299. The Best Underdog Story, LT1 v. LT2 workouts, 3 Tips for Health, Science on Supershoes and Slower Paces, and Structuring Training Weeks!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Some Work, All Play – Episode 299

Title: The Best Underdog Story, LT1 v. LT2 Workouts, 3 Tips for Health, Science on Supershoes and Slower Paces, and Structuring Training Weeks!
Hosts: David Roche and Megan Roche
Date: February 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep dive into running science and culture, with a signature blend of honesty, hilarious candor, and love. David and Megan kick things off with banter around their home life and treadmill authenticity, quickly segueing into a packed list of topics: authentic athletic routines (with plenty of pee-bowl talk), dramatic Olympic underdog stories, practical injury and recovery advice, the science of super shoes for all paces, the pitfalls of overtraining, foam rolling data, and heartfelt listener Q&A, including navigating grief and dreaming big.

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Key Themes, Discussions, and Takeaways

1. Real Life, Real Running (00:00–07:06)

• Authenticity in Athletic Routines: Megan’s viral YouTube video includes her using the "pee bowl" during treadmill workouts—a parenting and training hack that spurred a lively online debate.
  • Quote, Megan (02:40): "All I want to do is pee in a bowl and dump it out the window."
  • David shares his own adoption of the practice, humorously noting the efficiency.
• Laterality and Relationship Realness: Pee-bowl logistics, parenting, and vulnerability kick off the show’s themes of keeping things playful and honest.
• Vulnerability Online (05:02): Megan reflects on letting go of comment anxiety and showing "up fully" for both YouTube and podcast audiences.
  • Quote, Megan (05:49): "Now I'm just like, bye Felicia," on dealing with negative comments.

2. Performance Updates & Healing Lessons (08:08–16:24)

• Megan’s Cycling PR: Megan bikes "up the Alp" (referencing Zwift) hitting a power PR despite an old bone spur. She reflects on substituting bike for run on painful days—a tip many grateful listeners have adopted.
• David’s Early Return from Injury: David outlines his accelerated recovery:
  • 2 rest days per week for cellular healing
  • Not poking/prodding the injury
  • Respecting pain’s signals, emphasizing joy over toughing it out.
  • Quote, David (15:05): "Pain is not good when it's an injury. Pain is good when it's, like, working out most of the time."
  • Quote, Megan (15:41): "There's almost this interface between pain and joy where it's actually really hard to experience joy on a run when you're running through chronic pain."
• Simplicity & Efficiency: Both praise keeping routines (PT, logistics, even “pee bowl” solutions) simple to avoid unnecessary life stress.

3. News Highlights: Underdogs at the Olympics (19:48–36:38)

• Ana Gibson & Cam Smith’s Olympic Skimo Relay (19:48–29:26):
  • Detailed retelling of how Cam and Ana, once long-shot underdogs, took 4th in Skimo’s Olympic debut, shocking the world.
  • Ana’s rapid transition skills, VO2 max focus, and pairing with Cam’s perseverance create "the best sports story ever told."
  • Quote, David (21:06): “Ana’s so chill and relaxed and wanted to go on this adventure... they miraculously qualified on the last race.”
  • Drama over the Spanish team’s penalty adds to the rollercoaster, with ethical reflections about fair play and grace in the face of technicalities.
  • Quote, Megan (25:29): "Ana is by far the happiest fourth place person that has ever finished at the Olympics."
• Coaching Skimo for Non-Skiers: David, as Ana’s coach (never having skied), focused on threshold + power-end sessions, arguing aerobic work trumps overemphasizing power for events even as short as 8 minutes.
  • Covered session: 8x5' at threshold, 6x45" hard—less VO2, more sustained work.
  • Quote, David (28:04): "The aerobic system is still the guiding light of physiology at those types of events."
• Transitioning Back to Life: Moving from Olympic peak back to “normal,” with guidance to keep following personal fun and meaning, not just big goals.

4. Embracing Vulnerability, Play, and Not Pleasing Everyone (31:17–36:27)

• Role Models & Play: Figure skater Alyssa Liu’s quotes inspire with a “fuck it, we ball” attitude, focusing on expression not perfection.
  • Quote, Alyssa Liu via David (32:42): "A bad story is still a story, and I think that's beautiful."
  • Quote, Megan (32:59): "All I want to do is just play in the mountains or in the pain cave, almost barfing, and tell stories."
• Not for Everyone: The hosts reflect on how they stopped chasing mass appeal—"not for everyone" is the goal.
  • Quote, David (35:35): "You're not trying to appeal to everyone. You're...trying to appeal to one person...who loves your shit."

5. Science Segments

Super Shoes at Slower Paces (39:07–43:19)

• Study: “Impacts of Advanced Footwear Technology at Slower Running Speeds”
  • Even at very slow paces, the O2 cost is lower in “super shoes”; slower runners may benefit even more over time.
  • Quote, Megan (40:24): "We further show that shoes prioritizing energy return and softness over shoe mass led to a decrement in running economy."
  • Strong message that everyone—regardless of pace—deserves the gear (and fueling!) to make running feel better and more fun.

Viral Science Skepticism: Red Blood Cell Damage in Ultras (43:53–59:32)

• Study: "Long Distance Trail Running Induces...Oxidation in Red Blood Cells"
  • This study went viral due to PR/marketing outreach pitching the dangers of ultras for overall health.
  • David & Megan push back: yes, intense exercise damages almost everything temporarily (that’s adaptation!), but this does NOT prove ultras are harmful long-term.
  • Quote, David (55:14): "Stress is not inherently a bad thing...it’s the reason we have muscles."
  • Caution to beware scary headlines and overblown scientific leaps.

Foam Rolling RCT (63:31–69:42)

• New Data: Six months of foam rolling improved metabolic/lactate response and mechanical power for recreational cyclists.
  • Results promising, but lots of study limitations (sample size, difficulty in blinding).
  • Quote, Megan (67:49): "The conclusions...are to some degree inconclusive, which reflects the broader inconsistencies in scholarly literature."
  • Both hosts agree: helpful for many, but consistency is hard—find what feels good within realistic time constraints.

6. Practical Training Q&A (61:05–92:58)

• LT1 vs. LT2 Workouts on the Treadmill: Definitions, sample formats ("over/unders"), and timing in a week—generally, LT1 (top End Zone 2) is aerobic/recoverable, LT2 (threshold) requires rest after.
• Moving Up to Ultras: Road marathoners are usually "ready" if they train regularly; the biggest adjustment is leg prep for downhills/vert, not distance itself (72:00).
  • Quote, David (71:35): "If you’re asking this question, you’ve done road marathons, you’re ready."
• Epic Dream Juggling: Young athlete wants to chase sub-2:10, ultras, Ironmans, etc.
  • Aerobic training translates, but beware diluting focus—especially for Ironman-level training.
• Grief and Return to Running (80:01): For athletes facing grief, start with walking and gentle movement, focus on play, silly music, no data—be gentle and patient with yourself.
• Overtraining & Group Dynamics (86:08): Listener describes a classic high-mileage, high-intensity weekly schedule
  • Big warning that such "freak athlete interpolated" training systems are unhealthy for most, especially women—long-term health and adaptation hinge on less frequent intensity.
  • Quote, David (87:04): "That is not just too much. It's too much beyond all reasonable comprehension."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Overtraining:
  "You are beating yourself into submission for no additional benefit... This is interpolated down from the outliers." – David (88:38)
• On Being “Too Real”:
  "Meanwhile, the bowl is back in circulation. We did not throw it away." – David (17:45)
• On Community & Failure:
  "Failure doesn’t take away from what matters most. It gives the rest of us permission to take our own chances..." – Listener email (94:22)
• On Focus:
  "You’re not trying to appeal to everyone... The last thing on earth I would ever want to be is least common denominator." – David (35:35)

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Key Timestamps for Major Topics

• 00:00–07:06: Banter and the "Pee Bowl" saga—authenticity and logistics
• 08:08–16:24: Megan’s power record; David’s healing manifesto (rest, simplicity, joy)
• 19:48–36:38: Olympic Skimo underdog miracle + training structure for short events
• 39:07–43:19: Super shoes verdict—yes, even for slow paces!
• 43:53–59:32: Science Reporting Skepticism—Red blood cell “Damage” in ultras dissected
• 63:31–69:42: Foam rolling data—helpful, but not essential
• 61:05 onwards: Q&A—LT1 vs LT2, ultras, grief, overtraining, and fueling Cookout fuel/humor

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Tone and Style

The episode is playful, self-deprecating, and loves embracing “realness.” Science and training advice is kept practical and non-dogmatic, balancing rigor with a spirit of fun and inclusion. The show’s vibe is that of a joyful, nerdy running family, inviting in both personal struggle and celebration.

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For New Listeners

This episode exemplifies SWAP’s winning formula: the science is sound, but always contextual and never prescriptive for all; the personal is candid and lighthearted; and there’s constant encouragement to embrace the messiness, play, and joy of being an athlete (or just a lifelong human in motion). Whether you run ultras or jog for fun, you’ll leave feeling seen, hyped up, and ready to chase your story—pee bowl in tow.

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"We love you all!" – David & Megan (102:31)

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo. Welcome to the summer well played podcast. We are so happy with you today.

[B]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday and I'm firing up our finest china on this Tuesday.

[A]

Our finest china. I think I know where you're going with this one, Megan.

[B]

Our finest china to pee in.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Gotta fire it all up.

[A]

Okay, so for those that didn't see it, Megan's YouTube video debuted on Thursday of last week. It was the hardest workout we've ever done. People are loving it, just going to crazy for it. They like it so much more than videos of me.

[B]

That is not true.

[A]

It is absolutely 1000% true.

[B]

Not true. What makes you say that?

[A]

Literally every single comment on YouTube that you're not looking at, I'm responding to them. But the thing that has resonated most with the people watching that video is they saw the people. We talked about that on the podcast. I think some people thought we were joking, but nope, that made it into the episode. And what is most significant is that you did not use like an old piece of Tupperware or something like that. You actually use the bowl we serve our guests.

[B]

Well, not anymore. Well, that's because actually, Megan, it has

[A]

entered circulation again in our house. You have to be honest.

[B]

Okay. Actually, so we have a cleaning service and they went down one day and I was like, oh, I gotta remove the Tupperware so they don't find our crusty pee. Tupperware?

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So I took it and put it in our trash spot in the garage, but I forgot to get it back out. And then in the morning of filming, I was like, oh no, I need something to pee in for sure. And so I just went up into our closet where we keep our dishes and bowls, and I was like, what do we have? And we had a bowl. A soup bowl.

[A]

Yeah. And so it made it into the video. And now the bowl is just in our, you know, pantry where we have our bowls.

[B]

Well, the cleaning service went back down.

[A]

Okay, that explains.

[B]

And I forgot to grab it. And so they just put it in the dishwasher. Yeah, and I saw it in the dishwasher and I was like, oh, no. So I've actually removed it from circulation.

[A]

But honestly, the response to it really shows me who are the real ones and who are not. Who are just the pretenders. Because like, the pretenders are commenting, like, why would you ever do this? But the real ones are like, oh, of course, you know, because going to the bathroom for us would be upstairs, so it would be at least a minute more Time, probably more.

[B]

Well, as a mom, you're also walking upstairs. Walking upstairs through Leo and Ollie, and I cannot just walk upstairs past Leo and Ollie after I have not been with them for 20 minutes. Like, that just does not happen. There's so many requests. Ollie would, like, crawl over and pull to stand at my feet and be like, scream at me until I picked him up.

[A]

I absolutely agree with where you're coming from here. I am not giving you a hard time. I am saying that you are the ultimate in authenticity and realness. Because if you don't have a pee bowl next to your treadmill, I don't think you really care about your athletic growth. In fact, yesterday, when I was doing my treadmill workout, I brought down an old dog bowl. And I realize now that as we're talking, I forgot to empty it out.

[B]

So you forgot to dump it out the window.

[A]

I'm becoming the crust guy.

[B]

Well, people are like, why don't you just go to REI and buy a camping toilet? And I'm like, that's logistics. You have to get. You have to empty the camping toilet. You have to take care of the camping toilet. It's, like, basically a pet at that point. And I'm like, all I want to do is pee in a bowl and dump it out the window.

[A]

I want to pee in a bowl in peace. And also on YouTube.

[B]

Well, it's. It was authentic to me.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

And I feel like we started the YouTube upstairs in our kitchen with two kids, and I felt like the context of peeing in a bowl when you have two kids upstairs would be understood. But clearly, people who haven't had kids like, don't get that.

[A]

And it's mostly men commenting that don't get it. I feel like the women understand it. And I have been infected because I have an, like, unavoidable urge to go pee now when I'm on the treadmill.

[B]

In fact, I think I've ruined you, because you can just look at the bowl, and I feel like the visual. Like, having it visually right there in front of you, and you're like, of course I have to pee.

[A]

I have to pee. And it's only 10 seconds or whatever. You just hop off, hop right back on. It's the perfect setup.

[B]

It keeps your head in the game.

[A]

It keeps your head in the game means a different thing when you're talking about a man.

[B]

I was going to say other things. Other things in the game, too.

[A]

Keeps your head in the game, but it also just exemplifies your relationship. With P overall. So can you ever talk about this?

[B]

I think I know where you're going.

[A]

We just drove to where we record the episodes and we. What I saw in the center console was a cool blue Gatorade that was no longer cool blue. A little bit different color there. And so we were out. What were we doing? I forget.

[B]

We were out at dinner. We had gone to a bunch of different places and I just casually peed in the Gatorade bottle in the front.

[A]

It's amazing. And you did it with like the feed jacket over your waist so no one could see like around. And you just all of a sudden plop it into the center console. You know, served fresh. Served hot.

[B]

Actually. You're like, megan, why are you putting this pee next to you? Next to me? And so I was like, wait a second. And I just moved it one over. Right next to me.

[A]

She moved it next to herself. It was one of the more savage moves I've ever seen. But I think it just shows a remarkable sense of like bladder control and directionality.

[B]

I've had to train that over time. Yeah. Honestly, I should have just like blown everyone's minds on YouTube and just peed into one of the thin topped soda bottles.

[A]

Oh, like a Coke bottle.

