners not just training wisdom, but also psychological support and cultural critique.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the summer called Play Podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[B]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday, and I'm ready to get my filming on on this Tuesday.

[A]

Ready to get your filming on. What are you talking about?

[B]

Talking about filming you. Oh, I've done a lot of that in the last week. And you know what? It's fun.

[A]

You didn't know that you were unleashing a monster when you gave me permission to do one funny video a week.

[B]

It is so fun. I get, like, personal joy out of this. Except sometimes it's like, this week you asked me to film, I got a bike, flat tire and was heading out to run. You're like, film me now. And I'm like, I gotta go.

[A]

I gotta be honest, every time I ask you to film, it seems like we don't have time for it.

[B]

I'm pretty busy.

[A]

Yeah, you are.

[B]

But, you know, like, three seconds into that filming, I'm like, this is the right choice.

[A]

You did start laughing.

[B]

Okay, okay. But we also have to give context for what the filming looked like, because you're walking down the middle of our neighborhood and you have channeled. You call it the David Hoggins, which is amazing. And you're in the middle of our neighborhood. It's like broad daylight, and you're just like, real talk, real talk motherfuckers. I'm like, there's children. Don't do that. All the kids are at school, maybe.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

You're, like, screaming it.

[A]

Let's take a step back for people that might not be on Instagram, AKA make good life decisions. So the night before, we had date night, and while we were there, we saw Can't Hurt Me by David Goggins, displayed proudly. And, you know, I really like David Goggins, like, in the sense of his messages appeal to a part of my masculinity that doesn't come out very often, but. But when it does, I feel proud of myself. Like, right now, I have a hairy chest going on.

[B]

Yeah. What's happening? Actually, I feel like I'm sitting here right now and you are furrier than you have ever been. You got a beard, you got hair on your chest. Basically got hair everywhere.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I'm feeling it, right? Like, and then I see this book, and all of a sudden, in Barnes and Noble, I'm just channeling him and being like, real talk. A lot of motherfuckers want to know. And then just filling it in with other things.

[B]

And it was so funny.

[A]

Well, I knew it was good because it made you laugh so hard in Barnes and Noble.

[B]

I mean, within three seconds, as soon as you did Real Talk, I was like, your impression was so spot on.

[A]

Oh, it's not an impression. It's not an impression. It's channeling that idea of masculinity, but then putting it into a context of, like, openness and acceptance and sensitivity and more feminine energy, which is more of a powerful force in me. Right. Like, that's probably 85% of who I am. And I think I might have discovered my first character because, you know, Saturday Night Live was my favorite thing growing up, and every one of those actors auditions with characters, and I just never felt confident putting my characters in public. I had characters. I put them for you, but I never did them in public. And then this one we filmed put it in public, and it went moderately viral. So much so that when I first posted it, it went, you know, got like a thousand likes in a few minutes, and I just deleted that one.

[B]

You're like, panic.

[A]

Because, like, I was like, do people understand that this is a loving tribute and. And trying to reframe masculinity rather than anything critical? And I think eventually you gave me the courage to actually post it.

[B]

Well, now you're basically living in this character because about 125 times a day, you're just like, real talk. And it's about any. I mean, actually so many of them. I was like, 98% of them are hilarious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

2% of them. I'm like, okay, okay, okay, Bro, are.

[A]

You getting the ick right now?

[B]

No, I'm not, actually. Not yet.

[A]

Not yet.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe increase that to, like, 275 times a day. We might need to have a conversation, but for now, it's hilarious.

[A]

Okay. Can I pilot a few? Yeah, do it before the podcast. Okay, first one. Real Talk. A lot of motherfuckers want to know why I didn't get undressed in the locker room. And the answer is because I feel insecure about my body.

[B]

But actually, the wild thing about that is there's hints of, like, loving energy that everyone has this experience.

[A]

And, I mean, that's actually true to what I felt. So when I do squats, I lift more weight. If I listen to Everywhere by Michelle Branch.

[B]

Oh, my. That's a good one. That is so good. Actually. That song is a banger.

[A]

Okay, final one. Well, no, no, no.

[B]

Do it, do it.

[A]

Okay. I feel like I should save this one.

[B]

You just looked at me and you're like, I don't know if I should do it.

[A]

Why are you doing character in public? It's better when we can do edits. Okay, last one. In conclusion, the soft animal in my body wants to love what it loves.

[B]

That's Mary Oliver.

[A]

But the hard animal of my body wants to be down with the sickness. Ooh aah.

[B]

The ooh ah is the best one.

[A]

Let's get onto the other session.

[B]

But wait, where are we gonna film it this week? Where are you going yelling motherfuckers in public that I got to film? Pearl street, downtown Boulder, shirtless, shirtless on date night.

[A]

Date night. But I'm going to. I'm going to shave my chest before. Because that's my. Actually, that's maybe another good one. The good one to end it on is, yes, I shave my chest. And it is a type of gender affirming self care. Okay, let's get on to the episode. We're going to start by talking about Megan's training grind, then my biking breakthroughs. I'm very excited about that one. A big discussion of long runs. That's the main topic of the podcast this week. Then some news, including from the Winter Olympics, including Lindsey Vaughn's ACL tear and crash. We have some thoughts there. The amazing Jesse Diggins, who we love and is a podcast listener. Probably not during the Olympics. Rumors of sensitive injections into sensitive places. We'll. We'll discuss that. Predictions for The Black Canyon, 100K, a hilarious and interesting sexual activity study, and questions on shockwave, iron saturation coaching, heart rate recovery, and more.

[B]

We have so much good stuff this morning. I was preparing for the podcast and I was like, we have a great job. This is so fun. I was looking at science on sexual activity. I was actually on Instagram. We're going to talk about Jonas Abrahamson and his kind of wild carb intake. And I watched it maybe like 25 times to get the details of his workout. And then I realized you could just hit pause on a reel and I'm like, I'm such an Instagram noob. Yeah, gotta learn how to do better research.

[A]

Jonas Abrahamson from Unox cycling team is my favorite follow on social media right now, primarily because of his carb intake and actually some interesting theories outside of training there and how, you know, we've obviously pushed high carb fueling in training and racing. Um, but my guess is what we're seeing in his Instagram is that some of these principles being applied in new ways that I have personally not experimented with as a coach. So we'll get to that in a Minute. But first, I want to talk about your training grind, which is, Megan, you're crushing it six by 10 minutes on the uphill treadmill last week.

[B]

That was grundy.

[A]

And then you did 16 miles at altitude with 3,000ft of climbing and. And destroyed it. Your great adjusted pace was, like, monstrously fast. Um, it's really seems like things are clicking.

[B]

Yeah. And then I got to Sunday, and I was on the bike in Z1, and I was like, I think I might cry. My body feels destroyed. Yeah.

[A]

Would you text me? I think you actually texted me, David. I kind of want to cry right now. What do I do?

[B]

Every so often, I feel like when I get a little bit functionally overreached. I know I'm functionally overreached because there's just, like, this urge to want to cry for no reason. And I resisted. It got my two hours done in Z1, but, man, I was like, my body's feeling it.

[A]

I think what I did is I sent you the link to the sexual activity study.

[B]

Yeah. Then you sent me a long paragraph, and you're like, this is hilarious.

[A]

And you didn't even read it. But my thinking was that if you're really in the dumps, there might be a solution based on this study. But you got through it, and, you know, it's just really cool to see what you're doing. And that leads to a question from a listener that I think I want to hear the answer to. Because seeing you go through this is so inspiring to me. If she wants to. Could you ask Megan to talk more mentally about what she's doing when she's in the, quote, dark corners of her brain during a workout? This is what you mentioned on the 6 by 10 minutes on the uphill treadmill. I want to believe this is a trainable skill. Being able to stay in those dark corner corners during a hard workout is something I'm actively trying to get better at this year. But also, maybe Megan is just a super badass above and beyond us all with superpowers. Answer. Of course she is.

[B]

Oh, well, that means a ton. And I was in the dark corners of my brain in this workout. Okay, so 6 by 10 minutes. Way harder than 12 by 5 minutes on the treadmill. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you do accumulate more lactate, you know, when you're doing that. And I think maybe the biggest problem is you just went too hard.

[B]

I know. Well, I feel like also, too, I had YouTube for the 12 by 5 minutes, and that felt like kind of this, like, race day performance enhancing Energy.

[A]

Cody was filming.

[B]

Cody was filming. Whereas on the six by ten it was just like a normal school day morning. And I got down there and I was like, oh my goodness, I have six by 10 minutes. But I also did, I think like I felt pretty good on the first and second interval. And that gets sneaky because I realized I was hitting 5 minutes within the 10 minute effort faster than I was starting the 5 minutes on the 12x5. And I was like, fuck, what did I just do to myself?

[A]

Math sometimes isn't your strong suit for The Stanford educated MD, PhD when you're doing workouts.

[B]

It was feeling so vibey. I was hitting that paddle on the wahoo treadmill and I was like, I feel good. I also think I had some like heart rate suppression on the warmup and I was like, I'm so fit. Week over week adaptation, when in reality you're just tired. Yeah. And I think my heart rate was a little elevated on the YouTube filming day because I was talking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I was like, look at all these adaptations I've had. And yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And then you saw 45 minutes of intervals to go at that point. How do you get through it?

[B]

Yeah, I was in the dark corners of my brain. Like kind of similar to Sunday sometimes. There's this part of my brain, it's almost this like little intrusive thought. Like for instance, I've actually had like intrusive thoughts postpartum where just like something terrible pops up in your brain. You're just like, ah, what is this? In every so often in workouts, and I think particularly hard workouts where maybe I'm carrying some fatigue, there's this little corner of my brain that's like, girl, stop.

[A]

It's like, girl, drown yourself in the pee bowl.

[B]

Do not do that. It's a textbook intrusive thought. Yeah.

[A]

And how do you then deal with that? Because it's good to know that it's normal. Right. Like for me, I used to give in to stopping a lot and I've worked through it over time. Like, how do you make it happen?

[B]

Well, one carbs help a ton. Like, I feel like day is like Sunday where my brain is just like, why are we doing this? You are tired. It's like that's a time to actually increase carb intake and it kind of helps with some of that brain panic. But you know, I think I've experienced it enough now to be like, okay, this means that I'm truly doing something epic and I just have to be in this moment get to the next minute. And eventually I did that. And then I got to the last rep and I was like, we're here. Yeah, we did it.

[A]

And so proud of yourself.

[B]

And so proud of myself. And also, too, 6 by 10 is so epic that even getting to 3, I'm like, let's celebrate this. Because if I stop this year, that's a great workout.

[A]

Do you use mantras or anything?

[B]

I don't. You know, I think I'm. So most of the time, my brain is just kind of like, listening to music and not really having thoughts that mantras don't really work for me.

[A]

So your brain's not going real talk.

[B]

Motherfuckers might say. Motherfuckers might do that.

[A]

I have never, ever been softer, ever.

[B]

That's how I felt at 4 by 10.

[A]

Yeah, that's really. I mean, I think that's comforting for me because I've always thought you're just a freak. You know, you've always been able to push yourself in ways that I couldn't imagine. And I've been able to learn from you in, you know, I'm ways I'm proud of. And we're going to talk about Jesse Diggins later.

[B]

Credit. You've done that in the high carb context. And I wonder if those two are linked. Is that like, your brain needed that substrate to be like, okay, we're fine. We can keep going.

[A]

Yeah, Carbs. And then also caffeine.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. It helps a ton.

[A]

Yeah. I think caffeine makes a massive difference. And that might be one of the places where I've made the biggest intervention over time in the last couple years for mid exercise, after I figured out high carb is okay caffeine, I can dose it a lot more than I might have been comfortable to in the past. Um, and that's relevant for your story too, because for a few weeks, you had been taking Hyperlite caffeinated drink, accidentally thinking it didn't have any caffeine, and you were training great.

