306. How the GOAT Fuels, Single v. Double Workouts, Heat and Altitude Study, Caffeine Genotypes, and Building Bone Density!

Summary

Some Work, All Play – Episode 306: How the GOAT Fuels, Single v. Double Workouts, Heat and Altitude Study, Caffeine Genotypes, and Building Bone Density!

Hosts: David Roche and Megan Roche
Date: April 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is classic SWAP: the Roches bring deep science, wild enthusiasm, and lots of humor to a packed agenda of running science, training, fueling, and life. Topics include: shoe hacks-gone-wrong, Megan’s breakthrough in bone density, cutting-edge studies on fueling, heat and altitude adaptation, double workouts, caffeine genetics, and a thorough look at super shoes. As always, they flavor it all with playful banter and love—for each other, athletes, and science. This summary highlights key segments, practical takeaways, and memorable quotes as you journey through podcast #306.

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Table of Contents

• Shoe Experiments & Fails – 00:04–04:30
• Bone Density—Megan’s Breakthrough – 07:20–15:02
• Boston Marathon Plans & Weather Obsessions – 15:02–16:33
• Fueling: The GOAT, Tae Pagacha, and Carb Insights – 21:07–31:54
• Heat + Altitude Science – 32:15–41:51
• Single vs. Double Workout Study – 46:40–52:47
• Caffeine Genotype Study – 52:53–62:47
• Super Shoes and Injury Risk – 67:03–70:19
• Listener Q&A Highlights – 70:51–85:00
• Listener Corner: Showing Up & Self-Compassion – 87:07–End

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Shoe Experiments & Fails (00:04–04:30)

David’s DIY Attempts

• David tests out the new Adidas Agravic Speed Ultra 2, finds it heavier than its predecessor.
• Extreme solution: “I took this knife and just chopped off some unnecessary lugs…” (01:13)
• Loads of shoe slicing and even lacing hacks, resulting in a lighter shoe but a compromised sole—full shoe deconstruction led to a blown-out outsole on Green Mountain.

Quote:
“I got the weight down. But at what cost?” – David (03:22)

Reflection:

• Running shoe performance is personal, but DIY hacks might structurally damage shoes.
• Ultimately settles on the HOKA Rocket X Trail, accepting toe damage in exchange for weight savings.

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Bone Density—Megan’s Breakthrough (07:20–15:02)

Megan’s Health History:

• History of long-term prednisone for autoimmune issues seriously reduced her bone density.
• Despite consistently normal periods, her DEXA scans previously showed low spine density.

The Big Reveal:

• Megan improved her spinal bone density by 1.1 SD in one year with targeted nutrition, recovery, and non-traditional strength work.

Practical Insights on Building Bone

• High-carb fueling, especially on runs over 60 minutes.
• Focused on daily recovery fueling (Science in Sport Beta Recovery, real food like burgers, etc.).
• Thorne supplements (Advanced Bone Builder, Vitamin D, calcium).
• Consistent cross-training, child-lifting (“he’s a heavy kettlebell!” (11:14)), and daily-life “weight vest walks.”
• Limited traditional plyometrics/strength due to inflammation—key message: diverse ways to load bones work.

Quotes:

• “Whatever number you have is not your destiny.” – David (09:09)
• “It was so exciting...now when I do strides, I’m like, these are my plyometrics.” – Megan (13:32)

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Boston Marathon Plans & Weather Obsessions (15:02–16:33)

• The Roches are heading to Boston—excited for a “date weekend.”
• David obsesses over weather patterns: “It looks like a tailwind...it’s gonna be spicy!” (15:22)
• Shout-outs for runners Jess McLean and Amanda Vestry.
• Megan’s logistical concerns: “How are we going to get around the course? Have we thought about that yet?” (15:49)
• E-bike debate: more insurance money jokes, less parental safety.

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Fueling: The GOAT, Tae Pagacha, and Carb Insights (21:07–31:54)

Ultra-Endurance Fueling by the Numbers:

• Discussing Enervit’s profile of Tadej Pogačar (pro cyclist) and his staggering fueling plan:
  • Breakfast (3 hr pre-race): 250g carbs, 40g protein, 30g fat
  • Pre-race: 60g carbs, 5g protein, 3g fat
  • During: 130g carbs/hour with minimal protein/fat
  • Post-race: 120g protein
  • Total for the day: ~7,400 kcal, 1,500g carbs

Runner Takeaways:

• Carbs are king—even the highest-level female cyclists now hitting >100g/hour during.
• Runners typically eat less pre-race, but hosts highlight missed performance opportunities.
• High carb fueling is gaining traction, but skepticism remains—especially in trail/ultra communities.
• Female runners notably under-fuel compared to their metabolic needs.

Quotes:

• “The fueling isn’t just within the race... you kinda just need to keep the fire burning.” – David (25:14)
• “The idea being that...if you looked at your fitness in a snapshot in time...the same applies with fuel.” – David (27:35)

Funniest Moment:

• Carb fueling as “the mullet of nutrition: business on the top, party on the back.” (22:54)

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Heat + Altitude Science (32:15–41:51)

Breakthrough Study Review:

• New research overturns old wisdom that heat training “cancels out” altitude adaptation.
• Study: 46 elite skiers/biathletes at 6,000 ft. Three groups: (1) altitude + heat suit workouts, (2) altitude only, (3) sea level.
  • Result: Heat+altitude group saw nearly 3% hemoglobin mass gain, while altitude-only <1.5%; sea level, none.

Implications:

• Combining passive heat (e.g., “heat snacks” in saunas/tubs) with altitude = more red blood cells, potentially better performance.
• Iron supplementation is crucial alongside these interventions (all altitude groups received iron).

Quotes:

• “Heat, you throw it on in almost any circumstance and it does this change…” – David (39:09)
• “It’s just relaxing for the most part...you don’t need to kill yourself.” – David (38:20)

Memorable Moment:

• Megan’s perfect recovery formula: “Pizza with ranch dressing and a bath... that’s all the foreplay you need.” (41:51)

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Single vs. Double Workout Study (46:40–52:47)

Study in a Nutshell:

• Compared 1 x 60 min threshold (6x10min uphill) vs 2 x 30 min threshold (2x3x10min, 6h apart)
• All athletes fueled with 70g carbs/hr

Results & Coaching Take:

• Single sessions: More acute fatigue, higher perceived effort (“drift” in HR/lactate); doubles: less next-day fatigue, better for high-volume athletes.
• For most, occasional “drifty” workouts (single, big session) are beneficial—a big stimulus is good if you’re not going for mega-volume.

Quotes:

• “The drift is actually a good physiological signal rather than a bad one.” – Megan (49:41)
• “If you’re only doing one or two workouts [a week], you might want the bigger stimulus…” – David (49:28)

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Caffeine Genotype Study (52:53–62:47)

Key Study:

• 94 athletes, analyzed the CYP1A2 gene (AA = fast metabolizer, AC = intermediate, CC = slow).
• All groups, even slow metabolizers, got performance benefits from caffeine—though to varying degrees.
  • Fast: 4–12% improved lift velocity
  • Intermediate: 3–9%
  • Slow: up to 4%

Practical Tips:

• If caffeine upsets your system, you may be CC (slow). Gentler doses (e.g., Megan’s 25mg gels) are safer.
• Most people are intermediate or fast and can try 100mg/2hrs strategy in long races (with caution).

Quotes:

• “Caffeine basically helps everybody. It’s just a matter of how much.” – David (53:14)
• “For a lot of studies...I’ve had this vibe that slow metabolizers, caffeine has an ergolytic effect....but here it is, it’s ergogenic!” – Megan (57:36)

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Super Shoes and Injury Risk (67:03–70:19)

Study Summary:

• Compared Nike Vaporfly (super shoe), Invincible (cushion shoe), Brooks Levitate (traditional) in 30 runners.
• Vaporfly improved running economy, no increase in biomechanical injury risk factors.
• Invincible had lower “load rate” (impact stress) than others.
• Myth-busting: Super shoes are NOT inherently riskier; running faster due to these shoes may increase load instead.

Quotes:

• “People are like, 'Oh, you’re going to get injured.' The more we see on this, the more...the shoe that doesn’t protect you might be higher load rate.” – David (68:50)
• “It’s shoes... it’s not science, it’s fashion.” – Megan (69:08)

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Listener Q&A Highlights (70:51–85:00)

On Sleep and Training Adjustments

• Emphasis on not panicking over poor sleep—consistency trumps perfection.
• Most athletes can maintain training even on interrupted sleep, unless chronic/debilitating.
• Practical sleep tips: early bedtime, bedtime routine, adaptable sleep aids (Dream Shot, Sleep Elite).

Quote:
“Taking the pressure off is the first step...Being relaxed, that counts as sleep.” – David (71:57)

On Video Games & Cross Training

• Listener tip: Use aero bars and a game controller to play video games on long indoor bike rides.
• David’s classic: “Perfect Dark” as his video game of choice.

Miscellaneous Fun

• Megan’s bra talk—a John G. long bra and race bra changed listeners’ running lives.
• Megan grew up playing Crash Bandicoot; David champions Perfect Dark and N64 nostalgia.

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Listener Corner: Showing Up & Self-Compassion (87:07–End)

Listener Letter:

• A runner shares how meeting the Roches at Western States motivated them to start—and finish!—their first 50-miler (top 25%).
• Letter highlights the healing power of community, permission to fail, and showing up.

Quotes:

• “If you do this, what else can you do in life?” – David (91:03)
• “What happens if you give yourself permission to fail and to take a chance...A lot of cool things happen.” – Megan (89:02)

Personal Updates:

• David announces he won’t run Canyons 100K (thus, no Western States this year), taking care and self-compassion over grind-at-all-costs.
• Reflection on moving through disappointment: “You need a period of grieving for that goal.”

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Memorable Moments

• Shoe hacking: David slicing lugs off a new trail shoe, only to destroy the sole. (01:13–03:17)
• Bone density gains against medical odds, and Megan’s joyful “bone gains” celebrations (07:20–13:32)
• Carb math: The hosts break down insane fueling numbers for the world’s best cyclists (21:07–25:31)
• Banter peak: “Pizza with ranch in the bath...that’s all the foreplay you need.” (41:51)
• Witty self-ownership: Megan “roasting” David; “I’m a humor bottom.” (70:41–70:43)
• Classic listener impact: SWAP community literally changing lives and finishing huge goals.

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Key Takeaways

• There’s no single way to build bone density: Fueling, varied loading, and self-knowledge matter most.
• Carbohydrates power performance—don’t be afraid to fuel big, especially if cycling and racing long.
• Heat training + altitude is a winning combo (with iron!), overturning outdated beliefs.
• Listen to your body for sleep and recovery, but don’t stress over perfection.
• Even “slow” caffeine metabolizers benefit, but dose accordingly.
• Super shoes don’t cause more injuries—running faster does.
• Most of all: Show up, try the hard things, and don’t judge yourself for the outcome.

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As always: “We love you all!” – David & Megan

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[B]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday, and we're firing up our best kitchen knives on this Tuesday.

[A]

Oh, yeah, kitchen knives. I was getting well acquainted with the knife last week.

[B]

You really were actually not too well acquainted, which was my fear. You were cutting towards your body.

[A]

Okay. I did cut my finger a little

[B]

bit, but that's unsurprising.

[A]

It was worth it. And so this was all about science. So we've talked about my issue with trail shoes in the past, and the Adidas Agrivic Speed Ultra 2 came out, and it gained so much weight, so I really got methodical with this test. So the ASU one, the shoe that I wore for Leadville and all of my other races was 9.38 ounces in my size. The ASU2 is 10.2 ounces in my size. And so I thought, well, if weight is the disqualifying factor here, you know what we have to do? Shed off some of that weight.

[B]

And you are doing it by cutting off the loves with a steak knife. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, obviously there's better ways to do this. You could use a belt sander. But do I seem like the type of guy that has a belt sander at home?

[B]

You did order a Sander for $5 on Amazon, and it was terrible.

[A]

Yeah, just a little. Kind of like a nail file.

[B]

You were like, nail filing the lugs and the shoes didn't work. That's not gonna work. It's gonna take a long time.

[A]

So I took this knife and just chopped off some of the unnecessary lugs. Not the whole thing, just part of them. But in the process, it wasn't very precise.

[B]

And, dude, you were cutting towards your body. That is like steak knife 101.

[A]

Not the whole time, just a little bit.

[B]

When you walked into the kitchen, you are literally just sawing directly towards your shoes.

[A]

Well, Megan, while sawing off some of the shoe weight, maybe I can saw off some of my finger weight. Okay. So in this process, though, I documented it all because I thought I had achieved nirvana. And sure enough, I got this shoe from 10.2 ounces to 9.6 ounces and still had plenty of lugs. And then I took it out onto Green Mountain in Boulder and had a transcendently good run.

[B]

You were giddy heading into it. I think you were thinking about all of the video content that I took, and you're like, my Instagram is going to be popping. It's going to be great.

[A]

Even More than that, I'm like, I am changing the game for everyone out there. It's like, if you drop that much weight From it's like 6% of the shoes weight, you're going to be improving running economy across the board. I'm going to be changing the game. If Adidas can't do it for us, if these other companies can't, I'm going to be the one that changes everything.

[B]

Were you considering just, like, hacking off the shoelaces, just taking, like, some of them off?

[A]

Oh, well, I also did that. I real.

[B]

Did you really?

[A]

I realized the shoe, because it weirdly has laces that go all the way down to the toes, so it makes your toes go numb. Uh, so I relaced them higher, and I was like, well, now I can do a smaller shoelace. We're gonna get the shoe real light. Um, so on the final descent of Green Mountain, I caught a route with my left foot and did like a Superman fall. Which wasn't the shoe's fault. That was a user error on my part. Um, and that happens on this trail periodically when you go this fast.

