303. The Weird Science of Carb Mouth Rinses, VO2 Max Limits, Fueling for Performance, Cross Training, and Cramp Prevention!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Some Work, All Play – Episode 303

Title: The Weird Science of Carb Mouth Rinses, VO2 Max Limits, Fueling for Performance, Cross Training, and Cramp Prevention!
Hosts: David Roche & Megan Roche
Date: March 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the latest and weirdest science relevant to runners and endurance athletes. David and Megan, recording in full astronaut spacesuits for fun, bring their signature mix of laughter, science, and actionable coaching advice. They discuss recent studies on carbohydrate (carb) mouth rinses and cephalic phase responses, cross training revolutions, high carb fueling, and athlete cramping. Sprinkled throughout are memorable quotes, personal stories, listener Q&A, and shoutouts to top performances in recent races.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fueling for Performance & Recovery: Personal Stories

• Both David and Megan recently battled a stomach virus and talked about how low energy availability affected both their training and motivation.
• Key Insight: After illness, aggressive refueling (even with burgers) is necessary to restore motivation and physical readiness.
  • "I was like, I'm just gonna eat a burger for lunch and dinner every day until I feel better." – Megan [04:28]
• They highlight the "burger rule" as a powerful, practical reminder to eat boldly after depletion.

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2. Listener Story: The Long-Term Cost of Food Fear and the Value of Fuel

• A listener shares how damaging food rules in childhood led to a decade of unhealthy eating habits; the hosts underscore how critical it is to normalize carbs, fats, and sugars, especially for youth.
  • "Fats and sugars are amazing. Tell Mrs. Smith to get fucked." – Listener letter, read by David [07:49]

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3. Carbs, Burgers, and Performance: Nutrition Real Talk

• Fueling must adapt as training load increases. Frozen pizzas and burgers can be athlete food—a theme repeated throughout.
  • "It is the frozen pizzas, it is the burgers that let him do that." – David, discussing athlete Hans Troyer’s regimen [09:13]
• High carb fueling isn't just about crazy numbers (like 120g/hr) but about fueling enough, often, and flexibly.
  • "High carb fueling doesn't mean doing 120 grams of carbs all the time in training. It's having flexibility." – Megan [11:34]
• Upcoming YouTube video: Eight Guidelines for High Carb Fueling

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4. Bicarb, Gels, and Nutrition Hacks

• David raves about sodium bicarbonate ("bicarb") as a performance enhancer for serious training. FlyCarb is discussed as a cheaper alternative, though GI issues may arise.
  • "People need to try it. It is life changing." – David [13:31]
• Favorite product: Stryker gels (50g carbs each!).
  • Megan jokes about seeking even more concentrated gels ("60 grams would be an ideal gel"). [15:02]
• Discussion of the gentle but effective supplement Gnomeo, and challenges in opening the packets, leads to recurring jokes about masculinity and morning routines. [15:56]

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5. Main Study Deep-Dive: Carb Mouth Rinses and Cephalic Phase Responses [16:48–28:37]

Study: "Running performance in response to different forms of carbohydrate through cephalic phase responses"

• Concept: The cephalic phase response is the brain’s anticipatory reaction to nutrient signals in the mouth—akin to Pavlovian saliva when you smell food.
• Design: 18 endurance athletes did time trials under three conditions:
  • Carb mouth rinse (swish & spit)
  • Carb dissolvable strip (1g absorbed orally)
  • Water rinse (red dye as placebo)
• Key Findings:
  • Carb strip improved performance by ~3%
  • Carb mouth rinse by ~1.9%
  • 3% is similar to gains seen from super shoes or doubling carb intake in some prior fueling studies
• Analysis:
  • The effect is likely brain-mediated – small amounts of carbs trick the brain, reducing perceived exertion and enhancing motor drive.
  • Effects of the strip were present throughout, while rinse only helped at the end.
  • Artificial sweeteners (like stevia) don't trigger the same positive response; sometimes the opposite.
  • "All you have to do is trick your brain to think some carbs are coming to result in performance benefits, which is bonkers." – David [21:49]
• Practical Takeaway: Even small carb inputs early in efforts (even in short races or training) can enhance performance, independent of muscle glycogen. Early and consistent fueling is more about nervous system priming than just calorie delivery.
  • "Brain love carbs. Athlete love brain. Athlete consume carbs." – David [25:23]

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6. News and Athlete Shout-Outs [29:37–41:17]

a) Richard Feynman Quote & Joy in "Frivolous" Things

David reads an inspiring quote about following one’s passions, which gets the hosts reflecting on running, science, and the joy of devotion.

"Nobody ever figures out what life is all about and it doesn't matter. ...Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough." – Richard Feynman, read by David [29:38]

b) Keely Hodgkinson: Intentional Weight Gain for Power

• Gold medalist in the 800m gained ~15lb via strength & cross training for resilience post-injury.
• Takeaway: The evolution of cross training and strength in competitive runners is shifting perceptions – “it is a power sport.”
  • "There's a performance revolution right now, and I think it's coming from carbs and cross training and power and strength." – Megan [36:49]

c) Trail Standouts and Cross Training Revolution

• David Norris (skier) and Claire Rhodes (Alaska skier) win Big Alta 50k after ski seasons—showing crossover of cross training.
• Taylor Peavey (28k CR) cross-trains regularly.
• Theme: Year-round cross training (especially on Zwift) is redefining what training volume and power mean in endurance sports.

d) Courtney Dauwalter and Lauren Pertz

• Courtney wins at Chianti, showing comeback form.
• Lauren Pertz, age 42, mom of two, OB-GYN, earns golden ticket—role model for lifelong athlete growth.
  • "Just commit to the things for the sake of committing to the things." – David [43:09]

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7. Study: Hot Biking Underwater (Hot Water Immersion Training) [43:41–49:21]

• Research: Does cycling in a hot tub (literally) enhance performance in the heat?
• Both hot (95°F) and warm (77°F) water training improved time trial outcomes, but the hot water group improved more.
• No major changes in physiological markers (plasma volume, sweat rate)—likely the effect is perceptual toughness.
• Takeaway: Sometimes, just being regularly uncomfortable (e.g., in hot or humid conditions) is enough to yield adaptation.
  • "The most interesting finding is the non-finding...the heat group got a little better because their exercise sessions were kind of uncomfortable." – David [48:56]

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8. Alter G Treadmills, New Tech, & Being Old-School

• Reflecting on trends like Alter G (bodyweight-support treadmills), the hosts now favor straightforward cross training or uphill treadmills for most needs.
  • "Just run uphill on the treadmill if you want the in between running and not running." – David [51:46]

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Listener Q&A Highlights

1. VO2 Max and Frustration with "Talent" [57:05–62:59]

• A listener worries about hitting a plateau and doubts their own physiological limitations.
  • "Do you think I can dream bigger?...I'm scared because I've been training for ages and don't see improvement."
• Hosts' Response: Everyone faces this dilemma, even world-class athletes. VO2 numbers from watches are unreliable ("total bullshit"), and long-tail adaptation is possible. Experiment boldly and focus on showing up joyfully (“run more or bike more” as simple advice).
  • "Everybody feels this way. There are so few athletes that are just fully content with the exact genetic hand they were dealt." – David [58:05]

2. The Weirdly Talented, Untrained Runner [64:10]

• Listener describes a friend who barely trains yet runs a 1:37 half marathon without fuel or structure. How good could he get?
  • "How fast could he go with training?"
• Response: Sometimes talent shows up as hyper-responsiveness to training rather than raw VO2. It's worth seeing what happens with structure, but talent is multifactorial and unpredictable.
  • "So much of what we call talent is just training response." – David [65:01]

3. Cramping and Neuromuscular Fatigue [66:19–73:21]

• Listener struggles with late-race cramps despite using a SWAP Patreon plan.
• Advice: Address hydration and electrolytes first, then carbs (high carb reduces late-race cramps). Step-ups, post-run sprints, and downhill training can help fatigue resistance.
  • "If you have enough carbs on board, you're probably gonna be okay. Most cramping happens when athletes are also glycogen depleted." – David [67:59]
• Sweat testing and individualized plans are encouraged.

4. Late Periods and Underfueling Worries [74:00]

• Athlete missed period after training + stress + not eating enough.
• Response: For brief low-energy states, aggressive refueling ("satisfaction bombs") and reducing training intensity (not volume) restores normal function. Extreme stress or grief can also delay periods.
  • "Just satisfaction bomb the fuck out of it." – David [75:44]

5. Should We Inhibit Inflammation with Supplements? [77:59]

• Is daily tart cherry (mild anti-inflammatory) counterproductive?
• Answer: For high volume/intensity athletes, mild anti-inflammatories like tart cherry are helpful. NSAIDs (ibuprofen etc.) are different, and chronic use is not advised.
  • "Training is a fight against inflammation. Finding ways to limit it are productive." – David [80:03]

6. Coaching Certifications and Gatekeeping [80:34]

• Listener asks about a SWAP coaching academy and if certifications are mandatory.
• Hosts: No required gatekeeping; real-world experience is more important.
  • "If you feel that there is some big gate that you have to jump in to do coaching, you don't." – David [81:57]

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Notable & Memorable Quotes

• "Brain love carbs. Athlete love brain. Athlete consume carbs." – David [25:23]
• "Fats and sugars are amazing. Tell Mrs. Smith to get fucked." – Listener, read by David [07:49]
• "Just commit to the things for the sake of committing to the things." – David [43:09]
• "Training is a fight against inflammation." – David [80:03]
• "High carb fueling doesn't mean doing 120 grams of carbs all the time in training. It's having flexibility." – Megan [11:34]

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Fun & Memorable Moments

• The episode opens with both hosts in full astronaut suits for an IMAX screening of Project Hail Mary. Jokes abound about "Astrophage," the sci-fi energy source, and they weave it into fueling metaphors. [00:01–02:03]
• Megan admits to calling an Uber three miles from home after a run because of post-sickness fatigue, only to get judged by the driver. [03:32]
• Extended bits about opening difficult supplement packets and "being a man." [15:56]
• Discussion about pissing in popcorn buckets during movies—a unique hydration and race metaphor. [83:00]
• Reflections on the confidence, or not, provided by running gear—John G bras and astronaut suits. [85:07–86:55]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Fueling for Recovery & Performance: [03:03–06:22]
• Listener Story on Food and Youth: [06:22–08:01]
• Carb Science: Cephalic Response Study: [16:48–28:37]
• High Carb Fueling & Bicarb Discussion: [11:19–15:40]
• Keely Hodgkinson & Cross Training Revolution: [29:37–41:17]
• Hot Biking Underwater Study: [43:41–49:21]
• Listener Q&A—VO2 Max & Talent: [57:05–62:59]
• Listener Q&A—Cramping: [66:19–73:21]
• Listener Q&A—Underfueling & Late Period: [74:00–77:14]
• Listener Q&A—Inflammation: [77:59–80:14]
• Listener Corner—Running with Chronic Illness: [86:57–91:18]

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Tone & Style

David and Megan maintain their trademark mix of humor, vulnerability, scientific rigor, and encouragement for all athletes, no matter where they are in their journeys. They alternate earnest and silly, technical and practical, empowering their listeners to keep loving the process, keep experimenting, and enjoy the wild ride of endurance athletics.

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Outro Message

"Embrace the clusterfuck and the love of it... just commit to the things for the sake of committing to the things." – David & Megan, closing notes

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Use this summary as a comprehensive guide to the episode’s themes, science, and standout moments!

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[A]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday and we're wearing our finest space suits on this Tuesday.

[B]

Oh my gosh, Meghan, you look amazing right now.

[A]

You got me the spacesuit?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love it. It's pink.

[B]

Dressed in all pink. And we're talking full jumpsuit from ankle to head. And you look so sexy. Oh my gosh. I never knew we'd have an astronaut looking like this.

[A]

Aw, thank you. Should I wear it to school? Pickup?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Be that mom that walks in.

[B]

Absolutely. You're gonna wear it the rest of the day, right?

[A]

It's actually great. Cause Leo's not old enough yet to be amaz embarrassed by me. So I'm like, I'm gonna pick you up at school in a full spacesuit.

[B]

Okay. So the reason I got you a spacesuit is because we're going to an IMAX screening of Project Hail Mary right after we record today at 3:30.

[A]

On a Monday? Yeah.

[B]

We haven't done a movie since Leo was born, so three and a half years ago. And it's gonna be so special. I've never been the type of person that dresses up for anything. I'm not one of those. But I'm like, let's commemorate this and make it special.

[A]

Okay. I love this outfit. You're wearing a blue spacesuit right now. Recording in a spacesuit. I think this should be our Halloween costume for the next four years.

[B]

They're expensive, so justify the $73 I spent on this. But I'm just. I cannot wait. Project Hail Mary. It's just so full of optimism and hope. It's an incredible book. If you're not interested in seeing the movie. So I'm gonna cry a lot. Megan, do you promise me you won't get the ick?

[A]

No. From you crying at Project Homeweight. That's the best.

[B]

This is a thing on the Internet where men say their wives see them cry, like about something in that manner, and then they get the ick forever.

[A]

No, no. I mean, we survived our relationship, survived that horrible stomach virus, and nothing from here on out can be the same ick. You didn't even give me the ick in that.

[B]

There is a plot point in Project Hail Mary about this thing called Astrophage. It's not giving anything away. And you said right before we started recording, when I was. I was saying how. I was saying how beautiful you looked and that maybe we should role play. You're like, you can eat My astrophyse.