[B]

Coke bottle. Been like, look at this dude, our

[A]

YouTube's gonna pop the fuck off now.

[B]

Peeing in Coke bottles.

[A]

But to be serious, I'm so proud of you for the. Really, really loving it. And yes, half the comments are about the people.

[B]

Actually, I looked at them. Isn't that funny?

[A]

I mean, I told you it was. They were good.

[B]

I didn't, I didn't mind it. This is the thing. I feel like at this point I don't really care about looking at comments anymore.

[A]

I. It's just amazing to see your growth, not just in that area, but in being vulnerable and telling your story. And you know, what you said on YouTube was really vulnerable about how you are going on this journey and you're like really pushing yourself but nothing is guaranteed. And you've been through so much and I think it's really going to resonate with a lot of people. And so I just can't wait to see the rest of your story told on there.

[B]

That means a lot. Well, I don't know what's happened, but it's been so much easier to just show up fully in that way. I mean, I feel like we always do on this podcast, but there's something about YouTube that kind of baffled me of like, you know, showing up people. Yeah.

[A]

And your Body, especially, like, that's so tricky for women and for everyone. But, like, you know. You know that there's people that are evaluating you in ways that are uncomfortable.

[B]

Oh. In every direction. And you're just like, that is awkward. And it feels weird. And I've just kind of gotten past that. And I've gotten past the comments, too. I think I saw you actually just delete a comment at one point and then block a person. And you're just like, bye, Felicia. And I feel like I now carry that energy whenever I see comments that are just like, you know, we get irksome comments on everything we do at this point. And now I'm just like, ba. Felicia.

[A]

Well, on the next YouTube video, the P Bowl implies the existence of a bucket. So we should really just step up our game next time. What do you think?

[B]

I don't know. I don't.

[A]

We should show them everything. To be truly authentic. We should show them our bucket.

[B]

We do not have a bucket.

[A]

Megan. Why are you telling them we don't have a bucket? What do you think the Home Depot buckets are for?

[B]

I don't know if I could actually bring myself to do that.

[A]

You couldn't? No. I mean, I do have to go to the bathroom like that. More than you do in workouts.

[B]

You have to go to the bathroom like that all the time. I'm like, what are you doing?

[A]

I understand. That's why I need to get a colonoscopy, which I'm trying to get next week. But, you know, I was thinking about it. It would be efficient. So.

[B]

No, I draw the line.

[A]

I draw the line, Megan, Come on. Every relationship gets a little bit stale at some point. And what are. What are we like, you know, 15 or 16 years. 16 years in into our relationship. It's like, that's when you bring in the bucket.

[B]

You should have brought in the bucket earlier. And I've been like, I'm out of here.

[A]

We have the best episode for your day. We're going to start talking about Megan's big power record. My first running workout back. Some lessons on healing there. Then us Schema making history. Featuring Ana Gibson and Cam Smith. Why Alyssa? Alyssa Liu is our new favorite athlete. Some shows we are liking for the treadmill. Maybe a study on super shoes at slower paces. A question we get a ton. A provocative study on red blood cell damage after ultras.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of good studies on this. And that might be. It's not a takedown, but I'm just kind of like, why was it presented this way.

[A]

Yeah. And we'll get into some details there that make us feel a little bit uncomfortable. Then a foam rolling science study from cycling that makes me want to get off the foam roller again.

[B]

Did you see how long they were foam rolling for months? It was long. It was like 30 to 45 minutes a day.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my God. I didn't actually see that.

[B]

Yeah. I went down to the methods and I'm like, how are they actually doing this? Do you have 30 to 45 minutes extra minutes a day?

[A]

I mean, I could find them. I could find them for foam rolling.

[B]

Like, that's how we poop in buckets. That's how you save the time later in day.

[A]

And then a big Q and A on moving up to Altra's training structure. Grief aerobic volume car run. No carb runs, which make us uncomfortable and lots more. But first, we're going to start with you, Megan, because you went up alpes with on the bike, your foot was hurting a little bit that morning, so you just bailed on your long run.

[B]

Yeah, I think I have a bone spur on the top of my foot. Did you actually know that? It's called a tarsal boss.

[A]

A tarsal boss.

[B]

I'm like, my foot's just a boss.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say it looks like a boss.

[B]

I know I've got this big ridge on my foot that I've had for like 10 years that has hurt on and off, you know, and then I take four days and it goes away. But actually now when that four day period of time happens, I get so excited because I'm like, ah, can bike. This is great.

[A]

It's one of the most magical things about your return postpartum that I think every athlete can do. And we, whenever we talk about this on the podcast, we get tons of messages on Patreon, people saying, oh, my God, thank you, Megan, for telling me this is okay. Which is when you wake up and you have a little pain, you just hop on the bike and don't think about it and you don't worry about weekly volume or running or anything like that because, you know, if you put it into the right context, it works. And so you got onto the bike that morning, you just had Gnomeo, not bicarb, which put you behind the eight ball. Like, Gnomeo is good, but bicarb is the good shit.

[B]

Well, I had Gnomeo, but I was coming off of watching Anna and Cam in the Olympics in schema, which we'll talk to talk about in a second. And I felt like I just had all of this motivational energy within me. And I was like, maybe I'll just go up the ALP and see what happens.

[A]

What I said to you is, Megan, don't go up the alp.

[B]

I won't, I won't.

[A]

You said you're like, oh, well, maybe, maybe. And of course I went down there and you just totally stone faced me. Not a single word to me or to Leo, our kid. When I went down, you're just like, okay. It's like she's going, she's going hard.

[B]

And it kind of gave me brain panic at first actually. Cause I don't do. I haven't done a bike workout in months. Like I do a lot of time in Z2 on the bike. And the first switchback up the app, I was like, this three minutes is more power output than I put out in three minutes in a long time.

[A]

Oh yeah. I mean what's remarkable about what you did is you ended up averaging almost 2:30 watts. I think 228 for under 45 minutes up the ALP is, well one, you did it at high cadence and high cadence cycling indoors is so much realer than the traditional way of riding outdoor indoors for advanced athletes, which is you get out of the saddle and just grind at a low cadence, which is what I do. Which is not real power. I mean it is real power you're actually putting into the pedals, but it does not apply outside in the same way or I think to running in quite the same way.

[B]

Well, you're like, get out of the saddle, get outta the saddle. And I did in the final three minutes. And I was like, why didn't I do that the rest of this time?

[A]

And that's number two is you set your three minute power PR in the last three minutes of this 45 minute effort, which partially shows you only do Z2 on the bike.

[B]

Also, I should have gone harder.

[A]

I mean, maybe I think it's partially. That's just these. You're out of the saddle doing the different form. And so the power you put out is so much realer than the power I put out. But even with that, the raw numbers were outstanding and you went to the. Well in ways I haven't seen in a long time.

[B]

I almost threw up all over the pain cave floor. I don't know what happened. Actually, I have not heard. I think partially because one didn't have bicarb on board and haven't done an effort like this without bicarb on board in A bit. It was like raw dogging it. And two, I think, you know, not having done a bike workout like this in a minute, and my body was just like, what is happening right now?

[A]

Also, I was on the treadmill next to you by the end, and I was crop dusting you pretty hard.

[B]

That was not during the effort.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I guess that was after I was. I was like cooling down at 100

[A]

watts and you were so full of love for me that every time I just like let out a big fart, you're just like, oh, I love you, David. I'm like, thank you. I know.

[B]

So there's something that like brings out love in me, like absolutely destroying my body. And I. I'm just like, I love you, David. Thank you, coach. But I think I had a lot of gratitude because you got me here. Like, to me, these are better bike numbers than I've ever had before without doing bike workouts. And I think, like, seeing I had this reflection on Citus this week too when I was running is like, David, you're a brilliant coach. And seeing that put into action, like how I feel on the trails, how I feel I'm biking without having done any focused cycling work, and I'm just like, damn.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

So it was. It was love.

[A]

You're just a freak, though. I mean, to be, to be real, and I mean, that is exemplified on the bike. I mean, think it was 95 cadence or something. And the big conclusion I've had from my cycling journey over the last six weeks is the high cadence cycling translates so much better to running. And I always parroted the wisdom of self selected cadence is best. And I truly do not think that's true indoors at least. I think that indoors you can game the system by riding out of the saddle or riding really big gears in a way that does not apply outside in the same way, and then does not translate to running in the same way. I always used to struggle so much with my return and I'm feeling great right now. My, my numbers on the treadmill at least, which you know, themselves might be a little bit fake, but are so beyond what they ever were on past returns. And I think it's just I learned a lesson from you, which is the high cadence cycling. Use that, commit to it, and that neuromuscular translation will be so much better when you are running.

[B]

Well, we're planning a hundred mile gravel ride date and I'm like, God damn, David, you've increased your watch so much that I'm like, oh my gosh, this is gonna hurt. It's gonna be a big day for me.

[A]

Yeah, it's gon so fun. And that gets to the, like, healing takeaways for me here. I wrote about this on Patreon where I did a really big, you know, just examination of how I'm coming back sooner than I was quoted. I, you know, I was told I wouldn't be back to racing until July by some top doctors. And hopefully I'll be back in March doing an ultra that we're signed up for already.

[B]

That is wild.

[A]

We'll see.

[B]

It scares me a little bit. I filmed you doing a stride this week, and you can hear in the video, usually I'm just like, yeah, go for it. Hit the paddle. And I'm just like, ah, be careful.

[A]

So people pointed that out and I think, you know, healing is an individual journey. And I have a trillion disclaimers in that article. But a few things that I do think apply to everyone that I talked to Megan a lot about in this process and then applied First, I took two rest days every week where I didn't do anything. I didn't poke or prod my foot. Yes, I parented, which is a certain amount of background stress. But I think sometimes when people are injured, they feel like they're not being a good athlete unless they're always doing exercises, always doing something to try to get better. And the body heals most in empty spaces. So, yes, you want to do things when it's time. But I rested every Monday and Friday fully, and I think that was really good from a cellular level healing perspective, but then also just offloading the tissues and helping them rebuild.

[B]

Also longevity, too. Like these last two years, you've pushed yourself really hard. And I think having this space where you're taking, you know, you're only training five days a week, I think is actually so important for your longevity as an athlete too.

[A]

Yeah. Now I'm back to six and feeling really, really good. My HRV and numbers are better than they've ever been, and so that probably is good even outside of the healing process. So consider two days off. Number two, don't poke or prod too much.

[B]

This is the hardest one. We have like a human urge to when something hurts just to be like, poke, poke, poke. I don't know where that comes from. Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's especially relevant in athletes because you just want to be doing something. And I think my big experience was I went and did Shockwave and it seemed just did not feel productive. And I listened to that feeling and offloaded it a little bit.

[B]

Where shockwave often is productive for a lot of other athletes. And I think that was your individual thing is, like, I think also too mentally, it just scared you a little

[A]

bit, especially in the initial healing phase. And then number three, the last one, listen to your pain. Um, it's so hard for athletes that, like, pain is not good when it's an injury. Pain is good when it's, like, working out most of the time. Um, but for me, anything sharp, it was immediately stop. It was immediately rest for two days and feeling something was okay. And so we'll see. It'd be hilarious if I'm back in a boot tomorrow when I try to run outside again. But so far, the, like, rosiest, most optimistic projections are being blown out of the water. So, yeah, I think, like, really it comes down to resting and giving something space to just let it heal.

[B]

I'm so proud of you for that. It's not easy to do that. Like, I feel like resting is often the hardest thing, as is, like, listening to the pain and stopping. And I find that's where to me, there's almost this, like, interface between pain and joy where it's actually really hard to experience joy on a run when you're running through chronic pain. And that's where I'm like, you should absolutely stop and recover. Because sometimes it's like a slippery slope where you don't actually see that joy starting to fade until you get back out there and you're not thinking about an injury anymore and you're like, this is so joyful.

[A]

So true, so true. I mean, it's. It's a mind fuck. Because athletes are trained to appreciate pain and eventually embrace it to the point that it becomes your friend. Right? Like, if you make friends with pain, you'll never be alone.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Like, to me, almost barfing on the pain cave floor, I was like, that was the best.

[A]

And you're filled with so much love. But that's not the way it works with something healing. And for me, once I turned off that flame, I got better so much faster and just didn't load myself very much in the process. So if you're out there, rest does a lot. And things heal and rest a lot better than they heal when you're doing just, like, epic shit, like pt, Epic, even epic PT exercises that I was told, I was just like, I don't feel comfortable with that. And we'll see. I mean, maybe I'm setting myself up to, like, be weak in some way that will affect me long term? I don't think so, though. I think, you know, this approach has worked pretty well.

[B]

Well, I love what you do because I feel like you take complicated things often and find the simplest but still rigorous way to get benefit from it. Like, I feel like this actually applies to the people. Discussion is like, our lives are so busy that us going to REI and getting a toilet and putting in the pain ca of that is so complicated. And when you make things in life complicated when you're already busy and have kids, it just starts stacking up to be too much. I think the same thing goes for like pts. You can make that over complicated to the point that one, you don't do it, or two, that it's just like too much stress on your body. And I feel like you found this, like, very narrow range of exercises. Like the people that I can't help.

[A]

I can't help but laugh. You're making the people into an inspirational context.

[B]

I'm like, keep it simple, stupid.

[A]

Meanwhile. Meanwhile, the bowl back is back in circulation. We did not throw it away.

[B]

No, I took it out.

[A]

I promise you that is true. That is not true, Megan. I've been eating pee out of the pee bowl.

[B]

I have two bowls that look the same.

[A]

It is both a pee bowl and a pea bowl.

[B]

Yeah, we have two bowls that look the same.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Probably smell similar too.

[A]

Okay, let's get on to all the news and studies. But before that, a quick promo for the feedback. Go to the feed.com swap swap. If you go there, you get 40% off your first order. And if you're a returning customer, 10% off every hundred dollars spent. It is fucking awesome. And the thing I wanted to talk about is momentous collagen. So there's a bunch of collagen supplements at the feed, and I took collagen three times a day throughout this healing process. And I think it's made a big difference, even though, you know, it might not necessarily be researched back to go above 15 grams, which is one serving. The way I've done it, I think has put my body in a pretty good healing context for the tendon itself.