[B]

In fact, I think you've caught the same route before. I was going back and looking at your Strava looking from when you were going real fast, just down to, like, zero miles an hour. And I was like, I think I know the section of trail from other Strava files.

[A]

Like, always, though, it's the part that's not that technical. It's just the one route that catches you. So me and this route well acquainted at this point. So I fell, got back up. It wasn't a big deal. Then I looked down at my feet and, oh, no. This indestructible shoe. The sole had just ripped down in half. So I think my cutting might have messed with the structural integrity of the sole.

[B]

Well, it makes sense because you were cutting the lugs, but you're cutting them so deep that I feel like you're cutting into the shoe itself.

[A]

Well, I', mean, I was hoping that I could just really get this weight down, because that's the best thing for the Instagram reel. And so I got the weight down. But at what cost are you going

[B]

to get a sander? I'm kind of committed to it now. I'm like, you invested. You went hard on this. And, like, seeing your getting this, I'm like, I feel like we should just invest in a sander and see what happens.

[A]

Yeah, get a belt sander. Oh, my God. Can you imagine what I'll do to My hands with a belt sander. There are videos online of cobblers who take shoes and repurpose them. In fact, I've read about. I think HOKA has a cobbler that works with their pro athletes to change their shoes.

[B]

Wait, what?

[A]

I. I'm not 100% sure. I think Outside wrote an article on this. Someone shared it with me. I didn't read it.

[B]

I feel like it's also time to upgrade the name from a cobbler to something else. Yeah, cobbler sounds like a Keebler Elf.

[A]

So, yeah, still disappointed in the shoe. Also disappointed in myself. But I've just decided I'm going to commit to the HOKA Rocket X Trail. I'm just going to run on it. It's very light, it accomplishes most of my purposes, and yes, it causes my big toes to get ripped to all hell, but that's a small price to pay for how bad most trail shoes are.

[B]

We did a long run together this weekend. Actually our first long run in a minute. I felt like every mile you were making a comment about the shoes, how good they were. Yeah, I was surprised.

[A]

I was like, megan, I've decided I'm just positive now. No more of that shoe snob bullshit that I used to be. I realized that the whole time the problem was me, not the shoes.

[B]

Actually, we did a hike with Leo this weekend, and he decided that he wanted to run most of the downhills back to the car. And I was like, what is happening? This is so cool. But he's running in, like, the equivalent of van skateboarding shoes. They're like Velcroed together. They're barely held together.

[A]

We've had these shoes for over a year that he's been wearing.

[B]

He's, like, really broken them in. And I'm like, david, you would retire from trail running altogether if you had to wear the pair of shoes that Leo was sending it in.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In fact, I'm kind of disappointed in him. We should get a paternity test because that ain't my boy.

[B]

He's not. He's got a shoe priss.

[A]

Okay, let's get on to the episode. This is such a good one. A quick roadmap. We're going to talk about improving bone density. The best news ever from Megan. Cannot wait for this one. Then the Boston Marathon. Tate Pagacha's fueling.

[B]

This is wild.

[A]

A study on heat training and altitude that upends the conventional wisdom. And I love that. As a broader scientific discussion. A study on single versus double workouts. Caffeine response based on genotype, super shoes and injury risk, plus a Q and A on sleep, video games, leveling up

[B]

and more video games. I like that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's not really a question. It was just someone that gave us tips on how I can finally play video games. And I'm excited for it.

[B]

It was done. Spoiler alert. Via the bike. And this morning I had a moment where I was doing the Zwift pace groups and I gave you shit for this last week.

[A]

Yeah, last week we talked about this and you just shat on me. You roasted me on the podcast as I talked about riding, looking up Constance's looking like whole situation.

[B]

It seems like you just panicked there.

[A]

What I did, I did well. Last week we really committed to saying the word taint like 47 times, actually.

[B]

You, not me.

[A]

You definitely participated.

[B]

I would love a taint count from last week's podcast. I'm sure someone could do it. I'm sure it was at least like 70, 30 taint count.

[A]

This is rigged. So we said it so much last week. I didn't. I didn't want to jump back into the taint discussion without context, but you did it this morning for the first time in a long time.

[B]

And I was hyped. I was like, I can't believe it's taken me this long to commit to the pace group. And I loved it. And I was like, this is my own version of a video game. I had just a short, like 30 minute ride this morning and I was really sad when it was over.

[A]

And you rode with Jacques.

[B]

I rode with Jacques. I know. How perfect is that? You have constant, I have Jacques.

[A]

Megan, you can't get everything you need from your relationship. Sometimes you go outside it and you spice it up.

[B]

It's true. I also dropped Jacques a few times. I might need to level up to the next pay script, but you know what? That's a good thing for my relationship.

[A]

That's what you want in your relationships?

[B]

I want to leave my man in the dust.

[A]

You want to be the top.

[B]

Yeah, it's true. It's so true.

[A]

I left a pause there.

[B]

We can so leave that in.

[A]

Okay. The most exciting news of all is you got your DEXA scan results back. I think you got the DEXA itself on Friday. This is a bone density scan. And why don't you tell the listeners what we learned and what they can learn.

[B]

It looks so much better. So I feel like I've just been this sad girl about my bone density because I've had, like, you know, a regular period for. Since, like, college.

[A]

A regular, not irregular.

[B]

Yeah, a regular. A normal menstrual cycle. And I feel like I've worked so hard for that. And then I've had to take a lot of prednisone for my heart, also for sacroiliitis related to, like, the autoimmune stuff that I've had. And it was so sad because it's, like, directly toxic to bones.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like every time you took one of those pills, your heart just sank.

[B]

It's just like, God damn.

[A]

And it was pregnancy mainly that you had to stay on it for an extended period of time with Leo because they were worried about that. And so that was a much more extended period than, like, the smaller courses that people might take sometimes.

[B]

I was probably on it for a year and a half total, which is a really long time to be on a medication that's, like, toxic to the bones. And so it tanked my bone density, specifically, like, in my spine. And so I've been following it and thinking about it, and, you know, there's been so many times on downhills where I'm just, like, bombing a downhill on a trail, and I'm like, oh, just pray for my sacrum thinking about this. And so I was a little nervous, actually, heading into the dexa just being like, you know, what's happened to my bones? I've been really focused on fueling, just knowing that's, like, a big impact. And then it got so much better.

[A]

Yeah. And it got better beyond what could be expected from past research. And that's one of the most exciting parts of all to broaden this out is your numbers exemplify what we see in coaching all the time and in just podcast listeners that if you do things like Megan's about to talk about, whatever number you have is not destiny. Even though they say so much of your bone density is formed when you're young. Yes, it is. But you can reverse those trends through these approaches in ways that go far beyond what you see in scientific studies. And I think it shows a limitation of the science, but also shows what is happening right now with fueling and supplementation.

[B]

And I feel like I've had. I've seen some cases of bone density that's improved beyond what we expect from, like, scientific literature. And I was holding that in my head this last year, thinking about that. And So I improved 1.1 standard DB deviations in my spine in a year, which is a lot. And so I was pumped, and I ran a downhill this weekend. And I was like, oh, yay, my bone density is normal again.

[A]

You were running so good on the downhills. I mean, I can see how that would play a huge role over time. And so what's your advice to people that are in this dilemma? And I think that goes for most listeners, even if you don't have, like, chronically low bone density. Improving bone density is something that matters to everyone because it doesn't only determine health now as an athlete, it determines health when you're 75 and you fall down in the shower or something like that.

[B]

I think the biggest thing for me was just thinking about fueling, and so I was like, I'm gonna do high carb fueling on any run over 60 minutes and just try to give my bones, like, as much substrate as possible to heal and recover between sessions.

[A]

You're the best fueler I've ever seen.

[B]

Did a lot of cross training, too, and I think that helped a ton along with just, like, you know, continued hormonal health. And then I did. I actually think the Advanced Bone Support by Thorne is an incredible supplement. And at first, for, like, so six months of taking it, I didn't realize you're supposed to take it twice a day.

[A]

Ah, yeah.

[B]

And then I read the label, and I was like, oh, no, I'm missing some bone gains. And so I took that morning and night. And I actually think that helped a ton.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. It's called Thorn Advanced Bone Builder. I think I've gotten.

[B]

Are you making. Are you going to improve the tank count here?

[A]

No, no. There's a truck stop on the New Jersey Turnpike where I get Advanced Bone Builder all the time.

[B]

As the top.

[A]

No, no, no. I'm the bottom on the bottom. Um, but, yeah, that's a great supplement. You also take Thorn Vitamin D. You get that at the feed. Um, and I think you do take a lot of vitamin D and calcium. You really emphasize that. Then you're loading a ton with the kids. Like, you're lifting all the time. And, yes, you don't do the tons of strength work that some of the plans might indicate. But I think if you don't have kids, you probably have to think about exactly how you're gonna do that, because you are constantly lifting Leo now, and he's gotten to be quite a heavy kettlebell.

[B]

Yeah, he requests being lifted a lot. There's been times when I've carried him back, like, a full mile from a hike. And I think, for me, I was a little bit surprised about this context because I Just don't feel great with heavy strength training in my life. And I don't know if that's because I have, like, a predisposition to having inflammation, but I've really dialed back the strength training. And so I think that's why I was a touch nervous, definitely, about this. Ducks up. Cause I was like, how are my bones gonna build without, you know, the standard dose of plyometrics or heavily weighted squats and deadlifts? And I think those are amazing for building bone density. They just don't work for me personally. And to see the bone gains without those. I don't think I did a single plyometric this year. Yeah, um, made me just, like, really happy.

[A]

Bone gains. Title of the podcast right there.

[B]

We boned up.

[A]

But for everybody out there, like, the fueling that you do, like seeing Megan behind the scenes. So, yes, the feeling of training is amazing. But then the feeling outside of training, every day after training, you're taking science and sport beta recovery. So that's a huge calorie dose that you're just trying to stay on top of that. Um, you do as many burgers as you say. In fact, the other night, the other day coming down, I was like, you know, Megan, I want some vegetables. And you're like, I want smash burger.

[B]

Okay. Smash burger is so good.

[A]

Respect. I'm not.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

I was happy with our decision. But, like, you know, you've lived that fully for so long, and then you're loading your body in different ways. You know, kids, you do do weight vests sometimes around the house.

[B]

You give me shit for that weight vest. I think the weight vest actually had a significant component, and every time I wear it, I feel like there's a little part of you that's like, laughing at me.

[A]

I mean, I'm not laughing at you. I'm not laughing at the physiology of it. I'm laughing at that. You look like a clown. No, you look amazing.

[B]

Actually, there's been a lot of times that I'm like, wearing the weight vest and carrying ollie at the same time, and I'm like, this is 45 pounds of weight.

[A]

No, it's so. It's so incredible. And then, you know, the running approach where you're not overdoing it. You're not like, going out on 30 mile runs for no reason. You're focusing on power. Your training is so emphasized on power. And so that's why, like, if you look at the SWAT training plans, we even have a power builder training plan designed for this. But that's everything we're focused on is power, power, power. Running is a power sport. And Megan, you have built your body to be able to handle that in such a beautiful way. So obviously you could still have a bone injury at any moment and anyone could. And it's not your fault ever. If that does happen. If to anyone out there listening, um, but playing this game like you can give your body the best shot possible.

[B]

And it was so exciting to me. Like, now when I do strides, I'm like, these are my plyometrics. Like, plyometrics are great, but you can also get that stimulus in other ways if it's a little bit too much for you.

[A]

Or bike sprints. You know, we talked about a study that found, um, high torque bike sprints are better or as good as squats for strength development. And it doesn't mean that that's bone loading. It's obviously different. But if you're focusing on power all the time, the body can develop power in a way that kind of blows the blows, the blows blows out of the water. What is expected from the scientific studies.

[B]

And I think too, if you've been in this position of having low bone density, it is not your destiny. Yeah. And I feel like for me there's been one athlete in particular and she listens to the, this podcast high. I think she probably knows who she is, who has had just remarkable bone density gains to the point that, like, when I see her dexas, I have cried before, which is like kind of wild to look at a PDF on your computer and just like have tears coming down your cheeks. But like, you know, her journey was so meaningful to me. And like, we see these numbers and so if you have lower bone density, especially like in a spine, we see that a lot in runners. Like, it is not your destiny and hold hope and hold belief and then get those carbs on board.

[A]

Absolutely. And then the supplementation too. And finally, there are in really extreme cases, medications that go specifically to bones that come with other risks and side effects.

[B]

Actually, that was the cool thing is a lot of times the big positive gains that I see are done with forteo, which is a bone building medication, or estradiol, which patch, which can help hormones. And I didn't have any of those on board. And it's really nice to see bone density gains, like, without that context.

[A]

Absolutely. Just so proud of you. And then last thing on our life is we're going to the Boston Marathon this week.

[B]

High five.

[A]

High five.

[B]

It's going to be a date weekend.

[A]

No Kids, um, we're so excited. We'll report back next week about everything we learn. Uh, I'm monitoring the weather obsessively. You can imagine my dad meteorologist ability.

[B]

Oh, I love it. I wanted to be a meteorologist as a kid. I feel like we'd have had some good conversations.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, I'm so hyped right now. It looks like a tailwind. Who knows? But we get a tailwind, it's going to be extra spicy. So everybody out there root for Jess McLean and Amanda Vestry. They're just two incredible humans. They're so ready. But at the same time, you know, we're just excited to celebrate with them, whether it's the best day or the worst day. And also just experience Boston. I've never been.

[B]

I mean, how is that possible? You went to college in New York. That is not that far from Boston.