[A]

I did say that. That is so embarrassing in this context.

[B]

It's so perfect.

[A]

Actually, maybe the should sell Astrophage. Oh, it's a great energy source.

[B]

And we have the tagline already@the feed.com swap eat myastrophage 25% off. Yeah. Okay. We have the best episode for you today. We're start by talking about fueling for performance. No eating ass involved there. Or it could be if you want. A wild new study on carb mouth rinses and some really weird thoughts about how the nervous system actually operates. Some fun news, including Keely Hodgkinson's training approach. She just won the world championships. Courtney dewalter doing goat things again.

[A]

The goat is here again. I wish we had Chianti on live coverage. To see those final miles would have been so epic.

[B]

Would have been so special. And then a study on hot biking underwater. That was really weird. And questions on VO2. Max talent, cramping anxiety around workouts, and lots more.

[A]

I'm excited. Good questions on this. Good science. Underwater biking kind of sounds like hot biking. Sounds like hot girl biking. Like, put me on there.

[B]

Yeah, that one was strange. And I don't know how many takeaways there are other than weird study. Guys, respect. Okay? So very first thing is we have hope in the world.

[A]

Ah, the grass is green. I feel like we're seeing like optimism in so many different places after that wild stomach virus. It is so nice to be back.

[B]

It was so, so bad. So, you know, last week we were so depleted after. After sickness. And it was a very interesting reflection on low energy availability because obviously sickness is not pleasant. But then the after effects, even once we started to feel better, lasted a really long time. And both of us had runs where just totally plagued of all motivation.

[A]

I took my first Uber back from a run.

[B]

How far away from the home were you?

[A]

Like three and a half miles.

[B]

No, you weren't.

[A]

My Uber driver even gave me shit. He picked me up and he's like, you can't walk back. I'm like, you don't understand. You don't understand. In Boulder, it's like you can't even get an Uber driver to give you a ride back home without them waxing on your run and being like, why can't you make it back home?

[B]

And the funny part is, the day before, I had the same exact experience where I called an Uber. I was about three miles. You were only two, I think.

[A]

No, no, no. I was definitely three.

[B]

Okay, okay. I like that.

[A]

Honestly, Two miles might have been too much though.

[B]

So I called an Uber and it was telling me there was a 20 minute wait time and I was like, shit, I guess I have to go back home. And so to reflect on that, both of us had the really important realization that this was. This was a low energy availability signal that we got so depleted and we could not eat like normal humans to get back. We had to go all out. So I think the way you did it was the most optimal fueling approach I've ever seen.

[A]

Well, I had six days where my body really wasn't absorbing anything and then I finally just hit the fuck it point and I was like, I don't want to feel this way anymore of like going out on a run. And it hit me most as like, low motivation. Both low motivation and self judgment. Like, our podcast last week was actually quite tricky because as we were recording, I found myself judging what I was saying, which is like terrible for, you know, when you're creating, you don't want to be judging as you're creating. And I think it was my low energy availability brain talking. And so finally I was like, fuck it, I don't want to feel this way anymore. And I was like, I'm just gonna eat a burger for lunch and dinner every day until I feel better.

[B]

I think that's a great rule for everybody to apply is burger for lunch and dinner until you feel better when those things happen. And sure enough, next day you're feeling so much better. And I did the same thing where I just stocked up. This wasn't necessarily a good burger that we had up in Netherland.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like I needed some salt.

[B]

It needed something, but it got the job done. Um, and we felt so much better so quickly. And it's a good reflection on fueling overall that we talk a lot about fueling for performance on here. And I think sometimes when we talk outside of exercise and we say things like this, people will bristle against it. And I do think that there's a lot of nuance there. Right? Like if you're doing 10 miles a week, you know, that's not that far off of some, maybe more normal nutrition recommendations. But once you start to want to push your body, to want to have motivation, to want your body to excel and adapt, the fueling guidelines become different. So we talk about this a lot, but it brings me to a message from a listener that I think tees up this discussion. Hey, David and Megan. Just wanted to chime in about the content for younger listeners. When we mentioned doing a podcast for kids that we might do. We're not going to do that. You mentioned we might do it. I don't have kids and totally love your spicy talk, but man, I have thought 1 million times. I so wish I had known someone like Megan when I was young. I love that they singled out you. I agree not to get too into the weeds, but I remember like it was yesterday when I was in sixth grade grade home economics class. Is that still even a thing? I don't think so.

[A]

Did you do home economics class?

[B]

Nothing like that.

[A]

Oh, we had it. We did, like sewing and cooking and a variety of things. I was terrible at it. I felt like it foreshadowed my future as a wife and like, you're gonna be a bad housewife.

[B]

They should have just given you. You know how like dogs have the little rabies cards. Yeah, you should have had one that's like home. No.

[A]

No

[B]

prospective partners. Um, no. You're actually great at that stuff. You just don't have much time for it.

[A]

I could be okay if I wanted to be okay at it. I feel like even in sixth grade I was like, fuck this shit.

[B]

You excel whatever you put your mind to. You were fighting against the patriarchy. Okay, back to the question. And Mrs. Blank, let's call it. Mrs. Smith put up a food pyramid on the overhead projector with cartoon foods. She said, butter and sweets are evil. I blinked hard and had never believed anything more in my life. It changed how I looked at food for a super long time. Needless to say, I battled unhealthy eating for a decade. Then I ran varsity cross country in college because I was underweight. And because I was underweight, my coach required me to weigh in every week to see if I was, quote, healthy enough to race. Holy moly. Required weigh ins as a form of scolding for not weighing enough. Anyway, it took me a long time to heal myself and gain strength and confidence and learn about loving food and properly fueling. Even though I'm in my 40s now and training away at my own little goals, I. I still so appreciate all the constant reminders from you both about eating and fueling. I would give anything to have a Megan in my voice in my head when I was 12 to be like, fats and sugars are amazing. Tell Mrs. Smith to get fucked.

[A]

Mrs. Smith can go fuck herself. I agree.

[B]

And that's how you live. And I mean, I think it's just so important when you think about adaptation. And so this weekend I ran with Hans Troyer who moved out here to Boulder. It was so freaking fun.

[A]

Hags Hans Tagline is young and fit, and I feel like we just really needed some young and fit energy in our life after last week. And he came into the house and I was like, immediately I could feel that, like, the young and fit energy just permeating into the house. I'm like, give me some of this.

[B]

It's contagious.

[A]

It is contagious, actually. Even in like 45 seconds, I was like, I feel a little younger and maybe a little fitter.

[B]

Yeah, I was old and slow. And then all of a sudden, I touched Hans for a handshake and I, like, stood up straight. I gained 2 inches, my spine healed, my ankles weren't sore permanently. And I got to run with him on Magnolia Road. And we talked about so much because, you know, coach Hans for a while, but haven't gotten a chance to really dig in about life. And he's just the best guy and I believe in him so much even more now. And I already thought he was going to be the best of all time. But in that context, in the conversation, we talked about nutrition, and he was like, David, just serious question, you know, here's what my nutrition looks like. And he described a lot of the things we talk about on the podcast. And he said, I have people telling me I need to clean this up. And I'm like, man, you cannot do that if you want to compete at the level you're trying to compete at. And you know, he trains a lot you. And it's at the extreme ends of the spectrum. But, like, it is the frozen pizzas, it is the burgers that let him do that. And our brush with stomach bug, I think, really showed us, oh my gosh, this is why we harp on it so much. Because when you get on the wrong side of that equation immediately, the body doesn't want to do the stuff that makes it adapt.

[A]

I feel like I lost all of my muscles. It was a really weird feeling, like I was running uphill and I was like, where did my muscles go? They are just non existent right now. And it was one of those sad feelings of like, I just want my muscles to come back. But you guys, you know, you ran 18 miles on mags together with Hans at 6:20 pace. You were under 1:50 heart rate, David. That's bonkers.

[B]

And I mean, it was a good run for sure. I think it was the Hans energy that really helped. Um, but still a long way to go.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's high though. That's at 8,500ft. And to see Hans come to altitude from sea level to do that, it's like, it makes me excited. I feel like you guys have some big Sunday runs in your future.

[B]

Yeah, it's gonna be so fun to train with him. Um, that being said, I did bike the day before that, and I had lost 25 watts. It gets back to just losing the muscle. Like, running is a power sport, and fueling for power when you're also training a lot requires a slightly different take on nutrition. So are we still doing burger week? Where are we at with that?

[A]

Oh, burger week, for sure. Okay, we're gonna go to burgers in these spacesuits.

[B]

Speaking of quick check in, how's your body temperature in the spacesuit?

[A]

Actually, so hot. Can I unzip it right now?

[B]

Unzip, unzip. I'm keep talking. Okay.

[A]

In Project Hail Mary, they have a little air conditioner in the spacesuit.

[B]

Ah, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like that would probably be

[B]

more take off the top two or

[A]

we're stripping our spacesuit.

[B]

Okay. Zippers down. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

You know, a half a spacesuit is so much better than a full spacesuit. Oh, my gosh. It's like freedom. My brain can think.

[B]

My astrophage is less sweaty, though.

[A]

Actually, we're wearing it. You're wearing the astronaut suit with a feed hat, and I love that combo.

[B]

Also, what are my shoes?

[A]

Oh, and super shoes.

[B]

Alpha fly threes.

[A]

You just decided that your foot feels better in super shoes, and thus you've been walking around in them everywhere. And I kind of love it.

[B]

Yeah, I have an old pair of Alpha Phi 3s on. We're going to be a vibe at the movie theater.

[A]

We really are so special. Are we going to get some content?

[B]

Are we going to get content? Yes. This is going to be an Instagram reel for sure. We're taking time out of work for the first time in years to do anything for ourselves. It has to be an Instagram reel.

[A]

Oh, I'm excited.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Last thing on that is that there's a video coming out this Thursday on YouTube on guidelines for high carb fueling on that director Cody did. So check that out. You'll get a lot of details about mid run fueling. That really is pushing the entire sport forward.

[A]

So, David, you took the lead on this video and you did eight guidelines for high carb fueling. And I love how you phrased it like, I feel like you captured the nuance of, like, high carb fueling doesn't mean doing 120 grams of carbs all the time and training. Like, it means having metabolic flexibility at some times. And I feel like the way that you let it out and, like, you know, captured all of that with caveats for athletes with reds and female athletes. I feel like I haven't seen before in the literature. And I really like how you did it.

[B]

Well, we'll see. I'm nervous about it for some reason.

[A]

Why?

[B]

And it's always vulnerable to talk about these things in a new setting. Like, our YouTube videos have always been kind of about us more than about science, though I want it to be more in that direction in the future.

[A]

Well, we're taking kind of this turn with YouTube of trying to talk about science at the same time as filming adventures. And I really like this idea.

[B]

Tricky.

[A]

I know. I think. Stay with me because I think eight points was just ambitious, and I think we could do it later, but just with, like, three or four points. Editors think you're like, I want to do. I was like, I want to do the science. And then you're like, okay, I'm going to give eight points and make them all complicated and do it off the top of my head.

[B]

Well, people can check it out and they can let me know whether Megan's edit is wise.

[A]

No. Well, there's a point in which you're just talking about a scientific study, and you were like, it's 3.6%. And I think it was. Was it 2.6%? Was this.

[B]

I was off by one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I loved Cody. Just put it up there on the screen.

[B]

I went for it. I went for it. Okay, so we have the study coming up on carbs, which is relevant here. But before we do that, quick promo for the FE. Go to the feed.com swap SDYP and if you go there, you get 40% off your first order. It is the best deal on the market. Um, I just wanted to do a plug really quickly for bicarb yet again. Sodium bicarbonate. I know we push this a lot, but I took it before the Ramatons, and it's just amazing how I am a different athlete fundamentally on bicarb versus off. I am just so, so strangely different that I. People need to try it. It is life changing.

[A]

Did you give Hans a courtesy text that you're taking bicarb? Oh, no, I feel like. Tell friends that you're on bicarb.

[B]

That was. What was really funny is I heard from Hans that he was nervous before this run. Right. Like, he's going up to altitude to run with me. He had some, like, race day vibes for it. And I was nervous as hell for

[A]

a number of different reasons.

[B]

So we both kind of met in the middle of our nerves. And for me, like, bicarb is my security blanket where no matter what, I know if I take that, it's going to be a good training day, even if I have to go to the bathroom a couple times.

[A]

Have you tried the fly carb yet? So fly carb, cheaper version of bicarb. I've seen a lot of athletes actually like it and have good success with it. Have you tried it yet? I haven't tried it.

[B]

I'm a little bit worried about GI stuff with it because it looks like it dissolves. In which case, wouldn't that cause some issues? That being said, some athletes are swearing by it.

[A]

That being said, you have Imodium in your life.

[B]

Yeah, it's true. I might be trying experimenting a little bit with Imodium before races in the future, though. I don't want to talk about that yet because, you know, a lot of potential downsides of that. But the feed doesn't sell ammonium either. But yeah, fly carb seems like a great option more than bicarb. Go check out. Just write bicarb into the search bar on the feed. It's worth a try. Even if you're like, well, I run a 40 minute 5k. Why would I use bicarb? Because it makes you feel like a champion.

[A]

It makes you feel so good. Okay. My favorite thing from the feed this week are striker gels. Oh, yeah, 50 grams of carbs. I love the taste. Now when I step down to 40 gram gels, I'm just like, oh, it doesn't pack the same punch. Where are my extra carbs?