[B]

And what I wanted to talk about are the enervit gels, because why are they so tasty? I actually had a moment at conniption on the bike this week because it was all I wanted to take. Yeah, they have just ruined me because it's like the only gel I want to take. But I do like mixing things up in terms of transporters. So those are 2 to 1 in terms of ratios. And I like 1 to 0.8 better. And so I'm just like. But they're so good. They're good, they're so good. I mean, on the bike, where to me, transporters matter less because it's less of a GI stress issue. Like, all I'm going to take are enervit gels on the bike.

[A]

And gels are so good. So get the enerv caffeine gels in particular if you want that one gel for like your 8 mile run each day. That just makes you fly high. Like if you take it after 15 minutes. Oh, God, it feels good.

[B]

Yeah. I took 100 milligram calf gel like 10 minutes before going up the ALP. And about eight minutes up the ALP, I was like, I feel it. I'm motivated.

[A]

And then final thing is dream shot for sleep. Tons of podcast listeners swear by it. We get messages all the time. But a gentle sleep aid, that can help and you can take it long term without any issues. Okay, so now let's get on to some news before the science. We'll put the news early because we wanted to talk about the best sports story ever told.

[B]

I am freaking out. Anna and Cam. Fourth at the Olympics.

[A]

Fourth at the Olympics. Schemo Team mixed relay. So Schemo made its Olympic debut, just very briefly, to go over the backstory which we talked about in December. Cam has been going at this for a decade. I was talking to Cam and going through his story. It's a story of perseverance and belief that boggles the mind. He has probably been told a thousand times, why are you still doing this? Why are you still going? So when he first started Schemo, he was a pack filler at best, finishing at the very back of World Cups in Europe. And over time, he got himself better and better. And this went through terrible injuries. He obliterated his knee. He had season ending injuries multiple times. And he kept showing up, even though the Olympic path was very unlikely. And it wasn't until he recruited Ana Gibson, superstar trail runner, third at the uphill at the World Trail Championships this year, US Mountain Running Championship. Who grew up on skis but had

[B]

never done ski mo, had a Nordic ski background. So clutch in retrospect, so clutch.

[A]

And he recruited her and Anna just being the chillest person alive. It reminds me actually of Pringles, the old Mitchell Berg joke, where Pringles was initially supposed to be making like potato chips or whatever, and then one day they got, you know, blah Blah, blah. Fuck. I messed that joke up so bad.

[B]

I was like, where are you going with this?

[A]

I actually know Pringles was supposed to make tennis balls. And then they got potatoes and they're like, fuck it, cut them up.

[B]

You were so close.

[A]

Yeah. So far at the same time. But Anna's so chill and relaxed and wanted to go on this adventure. And then they miraculously qualified on the last race. And even then at the team mixed relay, they were considered the ultimate long shot. They were seated ninth, but most were projecting them even lower. And on 5:30 at mountain time on Saturday, they went out and absolutely shocked the world. So.

[B]

And you could tell, actually. So the Olympics filmed their, like, walk up, or I guess they're like, ski shuffle up as they shuffle up to the line. And she and Cam did a handshake that was just like, a lot of athletes are, like, looking so nervous and are just stone faced. And she and Cam did this like, handshake and a giant smile. And I'm like, they're ready to throw down.

[A]

How much do you think they rehearsed the handshake?

[B]

Oh, it was so much better than our handshake.

[A]

It was that we did with.

[B]

If we were going to be filmed by NBC, we'd have practiced that a lot.

[A]

I'd probably be pretty bad no matter how much we practice. And so it's remarkable because it's this sport that requires ice in your veins more than almost any other because it's the huge VO2 max stimulus. But there's something like 16 transitions per athlete.

[B]

Well, that's what I was most impressed with, is all of these transitions require a lot of, like, focus and also background. And Ana coming in and not having this experience, like, only practicing these transitions since August, like, her technical ability and her ability to learn that so fast, like, blows my mind.

[A]

And when you're nervous as hell.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When one huge mistake puts you out of it right away.

[B]

Well, and also when you're heart rate is sky high. It kind of reminds me of biathlon in that sense of like, you know, your heart rate is so high and then you're skiing in and you have to focus and be able to fire. Very similar to, like, you know, these transitions in schema where you're trying to come in and your heart rate's really high and do these transitions.

[A]

We need more rifles and running. Yeah, we don't actually

[B]

take that and put that where your Pringles cans are.

[A]

But could you imagine if at every aid station at Western states or something, you had to get out the rifle that you've been carrying the whole time.

[B]

How about just a shoe transition?

[A]

A shoe transition.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

Mixing it into not biathlon, more like chemo. Yeah, I can, I can agree with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I can see that you're panicked right now about my rifle joke, my biathlon joke. Why are you panicked about that?

[B]

Guns, man. Guns. Guns are fine.

[A]

Guns are American.

[B]

Get out of here.

[A]

You're on the Second amendment.

[B]

Get out of here.

[A]

Obviously we were talking about a poop bucket just a minute ago.

[B]

So take everything I say with obviously that is satire. I feel like some people on the Internet like, like have such a hard time understanding satire.

[A]

Oh. I mean, if they're here.

[B]

Yeah. If you're, if you've gotten to this point, you'd definitely understand satire.

[A]

And so a really interesting wrinkle of all this is on the final handoff from Ana to Cam. So they goes Ana Cam, Ana Cam. Over a course of about a 30 minute event, the team in third place, the Spanish woman, skied past the transition area by accident. I think she was just so far gone with fatigue that she just didn't remember that she couldn't ski around the corner. Um, and the whole rest of the race the question was, is this going to be a three second penalty or

[B]

a 30 second penalty or a full DQ?

[A]

Or a full DQ. And a 30 second penalty would mean USA finishes third on the bronze medal position. And after the race there's this amazing video of the broadcast had gone with no announcers at that point. They were just showing background like B roll type footage. And all of a sudden you see the woman that had made the mistake start celebrating. But then the guy partner, who I think also won the sprint gold, starts just bawling his eyes out, which was the news that they only got a three second penalty and we're going to be third place, which was so beautiful.

[B]

It was so beautiful.

[A]

At the same time, you know, the

[B]

lawyer in you was like the lawyer

[A]

in me being honest coach and also the Team USA second amendment guy or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. Also come in from a background in track. Like, if you ever go past the exchange handoff in track, you're fully disqualified. I'm like, why is Schemo so much kinder?

[A]

I was going ballistic. I was reading the rule book. I was saying like, I'm going to go over there and I'm going to bring America's best lawyers. That's what we export lawyers and best

[B]

lawyers and best buy athletes.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I don't think Ana and Cam would have wanted to get third that way.

[B]

And that was my takeaway, is Ana is the kind of person. She actually had an Instagram post after that was like, I am by far the happiest fourth place person that has ever finished at the Olympics. And I don't think she would want to get a bronze medal that way. Like, that's just who Ana is. And I don't know, like, being someone that carries mistakes so heavily, too, I was like, for that Spanish woman, imagine how heartbreaking that would be for the rest of your life.

[A]

Her story, I think it was Ana or Anna as well on the Spanish team, is remarkable. Like it would have. You know, for them to get bronze is just truly mind blowing.

[B]

Did you see her at the awards ceremony, too? This is like 45 minutes after. this point, she looked like she was about to perish on the spot. I don't know if it was like, you know, her putting herself out there and just going fully lactic and then having this, like, you know, this adrenaline rush of, you know, finding out about the bronze medal. But I was like, someone please give her water.

[A]

I saw some images of her just wrecked, and I saw images of all of them wrecked. I think it's the hardest thing you can do physically is the schema team mixed relay.

[B]

I actually agree with that. Yeah.

[A]

Because you're getting just enough time to clear lactate on the transitions that you're pushing VO2 for a quantity of time. That is probably almost impossible otherwise, like, anaerobic levels above VO2 that I think if we measured in a lab, you can't get harder than the skimo team mixed relay.

[B]

It'd be fun to have a lactate, a lactate strip out there and just be like, show us your numbers. I find that fascinating, though, because, you know, you've been coaching Ana, which is cool because you've never been on skis before. Yeah. First I'll look at the ski coach not having been on skis, and it

[A]

shows how remarkable Ana is that, like. Like, throughout this process, she believed in me. Like, obviously, I believe in Ana, and I don't need an athlete to believe in me. Like, that's not what the role of the coach is. Right. The athletes shouldn't be thinking about that. But for an athlete to never question the fact that, like, you know, you're on a this journey, you're on this journey as a team is just one of the most meaningful things in my entire life. That as soon as she started this process, she's like, david, I'm all in. And as soon as people told her to do different things, she's like, David, what do you think we should be doing? And for her to do that, it's just. I'll cherish that for the rest of

[B]

my life, but mechanically walk me through. Because this is such a VO2 demanding event. There's also even boot pack, where you're running upstairs in the middle of the ski race, where your skis are in the back of your book bag. And how did you structure? You actually didn't give her a lot of VO2 work. You gave her a lot more of threshold based work.

[A]

Yeah, just lots of aerobic work, traditional swap style, where we want to build the power. But Ana is a monstrous power athlete to begin with, with. I was interviewed by the New York Times about her and said, well, if it wasn't this, in another life, she'd be, you know, the starting striker on the soccer team.

[B]

Also, look at her technical skills. I've always said this. It's like, put on a kayak or something.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And I mean, she's incredible cyclist too. And that type of athlete, we don't need to focus a ton on top end power. And in fact, if you do, you're probably gonna start to see aerobic regression instead. We would do solid amounts of threshold work followed by power after, but the power would be very short intervals. So a good example of one of our key sessions was 8 by 5 minutes at around threshold with 1 or 2 minutes recovery followed, then by 6 by 45 seconds where we pushed hard on top of it. But very small doses of that VO2 work, which I think is different than a lot of how people approach short events like Schemonis, because the aerobic system is still the guiding light of physiology at those types of events. And so while power matters, power only matters insofar as you have to saturate the, you know, mechanical adaptations. After that, it really becomes about the aerobic system.

[B]

And it's so cool to see that actually play out because each of these legs are about eight minutes. And when you think about the aerobic contributions to an 8 minute leg, and then she's going and getting on the bike and, you know, keeping her legs fresh before the next eight minute shift. But it's like, we don't have a lot of context within sports of like 2 by 8 minutes as a structure. And I think it's actually such a cool and beautiful way to structure an event in the Olympics.

[A]

Yes. And, you know, in that last leg, she passed a lot of people um, and it just shows that the aerobic system guides you even when you're doing very short events. And that's the way training theory has moved. The 800 is a little bit different, but as soon as you get in running.

[B]

Oh, It's, I mean, two minutes. Yeah.

[A]

1500 on up, it's like everything. And in cycling, you see this all the time. We have a question. I'm not sure if it's in the podcast outline that was asking about essentially why in cycling is power. Power, basically. And, you know, the best Grand Tour riders are also the best at short efforts. And that is the ultimate, like, experiment about the aerobic system and how it applies. And I think running is the same way that you need your speed met, you need your top end met. Um, but that doesn't take much work. It takes constant work, like year round work. Um, you should never get far away from it, which is why systems that do, I think, are missing the point. But once you do have it, you just need to reinforce it, not constantly focus on it.

[B]

Okay, where do you think Ana is going from here? Because, you know, someone like this on a top trail athlete, also top skimo athlete, top cyclists, she could do anything she wants. How do you guide her now in this process of coming back after the Olympics and like, reentering normal life, which historically is, like, very challenging for athletes?

[A]

Well, I know where Ana's going.

[B]

Where is she going?

[A]

I can't say that yet, but I can tell my guidance, which is just be Ana, right? Like, she didn't get to this point by specializing or by caring what other people think, or by chasing the next big thing or trying to be a champion. She got here by chasing what was most fun and enriching to her. And what's really cool about this is, like, it's the embodiment of a human who's just open to the world. And she's one of the most remarkable people I've ever met. And seeing her partner with Cam, who has this just, like, absolute fire within

[B]

him and also a talented engine. So we saw Cam at Broken arrow in the VK, and I think the VK is a great approximation, actually, because it's basically a VO2 test. It's a great approximation for ski mountaineering. And he took it to some of the best, including Eli Heming, who's out there outstanding at VO2 and, like, VK kind of performances.

[A]

Yeah, I'm just so blown away. And that's what led to your really good bike.

[B]

I had so much stoke, I was like, what am I supposed to do with this?

[A]

Um, and on that note, some of the messages I sent to Ana before this event were just quotes from Alyssa Liu, who won the gold in figure skating. All of the world has fallen in love with her. She's maybe the most remarkable person of all time.

[B]

How can you not? I feel like when she skates, it's almost like she's. I think, for me, what it is is that she's. It's so clear that she's happy to be out there performing, and she wants to put on a show. And I feel like sometimes in figure skating, you don't necessarily see that, like, drive to want to entertain.

[A]

You see pressure.

[B]

You see pressure. And I think, like, she's found a way, you know, through quitting sport and coming back to get around that pressure. And it's so beautiful when you see it translated on ice.

[A]

I mean, you see this in Hans Troyer, who we talked about last week, and there was an article written about me by. In Outside, I think, last year.

[B]

That was a beautiful article.

[A]

Yeah, that. Where they essentially said, like, if you told a kid that they could keep doing a sport like that, to me, is the ultimate compliment. And for, you know, Alyssa, what's so cool about her story is she burned out and quit for multiple years and then came back with a totally different perspective, Essentially a fuck it, we ball outlook. And here's a couple quotes that I shared with Ana. Here's the first one. I love sharing my story, my art, and the process of creation. Even if I make mistakes, they don't disappear. Something still remains. They still become part of the story. A bad story is still a story, and I think that's beautiful.

[B]

A bad story is still a story. I love that so much. Yeah.

[A]

Just it becomes of a part of the story. And when you liberate yourself to tell that, I mean, I feel like you're doing that on YouTube right now.

[B]

Actually, that's exactly how I feel is right now all I want to do is just play in the mountains or in the paint cave.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Almost barfing and tell stories. And I think. I feel. I think part of my. I just feel so unburdened by that process. And even by the. You know, whenever you do that, like, I'm sure Alyssa's gotten so much pushback in her life. You're always going to get pushed back, but I feel unburdened by that. And I think it's just because I just, like, want to be in the mountains telling my story. And it feels so, like, the act of doing that feels so right to me.

