David (1:11)

It was some of the most endorphins I've ever had in my life. Was sitting there on our 15th floor window at the Moxie Hotel in downtown Boston. Constant sirens never stopped. Steam coming out of the ground every single second. I don't know exactly what that's about, but it seems problematic.

Megan (1:26)

And we were right there in it because our. Our like, hotel room was so small, but the bed was right next to the window. And honestly, it kind of freaked me out.

David (1:33)

Yeah. But then after you have this coffee, you could literally fly if you had to. It's not even a worry to be at that height. You could just jump from building to building.

Megan (1:40)

It made me feel so good. And then we looked up the caffeine content of a medium Dunkin Donuts coffee and it was like 270 milligrams. And I was like, well, shit, no way.

David (1:52)

It was the best moment of our lives. So we had a great weekend in so many ways. Uh, we're gonna talk everything about the Boston Marathon in this episode, so let's just get right to it since we're recording a little bit later than usual after our flight back last night. So quick roadmap we're going to do on everything on Boston. Featuring the Boston American record from Jess Frickin McLean.

Megan (2:11)

Oh, my goodness gracious. I feel like I'm still riding the hype train.

David (2:14)

Oh, my God. It is just wild. So huge. PR 5th fastest time ever by an American on any course. Jess has just kept progressing for just, I mean, years now, and it's such an honor to be a part of her journey in coaching. We got to spend so much time with her and her family this weekend, and it was just incredibly special.

Megan (2:32)

Also, it's a gift as an athlete myself, to see, like, her level of athlete and how she prepares for a race like this, which is just like, on Saturday night, having so much fun at dinner. And I was like, I love this. Just seeing, like, chill Jess. And then, you know, seeing her the day before the race when it was like, serious game face business time and kind of seeing that progression, I was like, I just love this.

David (2:51)

It was remarkable. And then our Boston Hot takes, we gave a couple of them already. A study on cycling training and how that overlaps with similar studies from running. A study on tart cherry supplementation, possibly. Maybe a study on ketones. That could be next week.

Megan (3:03)

Okay. I like the study on ketones.

David (3:05)

It's cool. It answers a question that we've wanted answered.

Megan (3:07)

It does. I feel like it answers the question better than the tart cherry study, which is kind of like, eh, we don't know. This is low quality evidence. So maybe we should replace tart cherry with ketones.

David (3:17)

Or maybe we rapid fire them. People want to know about the supplements. That's what's hot right now.

Megan (3:22)

Do we have enough caffeine for that?

David (3:24)

Oh, yeah. No dunking here.

Megan (3:26)

Are you having withdrawal today?

David (3:27)

No, I feel good still. I think it lasts for multiple days.

Megan (3:30)

I don't know. Today I've had two awake teas, I've had a precision 100 calf gel, and I've had half Dr. Pepper. And I'm like, it's not touching it. I need my Duncan bag.

David (3:39)

Well, I can make your tea for you and just tell you you're a bitch. And then it's gonna work just like Duncan. It's gonna hit so hard. And then questions on barefoot running, iron dozing and the cultural Evolution of running. Who knows what we're gonna get to today because we are just sp flying so high on Boston. But before we get to all that, quick promo for the feed, because the coolest deal of the year is going on right now, so every single person out there listening can get 25% off your order. So now is the time to stock up for summer in the feed birthday sale. Go to the feed.com birthday sale. You can just go to our show notes and click it. But 25% off is a deal that's never coming again. This is remarkable. It's on almost every product and this is the time to make sure you have everything you need for summer and save so much money.

Megan (4:21)

It's so clutch. Also, I didn't realize the feed was 12 years old. I should have gone back in, like, the evolution of their history and understood that that's kind of. They're old.

David (4:28)

Yeah, we came along late.

Megan (4:29)

Yeah. Feed needs their retinol cream. No, but it's actually, it's really cool to think about, like, their journey over the 12 years and how they've gotten to this point. But 25% off also a good way to celebrate.

David (4:41)

You really can't go wrong. The best gels, the best drinks, best recovery things on the market, the best watches. Basically, you can get electronics there to go to the feed, look at their birthday sale. It's going to change your life. Just because, you know, you order $500 worth of stuff and you're saving over a hundred bucks. It's such a good opportunity right now.

Megan (4:58)

Okay, we need to order something immediately after this podcast, which is beta recovery drink. I am out of it. And so I'm trying to make all these different concoctions with, like, scratch recovery mix and tossing in some whey protein. And honestly, like, I love those things, but it's just not the same.

David (5:11)

You know, what you need is an email from Matt from the feed with it that just says, you're a bitch, Megan. Take the sciences for beta recovery. And it's going to work so well.

Megan (5:19)

Can you imagine that's like the synergy between Duncan and beta recovery? Oh, my gosh. Exactly what I need.

David (5:24)

That's exactly what we need. Okay, so let's talk about Boston. And we got to start with Jess McLean. And this is partially biased, but also partially not, because what she did out there was truly remarkable. 2 hours, 20 minutes, 49 seconds, setting the Boston American record by over a minute. By over 70 seconds. Um, and just seeing her go through the process was one of the Cooler performance psychology, things I've ever witnessed. So we know a lot about the training. We might talk a little bit about that. But that's also not our story to share on this podcast, though, I was thinking, how about this? I sell all of her garment files to people that want to know. What do you think?

Megan (6:03)

Actually, I saw that Cities Mag is releasing splits from some of the top athletes. Like Sharon Lichetti was on there. Um, I saw Talby from the US on there, and I'm like, we need to get Jess's splits on there. It was pretty remarkable. Like some of her 5k splits in the final close of this marathon. I was like, what is happening right now?

David (6:20)

Running five minute miles.

Megan (6:21)

Yeah. They said actually on the, like, the live feed that she could have won the 5k in the context of the marathon, I think it was Sharon. Yeah.

David (6:28)

I'm not sure if Jess. But it would have been closed. Yeah. And, you know, I would love to give all of her workouts. And so, hey, we're opening it up for a price. I don't think Jess would mind us.

Megan (6:37)

Yeah, Jess would be like, give this a charity.

David (6:39)

But so let's zoom back just for her journey. So after the Atlanta Half Marathon, which was the US Half Marathon champs, we did a whole episode basically devoted to the aftermath of that, where she was directed off course. And what broke my heart so much was that she didn't get the experience of crossing the finish line, because in the end, it was all rectified. She got the prize money, she got the world's team spot, she got the national championship, um, and took a while, took a little bit too long, but that stuff all came. And so at Boston, you know, we're going to talk about a lot of the things that happened out there both before and during the race, but she got the experience of running down Boylston to finish this race and going into fifth place overall, which is truly remarkable.

Megan (7:20)

Making a pass on the final home stress, just looking so smooth at 4

David (7:24)

minutes, 40 seconds per mile with her arms up, smiling, and that's everything that is an athlete that has. No one deserves it more. And, you know, just even thinking about it now, it's. It's emotional. I mean, Boston's an emotional event overall. Like, everything about it is. And Jess just embodied that more than anybody I've ever seen this year.

Megan (7:43)

And I feel like that experience of having the Atlanta situation and, like, you know, rallying through that and coming back to Boston has also hardened her in, like, some beautiful ways. So at one point around, like, mile 19, 20ish.

David (7:55)

Oh, this was the moment of the race. This was insane.

Megan (7:57)

She was wearing gloves, which respect. She's from Arizona. She's like, it's freaking freezing out here.

David (8:02)

This might have been my fault, too. The number of times I checked the weather and texted like, you're going to want gloves and arm sleeves out there. Because she, you know, burns cold. Like, she's very heat acclimated because we were preparing for heat. I think I might have been the one that caused this problem.

Megan (8:16)

Nash, after the race, she was like, I was happy. I. But she fumbled a bottle. And the bottle, you know, has her gel on it, has her carbs, everything that she needs. And she went back. This was like when she was in the lead group. And things are really starting to heat up at this point in time. Yeah.

David (8:30)

And this is. As you're watching, you know this, and Jess obviously knows this since, you know, she understands how this race is going to unfold. And we had the race discussion that. So when you get to 16 miles, you are ready to respond to every move. And Sharon located was in the group, and she ran 2:17 last year at Boston, so we know what she can do. And the group was on like 2:22 pace at the time. So at some point, this is going to go nuclear. And it was right at that moment that Jess fumbled the bottle, which is. It's so hard to get a bottle at that pace, especially with gloves on. And what do you do in that moment? That's the question for all listeners. What do you do when this pack is moving at 5 minute per mile pace and if you lose it, you probably are gone forever?

Megan (9:08)

Well, I know what I would do. I'd be like, I'm going with that

David (9:10)

pack same, like, yeah, you know, I'm

Megan (9:12)

the ultimate carbs girl, but carbs be gone in that situation. It's like I'm staying with a pack.

David (9:17)

I never thought I'd say this, but fuck carbs.

Megan (9:18)

Yeah. Like, seriously. But Jess made this, like, basketball backtrack, pivot move.

David (9:23)

Yeah.

Megan (9:23)

Went back, got her carbs and, you know, got her bottle that she retrieved, like, kind of like off the table. Ish. And then had to back. You know, she had to come back

David (9:31)

to the group, which is wild at that pace. I mean, that moment is one of the ultimate ones in running history because. Let's zoom back. You know, we have Atlanta where there's this wrong turn, and so we're watching on the TV and you see this bottle fumble, and then you see her go back and your Heart sinks because this is the end of the race.