[B]

I was feeling so good. And most importantly, I was like, I'm joyful. It's like I was out in the bike, which is primarily where I was drinking it. And I was just like, man, I really like this. And then I realized that Hyperlite per serving has a hundred milligrams of caffeine.

[A]

The type you were using.

[B]

The type I was using. Which is a lot.

[A]

It is a lot.

[B]

That's a lot.

[A]

Do you think you're gonna titrate more caffeine in after that experience?

[B]

You know, I'm super sensitive to caffeine, but I might actually like. I feel like it was increasing my enjoyment of the workout, increasing how I felt later in the day. I felt like I was adapting.

[A]

You slept well, too.

[B]

I have been sleeping well, yeah.

[A]

Okay. And that final thing from a listener. Hi, Megan and David. I have a story relating to Megan's experience leveling up her training and the potential that it's impacted by unintentionally taking caffeine. Uh, we talked about this on Patreon. I'm using your marathon training plan for my second marathon, and it has been so great. Hoping to get a big pr. Coming up. On my best two long runs of the training block, I used science and sport nootropic gels.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

These are wild. I can't even take one. Having no idea each gel contains 200 milligrams of caffeine. I felt amazing during both runs. And only a week later did I realize I'd ingested about a thousand milligrams of caffeine for my 23 and 20 mile runs. first I felt silly for not realizing I was taking in that much caffeine, but reading your post made me feel better. Pros, they're just like us. Now that I know I can handle it and it leads to great results, I'm planning to use those chills on race day. Thanks for keeping it real.

[B]

Okay. 100 milligrams is different than a thousand milligrams. That's pretty wild.

[A]

Respect, though.

[B]

I respect it.

[A]

This could be the new frontier.

[B]

Yes. Be careful, though.

[A]

Be careful. Yeah.

[B]

There's a lot of medical issues that can happen with overdosing caffeine, for sure.

[A]

And it's a place where I just don't necessarily understand. And we need more studies. This is a place that studies could isolate variables really well.

[B]

Also genetics, huge variable. And there's actually kind of strong studies already looking at how the ergogenic aid of caffeine varies by genetics. And you can actually do, you know, via 23andMe or other companies actually understand whether you're a fast metabolizer, a slow metabolizer of caffeine, and that kind of matters.

[A]

And maybe it changes over time. You know, Leadville 2024, take a shot. Because I mentioned Leadville, I had a ridiculous amount of caffeine and we were open about that. Probably 1400 milligrams across the day because I found every time I took one, it made a huge difference in how I felt. But then this year at Leadville I might have taken just a few hundred milligrams of caffeine because I purposely did that partially because I wanted to be relaxed, but also I didn't feel like I needed it. So what changed in those times? Like, who knows? But an interesting place to probe for the future of exercise physiology because I'd be really curious to know, like, what the Olympians are doing before, you know, skiing, let's say, or anything. I bet it's very cool stuff.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I would need an entire, like, box of Hyperlite skiing to get down that mountain.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

Like, wish me luck. But I do think read the labels because for me, it's like I was just like, making Leo's lunch and just like, making my water bottles at the same time and dumping in some drink mix. And really, like, on Hyperlite, it's only on the back. And so just make sure you're reading your labels.

[A]

So the suggestion is to read the labels. The most advanced thing Swap Podcast has ever told you.

[B]

Just do it.

[A]

Okay. And then final thing is for me, last week, impromptu, on Thursday, I realized I'm kind of getting healthier now. Hopefully my foot's getting better. I should probably use this fitness to do a hard push on the bike. And so last second, I hopped into a little impromptu race up the Alpes Wift, which is like a 40ish minute climb, and, and set all of my power PRs.

[B]

Okay. 345 watts average up the ALP.

[A]

That is bonkers for 37ish minutes. Um, and it's just really cool because, you know, obviously injuries suck, but I've had a lot more time in the saddle. I've done a lot of interesting training wrinkles like this heat training and high cadence training. Um, and then I went back to low cadence for the effort itself. 65 cadence.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

But it's kind of cool to know in the moment that you set what will probably end up being your lifetime peak. Like, I hope I don't beat that because that would mean that I've been injured for a really, really long time. Um, and it took a lot, a lot of training to get here. But, yeah, it's just, you know, it's a opportunity to change approaches and try something new and, and maybe it'll lead to breakthroughs this year because I've never been able to do more than 330 on that effort. And so, you know, at 37, to be setting a personal record, you know, I'm pretty excited about it.

[B]

Well, to think about Your power numbers going up that much just from, you know, you've had four to five weeks here of cycling and not doing structured workouts, just kind of like, every so often on Zwift, trying to get a green jersey, sprinting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I sprint, and I, I do impromptu efforts, just not so structured. And that's one lesson for people cross training is, yes, when you're designing a training plan, you kind of need to write structured efforts, because otherwise it's kind of hard. But if you're out there with cross training, you can just kind of push in light ways without huge structure and get big benefits until you reach a very, very high level. Like, and most runners are not going to ever reach that level. Like, I'm nowhere close to it, even though I'm pretty strong.

[B]

I wonder what you could do if you actually stacked those workouts.

[A]

Yeah, no, I, I don't think I've got much. I mean, even then, it's. I'm not even in today's Z2, you know.

[B]

Well, I mean, you look at the pro cyclist numbers, I feel like your numbers have actually boggled people's minds in terms of what a runner could do. But also, at the same time, I feel like to have an elite understanding of what the pros in cycling are doing, you're like, well, there's guys that go four minutes faster up the altitude.

[A]

I'm actually curious about that. Like, so my bike numbers are, are solid, are good. I don't want to downplay that.

[B]

Um, oh, they're, I mean, for a runner, but maybe do you think they're the best of any runner out there?

[A]

I don't know about that, and we're not gonna talk about it. But imagine a cyclist and. Well, no, because that would include triathletes, and every triathlete is a better cyclist than I, and they're great runners, too. But imagine a cyclist going out and running, you know, six, 30 minutes per mile, which is really good, but not, like, insane. I wonder, do those cyclists get accusations on their stravas of, like, syringes and stuff? Because I've had to delete a few recently of people coming in and saying that. I'm like, guys, I, I, I'm okay at cycling, but I'm not good enough to have you doing comments like that.

[B]

It's the one time where I'm like, scoreboard. Like, scoreboard. But it's in reverse because I'm like, look at the guys going four minutes faster than David.

[A]

Like, David kind of sucks compared to Jonas Abrahamson.

[B]

I Mean, David's really good, but look at these cycling guys. And I feel like it's probably coming from people that just don't understand the pointy end of cycling and just how good those guys are. But does that bother you? Because you know you're getting those comments. I also saw someone comment something about your weight on there too, which blows my mind. And for me, you know, I got a weight doping accusation at four weeks postpartum, which to me was like actually super upsetting in the moment because yes, I'm heavier, but also, yes, I'm four weeks postpartum and it really took away my joy of Zwift and cycling. Have you felt that?

[A]

No.

[B]

No.

[A]

Comments don't really bother me anymore. I think everything about last year just made it so I'm free. I'm a free bird out there.

[B]

It's like I'm gonna delete them and block them.

[A]

I mean, if they're. I won't do that if they're like constructive in any sense, but if they're just mean, gone. Bye, Felicia.

[B]

Felicia. Every time I hit block now, which actually I almost never do, I'm just gonna be like, bye, Felicia.

[A]

So it's been an interesting training experiment and lots of thoughts on maybe why this is working from a cycling perspective. And we'll talk about those later, but I first need to make sure it translates to running. Before I do that, we're talking about long runs. But before we do that, a quick promo for the feed. Go to thefeed.com swap swap. And the most exciting thing right now is if you just put your in your email there, you get 40% off and then on top of that you get 25% cash back on supplements. And like we talk about supplements all the time here. That means things like first endurance, multi B, which is incredible Dream shot, which is fantastic for sleep and is doesn't have any habit forming substances in it. Give dream shot a try. Vanilla currenz fly carb. A new bicarb source.

[B]

Yeah, and they're crushing it actually. Did you see the highest dose is sold out on the feed.

[A]

I think that's our fault.

[B]

I know. I was like, oops, we talked about it on Patreon this week.

[A]

Yeah. And so all of these 25% cash back. So even if you've already used the like first time customer code, now's the time to go to the feed.com swap.

[B]

Okay. We were in the feed offices this week. It was the high performance team meeting. So many cool athletes on that team. It was really Fun to meet them. But as we were walking around the feed office, people just kept handing us products, and it was like our dream. I was like, give me all the different things to try.

[A]

Yeah, there was so much good stuff there. Like, it would be overwhelming actually, to work in that office.

[B]

Oh, I would come away with things, like, all the time because I get sent products for testing, and it's like, how can you not test it?

[A]

Was there anything you liked? I.

[B]

This is shocking. So last week I just kind of had this, like, insane amount of congestion. Like, wasn't actually sick, but for some reason I was just so congested. Maybe I was, like, little bit sick.

[A]

Yeah, I wasn't sick at all, but I was coughing a lot. Congested. Really congested. My resting heart rate was high. Went to the hospital a few times.

[B]

When you have kids, you're like, just a little bit of congestion, that's fine. But they gave me something called the Second Wind no strips. And why am I a no strip girl now?

[A]

Yeah, it looks like an iud.

[B]

It really does, actually. The. It's kind of intense, but, like, it works way better than the breathe right ones that you get at, like, just the pharmacy or grocery store. And now I'm a little afraid I can't sleep without them.

[A]

Okay, so we are no strip girlies, right? We've always talked about no strips.

[B]

Well, I wasn't, because I was like, honestly, these things are kind of ugly and I don't want to wear this.

[A]

And they don't stick on your nose that well when you get super sweaty.

[B]

Well, these ones do.

[A]

Yeah, the breathe rights, the basic bitch stuff that I use. Um, but Second Wind nose strips, they stick so well. So if you've tried nose strips and you are like, ah, it doesn't really work for me. Try these Second Wind nose strips of the feed. Did they actually sell them?

[B]

Yeah, they actually sell them. I went online and they have two different formulations. So one is just regular and the other is strong and. Oh, you gotta get the strong.

[A]

Gotta get the strong. And I am sure nose strips make a difference.

[B]

You know, I was skeptical for the longest time, and now it's like whenever I'm doing a Focus workout and trying to think about, like, heart rate and, you know, trying to stay in zones and things like that, I'm like, I need a nose strip.

[A]

I need an IUD on my nail patches.

[B]

Well, I mean, it probably also serves as an IUD too. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Birth control, if you're wearing.

[B]

Well, it's good because I'd be Kind of worried about that. But like, you, I feel like you're programmed to be like that sexy.

[A]

Oh, I see what you mean. Like, you'd be worried that you might be downplaying your own attractiveness.

[B]

Well, I'd be worried that, like, I'd give you the ick at night if.

[A]

I'm just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[B]

Before bed, just like, I got to put my nose strip on. But I feel like to you, that's the opposite of it.

[A]

Dude, I'll stick it up your nose. We might have to delete that.

[B]

Leave it in, Leave it in.

[A]

Okay. That's a rough thing to say after I just said sorry. I apologize.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Onto long runs. So we wanted to do a discussion this week of where our current thinking is in long runs because this has been an evolving part of training theory, partially brought to us likely by high carb. And I'm sure early in the podcast we had topics like this, but our thinking and our approach has changed a little bit. And because this is a staple of most weeks for athletes, we thought might as well do a big dump of all the things that we're thinking about right now.