[A]

How did you get unburdened?

[B]

I actually don't know. I was thinking about that this morning, and I'm like, I don't know where I. Like, I lost that. Yeah.

[A]

Because it's not just the heart that helped. Right. That started to move the process forward. It's not just parenting that helped, and maybe it's adding all this stuff up together, but I feel like, really, over the last few months, it's, like, really hit the top end.

[B]

I think some of it's also leaning into love, too, of our relationship is like, how I don't really need to please anyone. I do kind of need to please you just because you're my partner, and I love that. And that's like, the shared relationship. But, like, at the end of the day, like, you know, random people on the Internet don't matter. What matters is us and our family. And I think it becomes so much more like that, to me, has, like, freed me from caring, is like, and I can do whatever. I can pee in a Gatorade bottle. And you're just like, that's the best it is.

[A]

Sometimes you need to move it to your side of the car.

[B]

When it's on my side of the car, it's okay. And I think, like, that's totally unburdened to me. And I think I truly feel that is like, that love to me. It's like, it's freed me from caring about what other people think.

[A]

Fun postscript. Pee bottle's still in the car two days later.

[B]

Sometimes, you know, when you pull right into the garage, it's kind of hard to take it out and dump it out.

[A]

I validate it, Megan. And honestly, we could probably sell that bottle on the Internet for quite a lot of money.

[B]

So it's pretty yellow.

[A]

Maybe consider it. Is all I'm saying.

[B]

B vitamins beforehand. It's a little radioactive.

[A]

Yeah. But I mean, also on that note, I was reading an amazing article in the sports website Defector that was talking about some podcast about basketball, and the author was insulting this podcast and saying that it seems like they're trying to be 5 million people's 10th favorite podcast rather than 1,000 people's favorite podcast. And that, to me, has been the most liberating thing in my life, is understanding that you're not trying to appeal to everyone. You're not even trying to appeal to a lot of people or a community. You're trying to appeal to one person in Topeka who loves your Shit, right? Like not a thousand people, like one person. And if that resonates and hits, then you are good. And so like, when you say, you know, obviously, you know, I'm always gonna be happy, but then you still create, you still put out there. And it's like, well, you know, the last thing on earth I would ever wanna be is least common denominator. You know, you wanna be someone that is not for everyone. I like, that is the whole goal.

[B]

And I think I've. I think that's actually part of it too, is I've just absorbed that goal and realized. And I think with this podcast too, it's like, you know, we've stopped being like, we want to make this the biggest podcast in the world, partially because we're very constrained by ultrarunning. The ultra running community is actually relatively small. But at the same time too, it's like we just want to be for the people that like us and I like and are here for who we are authentically. And that to me has just been so game changing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then it reminds me actually of Taylor Tomlinson and she has a comedy special coming out on Tuesday and she talks a lot about this and I'm excited for the comedy special, kind of in that vein, hearing how she's been a little bit freed by it.

[A]

Yeah, that'll be so cool. And so last quote here, an interviewer asked her, do you feel pressure that you have to go win in the gold? So this was before her routine. She said, no, I'm just really excited. My goal is to hype people up and have them feel something. I'm fine with that.

[B]

I'm fine with that.

[A]

I'm fine with that. Hype people up and have them feel something. I think that that's where it's at.

[B]

Oh, it was hard not to feel something watching it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And like, even if she had fallen, you would be feeling something. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, let's get on to the studies. I think think we're ready to move on from all the news we have here.

[B]

Are you sure?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

Never really skip something. I'm like, but that was so interesting.

[A]

We have so much to talk about. Megan, we're already 36 minutes in. You said we were gonna get to questions before 45.

[B]

True.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What was I thinking?

[A]

You didn't know the bucket was gonna come up.

[B]

I know. We're Anna. I could talk for so many hours about Anna.

[A]

I'm so, so proud of her. All right, so let's get on to the first study. Before we do that, the most exciting thing just dropped on Patreon. So patreon.com swaps starts at $5 a month. We have a training theory encyclopedia now where 66 articles on every single topic are organized by subject matter. So everything from guides on heart rate to fueling to training theory to specific types of workouts, everything we've written over the years. And we're going to keep adding to that since there's some more that haven't quite made it in yet. And so, yeah, if you want to learn about training theory, like a lot of people are like, oh, what books do I read? I'm like, well, actually, if you read all 66 of this articles, many of which have jokes that make it fun, you'll have something that could be a book. In fact, maybe we should just release a book.

[B]

What do you think of all those articles? Reminds me of how it was. Project Hail Mary or was it the Martian was written where Andy Weir slowly released those characters one at a time.

[A]

Yeah. He was doing some other job on

[B]

a Patreon community and it's like, yeah, you could definitely put that in a book.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, someone commented that why don't you just make this into a book and not do it on Patreon? But Patreon's the whole point right now.

[B]

Well, it's pinned right there. And so it has that compilation is there, plus all of the training plans. And it's really nice to have that all in one spot.

[A]

Yeah. And so here's a message that we get 10 of these a week. Um, hey y', all, you probably have a ton of these messages at this point, but one more can't hurt. I just did a PR at the Black Canyon 100k last weekend following your Champion Champion training plan. It was a bucket list race and it felt so amazing. I never thought this was possible. Thanks for all you do. Both for the community at large and for us individual normal folks, that means a ton. That's everything.

[B]

It's kind of wild. We have a lot of athletes out there now using the training plans.

[A]

Yeah. Um, yeah. Kind of a scary amount.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But thankfully they now we know they. If they didn't work, we would know people would tell us. Instead we get messages like this. So also there at the $10 tier heart rate zones, if you have accurate heart rate, not wrist based. A lot of people have been sending

[B]

risk based heart rate recently. That will jack up David's testosterone, which is.

[A]

Okay, I'm not gonna get mad. I'm Just gonna say, hey, is something wrong? So after $10 here, but as always, if you can't afford it, just let us know. And that goes for patreon generally. So patreon.com swap all right, let's get to the first study because this addresses a question. We get so much from athletes. Hear us talk about shoes, and in particular hear me talk about shoes and how much I love them and say, but does this apply to everybody?

[B]

I actually moved this up. This is going to be our third scientific study of the day. And I was like, wait, wait, wait. We get so many questions about athletes running marathons and just being like, you know, I'm running at this pace and it doesn't feel as fast compared to the top athletes. Do I deserve super shoes? And the answer is always yes.

[A]

And I love it.

[B]

Invest in it.

[A]

I love a study that confirms my biases and my shoe fetish at the same time. So it's called the Impacts of Advanced Footwear Technology at Slower Running speeds. It took 14 runners at four different speeds from 7.5km an hour up to 12km an hour and had them test three different shoes. A regular shoe, a super shoe, and then a mixed shoe that was essentially a no non plated super trainer. And the results were amazing for us super shoe folks. The oxygen cost was much lower with the super shoe, even at the slowest paces. And those differences were independent of speed.

[B]

And I pulled a quote from the study because, David, I felt like this quote was going to be music to your ears because you constantly harp on the idea of shoe mass matters. So the weight of a shoe matters. And I feel like sometimes when we have these conversations, it's always like, oh, but it only matters for the fast runners. And it's like, no, it actually matters for everyone. And here's the quote. We further show that shoes prioritizing energy return and softness over shoe mass over led to a decrement in running economy in this population compared with advanced footwear technology. Shoes with no noticeable gains in perceived comfort.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Shoe mass matters.

[A]

Yeah. So if you prioritize other things over shoe mass, it led to a decrement in running economy. Hot damn you. Once again, I think that all we're really seeing in a lot of these treadmill based studies is shoe mass. And I don't know if the outdoors, the relationship works in the same way.

[B]

Oh, probably changes quite a bit when you start throwing in rocks and hills, but I think it still holds. I mean, it's like, you know, when we look at, you know, relationships between like 10K, like an athlete's performance in the 10K and how that translates to UTMB. Yeah, there's still, like, still a lot of that correlation holds. I'm curious to see, like, what happens. As you know, we apply these shoes to trails too.

[A]

And in the first case study done on trails, they found that the Nordara 005 was so much more economical than other shoes. And the Nordara 005 just happens to be lighter. It doesn't even have a plate. So I think shoe companies need to focus way more on weight and especially for trail shoes because the road shoes are all quite light now, but trail shoes just get heavier and heavier. I. I was reading that the Aggravik tt, so there's a Aggravik Speed Ultra shoe and then there's a TT shoe that's designed for technical terrain. I read that it's over 11 ounces for men. What? And it's like, what are you thinking? You're not paying attention to the fucking science. And the science is just so clear and obvious. So that's my.

[B]

That was a great Adidas riff. We need one Adidas riff per episode.

[A]

It's been a few episodes.

[B]

It has been a few episodes. Like you're backing off. David,

[A]

this podcast is brought to you by Nike.

[B]

Actually more like Puma.

[A]

Puma has nailed the likeness of shoes.

[B]

I was going to say. Yeah, they're the, they're the big cat now.

[A]

Yeah, they are. And you know, the R3 is just a lighter super shoe than everything else and it has changed the game. So how much are we seeing that? But back to the study. This is liberating for athletes that are running any pace. So, you know, if you're running a seven hour marathon, super shoes will make a bigger difference by raw time for you. Because if it is a set percentage, the more time you're out there, the more of a difference it's going to make. And so, yeah, every athlete should have some sort of advanced footwear technology shoe in quotes because it makes running so much more fun. It's so comfortable. It's so just joyous to be in.

[B]

And I feel like we should apply this study design to other interventions too, like, like bicarb. And it becomes a little bit more complicated with, you know, putting out raw power output and higher carb fueling. But some variation of higher carb fueling I think would be really interesting.

[A]

Some variation of higher carb fueling for what?

[B]

For, you know, athletes that are running slower. And it's like these things are. Because we get that question all the time too. Like, am I worthy of investing in bicarb? And it's like, yes, I see what you mean. As long as, like, you know, you don't have health issues, that would challenge having that amount of, like, sodium load in your diet. It's like, absolutely, yes. Bicarb. Super helpful.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, the reason we talk about all this stuff is on one hand, the science is super cool. As a study we're about to get to, we kind of will talk about. But on the other, if you just do these little things, anything that makes your performance improve by 1%, 2%, 3%, even if you don't care about results, will make running feel better.

[B]

Oh, it's so much more fun.

[A]

We'll make everything feel better. So even if you're not going faster or don't care about that, if running feels better and more transcendent, you'll enjoy it more. You'll be more active, you'll be healthier. You do all the things that go into, like, a fulfilling life. Whereas, you know, if running feels like shit all the time, it's gonna be so much harder to do. And I think sometimes if athletes go slow, they don't give themselves that, like, openness and understanding that you should. That's why we say everyone is an elite athlete, is because if you have that framework, then the whole sport gets so much more fun.

[B]

Except when you have to foam roll. I draw. I draw the boundaries there. We're about to get to that study in a minute.

[A]

But before that, another study. This one caused quite the stir. It's called long distance trail running. Induces inflammatory associated protein lipid and purine oxidation in red blood cells. But the reason we're talking about this is it went viral over various social media accounts and news stories, and it got picked up a lot of places. And whenever that happens, you're like, huh. I wonder how all these new news outlets covered this random study in some random journal. And it is a relatively random journal. This isn't sports medicine. I forget exactly what it was, but it was like.

[B]

I think it was red blood cells. Blood red cells or red blood cells.

[A]

Blood red cells would be a fun

[B]

name, I actually think. I legitimately think it's blood red cells in iron. Let me see.

[A]

Wait, there's no chance. Well.

[B]

Oh, it is, it is. Maybe there should there be a comma. Blood comma. Red cells and iron.

[A]

Blood red cells and iron. Huh, huh? And they have big old red, like, I don't know.

[B]

Those are blood cells.

[A]

Honestly, that Kind of looks like our toilet right now.

[B]

What? Look at that thing.

[A]

Look at that. You can even see the toilet bowl.

[B]

You can't see the toilet bowl.

[A]

It does. Red blood cell looks like a toilet bowl. Also, Megan's on her period.

[B]

That's my job to talk about that.

[A]

Okay, we can delete that.

[B]

You can totally leave that. I don't care.

[A]

I knew you wouldn't have a problem with it.

[B]

I know, but we can always edit anything. I think it's hilarious. But also, I'm healthy. Yay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Theory, period, party. Every 50 for the last 20 years, we got this going on.

[A]

But, you know, on that note, why does this appear everywhere at once when it's published? Last week and we have some insight into that, which I don't know if it's a thousand percent okay to share this, but I think it is because.

[B]

Oh, it's totally okay to share this.

[A]

I got an email to our somework allplaymail.com address, which I don't share anywhere. I think it might be on our website maybe, but I think the place where it was populated is in some sort of publicity email listservice where someone's like, oh, this is some work. I'll play, and threw it in there. And so we get lots of random emails, including people, you know, wanting to be on the podcast and stuff, which is fine. We just, like.

[B]

It's actually kind of interesting sometimes. I'm like, yeah, you know, we sometimes want to give us. Give us your argument for whatever it is. And I kind of. I've learned a lot of different, like, upcoming, like, you know, news things or

[A]

different, like, oh, Megan, you don't have to read who they're pitching to be on the podcast. It's always like, it's always written.

[B]

Yeah, written by AI.

[A]

It's always AI. And it's always saying, like, we heard you talk about Peebles and we thought that was very inspiring. Now, why don't you interview this doctor that specializes in urological health? How about not, though? I wish that doctor the best. I hope he enjoys buttholes.

[B]

He? Why is the he?

[A]

It's always a he.

[B]

It could be a she. It could be a she.

[A]

No, that. It's using these AI services.

[B]

The woman could use the AI. Come on, women.

[A]

Come on, women.

[B]

Put yourself out there more.

[A]

Hire these publicity firms to do useless work on your behalf. Maybe it's. Maybe it is useful. I don't know. I don't know how many podcasts you actually book from doing these sorts of things, but through that, like, email listserv, an email came in and it said this. A new study will publish on February 18. And it is blood red cells and iron which offers the greatest insight yet into under underlying bold. Ultra endurance running damages red blood cells and bold, adding to growing evidence that extreme forms of exercise may be harmful to overall health. Would you be interested in receiving the study under embargo? If so, are you allowed to read that?