[B]

It's gonna keep ramping up, right?

[A]

I just gonna have. I just gonna get to the 90 gram precision bags here.

[B]

Yeah, I could see 60 grams every 30 minutes.

[A]

60 grams would be an ideal gel.

[B]

Oh, shit.

[A]

Yeah. Come on, someone. I feel like Stryker. Just bottle a little more in there.

[B]

Yeah. And Hyperlite is coming out with gels soon. I can't wait to review and talk about those. Um, anything else I wanted to talk about? I just. Bicarb, please get it. Also, if you don't want to do bicarb experimenting with Gnomeo, basically, like half our podcast listeners seem to be using Gnomeo now, and we're hearing across the board of people just saying it makes them feel healthier. And maybe bicarb isn't quite the same thing. I think bicarb is. Makes you hurt less. Like, it just hurts less and it's so much more pleasant. Gnomeo is basically a gentle nudge for your body to be healthier during hard training.

[A]

Yeah. For me, I feel like the performance context of bicarb feels better. Like, if you're like, Megan, you have 30 minutes to do this all out time trial. It's like, I would get bicarb before Gnomeo, but Gnomeo does make me feel good also. It's kind of funny. They're very hard to open. And I feel like we spend a lot of our mornings just being like, how are we going to open this thing?

[B]

You came to me yesterday and you just brought, you know, meo and you said, be a man.

[A]

Yeah, actually, I said, real talk. Real talk.

[B]

Be a man. And I tried to do it and I messed up. And it didn't actually come apart from the little connector. And I could tell you were disappointed in me.

[A]

I mean, you got it open at least.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, it was, like, still stuck to the connector, and thus we actually couldn't use it. But it was close.

[B]

Yeah, it's true.

[A]

At least you didn't like. It would have been really sad if you couldn't actually, like, break the seal on the connector.

[B]

I'm just fighting back against toxic masculinity, too.

[A]

We should make that a real.

[B]

Well, I did my. No me.

[A]

Oh, I forgot about that. You did do that.

[B]

And it didn't do great numbers.

[A]

Yeah, you had to hit it with a spoon a few times.

[B]

I feel like people need to check that out now, so go to the feed.com swat s2ap. So let's get on to the study. This one is so weird and so cool, and I think it has implications far beyond the study scope, but I can't wait to hear what you say.

[A]

And you bought this study?

[B]

I bought this study. You're right.

[A]

Why did you do this? I have friends who could have given us access to this study. And you just. You didn't even ask. You just sent it to me. You're like, here, I bought this.

[B]

You've got friends. You need places. AKA academia.

[A]

I was gonna say. That's how I feel about academia.

[B]

Yeah. So this study is called running performance in response to different forms of carbohydrate through cephalic phase responses. I paid 24.95 for this.

[A]

Actually. That's not bad.

[B]

It's not bad. I care about the science, and I really wanted to get it asap because I had to read what the authors said about the findings because there are parts of the what we're going to say that just don't make that much sense to me still even being the ultimate card believer. And I don't know where exactly this research goes.

[A]

See, it's kind of coming together in my head and I'm a little bit mind blown by it. So maybe I believe in this more than you do.

[B]

Interesting. Okay, so first, the idea of cephalic favorites response is that it is anticipatory of like your brain to a stimulus. So like, you know, your mouth waters when you smell something that's delicious, Something like that.

[A]

Encephalic basically just means head. It's a fancy way for saying head and brain. Yeah, I feel like it sounds so fancy. Like we got these cephalic responses and it's like, yeah, your brain is responding to stimuli.

[B]

I actually didn't know that.

[A]

So it's used a lot. I think it's a Greek term and it's used a lot across like biology and evolution.

[B]

For some reason, cephalic brings to mind snails. For me, I feel like there's something in biology.

[A]

Cephalopods.

[B]

Oh, maybe that.

[A]

But basically it refers to the fact that the autonomic nervous system is mediated by the vagus nerve. And when it's sensing like, you know, when you're putting something within your mouth, it's allowing your body to like, you know, access brain reward and motor pathways. And oftentimes this is thought to decrease relative perceived exertion in performance.

[B]

That was such a good explanation.

[A]

That was off the top of my head.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Off the top of my cephalic region.

[B]

Dude, you're cephalus confined as hell right now. Um, so the way this was structured is it took 18 endurance athletes, two of those were women, and it had them do three different time trial conditions in different treatments. So it was a 12.87k time trial across the three and every 1.61km of those time trials, so eight total intervals, they did the treatment. Um, and so the three treatments involved one, a carb mouth rinse. So that was one of the time trials that was has been studied in the past. We'll talk about that in a second. Number two was a carb dissolvable strip. That carb dissolvable strip only had one gram of carbohydrates. So not enough to affect performance, you would assume, but maybe enough to activate this response. And then number three was a water rinse control group.

[A]

And the Water rinse control group had red dye 40 prominently featured. They're like, we just have to make this. We did make this look like a good placebo.

[B]

Yeah, that was interesting to me. I'm like, maybe this is just measuring that. Red dye 40 just fucks you up. You up. Granted, I think that's in red. Gatorade is the greatest thing on the planet.

[A]

So I don't know. We drank a lot of it last week. It might be dead to me.

[B]

Don't you dare say that. I know men, Megan. Red Gatorade, men.

[A]

My Freudian response, like, men are dead to me. I'm like, same.

[B]

No, red Gatorade is the greatest thing ever. So what this research lies on top of, what it rests on the foundation of, is a lot of research on carb mouth rinses. We've seen this in the past where if you just have a carb drink, put it in your mouth and then spit it out, it improves performance relative to control. That is very strange. Harnessing the same type of principles, what this study does is it takes it a step further, looking at the carb

[A]

dissolvable strips, which makes sense because if you think about the mechanics of doing a mouth rinse, every one kilometer, it's like, that is kind of clunky. When you're running really fast in a 10k, you're going to like swish this thing around in your mouth and spit it out. I have a very hard time running and chewing at the same time. And I feel like carb rinse adds an extra layer of dynamics to that. But both of these things, both the carb mouth rinse and the carb dissolvable strip, are theorized to, you know, activate the cephalic response in terms of letting the brain know that the body is anticipating some kind of nutrient signal.

[B]

Yes. And that's what it found here. So the dissolvable strip improved performance by about 3% and the mouth rinse improved performance by about 1.91%. Though the mouth rinse also had some statistical issues where it wasn't quite as significant. So that's a pretty big change.

[A]

3% is pretty high.

[B]

3% is huge. Basically, super shoes change. Honestly, not that different from the carb study that looked at 120 grams of carbs per hour relative to 60 grams, which found a 3.6% improvement in performance. When we're talking about that type of

[A]

feeling, that was done over a longer duration. And I think here, because it's a shorter duration of exercise, you're Kind of like hacking these systems to try to tease the brain into thinking you have nutrients on board, when in fact you don't. And I think there's. This works for short term exercise, but over the long term, eventually the, the body's gonna be like, we actually don't have calories on board.

[B]

Oh, man. There's so many low carb researchers out there right now that are just saying all you need to do is think of the idea of a piece of

[A]

bread and you're 3 grams of carbs now and you're golden. Yeah.

[B]

If you just one day dream about a pizza, you're fine for a day. No, in fact, this points the opposite direction to me. So 1 gram of carb dissolvable strip, maybe that is enough. And the reason that's more active than the carbohydrate mouth rins is you absorb a little bit more in just that slightly greater signal to the brain of saying you're going to get fuel allows the brain to perform better and pushes back essentially against central governor mediated responses for negative performance. So the conclusion to me has nothing to do with mouth rinses or dissolvable strips. Like, I mean, maybe In a track 10k where someone's going for 30 minutes, they could try a dissolvable strip if they didn't want to mess with a gel. All this shows to me carbs are so freakishly good for performance that all you have to do is trick your brain to think some carbs are coming to result in performance benefits, which is bonkers. Imagine what that nervous system signal is actually saying on like an evolutionary pathway perspective. It points out why carbs are so important.

[A]

And to me, the time course of this matters too, because like, traditionally they've thought that this carb mouth rinse only works towards the end of an exercise bout when central fatigue is highest. But we actually saw here, as they were like measuring performance throughout, was that the carb mouth rinse was having that effect at the end. But actually the dissolvable strips were working throughout. Yeah. And to me it's like, oh my gosh, if one gram of carbs, carbohydrates is like working throughout, what are we doing as we magnify that across?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. What is it doing that? It does it at 1,81K.

[A]

Yeah. Early on. Whereas the carb mouth rinse was taking, you know, that they're not actually absorbing, was taking longer to have the effects.

[B]

Yeah. This is so truly wild to me. And it points out maybe our understanding of fueling and when you initiate fueling might be off slightly that like, even on your everyday run, if you're not taking in carbs, taking in just a little bit, even if it's through a drink or something early on in your run, will help improve performance through this mechanism. And maybe harnessing this mechanism all the time will help in a major way. Um, I. I mean, it points out why in the real world we're seeing the athletes that are running 10ks or half marathons have started to fuel. It probably has very little to do with like muscle glycogen. You're not replacing it at that in time interval when athletes are going like just under an hour, but they're still taking in lots of carbs. Maybe partially it's just nervous system. Nervous system, nervous system.

[A]

Are we seeing it? So we see it often within half marathons. Like, I feel like that is well established at this point. Have you had an athlete fuel a 10k yet?

[B]

I haven't yet.

[A]

It's a little tricky because you gotta carry the gel. You gotta take the gel. You're running quite fast, especially at like a high level of like a Jess McLean kind of level. I think it might be worth it.

[B]

It might be.

[A]

Or maybe something that's a little smaller, like 20 grams of carbs because, like, the effort's higher and that might not impact the GI system quite as much.

[B]

Or you carry around these strips or something like it just enough to activate this response. I mean, the cephalic response is really tricky because I was also reading other research on artificial sweeteners where some studies find that artificial sweeteners don't activate this response, which seems strange. Maybe it's partially just the absorption of a slight amount through the mouth that is all that's needed. And what we're seeing here is just that you get a huge benefit from carbs at very low levels. Kind of like the study that we talked about last year that found 10 grams per hour of carbs is enough to like, prevent some of the immediate reductions in performance from under fueling with carbohydrates.

[A]

It's kind of wild, actually, when you think about that from an artificial sweetener front. Maybe it's just our brains. Like, to me, I put stevia in my mouth and I'm like, oh, hell no.

[B]

It's the opposite.

[A]

It's the opposite. Yeah, yeah. Like, I feel like there's something in my palate that senses and tastes artificial sweetener. And it's like, absolutely the fuck not.

[B]

Yeah, true. It does the opposite to your nervous system. And that's the big conclusion. So I, I wrote my implication here, which is in all caps, brain love carbs, athlete love brain, athlete consume carbs. And that's the trick here, is it comes back to the brain through whatever mechanism it is, which, you know, we can activate some, but not all. Like the perceived exertion signal in this was not that high. It was more almost imperceptible improvements in performance.

[A]

Well, they're just running faster at similar. And I think if you think about the fact that they're running faster at similar rpe, it actually just means they're tolerating it better. Yeah.

[B]

And so fueling probably has a humongous nervous system impact. And that's one of the parts of the discussion that gets lost. So this type of study is happening in isolation relative to the high carb discussions out there. And often with high carb discussions, you'll have people pushing back and say, well, it's not all oxidized, so shouldn't you go lower until more of it is oxidized? And the answer is probably that unoxidized carbohydrate when you're going high just goes to the nervous system and improves brain function and reduces, increases fatigue resistance. And so maybe what we're seeing is fueling is partially about your muscles and largely about your brain. In that brain part is the part that athletes need to harness all the time. And that's why fueling even runs you don't need to fuel leads to better performance and adaptation subsequently.

[A]

Well, I thought about that this week because as you're going out there and just like feeling rough on runs coming off of this virus, I was like, I have to take a gel 10 minutes in. And it's kind of amazing. Like, you had a bike day where you're like, Megan, for every 10 minutes after I took a gel, I felt good. And then it was all downhill from there. And it's like, I feel like carbs in many ways are playing tricks on our brain that allow us to do these things when our body is in states of fatigue. And it's kind of wild.

[B]

Yeah. If you were doing tests now, like long tests, I would take gels during them or something. Oh, for sure. To harness similar processes for the brain.

[A]

We've actually talked about this with the podcast is sometimes we get to an hour into the podcast and this is like a high energy podcast. We are in our spacesuits, sweating away over here, and I'm like, I think our podcast would be better in the final 30 minutes. If we took a gel. If we had a gel break, maybe we should.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe we could do, like, a different thing every time.

[A]

That'd be fun. A new gel.

[B]

There are some podcasts. One of the podcasts I listen to by comedians is called We Might Be Drunk, where they drink the whole podcast and get progressively more drunk. We can get progressively more gelled up.

[A]

I think we had. We did a beer podcast in one of our early podcasts.

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

Yeah. Do you remember that? It was like, 5 o' clock at night and we were just hanging out, drinking a beer. It was a good vibe.

[B]

Well, we haven't done alcohol in a very long time.

[A]

I know. We would get like, four sips in and be like, so you want to know what we really think about cars? Carbs.