[A]

Yeah, well, I didn't particularly appreciate New York either.

[B]

Yeah, you're like, I'm only going to travel south. We're not going to go anywhere more north. How are we going to get around the course? Have we thought about that yet?

[A]

Nope. I'm actually talking to Ambie Burfoot, who's one of the top journalists in running history about how exactly he recommends it. Since he's been to every Boston and he knows everything about the course. I'm hoping that we might even find some in with, like traveling with people that have some special arrangement.

[B]

I feel like we should rent E bikes. How fun would that be?

[A]

Megan, you want to put me on an E bike? The guy who cuts towards himself with a knife in an unfamiliar city. What do you think is going to happen?

[B]

I mean, maybe we'll make some insurance money.

[A]

That's true. It's true. Actually.

[B]

Like, this is my long term investing plan. I just get David on a series of bikes

[A]

that might be the best roadster spot this year. Megan's retirement plan is to go to new cities and then need bikes. Let's go on to the rest of the episode before we do that quick promo for the feed. Go to the feed.com swap swp. If you're a first time customer, you get 40% off just by putting in your email there it is such a good deal. But then $10 back for every hundred dollars spent. And some things even have better deals. So the specific thing I wanted to talk about this week is tailwind dewalter melon.

[B]

Why is that flavor so good?

[A]

You turned me on to this.

[B]

Yes. I had it at an aid station in Run Rabbit run. And I was like, this is going to be the only drink source I use in my future running.

[A]

You literally came into an aid station and said, I just want the tailwind. Because I had filled up your bottle

[B]

with other stuff and I was like, dump it out. Yeah. You just want tailwind.

[A]

I did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasted five seconds. And for you in a race, five seconds. Oh, my God.

[B]

Five seconds is big. And I was like, I just want that taste.

[A]

Yeah. So get the dewalter melon. It's just very gentle tasting it. So perfect for everyday runs. And I feel like it's one of those drinks that you can just mix a little bit higher concentration, like 1.25 for hot days. That will be really effective. So I think I'll be going toward dewalter melon at Leadville this year. And then next up is Enervit Citrus. You put that in, right?

[B]

I put that in. These are tasty gels. They're the liquid gel, but they have. What I love is that they have 25 milligrams of caffeine, which for me is like a perfect little touch of caffeine. I feel like sometimes the 100 milligram gels, it's like we want to go to Mars and I simply just want to orbit around the moon and come back. And I feel like 25 milligrams is good for that.

[A]

25 milligrams.

[B]

I know. A hundred milligrams, if I do that consistently in a race just sends me too far.

[A]

Oh, Megan, I know. I'm disappointed in you. Maybe that'll apply to some listener out there.

[B]

I'm sure it will. I get messages about that all the time. It's like, what are lower dose caffeine sources?

[A]

Oh, my God. A lot of people out here drinking non alcoholic beer and having 25 milligram gels.

[B]

I did have an athletic brewing this weekend. Oh, my God. It's so good.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And I feel a little buzz from it too.

[A]

You know what this is like? It's like the Olestra chips.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, this is so different. That is so different. Stuff that make you shit forever.

[A]

Okay. The thing that you have to listen to is V Nella. We've talked about the studies on vanilla, but I'm hearing from pros that I coach. I've been trying to get a fair number of them on this supplement. So it's a probiotic that is made specifically to help you metabolize lactate in the gut. And seeing wild results as the season kicks off, obviously, a million confounders. Like, if you're following my Instagram and you see the athlete results that we're posting of, like, all these crazy wins,

[B]

it was a wild weekend.

[A]

Yeah. Not everyone is on V now, but some of those are and I don't want to give it away. So just check out Vnella. It's by FitBionics. Um, really can't go wrong. And then finally, I just wanted to read a message from a listener because this is beautiful and it kind of shows the journey that you can be on. If you hear these ads and you're just like, maybe this isn't for me. Here it is. I just wanted to share that sometime back, David gave some guidance for runners who have struggled with disordered eating in the past to tolerate and run fueling. So this is for athletes that have a history. I wrote a big article on Patreon, all about how to deal with gel rejection. So not just Ed athletes, but everybody. So, like, if you have a history of rejecting gels and races and you're just unsure why it came down to taking a gel every 30 minutes, even on shorter runs. A trial of gels of sorts.

[B]

I love that we should use that terminology more often.

[A]

I never heard.

[B]

Never said that that's a great idea

[A]

for fueling a reference to trial of miles. But that's beautiful. The first week I thought this guidance was nuts. Well, this runner who has never been able to fuel is now knocking down carbs like Snowbody's business. And I feel incredible. The journey continues.

[B]

The trial of gels.

[A]

The trial of gels.

[B]

Well, thank you. You just gave us some incredible branding. But that's also a beautiful story too. And I feel like we see that a lot of athletes where just like, it takes practice and it takes commitment and then seeing also the downstream effects of what happens to hormones and performance

[A]

and even bone density or whatever. You're measuring basically anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, obviously, I think your bone density situation happened largely because of Prednisone. But, um. And by focusing on the fueling, you were able to just go skyrocketing and think about what other things we're not measuring that also is applying to. And so not saying everybody should do a gel every 30 minutes all the time. This is a situation I detail a lot more in that article, but go check that out. And so the feed.com swapswap. Get everything you need. It's so awesome. Now what we're going to talk about is kind of related to the Enervit Discussion you just had on those really weak sauce gels. They also make hundred milligram gels that are fantastic.

[B]

Also, the taste of the gels is so good. Why have they nailed the taste? Like so much better companies?

[A]

Why is Enervit so much better?

[B]

Maybe it's the Tae impact. Tae just has swag, and maybe he's like, designing the taste.

[A]

I haven't thought about that. Every enervit gel is way better. Even though they use different tastes in all of them. It's not like the underlying gel substance is fundamentally better. It's just their flavoring is better.

[B]

What's your favorite flavor?

[A]

Oh, my God, absolutely. The mango enervit, which is the Ta Da gel. Yeah, but of course it's mango. Yeah, but even the ones that aren't Ta Da gels are incredible.

[B]

I had actually a black cherry one this weekend that was literally like Dr. Pepper in a gel. It was delicious. And we did actually, at one point, a huzzah schol. And we asked people to design their dream gels. And we got a lot of people say Dr. Pepper, which I agree with. And I was like, here's Dr. Pepper in a gel.

[A]

Yeah, well, he has an MD, so. And so the reason this is relevant is Enervit posted Tade Pagaccia's fueling. And I always take these with a grain of salt because Tade Bagaccia, the best cyclist of all time, how much is he being totally open and honest about anything he does? We don't know the answer to that question. In cycling especially. There's a lot of misinformation out there. Why would he be saying exactly what he does for everybody else to copy? That's not his style, as far as I know. That's not many cyclist style, really. That's swap style. But you don't see that very other places in elite athletes that often.

[B]

Well, I feel like if swap is no secrets, Tade is like all the secrets in the world.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I just think it's that sport in general. You know, you have trade secrets. But so taking it with a grain of salt, Enervit posted his fueling overall, not just during the race, but around the race. And some interesting wrinkles there that I wanted to talk about.

[B]

Okay. I tend to believe this, though, because cycling teams have these nutritionists on staff and literally, like, everything is weighed, everything is measured, which, like, to me would just be not so much fun as an exaster.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It feels like you're just like, you know, eating as a Business proposition, whereas I like to eat as business and fun. But I actually do trust these numbers because of how tightly controlled it is within cycling. Whereas sometimes I see like, other, like, here's what I eat in a day numbers from athletes with histories of, like, disordered eating or eating disorders. And I'm like, nah, I don't believe that. But I actually believe this.

[A]

See, like the mullet of fueling. Business on the top, party on the back.

[B]

It's actually a great description of feeling.

[A]

I know. Am I a genius? Yeah, I think I am. Okay, so first off is his breakfast. Theoretically, he takes 250 grams of carbs, 40 grams of protein, and 30 grams of fat.

[B]

That's bonkers.

[A]

So that's one quite a large meal.

[B]

Yeah. And theoretically that's three hours pre race.

[A]

Three hours pre race. Um, respect. And I. I think if that's true and. And based on what I see in cyclists, fueling, that is true. Like, mostly in that, like Jonas Abrahamson, when he posts his breakfast, they're. They're quite large. And you don't see this in running so much. And maybe that's because of GI jostling. But I think increasing breakfast size is a huge opportunity across the board for high performance. And I wonder if there's some room there. Like, this is a place I suck. Is getting in enough at breakfast. Especially these types of things before ultras.

[B]

Actually, I was having the reflection today that I think in relative to the rest of my day, breakfast is an area where I suck too. And I wonder if that's a common runner trait. It just.

[A]

Just. I'm not excited for food in the morning.

[B]

I wake up and I'm just like, what am I supposed to eat?

[A]

Honestly, what I just need is something you can put in the microwave, you know, Like, I don't. I want to get right to work. Like, maybe that's part of our problems. We're just going to it and I don't know. I'm also just kind of superstitious about my GI issues, though. Maybe I shouldn't be. Maybe breakfast would make it better.

[B]

That's true. Actually. Is getting something on board.

[A]

I remember at the World Championships, Zach

[B]

Miller, oh, my goodness.

[A]

At breakfast, you know, Zach Miller, one of the greatest ultra runners of all time, doing instant oatmeal packets that I think he had brought from America, and it was just packet, packet, packet. And he was so far ahead of the game because no one else was doing that.

[B]

And then he was just drizzling goo on top of it. I was thinking about it, that was like a chocolate goo thing. And I was like, holy shit. Meanwhile, we're over here eating like a single croissant before racing.

[A]

And for me, not even that sometimes, you know, so I need to step up my game. And then before the race, another 60 grams of carbs with 5 grams of protein and 3 grams of fat. I think it also is relevant that their races start later. Often they're starting midday so that the races end as a lot of people are watching tv. So you can see how that might be different. Then during the race, 130 grams of carbs per hour with just a little bit of protein and fat. So almost nothing. Um, and then post race, 120 grams of protein. So big protein. And then obviously tons of calories overall. So, yeah, I mean, the fueling isn't just within the race. So 130 grams is around what you're seeing across cycling. It's just all the time when you're training that hard and working that hard, you kind of just need to keep the fire burning.

[B]

And if you add up all the numbers across breakfast, dinner, and then his, like, in race feeling, it comes out to around 7,400 calories, which is a lot of caloric density in the day.

[A]

Was that on the Instagram posts?

[B]

Yeah. You can actually, if you.

[A]

Or did you. Or did you, like, do the math in your.

[B]

I did the math, so.

[A]

Oh, you did the math.

[B]

They broke it down. Total.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. So it's like 1500 grams of carbs, 169 grams of protein and 82 grams of lipids, um, which is around 7400 calories. And so that's, you know, you think about that. He's doing a five and a half hour race and warming up and cooling down. But there's a lot of runners out there that are going for, you know, long runs, really long runs. And think about that fueling density or even just like long rides, how much you have to fuel.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's a lot different with running just because.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Also, Todd is putting out crazy power

[A]

and he's getting right back to training, maybe even the next day or a day, two days later. So a little bit different maybe on overall, but the demand element is just so interesting. And then the 130 grams an hour during. Once again, another vote for it. Um, in the context of this, I tried to look up what the best female cyclists were doing. And so I put in every female cyclist name, carbs per hour. And it's wild how little information there is out There for the women. But Demi Voling, who is probably the best female cyclist, I think there's an argument for her, does a hundred plus grams per hour. So even for the women, you're seeing triple digits in carb intake. And so yeah, again, cycling, it has just been overtaken fully by high carb during these activities. But in running, while high carb, like we are pushing it and it is still, you know, it is gaining traction, you'd be shocked if you just listened to the SWAT podcast how much pushback we get from people being like, well, you don't oxidize all that. And not even low carb people. People being like, well, we took this person into the lab and they actually only need this much and it's like 80 grams per hour. And yes, that would be fine if you're at 40, it'll make you way better. But the idea being that I really wanted to mention is if you do a test like that, you are getting a snapshot in time. And just like if you looked at your fitness in a snapshot in time and then assume that was your fitness forever, that hopefully wouldn't be the right answer. You would improve or change as you go. Similarly, as we look at carboxidation and what you need once you train it, once you get better at high output and get better at actually adapting to absorbing that much, not just gut wise, but then get the muscles that can use it, you'll also be pushing it higher. So basically push the number higher during hard training in hard racing and you're gonna be rewarded.

[B]

And I think too when you think about the context of this, there was actually a number of people commenting on this post diabetes in reference to tata. I think there's just pushback within cycling too, and we're just not aware of it.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, so I guess we're almost like someone that only listens to the SWAT pod, but for cycling.

[B]

Oh yeah. But like there's tons of pushback within cycling. And to think about commenting that about Tate Pagacha is nuts. Like clearly what he's doing is working and. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And also he's burning everything he puts in. So, uh, just another vote for it. And this is also happening across the female end of the cycling and that might be the place where there's the biggest opportunity in ultra running.

[B]

Yeah, there's still a lot of really high quality female athletes in ultra running that I feel like are lower carb fueling and it makes low carb, but

[A]

it's lower carb you're often seeing under 60 grams per hour. And I'm like, okay, this sport still has so far to go and that's these women are insanely good. But imagine what will happen when just the metabolic equation changes in that side. And there's obviously this situation in men too. But you see more case studies that are posted of the female athletes being quite low. And so I think it's just like a huge opportunity for the future. And it's obvious that the sport still has a long way to go even though those times are already so fast. So, you know, I'm personally incredibly excited to see how that metabolic curve shifts in running as you get more competitive pressure.