[B]

And I think for most athletes, sometimes it is the crux of the week when you think about. When you think about how it's structured and you think about the opportunity to work in, you know, different things like threshold or tempo or progression within a long run. And we don't really talk about it on here enough.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting though. I think the reason we don't talk about it that much is it's way less important even now that we have high carb. And I guess the, the tee up of this is that so much of ultra training theory is pushing towards these.

[B]

Super duper long runs, which is weird because I feel like we were there early on in the days of ultra training. Like, look at Anne Transon, Ann Tracin, and she was famous for going out and just doing like 40, 45 mile long runs, as were a lot of people of that era. And I feel like that kind of fell away and now it's coming back interestingly, like, based off of kind of trends that I'm seeing on Strava or elite athlete training.

[A]

Yeah, it's so strange. Like you're not really seeing it in road and track in the same way. So maybe we're seeing a little bit of a driver that we need to be open to, but maybe we talk through it all and see if we can get there. So from a long run perspective, there are Two different things that you're looking for. So let's group it into two buckets to lead to this conclusion. The first one are involve aerobic adaptations. And so with aerobic adaptations, the question is, how much do long runs actually help? Um, and then number two are mechanical adaptations. And this is the big one, particularly related to muscular resilience. So within that framework, on one side you have the aerobic system and the aerobic system primarily responding to chronic stress. And the other side you have mechanical adaptations and those primarily responding to, you know, acute stresses. And that's where the difficulty comes in is because even though the aerobic system seems like it's being helped by long runs, it's much more being helped by how much volume you're stacking up over, you know, weeks and months.

[B]

And I think for both aerobic and mechanical adaptations, the question I ask is how quickly do those pathways saturate? So if we're talking about mechanical adaptations, it's like, okay, can you get those mechanical adaptations within an 18 mile steep run and how much are you gaining by adding additional mileage on top of that? And I ask those questions, and same with aerobic adaptations too, because the there's such a big injury risk within these long runs that it actually matters. It's like if we're going to be probing the margins, you know, how much are we increasing injury risk?

[A]

Yeah. And that's the most fascinating study on this topic that came out last year that found increasing long run distance relative to your longest run in the previous 30 days is the highest injury risk of training by far. And that there's a dose response curve. So if you're increasing it more and more, it matters. But meanwhile, weekly volume has an inverse relationship. So increasing weekly volume actually means athletes get injured less. And that's subs subject to a ton of confounding variables.

[B]

I was like, all I want to do is just be like confounders. I just did the like, oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

The Michael Jordan just pose. Yeah. But the problem with that just becomes, all right, well, if you're stacking up long runs, you're really also stacking up health risk. And are you doing it without that much potential benefit? And that's where we currently stand. But I think it's important to challenge our assumptions. Maybe what we're seeing in Altrads is a shift to we are underestimating something that can only happen after many hours. Like perhaps there's like a hormonal or epigenetic signal or something we aren't measuring that causes major changes at that point, because a good example is me. So at javelina, I got beat by Will Murray, and Will Murray did some very long, long runs. And yes, I did Leadville 10 weeks before, but nothing else like that, you know, and so we have to question our own biases.

[B]

Well, I was actually gonna use Will Murray, but for a different example is, yes, he did these very long, long runs, but he also did a lot of long cross training. And my question is, is like, can you get the benefit of doing, you know, it's probably safer to do. And it is safer to do something like an 18 mile long run and the next day to follow it up with, you know, four or five, six hour bike, as opposed to trying to do a 40 mile long run. And can you get similar benefits from that?

[A]

Yeah, maybe. Also, I don't like long runs enough to go that long.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God, can you imagine?

[A]

Do you like long runs?

[B]

I mean, I love long runs, but I also got to come back, like this weekend I did 16 and, you know, within 25, 30 minutes was back parenting. And it's like, I cannot imagine on a weekly basis going like 30 or 40 miles, then coming back and going to the carousel 30 minutes later.

[A]

Yeah, within a few minutes, absolutely wrecked. You had a toddler totally controlling your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Actually, I've learned that parenting a toddler is so easy. If you give in to everything they say immediately and have no rules. And then everything becomes so much easier.

[B]

And the requests get more and more ridiculous. It's like this bag of groceries that you just unpacked on the counter, take it all back, put it, pack it back up, bring it out into the car, drive it to the grocery store and bring it back the way I want.

[A]

Also, I've learned that screens, they're magical. How do parents not use any screens? There are parents out there that never, ever do tv.

[B]

Bless your souls. Probably not runners.

[A]

Less wrecked than we are. But I have so much respect whenever I hear that because I'm like, you are? You gave birth to a little Buddha. It's like, it's the most delightful time of my day is when it's like, oh, time to catch up on 30 minutes of paw patrol. So I can just lie here and be prone on the ground.

[B]

Horizontal parenting is amazing.

[A]

Yeah. So, you know, it is tricky with just where long run theory is going to. Um, and I think to bring all this together, a big place where I look is in getting downhill stimulus. So downhills and the eccentric contractions that come from downhills both for track runners, marathon runners and ultra runners, is the place where long run stress can be unique, where you're optimizing the mechanical end of the spectrum without necessarily requiring tons of distance. So like if you go out and do a 40 mile run or whatever, that's obviously a lot of stress. But what are you really doing? You're working, you're just getting exhausted. And I don't necessarily think you're causing like anomalous adaptations, but if you do extreme amount of vert over a much shorter run, you're causing all of the eccentric contractions that lead to the repeated bout effect and make the muscles more resilient in long races. So I think what we should think about with long runs is a supportive aerobic stimulus improving speed and power and then the muscular resilience that comes from downhills rather than whatever resilience comes from just beating your body up over a very, very long duration.

[B]

And I feel like that resilience of beating your body up actually carries a long tail in terms of recovery. And I think that can sometimes be challenging then heading into the next week of stacking a big week of training. And I also think some of that training theory, like we're talking about the idea that some of these big long runs seem to be coming back into fashion and I feel like that comes from time based long runs because we talked about this before. It's like, you know, you give an athlete like David four, five, six hour long run, you're going to be covering so much ground, but give that to an athlete that's going out and doing vert or perhaps not covering ground as quickly as are, and that's a totally different stimulus.

[A]

Yeah, five hour long runs, I, I just can't wrap my head around it in the context of training theory, like.

[B]

My question also the deep corners of my brain, the, the things that got activated in the 6 by 10 minute workout are like why, why would we do that?

[A]

And it's like maybe I'm missing something fundamental like I, I, that's the, our.

[B]

Minds are opened here.

[A]

Yeah, that's the place I keep coming back to is that maybe there's some like epigenetic approach or you know, protein signaling or something like that that we're not necessarily aware of that changes. Because I always with ultra training theory, look back to marathons, road marathons. If we're not seeing it in road marathons, I do not think it's a driver for fitness. It might be a driver for something else. But if it was a fitness driver, Maybe it's just no road marathoners have experimented with it, but coaching these world class marathoners, I'd so much rather give them 16 miles with a 4 by 2 mile workout within that or type of workout Jess McLean did this weekend, then have them go even 22 miles with a workout or not in it. Like I just don't think you'd be getting much benefit for these athletes. And if that's what happens at the pointy end of human physiology, why are we then at the less pointy end of human physiology seeing this become more common? And I think it might be a little bit of a herd mentality rather than an actual driver. But I think also 2026 is going to help determine that because we'll see what happens at Stark runs.

[B]

And I think the tricky thing is untangling what our long run focus is versus what is adding in a training race or key race that then serves as this super compensation long run. So you excelled both years at Leadville, but both years had. Last year you had Silver Rush into Leadville, this year you had the Western states 100k into Leadville. And those are all very long key days. And if your long runs are shorter on a weekly basis, I those training races then become more important to be like okay, my body has memory of doing this in the racing setting, but in racing setting it feels more productive.

[A]

Absolutely. So let's shoot through what are five principles here on long runs real fast. Uh, first one, in our frame framework, the long run is a quality workout. Like this is always stressful. And so if you're going to do a secondary workout, it should be within the long run rather than having the long run be like a third type of session. Unless you're the type of athlete that adapts. Really, really, really. So a good example of an athlete that adapts fast might be Christian Allen, who he'll do a workout one day, two days later do a threshold session and then two days later do a long, steady long run at like 5:45 or 5:30 minutes per mile pace. That is a rare case of an athlete that can absorb that. Otherwise it should be like workout and then long run, quality session beast.

[B]

Christian Allen also has four kids, right? Or three.

[A]

Some number of kids.

[B]

Some number that's more than two.

[A]

Yeah, some number that makes me want to get like just, I don't know, drown myself in the people.

[B]

Honestly, drown yourself in a whole bunch of no strip IUDs.

[A]

I have so much respect for anybody that has more than two kids now.

[B]

I hear it Gets easier after two. This is my pitch to you.

[A]

Wait, how is that possible?

[B]

Yeah, I know. I feel like it's at math at that point. It's like that math doesn't really seem to make sense.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like it's harder. And speaking of, you have an IUD now.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Are you comfortable saying that?

[B]

Yeah, I did. I got one on Thursday.

[A]

So we had been. No Iuding it, no birth controlling it.

[B]

We've been. I mean, we were.

[A]

Well, no, no, Megan, that doesn't count.

[B]

Every time you go to the doctor, they're like, what form of birth control do you use? And I'm like, we use the vibes. And they're just like, you're a scientist, aren't you? So I feel much better about that. But, no, I had, like, heavy bleeding. So I got a post an IUD postpartum at seven weeks and had heavy bleeding. Like, heavy, heavy, heavy bleeding to the point that it became a podcast joke for three months after and then got that out and now got one more than a year postpartum. And that's great. No issues.

[A]

No issues yet.

[B]

No. No issues at all.

[A]

What do you think might lead to why this one's working and that one didn't?

[B]

Um, I think it's just the timing. Like, I think I probably, for me, for whatever reason, just have this tendency to bleed more postpartum with an iud, and this time being more than a year removed, it's like, literally, like, no issues at all.

[A]

It's a good reminder for women out there or mental, you know, that are doing this process to think about, oh, what are the other options? It's not like, oh, I got a harmonial iud and now I have no other options if one didn't work. There are other choices that you could.

[B]

Have and to speak up for yourself, too. Like, you know, I've seen athletes go to doctors, and the doctors, like, convince them to keep the IUD in. And it's like, sometimes it's okay to DNF and iud. And fortunately, I had a doctor that was, like, super understanding of that. And it's like, you should advocate for yourself.

[A]

Unfortunately, we're not having a third kid.

[B]

Well, right now, like, maybe I'll have this in for, like, four years and then talk you into something.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

But back to long runs. I do think, though, you know, it is important to enter the long run because it is kind of like a primary workout, primary focus of the week. Feeling fresh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's where, like, you know, figuring out how to structure your week so that you're not carrying fatigue into the long run is helpful.

[A]

Yeah. And then number two, mix up the stimulus. So the baseline stimulus. And maybe the most important thing in our framework if you're gonna be doing shorter long runs, is that they are moderately intentional. Like zone two into zone three at times, maybe even a little bit of zone four on uphills, where you're actually going out and running with some purpose. Um, I call them easy mod long runs in the plans that you'll see on Patreon, where there's tons of plans if you are there. Um, but that alone will lead you most of the way, especially if your downhills are quick or quicker than race day, if you're going very long. Um, that is the crux of a key long run.

[B]

And I think key long runs for road marathoners have even more distinction and that I often have, you know, resupper. I'm also often switching between like, you know, marathon effort and half marathon effort, sometimes marathon effort and 10k effort to practice what it feels, you know, to turn the legs over and also to make sure that marathon efforts. Honest.