[B]

Oh, my God. That would be a way to get canceled. So, yeah, this is just wild science. Harness it. Get some carbs on board, even if they're small amounts on most runs. I just think the more we see it, the more it's clear from an evolutionary perspective that this is how the body responds. And so if your brain is telling you this on, like, a fundamental existence level that is adapted over millions of years, don't withhold it. Like, we don't understand exactly why yet, and. And we probably will in the future, but until then, this is something that all of us need to be harnessing. And that doesn't ne mean that you need to be humongous carb intake. It just means probably dribble it in at the very least, and you're gonna see benefits.

[A]

And I think if you're doing strong training and not feeling like yourself. My Shabbat title this weekend was Throw Some Burgers and Astrophage on it. Because it's like, that was the first thing that I went to, and I felt so much better. And so I feel like, you know, if you're not feeling quite like yourself and doing strong training, throw some more carbs on it and see what happens.

[B]

Absolutely. Okay, let's get on to news before we do that quick promo for Patreon. So much fun happening there. Starts at just $5 a month, and there's tons of free content, so go. If you just want to see some of the fun articles. Patreon.com swap swap.

[A]

Can you put together the 8 points for high carb fueling on Patreon?

[B]

Oh, yeah. So I have an article that's all about high carb fueling. I'm going to summarize it into more of a flowchart so people can really understand it. And that's going to be available to everyone for free. Um, but then also, we have tons of training plans there. So much going down and bonus episodes. We did a fun one last week that was fun. Oh, my God, Patreon is just such a joy. And just thank you all for giving us the support. And on this, I kind of wanted to transition out of it with a quote I read just this morning that made me feel really good about the universe.

[A]

Where did you find this?

[B]

Honestly, I found it on Twitter. Most of my algorithm is Project Hail Mary news right now.

[A]

That's like, what you spend. You're like, megan, every reel we watch is gonna be Project Hail Mary.

[B]

Yeah. And so it was by theoretical physicist Richard Feynman. And here's the quote. Fall in love with some activity and do it, exclamation point. Nobody ever figures out what life is all about and it doesn't matter. Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough. Work as hard and as much as you want on the things you like to do the best. Don't think about what you want to be, but what you want to do. Keep up some kind of minimum with other things so that society doesn't stop you from doing anything at all.

[A]

I love that so much, and that

[B]

makes me feel so good about how much we devote to running and fueling and all this other stuff. He's like, richard Feynman says it's cool.

[A]

Yeah. He said about astrophysics, though.

[B]

He's talking about anything.

[A]

I mean, I know he's talking about anything. Sometimes there's, like, a part of my brain that's like, he's talking about astrophysics and I'm talking about shitting in the woods. Yeah.

[B]

He's not a theoretical juggler or something.

[A]

A theoretical shitter.

[B]

I don't know. I think he would agree. I think anyone that pursues those types of higher levels of thought and sees kind of the numbers behind the universal signal probably reaches a point where they're like, the frivolous things are what matter.

[A]

No. And I think I keep getting back to that to myself. Like, I had a moment this morning waking up. We just had such a fun coaching weekend of athletes throwing down at Big Alta and Chukanut and Chianti, and it was just like. It was so rewarding and thought about, you know, like, the paths that I could be on in terms of science and medicine. And I'm like, I'm just so happy to be here. And sometimes I feel like it does feel ridiculous and frivolous at times, but most of the time I wake up and I'm just like, ah, I'm grateful.

[B]

I'm so proud of you for that. I mean, that's took so much courage to step off that path and I know that it must still lead to tough times, especially when we go through a lot like we've been going through a lot recently. This weekend was cleansing as hell for us.

[A]

We went to the mountains and it was just like rejuvenation. We needed that so much.

[B]

And we also tracked races where swap athletes crushed it this weekend it was good.

[A]

We had so many carbs. We went to the mountains, we tracked races. It was just like a rejuvenation.

[B]

And also just felt purpose driven with coaching too, which was so fun. So whatever your frivolous thing is, like if you're listening to this, probably partially running and physiology, but it could be anything, that's what matters. And that's why Project Hail Mary resonates so much with me. Like the story is obviously very cool. Science and space are extremely my shit. But it all is treated with so much humor. And I've read some of the criticism of the movie, for example that it's just a lot of Reddit humor or who would make jokes in this situation. And I'm like, I hope we would all make jokes in this situation.

[A]

Like we are on a one way mission and we are going to enjoy it. No, actually I've been listening to the audiobook. I have three hours left in the audiobook. I didn't make it in time for the movie screening the IMAX year ahead, but I was devoted to it on the run because it was so like I knew I wasn't gonna make it. And I was like, I still wanna get as far into this book as I possibly can. So I'm sorry I didn't make it.

[B]

I saw another tweet that was, hey, if you don't have a boyfriend, just go to Project Hail Mary movie and say I don't really understand what's happening right now. And you're gonna have so many guys come up to you and say I'll explain.

[A]

Okay? But like the way Andy Weir explained the science was actually so good.

[B]

Oh, he's amazing. The author in the book. Like the book is way more science driven. But throughout the book I'm like, I don't understand shit that just went down

[A]

while I was over there. A magnolia run, just googling astrophysio. I was like, I want to know more about this Theoretical concept.

[B]

Okay, on to news. The first thing we want to talk about was Keely Hodgkinson who just won the 800 meter indoor world championship in a dominant fashion. So dominant, like truly incredible. And we why we wanted to talk about this specifically is an incredible article came out in the Times of London that talked about her journey as an athlete and how she intentionally gained a substantial amount of weight, I think like £15 6 kg this year and was by biking a ton and building up her strength because that will help her in performance. And there, you know, we try to avoid weight conversations a lot, but hearing a role model, if this happened to sport talk in this way that like it is a power sport and she's tried to increase her power is so inspirational.

[A]

And to go on then and to win in dominant fashion at the world champs in 800, it was like so cool to watch, just kind of knowing her story. And she did this because she was coming off a hamstring tear and just felt like she needed to be more resilient and stronger. And it makes me excited because there's the M11 track club led by Trevor Painter as a coach and Elise Cranny is there now. And I'm excited to see what happens. Like those are all strong, fast athletes, like very powerful athletes. And I'm excited to see what happens when we take Elise, who's Well known for 5k, 10k, like slightly longer distances, and toss her into training with athletes like, you know, Keely Hodgkinson and Georgia Hunter Bell and see what happens. And I'm kind of excited for that science experiment.

[B]

It's so cool to see cross training becoming a bigger part of all of this. I think that is the training frontier that I predict in 2026.

[A]

Imagine Keely's numbers on Zwift. Oh God, I'm like salivating right now thinking about that.

[B]

That is bonkers. Yeah. And I mean just this weekend, you know, at the big Alta races. So in California there were these, these fast, hard trail races called Big Alta for us. David Norris won for men in the 50k and David's a skier, so he came off a winter of tons of cross training right into this race. Points out just how direct of an application it can be.

[A]

Same with Claire Rhodes actually in the 50k as well, coming from Alaska and they had a rare heat wave this time of year in Marin and she came from like a winter of a lot of skiing and cross training into Marin.

[B]

So yeah, Megan's athlete performing in the heat won the 50k. In dominant fashion and just truly bonkers time times. But then how this might all fit together for athletes that aren't like skiers. Like when it's a skier you can say, oh well, they're just doing their sport in winter and they come across well, well, how do you do this year round? That's kind of what Keely's exploring. And then at big Alta in the 28K, I think Taylor Peavey shows this. So Taylor Peavey, oh my God, she's going to be the superstar of the future. She's not. It doesn't have a shoe deal yet.

[A]

And I'm like, shoe companies take notice.

[B]

I mean they could get the best deal of their lives if they sign her.

[A]

I feel like shoe companies love looking at talent from like the collegiate system and road system just because it shows the speed to translate well to trails. And she was an all American in college.

[B]

It's just weird to me that companies aren't lining up and shows maybe disconcertingly how much of it is just looking at Instagram followers. I don't also don't understand why she doesn't have like a trillion Instagram followers. But I was looking at it yesterday actually.

[A]

I know her handle. It's Taylor with Lime.

[B]

Go follow her. Taylor with lime. Let's follow with Taylor with Lime.

[A]

Great Instagram handle.

[B]

She needs to get that cash money for how good she is. Um, and but in the process of training for this, every single day week, she does a Thursday cross training day where she'll do Zwift. She cross trains for doubles midweek and then on Sunday she'll do another cross training day. So she's cross training year round and doing a dedicated day. And so yes, that decreases your weekly volume, but it allows an athlete like that to set a massive course record at big Alta. And I think more and more we're gonna see cross training become a much larger part of training theory and weekly miles to be down regulated because the weekly miles approach just disincentivizes training for strength sometimes. Um, and cross training is not just like in oh, this replaces a run. It makes you better than an equivalent run would be. You're that two hour bike that you might do is so good from a muscular endurance perspective and applies directly to 800 meters on the track like Keely or Taylor or David Norris or Claire or any of these athletes.

[A]

I wonder how much. So like, I think cross training right now is really like, like in its revolution in terms of feeding the performance changes that we're seeing across sport. Like, you know, there is a performance revolution right now, and I think it's coming from carbs and cross training and power and strength. I wonder how much of that is actually driven by Zwift. Because when you have now a cross training, you know, concept that allows for consistent tension through the chain.

[B]

Yeah, it pushes you a bit too.

[A]

It's safe, it's indoors, it's competitive because there's jerseys and there's segments like, I wonder how much of Zwift is actually driving this cross training revolution because you no longer like, like out there just frolicking, which can be great too on a gravel bike. But you're really putting out a lot of watts.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you look at the history of all of the stories of athletes who excel of cross training. Like the Parker Valby stories, the alias gender stories. All of them get to work in their cross training mob modality.

[A]

Oh yeah. Parker Valby has like these, you know, like the janitor signs of like wet floor when she's doing her cross training. Cause she's sweating so much.

[B]

And you were like that in the old days too. And so cross training is great, but you probably actually need to push it a bit. It, um, and Zwift, everybody starts pushing it.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, how can you not.

[B]

Oh my God. So on Saturday, I did a two hour bike on Zwift at 8,500ft.

[A]

So up high still.

[B]

I was just suffering so bad and I started it and I just wanted to quit the whole time and I finished and yeah, my heart, it was in zone two, but it was hard as cross training in zone two is. And I finish and I'm like, oh, well, that's the best training stimulus possible. In the same way that I feel after running on Magnolia Road with Hans. So here's a vote for cross training motivated by keely and also just embracing your power. I think that's one thing cross training helps with. Like after I rode the bike and my power had dropped so much from sickness, I had my realization moment that I need to gain weight right now because I probably got weak during sickness. And so I need to just focus, try to put on some muscle, otherwise I'm gonna be suffering.

[A]

Ah, I know. We need to put on muscle fast.

[B]

Yes. Oh my God.

[A]

Come on, burgers. Okay, question for you. So in the article about Kelly Hodgson, she was talking about the fact that, you know, she's now trying to get very fast world records and she's making a call for male pacers to be involved in these records. What do you think about that and how that sets a precedent on the track? Like, do you think that should be a thing?

[B]

Okay. Huh. I mean, I guess you're saying if women can't have male pacers, they're just limited to female pacers and it's setting women behind men in some ways. That's the one tricky part. So men will always have male pacers and if women don't have male pacers, their records are going to have less drafting in them. So it will, you know, penalize women actually for being that much better than their gender compatriots. Does that make sense?

[A]

It kind of makes sense.

[B]

As I'm saying it. I'm like, it doesn't really make sense.

[A]

No, I mean, I think you could line up enough female pacers that like, you know, they, they'd have to run really fast in the 400 even for Keely to get an 800 world record.

[B]

Yeah. So it's tricky for men. You know, you could have a pacer all the way to 600 no matter what. For Keely, she's never gonna have a

[A]

Pacer Pass 400, she's so dominant. Yeah, it's tricky, but I do think it runs like, remember watching the Faith Kip yagon, the sub 4 minute mile attempt and she had like 15 male pacers on the track with her. And I feel like it becomes tricky because then can you get a world record out of, you know, competition where like, you know, formal competition where male pacers are not allowed. And so I feel like it does set a dangerous precedent, but it's kind of an interesting conversation.

[B]

Can I say my real hot take?

[A]

Yeah, say it.

[B]

I hate pacers in all contexts on the track and road. I, I hate it so much. I, I, I am involved in this sometimes because for our athletes I'll have meet directors, reach out and be like, well, what do you want the pacer to be at? And I'm like, I don't want a pacer, I want them to race. I don't care about going out and time trialing on the track. I, I just think it turns it into an exhibition. I also think paced races are pushing.

[A]

It's a little bit more boring. Too boring.

[B]

It pushes times so fast. And when you push times fast as the goal rather than competition is the goal, you're also incentivizing cheating. And I think if you take away some of the pacer options and have people just race each other, you're not going to reward cheating quite as much.

[A]

Agree. I actually like having the light system on the track. So the lights indicate, like, where world record pace would be.

[B]

No, let people race, man. What are we racing lights for?

[A]

I think it's so. It's a cool visual also. If I were an athlete, I'd be like, I'm going to hold on to that light for as long as humanly possible.

[B]

I don't know, I just think make it simple, person versus person. And that stands in contrast, though, to my view of ultra pacers, which is, sure, let them, please.

[A]

You're like, I just want Megan to pace me.

[B]

Full of contradictions. Ultimate pacer. Hypocrite. Okay, uh, let's go on to the next study before that, actually. Courtney Dewalter, she established herself at Chianti, won that race. Did she take the golden ticket?