[B]

Why do you think there is that offset in female racing? I think some of it may be mentality. I feel like when you look at the actual, like there's been some studies looking at like size differences and gender differences in carboxidation and it matters slightly but not at the numbers, like not enough to drop it to the numbers that we're seeing. And I wonder if some of that is just mental approach that it's harder for female athletes to do this. Maybe it's like feel, I don't know,

[A]

that might be GI issues, origin point. And it might provide enough data that gives people confidence to go lower carb in the sense that maybe some of the people that are going lower carb are having some like psychological issues long term with it. And then when their story gets told, people are like, oh well, you can do this and be successful. Thus it might not take much to lead people to doing it for what they think are science reasons, but are actually inherited psychological ones. You know, it's like a contagion almost. But more than that, I think it's because women sometimes can be such freakish fat oxidizers. They can be so high up on that curve that for ultras they're just not able to run fast enough to need that many carbs.

[B]

That's true. Yeah.

[A]

And this goes only for the freaks. Like the truly best of all time for women when you, when they are, have gotten into labs, have shown numbers that are pretty bonkers. Thus, you know, would it matter that much to the freaks if they go higher? Maybe it would at the margins, but they probably wouldn't respond to 100 or 120 solely because their mechanical system can't write, can't cash the checks that their, you know, metabolic system might be able to write in that circumstance. Like they basically have to be sprinting the whole time because they're so economical. What do you Think.

[B]

I think that makes sense. I'm curious to see where this goes and how it evolves. And I actually love. I feel like the case reports that precision does enervate. Does. I feel like precision started it. And now I've seen a bunch of nutrition companies follow of, like, here's what this athlete does during the race. Here's the sodium, here's the fluid intake. I actually find those fascinating.

[A]

You know what we need?

[B]

What?

[A]

Parodies. Yeah, I feel like this is my next Instagram thing.

[B]

Oh, this would be a great Instagram fueling parodies. It's like 275 grams of carbs an hour. It also makes me wonder, too. It's like, you know, when you're out there and there's been studies about how accurate is that, actually? And it varies a ton.

[A]

Oh, it varies a ton. Just like the what I eat in a day videos vary a time.

[B]

Oh, it's like, you know, are you getting every bit of that gel? Like, you know, are you. What is the rough math on that? How much are you drinking?

[A]

How much are you being honest fully? You know, like, the what I eat in the day videos, I would estimate 75% of them are total bullshit.

[B]

Agreed. Yeah.

[A]

You know, and you talk to athletes and they'll often say, oh, yeah, that was total bullshit. And I want to redo that because now I have a different approach to being totally open about things, and I'm less worried about what people are going to say that, like, they're going to comment diabetes on this.

[B]

In fact, I actually think sometimes it's unhelpful for, like, athletes that are struggling with eating because it's, like, so easy to do a direct comparison to those videos, like, up or down, that, like, sometimes they're not the most helpful discussions. But I feel like when it's, like, today and we're talking about 130 grams of carbs per hour, I feel better

[A]

doing it after I have another good race.

[B]

Which are you gonna do?

[A]

I should. We should do one solely because, you know, if I did one, like, of a. Like, of one of my days, it would hopefully help people just feel, like, a little bit more open and free.

[B]

And I feel like we could do it in a way of explaining the science and the nuance. But I feel like it also, like, for us, it's a lot of stuff, like, centered around fun of, like, going to CP Burger in Boulder, which is one of our favorite things.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Oh. Then Cody could come on a date with us.

[A]

Cody could come on a date with us.

[B]

Come film our dinner.

[A]

Wait, could Constance and Jacques come?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It's gonna be a whole party.

[A]

Oh. Okay, let's get on to the heat and altitude study. This one is very exciting for me personally.

[B]

You talked about this study a lot.

[A]

Oh, my God, Megan, when I saw this, you wouldn't shut up.

[B]

It was great.

[A]

It was a constant and jock moment. So here's the title. Heat training augments hemoglobin mass during a moderate altitude training camp in well trained endurance athletes. Athletes. And so the context for this is, you know, we've talked in the past many times about how heat training, including passive heat training, now improves your hemoglobin mass, so increases the amount of red blood cells in your bloodstream due to the plasma volume increase that comes from the heat, subsequently a compensatory mechanism to raise the red blood cell count. So that's very cool. And then on the flip side, altitude helps improve hemoglobin mass. That's through the oxygen effects. We've talked about that too. But there has long been this conventional wisdom that heat and altitude are not additive effects. So if you do heat and altitude, it might be bad. And there are so much people online, so much conversation about this that says, don't combine the two because it doesn't work. And it all cites back to a study or two that comes from ancient history. And so I was always like, huh, that seems weird. But I guess I have to say what the science says rather than what I think. And now I have a study that says that science was probably bullshit.

[B]

Well, I wonder now how often we have to go back and look at some of those ancient times and just be like, we are in a totally different history now. When you think about the context of athlete health, of we have carbs now to support adaptation and hormones. And so maybe athletes now are responding to heat and to altitude in ways they never have before because the overall health is better.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, there are the studies that find that reduced energy consumption reduces hemoglobin overall.

[B]

Oh, substantially. Yeah.

[A]

And so like, if you can't get your iron stores high and it could be under fueling. We've talked about those studies in the past. Thus, if you're trying, if you're have a limitation, it might not just be iron, it might be like energy levels overall that cause an athlete not to increase the hemoglobin might have led to those study conclusions. So in other words, you're saying those old studies could have been just seeing energy deficiency.

[B]

Yeah. And now we're at a different time of athletes can adapt so much more readily. And I feel like there's a lot of science that was done in the past looking at different interventions and you know, those athletes might not have been fueled the way our athletes are, especially with like, you know, they certainly weren't doing 120 grams of carbs per hour just because no one was back in those days. And so now I feel like athletes are ready to respond to a bunch of different stimuli.

[A]

I love that point. Yeah, I mean, I think that that could be it. I also just think you gotta be careful about taking conclusions from studies unless they confirm your biases. Like this one confirms mine.

[B]

Unless you wanna talk about it all weekend long.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, but to be serious, like, I think there is a world of coaching and I find that this exists more in charting than other places. But it exists everywhere where there's like, oh, well, show me a study for that. And obviously we talk about studies on here all the time. We love it. But the study is never the thing that should drive the theory because the study will only find little itty bitty inklings about why things happen. And there are too many variables that go into this and too small of effect sizes to really find. Like there's so many similar studies that find, well, VO2 max changes of 2%. That's just what happens when you measure the same person at different moments. And thus if we're seeing small itty bitty changes like that, how can you even tease out what causes what when it's one of many interventions that happen in a life? So long story short, I love this study, but take this with a grain of salt too.

[B]

I like the study design too. So what they did was they had them go to moderate altitude, which was 1865 meters, which is 6,000, around 6,000ft. So not crazy high altitude, but high enough to elicit some of the hemoglobin and EPO based responses. And they took 46 cross country skiers or biathletes and they had a nice mix. It was 20 men and 26 women.

[A]

Yeah, that was awesome.

[B]

Wasn't that nice?

[A]

I also like, did you see the male, female like symbol? They just had the symbol for men or women. It reminded me so much of when you're at a bar or a restaurant and they don't say men or women or you know, non gender on the bathroom. They just have some figure up there and then you have to like look for a figure penis and you're like, I don't Know, I shouldn't be having to look at a figure like this.

[B]

I've definitely made the wrong call before. Same like, oops, same.

[A]

It's like, I shouldn't need to inspect the tape. This should be consensual on everybody's part. Okay. And so they took these groups and they did split them into three different groups for a three week intervention. So first group was altitude plus three weekly heat suit sessions. Um, second group was just altitude and the third group was a sea level control. And so the big finding here was that the altitude and heat group had a 2.9% increase in hemoglobin mass. The altitude group had 1.2% and the control group had a loss of.02%.

[B]

And in terms of what they were doing for the heat intervention, it wasn't like huge in terms of number of days per week, so just three days per week. But it was active heat. So they were doing 50 minute sessions in a heat suit, um, and then having them freely hydrate throughout, which is kind of consistent with how we do active heat days.

[A]

Yeah. But now we have the studies that say passive heat mimics active heat when it's done over a long enough period of time. So I'm personally using this as a synonym for heat generally, but that might be taking a scientific step that's not warranted.

[B]

Oh, I think it's great also because passive heat is so much more fun. Yeah.

[A]

And I do worry that active heat at altitude just might be a lot of stress for somebody just overall from a training perspective, that it might start to impact the rest of your training. And maybe that relates to the final non finding here is that there was no between group differences in performance measures. So even though that group that gained hemoglobin mass should have better oxygen carrying capacity, get faster, increase VO2 max just from that number, they didn't have better performance measures. So yeah, it's probably a little bit more complicated when you have this interact then with training stimulus. And the best part about the passive heat study, that was one of our best studies of last year, is that it found that those athletes trained just as well because it wasn't a particularly large increase in stress to sit in the sauna or hot tub. Like if you're out there and you're like, when should I do passive heat? It's like whenever you freaking want. Just maybe not right before training. It's just relaxing for the most part. You don't need to kill yourself.

[B]

And I think maybe they just didn't do this long enough to See this performance gain. So it was done over three weeks. And I wonder, like, there's been some altitude studies looking at like three weeks versus four weeks. And four weeks is often around where you start to see some of those more performance gains. And so maybe they just needed to do the study a little bit longer.

[A]

Yeah, that, that could be it. So overall I just like this one because finds again, heat, you throw it on in almost any circumstance and it does this change, it increases hemoglobin mass. And hemoglobin mass is what drives endurance performance. And especially as you increase duration. So as you go longer and longer and blood volume drops in these events, even as you stay hydrated, having a hemoglobin mass buffer will probably improve fatigue resistance. So this is one of those very easy interventions that is probably ubiquitous among the top end cycling, but might not be gathered by everyone. And it can be so simple. It can be one passive heat session a week, like sauna, hot tub, two, three, whatever you can make time for in the context of a busy life.

[B]

And I think one relevant finding here too is to pay attention to ferritin levels. And so actually to all of the athletes going to altitude only, which I was like, this seems like a bit of a, you know, a confounding variable here is they gave a hundred milligrams of ferrous sulfate, so iron supplementation a day. A day, which is pretty high iron supplementation.

[A]

And they didn't give that to the control.

[B]

They did not give that to the control group, I believe. And so just to support the athletes going to altitude. And I was like, maybe we're just seeing some impacts of iron. We are. That's a lot of iron.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, that being said, we still seeing a difference between the altitude only group and the heat and altitude.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

And I personally tell athletes to do heat when they go to altitude. Like I get questions from people that are doing Leadville all the time, you can probably imagine. And they will say, well, I get there seven days before, five days before, 10 days before. What do I do? And I say two things. I say go to the highest altitude you can and do 30 second hill strides. That will improve your cardiac output, which drops when you get to altitude and get into heat. You know, do sauna, hot tub, book an Airbnb that has these types of options because that will buffer blood volume loss and it might even enhance your response. Probably. I should also say make sure your iron stores are really good. And so, yeah, I think that this confirms what we'd Suspect from the underlying physiology. But it wraps up another loose end that existed in the literature. And that's always exciting when you start to see agreement amongst all these different study principles. And I think heat now the book is mostly closed on whether it's effective. I think all that is left to do is like, passive versus active. And how much is active even necessary? We don't know the answer to that.

[B]

And you can do heat snacks too. So I've been, like, trying to be a little bit more careful with heat coming back from my heart. And so I've just been hopping in the bathtub post workout, and I love it so much.

[A]

Oh, you love yourself a bathtub?

[B]

I really do. And we give, like, heat in our household. Like, amongst the two of us, we kind of have a pact. Is considered training time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I'm like, I'm gonna go hop in the bathtub. That's my training time. And I sit there and I get real hot and it's great. Like, I'm gonna go train in the bathtub. It's really nice.

[A]

Last week we had a little bit of, like, alone time. And you, you came downstairs, you went into the fridge, you grabbed a massive piece of pizza, put in the microwave, and you took the plate up with

[B]

a thing of ranch dressing.

[A]

With a thing of ranch dressing.

[B]

Important.

[A]

And then you went to the bathtub.

[B]

I sat in the bathtub and ate it. And then we had alone time. It was great. It was the best thing in the world.

[A]

But my favorite part was priorities. What is the order of operations for Megan?

[B]

I gotta be fueled and warm and I respect it. I respect it. I'm very happy. I respect it. Actually. It was great. I reckon, you know, that's a great warm up.

[A]

Honestly, Megan, pizza with ranch dressing and

[B]

a bath in a warm bath.

[A]

That is all the foreplay you ever needed. We can delete that if you want.

[B]

Yeah. I was so happy.

[A]

We're so happy.

[B]

You know, but sometime when we're 80 and, like, listening to this podcast, you'll be like, that was fucking great.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you, Mimi and grandpa. Okay. I feel like we don't need the heat questions there. They're all basic there. All right, next study on one session versus two. Actually, before we do that quick promo for Patreon. What's so cool right now is we are getting tons of messages from people who are having their goal races for early season, and they're just coming in of people doing training plans that are on Patreon. So go to patreon.com swap, swap. You can get full access to the training plans starting at $5. And for $10 we'll do heart rate zones and answer more questions. And here are some messages. Do you just want me to read some of these?

[B]

Yeah, these are some of my favorite messages. We're getting them a lot now. Athletes doing races.

[A]

This all came in this morning. Literally this morning from this weekend.

[B]

Oh, wait, don't read all of those.

[A]

Don't read all of them.

[B]

I saw like one or two in the outline this morning and now there's like 12.

[A]

Well, because they were all coming in this morning.

[B]

Like, how do I choose Megan? These are all inspiring.