[A]

Yeah. So two examples of that from athletes that we coach. First is Jess McLean who this week did. I think it was a 16 or 18 miles, maybe 18. Um, but with four by two miles, with one mile float recovery, where the first mile of each interval was at threshold. Um, so like 1 hour ish effort and then the second mile was at marathon effort. And she did these. The last two mile interval was 4:59 into 5:15.

[B]

Bonkers.

[A]

And the whole run was 18 miles at 5:52. And it's like, okay. That's why athletes can run these freakish times in marathons nowadays is that these work, these are the key workouts. And then you can see how that would translate directly to a race like Boston. Um, and then Amanda Vestry is doing a really interesting session today. I can't wait to see how it went. Um, where it's like 105 minutes, which she'll probably cover 18ish miles to where every 20 minutes or every five minutes she's doing 90 seconds at marathon effort and floating in between. So just kind of an interesting structure where she lives in Florida.

[B]

Yeah, I love floats for some reason. Do you like floats a lot?

[A]

I mean, floats are great because if you can float, your aerobic system is, you know, really good. Like you can't float unless you have a strong aerobic system. So I love floats. And that should be another podcast topic at some point.

[B]

We should do a whole podcast on floating.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

Pull floating for that one.

[A]

And then tons of wrinkles. Um, so the other one that if, if you're a runner, that just keeps things a little bit more basic. Either do the intentional long run or a long run with some focus, tempo, 20 to 60 minutes, where you go out and run even more quality, like that is a good way to do it. And then occasionally just a very easy long run where you might do some hard efforts at the end, like 4 by 30 seconds or 6 by 30 seconds or 6 by a minute for fatigue resistance. And we've talked about that before.

[B]

I also love surges within long runs too. So, like every four to five minutes, doing one minute, 10k effort. And sometimes it's really nice just to like, like feel that gentle flow in the legs. And I find it chunks up the long run nicely.

[A]

Uh, three to only go over 16ish miles with a reason. 16ish, because, you know, ish, it's all. It's all depends how much time you're out there and other things. But if you're a less fast athlete, you could probably get by with never going over 10 miles or 12 miles if you're doing challenging routes and making them quality. Because all of the adaptations, and let's say, I would say 95% of them just come from chronic training, not these acute long run stimuli, but I do.

[B]

Think stacking them, you know, you could get away with, yes, 10 or 12 miles. But if you're training for a 50k or a hundred k mile race, make sure you have the appropriate long runs within there.

[A]

That's with a reason.

[B]

That's with a reason. And I'm like, you know, racing is a reason.

[A]

Yeah. Number four, always feel. Well, to have fatigue resistance, you must practice fatigue resistance. So practicing depletion just makes you good at fading. Um, so feeling good is where it's at. And that isn't just if you're doing quality long runs. Every long run is a chance to fuel. Never let that drop by the wayside.

[B]

It's amazing how much of a difference that makes. And for me, I'm like 80 grams of carbs minimum now at this point. And when I'm doing higher efforts, often up to like 1:20.

[A]

Yeah. It's why athletes are able to perform. And maybe the place where we see this most, like, extremely, is with thin cycling because those athletes have started fueling almost all of their long efforts really, really high. I mean, as we're gonna talk about Jonas Abrahamson, it's Way beyond running. And as a result, we're seeing performances at the end of races that we've never comprehended before. And I don't think that's fueling on the day necessarily like fueling on race day. I think that's fueling and training causing the actual nervous system pathways to remap over time. Like so. For me, high carb fueling made a huge difference, but it really took a year to see it in races. And I think it's because my brain itself had to rewire to make this be able to translate into the extreme fatigue resistance under wild amounts of stress at the end of events.

[B]

And I also think you just train better. And so the training stacks and you become fitter and stronger. You apply that to racing.

[A]

And then final one, back to back long runs are only for the mechanical stimulus. And so if you're going back to back long, have a reason for it as well. Um, and you're just focusing on making your legs, you know, get some breakdown stimulus. So vert would be your friend or more intentional running. But don't do them thinking that you have to to go long. It doesn't really work that way.

[B]

And this is an area of training theory that I feel like I've deviated away from a little bit is, you know, moving away from some of the, like, stacked back to back and being like, okay, let's stack some intensity within that primary long run day, and then maybe, you know, have a secondary long run day depending upon the athlete that's more of just like their medium, like everyday run. So something like, you know, 18 with progression last hour.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then 12 the next day kind of stead. Sometimes with strides.

[A]

Yeah. And sometimes I've even gone up to. For some of the athletes racing Black Canyon, first day will be 25. So this is as long as we really go in training, maybe do this once or twice. Um, and then the second day will be 15 steady, where you get out on rolling terrain. And this is a place where, all right, there might be some mechanism by which running at like, kind of your ultra race paces on tired legs has a purpose that you don't want to practice being uneconomical too much. So it's all done in moderation. And basically long runs are a place where I think we're really still figuring it out because there are a lot of competing theories. And whenever there's competition in ultras, I'm always like, well, show me the road marathoners, what they're doing, and then we'll figure it out.

[B]

How do you feel about training camps? Cause that's an area that I feel like I see a lot of ultra, ultra athletes now. It's like, okay, we have the ability to invest in this race and races now. It's like you really have to focus on a race and know the course and like, be familiar with what you're doing. How do you feel about like stacked three day training camps?

[A]

Oh, amazing. For the same reason training races would be amazing that all of this, you know, when you're getting a specific stimulus falls by the wayside and you just go for it. Right. And so a training camp would be amazing.

[B]

Yeah. And I think training camps are great. And athletes that can't get to the course, it's like, okay, let's have. You know, some weekends are kind of like mini training camp weekends. I just think it's not all the time.

[A]

Absolutely. You want to get to news?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Let's do it. Before we do that quick promo for patreon, go to patreon.com swaps tons of training plans there. We're about to release two more.

[B]

Two more training plans.

[A]

One I'm really excited about for myself is the long term base building plan where it, the plan is designed so that you can do the whole thing and then after you finish it, restart at week five and then repeat the six weeks to end the plan indefinitely with a bonus week that you insert every four to six weeks. That provides just a little bit of a different stimulus. And I'm really excited about that because often athletes will have like, like, oh, well, I'm not gonna do a race till October. What do I do in the meantime? It's like, okay, here's your option.

[B]

I like that. It's a great idea.

[A]

It's like a choose your own adventure novel kind of.

[B]

I know, I kind of, oh, that's fun. It's a good way to think about it. And I'm working on a postpartum return to run plan and was sitting at the table doing it this weekend and all of a sudden you're like, oh, Megan, it's from like delivery, right? Like what? I was starting it at six weeks of just like the classic return to run. You're like, megan, it's gonna be more powerful. It's from delivery.

[A]

I'm excited that you did it too.

[B]

Yeah, I kind of. I like had to take a whole hour to wrap my brain around that idea.

[A]

But we're nervous about it.

[B]

No, you know, I put a lot of different, like, caveats and notes in there. But, you know, I don't think any plan exists that early because people are afraid to be like, okay, here are some ideas of how to, like, you know, get back to walking, get back to cross training, get back to, like, moving your body in ways that you enjoy. And it's kind of nice to try something different.

[A]

I'm so excited about it. I'm also so excited I don't have to mansplain postpartum training anymore.

[B]

Edit it heavily.

[A]

I want to edit it heavily, but I'll help you out. I mean, do you want me to?

[B]

I do.

[A]

Okay. Okay. And you're making me sound like the bad guy. Not.

[B]

Not heavily, but okay.

[A]

And then reading a message from a listener here. Hi, David and Megan. I recently started your lower volume plan to build endurance and speed. And I'm already seeing a lot of improvement on today's run. My fastest long run postpartum. I kept thinking over and over, I can't believe how comfortable this pace feels. I'm wondering if you have any general guidance around adapting your other plans for a low volume runner beyond sticking to the low ends of the distance is. I'm excited to keep progressing. Thank you. So, long story short, the all the plans have lower volume options and some of them extremely low volume options, where we're talking like, you know, five to 10 miles at the very low end, but then going up to 15 or 25. So options for all levels. It's not just pros, but if you're, you know, going for pro level results, there are pro level plans too.

[B]

Same goes for postpartum. I'm designing it for, you know, this is what we give a pro athlete coming back postpartum, but also lower volume runners, too, so that like, you know, a Saturday run might look like, like 3 to 10 miles or 3 to 12 miles.

[A]

Would the postpartum plan work for someone that has just like a tummy, Like a tummy issues?

[B]

Megan, My core is a little sore.

[A]

My core is so sore right now.

[B]

We were driving down the canyon this weekend, and you're like, megan, if I went through pregnancy, I don't think I'd ever come back.

[A]

I'd never come back. What is wrong with me? I went back for my first run and my foot wasn't that bad, but my core is so rough. I don't know what's going on. I don't think it's a hernia.

[B]

You thought you had a hernia, though, a couple months ago.

[A]

I did. And maybe.

[B]

And you're, like, pretty convinced you're like, when I sneeze and I cough, you're like, I can feel this bulge.

[A]

But now when I sneeze and cough, there's no pain in particular. Maybe a little bit. But, like, there's this diffuse pain below my belly button. And it really is only a problem when I run. And I don't know, Megan, if I gave birth, I would need, like, a belly button down amputation.

[B]

It's impossible. What are you gonna do about it?

[A]

Oh, my God, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What should I do?

[B]

Well, one thing. You should get it checked out.

[A]

I'm kind of, oh, fuck that.

[B]

You're like, I'm not going to a doctor.

[A]

If it requires seeing a doctor, I'm out. I'll get an MRI two months from now.

[B]

Be like, look at this hernia that's been hanging out for the last two months.

[A]

Okay, well, let's get on to news. Very first one here is Lindsey Vaughn at the Olympics.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

So she tore ACL a week and a half ago, 10 days ago, something like that, in a. In a training run, in a crash, and then very publicly said she was still going to compete in the Olympics. And it's remarkable. And then, unfortunately, during her Olympic run, crashed on one of the first gates and I believe broke some bones and needed surgery in that same leg.

[B]

Did you watch the crash? So it happened 13 seconds into the run. And seeing this crash, I'm like, how does anyone go skiing and, like, not be in their head all the time? I cannot under. I can. I literally cannot fathom skiing at the speeds that they're doing and, like, wrapping my brain around it. Because this was like, her body was like. I mean, it was actually. It's jarring talking about it, but just like, launched through the air.

[A]

I mean, they're going 90ish miles an hour at times, right?

[B]

Yeah, it's nuts. Yeah.

[A]

No, I did not watch it.

[B]

Yeah, it's slippery snow.

[A]

I couldn't. But I heard that she hooked her arm in the gate. And what's interesting to me is that so much of the commentary online since has been critical of her.

[B]

It's disgusting.

[A]

It's disgusting. And I think it just shows a difference of people that have ever honestly pushed themselves in anything in life and those that might not have and those that are good, you know, critics versus participants in anything. And not just athletics. This also applies to, like, business people or honestly, even, like. I mean, basically, you can broaden this out in a big way. It's like. So she tears her ACL she's 41 and long term health is everything. But she's understands that she can still go out there and has a shot.

[B]

And she's also earned that too. She's come back while, I mean, it's been actually kind of mind blowing to watch her progression to come back and win World Cups at this age after periods of time off of sport with the injuries that, that she sustained.

[A]

Yeah. So what are your feelings on it?

[B]

It's kind of wild to see the online commentary. Is it surprising? No, because online commentary about everything, it's literally about anything anyone does anything. And there's going to be, you know, pushback to the pushback to the pushback to the pushback. And I agree with you. Like, you know, I think any elite athlete would be like, oh, she a hundred percent made the right decision. And the thing is, Lindsey Von is Lindsey Vaughn because she's probably made a thousand similar decisions in her career. And this is how she races, she goes for it. And she wouldn't be Lindsey Vaughn without stepping up and taking those risks and trying things that like people don't think are possible. And so I'm like, you know, if you critique that, go get out there on those ski slopes and try skiing 90 miles down the hill.