[B]

Why not? I said he's no longer under embargo.

[A]

I don't sign anything. Yeah, I'm a lawyer. They. You gotta. You gotta get me signed to NDA if you're gonna send me an email through a marketing service. If this was addressed to David.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they knew anything about me or they cared.

[B]

And we are so careful with anything. When you read, like, Patreon emails or listener emails, we are so careful with every little detail. This is. Is different.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm just on a marketing listserv. I want to be off this. I try to get off. There's no way to get off. You can't unsubscribe. There's nowhere to unsubscribe.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like you have to have the right to unsubscribe everywhere. It's like a second amendment.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

We come full circle. Actually, this is really funny.

[A]

You know what I want to do? I want to get that pump action shotgun and shoot my computer.

[B]

Sometimes our neighborhood has this, like, neighborhood listserv. And a few weeks ago, there was like some beautiful, just like, messages going around that involved politics. And just like, you know, we're saddened by this news. We're holding candlelight vigils. And then there was like four people that were like, please unsubscribe me from this list. But there's like an unsubscribe button right there.

[A]

If you tell me Ultra endurance running damages red blood cells, it's like, please unsubscribe me from your list. And also, I have some thoughts about the second Amendment. Actually, I honestly do not have thoughts about the second Amendment. I want to be clear on that. I want to be very clear.

[B]

Clip this out.

[A]

I stay out of that. And I want everyone to just enjoy their lives. So. Yeah. So to finish, they can share additional details, help coordinate interviews with the lead author, et cetera. So is this problematic, is my question to you.

[B]

It's tricky. Like, I think, you know, being someone that has published things, that you publish them and they just go hang out in the back of journals and yeah,

[A]

they just go in they just disappear.

[B]

And this is like. Like, you know, for a lot of people. Like, fortunately, not for me. I got out of this world. That is your life's work. And, like, you want people to read it and you want people to have access to it. And I think it becomes very tricky, though, when you're hiring a marketing company on your behalf, because, like, they're not educated in the science and in how these messages get, like, displayed and cast out there. But at the same time, like, you want people to read your science. And so it's such a tricky, tricky place.

[A]

It's so hard because everything is marketing. And. And then that's a really weird thing to say, but as you're speaking, I'm thinking about that, like, coaching is marketing.

[B]

Our podcast is marketing.

[A]

Podcast is marketing. Athletics is marketing.

[B]

Are people is marketing.

[A]

Yeah, and serious. No, for real, for real, for real. Like, that is the way it works. And I think people are very uncomfortable with that, as am I when it comes to science. But if not, no one knows. Right. Like, everyone we know that has a platform of any type to talk about science.

[B]

Oh, you have to build that through

[A]

marketing is a marketing expert.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think sometime this is one thing that. That we faced when we came into coaching, you know, is I'd be called, like, a hobbyist and all this bullshit from people that were established in the field. And I'm like, well, your marketing is that you are a part of this big coaching conglomerate, and it is this, like, ultimate example. And athletes sign contracts and they have to, you know, do all this. It's like, it is all marketing game, and don't hate the player, hate the game. Like, I understand the game, but in science, like, if you think something is important, how else are you going to get it out? Yeah.

[B]

And that's why it's very tricky to me.

[A]

But the way it was pitched.

[B]

The way it was pitched, I disagree with.

[A]

Is from the marketing firm, I assume. And I disagree with that based on the findings.

[B]

Well, I feel like based on the findings of the study, it is taking it to an extreme that they did not find. And the challenge then is if this is the message that is going out to the media that is then displaying the study that is getting in the hands of the people that are not going to read every word of the study. That's where it becomes extremely difficult. But it's also the world of science we live in. Like, this is basically everything we read at this point.

[A]

Yeah. Kind of a weird reflection that unless something can, like, break through on TikTok. It really isn't going to be relevant in the broader world anymore.

[B]

TikTok.

[A]

Well, we don't have TikTok, but, yeah,

[B]

that's why I'm like. I'm like, my mind is baffled.

[A]

Yeah, a framework for it.

[B]

A framework for, like, what can be interesting on TikTok.

[A]

What. What is going. Like, virality determines effectiveness in message nowadays. Like, it's just the way the world works, unfortunately. Like, you know, an article in New York Times will get so much less traction, most likely than a really good Instagram reel or something.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

And partially that's cool because it democratizes things, but partially it's terrible because it incentivizes all of us to play that game. Like YouTube being a great example that people that study, like, YouTube video virality or just views over time find the most important thing is the thumbnail. That's why every YouTube video you see, even if you just watch pure science channels like we do, the only reason it ever comes into my feed is because the thumbnail does this, like, weird thing where it's like a face and making a funny face and pointing and

[B]

there's like, text, and it's like, yeah, there's a lot going on. It's why we go back and forth with Cody a lot about our thumbnails.

[A]

But if you don't do that.

[B]

We actually had a massive. You and I had a massive debate about font. It's like, when did I ever think I was going to debate? David, you're like, the person that could care least about font.

[A]

Who won?

[B]

You did. Mostly because I was scared of you.

[A]

Boom, boom.

[B]

Megan, you believed so passionately in your font that at some point I was just like, okay, bro, I don't care anymore. Also scared of me, dude. I mean, when you became. You were so passionate about your font, I was like, if Eva doesn't win this, I don't know what's going to happen. So, yeah, a little bit. Cody, too. Cody was just like, Cody and I were on the same font team against you, and at one point, Cody was like, it's two to one. And then, like, nothing ever happened. And I think both Cody and I were like, I think we just yield this argument. Just kidding.

[A]

Oh, God. No, no, no.

[B]

We might have to take that joke out.

[A]

I think we probably do. Okay, so we edited out a joke. So to the results. To the results of the study. Uh, basically, it's very simple. 23 athletes were tested before and after ultras. The MCC race, which is about a marathon and utmb, which is a hundred miles and long story short, it caused like damage in red blood cells after the races relative to before the races at that one point in time. And the damages were greater for utmb. Um, is there anything you want to say on the specific findings related to red blood cells or can we just leave?

[B]

There's a whole bunch of complicated findings. Basically what was happening is that red blood cells were working to rebuild their damaged cell membranes and they were using up vitamin B5, which is pantothionate, in the process. And basically they were doing that because there was a lot of stress, obviously.

[A]

Huge amounts.

[B]

Ran a huge race.

[A]

Huge amount of stress and interesting finding. I kind of like it. And they talk a lot about how this could have implications for storage of blood. So making stored blood for blood donation or whatever last longer, which is cool.

[B]

It can also have implications for inflammatory disease processes or transfusions and stored blood. Exactly. And I love actually when there's crossover between the extremes that we're putting our bodies through in ultras and how that applies to other medicine and even disease processes.

[A]

Yeah. And there was an article written in Science Daily that interviewed the author and it said this. Based on these data, we don't have guidance as to whether people should or should not participate in these types of events. What we can say is, is when they do that persistent stress is damaging to the most abundant cell in the body. So, okay, let's take a step back here. You measured red blood cells before and after in ultra, and you're saying that it causes damage. Sure, I get it. You know what else is damaged muscle cells?

[B]

Literally everything.

[A]

Like muscle fibers. It, you know, if you measured, imagine this was all changed and red blood cells were subbed in for muscle fibers. You're like, well, we measured you before this ultra and after the ultra and your muscle fibers were damaged and aging actually, like this is a bad thing. It's like. No, it's part of the adaptation process. If you measured athletes a year later and found damage to red blood cells, like red blood cells, you know, having a couple month lifespan. Like if you, if you found some damage, cool. But like, literally the process of stressing the body is the reason we have muscles. It's the reason we have, you know, high levels of hemoglobin at times or lower. It's the reason that your body adapts is from stress. So stress is not inherently a bad thing. Breakdown is not inherently a bad thing. What is, is if it exceeds the ability to repair long term, which can of course become a Bad thing in some, some instances and they didn't talk about that at all. It's not even a part of the equation. So maybe if this led to some interesting places in the future that would be cool. But right now, why is this pitched as damage? It's like it would almost be saying like your hydration status before this event was good, your hydration status after was bad. How are you ever going to recover? It's like, yeah, you're just going to give it time and have some water.

[B]

And ultras do wild things to the body. We should have actually and I'm sure they've read the literature from western states where after western states. There's actually been a lot of research done at western states because it's fascinating what we do to our bodies in 100 mile races. Finding things like, you know, CK creating kinase levels of like, I forget what the average was but it was somewhere 32,000. It was high. That's crazy. That's so far above normal. And like, you know, we could do that within every. We would look at, we could look at liver enzymes, we could look at kidney markers and they have. We could look at CK levels, we could look at red blood cells. Literally everything in the body is dam damaged and recovering after an ultra. And that is part of the process.

[A]

That's part of the process. So the question is long term health, who knows? This study doesn't address that whatsoever. Red blood cell wise. Wouldn't really make sense that this is like exceeding the body's adaptive response.

[B]

A lot of turnover in red blood

[A]

cells, a huge amount of turnover. And also like this is kind of what is made to happen in the body. Could it have long term impacts? Sure. But when you get a marketing email and what did the marketing email say? I'm going to scroll back up to that since I made Megan skip over a lot of the funny signs here. Alt, here's what they said. Ultra endurance running damages red blood cells. Yes. But they didn't. And then adding to growing evidence that extreme forms of exercise may be harmful

[B]

to overall health, which I feel like was definitely written by AI.

[A]

It doesn't have to be. I mean the article, the things that are written by A are so clearly written by A because they like pull from our.

[B]

Oh yes, yeah.

[A]

Damaging to overall health. Why, you know, would, would being sore in your biceps after doing bicep curls be damaging to your overall health?

[B]

Health?

[A]

No, actually it's probably a good thing for your overall health. So this doesn't address that whatsoever. And I think it Points to, we need to be skeptical about any science that immediately gains widespread traction by taking

[B]

a huge logical leap. And to me, that's a very large logical leap. And I think that's a tricky thing, is these scientific studies are often studying such small things. They're studying red blood cells and red blood cell membranes. These are the smallest things. And then making this like jump in a leap that isn't like warranted from it. Warranted or logical. And to me, or maybe it could be potentially logical, but it's not warranted. And that to me is where science becomes so tricky. And I think this is the world we live in. It's just like science taking these big leaps to take these scary conclusions. And you're like, wait a second, let's take a step back.

[A]

Yeah, but everything's like that.

[B]

So everything's like that.

[A]

Don't hate the player, hate.

[B]

The colon study was a lot like that colon study.

[A]

Oh, well, I'm getting a colonoscopy next week.

[B]

I know. That's why I was pitching this. I was like, do not put that on YouTube.

[A]

Do you think I should. Should not get a colonoscopy?

[B]

I actually do think you should get a colonoscopy because you've had blood in your stool and you've had a lot of GI issues.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I actually don't think you should put on YouTube though.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, we could debate this offline.

[A]

I wouldn't have to show it. Go in.

[B]

Are you gonna send Cody in with a. Have him be scrubbed up in the surgical room.

[A]

Have Cody be magic school bust straight down, get real small Cody, have him be peered right on the edge of the perineum. Just can't make that joke. We're theoretically employers.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I was going to make a taint joke. I shouldn't. No, no, I definitely should not. Are you going to do it on YouTube?

[A]

No, it's your YouTube too now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I can't do it if you don't want to.

[B]

Sorry. I'm the turd in the. Not in the punch. Roll in the. In the scope.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So you can generally ignore the implications of that study. For now though, we will keep you updated on future studies that might measure longer term impacts. That's what we need to see is like if you measure two or three month follow up, are we seeing damage that isn't being repaired? Because then that becomes an issue. Otherwise, like damage being repaired is kind of health. Like when we tell, you know, an 85 year old to do exercise, what we're saying is make sure you're stressing yourself adequately because, like, sedentary lifestyle causes other stresses that are not productive for the body.

[B]

So.

[A]

So we'll move on from there. Okay, final study on foam rolling. But before we do that, a fun message and question. Actually, some content on the Wahoo treadmill. So this is an ad for the Wahoo treadmill. Go find it in our show notes. Click on it. It's the best tool in the world. I've been doing every single run on the treadmill for now as I come back because it feels so comfortable and so fantastic at all paces.

[B]

I've dropped my workouts down now to 4% and so running faster than I was at my 8% workouts. And every time I do it, I'm like, I actually did not know a treadmill could be this smooth. Yeah, I mean, it's actually like, game changing. I don't think I want to do a workout right now outdoors. What has happened to me?

[A]

You don't have races on the treadmill, so we'll have a bridge at some point. But there use code, swap, swap, and you get like a $400 fan, which is fantastic for all of your uses indoors. And I unfortunately do not think there's going to be a sale anytime in the short term. So get it now. Like, if you've been on the fence, it is just the best tool we've ever had. Which brings us to a question. Can you give me a sample workout for LT1 versus LT2? So two different intensity zones. LT1 being like top end of zone 2, LT2 being like threshold. Those workouts on the treadmill Today, I did eight by five minutes in my LT2. So traditional threshold. But then. So you did six by five minutes over five minutes under LT1. Um, also, what are over unders, which is what the workout is called. Both are intervals. So the difference is just at what heart rate we are doing it. LT2 would be top end of zone 4 and LT1 workout should be at the top end of zone 2. Or does the format change when during the week? Should I do an LT1 versus LT2 workout?

[B]

Oh, I love it. I think this is coming from Maestra, because I did six. Did you also do. You did over unders too?

[A]

This was my first, like, intro to more intense.

[B]

True. Yeah. We're both doing over unders.

[A]

Both doing over unders.

[B]

Anytime we do something that we like, don't talk about. In the podcast on Strava, everyone's like,

[A]

whoa, yeah, what are you talking about?

[B]

What are you doing?

[A]

And the reason is when you're talking about something like LT1 over unders, you can do them. And it's not really perceptible in most workouts until you get extremely fit because LT1 is like top end zone 2. So we're saying almost all the time, athletes are straddling their top end zone 2, zone 3 area without thinking about it.