Megan (9:49)

Our heads, our heart sink because it's like you also understand the adrenaline context of when that happens. And like thinking about like the heart rate spike of like a heart rate, and we saw it in her file, her heart rate spiked to like 183 in that moment. And it's really hard to come back from an adrenaline context like that.

David (10:03)

And then the camera cuts off and it goes to a commercial or something and we're like, oh man, this is just like Atlanta. The camera's gonna come back and you know she's gonna be in 10th place and it's just the way it is. And that's not what happened because as soon as the camera cuts back, Jess is running in the lead. And I went back into her file to look at where that was. And this was such an interesting decision. This was like a Michael Jordan, Caitlin Clark moment where not only did she was like, oh, I'm going to bridge this. She put in a surge where she went under 5 minute per mile pace for a period of time. And I don't look at running power as a metric. That's super interesting, especially when you're wearing a Garmin watch and not a stride pod. But it is interesting in the sense that across a single athlete, it will equalize for hills, or at least try to, especially when it knows the roads. And so she went from a background of like 350 watts. Again, watts in running don't mean anything. But from like a background of 350 watts all the way up to 483 watts to bridge back over a couple hundred meters. And that is what let her get in the group and that's what let her make history. And this level of history, like, for those that don't understand the Boston Marathon, it's like, I think it's tough to truly get the magnitude of this, but this makes Jess a legend forever. She's been a legend as a human forever. But if this is the last race she ever runs, she's going to have a red carpet for her at Boston for the rest of her life to just come and give speeches, because this is a record that I don't think is going to be broken for a very long time.

Megan (11:29)

Isn't that so cool? And it was amazing just to see her response to the result in general, but also even some of the trials and tribulations, like that moment where she's like, you guys, I made a half mile wrong turn at Atlanta. She's like, what is backtracking 20 meters to go, get this bot bridging back to the group. And I just love how tough she is and how witty, but also just, like, how real. And I feel like when you see an athlete who runs a 220 finish and they're just so real, it's the coolest thing. And I feel like I love seeing, like, history being made and then being made by someone who's just real and witty and a class act, you know, else is real.

David (12:05)

What, carbs?

Megan (12:06)

Yeah. I mean, it probably powered. She probably needed that.

David (12:09)

Oh, yeah, she did. And she knew that.

Megan (12:10)

Yeah.

David (12:10)

And she was able to know that in the moment. So, like, obviously, if I think back and if I was in that position, I would want to go back for the bottle, because you need to. You're right on the edge, and you have to take in high carb. It's the only way to do these marathons. And she realized how important it was. And I think that points out the lesson of marathon racing in general that we're seeing at Boston. So there were fast conditions this year with really good weather, and so every athlete knew it could go fast. And I guarantee. I mean, I can't absolutely guarantee, but every athlete in the top 15 of those, the men's race and the women's race, they were taking in high carb. And so for Jess specifically, she was around a hundred grams per hour. And if she had missed that bottle, though, that's 40 grams of carbs that she loses. And that's just impossible. You can't compete at that level when you're on the edge if you miss that. And so I thought that that was the perfect, like, example, actually, of how important it is that it's worth, like, re ending your race just in that specific moment, because otherwise, you know, it's inevitably gonna be ended later. And the carbs have just changed how everybody runs these races.

Megan (13:11)

It's so wild, actually. And I feel like it's changed the pacing strategy. It's changed the surges of, like, athletes being able to cover surges and everything. Okay. But the other thing I loved about Jess is that after the race, we were talking to her, and she's like, I actually have no idea the splits I ran. And she did look at her watch

David (13:27)

once at halfway, only once.

Megan (13:29)

And I think that's so cool for, like, a athlete at this level running a 2:20 marathon, getting, you know, top American at Boston to only check your watch once and just be in the competitive moment so much. And I actually heard that Sharon Locketty left her watch in the bus. Yeah. And it's like, I feel like the top athletes just going out there and competing on vibes is so cool. And I think we can all take a lesson. Like, sometimes I feel like I'm a chronic watch looker just because. Not for, like, judgment, but it's just entertaining.

David (13:54)

Yeah, you do like it. I was running with you on the Charles river, which is amazing at Boston. The best energy of all time. We got to meet so many podcast listeners, and every time we got near a mile, Megan would be checking her watch pretty darn consistently.

Megan (14:05)

Okay. But it was kind of fun. I understand the splits on the Charles River. It's like three miles. I'm like, jogging, and I'm like, Jesus Christ. Sea level and, like, flat. I, like, never run on that here.

David (14:15)

It's entertaining for you.

Megan (14:16)

It was so fun. And that's the thing is, like, I feel like I wouldn't do it if I had a judgmental relationship, but it kind of. It's like staring at my watch on the treadmill. I'm like, what else am I supposed to do? It keeps me occupied, but maybe I should do it less.

David (14:27)

I mean, I think Jess's relationship with data training, generally, all of it, is just so fascinating because, you know, she has that element in her. And we were talking about this before the race when we were starting to lock in. Right. Like, she has so many responsibilities along with some of the other top athletes here.

Megan (14:41)

Well, that's. I mean, the cognitive load that she had on her before this race. She was on podcasts, she was on panels. She was out there at the finish line. And, I mean, she was, like, busy.

David (14:51)

So busy. I mean, busy to an extent that, like, I'm just there by association. And I was tired. I was like, I have 1200 milligrams of caffeine in my system, and I've been called a bitch by multiple Dunkin Donuts employees. And I'm still done right now. And, you know, I was just talking to her, and, like, you know, we all know each other well at this point, and it's obvious that, you know, Jess is this delightful person, but also has that, like, edge that. That thing that separates the true performers, the people that just make it happen when it's time to happen. And that she was getting ready to express that at the same time, while she was being so delightful and open to everyone. And so as we were talking about race plan, you know, it was essentially just how it unfolded, and it's so remarkable to see what she ended up doing because she crosses the finish line. And you're listening to these interviews and she's like, well, I don't know if I can ever do anything like that again. Like, she knew in the moment. How special is that? It's like the exact opposite of Atlanta, where none of that experience has happened. At Boston, she literally crosses the line and is like, well, that was something.

Megan (15:56)

I think she actually said what happened?

David (15:58)

What just happened. And I mean, I was saying the same thing. Coincidentally, I didn't realize that's what she said. And that's how I let off my recap of the race. You know, 2:20 is so fast. It's. It's unbelievable at Boston. And, you know, to do what she did out there is just. Yeah, it's one of the most special moments of my life. I can't imagine what it's like for Jess and everybody that loves Jess, which is a huge, like, it's. Honestly, it's probably hundreds of thousands of people. And if you're out there, you've never met Jess. Just know she loves you too. Just like, just seeing how she interacted with fans. Maybe the last thing I want to talk about Jess too much more so she can go on the podcast circuit and talk about herself is we were at dinner on Saturday night with her and her family, which was more full of love than almost anything I've ever experienced.

Megan (16:41)

I actually loved it so much. I just sat there and kind of took it all in and I was like, this is the most wonderful pre race vibe of people. Just like her family was having a great time.

David (16:49)

Great time.

Megan (16:50)

Like a great time. And it was so independent of Jess. Like, I think they, you know, they're ride or digest. And so, like, they obviously wanted to

David (16:56)

perform that Jess thrives when it's not just about running. Right. And at that dinner, though, a woman came up and told Jess that she loves her and how much she's her hero. Just took the time and made her a part of the family for a few minutes. And it's like, that's what it's about. So even if the race had been terrible, it would have been such a magical, like, full circle moment for Jess, now top American two years in a row. Boston. It was basically the American national championship for women. Bodes so well for the future. But this is one of those don't think about the future moments. Just take it all in. So cheers. Huzzah to Jess McLean.

Megan (17:33)

Actually, Huzzah is relevant because Amanda Vestry, who also coach good friends with Jess and They just went around all weekend just being like. And I love that so much.

David (17:41)

Amanda224PR. And what's so cool about Amanda's 26 years old. She's still, like, on such a upswing with her journey that I just know within a year or two, her poster is going to be on the wall of kid runners. Like, she's that type of athlete, and I can't wait for the world to see. And so believe it or not, 2:24, which is like 5:30 pace that is so fast, is not fully clicking for her. Like, there's so much that I learned and, you know, as a coach that I think I can be better with in the next build that just make it so she's going to the moon. And for her to have Brooks teammate Jess Jess McLean as her mentor is the coolest thing. And so my big Amanda reflection actually was talking to her at the finish. And, you know, obviously, there's mixed feelings in this race when you don't fully achieve the thing that, you know, you're. You have within you, you know, and seeing her process in real time, it reminded me so much of Ana Gibson at the Olympic trials on the track, where I was doing a cooldown with Ana, and, you know, she had. She wasn't going to be qualifying for, you know, the Olympics, obviously, and that's always a disappointing experience. And by the end of that cooldown, and she's like, I can't wait to be back. And you felt the same energy from Mint. I can't wait for the next one, in the next opportunity, in the next training walk. Like, she loves the process so much. And I think that there's something that separates these high performers because you have to go through so much of the muck to reach the Jess glory, you know, that you eventually are just like, I fucking love the muck. And seeing her have big dreams right next to this, you know, big ability to take it all in was one of the more inspiring things I've ever seen.

Megan (19:19)

And I think part of that for me, too, was seeing the level. And this was like, actually across Boston in general. I feel like my whole personality. This is your Strava title, and I agree a hundred percent, is that my whole personality now for this week is the Boston Marathon.

David (19:30)

Oh, my God.