[A]

I think people are saying they would never do that at the beginning. And I saw author Brad Stalberg, who, you know, just had a book come out, it's amazing, check him out. But he said it's essentially about living in alignment with your values. So he didn't comment on Lindsey Vonn specifically, probably because he doesn't know her. But obviously this is in a context of Lindsey Von living with her within alignment of her values. And I love that phrase and I'm going to think about it a lot because my guess is the people critiquing her would also be living within the alignment of their values if they didn't go out and, you know, no shade there, that's fine. It's a totally valid decision to make. But I don't know, just staying in alignment with your values is a really good way of thinking about these hard decisions when you're unsure. And athletics is a great place to practice it.

[B]

And I think it's important to think about that as a coach too and anyone within leadership because it's like, you know, you're going to be working with people that like, ultimately don't take your advice or like, you know, maybe aren't necessarily seeing, you know, what you're seeing in terms of like the long term trajectory of your future. But I think when you take a step back and think about their values, it's like, oh, you can potentially see, like, where those decision making things are coming from.

[A]

Yeah. Empathy, the same framework.

[B]

But I think it's important as a coach or leader or whatever you're doing to understand the values of the people you're working, working with. Like, you know, I'm sure Lindsey Vaughn's coaches are like, oh, we don't know about this, but it's Lindsey Vaughn. She's gonna do what Lindsey Vaughn does and we're gonna uplift that, you know?

[A]

Yeah. It reminds me of a text message I sent to Ana Gibson this morning, which was just a little passing reminder that you are Ana because you are Anna. Just a reminder that, like, you know, this is a spotlight's on her right now as she gets ready to do the mixed relay and the sprint for Schemo. And she still actually has so much time. Oh, it's a lot of time. Yeah.

[B]

It has to be really hard to, like, go through the opening ceremonies and then be like, great, I'm going to race in two and a half weeks.

[A]

But also comforting because you can go back and train.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can go to escape to the mountains.

[A]

She's 8 by 5 minutes threshold on skis. And it's like once you do that, everything kind of falls away. Kind of like you said about the uphill treadmill, by the end, any artifice is gone. You know, any concerns, any opening ceremony stuff is gone. And it's just about, oh, I'm here doing the thing.

[B]

Well, I was actually carrying some life stress this week when I did the 6 by 10, and by the time I got to the fifth interval, even though my brain was screaming at me to stop, all of that had washed away. And training is. Training is so great for that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think being an athlete helps you live in alignment with your values because it does rip away some of the artifice. So, like, the concern is that over time, whatever your baseline value system is can get eroded away. Or maybe erosion is the wrong thing. It'd be like a cre. I think erosion, I think accreting. So, like, things on top of it, Right? Yeah, I think that's.

[B]

That was. I'm just mind blown over here. I'm like, you just used accreting on a podcast. Real talk.

[A]

Sometimes I use geological terms and I don't know exactly what they mean.

[B]

This is one of the best moments.

[A]

But the point being that, like, you know, a Lot just accumulates, like debris accumulates. And you don't even really see your values under there anymore. And athletics just rips it away.

[B]

Oh, and it's constantly testing it at the same time too.

[A]

And like I think about my year and that gets into the Jesse Diggins, which is the next point point. The article on her in the New York Times, which was fantastic. Is that okay? At Western States, I got ripped down in a way that tore off a lot of that. And then, you know what I saw after? Yes, there was shame, but the reflection I had last night is that after going through all that, I have actually reached what I think is a place approximating true self acceptance. Like true self acceptance. Not saying it, not having it as a value, but actually feeling the value in my soul. And I mean that could have only happened if I did these things of like putting myself out there in ways that were really uncomfortable and kind of sucked, you know. And so that's where the magic of sports come in for anybody, I think probably is just that it wipes away.

[B]

Some of the debris and hot take. I actually sometimes think that's easier in the moments of injury or challenge or setback because you're like, all I want to do is get back to doing the thing. And I think it changes the brain in some ways, but I do think it becomes more complicated. Like for you, that point of I feel like I've reached this self acceptance that is ever present, I think is going to be challenged. As you get ready to race Western States and Leadville and these big races ahead, it's like there's that mission creep that comes in and constantly challenges values as you're placed at more and more competitive levels.

[A]

Maybe, maybe. No, I think I'm just totally in alignment now. Perfect alignment. Megan.

[B]

You're like, I'm not going to be accreted.

[A]

I'm just like two of those synchronized swimmers.

[B]

You and your soul.

[A]

Jesse Diggins. This article is so, so good. It. The quote that everyone's sharing it from. It is all it is is pain. Um, it kind of reminds me actually of like, was it Truett Haynes or somebody like that? They. They talk about this. It's just pain all the time. Interesting framework in relation to your 6 by 10 workout where you gather some strength over the intrusive thoughts as you go by just accepting it. So I like that quote.

[B]

I think accepting it and also being like, well, I've also worked hard to get to this point of pain. Like, I worked hard and now I'm here and this Pain actually is a celebration.

[A]

And so Jesse Diggins, one of the all time goats in cross country skiing, has this origin story that's really interesting from high school. Then 30 seconds later, it was, oh, I'm not going to die. Diggins recalls, after passing a number of athletes in the race, it was a huge light bulb. This whole next level had been there this whole time, and I can access it if I'm willing to push hard. All it is is pain. It is not permanent damage. I want to know what my true potential is. I never want to wonder, what if I had just been a little tougher mentally?

[B]

And then fast Forward to the 2022 Olympics, and Jesse had been in bed with food poisoning the night before, like two days, 48 hours before the race. And she came back, like, willed her body to be on the start line and ultimately went through that race in this kind of like. She described the last part of the race as, like, systems failure of, like, her vision starting to go cloudy, of, like, losing her senses, losing, like, the faculties of her and crossing the finish line and essentially face planting into the ground and just being carried off to go get warm and just almost like losing herself within the effort.

[A]

Yeah. And the question is, as I read that, for me, part of me was inspired, but then part of me, and this is the part that has been in a boot for a while is like, hmm, I think I actually started to explore that space a little bit. It. And I don't know if I want to stay there anymore.

[B]

Well, I think Jesse probably says the same thing.

[A]

That's true. Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I think anyone that's been to the true depths of potential, it's like, do we want to do this anymore?

[A]

Yeah. And then the question is, where does that barrier lie? And so getting back to last year after western states, I was like, oh, well, my goal at Leadville is to obliterate myself. And then at Leadville, I had a pretty pleasant experience, all things considered.

[B]

Well, I think that actually is important though, is, is Jessie at the 2022 Winter Olympics coming off food poisoning empties her body and soul. Do what she does. But I think sometimes athletes come to me and they're like, oh, I'm not finishing in enough pain. But I think sometimes the truly magical moments, like your Leadville, don't actually involve that much pain.

[A]

And I think that's a good thing because then at javelina, it was the hardest thing in my life and messed up my foot. I'm still coming back from that.

[B]

Messed up your core. You're like a pregnant.

[A]

Whatever happened, man over here. Yeah. Whatever happened after that is rough. And it's like, like, you know, and there's talk in the article about this too, of, like, this thing that is very healthy, can reach a point where pain is the thing that is kind of like celebrated almost. And not to say Jesse's doing that, but, like, there are people that celebrate pain in this, that it becomes less healthy, both emotionally and physically. And I think I might have actually reached there, which I'm proud of. But I don't know if I want to go fully back. I think in retrospect, I Probably should have DNF'd have Lena, do you.

[B]

Would you be okay with that now?

[A]

No. Well, now I would, I think now knowing what happened after. But the.

[B]

Well, it's hard because you don't have the counter. Counterfactual.

[A]

You don't know what happens after.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so it's complicated. And I always want to uplift that because, you know, we're like, oh, athletics, wipe away the debris on one hand. But on the other hand, it's like there's this process that, like, you can, if you have these realizations of Jesse digging, reach places in your brain that.

[B]

Are just actually kind of scary and reach places. For me, it's like also reaching places in my body that are kind of scary. So, like, I ripped my body up at quad dipsy and then, you know, four days later have pericarditis and it's like, what did I do to myself? And I think the one thing that I struggle with is I'm going to be toeing the line hopefully this year. You know, you never know, especially when, you know, you deal with the hard issues that I've had of longer and longer races where the odds. It's like, you know, had you showed up at javelina and it was a 50k your probably. And it's an imperfect day, but you're not asking so much of your body is what happens when you show up at a longer day and you realize it's an imperfect day, but you're still asking your body to go 100k, a hundred miles, and there's this huge recovery cost. That's so hard.

[A]

The answer is bicarb.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

Yeah, bicarb.

[B]

But you had bicarb.

[A]

It helps you. Yeah, but it turns an imperfect day into like, oh, it's kind of perfect. You can, like, kind of see some blur. Perfect in there.

[B]

But that's tricky.

[A]

And for you, it's Gnomeo Yeah, I.

[B]

Actually felt really good.

[A]

That's actually. I think Gnomeo is going to prevent your heart stuff in the future. I know that's crazy.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

I know that's crazy. I know it's wrong.

[B]

You'd be like, I'm gonna go to a Stanford cardiologist and be like, I'm gonna come at pericarditis broccoli.

[A]

Obviously, you should do a million other things. In fact, we got one very important constructive medicine question or not question. It was a statement last week.

[B]

You did not tell me about this.

[A]

Both to me.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Which in the discussion of probiotics, I was talking about the connections with mental health, perhaps the gut brain connection. And that, you know, mentioned in passing that if someone has depression, you know, this is something to think about in conjunction with everything else. I hope I said the second part. But they were like, this isn't a method of treating depression. I'm like, I know. And it's like, I'm sorry if anybody thought that. I really did not mean it. And it's valid. It's valid. And I responded with a ton of love and said, I'm so sorry.

[B]

Were you like, real talk Motherfuckers want to know if I go to therapy.

[A]

And I do sometimes, but I really have trouble making the time.

[B]

Sometimes I go to cbd, but not that kind of cbd.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Is that okay?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. People can Google it to figure out what Megan's referencing there. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Let's go on to the next one. This one is a really fun story. So we got sent this by, like, 25 people, which is always an interesting reflection on what our lane is. So there's a story with the World Anti Doping association that was considering that ski jumpers might be doing illicit injections. And so I'll read from this. Ski jumpers undergo a full body scan to ensure their skin tight suits do not have extra material, which would give them more lift as they soar through the air. The crotch of a ski jumper suit is allowed to run to the bottom of an athlete's genitals, meaning an enlarged penis would give them potentially performance enhancing material. The build report said that the newspaper had discovered insider talk of athletes injecting hyaluronic acid into their penis to alter their suit measurements to the point of securing a larger, more aerodynamic suit for the duration of the session.

[B]

That is bonkers.

[A]

I am obsessed with this story.

[B]

That is okay. But did you also see that WADA, right now, they actually haven't really had to think about as Many doping practices within the world of ski jumping. But this is a quote. WADA had no indication the alleged practices were taking place. And stress WADA only intervenes when a method of cheating falls within the definition of doping. Like, this sounds exactly like doping to me.

[A]

I mean, hyaluronic acid is that. It's not, right? That's. It's not.

[B]

It's not. I mean, it's not like within the sport of running. But in this method of, you know, creating a functionally larger, like, genital to get a better suit would definitely be doping, in my opinion.

[A]

I mean, this is a clear example of we just need standardization. We shouldn't be rewarding people because they just have bigger penises at baseline.

[B]

Even.

[A]

Even independent of injections.