[A]

She did not take the golden ticket, which I was sad about, but she's racing Hard Rock, so it's like, let's get a full strength Courtney at Hard Rock, but, man, she threw down in the final miles, so she was hanging on. Like, at one point, it looked like she was in third heading into the final descent. And then she just went and fucking trucked the final descent. And it was just like, like, you know, to see Courtney still be Courtney the Goat, it made me so happy.

[B]

Yeah. Especially, you know, she went through a lot last year and that finish at UTMB where she finished 10th, a lot of people are saying, oh, well, is Courtney, like, past it? Courtney's like, nope, nope. It's just so cool to see also

[A]

racing the best too. Like, she was racing Ying Vol Casperson. She was racing Rachel Entrekin, who is out there at, like, her first big international race. And you knew it, David. You're like, rachel's gonna be like, oh,

[B]

she's gonna be incredible.

[A]

Seeing her times against the men's fields in a lot of these US Races

[B]

where she's been dominant.

[A]

Yeah. Just watch.

[B]

Yeah. And your athlete, Lauren Pertz, got a golden ticket.

[A]

How cool is that? There's just this amazing photo of Lauren just cheesing hard as she got the golden ticket in fifth. And I'm so proud of her. 42 years old, mom of two, an OB GYN, has her own practice. And just to keep, like, it reminds me of that Richard Feynman quote of continuing to show up. And actually, I had the conversation with her, I was like, lauren, you're ready to get a golden ticket. You have to go to Chianti. And she just was like, megan, it feels ridiculous to go to Italy to chase this golden ticket. I'm like, uh, you have to do it. And to see her just believe and to show up and to, like, have the courage to be like, I'm in the golden ticket hunt was so cool.

[B]

I'm gonna take that so hard in my own life. Just, it's so easy, especially as you get older, to be like, why does this thing I care about matter at all? But I guess you asked that about everything. Like, long term.

[A]

Oh, everything.

[B]

It just permeates anything you care about that isn't. I don't know, maybe family is a

[A]

little different, but I was gonna say parenting. It's like. Like thrust upon you so hard that there's not a part in my brain that's like, why?

[B]

Yeah, I feel like we should be thrusting out of paradise. I wanted to.

[A]

Thrusting. No astrophysiology.

[B]

But even then, I mean, you just question everything, you know? And that quote, to me is a warm hug in the sense of just commit to the things for the sake of committing to the things. And seeing Lauren's look of shock when

[A]

she got the golden ticket, oh, it was the coolest. Like, the most priceless face.

[B]

It's the most priceless space. And for her to be a doctor and also questioning it, it. That makes me feel, like, at home. So, yeah, Lauren's freaking incredible. So now let's do the hot biking study. This one is so strange and so weird, and I don't know how many training takeaways there are. There might be some cool science takeaways, though.

[A]

I kind of like being a researcher and just being like, we're just gonna put people underwater and see what happens.

[B]

Yeah. Weird stuff. Here it is in the European Journal of Applied Physiology Training and Hot water immersion Improved exercise performance in hot and humid conditions in recreational athletes. A randomized control trial. Here's a quote. Heat acclimation is a common strategy for athletes preparing to compete in the heat. And it's generally obtained by exercising in a hot environment, eg, environmental chambers like saunas. But passive exposure to hot water has also been shown to induce acclimation. These are the hot tub studies we've talked about. Thus, combining exercise in hot water could be an innovative method to enhance performance in hot environments.

[A]

This is so funny. Never once have I sat in the hot tub and been like, we should just put an exercise bike in here.

[B]

Yeah. Also, how. How does this work?

[A]

Yeah, I know. It's like, anytime anyone's underwater training, there's, like, underwater treadmills. I'm just kind of like, huh, yeah, that looks interesting. Yeah.

[B]

But, like, how do you even move in water. I'm so confused by all of this.

[A]

I feel like it's just because bodies of water scare us. Anytime you put anything underwater, I'm like, it's just not going to happen.

[B]

There was a scene in Project Hail Mary, the book, where he's doing like astronaut training underwater. And the whole time I'm like, nope, nope. Big old nope. For me, dog, I am out.

[A]

I've always wanted to go to space, but as soon as you bring in water, I'm like, not going to be an astronaut anymore.

[B]

You show me the ocean and I'm like, you show me the deep vastness of, you know, space and radiation. I'm like, yes, please sign me up. I will go to space tomorrow.

[A]

What they did was they took two groups of 12 participants, including 22 men and two women, and they had them do 10 different training sessions in different water stimulus. So they had them bike in 35 degrees sea water and then another group bike in 25 degrees Celsius water. And 35 degrees Celsius is like 95 degrees Fahrenheit.

[B]

Yeah. So hot, but not crazy. It's not pure hot tub.

[A]

It's not like our hot tub where you scald yourself upon entry.

[B]

Uh, and then before and after the intervention, athletes did 30 minute time trials in hot and humid conditions. So that was in 38 degrees Celsius, 46% humidity. So that would be very muggy. That would be really tough. Um, and the results were There was a 1.1-kilometer increase in the hot water group. So in the distance that they traveled, plus 27 watts. So they added 27 watts and a 0.5 kilometer increase in normal water plus 13 watts. So everybody got a little bit better. Maybe training in water is the frontier, rather than it just being hot or

[A]

just doing training at all. You're introducing a training intervention to two groups.

[B]

Yeah. That being said, I have heard some theories that just floating in water has benefits for training.

[A]

I was actually gonna bring this up because whenever you do, like, hot water studies looking at like hot tub and how that impacts like hemoglobin, mass and some of these other metrics, the control group actually should always be in cold water because of this exact theory.

[B]

Well, maybe it shouldn't be in water at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or yeah, because like, if floating is causing some change, maybe it's floating. Maybe floating is the next frontier of training theory.

[A]

Floating sounds terrible.

[B]

No, floating. I mean, it.

[A]

I don't know, a big takes. I mean, are you talking about treading water or floating?

[B]

No, Floating? No, just pure. Just like being there. With floaties on. With floaties on, chilling, where you can touch the bottom.

[A]

You have an assisted device.

[B]

Clear water. You can touch the bottom.

[A]

I remember at our pool growing up, I didn't pass the pool swim test until I was, like, 8 years old.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

What happened to jump off the diving board? But we had this whole thing. You had to, like, swim Olympic length at the pool.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then tread water for five minutes.

[B]

Oh, five? What, the five minutes get you.

[A]

I remember being there, friend. I was like, this five minutes is so long.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I needed a floaty device for sure.

[B]

I. I think that is tough also. You must have been pretty heartbroken about not passing tests.

[A]

I mean, I. When it came to the water, I was just kind of like, over this. My brain was like. It was like back in home at class, I was like, I'm just not cut out from this.

[B]

That is classic Megan is like, you're so focused on being the best you can be, but once you sign off something, oh, I'm gone. You were gone. This reminds me of when we took Leo to music class.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

When he couldn't talk. I. I forget how old he was. He's like, oh, he was like, probably 14 months.

[A]

He was really young.

[B]

Yeah. And he. He was a little delayed on speech and just kind of out of it. And as soon as they started doing, like. And now we're gonna do this, I could just see the lights go out in your brain and you're like, no. What was it?

[A]

I hate this. Oh. They were having us do, like, some sort of, like, rhythmic drumming. And I just was like, this is. Well, I was like, I wanted to go to a class, have Leo participate. I. It was like after work hours, and I was like, my brain is fried right now. I don't want to drum.

[B]

You also wanted to be bangers, I think I was like, why are we doing this?

[A]

Oh, we were singing the worst songs. I know.

[B]

You're like. I'm like, you want to be like Little John Turn down for what?

[A]

We were just like, the green grass grows all around. And actually, that song. That song is a legit banger.

[B]

If it was that, you would be, like, full blown in it.

[A]

I feel like right now in spring, I'm just singing that all the time.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So basically, the group in hot water improved power, but there was no difference between groups regarding changes of physiological parameters in the time trial in the heat. So, like, coarse temperature, skin temperature, sweat rate, et cetera. So they were Getting benefits, but we're not exactly sure where they didn't see it in plasma volume. Probably just perceptual, honestly. But that training in hot conditions is hard. Thus your brain gets a little bit better at doing hard things even if you don't have like some impact. And that I think that's one of the benefits of heat training. And that might be my big conclusion of the study is the most interesting finding is the non finding that there weren't changes in any of these other variables that we always see. Thus the heat group probably just got a little better because their exercise sessions were kind of uncomfortable. And when you've been kind of uncomfortable and be comfortable with that, you're a little bit better at the time trial.

[A]

Well, I feel like right now we're heading into a time of year like spring that like temperatures are starting to heat up and we're not talking about like, you know, going out and running in a heat suit. It's like going out and running in warmer temperatures is a form of heat training and being slightly uncomfortable. That still matters. And it's like, it doesn't have to be this perfect heat stimulus of, you know, sitting away and sweating in your hot tub at 107 degrees Fahrenheit. It could be just going out and running in 80, 90 degree heat and you're getting good benefit from that.

[B]

That being said, just go sit in your hot tub. That sounds so much better than biking in your hot tub or going out in heat suits or whatever.

[A]

I kind of want a bike in the hot tub though, now.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know how it would work. I feel as if there would be just too much resistance. Have you ever seen a bike underwater before?

[A]

Actually, I would love to know like, what their RPMs were that they were able to.

[B]

Yeah, this is very cool. Maybe this is what Tade Pago is doing.

[A]

I feel like I' I think the on team here in Boulder has an underwater treadmill.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Have you seen that?

[B]

I haven't.

[A]

Yeah, I'm like, I want to try it.

[B]

Very weird. Sometimes when training theory starts pushing into new places, I'm just like, nope, I'm not going to. I'm not going to participate in that part of training.

[A]

Your brain turns off like mine does in music class.

[B]

Exactly. Honestly, a good example of that is alter G treadmills.

[A]

Oh yeah. And actually I agree.

[B]

Vindicated a little bit. Like at first I'm just like, oh, I don't want to have to know about alter G's. And this was really common as I was becoming a coach because Alberto Salazar was all the rage back then. Obviously since then he's been discredited as a piece of shit. I mean true.

[A]

I mean legit. Yeah.

[B]

But through Nike Oregon project, they talked a ton about doing alter G training to add on distance for their athletes. And I was like, oh man, that's interesting. Cool. And I'm really glad that I didn't get to be a part of it because I think that it was just a smokescreen for athletes cheating. And since then, I think the alter G theories that pop up here and there never persist. They always come and go and come and go. And so yes, I understand its use to come back from injury for sure. But it's use as a long term training stimulus to offload the body. It's like just cross train if you're gonna do that.

[A]

Agreed. And I actually think carbs have changed the game too because it's like, you know, just fuel well and go out for a normal run. And I feel like the body can actually handle that stress. Well, if you should be doing it. Otherwise just crossroad.

[B]

Absolutely. But I think that's partially of part that we're being a little bit old in curmudgeony.

[A]

No, I think alter G treadmills as like a training staple outside of coming back from injury has largely fallen away. And I think it's just in favor of Zwift and you know, some of these other cross training tools.

[B]

Maybe it's connected. You did some of that in college, right? You did alter G a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. And you know what? It just didn't really feel like running. And then I felt like a million pounds when I came back on land.

[B]

Just felt terribly.

[A]

It was like so uncomfortable. And I think there's something to it. Like when I was running on the Alter G1, you can run really fast because like you're at 60% or 70% or whatever the percentage is of body

[B]

weight, which is what the proponents would argue is good thing.

[A]

Yeah. But it feels weird. Like it doesn't feel like you're actually running. Yeah. And then I think the way like my hips were strapped into the machine just encouraged weird forms that like my hamstrings would get super sore from it and not from running fast, just from like being strapped into the. The like little pants things.

[B]

Yeah. It looks like a spacesuit. Yeah. I would say just run uphill on the treadmill if you want the in between running and not running, like running and cross training. That's a good option actually.

[A]

Ultimate college team. So you would like sweat into these like, like astronaut looking pantsuit things and we only had like two or three of them on our college team. And so you'd just be like putting on the sweat sweat of your earlier teammate when you would run on the

[B]

alter G. So lots of microbiome going on down there.

[A]

Down there? Yep.

[B]

Okay, let's get on to question answer for you. That promo for the Wahoo run treadmill. This thing is so bonkers. And one of the most exciting things I'm seeing is that some of our pro athletes have gotten them recently. A couple of them sent by Wahoo, which is amazing. And all of these athletes are having breakthroughs. Now this treadmill wants you to go fast in ways that you just truly cannot understand until you run on it. Like if you're looking for a treadmill, this will be the best purchase you've ever made.

[A]

Okay. We actually need a randomized control trial of running on Oahu for workouts and using that as like a primary workout tool and then having athletes run on a shitty treadmill and comparing the two and looking at long term progression. Because I actually do think we would find something.

[B]

Well, Emma Grace Hurley, who we don't coach or anything, but she just set the 8K American record and posted tons of videos this winter on her Wahoo run treadmill, doing almost all of her workouts on there for a bit. And I think think the basic thing is it is so good for running fast that you do everything faster. I can do things on that treadmill that I could never do outside. And it's because the treadmill itself is so well constructed that when you're on it you just feel wildly comfortable. So you can see the link in our show notes, click that use code swapswap at checkout and you get like a 400 fan. We don't get anything extra for your purchase. We are just saying this because we absolutely adore this thing. Like, I am incredibly excited to do my hard treadmill workout for YouTube videos soon. I want to do as many miles as I can under 4:40 pace.