[A]

Well, they're all exciting too because it's not about Patreon. It's about athletes that are seeing their potential. No need to respond to this. Just wanted to say a massive thank you. Never really done too much speed work, but I've just completed the 5k slash 10k plan. In the space of 8 weeks. I've literally dropped a minute off my zone 2 pace. Going from 9 to 9:30 to 8 8:15 to 8:45 minutes per mile.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

This has made such a difference on how much mileage I've been able to fit in and has drawn me up from 18 to 23 miles per week to 25 to 30 miles per week. Most importantly, I feel absolutely bomb proof. Thanks so much. Bomb proof 5k 10k plan. Give that a try. Uh, thank you, David. I really appreciate you taking the time to calculate these. I use them for my first 100k and found it to be a helpful guide where I set a big pr. So this was heart rate zones. So use that. Um, dear David and Megan, just wanted to say huge thank you for your training plans. I followed your advanced 12 week marathon plan and yesterday ran a sub 3:30 in my first marathon which exceeded all my expectations. A year ago I wouldn't have even dreamed of a sub 4 marathon, let alone a sub 330, blah, blah, blah. Okay, is that enough?

[B]

You're like, I want to keep going, Megan.

[A]

Well, there's so.

[B]

There's so many incredible. Oh my gosh. You put all of these on here?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love your brain that you're like, I'm going to read 12 of these.

[A]

Just want to give you a Megan, a very deserved thank you. Used a couple of your plans over the last year and was able to pr my 50k by an hour today.

[B]

Yeah, it is an hour. Race season is going hard, but also it's just exciting.

[A]

Like if these training plans are Helping people, like, run more and feel better while doing it, that's the dream, you know? And so give it a try. As always, if you can't afford it and you just want to give it, check it out, let us know and we'll get you in. And also, if you go to patreon.com swap, there is tons of free content there too, so you can get a feel whether it's for you.

[B]

Including a David solo episode this week. So I had a busy Friday. I was doing a bunch of errands and catching up on work. And so you did it solo this week. Which I get sad because I love those moments together. But how was it?

[A]

I think I did okay.

[B]

Was it spicy? Sometimes, like without me, it gets real spicy.

[A]

It wasn't humor spicy. It was intellectually spicy.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

I went down strange paths.

[B]

Like, what kind of paths?

[A]

Like, you know, evolutionary, anthropological paths. Like on a bunch of different topics.

[B]

So classic.

[A]

It was the theme of my brain.

[B]

Was it accurate?

[A]

Was it accurate? Probably not.

[B]

Did you give disclaimers?

[A]

Of course. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm a big walking disclaimer whenever I start talking

[B]

and don't have you around sometimes. We actually deleted a whole section of the pod last week.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

On dad facts. And it made me. It was something that we definitely should have deleted. But there was that 13 minute portion in there and I was like, I just love that conversation.

[A]

Yeah. So we did a question last week on AI coaching. It was 10 minute answer. I think it was really interesting. It was fun, but we were worried, you know, if someone misses the nuance of that conversation.

[B]

You got spicy.

[A]

It was your fault when I got scared.

[B]

Actually, it's never your fault.

[A]

We just want to make people feel loved and uplifted and, you know, I. I don't want to ever ra into issues not being, like, making people feel otherwise.

[B]

You were getting spicy. And I feel like I was pouring a little water on it. And then you get spicy. Then I pour more water on it. It was actually kind of a fun vibe.

[A]

But in the context of that, we had so many dad facts that got taken out.

[B]

Yeah, they were great. And I don't know, I forget the dad fact. I was like, is this real?

[A]

Yeah. And it was.

[B]

It was, it. Did you go back and look at it?

[A]

No. But the whole point of a dad

[B]

fact, you gotta believe.

[A]

You gotta believe, right?

[B]

Well, sometimes I believe so hard that I find myself in conversation. I'm like, did you know this? And I'm like, balls. That might be a dad fact. Am I right? And I panic.

[A]

Honestly, Megan, that's what you get for marrying me. That's on you. I was giving you dad facts on our very first date.

[B]

You really were 22. But the thing is, I was young and I was like, these are true.

[A]

Okay, quick study here.

[B]

Should we do this or should we go on to the caffeine study?

[A]

Okay, yeah, this is kind of.

[B]

This is DJ Megan. I don't know. We got. I mean, I just want to get to everything.

[A]

Yeah, let's skip this one.

[B]

Let's skip it.

[A]

This is on one workout versus two workouts, so it's relevant for double workouts. That might be a sexy part of the title, though.

[B]

Oh, you're like, we need those clicks.

[A]

Yeah, you mean you don't get clicks unless you have a sexy part of the title.

[B]

Okay, let's go for sexy title. Let's make. Let's do sexy title, Sexy content.

[A]

Sexy title, Sexy content. Okay, we can do this one really fast. Um, these are older study, so I just wanted to bring it to the pod. Um, it's called Comparison of Acute Physiological responses between one long and two short sessions of Moderate Intensity Training and endurance athletes. Athletes took 14 male endurance athletes with a VO2 average of 69. So good athletes. And it did a counterbalanced crossover design with two different conditions. And this is looking at the double workout method, like the types of things you might see Norwegians do. The first condition was six by 10 minutes. Kind of like some of the bigger uphill treadmill thresholds we have athletes do, all in a single session. The second condition was 2 workouts of 3 by 10 minutes separated by 6.5 hours.

[B]

And as I was going through the methodology, I was like, were these athletes fueling? Because to me, like, high carb fueling has kind of changed this answer a little bit for me in my brain, especially as it relates to like more aerob running of singles versus doubles. And they were doing 70 grams of carbs, an hour, which is great. So like, and then having standardized carb doses after exercise and then the 10 minute efforts were done uphill on the treadmill, which I think is relevant too because you're like offloading the body a little bit from biomechanical stress.

[A]

Did you catch the grade on that?

[B]

I think it was ten and a half percent.

[A]

Oh, wow. So it was actually upset. Well, am I quoting you on that?

[B]

I mean, should we.

[A]

Look, this is going to be a terrible edit to have to do if you.

[B]

I mean, I don't mind being wrong. Let's see, this is. I mean, I read this yesterday. That's totally off the top.

[A]

I don't know if you thought we were going to talk about it.

[B]

I mean, I knew it was uphill. I just can't remember the exact 10 and a half point five percent.

[A]

Wow. 10 and a half. You were so broke. Amazing. I think that's a huge sign of your instant IQ that you just took it off top of your head. And I mean, I think that actually changes this overall. Like, you know, if you're doing it 10 and a half percent, how much do you need to even do a double workout?

[B]

I mean, it's ten and a half point five.

[A]

Okay, perfect. Yeah. I think part of the rationale for double workouts is that it helps you accumulate more volume on the flats. I don't know. Um, so the findings here were that the single workout had more drift in physiological parameters. So you can imagine that if you've ever done this. So as you get to 60 minutes of effort, your heart rate goes way up. You get higher lactate readings. Here it was five beats per minute of heart rate, higher lactate by about 0.5 millimoles. Um, they also had a higher RPE, so perceived exertion. And then they had next higher levels of next day fatigue. So the two workouts led to, you know, the same accumulation of total work. Less of a physiological response initially and then theoretically they could train more on subsequent days. So for the Norwegians, they're doing two or three days like this a week and you could see why they would. Um, but for an athlete, I actually found something slightly different here. I'm like, well, if you're only doing one or two workouts total a week, week, you might actually want the bigger stimulus rather than splitting it in two. So that's the one complication I have is that I think double workouts, unless the goal is to go very, very hard. Like, if the double workout goal like here is to just accumulate more work over the course of the entire week, it might not necessarily be necessary for athletes that are somewhat stress limited. Overall, it might be better for athletes that are doing like massive volumes.

[B]

You know, we haven't talked about this study yet and that was my exact conclusion. Really same thing. And I think, like, so the drift

[A]

is actually a good physiological signal rather than a bad one.

[B]

Yeah, that's aerobic adaptations. It's like, to me, it's like.

[A]

And imagine what happens when you adapt.

[B]

Yeah. And I think this is also different too, because of the uphill nature of it. I think this does it change the nature of it. So like, if you were thinking about running 3 by 10 minutes fast at like LT2 for an athlete like you, would that change biomechanically how you think about this? Because separating out the stimuli is different. Like 10 and a half, like 10 and a half.5% incline is different from a like injury risk perspective. Does that change it for you?

[A]

Yeah, I think it would. I think 6 by 10 minutes on flat ground at that.

[B]

It's excessive. Yeah.

[A]

You know, like under five minute pace would beat me up so bad that I wouldn't be able to Adapt. I think 2 by 3 by 10 would be way better. So I don't know if on an uphill you need to split these into two, but on flat, maybe you do. And maybe a way for athletes that want to experiment with this to think about it is, is to do one workout on flat, um, so you can get some of the biomechanical benefits of going faster and then do your second workout either on the uphill treadmill or on the bike or elliptical or something like that. That's what Hans Troyer, for example, does a lot. And he is kind of the dream example of what swap training might look like when you have an athlete that can just do unlimited amounts of work and does everything right and has the brain of a total monster. And what he'll do is a morning workout that's often a little bit more speed oriented followed by a PM workout that's like 5 by 4 minutes on the uphill treadmill.

[B]

Ah, you know what? Lame. That's my exact answer too. And you know why it's lame? It's because I recently. This is like an evolution in my growth is I used to not like it when we disagreed. I was like, I don't know. I don't like when we have these like back and forths. And now I kind of love it. And the lame thing is I totally agree. And that was gonna be my answer too.

[A]

Well, Megan, this is just. You're coming around to the dad facts.

[B]

Why? Why is that happening? Okay, my second point is Hans is awesome.

[A]

Hans is awesome.

[B]

We've been training with him on Sunday and like, props to his YouTube. So he released a YouTube with you guys running on Magnolia Road. And Leo and I watched it and we're mesmerized together. Leo's not usually like into. He's more into like, you know, paw patrol and other things.

[A]

Cars.

[B]

Cars. Cars has been a big one recently.

[A]

Oh my God. Cars on the road. Yeah, they're actually really good.

[B]

He can watch things over and over and over again. And then I tried to show him Shrek and he's like, I'm scared.

[A]

Shrek is a little, little scary.

[B]

The first four minutes, he's like, uh. But he loved it. And I love Hans, too. And so vote for Hans YouTube videos because they're great.

[A]

Yeah, everybody go subscribe to Hans YouTube channel. Um, it's just really fun. Like, he is exactly who he is on that channel in such a beautiful way. And getting to see that in literally one of the best few athletes in ultra running, um, is just really cool. I don't know if we've ever had that type of access to an athlete who truly has no secrets. Like, he'll say anything. He'll answer any question. Um, what a. What a great guy.

[B]

Well, I feel like you guys have similar vibes, which is rare. Like, I haven't met a lot of humans, especially male athletes, that have similar vibes to you. And so seeing the both, like, both of you get to run together and have those vibes together, I'm just like, ah, I love this.

[A]

Not sure if you're insulting me or complimenting Han. No,

[B]

you've ruined it. That's your 10 and a half point five percent moment. It's hard to talk.

[A]

Should I delete that entirely?

[B]

No, leave it.

[A]

I meant you're complimenting me. Let's move on. Do you want to do the caffeine study?

[B]

I do. I like it.

[A]

Okay. Oh, my God. I put in so many messages from Patreon.

[B]

Yeah, you were rolling. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Here is a caffeine study. The genotype CYP1A2.

[B]

I call it CYP1A2. My brain is weird. Yeah, that's probably good.

[A]

And the ergogenic aid of cute caffeine intake on muscular strength and endurance performance in trained individuals.

[B]

And I like this study. I like some genetic studies.

[A]

And the reason I like this is you'll often hear caffeine recommendations are largely genetic based on MET metabolic processes with caffeine that you can isolate. And I'm always very cautious about caffeine recommendations because of that. And I think this study takes some pressure away and says caffeine basically helps everybody. It's just a matter of how much. And so you can probably tell what type of metabolizer you are from easily a genetic test. But even if you don't have that, how much caffeine you have in a day, if you have a pot of coffee, you're probably a pretty rapid metabolizer. And once you know that, you can figure out how to dose caffeine during races.

[B]

And I find the genetics of this fascinating too. So this is where I was like, I like this science. Um, so the SIP1A2 gene encodes the enzyme for a cytochrome P450 that's responsible for metabolizing caffeine. And so you can have different alleles for that enzyme. So you can have AA, which are fast metabolizers, AC, which are intermediate metabolizers, and CC, which are slow metabolizers. And like 10% of the population is that CC genotype. And so they're slow metabolizers.

[A]

And they theoretically would not respond as well to high doses of caffeine. Right. Because then it would just be in their system too long, it builds up

[B]

and causes like more caffeine related side effects.

[A]

Interesting. And then the fast metabolizers, they're probably the pot of coffee people.

[B]

What do you think you are?

[A]

I think I've gotten intermediate. I don't remember somewhere I have my 23andMe on this.

[B]

I think 23andMe has it. I also briefly, for like a year worked at a sports genetics company and we actually measured this. So I'm ac. I think you're AC too.

[A]

I mean, imagine like most things, most people are intermediate. Like muscle fiber typology works that way too, right?

[B]

No, I think it's like 10% and then it's like 45. 45 split for AC and AA.

[A]

Okay. Go yourself.

[B]

Okay, here's the part that's a mom fact.

[A]

It's a mom fact.

[B]

I think it's right. We can do some double checking on that.

[A]

No, no, let's just act like it's right.

[B]

You know what? No, I. I can't be a mom. I think it's right here.

[A]

Wait, did they say it?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

We're.

[B]

Okay, we're gonna pretend. We're gonna pretend we, We're.

[A]

It's worth it for the vibes and hey, we'll. We'll put a edit in the like, like description of the podcast if it's wrong.