Megan (19:30)

Yeah. And I feel like there's something about stepping into the marathon Monday that it's actually very hard to explain until you've been there, but just how much the community piece and family piece and friends piece and just rallying all of the support surrounding the race. And I felt that with Amanda, too. Like, her dad has been there for her alongside. He does almost every training run with her on the bike. And to see him there at the race, and her boyfriend, too. And just, like, you know, that community that she has showing up for her was emblematic of all the Boston runners out there. And it's like, I just wanted to sit at every single dinner table of, like, the families having dinner before Boston. And it was just like, that vibe of supporting athletes and being there for the whole journey. I was like, this is what the race is all about.

David (20:09)

Oh, my God. I just love running so much after this.

Megan (20:11)

Right. It was so uplifting. I was like, why am I high on this? Is this at Dunkin Donuts or is it me?

David (20:17)

It might be. It might be.

Megan (20:19)

Yeah.

David (20:19)

Um, and interestingly, on the carb note, one thing that we noticed is Solvang Lobseth won Ironman, Texas, and she took in the most we've seen for a female athlete. So we were debating about this. Where are the really high numbers for female athletes? And I think that they're getting pushed higher and higher all the time. So Solvang took in 132 grams of carbs per hour, 1.1 liters of fluid per hour, and over a thousand milligrams of sodium in that per hour. And so that's remarkable. She is really pushing the limits, and that's what we're starting to see in Boston. Like, there was actually a little back and forth on Twitter. Did you see this over my shoulder on the plane?

Megan (20:55)

Oh, I didn't.

David (20:56)

Okay. Well, it's a Tim Noakes thing, as you can imagine.

Megan (20:59)

Oh, I saw you, actually. There was a reply button to. And I was like. I kind of got anxiety looking over being like, what is David?

David (21:05)

I did click reply.

Megan (21:06)

Did you. Did you type something and then not.

David (21:08)

No, no, no, no. I. I didn't type anything, but I clicked reply and then realized, why would I do that?

Megan (21:12)

Yeah, I saw you were just looking at the blank screen of, like, the rep message, and I was like, is he going to do it?

David (21:19)

Okay. Okay. That was me. The problem is there's this dichotomy of David where I realize that I do not want to participate in any negative, like, thoughts on the Internet. It's just not helpful for anybody. I want to lift everyone up and make sure people know they're loved. Right.

Megan (21:33)

But you have to contemplate them first.

David (21:34)

But the dichotomy of David is sometimes when I feel really good, like, Good about the world and probably about yourself.

Megan (21:42)

You're, like, a little bit better.

David (21:43)

About myself in that moment, he's like, my baseline might be a little bit more to, like, love other people and love myself a little bit less. Right. And so in that one moment after flying so high at Boston, I was like, Tim Noakes said that John Career, who won in an astonishing time for men. And it's just a beast. It was dominant from just watching the tv. Tim Noakes when said, I didn't see him taking in any carbs. I wanted to be like. I wanted to respond because I was feeling good. And then I was like, no, I don't want to be that guy. I want to just let everyone have their opinions and celebrate everyone. I'm. I'm happy. But just know that everybody out there is doing high carb now. Like, every one of those bottles that they're grabbing. Every 5k has some amount of carbs in it, whether it's a gel or in the mix itself. And it's. It's the thing that is allowing this push because, like, training theory hasn't changed that much. Like, seeing what Jess does, I feel like we haven't written that much on it. I don't think I'm going to, because it's. I don't know. I don't know if it's appropriate, perhaps.

Megan (22:44)

Actually part of. I would just say that, like, she does lower volume.

David (22:47)

Lower volume.

Megan (22:48)

Yeah. And that, to me, is really inspiring because, like, you know, she takes a rest day every single Monday or the most Mondays. But, I mean, you know, sometimes things get like.

David (22:56)

Sometimes there's a Boston Marathon on Monday.

Megan (22:57)

Yeah, exactly. The Boston Marathon is wrecking rest day Monday.

David (23:00)

Yeah.

Megan (23:01)

But to me, that's really inspiring. And seeing an athlete that commits to that and commits to. I mean, lower volume just works for her. And I don't.

David (23:08)

At most, two workouts in a week. Yeah, sometimes one.

Megan (23:11)

What do you think? Most volume per week?

David (23:14)

We're this. So we're gonna talk in a second. As about the training study, uh, the one change we made this year is we added just some shakeouts in the pm, some slightly longer singles, uh, maybe a little bit more long run. But no longer on. Was going over 20 miles. You know, we weren't doing the huge ones that you sometimes see. Um, it. It just points out that once you stack the bricks, it's not about accumulating as much work as you can. It's adapting to the work you're doing. And that's the place where Jess thrives. That I wish every young athlete could understand is that Jess is adapting better to each session than anybody else. Not because she rests all day, she doesn't. She works a full time job like she's, you know, crushing it out there, even though she doesn't have to be anymore financially, especially after this Boston. But she's taking carbs all the time. She's treating her body well. She's also enjoying life, which is a place where she thrives. And so it's so much more about adapting to work than accumulating stress, I think.

Megan (24:09)

Okay, that was an incredible lawyer answer. I was like, give me a number. And you're like, and here's the vibe. And I understand because Jess is so high profile that you say that and that gets plastered everywhere.

David (24:18)

I don't want to give the sound bites. We don't need them clips.

Megan (24:21)

Jess gets the Boston American record off of blank miles per week.

David (24:25)

The only people, like I don't want people coming in and taking my sound bites away. Yeah, probably there already are some on this one. Yeah. I mean it's like I said, I want to sell these GPS files to let's run. But on the flip side, like different athletes do different things. And so let's talk about the race more generally here. John career won for men. Astonishing time. His second win in a row. Sharon located one for women. Her second win in a row.

Megan (24:49)

Dominant again.

David (24:50)

Dominant. And so you know, both just put on absolute clinics and it is pretty darn shocking. It's like, you know, coaching athletes that are competing. Someone like Sharon, let's say I was looking at her splits in the last six miles.

Megan (25:04)

Oh my goodness.

David (25:05)

She ran a 1448 5K at the end of the Boston. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan (25:11)

Mic drop.

David (25:11)

But what are we supposed to do? It's like I'll try to think of some things. Training theory, maybe do a few more, I don't know, strides. But you know what the answer is?

Megan (25:20)

What?

David (25:21)

Burgers.

Megan (25:21)

Yeah.

David (25:22)

And being called a by somebody at Dunkin Donuts apparently perfect. But just so remarkable that what the sport has become because the athletes are able to do it at the end. Same with John career. I don't know what his 5k was, but it was definitely sub 14 and they were absolutely flying. And then the whole race just went so fast. The Americans crushed on both sides.

Megan (25:40)

The depth of the American field on both sides. I was so excited about Charlie Hicks, like Stanford grad, seeing him come young athlete. He was my pick. I was like, he's going to excel

David (25:48)

here and he has an amazing Instagram.

Megan (25:51)

Oh, I didn't know that I should follow him.

David (25:53)

Yeah, it's so funny. He's hilarious. Clearly smart as hell. Like, I don't know him personally at all, but he posts very, very funny memes. He's kind of who I aspire to be.

Megan (26:02)

Ye.

David (26:03)

Um, yeah. Who else we got? I mean, Emily Sisson crushed it. Annie Frisbee went so fast.

Megan (26:08)

Carrie Elwood.

David (26:09)

Carrie Elwood, basically across the board. It was so impressive. And then on the men's side, it was just like a who's who. Clayton Young.

Megan (26:15)

Clayton Young, coming back a nine week build after injury, signed with Brooks, came back, did this. He was actually. We got to go after to like, the athlete recovery area. And he was like, literally five feet from me. I resisted the urge to be like, I'm a fan girl.

David (26:29)

Yeah. Okay. And maybe that brings us to Boston. Thoughts overall, Just about the city, the experience, all of that. First is fangirling. That was my name of the game. So we land on the plane on Saturday and Megan's like, oh, David, I think I saw Stephanie Bruce. And I've never met Stephanie, though, You know, I know she's amazing. And I run back into the airport.

Megan (26:49)

You backtracked. Like, Jess backtracked for her bottle. So you were like, I am gonna go find Steph Bruce and tell her I'm a fan. You did not. I actually don't know if that was Steph Bruce. I was pretty convinced, but then I found out that Steph Bruce was leading a shakeout. And I was like, I don't know if the timing lines up.

David (27:03)

Oh, maybe she's like Hermione.

Megan (27:04)

I know, right?

David (27:05)

Book three of Harry Potter, which I just read to Leo.

Megan (27:08)

Look at that reference.

David (27:09)

Look at that reference. That's a deep cut. That's how you know we're business over here. We're so cool. Yeah. And so that showed how I viewed it. And it was so cool then to have people come up to us and say hi because I was just.

Megan (27:21)

We were doing the same thing. We were running in the Charles. We saw Kim Conley.

David (27:25)

Oh, that was fun.

Megan (27:26)

That was fun. We saw so many people.

David (27:27)

Yeah, so many people. And. And also saw Corey, the therapy dog.

Megan (27:32)

Oh, my goodness.

David (27:32)

That they have at the Athlete Hotel. That was pretty special.

Megan (27:35)

That was a famous dog.

David (27:37)

Famous dog date trip. That was really cool.

Megan (27:40)

Oh, my gosh, that was so fun. We haven't done a trip that has been like, you know, we've done solo trips involving racing, but we're like, there. We're in and out. We're preparing for our own races. This was fun.

David (27:50)

It was.