[B]

Well, in many ways, for me, it's actually approximating running outside. I actually started, I did this workout for the first day on a snow day, and I was thinking about running on Magnolia Road. When running uphill, you know, often would be an over. And then running just naturally for me, downhill would be an under. In terms of thinking about that zone two distinction. And I just wanted to mimic in outdoor run inside, plus have some variations. Sometimes it's nice to have some variation on the turtle.

[A]

And that's why you see these a lot in cycling, because for cycling, Zone 3 power. So going above LT1 feels quite hard. Um, whereas in running, going above top end zone 2 is not that hard for most athletes. And you will see LT1 over unders for very, very advanced athletes. Um, but even then, it's just not that common. Since running is so much more stressful, you don't need to do it that much. If you're on the treadmill, it's great because it's. It is a way to just alter effort slightly. Um, because it's so controlled, it makes

[B]

the time go by faster. Great.

[A]

Meanwhile, when we talk about treadmill workouts, we're talking about LT2, where you're pushing a little bit. So like Megan's workout that she put on, and even then, we don't really care about the LT2 distinction. At the end of that workout, your lactate's gonna be higher than LT2. The body doesn't work like that. Just have fun around that, like, sustainable effort level that LT2 prescribes. Um, but not like worrying about it too much.

[B]

I think this gets to a place where, like, sometimes there's all this different terminology. It can be so confusing in terms of LT1, LT2 heart rate zones. And at the end of the day, a lot of this just comes down to feel and mixing it up. And for me, it's like, over unders are a great way to make the time go by a little bit faster and to mix up the stimuli on the treadmill.

[A]

And it's aerobic workout, so you could do a hard workout the next day after LT1 over Unders for a runner or Even a cyclist. But for an LT2 workout, you need a recovery day. So actually, if you want on Patreon, there's right at the top of that new encyclopedia, there's everything you need to know about heart rate zones. That gets into all the details here of this terminology. Um, but if you're looking for a treadmill, go get the wahoo. That's two ads in one. Let's move on. Um, now we're gonna talk about the foam rolling study in cyclists. This also confirms my suspicions.

[B]

Megan, I'm curious to see your takeaways from this. Yeah, what are your suspicions?

[A]

That I fucking love foam rolling and I wish I did it.

[B]

See, this article was more conclus inconclusive to me.

[A]

What, what I'm gonna send before you

[B]

get to the findings, I'm gonna send

[A]

emails to a thousand people versus via marketing to tell them all to foam roll.

[B]

Okay, let's do all like we do font.

[A]

Okay. It's called Chronic self myofascial release.

[B]

We'll start there. You totally want to do chronic self myofascial release for six months.

[A]

How many minutes per day?

[B]

30 to 45.

[A]

30 to 45? Yeah. Yeah, it sounds fun.

[B]

I think it was either 30 to 45 or 20 to 30, but either way that's a lot.

[A]

Yeah, either way, you're chafing. Effects on cardiorespiratory capacity, metabolism and mechanical power hour 32 recreational cyclists did this study for six months, which is really rigorous for this sort of science. I wish the blood study had a six month follow up. Uh, the intervention group did Blackwell foam rolling. I imagine that's a brand of foam roller immediately after training sessions. And do you know any details on the type of foam rolling?

[B]

And they did, it's pretty rigorous foam rolling. So they actually taught them how to do this and they had them doing 20 reps at 60 to a hundred seconds per set, um, and doing it all over the body. And so it was taking quite a bit long amount of time. And then this was done as a randomized control trial on rct, which is rigorous. The tricky thing about that though, is you can't blind them because one group is sitting on this mat, foam rolling, and there's no way to get like some kind of placebo for foam rolling and be blinded about that.

[A]

Imagine you're blind him if you poked him in the eyes really hard. So I always want to make that joke every time. And usually this study is a little more serious, so I can't talk about that. Okay, so the findings were really interesting, actually. So on self myofascial release, massage, foam rolling, things like that, there's a little bit of contrary information out there. So on one hand a lot of people say, oh, you actually don't want to do too much of this because it might diminish adaptations. But on the other hand, if you go to a cycling training camp or whatever, every single one of those athletes is getting a massage every night. Um, if you ever watch like a Tour de France documentary or whatever, oh,

[B]

it looks so great.

[A]

You're going to see Jonas Vindigo's upper thigh a lot.

[B]

They do that a lot. They have them like positioned in towels in the hotel room. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

If you're a big fan of cycling, those are the parts that you watch several times. Um, but you know, we're seeing this real world practice that might vary a little bit from how some people like to talk about it, that are physiologists also.

[B]

There's variation too, in the sense that there's some thought process that like recreational athletes respond better to this because elite athletes already have recovery kinetics that are optimized. And so adding like additional myofascial interventions on top of that might only be like, very marginally beneficial.

[A]

I'm smelling some of that. I'm getting crop dusted with bullshit right now. I don't think that. I don't think that. I think if it applies to athletes, it'll apply across the board because elite athletes are not optimized. Anybody who knows elite athletes knows they are not optimized.

[B]

Okay, that's a theory in the science. It's not my theory. It's the theory in the science.

[A]

You said it though.

[B]

I did say it.

[A]

You said it. You're accountable.

[B]

Like, this is David Scott, Michael Megan Roach.

[A]

Okay, so the results here, there were significant improvements in metabolic kinetics evidenced by a reduced lactate slow slope for the foam rolling athletes. And foam rolling yielded a statistically significant positive effect on relative mechanical performance at both LT1 and LT2. Um, so very interesting there. We're seeing some benefit perhaps from foam rolling, not just in how athletes feel, but how they perform. Not magical or anything, uh, but could be evidence that it improves mechanical, like, output just a little bit.

[B]

And I do think when you combine that with the real world and you think about all the Olympics that are there, especially track athletes that are there on the track, track rolling, it's relevant. That being said, there was a lot of different things and if you read the limitations study of this paper, this paper was Actually quite well written. The limitations study. Part of the study was long and there were a lot of limitations.

[A]

The key is to be bad at writing limitation sections.

[B]

If we're being honest, a woman totally wrote this. She's like, here's every limitation I see in this paper.

[A]

A guy writes it.

[B]

It's just, I'm perfect now. I'm going to put this through AI and send it to your. Yeah, your email. Be a marketing company.

[A]

Do you have any big thoughts on the limitations?

[B]

I was going to go into it. It's a little technically complicated.

[A]

I saw a lot of numbers.

[B]

Basically, the study was underpowered. There. There's a direct quote, as our analysis showed. However, the conclusions that can be drawn from our empirical results are to some degree inconclusive, which reflects the broader inconsistencies in scholarly literature.

[A]

Yeah, and maybe that does reflect that it's individually dependent more than. There's some, like, universal response. But here's a vote for just some self myofascial release every day if you can. You know, don't tell your parents I told you to do that.

[B]

Point to the muscle, but.

[A]

So foam rolling is good, but it's really hard to be consistent with, I find, because it's kind of hard to get on the ground and move around. It's funny that, like, training isn't hard, but, like, doing that is difficult to be consistent with.

[B]

I feel like it's the most difficult part of training. Like heat training to me. Going to sit in the hot tub for 30 to 45 minutes, I'm like, oh, hell yeah. Whereas being on the ground and rolling in a foam roller, part of me is just like, I don't want to do that same.

[A]

Which is why I like the roll recovery R8. You can find these at the feet. They're. They clamp onto your legs and it's just an easy way. You can just do it while watching tv.

[B]

Or a massage gun is even easier.

[A]

Massage gun. I don't know. I would say roll recovery R8's easier and more effective.

[B]

You think so? And more effective.

[A]

It's true. Yeah.

[B]

Like, where are you. Where, where are you pulling this from?

[A]

Where I'm pulling it from is that we lost the charger for our massage gun. So I'm like, massage guns no longer work that way. I don't have to buy another one.

[B]

We no longer need their existence.

[A]

But I, I do think it helps with. I mean, the study on massage I've written. Science article that's on Patreon. I need to put it in the Encyclopedia. It's not there. So now there's 67 articles. Um, the study on massage is quite good for how athletes feel and perform in running, and so some amount of it is probably good. You don't need a ton, and it could just be, you know, using your hands in the hot tub. Like, it's a little awkward, but Megan sees me do that all the time. You know, that's, like, the main place I do it.

[B]

Well, you're listening. Usually listening to podcasts, and so you're like. Like, smiling and laughing. That's one of my favorite things about you, actually, is, like, you're so engaged in whatever you're listening in to that, like, you'll laugh out loud a ton. But then you're just there smiling and laughing and just, like, rubbing yourself while I'm looking from the window inside, I'm like, what's he doing out there?

[A]

What podcast would be most funny for me to be laughing at like that?

[B]

I was gonna make whatever joke you were gonna make. Oh, I'm laughing so hard on him. It was good.

[A]

Okay, let's get on to question and answer. I think we have nothing to talk about before we get there, so let's try to do as many as we can.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

I got called out by a listener on Patreon that I say rapid fire all the time.

[B]

Oh, and you never actually. But that's my. One of my favorite parts of you. You're like, we're gonna rapid fire. Then you're like, here's eight explanations and four jokes for this rapid fire.

[A]

First question, moving up to ultras. So I guess if you are a roadrunner who listens to swap long enough, you eventually decide you want to try an ultra. And while I realize there's probably no one size fits all answer to this question, what kind of training and or racing milestones or guideposts would you suggest to someone who wants to move up to an ultra distance? Is it an X amount of marathons at Y time? Or is it more about training, volume and ability to recover? Or is it all the above, et cetera?

[B]

This is exciting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel like we're seeing a lot of roadrunners make the leap into ultras and trail running. And it makes me excited.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think biggest thing to me to start with if this is a trail marathon, is just getting comfortable spending time on trails. Like that includes verts, it include vert, it includes downhills, it includes switchbacks, rocks, technical terrain, and it depends on the style of race that you're looking for. But just like go enjoy spending time on trails and having fun running on different kinds of trails. Some that are easy, some that are hard, you know, some that have vert on them and be more comfortable with that.

[A]

Can I give a simpler answer? What you're ready for it?

[B]

Yeah. Well, I mean if a race has

[A]

12,000ft of race, this is a roadrunner doing road marathons. You know, road marathons are harder than TR ultras.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

I think that's pretty.

[B]

Just prepare your legs for that downhill. That's what I'm getting at.

[A]

In ultras you can just go walk for a long time. And you can do that in road marathons too.

[B]

Oh yeah. But if this is a road marathoner that's at the top level, they're not going to go like, this isn't.

[A]

I, I don't know. I, I mean I didn't look up who this person was, but it wasn't

[B]

like whoever it is is.

[A]

This isn't Galen Rob.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think whoever it is is going to want to do well.

[A]

Oh yeah, no elite athlete for sure. But I think sometimes people get so scared by the distance and don't realize that you could go do an ultra on almost any day the of training. Um, all you have to do is take off the self limitations of, oh, this is impossible. And so if you're out there and you're curious, just sign up and go do something crazy.

[B]

Well, just there's Rabdo.

[A]

They do road marathons. They're not doing it this weekend.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Obviously they'll listen to all their other

[B]

advice like you should absolutely do version training before you're gonna go.

[A]

Yeah, you have to do some seat downhills for sure.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's what, that's all I was saying. And I'm like, are you disagreeing with me?

[A]

No, I get it, I get it. Um, but you know, I think the cool thing about ultras is it feels incomprehensible even having done them now. So when I stepped it to a hundred miles, like I think I wasn't ready. Um, but what I was able to do is just stay in the mile I was in and not think about it all at once. For whatever reason I was able to get to that place. And I think that's all you need to do is if you think about going 30 miles, it's ridiculous and obscene for just about everybody. Um, if you just go do it and just keep moving, you find that you do it in a certain amount of time. And it's not that big of a deal for you.

[B]

Oh. Even once you've done it, it's still obscene. Like, thinking about running like 50 miles. Sometimes when I'm eight miles into a

[A]

run, I'm just like, how, how is it even possible?

[B]

Why?

[A]

Adding one mile on at the end of a normal run is like, oh, it's impossible. Can't do it. So yeah, if you're asking this question, you've done road marathons, you're ready. But even if you haven't done road marathons, if you're running consistently, like five times a week and occasionally getting up to 10 miles, you're ready for an ultra. Um, just make sure you do some downhill so Megan doesn't sue me.

[B]

Oh my God. You would send someone to go do a hundred k off of 10 miles of long runs?

[A]

No, Megan, they're training for it. The point is they're gonna train for it. They're gonna do something scary, sign up for something scary so that they do the training.

[B]

Oh, yes, you're ready to do the training.

[A]

We don't have athletes go farther than 20 miles in training very often. Right. So, like, even if you're doing a hundred K, it doesn't need to look much different than road marathon training.

[B]

True. Fair.

[A]

Boom, boom, boom.

[B]

Just add in Bert, please.

[A]

I don't know why I'm being confrontational right now.

[B]

I know, I'm like, jesus, did I say something about that?

[A]

Yes, you said a joke that we

[B]

had to take out. It was a really good joke.

[A]

It was a really good joke. But that's making me confrontational right now.

[B]

Is that what it is?

[A]

Okay, next question. On the most recent episode, you mentioned your favorite shake place. This is Megan with 40 plus favorites for milkshakes. Any self respected North Carolinian knows exactly where you're talking about. Which begs the question, if you were fueling an ultra by only eating cookout trays, what would you get?

[B]

Oh, cookout. That was back in our North Carolina days. It was the best.

[A]

Did you do cookout trays?

[B]

No, I only did the milkshakes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I assume cookout trays are just like.

[B]

It's probably like a combo of like, it's a burger fry, like, combo place. I think I did, I did some of those, but I was particularly going for the milkshakes.

[A]

Yeah, I would go burger and tater tots basically anywhere like this.

[B]

Yeah, tater tots are good.

[A]

I feel like tater tots are underrated somehow. I think a lot of people move on from tater tots after elementary school and we shouldn't.

[B]

Yeah. Why do we? That's a good question.

[A]

It's sad. Yeah, it's a tragedy. And when I'm president, there will be tater tots in every home. Do you remember like middle school class representation?