[B]

Are we gonna put an edit about Noah Khan? Oh, no, I said Noah Kahan and man, that's wrong.

[A]

It's con or whatever.

[B]

It's con. But he. There's an A in there.

[A]

Yeah. I did learn last week that a lot of people are really, really into Noah.

[B]

Oh, Noah's. I mean, I get it. Like, I am. I mean, I'm like really into Noah, but not quite really, really really?

[A]

No, no, no, no, not even close. And I love it, but like, do

[B]

you want me to go harder?

[A]

Go hard? I mean, maybe he has a Netflix documentary out now.

[B]

Oh, we should watch it so we

[A]

can watch it tonight.

[B]

It just came out today and we can settle. I'm pretty sure it's Noah Khan and I was saying it wrong for like the first five minutes of the podcast.

[A]

The amount that it bothers you when you get things like fundamentally wrong.

[B]

Oh, it like it sits in my brain for a long time. Yeah, yeah. That extra A and Kahan is going to con is going to alter. Yeah. It's going to fuck me up.

[A]

Let it go like Queen Elsa, because

[B]

you're going to derail our podcast right now. Well, the thing is, I've learned to let it go in time and I feel like it's made us better.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, people are not listening to the podcast for a perfectly precise discussion of science. They're listening to the podcast for taints, Megan. They want taint.

[B]

I mean, that's pretty precise. You spend a lot of time, you're in the 99th percentile of looking up there.

[A]

I'm a rapid metabolizer of taints. Okay, okay. The fun part of this study for me is that that was the lame part. 94 or 94 resistance trained participants, 47 male and 47 female. But then here they did a randomized placebo controlled, triple blind crossover design. Hot damn, I've never heard of that. Well, of a executed study.

[B]

They were going hard.

[A]

They were going so hard. Um, and then they used strength and muscular endurance tests using bench press and back squats. Um, and the big finding was that there were just minor differences across the different genotypes. So even the slow metabolizers seem to respond positively, though not as positively. And, you know, that's pretty exciting, I think, because it means that that need fewer disclaimers on caffeine intake. Obviously the fast metabolizers can do the really high levels, but this in the slow metabolizers probably wouldn't want to do that. They'd probably have negative effects. But overall, this is just a vote for caffeine as a ergogenic aid.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like for a lot of studies, I've kind of like had this vibe that for slow metabolizers, caffeine isn't has an ergolytic effect, which means that it's like a negative effect. But here it is. It's ergogenic. Yeah, it's improving performance, even just slightly. And I feel like it's helpful, like if you don't have those genetics done to have confidence that like caffeine might still work. And just going by feel is helpful.

[A]

Yeah. And caffeine for performance, God, it's one of those things that it's just so helpful. I had a big discussion of this on the David Only bonus pod, actually, where a listener wrote in with a great question on clean sport and essentially saying, where is the line? Where are the lines drawn?

[B]

With caffeine intake?

[A]

No, no, with other things. Ketones, bicarb, all the things we talk about. And I drew two points that I wanted to bring out. The first is that we have a rules based system, so WADA guidelines, things like that. And that once that system evaluates a substance and determines whether, you know, obviously if it's illegal, fuck that. And you know forever, like you can't ever even think about it. But if it's not illegal, like ketones, they've evaluated that, then it's fine, whatever people want to do. But on the second point that I made was that there's a complication there which is if it has not yet been evaluated by the system for whatever reason, because like, usually those are substances that have not been talked about publicly very much, then it is an ethical question that is much more important. Like these are the gray area type things. And for me that means no, you

[B]

know, what would you put in the gray area in terms of like evolving supplements or evolving things you've heard about people doing?

[A]

Well, the example that, that I can talk about was a few years ago, the BPC 157, one of those peptides that is all the rage in influencer circles now, was being taken by some athletes before it had been evaluated by WADA because it wasn't illegal yet. And then it was valued by WADA and made illegal.

[B]

And they can go back and do retrospective drug tests on it too.

[A]

Well, can they?

[B]

I don't think they can rule it.

[A]

I don't, I don't know how it works. Yeah, the big thing is you shouldn't be taking anything that you think impacts performance like that. But has, is not public.

[B]

Well, I think they can, right, because wasn't like drugs like epo, weren't necessarily WADA banned back in like.

[A]

Well, no, they were banned.

[B]

Were they banned like all the way back then?

[A]

They just couldn't test for it.

[B]

They couldn't test for it.

[A]

Okay. So I don't know exactly how it works. I haven't paid attention to it, but that was my ethical framework. For it. And then in the context of that question to like push back against the listener. It was caffeine is the ultimate performance enhancer. But WADA has evaluated it and taken off all restrictions on caffeine use.

[B]

And they used to have restrictions.

[A]

They used to have some over massive, massive doses. And I think NCAA still might have a couple. But it just points out that like, oh well, you know, the ethical gray area kind of gets lifted by the rules based system which is so wonderful. Be easy not to think about it. Long story short, caffeine is the thing like everything we talk about on the background of like caffeine improves performance more for most people is probably a good thing to remember.

[B]

It's also kind of wild when you think about it with life performance too of like, you know, we think about caffeine very precisely with this podcast. Like on the way over to recording the podcast, we're drinking Matcha and just how much it kind of dials up and turns up the brain and motivation levels. Like for me, if I'm ever feeling low motivated, like I'll take some precision hundred caf and feel real good.

[A]

Yeah. Um, and so just to look at the results here, the mean velocity that they were measuring for these lifts increased by 4 to 12% in the fast metabolizers, 3 to 9% in the intermediate people. And then the slow metabolizers only showed minor changes less than or equal to 4%. So the slow metabolizers do have a different concern. And if you've ever noticed weird things with caffeine, get the genetic test because that will guide you a little bit. And then you might want to stick more to Megan's 25 milligram caffeine gels rather than David's 100 milligram all the

[B]

time go to mars approach. Yeah.

[A]

And maybe I'm even a fast metabolism. I'm not sure.

[B]

Actually it's a good question. I don't know if 23andMe directly measures this genotype. I feel like they actually do now host they put together as looking at multiple genes together. And the company that I was working for actually directly measured this genotype. And so I have a question as to how it's done and if you can actually just find that information on 23andMe.

[A]

Yeah, this is the one place in the genome where specifically looking at this one thing can be helpful. Often the genome works across the entire genetic code, which is so wild. I mean genetics is the coolest area. This is why I was going down anthropological rabbit holes.

[B]

It's so cool. And you can create polygenic risk scores based off of like 200,000 different spots within the genome. They actually do this for bone density.

[A]

And they can have no idea why they work.

[B]

Yeah. And actually, oftentimes they don't. They're like. And they're like, searching for things you like mine. There's different databases online where you can be like, what does this gene possibly do?

[A]

Yeah. And meanwhile, though, here, this encodes for the enzyme that Megan mentioned that is responsible for metabolizing 95% of ingested caffeine. So this is one place where like, like, boom, you're nailing it. And so, yeah, here's with caffeine during racing, maybe, like, I'm always hesitant to give exact advice, but if you're fast or intermediate metabolizer, I kind of like doing a hundred milligrams every two hours. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot that's aggressive, especially if you're going long. Like, you know, once you're going over 10 hours, you gotta be careful about that. But I've seen athletes kind of have a lot of success from that rather than waiting to the end of races. But be very, very, very careful and make sure that you understand your genetics, because if slow metabolizer did that, it would probably ruin their race.

[B]

Did you leave your genetics on 23andMe after they went bankrupt? Yeah. Yeah, I did, too. The same way we're talking about ranch pizza foreplay on the podcast. So my genes are good. It's actually kind of nice when you just put everything online. You're like, it's okay.

[A]

No, I agree. I'm just like, well, why be private about almost anything?

[B]

It's true. Yeah.

[A]

You know, now I'm not going to mention what I was going to mention.

[B]

We're going to talk about me getting scammed.

[A]

No, man. No. Actually, wasn't. That wasn't what I.

[B]

Well, were you going to mention the

[A]

thing I was worried about this morning?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But I'm not going to talk about my thing. Do you want to talk about your thing?

[B]

No, no. Users just infer we can talk about it. I mean, it's just maybe. Maybe I feel like we don't need five minutes to spend on me getting scammed. It was very funny.

[A]

It was very funny.

[B]

I did not actually get. I was very close to getting scammed. I did not.

[A]

Megan almost will need me to get hit by another car while biking.

[B]

I did not. I was good.

[A]

But you're so trusting and it's so beautiful and I love it about you.

[B]

Okay? This was a complex scam, but AI

[A]

makes it so that they can do things now that are bonkers.

[B]

It's actually like, everybody, be careful. Yeah, everybody be careful. Very scary.

[A]

Don't respond to anything ever.

[B]

I was responding in the doctor's office at all these, well, child checks. I was like, clearly, just a little bit like. Like being quick about it. And then I was like, wow, I'm about to get scammed.

[A]

No shame about getting scammed. I mean, or, you know, the risk of that. It happens to so many people and no one talks about it. So I'm very happy that you did because, like, there's probably thousands of listeners who have had situations that they're just like, oh, am I an idiot?

[B]

It also kind of, like, made me feel deeply uncomfortable, just in the sense of, like, them having access to my personal information. I can't remember. I don't think I gave them really any personal information, but I was just like, oh, my goodness.

[A]

Maybe that's because we put everything online.

[B]

I didn't know they already have it all.

[A]

Oh, no, Full circle.

[B]

Like, we know about your ranch dressing.

[A]

We have a reference for. From Jacques.

[B]

Jacques says it was good.

[A]

Super shoe study.

[B]

Nah, let's move on. Let's do questions.

[A]

No, no, let's do super shoes, too. No, I love science.

[B]

Okay. I mean, it's fun. I guess you can't love science more than I can. So we got it. We gotta do. I got the degrees, man.

[A]

Hey, hey.

[B]

I have a master's degree in Earth science.

[A]

Tell me how you really feel. That's amazing. You've never said anything about our relationship, and I love it so much.

[B]

No, I actually. You worked hard for that.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

You also have a jd. You got. You got a lot of degrees.

[A]

As. As you're saying, like, the different enzymes and stuff, their names. I'm like, that's an education I never taught.

[B]

Yes. I mean, who knows if I'm. I'm probably saying the enzymes. Like I said.

[A]

No, actually, a thousand percent agree. I mean, Earth science is amazing.

[B]

But you also did say this weekend. You're like, my toxic trait is that I could go to the moon. I think I could go to the moon in three months.

[A]

No, no, it's fine. You said the scamming thing. So we watched the Artemis land, and it was beautiful, and we were very emotional.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, the splashdown was so cool.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I've always said, actually,

[B]

but it wasn't a large body of water. I was Pretty cool about going to the moon until they landed in water.

[A]

Yeah, maybe I should thought twice about this. And so I said to Megan, as a joke, that my toxic trait, because I think I could be an astronaut that gets trained to go to the moon in two months.

[B]

Actually, you said three, to be fair.

[A]

Did I say three?

[B]

You said three.

[A]

Well, I think I could do it in two. Meanwhile, I hate roller coasters. I can't even do them.

[B]

You'd be vomiting before they even like it.

[A]

No. And the whole thing would go down because I'm incompetent with like cars and stuff. Like, I would add nothing and only lead to disaster. So, yeah, obviously I get it. But at the same time, I still think I could do it.

[B]

Also, you'd fuck up that space toilet for sure. What is your. Do you still love me?

[A]

Okay, moving on. That's the best joke. That's the best joke in the history of the podcast.

[B]

I've had like five burns. You need to burn me. Burn me. About getting scammed.

[A]

No, no, it's beautiful.

[B]

It's beautiful.

[A]

It's amazing. I love it.

[B]

It's just like, I was close to getting scammed. I did not get scammed.

[A]

You're just so lucky that the bank branch you went to was closed.

[B]

No, I wouldn't have done it. I was not going to wire many thousands of dollars to Clarence Rose.

[A]

Okay. Super shoe study. Performance benefits without added injury risk.

[B]

Question mark.

[A]

Effects of advanced footwear technology on running economy and biomechanical risk in recreational runners. Um, this had three shoes tested for 30 runners. The Vapor Fly Fleet 3. So a super shoe, the Invincible 3, which is Nike's like, max cushioned super trainer with PE cushioning that I actually

[B]

rarely see runners run in. I had that reflection. Do you have anyone training in the Invincible?

[A]

People love it.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

I don't know how much people run in it across the board, but it sells a of ton.

[B]

I mean, it sells really well and it looks very comfortable, but I feel like I never. Have you seen anyone run it and run in it in Boulder?

[A]

I mean, I'm not staring at people's feet. I am when shoes are on. Then the third was the Brooks Levy 85 levitate. Yeah, normal shoes. Oh, that makes more sense. And so it found that the Vapor Fly reduces oxygen costs, AKA improves running economy. We knew that would happen. But the levitate increased average and instantaneous load rate. And the Invincible had lower average low load rate than the vaporfly. The Levy Levitate had worse than both, though. The conclusion is advanced Footwear technology shoes combining peba foam. So the softer foams that Nike uses with a carbon fiber plate improved running economy. Without increases in the biomechanical variables examined which have been discussed in the literature in relation to running related energy trees, these shoes can enhance metabolic performance while PE only shoes like the invincible may better suit session focused on cushioning and impact management judgment. Big conclusion here. Every time you wear super shoes or these cushioned shoes, people are like, oh, you're going to get injured. The more we see on this, the more we see actually that shoe that doesn't protect you might be higher load rate. And the problem would be, well, what happens if you zoom this out over a long period of time that you adapt to the highly cushioned shoe, you develop poor running form. You actually develop a running form that causes worse loading, causes more injury. I think that is a problem that you really need to think about. But at baseline, if you just put a, a runner in a given moment in a super shoe or a highly cushioned super trainer versus like a normal shoe, there's probably better load rate in those other shoes which might lead to better injury outcomes.