Megan (27:50)

So we went to bed late, and I feel like part of us was like, oh, it's east coast time. But I feel like 12:30am East coast time is still quite late. Mountain time.

David (28:00)

Didn't get out of bed till 10.

Megan (28:01)

How wonderful was that?

David (28:02)

Oh, my goodness.

Megan (28:03)

You brought me Dunkin Donuts in bed. And I was like, we have reached true existence.

David (28:07)

It was so hard to leave the kids, especially Gleeo. And then at the end, I'm like, okay, maybe we do that a little more often.

Megan (28:13)

It was wonderful. We watched the Noah Khan documentary in bed, and I feel like that was great from a Boston vibe and seeing how he prepares for nerves and how much of a real human he is, I just felt like a lot of that translated to athletic culture and how we think about being athletes.

David (28:29)

It was so special too, because in that documentary, go watch it on Netflix, he talks about his body dysmorphia a lot. And it is very unique to open up about that as a man. And, you know, I feels like a warm hug in some ways to just know that everybody's going through it in one way or another. And one of the reasons things like Boston feel so meaningful is, yes, we celebrate these stories, but behind every one of those stories is a whole host of things like that that you can't see. Like, everyone sees Noah at Fenway park, you know, performing his songs about how terrible New England actually is. But people act like it's a good thing.

Megan (29:06)

Yeah, Stockholm Syndrome.

David (29:07)

The Stockholm syndrome of New England. That's the main thing I've learned, is there's a little bit of Stockholm syndrome going on and some self gaslighting. Noah Kahn's songs are like, the sun never comes out. I've never had vitamin D in my life. But you know what? Good for us guys. Try California. You might like it. But, you know, behind that is so much difficulty in the same way there is for every athlete. And it's just so special to see. Also, we had our first seafood tower. That was with Jess's family at the dinner two nights before. And I really loved it. It was transformatively good.

Megan (29:40)

Okay, wait, we should play Mary Fuck Hill with oysters.

David (29:44)

Oysters.

Megan (29:45)

This is what you primarily had on the seafood tower. Oysters, lobster, and shrimp.

David (29:50)

Okay, Shrimp. I mean, shrimp is everything. Good. That was so good. It was so good.

Megan (29:54)

I think I'd marry shrimp.

David (29:55)

Mary. Shrimp. Oh, so you gotta fuck one. Lobster or oyster?

Megan (29:59)

Yeah. You're like, those are two bad options. Megan. Yeah.

David (30:02)

I mean, okay, this is on the plus side. On the plus side, oyster basically already is covered in lubricant, so that seems

Megan (30:09)

you're just swallowing and not doing anything. Try to get that. Get that done.

David (30:14)

But that brings us to the hot take, which is. This was my first ever experience with lobster, and I don't know. I think it's overrated. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Someone's gonna, like, really hate me out there. But then I looked it up, and in the 19th century, from the 17th to the 19th centuries, lobster was known as the cockroach of the sea.

Megan (30:31)

We called it the rat of the sea. On the way home, did you refine it to cockroach?

David (30:35)

That. I'm using someone else's language with cockroach, which. I'll stick with that. As a roach, I can say this. This is my culture.

Megan (30:41)

Yeah, this is my culture. This is your lineage.

David (30:44)

And, yeah, it wasn't as good as everything else. I know that. That sucks to say. And then, obviously, oyster tastes like river, and I don't understand it.

Megan (30:52)

You're like, this is where I grew up.

David (30:54)

Yeah, I grew up on a river. I grew up on a river, the Chester river in Maryland coming off the Chesapeake Bay, and it tastes just like the mud.

Megan (31:00)

Have you never had an oyster?

David (31:01)

I never have. I've tried fried oyster.

Megan (31:03)

Oh, that's. I mean, anything fried.

David (31:05)

Anything. It really points out. Give me a fried tire, and I'm all about it.

Megan (31:09)

Okay, so we had lobster rolls. I loved. Lobster is just a conduit for butter

David (31:13)

in that I respect.

Megan (31:14)

And the butter was delicious. And then it was on a roll that was buttered, too, and it was great.

David (31:19)

But that's like the fried food theorem.

Megan (31:21)

That's.

David (31:21)

I mean, that's applied to butter, which is awesome. And I. I support that. Obviously, butter is one of our main food groups, but still.

Megan (31:27)

Okay, so give me a ranking on a lobster roll out of 10.

David (31:31)

I. I mean, come on. I. Megan, I don't give numbers. Remember our mileage discussion?

Megan (31:35)

You're like, this can't be on. Let's run. I know my lobster ranking.

David (31:39)

God. My Lord. Yeah, that's. That's so funny. I. I did resist the urge to look at. Let's turn. So that gets back to the dichotomy of David, where, you know, there's a David that feels pretty good about him, so. Oh, maybe I'll check this, because, you know, there are some interesting things on that godforsaken website.

Megan (31:56)

Do not check.

David (31:57)

Yeah, and then I'm like, no, no. Because I feel good right now, and I will feel bad about everyone and the universe. It's the anti Boston Marathon to be out there.

Megan (32:04)

Well, it's the one comment principle. Like, there can be a hundred amazing comments, and then there's that one where you're like, now I'm gonna feel shitty about myself the rest of the day.

David (32:11)

What if there's 400 pages negative comments?

Megan (32:13)

What do you think about that?

David (32:15)

How does that work with your one comment principle? Does it eventually cancel out?

Megan (32:18)

I feel like I need Noah Kahontani desk for that.

David (32:20)

That was good, John.

Megan (32:21)

My source. That was great. We watched that this morning.

David (32:23)

Noah Con Tiny desktop concert on NPR.

Megan (32:25)

Actually, his new album is coming out on the 24th, and I am kind of unreasonably excited for it.

David (32:30)

Oh, my goodness. Best week of all time.

Megan (32:32)

Yeah. How was this week? So good.

David (32:34)

Overlapping with the Boston Marathon. Maybe that's another reflection. I love Boston. The city. I never thought I would say that about any city. I hated New York City when I lived there, though. I respect it.

Megan (32:44)

What feels different to you about Boston compared to New York?

David (32:47)

I don't know. It's tough to put your finger on it, Right. Maybe it's the smaller the steam coming out of the ground.

Megan (32:52)

There is so much steam coming out on your toes. Okay. It's a little bit concerning. And then it got quite cold, and I was like, that actually looks incredible.

David (32:58)

Yeah, it looks great.

Megan (32:59)

Yeah.

David (32:59)

Yeah. I kind of want to be a boiled hot dog right now.

Megan (33:02)

It's like the steam coming out of, like, the man covers in the ground. It is so weird when it just starts. Starts coming up and you're like, why is this happening?

David (33:07)

I always said that it's just so weird when it starts coming up

Megan (33:12)

this weekend.

David (33:12)

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what that means exactly, but we're moving through it, though. I have heard oysters are a aphrodisiac or whatever.

Megan (33:19)

Oh, really?

David (33:20)

Historically, I didn't know that. So interesting. So it gets back to the lubricant idea. Okay. The other controversy, though, I hate to point out controversies about, like, what was a beautiful event is Nike had signs up, apparently, that said. Did you even read what it said?

Megan (33:33)

It said, runners welcome, walkers tolerated. I think.

David (33:37)

And we got sent it up by a lot of listeners who wanted our take on it. And our take on it is the dumbest, dumbest shit.

Megan (33:43)

I'm so confused. Why? How did they do that?

David (33:46)

How does Nike always do this?

Megan (33:47)

I mean, are they sitting around a board table and just being like, this is a good idea. I'm just, I'm confused because someone is like, this is it. I'm sure someone in a 15 person boardroom is like, this is a terrible idea. How does it get through?

David (33:59)

It makes me worry about culture. And I hate to say this because I love almost every. Everyone I actually know at Nike. Lucy that heads their trail team is a fucking boss.

Megan (34:08)

Well, I mean, clearly the trail team is out there power hiking. So, like, it's a different culture, different context.

David (34:13)

Maybe, but Julie Leisure, who, who's there and is one of the best humans I've ever met. But when this type of sign gets approved and is in multiple places, it makes you think. Well, maybe people aren't comfortable speaking up because that's.

Megan (34:26)

That's true. Yeah.

David (34:27)

You know, all, all ideas are good in a brainstorm, right? No bad ideas. Uh, it's okay to have ideas. Like, you know, we say things on the podcast that we wouldn't repeat if we didn't. Couldn't go back in time. If we could go back in time. Um, but that's different, right? When you have time to make a sign, it is not one person having an idea that they just don't see the context of. This goes through dozens of people, you assume, or at least 10. Um, one of those people thought it was bad, as you said. And were they not comfortable speaking up or were they ignored? Either way, bad thing.

Megan (34:57)

It is so weird. I loved. And then there was a bunch of brands just dunking on them all weekend.

David (35:00)

That's pretty funny when the brands dunk on the brands.

Megan (35:02)

Yeah. Oh, it's pretty great. Also, it's kind of fun when people dunk on Nike. I. I personally enjoy that.

David (35:07)

Well, what shoes are you wearing right now?

Megan (35:09)

God damn.

David (35:09)

I'm wearing the Ultrafly 2, the Nike Ultra Fi too. So good job dunking.

Megan (35:12)

Well, I lost. I actually don't know where my shoes went. This is so weird. I have a pair of pink saucony endorphins and I have no idea where they went. To the point that I brought like the deadest of dead shoes me to Boston. And I was running on the Charles river just like, I have no pop in my shoes. But this morning I put on the Ultrafly twos. Cause I was like, I just need a shoe that's not dead. And you know what? I fucking love it.