[B]

Like, you're like, we need a way to.

[A]

What's getting. NASCAR are so. In nascar, they have restrictor plates. All the cards are kind of the same.

[B]

But that's what they're doing here. They just forgot to adjust for penis size.

[A]

But that's what we.

[B]

But that's what we need to do is adjust for penis size.

[A]

Yeah. But I guess it becomes complicated too.

[B]

But also it does become complicated.

[A]

What about women? Like, you know, that's basically just inject.

[B]

This in your clitoris. I'm gonna feel real good.

[A]

So we have some experiments to take home. We have a take home homework here.

[B]

Don't do this at home.

[A]

We're gonna get some criticism for that one. Yeah. So fun story. I was thinking, like, I mean, what if you were just like a little bit aroused if you're like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You should really get like, you should not go into this cold.

[A]

If you had a little chunkster. Yeah, you going cold for sure. Sure. What would you be thinking about? What would you be thinking about if you needed to think about something to get a little bit bigger suit? Sorry.

[B]

Maybe you walking down Pearl street shirtless, just being like real talk for the moment. Until I film 25 of those. What would you be thinking of?

[A]

I'd also be thinking of myself saying real talk.

[B]

I arouse me.

[A]

David Hawkins arouses me. That is true.

[B]

True.

[A]

How many do you think you've heard for real in the last little bit?

[B]

I mean, to be real, like 875. And some of them I've heard, like maybe 12 different times of different iterations.

[A]

You've heard me workshopping them?

[B]

I've heard you workshop them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you waking up at 2am and just being like real talk?

[A]

In my senior year, I cried during the Notebook, but I acted like I was sleeping.

[B]

Did you really?

[A]

Yeah. That's an actual story from psychology class, actually.

[B]

You watched the Notebook in psychology class?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Respect it. Now that I understand my parenting feelings on screen.

[B]

It's how you would also teach, actually. I feel like substitute teachers would do that. They're like, today we're just watching a movie.

[A]

Absolute best job in the world. That would be me. And then talk about it. I. I think that would be in a fantastic way. To teach, like, students is to show challenging movies, necessarily. It shouldn't be the Notebook probably, though.

[B]

Yeah. Why were you watching that? In psychology class?

[A]

You had interesting discussions, right?

[B]

Like, what do you mean?

[A]

It's just so romantic. But you have interesting discussions about just about any piece of art and something like, the Notebook is art. And I think those challenging discussions are where the growth compass. And I think often school, at least where I grew up, didn't have challenging discussions until you got to college. And I think that should be fostered so much more, because making people comfortable with different interpretations of art is also, I think, a path toward empathy.

[B]

But now we have the flipped learning classroom, which is the bane of my existence. They're gonna be like, go home and watch the Notebook and do this three hours worth of homework and then come back in class and talk about it.

[A]

Do we still do that?

[B]

I don't know, but we did. Oh, God. That started in, like, the end of Med School, PhD for me, and I'm like, why are we doing this?

[A]

Does my emotional availability give you a chance? Next up is Jonas Abrahamson, rider for UNOX Mobility and Cycling, maybe one of the strongest riders in the peloton, and his story needs to be told from the rooftops, like it needs to be shouted. Um, he was a traditional bike rider trying to be a good climber, and very, very good. Um, but he realized he was restricting his body, and he went on to gain over 20kg, so 44 plus pounds, and has become the ultimate powerhouse of the entire peloton. Uh, he won a stage in the Tour de France last year. Um, and he's so far beyond what he would've been had he been controlling his body. He's the ultimate example of finding your strong.

[B]

And this is so important within the world of cycling. Cycling actually makes me sad because this is such a problem. And I feel like this problem, as we talk about zwift and esports, is morphing even more into zwift and esports because athletes are having to weigh themselves before every race. And it's like, you know, to think about putting. It's almost like, like, you know, Swift racing is becoming like wrestling at the top level in terms of these, like, weigh ins before competition. And I think it' creating this problem. Whereas athletes like Jonas Abrahamson are coming in and pushing back against that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I, I did the other week get that weight comment and.

[B]

Someone was like, oh, you know, I.

[A]

Didn'T even read it. You just told me about it and I just, I deleted it before reading it because it would be triggering.

[B]

Yeah, it was something like, oh, if you don't own a scale, how can you actually race on Zwift?

[A]

Yeah, no, and I, I validate that. Like, if I was doing competitive racing in any sense. And yeah, I mean, I've been. The hard part is I've been injured from running and my bike physiology of finding my strong is definitely heavier. And so how much heavier? I don't want to weigh myself because of stories like this. It's like, I understand that being the most powerful version of myself as a runner is important, and I do have some context for what I weigh from when I used to weigh myself over a decade ago, but now I don't. And so that is complicated. Like, probably. So in other words, the comment. Did, did. You know, I have thought about it since and I haven't done a race since. I've done f. I mean, I guess the Zwift, the Alta Zwift was a race, but it wasn't competitive. Like, there was no one in it other than me. Like, I was, you know, eight minutes ahead of people. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I don't.

[B]

Know, but that stuff hurts. I mean, it's not fun.

[A]

And it's just a hard conversation in general.

[B]

It's a really hard conversation because, yes, weight is a variable, even more so on Zwift than it is really in running or any other endurance sport. And so it's tricky, but I feel like it's just becoming of a part.

[A]

A very unhealthy conversation coming back to Jonas Abrahamson. Like, he's an example of why you throw your scale away and why we say find your strong. Because he sounded strong and he is pushing things to a new level. But he had an Instagram reel that we have to mention. So in this reel, he talks about a training day where he did a very hard double session, but he had 225 grams of carbs for breakfast, 300 plus grams of carbs for lunch, and 1.8 kilograms of carbs across the day.

[B]

That is a lot of carbs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And where he's doing this primarily. I was kind of impressive, actually. Going to like eating as a job. Like, these were just like big bowls of porridge and eggs. It wasn't like he was just out there. I guess his dinner was like cheeseburgers. But, like, breakfast and lunch didn't look particularly fun.

[A]

Oh, they looked very fun to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A big bowl of porridge, Megan. Yeah. Shit, that gives me a chunkster. See, you do like it. You do like it still.

[B]

I do. I like the original ones. I just heard the workshopped ones too.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. You have. You have six more uses of chunkster before I get the.

[A]

Um. But the session was really hard. You know, it was a hard LT1 session in the morning, actually two sessions.

[B]

So we did 6 by 20 minutes LT1 in the morning. And then this is where I was like pausing the Instagram reel that I learned you could do after, like 20 times watching it. He did 4 by 6 minutes lt2. 6 by 3 minutes vo2, 8 by 1 minute vo2.

[A]

Huge.

[B]

So that's like six hours, you know, across the two sessions of biking throughout.

[A]

The day, including, what is that, 18 plus. So 26 minutes of VO2. Yeah. That's insane. Um, yeah, he's reaching new levels. But I think what's fascinating about it for me, from a pure theory perspective, is he's also probing, well, what happens if you apply high carb fueling outside of trading. And I don't recommend that to anybody yet because I think there probably comes with risks. It probably requires really high output.

[B]

I mean, he's doing stuff that's bonkers, though.

[A]

Yeah. His LT1 power is higher than my hardest. His power, like, he's just a monster. But I wouldn't be surprised if in the next few years we are seeing similar performance revolutions not from within exercise fueling, but from outside exercise fueling. That only works in, like, athletes that are pushing really, really hard and doing hard training. But it's a place that I personally haven't probed that much. You know, I don't think about it that much. I always say just, you know, eat naturally, things like that. I know some people often, and I'll be very curious to see what happens.

[B]

I'm curious to see where this is going. Did you also see the bike drills that he was doing?

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

It was like a day in the life. And so he was like, biking around cones indoors. And it actually made me really happy that, like, riders at the Tour have to work for these bike handling skills every once in a while. You'll see like a rider, like hop a curb or something. So effortless. And you're like, how do they do that?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. The. I can't even stay on my bike if I'm riding alone.

[B]

Can you like lift your arms up off the handlebars? Nope, nope, nope, nope.

[A]

And sometimes I just get hit by Subarus. So I think I'm gonna ride indoors a lot more now.

[B]

Actually, you did say that, that you're probably gonna ride indoors unless you're riding with me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's just not worth it. I mean, I think my panic attack last year, I had too many unresolved feelings from the accident. So I need to work through that before I spend really long rides outside.

[B]

And it makes sense too, from a safety perspective. Like, I wonder how many lives Zwift has saved because people are having more fun indoors.

[A]

Yeah. Who knows? Okay, glass, last little thing here before we talk About Black Canyon 100k very quickly is I want to shout out a training shoe that I've heard so much about, but I never ran in it myself, which is the Adidas Evo sl. What's really interesting about these shoes is they're so simple. It has a one piece of light strike Pro foam, the same foam that's in like the Aggravik Speed Ultra and all these other shoes I really like with no plate. And they are very inexpensive. You can currently find them from like 100 to $120. And they're responsive, relatively supportive, but not too supportive. I think it's kind of the perfect training shoe. Like if this was 2012, it would be the shoe that takes over the world in racing.

[B]

Actually, it's funny because Lunar Racer, which is like the shoe Nike shoe of 2012, which was at this point, like we get dunked on by all the other shoes on the market. It kind of reminds me of a much faster version of a Lunar racer.

[A]

Yeah. I want to get you these. I think you'd like them. Yeah, I mean, it's working so well with for you to be in the endorphin speed, but this shoe I just really enjoyed wearing. It's been fun. Like it's one of those shoes that I put on and it brings me joy.

[B]

Okay. You've been wearing it at nine minute pace on the uphill tremo True. Have you worn it outside on a longer run yet? Like how far do you think it could go in terms of like, would you take it on like a 16 mile back roads?

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's more supportive than the endorphin speed. Yeah, for sure. I think you don't really realize how like under supportive that is for you because you've developed a really good form in it. So I wanted to moderately good form. Oh, your form looks beautiful now. So I wanted to shout it out because if you're looking for a new road trainer, you just think it's like, I don't like any of my road shoes. This is might be a really good option of a shoe that doesn't have a plate and is quite comfortable. And this is also getting me off Adidas shit list, apparently.

[B]

I was gonna say Adidas. Look at you.

[A]

Not Terex.

[B]

Not Terex though. Yeah. Terex is still coming for you.

[A]

And the shoe was sent by a podcast listener. Listener who actually enjoyed. Who works Adidas, who enjoyed all of my shitting on. So we'll see. We also have the Nike Ultrafly 2 and the Norda 005 in for testing, but not enough data yet to talk about them. I'm currently wearing the Norda. Megan's wearing the Nike Ultrafly.

[B]

Look how bright. The only thing we're going to comment on right now is the look of the shoe. Yeah, such a female shoe reviewer thing. And I'm going to own it with pride. That is some bright orange.

[A]

Bright orange.

[B]

Basically, anytime I wear these shoes, which has been to the doctor's office, around the block, to the grocery store, someone is like, look at those shoes. And it's because they are so bright.

[A]

Yeah, it looks like. What was coming out of you when you wore that? Iud. Just kidding. They look great. We actually wore them together when we went to the feed and it looked like we were doing some weird team presentation.

[B]

Yeah, I kind of liked it though.

[A]

No, I like it. I like when shoes make themselves hyper distinctive because we will be able to tell those shoes on every live stream from a distance. Kind of like what Nike's done with all of their super shoes, like make them distinctive so people know that they're in them. So it'll be interesting. I mean, they lost a little bit of their mass, their weight from, you know, the first time.

[B]

And most importantly, I feel like the weight is more distributed in a better way. So like the Ultrafly ones to me were so. Especially after not wearing them for a hot second. So bottom heavy and these don't have like. It feels like the weight is much better distributed.