[B]

Well, I love that you love science so much. You're like, I'm just gonna do it all. You just did the whole study. I love it. You crushed it.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

High five.

[A]

It's shoes.

[B]

It's shoes. You're like, megan, it's not science, it's fashion. Yeah, I love my. I love me some shoes. No, I agree. I think the one relevant thing here is that they held it at fair speed too. And I think that's interesting because with super shoes, you often run substantially faster, thus increasing load. And how does that translate over time? Or you just have so much joy from putting on a pair of vapor flies or alpha flies or whatever the super shoe is that you run faster and run a little harder because it feels good.

[A]

So the injury risk just comes from being faster.

[B]

Perhaps.

[A]

Perhaps. Yeah, maybe. Maybe every maybe. Caffeine causes high injury risk because it makes people go faster.

[B]

Like I must go to Mars or whatever bicarb.

[A]

I mean, I could, I could totally see that. That like. Because one of the reasons we recommend all these interventions is because if you train it, it's not that you just have it on the day, it's that you adapt to the new levels. You adapt to the new levels. But as you adapt to the new levels, there is more injury risk.

[B]

You get faster biomechanically. Yeah. You're putting out more stress on your body.

[A]

Yeah. Athletes that are trying to push the limits and see what they're capable of. Will will probably get injured a lot more than people that are just like, oh, I'm just going out to do the thing. Which is awesome. We totally support that. But we also are like, oh, well, what if running feels way better and you go farther and it's just more transcendent, you know, and then racist too. So, yeah, I'm sorry for doing all the science.

[B]

Oh, I loved it. I was just sitting here listening, like, this is great.

[A]

I got so into it.

[B]

Yeah, that's the thing is I like when you get into things. No, I uplift it. It was great.

[A]

Okay, you're just feeling bad about all the times you roasted me.

[B]

Yeah, I can't roast you again.

[A]

Please roast me. Roast me. I need it.

[B]

We're going to change our cadence taint count to a roast count here.

[A]

I'm a humor bottom.

[B]

You really are.

[A]

I don't know if that's an okay

[B]

joke to make, but I think it is.

[A]

We love you all. All right, let's get on to question answer. Anything to talk about before we get there.

[B]

Let's just get on to question answers.

[A]

Let's get there. First one on sleep. Hi, David and Megan, thanks for all you do. I would love another discussion about sleep sometime on the podcast, especially for those of us who sleep sucks due to longer work hours, kids, pets, anxiety, etc. At what point do you guys decide to skip workouts or dial training back due to lack of sleep?

[B]

Sleep. Yeah, sleep is tricky, actually. I feel like sleep is not my primary skill set and never has been. I'm trying. I'm really trying, but it's hard.

[A]

Yeah, you said midnight anxiety.

[B]

Every so often I feel like it's more menstrual cycle related. Like, you know, that luteal phase is

[A]

really tough at 2:00am oh, Megan, if I said that. If I said that I would roast you, you would be so pissed.

[B]

No, you can't roast anyone about the menstrual cycle, okay? It's not fair.

[A]

But if a guy comes in and says, where are you at in your menstrual cycle? What would you say to that yourself? No, I mean, I totally see that, but. But, you know, it's. Especially when we first met, like, sleep was not your thing.

[B]

And I've gotten better. I've worked on it over time, but now we have a bunch of sleep limitations of kids. Addie Dog sometimes wakes us up in the middle of the night, like work stuff randomly. And every so often, though, when I'm the limitation. I'm like, God damn it. That was like such a good opportunity for.

[A]

Oh, I see what you mean.

[B]

Tonight's continuous sleep. Yeah.

[A]

Like when you have anxiety.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, sleep is just one of those places where taking the pressure off is the first step. Like so many like influencers and and thinkers in this space will say sleep matters more than anything. Whatever. It's like, that is the worst way to approach any voluntary psychological process. Right? Like if you come to some guy and you're like, dude, have an erection now, it's not going to be great for him. Probably like most likely the one battle after another movie has a scene like that in the first 15 minutes. That's like, honestly, I turned it off. Which I know is like a really, you know, I'm not a great movie watcher. Like, this movie is not for me.

[B]

Did it give you anxiety?

[A]

No, no, it was just like I was watching it on the treadmill. I was like, these are not treadmill vibes. And I hear it gets amazing. Obviously it won all these awards, but like, yeah, you'll know what I mean based. If anybody saw it based on what I just said. So similarly with sleep, try to be like, all right, I'm going to give myself this much time relaxing. And if that comes with interruptions, it comes with interruptions. Like if you're going into the kids or whatever. But in that time, if your eyes are closed or you're lying in bed and you're doing just being relaxed, that counts. You know, you don't have to read every article there is on sleep hygiene or anything like that. Basically make it simple that if you're there and if you're relaxing, that is sleep. Don't worry about your watch telling you about your awake time or how much deep sleep or REM you had or anything like that. Just be like. And now we go be just like lying in a cocoon. And then we emerge from the cocoon and it's all good while I'm there.

[B]

And I think make it simple, make it consistent too. Like, I think consistent time of going to sleep at night, having a consistent bedtime routine. All very helpful when you think about, like, how that translates long term and also in terms of like how you feel too. And so like, we are very consistent. Like, I feel like most nights we're sleeping by 8:30. Like we have a whole routine with the kids. We start our bedtime routine at 7:15 with them. They're usually asleep by like 7:30, 7:45. We go to bed at 8:30. And that consistency is just so nice.

[A]

But I need to watch space videos.

[B]

You do. And I just fall asleep on your shoulder while you watch space videos.

[A]

I love these. Because Megan falls asleep. I can't watch anything that activates Megan. So no shows or anything. So on YouTube I just go through the space time videos. Hank Green has a lot of good space videos. Last night I was reading about or watching a video that was what exists outside the universe.

[B]

And I think at some point I can't. I don't know if I was like in REM as I was visualizing this. Like this was made by AI.

[A]

I was just like, this is all bullshit. This is, this is clearly made by AI. They were doing the same verbal things over and over again. And it was very interesting. And I was learning a lot about some scientists, scientific theories I didn't know, but it was. AI gives me the icky ick, which you can imagine why we deleted what we talked about last week. And for sleep, if you have trouble like staying asleep or falling asleep, I think there's different things you can take. So if you have trouble with sleep just at background, try Dream Shot from the feed. Some athletes say they take it and it changes their life forever. Um, and other athletes are like no difference at all. So give it three day try. If you've already had issues with sleep.

[B]

And it's nice because it's a non melatonin based sleep aid. And melatonin is often given in like super physiologic doses. Like, you know, we're talking like really high doses compared to what the body makes naturally. And to me sometimes I like struggle with that. And so Dream Shot kind of is a better alternative.

[A]

From that perspective, melatonin might have different responses for men and women. There's actually some studies now that are finding men might have testosterone increases for melatonin, but I've seen reverse for women.

[B]

I'm like, show me that study.

[A]

Yeah, I mean it was literally just one study.

[B]

Sounds like a study done by man. Yeah, they're like, I want to take my, my Sleep Elite every night.

[A]

And that's the other option is like if you were looking for the next step, Sleep Elite has, I believe, 3 milligrams of melatonin from Momentous. And I've taken that before. Leadville in 2024. I've taken Dream Shot before too. So there's different options for you to try to just give you a little nudge. Right. And don't get down about having to do that stuff. It's better than taking like, like you know, an Ambien or something, which, you know, some, some people need for sure. But Ambien has mixed science long term as it relates to longevity that you need to be very careful about. And probably, you know, these other things most likely don't, especially. Dream shot. Dream shot. The ingredients are simple, good. In some people it like hits their brain in the right way and for some people it doesn't. It probably is much like the caffeine thing that if we can isolate the genetics of who responds to dream shot, it'd be fantastic. But it's probably 50, 50 of like, like the bad sleepers who are immediately cured for the most part and the bad sleepers who don't notice that much of a change.

[B]

Agreed. And then I think as far as workouts go, I actually don't tend to adjust workouts a ton unless an athlete is really feeling fatigued and they're feeling it in normal life. Just because I feel like, you know, if I were adjusting workouts often because of sleep, I'd be laying there at 2am debating, I'd be like, am I gonna work out tomorrow? Am I not? Am I gonna easy run? And sometimes I feel like it's just easier to leave it as is and you know, to dial some of these things in around sleep. That being said, like if an athlete has a newborn or there's like substantial nighttime awakenings or shift work for athletes that are working like in a hospital or doing nighttime shifts, that's when I tend to change it. But I think doing it more like willy nilly to me, just causes anxiety.

[A]

Yeah. The problem is there's no way to blind participants in a study like this. But what I would love is a study that was able to tell athletes or not have athletes have any concept of what they did with sleep the night before and then perform, I bet we would see almost no performance differences.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

Even with really, really bad sleep nights because everything happens over much longer timescales. The body adapts and you know, yes, sleep is amazing. And I try to encourage athletes to be in bed for eight hours even if that's interrupted, even if you're only sleeping for one of those hours. Um, but if you are able to do that, if you're actually able to relax in that time, I bet we would see pretty similar performances. And the problem is that people get in their head about it. So long story short, we're just looking at can just, you're good, you're awesome, don't sweat it, you're gonna be fine. And if you're able to embody that, you'll actually probably sleep better too. And just lying there, it's like, as good as sleep.

[B]

It's nice. I come and lay on your shoulder when I can't sleep, and I just, like, hang out and it's great.

[A]

And I never put on deodorants. A sensory experience.

[B]

It's not that bad.

[A]

It's not that bad.

[B]

I mean, sometimes there's some interesting whiffs, but it's something.

[A]

Are those pheromones or there's something else?

[B]

No, those are something else. But it's all you, and I love it. Also, you stopped having sleep apnea. Have you?

[A]

Huh?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You sure?

[B]

I'm sure. I mean, I've spent a lot of time awake in the middle of the night.

[A]

Wow. Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Huh. We talked about this on the podcast before. I have been known, according to Megan, to do some breathing issues in the middle of the night.

[B]

And you tied it. You're like, this is my advantage. I'm building hemoglobin from New York.

[A]

Sleep. Sleep apnea. You. Not good for you, mostly. But it is much like altitude. It basically simulates an altitude tent where you're oxygen depriving yourself, so you have much higher hemoglobin levels. So sometimes you can diagnose people with sleep apnea from very high level, like hematocrit levels usually. So the percentage of red blood cells. So, yeah, I. I used to think that's why I did well at altitude.

[B]

Well, here's my theory is I often see sleep apnea associated with overtraining. Like, I feel like when athletes are overreaching a little bit, it tends to hit higher periods of sleep apnea. Just a random hypothesis. And I wonder if all the high carb fueling you've done and the really smart training of, like, mixing in biking and, you know, running and having this mix of training has put your body in a great recovery context.

[A]

Or maybe I just need to train harder.

[B]

Yeah. Or maybe just have a better pillow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your. Your sleep position's better.

[A]

Yeah. It's very curious. Maybe it's iron levels. You know, I'm supplementing more iron now than I used to, which is complicated. I have a very weird genetic context with all that, and I feel better with energy.

[B]

Yeah. But for whatever reason, it's nice. It's more romantic when you're not over there choking away.

[A]

I mean. Yeah, I'm just doing autoerotic asphyxiation.

[B]

By yourself?

[A]

Without the erotic part.

[B]

I mean, depends on the dream. I guess it really depends.

[A]

Okay, we're picking that back up with Megan's laugh.

[B]

I had to cough. Yeah, I've had to. Yeah. It's hard to podcast with a cough.

[A]

Some things happened in the place of that, too. Yeah. Yeah. And they're just sitting out.

[B]

I'll clean them.

[A]

You'll clean them?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know, Megan.

[B]

It's my mom's house, okay? I take her house very seriously.

[A]

Let's just do one or two more video games. We have to do this one. Hi, David and Megan. I've been listening for about six months now and recently signed up for Patreon. I just want to see how much your podcast resonates. I have two kids and really appreciate the way you talk about your athletic journeys and your own personal perspectives as parents. Your feedback and advocacy on fueling has also materially improved my training. David, I've heard you mention a few times that you like to play video games but struggle to find the time or I'd like to, but I haven't played video games since I was a kid. I figured I'd share a setup that has worked surprisingly well for me. I'm training for my first half Ironman, so my volume has been ramping up through the Boston winter. To make longer indoor rides more engaging, I set up my bike with arrow bars and put my computer on a desk in front of me. When I'm down on the arrow bars, I can comfortably hold an Xbox controller that is epic. Which I connect to my computer. The net result is that I've been able to play Skyrim while riding. I feel like that means rim jobs in the sky.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say never heard of Skyrim.

[A]

No, I actually know even though I don't play video games, I read about video games. Like, I do a lot of this. I don't know why I do this sort of thing.

[B]

Here's dad facts about video games.

[A]

Well, no, just Skyrim. Like, it's your typical.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

Big strategy game where you, like, go fight things. They all are. They're all similar. I actually finished it once, and I'm close to finishing a second playthrough. I hadn't played video games in about 10 years, basically since my first kid was born. So this has been a fun way to bring that back into the mix. It's probably not a totally novel idea, but it's been a great way to make longer sessions, something I look forward to. Thanks again for the podcast.

[B]

Arrow bars and video game controller. That's a Great idea.

[A]

I want to look up what Skyrim is, so.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. You could also never do this, David, because you ride so upright on our

[A]

Zwift, it's action role playing games. So, like I said.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Boom, boom. Rim jobs in the sky.