David (35:32)

Yeah, you do. I mean, I didn't.

Megan (35:33)

I haven't run on it on technical trails yet. And the stack height is a little higher, so it concerns me a bit for like Splatting my ankles, but feels

David (35:40)

pretty stable and wide.

Megan (35:41)

It does. Yeah. It felt fast.

David (35:43)

Yeah.

Megan (35:43)

In fact, I ran, like, a little too fast in my run this morning, so I was like, I got some pop.

David (35:47)

Yeah, so we'll see. That being said, Nike, come on.

Megan (35:51)

Come on.

David (35:52)

We try all the time. I'm like, you know, companies, we should give them incentives to be better. And Nike's trying, like, I try so hard to see the best, and then they do something like this every year. Why? What are you doing?

Megan (36:05)

Also in conjunction with the Boston Marathon, which, like, is like, you know, in some sense, like, the qualification standards are sometimes frustrating just from, like, an inclusion perspective. And you're just like, why?

David (36:14)

But also, the Boston Marathon, when you're actually there is so loving.

Megan (36:17)

Oh, my gosh. It's the best one.

David (36:18)

And, yeah, look, if you're out there and you can't qualify for the Boston Marathon, it's okay to just go and experience it. Like, it's worth it, actually, in some

Megan (36:26)

ways, that might be more fun.

David (36:27)

Yeah.

Megan (36:27)

We had so much fun.

David (36:29)

Like, it was the best.

Megan (36:30)

The best weekend of our lives, and we didn't even race, actually. It was great because we were just staying up late and sleeping in late and drinking coffee and eating lobster rolls and just being like, well, we don't have to run a marathon.

David (36:41)

Yeah. Oh, so fun. So I think it's about it. The. The big moral of the story here is like, God, Jess McLean's the coolest athlete I've ever seen. And it's just so fun to be a fly on the wall of her journey and can't wait to see what she does next. When you have a moment like this, it makes a life. It makes as a runner. But also, what I texted her the night before was just to reflect on that. We'd give anything to go back in time in 25 years and be in this moment, the moment before the race. I think so many athletes, and I know I. Part of me is like, oh, man, I just want this to happen. And then you have to recontextualize that to be like, oh, yes, while I'm not sleeping. You know, I'm stressed. I'm unsure. There's a lot of pressure in Jess's situation. I mean, it is so much pressure to actually be there and see what she's under. Like, you know, I thought we get recognized. We get nothing compared to Jess at the Boston Marathon. Oh, my God. And the way, you know, she responded and, like, it's just remarkable. You know something I'll Remember for the rest of my life and be inspired by. And so, yeah, just can't wait. I mean, both her and Amanda, they're going to places that boggle the mind and it's wildly exciting.

Megan (37:52)

Okay, my final takeaway on this, and you're going to hate me for this comment, is, David, I'm just so fucking proud of you. I mean, so you coach Jess and Amanda and it's just to think about you as a coach. Like, who the heck coaches western states winners and schema Olympians and top Americans at Boston? Like, that is a level obviously, like physiology is physiology. Like we're talking endurance training. There are elements of endurance training. Power, a power that apply to everything. But there's a lot of specificity within those events and we could actually add, like, you've coached great cyclists do. And I'm like, what the heck would happen if we gave you a cycling team? Like, what could you do with that? That would be really fun, especially a woman's team. Like, I think you're great in particular with women's physiology. That sounds, sounds really creepy. No, that sounds terrible. Actually.

David (38:37)

That's something we would go back in time and change.

Megan (38:38)

I retract that statement, but you know what I mean? And I think it's because like of the approach that you have, which is going for it, but also prioritizing rest and recovery and carbs, which are extra important for female athletes. But it is just so cool. David, how do you do that? And not only how do you do that, how do you have the confidence to do that? Because like in some ways it's like, you know, when, you know, I think it was Ali Ostrander who was the first road and track athlete to reach out to you. And it led to this influx of Amanda and Jess and so many other like Rachel Rudell who's here on the Colorado scene, crushing and Allen, Kristen Allen. And I just like, how did you evolve the confidence to go from trails and ultras, which was like kind of our niche coaching, to now break into top level elite training, which is so different.

David (39:24)

Yeah. Megan, that's so, so nice of you.

Megan (39:26)

I mean now you're, now you're, now you're crying.

David (39:30)

You know, this is our lives, right? And you know, I've reflected on that a lot recently, long before this, right? Like that the athletic journey is not winding down, but you know, I can see the sunset on the horizon. Not of, you know, obviously I'm going to train forever, but of that being serious. And it's like the thing that defines My life. Life in the professional sense is coaching. It's what I care about so much. And every coach gets that, right? Like, every teacher gets that. It's the same thing. Like, it's something that goes beyond what I do to who I am. You know, like, on my tombstone, I wanted to say Coach Roach. You know, maybe Coach Roach said about lobsters that you can't take back.

Megan (40:11)

Coach Roach really knows female athlete physiology.

David (40:15)

Hey, when I am seeing athletes in person, I go in for the high five.

Megan (40:20)

I actually love this about you is, like, you have really good. I mean, you're obviously coaching all these female athletes. And, you know, for me, actually, it's been an evolution for me as an athlete is. I think back 10 years ago, 12 years ago, when we first started coaching, I was like, wait, you're gonna coach my competition and you're gonna make them all faster than me? And I feel like I've actually evolved as an athlete to be like, I'm like, your wing woman. I'm like, david, I want you to coach. We've had many conversations this weekends of athletes that I want you.

David (40:49)

Megan, apparently sliding into DMs as we speak.

Megan (40:51)

I'm like, I want you to coach this athlete and this athlete. And I think part of that has been an evolution for me of just, like, I identify more as a coach, too, and we're in this together as a team. But I also really fundamentally trust you with how you coach. Like, it's a power position to be a coach. And the way that you handle that, of just being like, we're gonna hop off instead of going in, like, always for that hug. And just, like, how you communicate with athletes, like, like, really means a ton.

David (41:15)

Well, I mean, thank you. Yeah. It's because, you know, the way you talked right there made it obvious what the actual answer is, right? That how can you do this? You told. You told me from the beginning, you

Megan (41:32)

know, I was like, well, maybe not the beginning. In the beginning, at first, I was skeptical. I was like, you're gonna make everyone so fast, and I'm gonna get beat.

David (41:37)

Yeah. But at every step of the way, where there were decision points, you know, where there were crossroads where an athlete reached out that was like, what the heck? Or an athlete where you just see that potential, even if it hasn't fully shined yet. And I always tell you about it first, you know, and I tell you my insecurities and, like, all that. It's not like I'm like, oh, I'm the guy for this job, you know, and every time, it's like, you're like, david, this is. You're the best coach I've ever seen. And just wait till you get this opportunity and go for it. And so, you know, thank you. And that was so obvious this weekend. You know, like. Like, in every conversation we had with Amanda and Jess, every time we spent together, you were there. And, you know, adding. Adding it in. And, you know, at every step in the process of training, you're there. And, you know, without you, I'd be. I'd be coaching, but I. I'd be coaching in a totally different way. You know, I. Even on trails, it would just be different. It wouldn't be the same. The same stuff with these types of athletes because, like, this is a different scale, right? Like, being in Boston, this is a life that you're a huge part of, like, professionally, like, their. Their financial future, you know, that goes beyond. And it is pressure in a coaching perspective, too. And you give me the ability to look past the fact that, like, I see all the flaws in myself and you see all the, like, you know, all the things you say, you know, I don't want to say what they are, but, like. And that's what makes it possible. And so, yeah, basically, you're my wing woman in life. And it's being there at Boston with you and seeing Jess cross the finish line with you, that'll be the thing I always remember.

Megan (43:14)

It was so fun. We had some moments just floating together, running together along the Charles of seeing all these people out there and getting to shut. Plus, it was so oxygenated, it was floating without doing anything. I was like, man, we haven't been at sea level in a long time, and it was fun to just, like, share those miles with you. Sometimes it's like, I feel like sometimes the best running partners are ones where, like, you just share the miles in silence. And, like, a lot is said, like, you know, we saw weeping willows, and we, like, just, like, the most beautiful east coast thing. And, like, we would comment that, like, look at that weeping willow.

David (43:42)

We're, like, so pissed in the middle of the Charles river path. Yeah.

Megan (43:44)

How are you supposed to piss in the city?

David (43:45)

Well, we both did.

Megan (43:46)

I know. I know it was complicated, but, like, I felt really bad about that. Yeah.

David (43:49)

I mean, come on. Cities are made for pissing.

Megan (43:53)

I'm like, what am I supposed to do?

David (43:54)

Whatever they say in Boston, wicked. Piss up.

Megan (43:55)

Yeah.

David (43:56)

I think that's what they say.

Megan (43:57)

That's what we were doing. But it was just, like, to have that, like, Time floating with you quietly and then have, like, you know, so many flybys. It was actually there were so many people out running that I felt like, David, you were like, I just can't say hello and good job to everyone.

David (44:09)

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a little tough. So what do you think about a Boulder based? Like, not. Not necessarily just Boulder based, but athletes can come and go, like, if they're training other places.

Megan (44:20)

Like a Boulder hub for fast track, road trail athletes.

David (44:24)

Yeah. What do you think?

Megan (44:25)

I love it.

David (44:26)

What should we call the team?

Megan (44:27)

I was just gonna say it needs a name.

David (44:28)

It needs a name.

Megan (44:29)

It needs a name. Let me think about that.