[B]

You were actually high school class president.

[A]

I was.

[B]

We were talking about this last night. Yeah, you were telling me things you were doing. I was like, actually you're supposed to organize your 20 high school reunion. And you're like, no way.

[A]

Hey man, I'm peeing into a bowl. What do you expect?

[B]

Like when I was that age, I didn't Even think about 20 years down the road.

[A]

I didn't even do a single class reunion organizing. I hope they're having them. I'm not sure, but yeah. So I big message here is go get tater tots tonight.

[B]

Oh, tater tots are delicious.

[A]

So good in here. In Boulder we have bird call. Bird call. Tater tots are just magical. They're so, so good.

[B]

We go to bird call a lot actually. Do you remember our second date? We went to cookout.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

We got milkshakes. And then we were driving around North Carolina and we're like, we want to go find somewhere beautiful to eat these milkshakes. And we stumbled upon a Neechee Speedway

[A]

which was totally random.

[B]

And it's this old abandoned speedway in

[A]

North Carolina that in Cars three I believe is partially based on Akinichi Speedway where they go to an old abandoned track track to learn how to like whatever, drive fast.

[B]

And it was our second date so we went to the speedway but we found there's like a creek that's around the perimeter and we just went creaking for like three hours and drank these milkshakes. And that's when I knew.

[A]

That's when you knew.

[B]

You took me creaking.

[A]

Oh, I knew very first night I the it's really interesting to reflect because at the end of the YouTube video you laugh for like 30 seconds. Um, it's like an outtake at the very end. And I shared this on Instagram too. And I remember the first time I heard your laugh and I'm like, oh, I'm going to be chasing that for the rest of my life if I can. And what I said on Instagram is choose the non creepy interval of your like it's your option. It doesn't have to be the first night. But yeah, it's so great to hear it on the podcast.

[B]

Oh, that means a lot.

[A]

Yeah. Please don't make jokes about me anymore ever. Next question on training balance. Another question for you on balancing different dreams and goals. I have so many things that are interest me and I want to do epically in the realm of sport. The list contains eventually trying to break 2:10 in the marathon run ultra marathons, complete an ironman and some other goals sprinkled between them. I am in my early 20s and I know I'm young, but how do you balance wanting to train for everything. And it worries me that changing up my event so much I may never reach my potential in a single discipline. Um, yeah, I don't want to read the rest therapies. I might be identifying the rest.

[B]

Came about being interested in a particular duathlon that's coming up and so that is exciting. I think to me being this young, aerobic training is aerobic training and I think you can develop the aerobic engine in so many different ways which is exciting. I do think trails are and ultras are in a place that you really do have to commit to it to be at the very top level. But I think like wait, what trails

[A]

and ultras are you don't you have to commit to trails and ultras? You can't do road marathons.

[B]

Oh no, no. You can definitely do that. But I think like, I think it would be hard actually to train at the top level for ironman and trails at the same time.

[A]

It'd be hard to train it for ironman and road marathoning. But trails are not actually developed that much. Don't you think?

[B]

Well, do we have anyone that's competing currently in there's we have triathletes and ironman. You're a cyclist coming in from. No, but I'm not competing in cyclists.

[A]

But you'd be an amazing competition cyc.

[B]

But I also haven't developed my power to do that.

[A]

But you'd be an amazing competition cyclist right now. So I, I mean I think trails are nowhere near developed enough to have to worry about specialization.

[B]

Well, I mean I just think it would be really hard to train for an ironman at the top level and train for an ultra at the top level. Like we don't have any examples of anyone doing that in trail trails.

[A]

It's hard to train for an ironman

[B]

at the top level and do anything in life. That's what I'm saying is like I think, I think they could train for duathlon and trails at the same time and like maximize their potential in both. Do I think they could train for to ironman at their full Potential and trails at their full potential. Probably not.

[A]

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with the trail part of the equation. I think the trail part of the equation's pretty easy. It's just whoever's fastest as we talk about, like, and then has the trail ability. The road marathoning sub 210 marathon, yes, that will take some level of specialization where you can cross train, but it is a purely secondary thing. Um, because no one is running a 2:10 marathon without focus. I mean, even Alex Yee, you know, who ran so fast in his most recent marathon, focused on running. And yes, he did cross training, but like, he wasn't ready for his peak triathlon fitness. And he's also the best ever, you know, and he was a great runner to begin with. So yeah, just have fun with aerobic training is my vote. Um, and don't, don't. But at the same time, don't jump from lily pad to lily pad and do all this specific training and not like have some sort of long term vision for yourself. Because I think the worry for me is not the training end of it or the adaptation part of it. It's the lack of a long term vision for yourself because those types of athletes often find, okay, now I'm going to go do an ultra bike. And they just, they go from thing to thing so much that they end up undershooting their potential altogether.

[B]

That's kind of exactly where I was going. And I think the most challenging lily pad in my mind is the Ironman. And I think like, you know, I would focus maybe on like, I think

[A]

you're getting really hung up on the Ironman. They say complete in Ironman.

[B]

Yeah, I'm like, I want you to send it in that iron man you

[A]

want to win Kona, which I get when they say 2:10 marathon.

[B]

But I'm like, you're at that. I mean, you know, if you're a 210 marathoner, you're at the level of excelling very well within Ironman.

[A]

So true. Okay, next question here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Dude, you're spicy. I don't know if I want to beat you anymore. Maybe I'm being spicy. Maybe that's my bias.

[A]

I think that's what it is.

[B]

I'm like, bye, Felicia.

[A]

I think you're coming in with slightly more controversial takes sometimes. And I'm like, I actually disagree. But I think the next one we'll meet in the middle on because this one is a serious question. Hi, David and Megan. Thank you for bringing a bit of training Philosophy, grounded in science, but also not taking yourselves too seriously. It's a highlight of my week. I've recently had an immeasurable loss in my life. Life that led to me taking time away from running. I am completely deconditioned. How would you advise one of your runners struggling with deep grief, that wants to get back to running, but also finds the thought of it so daunting and overwhelming that they can't even put on the shoes to try?

[B]

Well, sending so much love, like, that's a really, really hard thing to deal with. We have listeners and athletes that have been in these places and, like, it can take a while actually, to, like, work through that. And then I think it can come up too. Like, you know, you feel like you've worked through the bulk of it, and then it can hit suddenly at unexpected times. I think sometimes what I've seen is not putting the pressure on yourself. So going out and starting in a walk and just going for a walk in someplace beautiful. And then to me, I find there's a lot less tension in my body on downhills. And just go out for a walk and let yourself. If you feel good without heart rate, without a ton of data on it, maybe Strava's fine because you're enjoying nature, but just let yourself run gently on the downhills. And to me, that's where it's easier to just, like, let gravity be your friend a little bit and, like, enjoy it.

[A]

Yeah. And try to view it as almost a manifestation of what you want to see in yourself. Because, like, the hard part is when you don't see it in yourself. Like, when there's grief or loss and the light is very hard to discern. Right. Like, there's, you know that there's light and it's gonna get better. Like, that's what the main thing to remember. It's gonna get better. But, like, you can't see it. Um, how then do you ever get to the point of seeing it? And, yes, time is part of that, but also it's like, okay, you set that intention and view the time that you're spending out there as a chance to practice it. And so, you know, silliness is such a strange goal when you're in grief, but trying to get yourself out there. And this is the time when you can be a little bit silly. So put your arms out when you're running on the downhill and make an airplane noise. You know, yell woohoo in the forest or scream in the forest as loud as you can. View it as A way to externalize some of these emotions that you've been internalizing because of the difficulty of it all. Listen to silly music. Like the Swap Ultimate Swap Playlist is a great option like, that is designed for this type of thing. Or silly podcasts.

[B]

That's exactly where I was going. Get something in your ears that's a little bit distracting. Sometimes I feel like running is great for processing, but sometimes I feel like if you do all your processing while running, it just becomes a burden. And give yourself that gift of something that's distracting and fun and joyful or just different in your ears. It, like, takes you outside of your

[A]

head, and just the physical act gives you an opportunity to bring a different vibe into your world that will feel so weird and forced, and you might hate yourself for a second while you do it. Like, you know, do a little spin in a little circle. Yeah, seriously, like, you know, do, like, when you're listening to a song, like, when you're in grief, you can identify with music in ways that you might never at other times, like, listen to. I don't know. It's a Great Day to Be Alive by Travis Tritt.

[B]

Oh, that's a great song.

[A]

Yeah, you know, like a song from our old North Carolina days. And when he howls at the moon, howl at the moon with him. And try to let running and athletics be an outlet that you might not be able to share in other places, and then maybe you can bring it into your normal life just a little bit. But that being said, grief will travel its own path, and there's not much you can do. Um, also, you know, talk to an expert. Um, we love, obviously, therapy. Uh, Sarah Elkins, a therapist who helped me so much and still is helping me. She has spots. I think. So, hey, go check out Therapy by Sarah. Um, and just talking to someone really helps with this sort of thing. Like, don't go through this process alone. Um, and, you know, you don't even feel the obligation to, quote, unquote, get. Get, like, better, you know, or to get through it.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, you know, this. These things sometimes come up at, like, random and unexpected times, and I think, like, be okay with that. Like, that's part of the processing experience, and part of just being human is like, you'll be out there on a run, and you're like, think about something that happened 10 weeks ago, even if it's not a trauma. And you're just like, where's my brain going?

[A]

Yeah, but like Megan said, just moving outside is a step right? Five minutes counts. Give yourself that grace and you know, we're here as friends in the process,

[B]

I think unplug, like, ideally, especially if you're deconditioned, like, don't strap a heart rate monitor on it because that information is just not helpful. Sometimes even like if I have a stressful thought, I notice my heart heartbeat going up like 8 to 10 beats per minute, maybe 5 to 8, which is like a lot in the grand scheme of things. And like sometimes having that physical data like associated with that makes me just be like, oh, that, that feels weird. And that's a time I'm just like, turn your hurry monitor off.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But we're just so proud of you for this process. And one day at a time, right? Like you. It's not even about having good days. It's about just trying to have, you know, a little bit better like, like moments within those days and that your joy is valid even if, like, the world does feel dark around you. So we love you. You got this. Also,

[B]

we've done a lot of howling at the moon.

[A]

Yeah, we have in our lives.

[B]

It's kind of fun actually.

[A]

Yeah, you got to.

[B]

We taught Leo how to do it too. He's. He's so cute when he does it.

[A]

Um, all right, we should answer one more question as like after that, just to make sure we don't go straight into the John G ad.

[B]

Yeah, actually, usually we've been going to the John for. From the like, like crazy things into the John ad.

[A]

So are there any here that you wanted to do? Um. Ooh, we have so many good ones.

[B]

We have so many good questions.

[A]

All right, here. Here's a question I wanted to address. I am a distance runner from another country focusing on the half marathon distance. I've had. I don't wanna say that that could be.

[B]

Oh, that sounds like they had.

[A]

They've had like over training type issues

[B]

or they've been tired, AKA needing iron infusions.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, perfect. That's not identifying, I guess so many

[B]

runners that need iron infusion.

[A]

Listening to this week's podcast on long runs, I'm starting to think that I need to take some big changes to my training if I want to get back to my full fitness and racing. Well, in my country, the common distance running program is a Tuesday track workout, Thursday threshold Saturday workout, and Wednesday and Sunday long runs around 2 to 2.5 hours.

[B]

Holy shit. Holy shit. Not only is that like sentence a mouthful, that training is a mouthful.

[A]

That's a lot for me. My total weekly Mileage is quite high, which is common for women around my ability here. Is this completely insane? Do I need to be working this hard to get back to full fitness? Is this maybe contributing to the glow iron? And most importantly, how do you know when it's time to leave a coach in training group that you love but might not be best for you?

[B]

This is tricky. I would say at the outset, like, that is a lot of training. That's a lot of intensity, a lot of training. High mileage, which. High mileage can be great. That training structure theoretically could be great. But I feel like the challenge is like you're seeing, like, you know, you give a bunch of athletes that training structure and a few might excel because. Because they're probably genetic freaks at handling that type of volume. Potentially could excel on any kind of, you know, structure because they're also freaks. And so I feel like it's really hard when you're in a training group because, like, some athletes might be excelling on that, but the human body, that's a lot, a lot of volume.

[A]

That's your diplomatic response. Be undiplomatic.

[B]

Yeah, get out of there.

[A]

Get out of there.

[B]

Get the fuck out of there.

[A]

Um, yeah. So that is not just too much. It's too much beyond all reasonable comprehension. Unless you do just like, unless there's an athlete out there that simply has exhausted every other option for adaptation because you're oversaturating intensity pathways way too much. So I'm not worried about the volume. Uh, their volume was what, like 80ish miles per week? You can go higher on like, volume doesn't scare me. Easy training for a very serious athlete that's going very fast. Like, this athlete does not scare me. Um, to a point. You know, like, obviously you can overdo it if you. And not be able to fuel the training or just break yourself down. And that would cause iron issues. Issues. But what scares me is this work athlete is saying, Tuesday workout, Thursday workout, Saturday workout. Even if that was just Tuesday, Thursday. Plus the long run, I would say too much. Um, because the long run is the stress. And if you're looking at three stresses per week, the body will really struggle to adapt to that. Unless you are a freakish adapter. And the problem with these types of training systems is they are being interpolated down from the outliers. It almost always is a male athlete. It is almost always a freak athlete that's been a freak since they were a kid. Kid that is chosen specifically because they adapt like crazy. And then these training systems Are applied to everybody. Uh, and then often, if you follow even the freak, the freak has a short career because these types of systems just crush an athlete. Whereas the development comes from the aerobic system. Um, and the aerobic system does take a lot to be saturated. The top end does not take that much. So, like, when you're doing this many workouts, you are beating yourself into submission for no additional benefit. And probably what happens to this athlete. Athlete, which is major decrement.

[B]

And what is probably happening is their chronic low iron issues are probably related to the endocrine system, which is probably having a hard time responding and being optimized in this kind of training environment, thus causing the chronic low iron. And I think the tricky thing about iron infusions is you can kind of patch that up, but you really need to figure out, like, the underlying reason as to why that's happening within the body. And I think the tricky thing is if you stay in a system like this too long, it could lead to much longer. Like, you're digging, like, a big, big, big recovery hole that is then harder to get out of.