[A]

Oh, fun.

[B]

Because it just sounds so exciting. Whereas doing something similar outside sounds not fun at all. I don't know what it is about this treadmill, but it makes me enjoy running so much.

[A]

Okay, you're filming with Cody tomorrow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you going to do?

[B]

I think I'm going to do the 1:1 workout. Oh, I like that swap staple that we talk about all the time and is on a lot of our Patreon training plans. I Think doing that workout and talking about how this is the ideal speed work for p. People that don't want to do speed work. Like, you can go out and do six by one minute on, one minute off. And that might be enough stimulus for athletes that are just getting into this to adapt. Doing that each week, like you can just repeat it. It's so simple.

[A]

Are you gonna wear the Puma R3s?

[B]

I am.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

They're so good.

[A]

Do you have like some hidden goal of the workout where you're like, if I. If, like, if this is successful, it means this, this.

[B]

It's successful. If I don't look like a limping old beast. Poop.

[A]

A poop.

[B]

Which is what I look like on this video that's coming out this Thursday.

[A]

Well, it's authentic.

[B]

Like, Megan, you did say multiple times as we were reviewing the video. David, you look really bad in this one.

[A]

I did not say that. I said your quads look sore.

[B]

You said my quads look sore.

[A]

I did not say anything about you looking bad.

[B]

You said it looks like I'm limping.

[A]

No, I just said your quads look sore. And they did look like your quads look sore.

[B]

Okay, maybe I'm implying different things that you said about my running form.

[A]

All I'm saying is that you looked sore.

[B]

Well, Hans filmed our run together on Mag, so people are going to get to see what it looks like when my running form isn't limited by just coming back.

[A]

But it's kind of cool because there's only three weeks between you filming with Cody on Mags and having this, like. It looked like you were quite sore, to be honest.

[B]

You looked like a piece of shit.

[A]

You look like you were going back to the earth. You were sinking to the ground. And then. You know, when you're going to see this video with Hans, it's like only three weeks of time. And I feel like that's going to allow someone to believe, like, oh, yeah. What happens when you're coming back and you've been given three weeks to train? One of which. Which you had a stomach virus in. Imagine if you had just three normal weeks.

[B]

Okay, well, I like how much you believe in me. I'm still not doing Canyon's 100k anymore.

[A]

No, no, I. I'm holding that belief like Leadville.

[B]

We talked about this on the Patreon episode. Oh, my goodness. The sickness took way too much outta me and I was already behind the eight ball, so.

[A]

But I mean, looking at that run on Mags, that's one of the best runs that you've ever done.

[B]

Well, I could do canyons if Hans would run right beside me the whole time and tell me I'm a great

[A]

coach and you are super strong.

[B]

Yeah, if Hans. If Hans could just literally hold my hand the whole time and get me young and fit, I would feel great.

[A]

I bet you Hans would fly out. He could be on our crew, but

[B]

could he literally just run next to me the whole time? Because unless he does that, I feel like you need to close proximity to the young and fit to really feel the young and fit.

[A]

Okay, you say you're not doing canyons. I say you're doing canyons. We'll see what happens in five weeks.

[B]

I appreciate and respect your game. So let's get on to Q and a. Q and A. First one is a spicy question on VO2. Start of it is in bold. I'm getting incredibly frustrated about my lack of talent and wonder whether investing my energy in running is worth it. Very relevant relative to the comment from Richard Feynman we talked about. And then not in bold anymore. My VO2 max was estimated around 70 to 71 when I was a cyclist, around 20 years old. And now a number of years later, my chorus says 62, and my whoop, 66, which seemed pretty accurate according to the reviewers. On line, I'm devouring a lot of energy. I'm devoting a lot of energy to this running thing, running myself and coaching. And even if I know I won't go to the Olympics, I wouldn't be, quote, so serious knowing I would stay at my current level of performance forever. And then they list their times. Um, it just doesn't make sense for me. According to these numbers, do you think I can dream bigger? I'd like to have results on National Trail races and maybe get down to a faster 10k and someday a faster marathon. What scares me is that I've been training for ages, and I don't see myself improving at all.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Well, this brings me back to the Richard Feynman quote of, like, it is so excited to go for it for the sake of just caring and having something that you wake up in the morning, you're like, I'm excited to go out the door. Or maybe I'm scared, or I'm just feeling something to go out the door and do this long run. And I think the feeling something part, no matter what it is, because in running, sometimes it's like I'm feeling scared, I'm feeling sad. You know, the sport is breaking Me apart. But it's also sometimes like I'm experiencing the best joy and I'm so happy to be here. And I. I think, like, experiencing that range of emotions is so worth it. And then I think training wise, just throw something different at it.

[B]

Absolutely. I think what's so tricky about this one is that, gosh, this athlete is talented and sees what they're capable of, but also understands what people are capable of at the very pointy end of human physiology.

[A]

But I think that's everyone. You know, someone racing in the world championships in the 800 looks at Keely Hodgson and is like, that's not me. And it's like there's always someone, no matter what level you're at, unless you're Keely or Tati Pagacha or whatever it is. And even then they're like, how do I. You beat history. And I think it's okay to let that go.

[B]

And that's what I wanted to point out to this athlete is like, everybody feels this way. I know that's so strange. But there are so few athletes that are just like, you know what, fully content with the exact genetic hand I was dealt. And so a couple notes on. First, on talent. You. One, you have a lot of talent. Two, you are just starting to explore it. So this athlete's in their mid-20s and

[A]

oh my gosh, they're so young.

[B]

Yeah, they're very young.

[A]

They're young and fit.

[B]

And also, as you lay down bricks, everyone's talented. Talent expresses differently. The athletes who immediately have astronomical VO2 numbers when they're young, we call those athletes talented, we signal them out and they are elevated right off the bat. But there are so many athletes that don't express that way. I mean, you look at me, I didn't have my day until I was 36. And that's when all of a sudden, things clicked. It took 18 years of base building for me to get. And yes, I was talented at baseline, but so many athletes have different talents. And if we have 10,000 different things, things that go into this amorphous term called talent, yes, one of them is VO2 max. But there's 9,999 others. And most of those require you just to show up, turn different switches and see what gets activated. And as Megan said, that means right now, throw something different in training on it. Do something totally different. See what happens, like, take some chances. In fact, I think you're probably just not taking enough chances. Go for it in a way that scares you so much. And I think you're going to blow away what you think you're capable.

[A]

And logistically, that could be a trial of miles. I don't know. This athlete's training background, it could be focusing more on speed and trying to get really fast and raise that ceiling. It could be focusing on high carb intake and using that to, like, have the recovery and adaptation. It could be adding bicarb on board. Super shoes, any number of things. And I feel like experiment with a lot of them and kind of see what happens.

[B]

Yeah, and go check out one of our training plans and just like, commit to that and then, like, maybe just increase miles. I think at the core, this athlete probably just needs to run more I. To simplify training theory a ton. That's my guess. And also, finally, on these VO2 numbers. Total bullshit. You ignore what your watch says.

[A]

The watch. I mean, Your watch is VO2. Right now. It's probably.

[B]

Let's see. I. We always. We always go to this and check. I'm checking 64 for me right now. And that's after doing this run with Hans. That was pretty darn fast at pretty low heart rate. I think it's telling everyone numbers that are basically compressing human.

[A]

Did you say 62?

[B]

64.

[A]

Oh, 62 is me. I mean, which is. I mean, I'm not two points off your VO2. That's crazy.

[B]

But the idea being that these numbers are interpolations from massive data sets, having no basis with actual oxygen consumption or anything genetic. It's using a number of different metrics which mean nothing, so definitely avoid those. That being said, we do validate where you're coming from, but just everyone out there has feelings like this. And it's not just running. I think running tough, especially for an athlete that's looking at times because you're aware of, like, where some people are, and it's like, well, why am I not there? But if we thought of parenting this way, I'm like, I'm probably this version of a dad.

[A]

I'm okay, dude, you are such a good dad.

[B]

I'm okay. No, but there's dads out there that are crushing it, Megan. I can't even get my kid to eat, like, food. I mean, maybe sometimes, but not often.

[A]

I mean, you're pretty good at Ollie and bottles. You show Ollie Moana and feed him

[B]

a bottle and he's like, that's true. Yeah, that's true.

[A]

You're the milk fan.

[B]

I am the milk fan. He looks at me and says his little word for milk, which he's like Nanya. That's my. That's my role for him. But I can't even get Leo a bath.

[A]

I mean, I can't get Leo a bath.

[B]

But the point being, yes, we. We try hard and we work our asses off and we devote our lives to it, but we're still not the, you know, Jim Walmsley of it.

[A]

But I think this is why running is such a good proxy for everything. It's because, like, you're faced and at some point you're gonna get older and you have to face, like, find your love of joy. Even in, like, period of decline and like very few other things in life, you're faced with that. So head on.

[B]

Absolutely. And I'm running into that head first right now in such a major way where.

[A]

Nah, you're young.

[B]

Yes, I am young enough for now.

[A]

For now.

[B]

But the point being, I have aged a lot in just the last couple years in the way that everyone does at certain points. And I. I feel it in my late 30s now. And it's. I'm gonna fight against that dark night. I'm gonna go for it.

[A]

Well, I know you were like, really feeling it after the stomach virus because you're like, megan, should I retire?

[B]

That was a joke. But, but the idea being, there is a point where athletes are told they can no longer do the thing anymore. In most other sports, there is no running. And so, you know, you're going to have to carry me off the field for sure. But you know that Richard Feynman quote of, like, how much you're devoting to it when you do start to face these limitations that are undeniable, right? Like, we can tell this athlete that they're going to run a 2:15 marathon, but probably not, like, realistically. They just the nature of it. And the point is, it's so beautiful knowing that. And I think that's why running is magical, is that you see these inherent limitations and decide, fuck it, we ball. You go for the thing anyway. You go for the frivolous thing. And that makes it so that in the rest of life you can show up and, you know, confront things with, like, that wise understanding that you are all decaying and you are all going into this phase where, you know, everything's uncertain and everything in life and you go forward anyway.

[A]

Damn, David, that was good. I feel like I needed to hear that myself. I think sometimes the problem that I have is, like, I love running so much. And, like, to me, there's no question of like. Like, I want to get out the door. I want to do the thing. But I think there's also so many other things I love in life, like parenting, coaching and podcasting and like, even medicine. It's like sometimes I'm like, oh, why am I not doing that? And it's when you put all of it together and time is limited, but then you say that, and I'm like, huh? I like these decisions.

[B]

Two things. One, that's also why I want to play video games one day. I want to do the most frivolous thing in Carol. But number two, that's why project Hail Mary as a book resonated with me so much. It's. It's this discussion just distilled down into like a beautiful sci fi narrative, in my opinion. And it gives me hope for things like running in the face of certain demise, you know, and that's basically what this athlete's seen too. So from a pure training perspective, run more or bike more or whatever.

[A]

There's actually a moment in the YouTube video where you're like lamenting not having enough carbs and I'm like, just run faster, David. You'll get there sooner. You'll need fewer carbs.

[B]

Yeah, because I was doing the math and I'm running too slow. I need your gel. You didn't have one on you and you said, david, just run faster. I'm like, I would if I could, Megan.

[A]

You're like, I'm too sore.

[B]

I'm too slow. Okay, next one. A friend of mine is 30, is in his late 30s with a busy life and runs once or twice a week on average. He does not consider himself a runner and has never done any structured training. He usually goes out hard for a 5K, reliably under 21 minutes, goes home, and doesn't think about running until the next week. He recently extended this run to half marathon just because and came in at 1:37 doing a wraps around his local park with zero fueling or water. We know this isn't quote, like super fast on the big scheme of professional runners, but I can't wrap my head around this, especially as I'm relatively informed he has no Norwegian heritage. How fast do you think he could finish a half if he did some kind of training?

[A]

Well, this is the exciting thing is we actually don't know. I mean, I feel like this guy probably is not Jakob Inga Brson just because I feel like we would see that even within a 5k of no training. But I feel like we don't know. He could be. We don't know.

[B]

Yeah, that's the weird part about talent. Gets back to what we said. Turn a lot of switches, do it long enough, and different things express at different times. This athlete clearly has a talent for showing up with no training. How much is that talent rewarded long term? Who knows? It might actually not be that much. I think so much of what we call talent is just training response. And, you know, the hard part is if you have a VO2 talent, everyone says you're talented. If you have this type of talent, everyone says you're talented. If your talent is training response, everyone says you're just a hard worker. And so those hard workers end up thinking, thinking, I just grind harder. It's like, no, actually you have the talent to respond to the thing you're grinding. That's what my talent is. I'm almost positive and it's a huge gift. But if I acted like I wasn't gifted from God to be able to do that, then it would also be ignoring the coolest thing about the process

[A]

for me and training response. To me, I'm just like, I love that as a coach, when you start working with an athlete and you see that talent and training response and you're like, we actually don't know where this goes. And I think that's the cool part is like, maybe this is a little bit faster. Maybe this, this is a lot faster. Maybe this is like crazy faster. And we don't actually know until he starts training.

[B]

You know what my answer is?

[A]

What?

[B]

Same as VO2 Max or similar concept. This athlete could run a one hour half marathon. Now go get to work and see what happens. Similar to VO2 Max, it's like people ask, Should I get this VO2 Max test? I'm like, no, just assume it's a hundred and act accordingly.