[A]

Meanwhile, the Norda 005s are light. Are so light. They're 8.5 ounces in my size, whereas all of the other light shoes are like 9.5. Um, so I think that that's really intriguing, but I haven't been able to run enough to test them yet.

[B]

I'm excited for your, like, input on that.

[A]

Lots of tests to come. All right, so very quickly we're gonna talk about Black Canyon 100k, but that's not our podcast lane at this point. There's like 45 trail podcasts that are probably gonna do full previews and predictions. So what should we talk about?

[B]

Give me your prediction. That's what I wanna know. No swap. We have a lot of swap athletes racing, so no swap athletes allowed in the prediction.

[A]

I think that's a complicating factor.

[B]

That is actually. Maybe we shouldn't do that.

[A]

No, we have to. We have to. Because. Because otherwise I would just only say swap athletes.

[B]

No, but I mean, maybe we shouldn't even just pick race predictions. Oh, no, we should.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no. Maybe we're saying like first non swap.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Hans knows how I feel about Hans, so I think it's going to be a fascinating race. So the black can 100k golden ticket to western states. What I was hoping to be able to do, but I'm not gonna do it. Um, I actually had a Strava joke that I deleted that was ready to race Black Canyon 100K. And then two people thought it was serious and I was like, oh, man, I told you.

[B]

Told me you workshop that on me. I was like, people are going to think you're serious.

[A]

I did it yesterday morning and then changed it. Um, but it's going to be cool ish conditions. It's not going to be hot. And this was a very fast course. I think we might end up seeing another one of those, you know, seismic leaps forward, especially on, I mean, honestly, both male and female sides.

[B]

Here's my hot take, actually. I think golden tickets are going to come from athletes that are all under the course record.

[A]

Record. I agree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On the women's side, I think that might be a little tougher. Yeah, I think the women's record set by a non binary athlete, Riley Brady, is like a little bit farther ahead, quite fast of everything historically. So it would take. That would take if. If that's true. On the women's side, I think it's gonna be true. That would be a seismic leap forward. That is insane.

[B]

I mean, but look at the competitive starting line, the women's races, it's always competitive. The women's race is more competitive than western states because Aravaipa, like, and it's Amazing. They let in every competitive female athlete late, like to be able to race, which is great. Like we want a kind of playing field like that in the US and this race, far more competitive than western states on the women's front.

[A]

If that happens, I will shit a brick. I so happy, I'm so happy. You know, that's. We keep talking about that year after year after year, but I think everything is starting to hit and this race, given that it's not going to be hot, is going to be so fast so quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if we see 5, 30 minutes per mile early in the race. Like that type of pace, pace for the men's race and 6 minutes per mile for the women's race. And what happens from there? Who knows? You know, it's a test of different types of athletes, different training theory. And so within that framework, let's give one athlete on each side, um, starting with you, women's side, who's your athlete?

[B]

And flower.

[A]

And flower. Not splat athlete.

[B]

Um, she just got the 50 mile course record or 50 mile world record at Tunnel Hill. So fast. Um, Leadville winner. And she's just, she's fast and fierce on trails and you know, has stacked these great race results after great race.

[A]

So it's also my pick. But that's boring. I just gimme one more for Anne. So hard.

[B]

She is just, she's a good human too.

[A]

Great human. Just signed with Hoka. Um, I think that this is going to be the time when everyone realizes that Ann isn't just, you know, one of the best. She's all time goat. Um, my little pick here is Jen Lichter coming from shorter distance trail racing, dominant in those settings, dominant in really hard races.

[B]

Another great human too. Yeah.

[A]

Um, and so I think that's interesting.

[B]

And then she's had some stomach issues though in longer races.

[A]

So that's tricky. You know, you're so fast that if you figure that out, who knows. And then the story everybody's talking about is Molly Seidel, the Olympic bronze medalist, has trained so well for this also.

[B]

I think really cool too. She's worn it on her sleeve and owned it. And I think she said something. I saw a quote from her that she's like, this is not a consolation prize for me. Like I think sometimes road athletes come into trails and are like, this is not serious. We're just gonna hang out and see what I'm capable of. And she's like, I'm going all in and doing it and I respect that. So much. She didn't need to say that. Yeah. And I think, like, that to me is gritty and indicative of someone that's going to do quite well.

[A]

I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, we just see that she does things that seem incomprehensible. And you. We haven't really had an experiment like this where Olympic bronze medalist in the marathon. Different. It is different.

[B]

Oh, that's totally different.

[A]

And everyone understands that. Like, it's just such a cool thing to see in our sport that's still within her prime. Am doing this. Like, I am giddy about it and I'm rooting so hard for it. Whether it's this race or another one, she's clearly going to do that thing. Um, and if it was this one, it would be so cool because that would also mean Western states. Oh, that would be so fun. Okay, on the men's side, who's your 1 pick?

[B]

Jim. And I laugh because he's not registered, but he's been training so much on course with Francesco Pupi. And have you heard rumors? You always hear rumors about these things, but I just feel like he's going to like, he's going to pull a gym. Like Jim, I feel like loves kind of of like the antics of this stuff, like showing up to Black Canyon in like, a full ninja suit one year in. I feel like he's going to register the night before and race and win.

[A]

Okay, well, you know, that would be very interesting and great. I don't think we have any evidence outside of Jim.

[B]

Francesco Poopy. Francesco. Um, so, I mean, his running economy is great. Uh, he's like, his Canyon's performance, I think, was one of the performances of the year last year. And I think this course might suit him even better. And it seems like his training has been going well. And then my second pick is Eli. Um, I think Eli. This is the year of Eli figuring out distance.

[A]

Eli Heming. Eli was mine.

[B]

So sorry, I just took three picks in one. Yeah.

[A]

Picking anybody over Francesco Poopy seems crazy, but Eli is just so good and, you know, eventually he'll nail it. And when he does, he's also an aggressive racer. So, like, he's going to give himself the opportunity.

[B]

Do you think being an aggressive racer for Eli favors having strong competition or not? Because he's going to go with, you know, I think Francesco and if Jim is in this are going to go out hot, like, hot, hot, hot. And I think Eli might be better served if they weren't there. Do you agree?

[A]

I Want to be clear that if Jim's there, I'm saying Jim. Yeah. No matter what happens in the world, you pick Jim Waltz. I don't care what the event is or what even what the sport is.

[B]

You're like ski racing.

[A]

But yeah, I mean it's. Yeah.

[B]

Because it's so competitive on the men's front that I think some athletes are going to get out over their skis and some athletes are better at handling that than others.

[A]

You know, I think every athlete's gonna be out over their skis. I think you have, you kind of.

[B]

Have to be an ultras.

[A]

Yeah. And nowadays.

[B]

But I mean, sometimes you're like so far out over here somersaulting.

[A]

I don't think it's anything to do with competition. I think his rougher races in the past have just always had something that happens which you know is normal. Alternating is like heat or gi or whatever. But like, you know, seeing firsthand how good he is, he is so good. And I mean, he owned my soul last year, that Jake Alta 50k to the point that like it destroyed my ankle, destroyed my life. Understanding that, it's just like, this is good. If you're a fan of this sport and you've never live streamed a race on Saturday morning, go to YouTube right in black Canyon and just watch this. It has really good coverage. You can understand what's going on. It's not that long in the big scheme of things. You can just check in and out. But I think this will be one of those, like turning points for the sport and paying attention while it's happening will be really interesting because I really, really assume we're going to be looking at a Pre Black Canyon 2026 and a post Black Canyon 2026 framework. Even though that seems bonkers. Right. I think we're ready for the next seismic leap forward because there's all these things we've talked about that are starting to accumulate across the entire board. Like, you know, the bicarb, the obviously all the training stuff, but then especially.

[B]

The fueling stuff, which is scary in some ways. Like this gets back to the Jesse Diggins discussion of to win Black Canyon right now you're gonna have to go so deep.

[A]

Well, no, you can just be so fit. I mean, so fit, so fit.

[B]

That's the. I mean it is. I get to the idea of like sometimes these performances, like 100k is different.

[A]

Than a hundred miles. I know that's crazy to say because it's so far, but it is different. You can do things In a hundred miles. You know, it just goes. It goes a little stranger at human physiology. So let's pay attention there. Okay. I feel like we have to do the sexual activity study, but should we save that for next week?

[B]

We talked about it.

[A]

It.

[B]

Oh, and we might need more than 10, 20 minutes. Yeah.

[A]

Should we just do Q and A instead? This is really fun.

[B]

The study is great.

[A]

Yeah. We put it down here because it's like.

[B]

Well, it's also like a no study. But the methodology was interesting.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think they had. For masturbation. Right. That wasn't what. Okay, let's talk about it.

[B]

You're like, we teased it already.

[A]

Here it is. I don't think there was any teasing involved. I think there. It's called sexual activity before exercise influences psychological response and sports performance and high level trained man.

[B]

Actually it's physiological response.

[A]

Oh yeah. Also men athletes, not male athletes. Um, so it took 21 well trained male athletes and had them do a randomized crossover design. You can imagine what they're randomizing here and what they're crossing over.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The randomization was to a 15 minute audio visual stimulus in which athletes masturbated during that time or athletes watched a neutral 15 minute documentary film. And the 15 minute an audiovisual toy stimulus. You can imagine what that is.

[A]

Documentary on Jim Wamsig.

[B]

Yep. Your Leadville documentary. And they did this 30 minute, 30 minutes before exercise at 9am Yes.

[A]

I resisted a chunkster joke.

[B]

I was like, I was waiting.

[A]

You knew it was coming.

[B]

I mean this might be like your fifth one. You're going to run out of it by this end of this podcast.

[A]

And so the general idea here is that the groups that was, I guess we can just use the words was masturbating.

[B]

You're just miming, which might be worse than using the word.

[A]

And I was using both hands, which.

[B]

Is really strange on different sides of my face.

[A]

They had 3.2% longer exercise duration, higher heart rate, more hand grip strength.

[B]

Why didn't they do lower leg strength? I feel like one group was primed and one group wasn't very warm.

[A]

Higher testosterone and cortisol levels. So some fun facts on the study and Design and protocol. First, 9am Start time. Get an early start to this session.

[B]

Yeah, I appreciate that. That feels like a good time.

[A]

I know, right? Like everyone talks about this stuff and it's like assumed to be late. Kind of like we've always said, if you're a stand up comedian, you're performing at 11pm sometimes in New York City. What about the stand up comedians that perform at 9am?

[B]

Those are our people.

[A]

Those are our people. Similarly, what about the people that masturbate at 9am?

[B]

This is an optimal window. I feel like these are the people that like, like you know, Saturday morning childcare. That's where it's at. But you know, so they took these 21 well trained male athletes. But did you see they also had the exclusion criteria and five athletes didn't meet the inclusion criteria of they had sexual activity the night before.

[A]

Oh, cool. Yeah, I mean probably not being paid enough by the psychological study too.

[B]

They're like, this was a really good night, have a study tomorrow. I gotta keep it going.

[A]

They were honest about it and, and I also would love to know what the neutral documentary film was. That'd be really fun.

[B]

I think just about like birds and giraffes.

[A]

I don't know, Megan, we're so curious.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like. Yeah, you would be aroused from watching birds.

[A]

Remember the Listers documentary about birds? Okay everyone, we've talked about this before. If you're new, make sure you watch listers on YouTube. It is so, so good in ways that we just can't even describe. But that's chunkster city.

[B]

That's your last use. You're done, you're done. No, I mean that was a, that was a good document.

[A]

I'm not done. I have 15 minutes to get done. There's a lot of pressure on these athletes.

[B]

Well, they did you see, they texted. So they're in a room alone and then they texted the, the study. Like the people running the study that they were, you know, completed when they were. Yeah, that's how they, that's how they measured it.