[A]

And you're just gonna be less fresh for your workouts. You' to be less adapting less to them. And it's kind of like, you know, a positive feedback cycle to hell as an athlete.

[B]

Well, the tricky thing is, like, you might respond to it for the first few weeks, and then it's like. Or even years or even years. But then all of a sudden, it's like, what happens when that becomes too much and, you know, the body that can have a very, like, short fuse.

[A]

And I'm just confused about what coaches like this see in actual, like, molecular adaptation that necessitates this sort of stimulus.

[B]

Well, they're probably not thinking about molecular adaptation. Yeah, it's probably like, you're probably just going down from like. Like, oh, here is what this coach taught me. Or here's what, like, this track club has been doing historically for all these years. And yes, some of these athletes have responded to it, but, like, I mean, I'm sure they're probably not grounding it in health.

[A]

And you could probably trans, you know, or find the origin point of this all the way in the 1960s.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And then fast forward forward and like, chart the evolution of. Oh, you know, science really never came in here because, like, the science is not saying to do this because, you know, if you have essentially two different ways for mitochondrial biogenesis, this the aerobic part of it, you know, it takes a ton of. You can do a Lot of work in there. And that's why, you know, cyclists can do so much, runners need to do less. But still, you know, you can do a substantial amount. The intensity end of the spectrum. Like, when they do studies on it, it gets saturated so fast. Like, so much faster than you even think. Hence, like Ana's training or another example. So, like, Jess McLean is the prototypical swap example of, you know, she's trying to be one of the greatest in the world. We wouldn't say that to each other, but, like, that's clearly the goal that we're. We're aiming for, for here, where she can run, you know, two 17 to 18 marathons. And what she's doing is on Wednesday there's a serious workout and on Saturday there's a long run that often has intensity, but not always. And everything else is easy. And, and there's some strides in there too. But, like, that is so much easier than this type of system. Um, but it allows us to adapt long term. And I think, especially for female athletes, this is almost. Well, actually, I'm not gonna use the term word I was gonna say, but this is scary.

[B]

I would say it is scary. And it can be tricky to leave. Like, I think that's the hardest thing is oftentimes these, like, training groups feel a lot like a college team where, like, this is your friends. These are the culture. Maybe you even live with this training group. And I think sometimes that's the trickiest thing is, like, once you're in there, it's like, how do you get out in a way that feels meaningful to you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And sometimes you just have to make that leap and go for it and trust and listen to that. I mean, I think this person, even in how they wrote the question, understands that getting out is probably the right idea.

[A]

Is this completely insane?

[B]

Like, is this completely insane? Like, you wouldn't say that in a place where you're like, oh, I like, you know, really trust my training. This is going great. And so, like, to me, there's like, inclinations and how that was worded too.

[A]

Absolutely. And the low iron, chronically low iron, yes. That can be over training. It can also be under fueling. So pay attention there. We've talked about that before. Chronically low ferritin is associated with low energy availability. So if you can't get your iron up even with other interventions, especially if this has been a long term problem for an athlete, think about it, you know, like, have that hard conversation with yourself and with your loved ones, like, about your fueling Processes just because it's a clue that you sometimes see. And it's easy to ignore or to say that, oh, it's genetic context. It's like, yeah, it could be. It is for some people, but for a lot it's a fueling issue. Much like thyroid and fueling can be connected. And often it gets diagnosed as a genetic issue, but then. Then, you know, later on, the athlete is like, oh, my gosh, I wish I just understood the fueling context of this, too.

[B]

And I think we're starting to have those conversations now. And I wish that every athlete that went in for an iron infusion had some sort of workup or discussion for energy availability, but that's not always how it happens.

[A]

And infusions are great. We're not saying they're not great.

[B]

Oh, yeah, they can be very helpful

[A]

for some athletes, but, you know, but they also need to be, like, applied with the broader health context in mind afterward. Like, you don't want to use them to patch over problems because then it might just help you, like, ignore them, essentially. So. But that might not be this athlete. That's just a. A broader screed that I always do. Okay, you want to get on the listener corner?

[B]

Let's do it. But first, John G. Boom. I know we're going to. This feels like a good roll into Janji. Yeah, I love it.

[A]

What are you promoting this week?

[B]

Uh, the tights. They are so good. The 70th Trail Tights. I have been wearing them, like, often just because it's been. Usually I. I alternate between the fleece tight and the 78 trail tight. And they have so many posts I pockets. It's great.

[A]

They're in the YouTube video. Gosh, they look so good in the YouTube video. Just seeing how much you stuff down there.

[B]

He made a squirrel joke.

[A]

I did.

[B]

I did a little butt shake.

[A]

What was. Your shorts.

[B]

The shorts are actually the trail short.

[A]

The trail short.

[B]

I've been calling them the page short, but it turns out they have different pocket structure.

[A]

Very similar, but go get the trail short. If you're looking for the perfect option to carry stuff, that's what you've been using with me a lot. Right. When you're carrying my. At races.

[B]

Yeah. I have so many different things. It's kind of cool because of the pocket structure.

[A]

You can.

[B]

Can see what's in the side of the shorts. And I'm like, here's modules, here's my

[A]

David's Tylenol, and then the Atlas Pant for me. I love, love, love and Also the thermal runner jacket. Amazing. So go to john.g.comjn ji.com sign up for something there. What do you do? You sign up for something for their John Collective. That's what you do.

[B]

You get 15% off.

[A]

Yeah. Boom. And just a really great company that's helping people. They're doing grants this year each month to people that need it. So. So just a company that you really should feel good about supporting. So go to John. And now on the listener corner. This is a long one. Should I read this?

[B]

I think you should. Are you okay? Are you gonna read the whole thing?

[A]

I don't know. We'll see.

[B]

Go for it.

[A]

I'll see. I just want to send a quick note to say how much I've enjoyed following your journey. Your energy, passion and kindness are incredibly refreshing in today's media climate. Each week I look forward to the positivity and inspiration from you and Megan on the SWAT podcast, along with the thoughtful conversations about running and learning life. I first heard you on Rich Rolls podcast, and since finding Swap, I've gone from a casual runner and occasional sprint triathlon participant to completing two half Ironmans and two 50k Ultras. Hell yeah. With my sight set on longer events. Thank you for being such a powerful source of inspiration. On a recent run, I found myself reflecting on your 2025 Western States race. That's one of those things that you shouldn't reflect on if you want to have some silly times. I knew the outcome wasn't what you hoped for. And while a winter podium would have brought recognition and opportunity, opportunity. I'm not sure it would have been more meaningful to your community. So many of us hesitate to chase big goals because we're afraid to fail. Your experience showed that real growth comes from the pursuit itself and the way you handle adversity. Seeing Megan, director Cody, and your family still by your side when you fell short of your own expectations was a powerful reminder that failure doesn't take away from what matters most. It gives the rest of us permission to take our own chances, knowing that even if we come up short, we'll gain from the journey and still have the support of people we love. Love. We were all cheering for a huge result, and I'm sure there are many ahead. But the honesty, sportsmanship, love, and grace you showed made your story more relatable and impactful than any podium finish could have. Thank you for encouraging us to take risks and reminding us that it's okay to miss our own lofty goals. Keep being unapologetically yourself Anything less would be a disservice to everyone you inspire. P.S. great foresight. Oh, no. Should I should read that?

[B]

You should definitely read that.

[A]

Yeah. P.S. great foresight. Telling Peter Attia to suck it on the Rich roll podcast in 2024.

[B]

That was pretty epic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Knowing what we know now, that's so unfortunate. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that wasn't. I mean, that was probably quite fortunate.

[A]

Quite fortunate, actually.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So for those that don't know when I was on Ritual, and also, many listeners probably did come from the opportunity Rich gave me, and so I'm so endlessly grateful. Swap is so endlessly grateful for.

[B]

Also, I love that about Rich's platform is I feel like he gives and he recognizes that it's an opportunity and he does it. Like, you know, obviously big names for him are going to pull in. In more podcast listeners and get more publicity, but I feel like he does it to support people, and it's like the coolest part of what he does.

[A]

Yeah. I heard him on Pete Holmes's yous Made It Weird podcast before. I did Rich's podcast because I was trying to just learn more about Rich and shows that I over research things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, probably the reason that I did okay at our first date is that I didn't over research you.

[B]

Yeah. Why?

[A]

Why? I mean, I. I was just thinking we were going to be meeting as friends. I would have, like, definitely overthought it. Otherwise, advice.

[B]

Meanwhile, I came in, I read your blog. I read, like, every blog post. I knew a lot about you. You knew nothing about me. And I was like, I know everything. I have a parasocial relationship with you already, dude.

[A]

If I. If I overthink things in social situations, it's bad for everybody involved.

[B]

Actually, I kind of wasn't sure about you after your blog. Your blog was very, like, I get it. Yeah. No, it was that you were this, but like. Like who you are now, but a lot less polished. And so you said things on there that I was just like, who is. I was, like, very convinced we're just gonna have one ice cream hangout, and then I was gonna move on. And then Ash, you showed up and I was like, wow, this is great. Yeah.

[A]

You ever cringe so hard that your head goes inside your body? That's me and my blog. And honestly, me today. But, like, you don't go fully inside, but yeah. So I was listening to him talk to Pete Holmes, and they were talking about guests, and Richard's just like, oh, I want to help people share Their story stories. And it was so clear meeting him that he meant that because, like, Pete was like, but that's not what the sponsors want. That doesn't help you. And clearly, like, Pete feels, like, a huge pressure on that. And Rich clearly didn't care. And I think our episode ended up getting a ton of listens, which is really cool, but he really, genuinely wants to lift people up. And I hope we can do the same with the platform we're given. But yes, on there, he said to me, like, hey, can you clarify this point that Peter Attia made when he was on the podcast about Zone 2? And then I did this long answer, and at the end, I said, in conclusion, suck at Peter Attia.

[B]

You should have been like, I don't like Peter Attia's fonts.

[A]

I should have said a lot more. Obviously, you know, no one knew, I don't think. But, yeah, one of those weird life moments of just, like, so fucking sad.

[B]

So sad. Also, I feel deeply about that. We talked about this more on Patreon because I recommended one of his podcasts with Sally Greenwald, who I love. She's a professor at Stanford and a doctor at Stanford who does a lot of, like, women's sexual health stuff. And I recommended that, like, six weeks before the news came out about Peter Tia. And I'm just, like, devastated for that recommendation. Like, I am clearly, like, so sorry, Megan.

[A]

Totally. You're.

[B]

But Sally Green was a boss.

[A]

She is. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't have to feel bad about that.

[B]

Oh, I carry that.

[A]

I understand you wanted to apologize on that front. And, you know, getting back to the question, like, well, first, you know, you failed pretty big when you're getting messages over six months later. You taught all of us that we can eat shit and it'll be okay eventually.

[B]

I think you're gonna get those questions forever. When you're 80, someone's gonna be like, so the 20, 25 Western states. But by then, like. And I think, like, you've continued, like, that was so necessary for Leadville. And it's been really cool to see actually how you've owned that and worked through it and moved through it, you

[A]

know, I just can't get over, Megan, what you've done for me over time, you know? And, like, yeah, I know we went back and forth on questions earlier, but, like, it's just. It's insane. I mean, you know, anyone who sees videos, actually that you take of me running or whatever feels the energy that I'm getting all the time. I was doing a workout while you were doing your cool down from your alp this week, and you just, like, randomly said all these different times, it's like, david, I'm so proud of you. And I responded, um, but, like, you know, when you. When you live that, like, eventually it does become your reality, and. And you start saying it to yourself. And so, you know, obviously, we went through all that with Leadville, but just, I owe everything to you, and you've made me so much more resilient than I would be otherwise. And to everyone out there that doesn't have that particular support system, just know that, like, when you do put yourself out there, like, literally all I've gotten from actual humans that I'm ever gonna interact with is love. So it's not just Megan. It's like, you know, the whole world, it's messages like this, and that's what life's about. I think we identify with other people in the realness of being human, not the triumph of it.

[B]

And I think in many ways, when you put yourself out there, it's the best way to find humans, too. It's like, you know, there's been so many great humans that we've met and interacted with because of Western states and because of you putting your story out there that we never would have. Like, how cool is that? But I imagine on a smaller level, too, it's like showing up and doing this scary race is where you meet the people and you find the people that are, you know, those people that get it.

[A]

And also just learn about yourself. Right? Like, you're just liberated from so much. And that's why when I'm saying, are you ready for altars? I say, yeah. Yes. It's because, well, if they're not, they'll learn, and that'll be fine as long as they're like.

[B]

And there's always a learning curve. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But the point being, like, in that learning about yourself, that's where the magic of athletics happen. And why, like, being a lifelong athlete is so freaking cool. And if it wasn't running, I hope we'd be competing in. I don't know, whatever random thing.

[B]

What do you think we'd be competing in if it wasn't running? Hmm.

[A]

Dude, I don't know. You should be competing and peeing into small holes.

[B]

Yeah. How do you do it? Training.

[A]

We need to make a YouTube video on that.

[B]

Yeah, I've trained myself. Myself over time.

[A]

Yeah. Just, like, mentally.

[B]

I mean, you just learn how to control those muscles physically. I think it's a combination it's the brain. The brain connection.

[A]

You're the TA Peeing into small holes.

[B]

Always what I've wanted in life. We should put that actually on your YouTube. You changed it to David and Megan Roach and you took out lead bell course record holder. Which, like, I mean, I felt really bad that you had to take that out of your. Your bio.

[A]

It's good for all of us because it's going to get broken and then it'll be really sad.

[B]

Future former level course record holder. But we should just put adept at peeing in small holes as artist.

[A]

True. I'm pretty good at it too.

[B]

Actually. We could leave it both Leadbo course record holder. And that's like, you know, clearly applies to you. And then adept at peeing in small holes for me.

[A]

Real talk, your game with small holes is outstanding and I appreciate your vulnerability on this podcast. Podcast. And also, can we empty it out when we're done?

[B]

Eventually.

[A]

Eventually. We're saving that for Patreon. Okay. We love you all.