David (44:30)

Let's think.

Megan (44:31)

You know, it might not need a dinosaur.

David (44:33)

What?

Megan (44:34)

You're like. You're like.

David (44:36)

The problem is you already took his a. I feel like we can make it a branch of his eye, like an extension of his eye, and have it be a female athlete team.

Megan (44:42)

That could be really cool. Okay, let me simmer. Let me simmer on it. Let me center on it. Let me send Marana.

David (44:46)

So, no, I mean, we're just. Just so hyped on the entire running world right now. And so thank you all for believing in us too. You know, like, it's been a journey. When this podcast started, like, we had a lot of theories, but not so much of, like, putting them into practice in this specific way. It's like Schemo now. You know, road running at this level, track at this level, it's just really, really fun. And so much of that comes from the stories we tell, the science we talk about on the podcast. So do you want to get to some more science?

Megan (45:13)

Let's do it. But first, I would love to run. This is a little bit of scientific thing, an experiment, and give you a year to coach a cycling team and just see what happens. How cool would that be to take, like, I think, like, cycling physiology, because there's, like, more limited variables compared to, like, trail ultra running or even, like, marathoning. Like, power is power. And yes, you may not know how to descend very well on a bike, but I feel like I was about

David (45:38)

to say everyone will have hopefully good power numbers, but they'll be at the bottom of the first ravine. The very first ravine. Sorry, team.

Megan (45:45)

That's why you hire advisors.

David (45:48)

That's why you get big old pads, place them in every ravine this side of Girona, Spain.

Megan (45:54)

You can phone two friends to be on your cycle as advisors, and they can do the mechanical coaching.

David (45:59)

I believe on last week's episode, you did say that Your retirement plan was putting me on a bike in unfamiliar cities.

Megan (46:04)

Yeah. It seems like a great one. Yeah, it should have really. I mean, we actually. It was very. You know, when you have an athlete running a 220 marathon, it's very hard to go spectate in a course like Boston and then get to the finish. And so we actually couldn't make it to like halfway and get back. But we could have if we tried the bike theory.

David (46:21)

We could have. If you got launched by a bus. Yeah.

Megan (46:26)

Actually, that's the thing about Boston. Everyone's honking all the time.

David (46:28)

There's a lot of honking.

Megan (46:29)

Yeah.

David (46:30)

People move before the light turns green.

Megan (46:32)

I don't know. Now you're going through the crosswalks. Like right when the man turns two, like, it's like two seconds left. I'm like, david, you are gonna get trucked.

David (46:39)

I am thinking about our children's college fund. This is how we do it. And State Farm. Don't listen to this podcast episode.

Megan (46:47)

I mean, like at Boulder, you can basically walk. When it turns zero in Boston, you are going to get trapped.

David (46:52)

Megan. My athletes get big paychecks. I do not from their performances. Especially a good thing. There's a conversation that I think it's not for us, but I don't think coaches should be getting money or bonuses for athlete performances. I think that's a bad thing. And sometimes that becomes an issue with coach agent relationships where. Agreed.

Megan (47:11)

Yes.

David (47:11)

You know, so I think it's okay for a coach to advocate for that athlete, but not to financially benefit from that advocacy in a substantial way beyond what you would from a normal athlete. Like, I usually don't even charge pros for that reason, but I think it introduces weird incentive structures at the top end of the sport that make you super skeptical across the board of things in a way that we don't need. I think there should be some more regulation in that regard. But what do I know?

Megan (47:34)

Agree. There actually is so much regulation in running. Like, you know, thinking about like sponsorships and like all the different things, it's like, why is there not with that?

David (47:41)

Yeah, maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I think as soon as you start to tie success in that manner to performance, sometimes people can take paths of bad character almost insidiously. I imagine if we took people like Alberto Salazar, it didn't start as evil, it became evil. Though maybe that's totally wrong. But then again, maybe that's everyone. Darth Vader didn't start as evil. So what the fuck Do I know. Let's move on. I don't know anything. Um, and so we're gonna talk about the cycling volume study because we are already 50 minutes into this podcast.

Megan (48:17)

That was so fun.

David (48:18)

Needs to get out soon.

Megan (48:19)

Megan, I know it's Tuesday. We're under pressure, and you had to go run. I did.

David (48:23)

And you kept going. I was tracking your dot.

Megan (48:25)

I know. I was like, david's gonna see my dot, and he's gonna realize I'm four miles from home.

David (48:28)

And then you're gonna go do the little strides.

Megan (48:30)

I had so much inspiration from Boston. I get it. I couldn't help it.

David (48:34)

I get it.

Megan (48:35)

Yeah.

David (48:35)

Meanwhile, Leo, the entire time, was like, where's mama?

Megan (48:38)

I know. Well, it's. I. You know, we only travel from Saturday to Monday, and we lived a lot of life in that time. But then we came back, and Leo is just, like, so attached to me. I cannot leave the house.

David (48:49)

He loves you so much. He has great taste. I said that a million times.

Megan (48:53)

It was actually really hard to be gone from him. And now that I'm back, he's like, don't ever leave.

David (48:57)

It was really hard to be gone from him. Megan, did you. How much did you think about him yesterday before we got to the airport fair?

Megan (49:02)

But you know what? We were. It was busy, okay? One of the busiest days of our lives.

David (49:06)

It was hard. It was definitely hard.

Megan (49:08)

Every video, my mom. Thank you, Nana, for watching this. The boys, while we were gone. Every video that she sent, I watched, like, 12 different times. I was on the airplane just watching the same one over and over again.

David (49:17)

They're in a bath. Leo has his coat on. Leo has his shoes off, just smiling the whole time. What are we doing wrong?

Megan (49:25)

I. That's the thing.

David (49:26)

You're like. You're. You're telling me I can coach a cycling team. I can't get my kid to take off his jacket when it's 85 degrees outside.

Megan (49:31)

Actually, that's the problem. He's got soccer practice tomorrow night, and it's supposed to be 82. And I'm like, we have to get his jacket off. He's just committed to heat training.

David (49:38)

I love it. Though I did read a study that that heat exposure as a very young child increases the amount of sweat glands in the skin for the rest of your life. And so very high sweat rates can sometimes be associated with growing up in hot temperatures with a lot of sweat.

Megan (49:53)

Great. So we're just ruining him now.

David (49:55)

Yeah. I mean, honestly, Megan, I gotta be careful about how I'm Parroting studies here because that. Honestly, that could be from an Instagram post. Let's get to a real study before we do that. Quick promo for patreon. Go to patreon.com swap s p starts at $5 a month. If you can't get in, we'll let you in at $10 a month. You get heart rate zone calculations if you send in a hard workout. Most significantly, tons of training plans there for every distance, including an advanced road marathon training plan where we probably got 30 emails after Boston of people setting 10 plus minute PRs. Maybe not 10 plus, but PRs. A number of them were 10 plus minutes using that plan. It's largely modeled after the types of things Jess does. And coming up, we're going to release another marathon plan. That's the simple marathon plan that is based on. All right, let's strip training down to its core elements, which is how we actually try to train pro athletes most of the time and show you this is how it works and see if this works for you.

Megan (50:54)

Well, it's kind of wild walking around Boston and having just so many people come up to us and be like, I just ran Boston Marathon off of, you know, the Patreon marathon training plan. And that to me was wild. And then they'd be like, and I ran a 2:25. Yeah. I'm like, what the.

David (51:08)

Like, get a coach. It's better than that plan. I'm sorry. It's okay. If you don't sign up for Patreon, I don't know what I'm doing.

Megan (51:14)

The number of people that told us the ran two 25s. I'm just like, what is happening right now?

David (51:18)

The sport, it's carbs. You know, I mean, what I thought was interesting was not the people that know us like that, because even though the podcast is big for running, it's not huge. Right? Like, what was interesting to me is the number of people that said, oh, you're the carb guy and are not podcast listeners. Sometimes they were. Some of them had read the emails from the feedback read. And they had read our emails.

Megan (51:35)

Actually, it's really funny where people know us from, which is a variety of places. There was someone, we were running on the Charles river. Someone was like, Dr. Roach. But they said it so clearly to you, as if you're supposed to answer, and you're just like, ah.

David (51:46)

And I was like, Megan's here too.

Megan (51:49)

He's a doctor in carbs.

David (51:51)

A Juris Doctor.

Megan (51:52)

Yeah.

David (51:53)

A jurist doctor in carbohydrates and rich roll was a number of people who just. That was their only exposure, that podcast. Um, but so many people after the race just coming up to us while we were walking through the athlete area saying, oh, I ran 2:38 or whatever and it was high carb. And it's very cool to see how much that has now infiltrated the entire performance space. And I think at, at Boston, it's a really good place to see it because almost every athlete there is trying to push to see what they're capable of. So they're going to find that obvious thing. And the cool thing with high carb is because it's immediately responsive. Like you'll notice the changes right away. Like scientifically, it gets extremely high adoption by everybody who tries it. So thus trying it is the gateway. Probably heroin in that way. Just need to do it once. Don't do that. I don't know what I'm saying. Whereas other interventions, like training interventions, are much longer to set in. So you're getting less of that data. It's more noise, less signal. So long story short, it was incredibly inspiring. So here's a couple messages. I jumped into running too soon after my first 100 miler in January and got a good taste of the dreaded it bands in syndrome. After trying to run through it for a 50 kilometer race, I blew up and couldn't even walk. I started your bike plan. So we have lots of plans on there like that and some extra swimming once I could leaning into my triathlon experience. Bloody hell. My power numbers, now that I feel properly blew up and I couldn't believe it. Just did my first proper run back of 25km and hit my half marathon per personal best in zone two. Zone three, heart rate. But the crazy thing is like my legs were at zone one. Effort for once was a heart rate that or for once that was a heart that couldn't keep. But it's like my power is doubled. So running is a power sport. Fueling lights the way. And sign up for our Patreon for lots more patreon.com swap actually, we did

Megan (53:32)

meet a lot of athletes, you know, post marathon who are following our training plans and we're like, this is the first time I've worked in structured cross training at like slightly higher intensities and more at power output and feeling like they felt like they translated really well. Like I, I think we at least had at least five or six athletes that were like, you know, I've started incorporating cycling more and I feel like

David (53:49)

it's translated what's A good time to say Jess McLean cross trained. There's the sound button. No, she doesn't.