[A]

And go get to work.

[B]

And go get to work. Um, okay, next one on cramping. Hi David and Megan. I recently finished 50k and had a 15 plus minute PR using the swap training plans on Patreon. But I always seem to cramp in the last five miles of this race. I read that cramping can be more neuromuscular fatigue than anything else, which I assume you best train through higher volume. How do you prevent cramping in neuromuscular fatigue for longer distances? As you are well known for lower total training volume at the 100 mile distance.

[A]

I feel like we, we have approaches that are lower training volume to get athletes to still perform really well and to win and often have like very strong performances at the High level. But we also have big training volumes too. And I'm like, how are we only known for this, this? But we coach on such a range.

[B]

I think it's because we don't just do one size fits all.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

You know, Han Shorter is doing 120 mile weeks all the time.

[A]

Oh, Hans is doing big training constantly.

[B]

And a lot of that includes uphill treadmill. So he's doing. But that's. Hans absorbs it. He doesn't bike. And he's young and fit. You know, like, it works perfectly. Other athletes, I'm just so much more like Taylor. I'm going to keep her volume lower because she's cross training, but she's still doing plenty of training. Like, we want people to train, just not like drill yourself into the ground for tons of miles. Unless it has a physiological purpose.

[A]

Well, actually, I was having that reflection is. I think one of my proudest thing of a coach is the number of women over 40 that have had gotten golden tickets through swap. And I think, like, you know, we actually have a really high number of athletes over 40 with golden tickets. And I think it comes down to some of these.

[B]

You say we. You mean you coach Megan?

[A]

No, no, I think. I think you've contributed to that too.

[B]

I don't think I have. I think some late 30s women have gotten golden tickets for me, but no, close enough.

[A]

Close enough.

[B]

Man, it's bonkers what you done. Okay, but you're such a great coach.

[A]

Okay, but I'm just saying that, like, I do think these approaches are sometimes better for building power. Uh, but we also coach very high volume, too. It just depends.

[B]

It just depends. And when it comes to cramping, there's so many different elements involved. And this is a tricky place of research and practice. So in the research, it says electrolytes don't matter, for example, in reality, they clearly do. And the question is how much? It's not the sole determining factor for this athlete. I would really look at your. Your hydration and electrolyte total first. Second, I would look at your fueling. So high carb negates so much of cramps in people, and it likely gets back to the same thing we were looking at with the mouth study. There is a neuromuscular nervous system response that happens. If you have enough carbs on board, you're probably gonna be okay. Most cramping happens when athletes are also glycogen depleted. It's very rare that you see cramping without also seeing glycogen. Depletion. And the hard part is you can't really simulate glycogen depletion in studies that well. Well, thus it avoids it. But the combination of fueling and electrolytes is a huge place to look before you get to the training.

[A]

And I think get your electrolytes tested. So this is an area of like doing a sweat test could be helpful. We love the precision test, which just looks at the amount of sodium per liter of fluid that you need to intake. Roughly. These are all very approximate.

[B]

Yeah. Using the cystic fibrosis test, which is very cool and strange.

[A]

It's also great because you just get to sit there and they put an electrode on you and you hang out and get some numbers.

[B]

If I knew that, I would have gotten these so much sooner. I always thought I had to go run on a treadmill. And I'm like, no, thank you. I do not want to wear a mask or whatever. Get my butt swabbed down your butt. Have them taken my astrophage for sampling.

[A]

You got some good astrophage?

[B]

I don't know, Megan. As you age, a lot happens in all different places. When I'm cutting my hair, I cut my own hair and I just use. I do a few swipes on the back end. I do because I can't see it, but I just know. So I grew up with my dad. There's hair growing in places I don't want there to be.

[A]

Do you want me to do the swipes for you? That seems a little safer.

[B]

No, no, I absolutely do not want that. I worry that you. Believe me, I know. In fact, that's the most beautiful thing in the world of not. Not my backside and hair. But on self consciousness. So, you know, I just made a self conscious comment, worried about Megan would leave me. And last week we were just both working in the bedroom and I.

[A]

Which was like our sickness cave.

[B]

Our sickness cave at the time. And I was just telling her, megan, I have something serious to tell you. Which is a big deal on our.

[A]

I kind of panicked. I was like, oh, my God.

[B]

And I just said, look, if you ever want me to get my crooked tick teeth fixed.

[A]

Crooked ticket. Yeah, I'd be great with that too.

[B]

I mean, you might prefer it.

[A]

Honestly. This is my real kink.

[B]

Your real kink is a kink to the right. So I was like, if you ever want me to get my crooked teeth fixed, please tell me, because it's a deep insecurity of mine. I was told to get braces as a kid and I Refused. And my parents didn't force me to because I was a very headstrong child.

[A]

You still are. This is why if you refuse on a font, I'm like, it's just, it's going to be the font David wants.

[B]

I'm still a headstrong child. Yes. And you're just like, what the fuck? I have never once thought about that. Yeah.

[A]

Which is true.

[B]

It's so beautiful.

[A]

I was like doing deep work and my genuine response was, what the fuck?

[B]

You're coming to me with a serious comment.

[A]

You want to get braces?

[B]

No, no, not want to. But I was saying if you want it, because it's a self conscious point of mine and it's a beautiful thing.

[A]

I literally not once have ever thought about your teeth in our relationship.

[B]

Well, it's just unconditional love and it means so much to me and I have no idea how that got to. I was talking about hair on butts

[A]

and now we're here. But like, seriously, there is not one part of me that is like, your teeth are crooked. You're even. You're not showing me them right now. No, no. You're like, don't, don't, don't evaluate. But they're beautiful.

[B]

Well, thank you.

[A]

They could be on like right angles and I just feel like I love those teeth.

[B]

Well, they kind of are, Megan. Okay, but so back to the cramping. Those are the first places to look and it's a place physiologists might actually avoid. But every coach who works in this area with high performing athletes who cramp will understand. I think it really helps for me to have been a creative cramp boy. I used to cramp all the time. It used to be my biggest limiter. And now I never cramp unless I under fuel. So if I under fuel, I might cramp still, but not so much a problem. I think bicarb also helps with that as a nutritional intervention.

[A]

And then I think things to like address fatigue resistance at the end of races. This is where like single leg step ups, like you know, doing some efforts at the ends of runs, like a five minute hard hill at the end of a long run, I feel like starts to train some of this like fatigue resistance. And yeah, maybe there's like a few little pathways here of improving that. But I do think it's largely electrolyte

[B]

and fueling driven strength work can help as well.

[A]

Single leg step ups.

[B]

Yeah. And maybe more comprehensive strength work too. Our speed or ultra legs routines are, might be very good for this. For this athlete. And then finally steep downhills. So training steep downhills, the eccentric contractions aren't just a muscular resilience response. And that's why it's so important, is also a nervous system response. And when you talk about cramping, you're always looking to nervous system because it's not. Not. There's no reason to cramp from a fatigue perspective. Really. It is a nervous system failure in the body. And anyone who's had cramps understands this. It's like, why is it doing this thing right now? It hurts so much. Um, and so anything that touches your brain, so everything that touches fatigue resistance will probably also touch cramping. And yeah, at the end of the day, volume will be the main way to achieve most of those goals. But it's much more complicated than that. And at the end of the day, fueling is the biggest thing. Carbs will prevent a lot of your cramp issues if you are a cramp athlete. Athlete. And electrolytes too, as well.

[A]

Yeah, carbs and electrolyte for the win. David, you're talking right now with your lips below your teeth. Are you trying to hide them?

[B]

No, actually, I think I've just adapted that over many years.

[A]

I'm like, shine those teeth.

[B]

No, I literally think that's a defense mechanism I have built up over decades.

[A]

I mean, it's interesting because it's like your lips hang low. It's like, do your lips hang well?

[B]

Do they wobble to and fro?

[A]

You're doing a great dance. There you go. Oh, you full teeth grin. I want to say. Okay, did you ever smile without teeth growing up?

[B]

Like, I always. I always went for it on smiles because I'm like, it's never worth not smiling.

[A]

Oh, yeah, it's worth. It's worth the full. The full teeth.

[B]

I'll always go full teeth. I've said that ever since I was a little kid. Always go full teeth. Okay, next question. Hello, David and Megan. I hope you guys are doing well after your illness and are willing to talk about food always. Clearly, we only talk about food this episode. Uh, I need some advice and my coaches haven't been useful. Oops. That's brutal to say. Um, I've realized I have may have been accidentally under fueling these past few weeks. I went to elevation for a week and didn't focus on eating as much as I should have. I came back from spring break to eat to lots of school and some shifts. I haven't been snacking as much and have mainly just been eating meals My period is now four days late and I'm never late. I haven't been racing well and haven't been able to concentrate. I plan on making eating a priority and getting some satisfaction bombs. If I make sure to do this. Do you guys think I'm still good to keep training the same? Thank you for answering my last question, which we did on Patreon.

[A]

Yeah, I think this is an area where it's like gets back to my shava title of like throw some burgers on it and some master face do. And I feel like this is an area where an athlete has had consistent periods and it seems like they've been fueling their body well and it's just had this like short term period of low energy availability and it's like throw some satisfaction bombs on that, throw some burgers on that. I think it's okay to keep training as is as long as you're getting in those big meals and focusing also on fueling a lot during training too. This is an area where like even like 90 minute, 80 minute runs, I would fuel those at 90 plus grams of carbs an hour and get everything on board hormonally to like start getting that period.

[B]

Yeah. Also make sure you're not pregnant. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, true. Yeah, that's a good background.

[B]

No, I assume, I assume they understand that. Um, yeah, I think I see this a lot. So this is not just a hypothetical for this athlete. Uh, I've talked about this before but, but coached coaching a pro athlete, they missed a period when they are usually pretty regular or like five or six

[A]

days late, which even that is, you know, if you're super regular and you're five or six days late, one period,

[B]

that's a sign this athlete ended up being weeks late, ended up getting their period. But the way they got it was one, we dialed back training intensity just a bit. So your volume is probably okay, you can keep doing volume but dial back that intensity very similar to swap down weeks. Our approach to down weeks isn't to dial back volume necessarily, it's keep volume him up but to dial back intensity because intensity is the most stress and then just satisfaction bomb the fuck out of it. So this athlete I was talking about, I think they did 17 days of red meat in a row because they understood for them that was the signal for their brain to get back into this cycle. And sure enough they did. And they are now rocking and rolling beyond belief. And if they hadn't done that, that's how you know, some negative pathways might start. Um, so Keeps coming back to satisfaction. Bonds. The way you framed the. That is changing the world for a lot of women in particular. But that approach to fueling is basically the simple way to approach nutrition as an athlete, that changes everything.

[A]

Well, it's funny, when I coined that, I kind of panicked a little bit because I was like, I don't like anything to do with bombs.

[B]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[A]

And I just used the term bomb. Oops. It just kind of came out. But that's how I visualize those, like big meals. And I think it's great. I think the other thing too is every so often with like being a little bit late on a period or missing a period, sometimes it's due to life stress as opposed to like caloric intake. But I think that's a sign too that like you should back off a little bit in training and also increase fueling. Anyways. Um, and so sometimes I've seen that like in athletes that have like periods of deep grief or loss or like a major life event, sometimes that also pushes back the period too.

[B]

Absolutely. Some athlete that just thinks a little bit about their teeth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can't get an erection for four years after that. Okay, do we want to do anxiety or we should we wrap this one up?

[A]

Let's do anxiety as the last one. Okay.

[B]

This is a big one.

[A]

Big one. I will. We can answer it. I think it's good. Kind of a simple.

[B]

Well, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. I think we go down.

[A]

I think too much. Let's bring this. Can we make sure to do this one next week?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This is talking about an athlete that's like stepping up their training. And whenever they go long in training or harder workouts, they feel a little bit of like existential angst and anxiety, which actually I see happen sometimes.

[B]

Yeah. Good, good summary, good preview. Let's do a couple questions. Actually, I, I love these. And they've been on their outline for 20 weeks.

[A]

Are we gonna, Are you gonna say. Say it? Are we gonna rapid fire?

[B]

Oh, are you gonna rapid fire?

[A]

Are you gonna say it?

[B]

Take a drink when I say rapid fire. Here's the first one. Hi, quick question. Inflammation is the body's way to heal, right? Then should we not take anti inflammatory supplements like tart cherry every day? Have I read this one before? No, I feel like I have maybe limited to just before hard or after hard workouts. I've had a small soft tissue injury leftovers and I'm wondering if tart cherry every day might have been a mistake.

[A]

Well, I feel like for a lot of Athletes, if you are pushing hard in training and you are training, you know, at higher volumes or, you know, incorporating higher intensity work within your training, I feel like infl inflammation is often the limiter consistently. And this is an area where I think it's totally okay. Like, it might be different if we're like taking an Aleve or an nsaid like every single day. And I might be like, okay, we're probably limiting adaptation pathways there if you're doing that over a longer term. But with tart cherry, which is like, you know, so much smaller anti inflammation pathways than something like an ED said, I think it's totally okay when you're faced with inflammation on the daily from like a harder training schedule.

[B]

Absolutely. It's kind of like, like I'm trying to think of an example where you're like, oh, well, I use fire it. It helps brown my marshmallow. Right. For s'. Mores. So should I avoid like a nuclear weapon to the face or whatever, which is kind of like what you inflammation does. That was a terrible amount.

[A]

Yeah, that was. You saw my bombs and you're like, I'm just gonna lean in.