[A]

They should have like a microwave go off like a ding. Okay. And then the quote, that is the money quote from this. However, these results should not be misinterpreted as evidence of an ergogenic strategy. The small magnitude and high inter individual variability of effects combined with the psychological and ethical complexity of sexual behavior preclude any recommendation for deliberate pre competition stimulation. Moreover, ethical and privacy considerations limit the feasibility of systematically prescribing or manipulating sexual activity in applied sports contexts.

[B]

Okay, that was well written.

[A]

I'm glad that they included this.

[B]

That was. I feel like this might have been. Reviewer number two was like, yo, we needed a moral and ethical statement in here, please.

[A]

Yeah, but why did they that than do the study at all?

[B]

Well, I actually was wondering about that. It's like you know, imagining the people just vision boarding this study and just sitting on a table and be like, we're gonna have people masturbate.

[A]

Yeah. And it's really hard to vision board when your vision goes blurry and it makes you a little blind. You know that, that like stereotype or idea that the old wives tale that if you masturbate you'll go blind.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, so that was the joke.

[B]

I just wanted a Catholic school thing.

[A]

Perhaps that. That world.

[B]

That world.

[A]

Yeah, that world also. That you'll grow like hair on your hands.

[B]

I think thing hair on your hands.

[A]

Yeah. It's weird, but there. But maybe to be serious, there is a lot of societal stigma that builds up around, you know, sexual activity in every single, you know, way. Like, and one of the ways that is is that historically you've been told that sexual activity is bad for performance as an athlete. And you know, even so far as some boxers don't do that for months in advance. I've heard.

[B]

Months.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So basically trim it to the bit.

[A]

This is just the a, you know, liberation that you don't need to worry about it. I think that that's basically what the study's finding is. It's just doesn't affect performance.

[B]

K. The generalizability is limited in the sense that this is like 30 minutes before it's not with a partner. There's no female athletes doing this.

[A]

21 year old young male athletes.

[B]

Yeah, that's also different. Um, so I feel like this has very limited generalizability, but it fits. There's like actually a whole field of research already looking at this too.

[A]

We an athlete study for female athletes.

[B]

Yeah, we do.

[A]

Wouldn't that be great?

[B]

I know. I feel like it's probably trickier because.

[A]

It'S like, it's just trickier in general. Like human sexuality with human sexuality.

[B]

It's like, you know, texting completion is a little bit of a different.

[A]

You would love that.

[B]

Yeah, it's like science.

[A]

Science.

[B]

Sign me up.

[A]

That's the whole thing of the swap podcast. And I resisted making jokes there. Megan.

[B]

About what?

[A]

Oh, you know what I was gonna say.

[B]

It's your gel idea.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Oh, fuck no. You should not do that.

[A]

Well, I'm gonna pilot it now.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yes, please, please. Because like we've already timed it.

[B]

You did your little like.

[A]

Please my Leo, please. When our toddler realizes he's not gonna get what he wants. Okay. This is an actual thing is, you know.

[B]

Oh, I'm just looking at you. I should give you. That was a no. Phase I should give you a yes and phase.

[A]

Can we talk about it at the start of next week's podcast?

[B]

The start.

[A]

Yes. The intro.

[B]

We can talk about at the end of. We can talk about the end of this week's podcast. No, we're already at the end.

[A]

Start of next week's podcast. Okay. Do you want to do any questions? I think we're basically at the end of our time.

[B]

That was so fun.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

We've had so many weeks now where it's like, why can't we just keep going?

[A]

Yeah. Should we do any questions?

[B]

Do you want to do actually Shockwave? Because I feel like that's relevant to your foot right now.

[A]

Okay, here it is. Hi, David. I've had plantar fasciitis. I realize it's fasciitis, and I've been seeing fasciitis for a really long time, for almost a year. I got my MRI yesterday trying to decide how much money to spend on shockwave therapy. I got one treatment, and maybe it was the Portlandia vibes in the office, but I'm concerned it's a sham. Please tell me more about your shockwave experience.

[B]

Shockwave is tricky, actually, because evidenced by our Amazon search, we did this once, I think it was on Patreon, looking at how much money you could buy a Shockwave device for. And some are listed at, like, you know, $200, which obviously is not going to be a great shockwave device. The better ones are in, like, the thousands of dollars range, sometimes many, many thousands of dollars. Like, there can be sham equipment. And so this is a tricky area to navigate.

[A]

But if you're getting it done at an office.

[B]

Well, they didn't say what kind of office.

[A]

I mean, it's not, you know, these people are not giving Shockwave with equipment they bought off Amazon for 200 bucks.

[B]

David, have you been to, like, weird doctor's office, chiropractor's office, physical therapy offices? There are weird places like that out there.

[A]

Every medical practitioner I go to in the back alley off Pearl street, near that gentleman's club, they know what they're doing.

[B]

They have great grade Amazon devices.

[A]

Their credentials are outstanding. No, I mean, but if they're charging money for Shockwave, I think we can be rest assured that these are good devices.

[B]

Okay, you are a trusting individual. I think you should at least ask about it and inquire about the device.

[A]

This is taking skepticism to such a level. I did not think we were going to start here. Let's assume this device actually gives you shockwave and doesn't just kind of, like, tickle you. I think that's a good place to start.

[B]

You never know. But there are two different kinds of shockwave. There's radial and focus. Focused. And focus can be a little bit more intense in that it has, like, higher depth of treatment. It's like, more point focused. And the way that they use pressure between, like, radial and focused is a little bit different. And so sometimes, like, the type of injury, it depends on, like, which device is better for which type of injury.

[A]

And focus is much less common. When I was looking for focus, because I was recommended to do focus treatment after I got the diagnosis of the tear. So the top foot surgeon in the world, actually, I was able to meet with him. He just did Jakob Ingeberson surgery, which so, so fortunate to be able to meet with him, and he suggested do focus. And so I did focus here, but there were only a couple practitioners in the entire Boulder area. One of them was at a regeneration medicine facility, so not sports. And then one did work with athletes and a ton of pros. And so I got focused shockwave. And it was the most painful experience of my life.

[B]

Focus in general is way more painful than radial. Radial often is more diffuse. Whereas, like, focus is, like, you know, more point specific. And I've heard is just, like, so painful.

[A]

But even beyond that, the pain persisted for a long time. For me, I don't think I had a great response to it.

[B]

Well, I think it was done pretty early in treatment. And I think this is where, like, sometimes I feel like I would try radial first just because it's a little bit less intense, it's a little bit more diffuse, and then kind of see what result you have for that for plantar fasciitis. And if not working, then progress into focus once you've had, like, more recovery time.

[A]

Yeah. And then advocate for yourself, too. So I went back a PT in Boulder named Olivia Kovan, who's incredible. Hope she listens to the podcast. You're the best, Olivia. Um, I went back in last week, and I had a pretty traumatic experience with focused, actually, and I. I stayed away from it all.

[B]

Shockwave, you're, like, tearing up the exam paper. And.

[A]

And the less that, like, I can deal with pain, it's more afterward that I don't think it necessarily helped me. Um, and again, I think that might also be in my head. I'm sensitive to these things, but I had her. I was just like, look, can we do the lowest setting? And she's. She told me after we had never done that setting before. It probably was like a tickle. But my foot responded amazingly to it. So I imagine shockwave response probably depends heavily on the individual. And so if you've gone once and didn't really see any change, you are probably need the pretty serious sessions. But in general, what we see in coaching and in some of the clinical studies is that Shockwave is, is maybe the best therapy for long term soft tissue injuries that you can get. Like, it's the thing to break you out of injury cycles.

[B]

I think it's incredible actually. And, you know, I'm a skeptic on these things and I have athletes that like, have long term history or even sometimes athletes that like, have early plantar fasciitis. And it's like, let's get Shockwave on this early. But I think it's also soft tissue injuries, like hamstring injuries. I've seen it work wonders for Achilles depending upon location. I've seen, like, even bone stress injuries often respond well to the healing vibes of Shockwave too.

[A]

Really? Bone stress injuries?

[B]

Yeah, Bone stress injuries.

[A]

Yeah, I know that. I mean, shockwave just seems like in. So for those that don't know, it's like pressure waves. It goes in is like this sound.

[B]

Oh, God, no, no, no.

[A]

I didn't mean to do that.

[B]

Too soon, too soon, too soon, too soon. You can imagine the sound if that didn't come through. Ding.

[A]

Okay, on to Listener Corner. Anything to talk about before we get there.

[B]

Good transition. Let's transition to Janji.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

We love Janji. The gear on their website right now. It's great.

[A]

Why are we always transitioning to John G. Off like the grossest shit Imagine.

[B]

I know. It's like 90 minutes in the podcast. Things get freaky and then we're like John G. It's good palate cleanser before Listener Corner.

[A]

Absolutely. So John G.com J N J I com just put in your email to their, like John G. Collective and you get 15% off everything on the site. Such good stuff going on right now. What are we gonna talk about?

[B]

Okay. They have the Desert Running collaboration going on right now with Aravaipa and it is cool stuff designed by Abigail West. Actually just had her baby this week. So cool. But she was the artist behind it and it's just really like the artistry and how it's incorporated into the clothing, which they do with a lot of different designs. To me, I'm just like, it makes me proud to wear it.

[A]

It's so cool. And then the thermal runner insulated jacket. If you've seen me doing heat suit on all my return runs, that's how I'm coming back to just kind of keep me going slow. It's all been in the thermal runner insulated jacket. It's really, really good.

[B]

And it's back in stock in women's sizes. So they have it in black and they have it in Abigail's really cool desert pattern. And I think I'm such good stuff.

[A]

Okay, on to listener corner. Here it is. David and Megan, I'm sure you get messages like this all the time, but thank you so much for all that you two do for the running space. Over the last year, I've done a very purposeful and intentional elimination of all my social media channels and focused on simplifying my life and eliminating the noise surrounding the running training space that led me to try fads that ultimately led me nowhere except injury. But your podcast is the survivor of this cleanse.

[B]

Oh, hell yeah.

[A]

Your scientific insights and non prescriptive approach to sharing information have left me feeling empowered to make choices that are best for my own training without feeling pressured to do something or buy a certain product. Except for shopping at the feed for my carbs because how have I lived my life to this point without em? They are incredible. Thank you so much for the influence you've had on my training and my overall life perspective. Keep doing what you are doing. I'll still be listening and following along with glove and potato hands. Huzzah.

[B]

Oh my goodness. We survived a cleanse.

[A]

We started a cleanse. But you know what I'm worried about?

[B]

What?

[A]

They might not be on my Instagram.

[B]

Oh yeah, they might not be.

[A]

They might have missed.

[B]

Maybe you would have gotten cleansed. You're like, cleanse this.

[A]

I am too excited about having a character. But I mean, that's first. Yes, do a cleanse. But also it's very cool to survive it because like, our goal at the end of the day is just to give you something that's interesting, maybe ignites a certain thought that mostly is just joyful for, you know, spending your life. Like, I know how. I listen to podcasts. It's my company throughout the week. And so to be someone else's company, especially when they're kind of trimming down those types of things.

[B]

Things.

[A]

Absolute, coolest thing possible.

[B]

Yeah. And thank you for getting to this point in the podcast too. We got some freaky stuff on here today. We got some freaky stuff. Are you questioning that?

[A]

No, I was just trying to. I was trying to, like, think of what I was gonna say.

[B]

Yeah, what are you gonna say?

[A]

I want everyone to be open about their sexuality and how it lies on a spectrum. And that spectrum does not mean that you need to scream like this. It can also mean that you say, I love you all for being here so very much.

[B]

I've never heard you do the voice switch before for.