Megan (53:54)

Yeah, I was like, I don't think she doesn't. It's like, what are you talking about?

David (53:57)

I mean, she has lots of, like, extras and has an amazing strength coach. Strength pt. Coach pt, who you know is instrumental in this process. Right. Like, absolutely incredible at what he does. Um, find his name and put it on the show notes. Um, but yeah, she's not biking. No. Maybe in the future. Get Jess on a bike.

Megan (54:16)

Send her up.

David (54:17)

Duez.

Megan (54:18)

Oh, my goodness.

David (54:18)

Ms. Jesse After. Actually, that's the thing. You crushed Boston so hard. You're just like, all right, mic drop. I'm out. I'm going to team Visa bike or whatever.

Megan (54:28)

Yeah, I'm gonna end up in that ravine. But you know what? We're gonna put real high watts out in the out.

David (54:32)

That should be an amazing bike handler too.

Megan (54:34)

She probably would be, actually. Yeah.

David (54:35)

Yeah. And people get directed off course all the time in cycling now.

Megan (54:38)

So actually we were walking around Boston and now. That just crushed Boston so hard.

David (54:43)

Oh, Megan, we can say this.

Megan (54:45)

There was a police car that was just got depressed.

David (54:47)

Boston. We just got to Boston.

Megan (54:48)

Why are there so. There's so many sirens in Boston.

David (54:51)

So many sirens.

Megan (54:52)

I forgot about this, about city life. It's like, how do you sleep when there's a siren going on all the time?

David (54:56)

It was crazy.

Megan (54:57)

In fact, we were like snuggling at one point and there was just siren after siren. I'm like, are they coming for us?

David (55:01)

Yeah, you were.

Megan (55:02)

Yeah, I was like, right outside our window and I was like, can they see us? Is this a problem?

David (55:08)

A fireman just comes up on a 15 story ladder.

Megan (55:10)

It's like, you guys good? Can I join you?

David (55:14)

Want some? Duncan, you bitch. But Megan sees this, like, cavalcade of sirens turn to the left and she's like, Jess is following them the wrong way. Go fuck yourself, Megan.

Megan (55:28)

No, I said that. I didn't say Jess was following them and said, they're leading Jess.

David (55:31)

Okay, okay.

Megan (55:31)

The wrong way. Get the facts straight.

David (55:34)

No, no.

Megan (55:35)

This is like the cockroach in Rat of the Sea. It's very different.

David (55:37)

And it was extremely funny. And especially now that she ran the fastest time we'll ever see. Yeah, yeah. Incredibly remarkable. Boston's incredible. Also, I'm worried that we didn't give all the athletes enough, you know, just dap in that conversation. But remember, we were just there for Jess and Amanda, so everything else was almost like we're hearing about it after the fact, just like you. So we were basically as preoccupied as people can be.

Megan (56:03)

Well, as always, when I go to these marathons and I see, like, I talked about this at the community perspective of just seeing families and friends and, like, everyone showing up, it's just like. Like, how much more this is than a time on the clock. And it's the full experience. And I feel like it's so cool to go to a marathon, whether it's Boston or whether it's some other marathon and have that experience of, like, the full experience of just enjoying everything around the race. And I just. I want to do that more within our own racing, of taking the chances and being like, we're going to bring our full family here and have a dinner and celebrate around this and enjoy the expo and the whole experience.

David (56:34)

More threesomes with fire people.

Megan (56:36)

Oh, we have. As long as they got Duncan.

David (56:40)

Oh, also Mason. Mason Copy won the citizens race, the Open race in 2:15. So fast off of Gorge training, Trail running training. He just won the Gorge 30K. So Mason, like, every shoe company out there. I know some shoe people listen to this. You have to sign Mason. Like, who does that? Like, he's so good and somehow he's still unsigned. And I don't understand, like, this is going to be the best trail runner we've ever seen. Eventually, like, the amount that he's progressed over time, he did this just chilling. Like, what is he gonna do in the future?

Megan (57:11)

In fact, I thought it was really cool because he was wearing a Hawaiian shirt at Gorge, and I was like, that's actually a great business and marketing move. I'm sure he just did it for vibes because, like, Mason is Mason and he's an artist and he does a lot of things and he's really cool. But I was like, in some ways, a signaling that you're, like, not sponsored is wearing a Hawaiian shirt. You're like, someone please sponsor me.

David (57:28)

He also designed the swap shirt and the swap hat. So the logo was designed by Abby Levine, who. Who did a beautiful job. Like, it's one of my favorite things in the world. And all of the gear was designed by Mason, and people love that stuff. So much so that we can't keep it in stock. So we're not doing it anymore because we just don't have the time.

Megan (57:44)

I actually found a random box of it in our basement the other day. Yeah, we have some shirts and things left.

David (57:48)

Thanks. What are we gonna do with that?

Megan (57:49)

Are we gonna get, like, a million emails now?

David (57:52)

But Mason's remarkable. And shoe companies. Please sign him. And also it shows that trail training should be very similar to being able to run a fast marathon. I mean, I think Mason would be able to go faster with specific training, but still, it's just bonkers. Okay, we're already at an hour. We gotta end this soon. Let's do this study.

Megan (58:07)

Can we do the ketone study too? I spent so long in the plane yesterday.

David (58:12)

We can do it tomorrow.

Megan (58:13)

Tomorrow?

David (58:13)

Tomorrow. Ish. Next week.

Megan (58:16)

Next week.

David (58:16)

Patreon.

Megan (58:17)

Okay, okay, okay. Let's do one study. It was actually wonderful. We had four hour flights each way and we were just hammering the work. I was like, I'm gonna read three books on this trip. And I read like 30 pages. We did a lot of work.

David (58:28)

But okay. So the cycling study is called internal and external load characteristics and professional female cycling cyclists during highly successful and less successful seasons. It took 43 different seasons for 14 World Tour cyclists from 2013 to 2017. That's my first little wrinkle there. 2013 to 2017 is before high, high carb. And anything before high carb you take with a grain of salt because are we even measuring quite the same physiology? Most likely we are. But high carb changes everything. Thus, you know, only take the conclusions to a certain point.

Megan (58:59)

Point. And I think it's more. I was gonna make this exact point and I think it's more relevant for female athletes too. Um, and I, I love that we're doing like. I feel like we have so many like studies done in male athletes looking at training that it's awesome to see more female athlete related studies especially in cycling where like training volumes can be higher.

David (59:14)

And this is so easy to do a study like this because we have power meter data, whereas in running it's really complicated as we're the study we're gonna talk about after this tried to do, um, and cycling, you just have power data. So if you can back back calculate their functional threshold power so they're like thresh their threshold, you can determine their power zones which aren't the same for everyone. Right. Like if you actually get in there, but they're close enough in a way that you really can for running. And so they classified all of their individual seasons as highly successful which meant five or more points per race based on pro cycling stats. It's kind of like an ultra sign up I'm assuming, versus less successful which meant less than 5 points per race. Felt like a little bit of an arbitrary designation.

Megan (59:53)

I was just about to say that this feels A little bit arbitrary, but at some point you have to create, like, you have to bend this in some way.

David (59:58)

I wish we binned it more.

Megan (59:59)

Yeah, that's the thing.

David (60:00)

Maybe it's not enough power statistically, but it's a little.

Megan (60:02)

Yeah, that's gonna say if you have so many bins and few athletes, like this is only 14 world trust cyclists. It becomes a little bit more challenging from a power perspective of the study.

David (60:10)

So I just would love to see what if we need different bins? Like, what if we made four points, six points? Would it change these numbers at all? Because I got a little bin hesitant.

Megan (60:17)

I did too. I was like, I don't know about this, but. But the results were in. This parallels a lot of what we see within training theory. A lot of what we see within running is that the athletes that had more successful seasons accumulated more low intensity time training in zone one and in zone two. Um, and then their higher intensity time total were similar, which led. When you think about like the total distribution was leading to lower relative intensity for the more successful athletes. Yeah.

David (60:43)

And this is what you see over and over and over again is that when athletes get more successful, it's rarely by adding more intensity. And so what is that showing us when it's lower relative intensity for the athletes that are more successful? Could be showing us a few things.

Megan (60:56)

I was just about to say this. We are vibing.

David (60:58)

Should we do turds in a punch bowl to start? Um, or should we do the actual driver?

Megan (61:02)

You tell me what I mean, I'm actually curious. We haven't talked about this. You tell me what you think the actual driver is. Now I tell what you think it is.