[B]

I went for it, but it just didn't work.

[A]

It didn't work.

[B]

People see where I'm trying to come from. The idea being that athletic inflammation when you're training hard can be so high that the smallest steps you can take to reduce it are a good thing and will help you. And that's why when you work with professional athletes, almost all of them at the top level, when they're being advised, like on cycling, teams are doing things to manage it, like massages every day in cycling and things like tart cherry. They're not trying to say, hey, this inflammation is an adaptive response that I need to harness. Um, could there be limitations there? Like, if you're training? Not that much. Yeah, for sure. Should it be nsaid? No. Should it be ice baths? Probably not. That might be a little bit too strong, depending on the exact.

[A]

Or it's just miserable.

[B]

Or it's just miserable. But like dietary interventions, things like that. I think training hard is a fight against inflammation. And so figuring out ways to limit inflammation for yourself can be productive.

[A]

And I think some athletes are especially prone to inflammation. And that's such as, unfortunately, a genetic context. Like, for me, some of the heart issues that we've seen. I think I'm very prone to inflammation. And so, yeah, I'm drinking that tart cherry daily.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, next one on coaching. Real Talk Roach coaching academy. I had a random Thought about if you made some sort of training or boot camp first. Coaches, is this something you have ever thought about? I'm a recently certified running coach and was thinking it would be cool to get all of your coaching insights and knowledge in one place. Thanks for everything you do. I have been glued to any and all roach content since I got into ultras and discovered you before Western states last year.

[A]

It would be so fun to do that. But also like time, man.

[B]

Yeah, that. Yeah, also.

[A]

Also like it would. Well, it's. The thing is like I think we have a hard time taking anything and presenting it as extremely concrete. Our coaching academy would be like, maybe

[B]

Patreon is a coaching academy if you want to read between the lines of all of the stuff. But it's definitely not saying this is how you should do things. I want to hear how people are doing things differently and then learn from them because that's how it all happens. Also, also I kind of wonder whether like any coaching certification is really all that beneficial that I've seen. We don't have certifications. We get, you know, messages all the time from people that are saying like they can't be taken seriously until they have that. Like there's no gatekeeping in this industry. Like you don't have to have that. And sometimes I see people post online where they're like, you can't do this unless you have this certification. This certification. Like that is so weird. Why would you need that? And maybe one of the things I'm most proud of of as a coach myself is to go to some of these like Olympic to get behind the scenes at like the Olympic trials or whatever. You need to have a coaching certification. It's part of the deal with us atf. I don't have a coaching certification and I'm not going to take one because I don't have time. So how did I get in? I got in through career accomplishments they call it where if you coach athletes at, you know, the world level enough, they just say, you know, you're fine. But the point being like you still

[A]

do have to do safe sport, which is awesome.

[B]

Oh yeah, that's, that's great. But I mean like they're learning about like athletics stuff. But I think the point being if you feel that there is some big gate that you have to jump in to do coaching, you don't. You can learn by being open minded and consuming as much content as you can from places like our Patreon and others and develop your own theory. And that's what I want to see is people develop their own theory so I can learn from them.

[A]

Would you do the USATF certification if you got Gatorade slushies for it? So to get. To get the backstage pass, you get Gatorade slushies, like at USATF event events and championship meets. It's kind of worth it. If you didn't have that fast track, like, via coaching credentials. Would you take the certification program for a Gatorade slushie?

[B]

I would do anything for red dye number 40 slushy. Absolutely anything.

[A]

Oh, should we get an icy at the movie theater today?

[B]

No, I don't want to be cold in the theater.

[A]

Oh, true.

[B]

You would freeze.

[A]

I would freeze. You're right.

[B]

We'll get popcorn.

[A]

Popcorn. Should we get anything else? Should we get a big soda?

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

I'm have to pee a thousand times, but it's worth it.

[B]

No, no, no. We're not getting soda unless we bring a catheter. You are not leaving in this theater. Megan.

[A]

We could just use the. The reach out to eat all the popcorn and then use the bucket.

[B]

Oh, perfect. Other people are like, you know, sticking their. The bucket over their situation and cutting a hole in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, we're gonna be sticking it over a situation and just pissing.

[A]

Yeah. Be like all that hydration.

[B]

Oh, I'm so excited. Yeah. I don't know if I should say

[A]

this, but, you know, this should be good.

[B]

Well, no, no, it's not that good. But we talked about USATF the other week and had this really critical podcast, and they came around and ended up turning out great. I found out I get a grant from usatf. A financial grant.

[A]

Pretty substantial, actually.

[B]

I mean, sweet. But from coaching, which shows that USATF really does mean well.

[A]

I thought that was cool. Thank you, usatf.

[B]

I should probably donate that, though, after. Yeah, no, just as appreciation to young coaches. I feel like maybe actually we can do with that grant from usatf, some sort of young coach coach thing on Patreon.

[A]

That's actually a great idea or whatever.

[B]

I don't know. Exactly.

[A]

I love that. Let's do it.

[B]

We'll figure it out.

[A]

I think supporting, like, up and coming coaches. So anyone who's, like, starting a business through coaching, sometimes it's hard to get started financially at the start. And, like, having a little bit of a stipend would go a long ways. Yeah.

[B]

And there's so much, like I said, of gatekeeping of young coaches online, especially women coaches. Yeah. It's one of the things we hate the most. And we're going to be more vocal about if we ever see it again. Like in the past. I think we didn't want to be, you know, ruffling feathers too much when we were young, young coaches. But if we ever see that again, I think we just use our platform to go like scorched earth.

[A]

We're coming for the feathers.

[B]

Yeah, we're coming for the feathers.

[A]

The feathers are gonna be scorched.

[B]

Okay, you wanna go in the listener corner?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

But do we have something to talk about before then? Janji, this is your cue. The one thing that you're supposed to bring in is the Janji promo.

[A]

John G. Do you like the bra that I'm wearing right now?

[B]

It's great.

[A]

It's pink. It's actually pink this time.

[B]

Nailed the colors.

[A]

Don't you love the johnji pink? Yeah, I've been loving. Okay, hold on. I'm bringing up. This is a shirt you need to protect.

[B]

It's a different bra than the long bra, isn't it?

[A]

This is the pace bra, I believe. And I love this one.

[B]

It looks so good. So paste bra, long bra. You love John G bras.

[A]

I love the long bra has a. Holds a phone in the back. And this one I love for, like, looks. Okay. The women's run all day tee is so good. It is like, I've been under this new thing of, like, trying not to run in sports bras all the time from, like, a skin coverage perspective. And the run all day tee feels like I am not running in a T shirt.

[B]

Oh, gosh. We need to look at what the shirt I was wearing with Hans was because I got.

[A]

That's the run all day tea. Oh, is it in green?

[B]

Okay. Yeah. I got the run all day in bright greens. Kind of a St. Patrick's Day vibe.

[A]

Actually, I got it for you.

[B]

Okay. Yes.

[A]

I get most of your John Jacobs

[B]

and I got so many comments on Instagram.

[A]

Oh, did you really?

[B]

Of people loving the shirt?

[A]

I love the color. The color is, like electric on you.

[B]

Yeah. So janji.com, j a n j I.com

[A]

yeah, this is the Pace sports bra that I'm wearing right now. It has. Do you like the back?

[B]

I really got. So the. The long bra. Oh, yes. The long bra looks like performance driven. And so it's beautiful, but performance driven. This looks like date night.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Date night performance.

[A]

You're like, I would do some master face things, that bra.

[B]

No, no. I mean, I don't want to like objectify you. I'm just saying, like, it's kind of toeing that line. Like it has some cool designs going on in. You can tell I'm not really a fashion guy. I really just.

[A]

My favorite thing is like, David, you need to sell the bra that I am wearing.

[B]

Well, what I really want you to do is just put on the full length astronaut suit again.

[A]

Should I put it back on over top of this bra?

[B]

Well, not now because you're gonna get it hot.

[A]

But like, I mean, we only have five minutes left. I can do it.

[B]

Yeah, put it back on.

[A]

Okay. Describe what? Okay, now you gotta describe this suit.

[B]

Megan's up higher. If you heard different sound there. So it is pure pink.

[A]

There's a ton of pockets.

[B]

It's for some reason has a big label on the chain chest that just says astronaut. Oh. And then in the upper left of it, it says no hero. Probably not coming from the United States here. So just no hero. Astronaut. You're not a hero, Megan. You're just an astronaut.

[A]

Honestly, I don't want to be.

[B]

But then on the other side it says superhero. Astronaut. Superhero. Astronaut.

[A]

It's a confused hero.

[B]

Yeah, it is a confused hero. And on the other side it says no hero. Space shuttle. And on the other side it says superhero.

[A]

I know, right?

[B]

You contain multitudes.

[A]

I do contain multitudes. The space suit is exactly how I feel. Some days I'm like, I fucking great. Other days I'm like, this is low confidence. Probably depends on how many burgers I had.

[B]

Okay, can you go back to the outline?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You're on the John G website right now. Okay, Here is listener corner this week. I wanted to thank you both, of course, especially Megan, for the open and honest discussion around Megan's heart issues. I'm a back of the pack runner, so not a pro. But I love endurance sports and get so much joy out of them. I have a migraine that has gone through the roof the last couple of years and training is a major episode trigger for me. The narrator voice would have things to say about my previous message to you, which was on Patreon and was going back and forth about other things. I have friends who share my love of sports and friends who share the living with chronic illness, but not really friends who would share the clusterfuck of loving sports while having a condition that gets worse from it. Is it okay to do a couple of strides even though that might take me out from my job and from household stuff for a day? I don't know. But I still do Them Sometimes when I long for the feeling of speed and power, does it make any sense to try out a medication that will cost an arm and a leg even after reimbursement? But that might enable me to do more than just short Z1 sessions. Sessions? I don't know. But I'm currently waiting to get a waiver for the reimbursements. And do I even have the right to make the health care system, which is public and tax supported where I live, reimburse that crazy expensive medication so that I might be able to enjoy my hobby more? I don't know. I really don't know. So I'm lucky to be able to hear you two share your thoughts. To hear someone else and someone I respect a lot pondering similar thoughts as I have. The sadness, the uncertainty, the theoretical and actual trade offs you are willing to do do the second guessing. Also the hope, the love that forces you to be hopeful and the love induced memory loss that enables you to be hopeful. Whoops, this got long and I got emotional. But thanks once again. Huzzah.

[A]

No, I'm emotional hearing that. Just thinking about, you know, someone out there dealing with the uncertainty of a long term illness and trying to do that in the context of building and running and getting out there and experiencing that joy. Am I to heart just goes out to you. The stuff is hard. But then at the same time too it's like, you know there comes that time of like the love induced memory loss where you get back out there and you're like it is so worth it.

[B]

This is so much are coming from a pink astronaut. I just want to get clear on that.

[A]

A pink very like hot astronaut on the surface level. Astronaut. I need a red ic. Give me a red dye ic.

[B]

Goodness gracious. But this is so, so amazing. And yeah it's hard because this is very specific and clear of this thing might cause this and it leads to this mind fuck. But every single person in life feels this on someone level that the things we care about and love might also be tied to things that might lead you down different paths and you just never know. Like basically all of life leads you down these kind of scary clusterfuck mind like situations. And when that happens, I don't know, just embracing the clusterfucking the love of it is so beautiful.

[A]

And I think to me that's the biggest mind in my heart Journey has been seeing it now tied to training when it never really was. It was tied to viruses and other things things. And my heart goes out to this listener of having Migraine tied to training. Because it's like, to me, it feels like you're constantly making decisions of joy on one hand and health on the other. And it just becomes really hard. And I think you're just have to live life in trying to experience as much joy as possible and do your best and I think advocate for yourself on the medication. Actually with migraines now, there's a lot of good medications on the market and try the very best. Advocate for yourself. It is 100% worth it.

[B]

The doctor was talking about heart medication that might be an option for Megan if this continues.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

[B]

And so then I made a joke, as I would in this situation, very serious, tense situation where I'm like, do you think they listen to podcasts and may want to be willing to do a sponsorship? And the doctor was like, yes, perhaps that might be an opportunity.

[A]

The doctor was like, you should reach out. It's Regeneron Pharmaceuticals.

[B]

Oh, my God. Hey, Regeneron.

[A]

Regeneron us up, yo. Regeneron. It would be great if it was Roach Pharmaceuticals and then we would like, really make a case for it.

[B]

Destiny.

[A]

But I'm missing, like one of the markers. So, like, my EKG meets like the recurrent criteria to get it done. But, like, my CRP isn't always meeting that criteria with like every episode I've had. So I'm like, I could also just like, go try to get a cold and like, run down a mountain and get a high CRP and see if I can meet the, like, the full criteria as it's spelled out.

[B]

And if none of this works out, we can probably get a sponsor sponsorship from big popcorn containers where you can

[A]

cut holes in the bottom and just like, maybe that's actually a good disclaimer.

[B]

This is all coming from people that are going to be pissing into popcorn bowls in just a few hours.

[A]

We should start every podcast episode be like this. Science is brought to you by popcorn pissers. Very hot popcorn pissers. Actually, the problem with a spacesuit is I gotta take the whole thing off to piss.

[B]

That's true. Or we could just. Just like, in there. No, just go for it in there.

[A]

I mean, maybe it may be cooler eventually.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just mid race cooling, pre cooling. If you're not pissing yourself. Do you really care about project Hail Mary? I don't think so. Okay. We love you all.