[B]

I mean, it kind of looks like it there on that photo.

[A]

I mean. Yeah, there's some stuff going on. Um, yeah, I'm too into it.

[B]

No, you're too upright on the pike, too. Uh, yeah. Whenever I ride, like, after you on Zwift, I have to drop the handlebars like, a solid 6 inches outdoors.

[A]

I'm really good at getting arrow and going fast. Like, that's how I ride outdoors.

[B]

Your position outdoors is great.

[A]

I want to put out power and be comfortable. Right. So, like, it's great on the Zwift ride. You can just raise the handlebars so high that I just can, like, have it straight up there.

[B]

You're basically riding a bike with, like, a flower basket indoors. Yeah. Yeah. And you're so into it. Okay. If you could play one video game, but it's back in the day because we have no video game knowledge now, what would it be?

[A]

Oh, from my childhood.

[B]

From your childhood?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's got to be GoldenEye on N64, actually. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I can't believe I said that. I'm so sorry, and I apologize to everyone who's offended. Perfect Dark, the semi sequel to goldeneye. So goldeneye was James Bond. The same video game company, I think it's called Rare, maybe made Perfect Dark subsequent. And that game was so good and so ahead of its time. I think it was, like, 1998, I'm guessing, and there was a weapon where you could shoot through walls.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And I have so many good memories of, like, obviously it wasn't that efficient to do this because you were doing it from a distance, but when you did it and it was like, on your brother or something, oh, my God, you would talk about it for weeks after. So that game was great. That would probably be number one.

[B]

Yeah. I was never allowed video games with weapons. And as I'm sitting here, I'm like, I kind of get why wait, what happened to me? I mean, you're talking about shooting through walls at your brother.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like they've actually had studies that it doesn't correlate in that way that it's. That's like a false fear, which makes sense.

[B]

This actually does make sense. Yeah.

[A]

You know, but, like, I'm sure social media is so much infinitely worse than video games.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

But then again, video games now are social media because, oh, you can interact

[B]

with people and there's.

[A]

Yeah, dude, this is old man conversation.

[B]

Yeah. Where, like, people are like, whoa, you haven't given your video game Crash Bandicoot.

[A]

What?

[B]

I know. I was. I was. Or FIFA.

[A]

Okay, that's a better answer. Crash Bandicoot.

[B]

Crash Bandicoot was so fun.

[A]

I don't even know what that is.

[B]

You don't even know what that is? Okay, I'm gonna show. I'm gonna look it up right now. You're gonna see what this looks like.

[A]

Megan Searching Crash Bandicoot. Sex position.

[B]

It's this little fox.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

It's made by Naughty Dog.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Dude, do you never played. You never played Crash Bandicoot.

[A]

Did you have your sexual awakening to Crash Bandicoot?

[B]

I actually did play Crash Bandicoot.

[A]

I actually did have my sexual awakening.

[B]

Play Grash Bandicoot on the bike.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. I remember you told me that you used to play. It was so fun much in this manner.

[B]

Yeah, I was, like, training for soccer and would, like. I would come home and have, like, a huge slice of cake, go downstairs and play Crash Bandicoot on the exercise bike.

[A]

That's what we're calling it now.

[B]

From school. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Um, yeah. But actually, I mean, this. I love this. I'm into Zwift as my video game right now. Just like the riding in the game world.

[B]

Oh, it's so fun.

[A]

Feels to me almost like riding outside, in the sense of I feel as if I explore. You can just show me a map of Watopia, which is the main world ends with now. Not the roads, but just the elevation profile. And I can tell you which road it goes on. Which. Anyone who's ever been in the world would feel that way, though. Maybe that's just male overconfidence, but to me, that is fun to engage with. So I just do that and listen to the Ultimate Swap playlist.

[B]

Well, pace groups are going to change it. I mean, I love. I get. I love writing in Swifts, but I feel like pace groups are going to make this, like, so helpful for me.

[A]

Absolutely. Dude, we have so many questions.

[B]

We do.

[A]

Maybe next week we just do a question episode. No, because we have Boston and studies.

[B]

Yeah. And also we'll have alone time, so we can just look at scientific studies.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Instead of texting them to each other, we can just look at them side by side. It's gonna be great with Some pizza.

[A]

Okay, let's go on the listener corner. Before that, what do we have to talk about? John Gianji.

[B]

How do you like my bra right now?

[A]

It's amazing.

[B]

This is the long bra.

[A]

There's cactus on it.

[B]

Yeah. This is actually one of my athletes favorite artist Abigail west designed this one. I think it's sold out. But the long bra in general is amazing.

[A]

Yeah. We got a message. Diana, put it on here. Shoot. Someone said that the bra you mentioned last week.

[B]

Oh, the RD bra.

[A]

The race bra has fully changed the game.

[B]

Oh, that's so cool.

[A]

They said that it was like the most fundamentally life changing bra they've ever had.

[B]

Okay. We need to bring that message to the pod next week.

[A]

Okay. So the RD bra.

[B]

The RD bra. Yeah.

[A]

Well, you get the idea.

[B]

Yeah. We talked about it last week. It's amazing. I don't have the exact name of it, but it's new. It's on the John G website and it is so great. It's like a crop. And for racing, you can actually fit a whole soft flask in the back of the bra, which is, to me is wild.

[A]

That's so cool.

[B]

Yeah, I could actually. That means. Yeah, that actually opens up a. I'm just doing the math here about how that opens up my adventure capabilities.

[A]

Their pants and shorts are just incredible. Go to their website, click on those. Join the John g. Collective for 15% off. It rocks. And I think we're gonna get to see John G. Mike in Boston.

[B]

I was gonna bring that up. That's part of our itinerary and I'm pumped. I love John G. Mike.

[A]

The only thing we're doing, we're playing low and supporting athletes. Like we really want to. To just be focused.

[B]

Actually, I've already scheduled a few things for us.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. No.

[A]

With people I love Megan, no, we can't. No, this is coaching. I know, I know. But like, this is very.

[B]

You're like.

[A]

Even though we're having fun, this is incredibly serious. Sorry. I've literally said no to, like, everything. So we like, you can do whatever

[B]

you want, but you're like, I'll send you on ambition.

[A]

No, I mean, we should. We should. Like, this is a very important moment for people. So.

[B]

Oh, yes. You're there for a reason.

[A]

It's a business trip.

[B]

The business business.

[A]

You can hear how I actually feel about coaching coming out, which is like, this is not a time socialize. This is a time to be serious. Okay. On to listener corner. It's the long one. Should I do it?

[B]

Oh, my goodness gracious.

[A]

Okay, this one makes.

[B]

Are you gonna read the whole thing?

[A]

This one makes me feel good.

[B]

I think it gives you the warm and fuzzy feelings.

[A]

Yeah, it does. Here it is.

[B]

Just like half of it. Give you the warm and fuzzy feelings.

[A]

I'll see what I can shorten as I go. Taking a break from the occasional random message to thank you both for building an amazing, welcoming and supportive community. Community. This past Saturday, I ran my. Ran my first 50 mile race. Um, I originally planned on running this race in many, many years ago. Um, and then it talks about how their journey took another path. Then I just happened to listen to David's interview on the Rich Roll podcast. I know you get a ton of messages regarding the next part and you're probably tired of hearing about it, but that's the way it goes sometimes. The Road to Western States series got both my wife and I into swap, and we have been big fans and pod listeners ever since. Since we were lucky enough to live close enough to the finish line of Western States that we came out on a date night to watch David finish.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Instead, we got to have a quick conversation with both of you on the side of the high school track. You two could have told us to please leave you alone or any number of things that wouldn't have been out of the ordinary given the circumstances. But instead, you welcomed the conversation with a random couple and were nothing but encouraging and genuinely happy to chat. The moment gave me the push I needed to get over the fear of failing. I showed up to the start line of the 50 miler in my swap hat and had one of the best experiences on the trail. Flashing potato hands at anyone who would look my way. I was hoping to just beat the cutoff. I finished in the top 25%. Whoa. And could have imagined it. Could not imagine it going any better. Thank you both for being great humans and bringing love and support for each other in the world around you to the podcast every week without fail. The world would be a better place if there were more people like you two in it. Sorry, that got longer than expected. Tldr me. Western States got me to the start line in my own goal race. You two are amazing people. We love you.

[B]

That is so beautiful. I was thinking about that a lot. This week actually is like, what happens if you give yourself the permission to fail and the permission to take a chance and know that failure is an option and do it anyways. And it's like a lot of cool things happen and I feel like we get a Lot of messages. David, I know I've roasted you a lot this podcast episode, but, like, Megan,

[A]

Megan, you're just doing this because you're worried about roasting.

[B]

I am not worried about. I'm actually very excited about roasting. Yeah, I'm not worried about it, but I do feel like your journey to Western states, like, resonated with a lot of people in the sense of, like, not fearing failure in quite the same way. And I just, like. I think that might be, like, one of the most important messages to leave to the world.

[A]

Wow. Thank you. And to this listener, we remember that conversation, and you talking about this, and to hear that you went and did it almost a year later is the coolest thing in the world. We are so proud of you. And this is every. This is what life's about. This is what training's about or whatever. Who cares how fast you go? In the end, it's about this type of journey, because if you do this, what else can you do in life? Um, and then. Yeah, I mean, it's relevant with Western states because not gonna be doing canyons. Sorry, everybody.

[B]

Oh, mic drop moment. Well, I mean, there's still time.

[A]

I'm not gonna do it.

[B]

Okay. I've been, like, still holding out. I think the day where you fell was kind of gonna be, like, your deciding day. And what made you decide against?

[A]

Just. I'm not resilient enough right now just to put this on myself. Like, I. I need more physical and mental resilience to be ready to hurt like that. Um, and, you know, I think I know what it entails now, and I. My fitness is not bad. Um, and maybe if this race was close, I could do it, but I. I just know that in the context of it, I would not be my best self.

[B]

What do you mean by close? Like, close in terms of, like, location, proximity.

[A]

Yeah, it was like, you got me to do Leadville the week before. Um, this is a little different. So not gonna be doing that. So no Western states this year. I'm so sad I'll go fail at other things.

[B]

I know. I know you can fail at whatever you want, but, like, for whatever reason, I really wanted you to show up ready to fail at West.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, when I handed on the golden ticket, like, this was the expected outcome all along, and, yeah, there's mixed feelings about that. But you know what? This is what life's about, and maybe I can be a pacer for somebody. Like, cons.

[B]

Ooh, wouldn't that be fun? That makes that Actually makes me very excited.

[A]

Run the part of the trail I missed.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, it's. I like, it's funny how much I care that, like, I've been holding onto that canyon's goal for you for a long time. And so I might need a period of grieving for that. For that goal. And I feel like people feel similarly, too. Like, I was just so excited to watch you go for it. And I, like, respect, I think, like, you know, your health and your foot health is the most important thing. And, like, if you did Western states, I don't know if you could race Leadville at the top level. And I know how important that is to you. Sorry if I'm giving away your goals, but.

[A]

Oh, no, that's totally fine. You would just pause. I'm like, I don't give a fuck. I mean, especially someone's listening this long in the podcast.

[B]

We love you. We love you, your family. Thank you.

[A]

So you need a period of grieving, you said? Yeah, your period did just start before the podcast. You now have about three or four days for a period of grieving.

[B]

Actually, now I have, like, 14 because I'm on a goddamn IUD. This is what women's birth control is like.

[A]

Maybe it'll be better this time.

[B]

Maybe it will be better.

[A]

Yeah, I like the period of grieving, too. It's also cool to see the reflection on the Rich Roll podcast, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I think it just also, that shows specifically how much self judgment is just not helpful in life. And this is a place where I have grown a lot from this whole experience the last two years is. Remember, I recorded Ritual. We talked about this on the podcast. You can go back and listen. September 2024, and we talked about the experience, and I hated myself.

[B]

You thought you did so poorly, to the point that, like, the afternoon after we were, like, at the Pacific Ocean with Leo. It was like, the first time you saw the ocean and you were, like, palpably sad.

[A]

I was pouting about myself.

[B]

Not about palpably.

[A]

Not pouting, but, yeah, no, I was pouting.

[B]

You're.

[A]

Yeah, I was pouting. You said palpably. Right? I said pouting, Right?

[B]

I thought you thought I said pouting. And I was like, you weren't pouting. You're just sad.

[A]

Up that word to my head. And, you know, for a listener like this, it resonated. You know, I think vulnerability often feels kind of shitty when you do it, and it's just kind of cool that, like, I don't know, you show up over and over again. Eventually you get comfortable just being vulnerable, and it's always going to feel kind of shitty. So maybe the biggest vote here is to go do whatever that thing is that scares you and just not judge yourself on the other side. Because, you know, if you're like me, you're just always going to think you could do better or. Or be better, help people more. And that's not the way it is.

[B]

It's such a human thing to feel that way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe a Constance thing, too.

[A]

A Constance thing?

[B]

Do you think she feels that way?

[A]

I don't. I mean, Constance can go pretty wrong.

[B]

She can do a lot of things.

[A]

Jacques. Jacques.

[B]

I might just move on from Jacques. I dropped him.

[A]

You did drop Jacques.

[B]

I did drop Jacques, yeah.

[A]

Dude, are you gonna be doing constants with me?

[B]

No, no, no, no. That's. That's a full walk per kilogram. Higher. Absolutely not.

[A]

Oh, Megan. We could have a threesome with Constance.

[B]

I can hold it for, like, 20 minutes.

[A]

Maybe that's all we need.

[B]

That's all we need. That's all we need. Actually, no, I can probably do it longer than that.

[A]

You got 30 seconds in you.

[B]

Yeah. That's all you need.

[A]

We love you all. What a rough way to end it.

[B]

That's not rough.