David (61:07)

I think the actual driver is that you start to see full saturation of intensity adaptations so much sooner than people assume agree that the. That the saturation point is not scaling as a percentage. It's not like, oh, 80% of a big number or, you know, 80% easy, 20% hard, that the number just becomes smaller and smaller. So you're. There's a. Some turn point that varies by the person but is generally similar across the population and individual sports specific, where any more intensity is going to lead to worse aerobic performance rather than better. Because if intensity didn't do that, you would see it in cycling because there isn't injury risk in the same way. Like runners, you're like, oh, well, if we could avoid injury, maybe we do a ton of intensity like the Norwegians do. Um, but that's not really how it works. And so I think what we're seeing is intensity saturation points. Right. Likely related to like AMPK signaling that once you do it, it's, it is a very small bucket and anymore and you're just overflowing the bucket and it starts to degrade. Aerobic adaptations.

Megan (62:11)

Agree. I'm gonna add a confounder here. So I agree with that a hundred percent.

David (62:14)

You're gonna say talent, talent.

Megan (62:16)

But I also think there is something interesting in the sense that like, think about who you give more zone one to. You're like, okay, you're ready, we're ready to start adding some doubles as it relates to running. You know, cycling, they don't do doubles very often. You're ready to start adding some easy volume. Those are usually the healthiest athletes and thus the athletes that are more ready to respond to.

David (62:35)

But in cycling, no one really gets injured in the same way.

Megan (62:37)

But I feel like in cycling like, you know, you're not going to give someone who's really struggling with reds or an eating disorder a substantial increase in zone 1 volume. Thus I feel like we also might be measuring for health. And health is a proxy for performance in addition to longevity. And so I think, I think about that in running all the time is like we're known for low volume training, but that's a subset of our athletes. We also like when athletes are ready and healthy, we step them up up to big volumes of training and. But that's a selection process and we make that. And so I'm, you know, I'm curious about the selection of athletes that are training at higher volume.

David (63:09)

Well, I think the more interesting point to me from a selection perspective here is who has time for the.

Megan (63:14)

That's also two.

David (63:15)

Yeah, that's also very true for women's cycling in particular. A lot of them are working other jobs.

Megan (63:19)

In fact, they're often doing things like they're engineers and doctors and teachers and like working really high profile jobs.

David (63:25)

Yeah. So maybe they're just time right. Limited, you know. Thus what you're ending up seeing is the super talented athletes who get the big contracts are self selecting for the highly successful seasons. Thus they have more time to just go out and spin on the bike. Thus it's not a driver at all. Um, you're actually just measuring VO2 max. And if you striated them by that at the beginning, like if you measured VO2 max at 18 and fatigue resistance, it would be totally disconnected from any of these findings. So, so that's what I would say if I was trying to poke holes in it. But on the plus side, it confirms our biases, which is always wonderful. Um, so that's kind of how Jess changed training this year. A lot of people have asked, well, what changed from Boston last year, where she went two minutes slower, to this year? And basically it's similar. There were some wrinkles in the workouts that made them interesting, but largely it was just increasing zone one volume, like pure zone one volume, just a little bit.

Megan (64:16)

I think something really interesting that we were talking about in the airport last night as it relates to marathon training theory, is like, yes, that zone one becomes really important. But I think in some sense, like as you get to Jess's level, and I think we can see this, there's applications to trail and to cycling as well, is once you're starting to run that fast, you're thinking about competing. And when you're thinking about competing, you're thinking about workouts that are structured around pace changes so that you can cover surges and come back and cover surges and recover, you know, within the context of, like, continuing to run really fast. Whereas you think about an athlete that's developing and you're trying to get them fast enough and strong enough to just. Just cover the course in a fast amount of time. And I think that's what's changed a lot with Jess, too, is like, pace specific change workouts.

David (64:56)

Marathons are weird. There's a few different things. And one thing in particular that I just wanted to throw out there for the physiology nerds. So the obvious element we're trying to do in trail training is to push threshold and VO2 max super close together and have an athlete be able to ride threshold almost the whole marathon.

Megan (65:13)

How fun does that sound? We're just gonna go ride threshold.

David (65:15)

Super fun.

Megan (65:16)

I want to do that on Paul Reit. A joke all weekend about Paul Revere. Paul Revere is just out there riding threshold.

David (65:22)

Paul Revere went to the same Duncan we did.

Megan (65:23)

Oh, he did? Yeah.

David (65:25)

He was slurping that oyster jizz everywhere. Was like, oh, Paul Revere went there. So that's understood. And I think that's at the cutting edge of training theory. And it's something that we emphasize. But when you reach the insane levels. So this is just people like Jess and, um, maybe it applies a little outside of that, but it takes being a freak. You know, we're talking countermance. Stuff like that. Is we're. We're also looking for is the ability to go above threshold pace and not actually go above threshold, which is so fucking strange that I Don't want to get into it too much because I have my theories about how to do it. Thus, weirdly enough, we were training the entire time for a bottle drop where you have to run sub 5 minute pace and get back on. Because. Because in that moment, Jess, even though she is going faster than threshold pace, it was short enough that she didn't actually exceed threshold. If we were measuring her physiology in the moment because you couldn't do that and then finish the way she did. So I think that this is very similar to the way a lot of African groups train, even if they're not thinking about that exact adaptation. So I have a lot of theories that about how physiology can go pop above threshold but not actually have the physiological response subsequently. And it is relevant for trails.

Megan (66:38)

I was just going to say that's where I was going is what is running uphill like a steep hill at the end of a race and trying that same exact concept.

David (66:45)

Or sub ultra trails.

Megan (66:46)

Exactly. Yeah.

David (66:47)

And I think swap has had the most success we've had in sub ultra trail historically. Right. Like that's where everything was began. And so it's where being multidisciplinary is kind of cool because you can see. Oh well, how does this relate to this?

Megan (66:59)

And which also actually relates to cycling because there's so many moves within cycling. There's also a lot of hill structure.

David (67:04)

Yep, yep. And so it, it's fascinating. And so many thoughts.

Megan (67:08)

Also Schemo thinking about the transitions.

David (67:10)

Exactly. And so very exciting. But most of that is just percolating stuff that I don't know if it's the actual driver. Um, thus who knows. And so. But related to that cycling study, there are two run studies that we just wanted to connect that show this happening again. First was number three on our list of top 10 studies of 2025, which is called training intensity distribution of marathon runners across performance levels. Uh, it took 120,000 different runners and it analyzed their training, correlated that with results. And listen to this finding which you're going to recognize from the cycling study. Higher intensity volume stayed the same for faster and slower runners across the population. It seems that the most important intervention is just increasing low intensity training time. And then here's a quote from the study. There were strong negative correlations between marathon time and mark years of training volume and the proportion of training volume completed in zone one. However, the proportions of training completed in zones two and zone three. So this is in a five zone model or three zone model. So zone two is hard in this model. So Basically, that means three through five in a normal model were correlated with slower marathon time. So in other words, harder training, slower marathons, and a million confounders there. You know, obviously if you're, if you're a slower athlete, you might have issue. Like, you're always going to be pushing harder just to run, so it can create some issues. But same exact finding as the cycling one with a lot more data.

Megan (68:30)

Also, isn't that fun as an athlete? Like, I feel like the older I've gotten, the more I love Z1. Like, I love to just go out and bounce around and feel good and just have that, like, time out there and wherever you are now, depending upon, like, you know, sometimes athletes have saturated that point and it's important not to saturate it and go over it. Like, we have coach athletes that come to us with these, like, bonkers training ideas in terms of how many hours a week they want to do, and it's like, just get faster.

David (68:54)

Well, just like fast, fast get saturated total, easy get saturated total. And we're not seeing that in these studies because they're not measuring, you know, in the marathon study, it's not measuring high enough quality athletes. Like, it's not. The. The group is not just focused on people who have unlimited time to train in cycling. You're also just seeing a sport that, you know, you can go out and spin in zone zero and it's just different than running. Um, but just like intensity gets saturated, it easy gets saturated too, just after much higher volume. And. And the studies aren't seeing that, but we promise. And that's the part that athletes sometimes take too far and training systems take too far, and we're trying to push back on. It's like volume matters, but it is a proxy for physiological adaptations. Not the end goal. If you chase it as the goal, who knows? But that being said, John career did do 150 miles a week.

Megan (69:38)

That was epic. Yeah. But also, who knows?

David (69:41)

Who knows?

Megan (69:41)

Who knows? Sometimes it's very hard to drive training theory.

David (69:45)

Exactly. Who knows if anything Jess did had anything to do with how Jess performs? Maybe it's just that Jess is the ultimate superstar, right?

Megan (69:52)

And she is.

David (69:53)

And she is.

Megan (69:53)

And.

David (69:54)

But the point being, like, maybe that's all it is, right? Like, maybe 12 different training approaches could have gotten her this fast, and maybe two of them could have gotten her faster. Maybe she'd be running 218 at Boston. I mean, maybe. You know what I mean? You just don't know. Thus, it becomes really difficult to draw conclusions. And so, you know, check our biases at the door.

Megan (70:11)

But she's also healthy too. And I've seen athletes.

David (70:13)

That's the big thing.

Megan (70:14)

That's the big thing is I think also this principle of like, oh, we're just gonna add more Z1 and Z2. Time can be, especially within running when there's a biomechanical impact can be taken to the extreme, to the point where like consistency at the end of the day is the best.

David (70:26)

Yeah.

Megan (70:26)

And so, you know, you're finding a balance here between increasing volume, especially of low intensity training, but also health and also speed. And that's kind of all like, you know, on a seesaw. And sometimes like too much volume can counteract both the health and speed equation.

David (70:40)

And I think the volume has to be in a context of power. So if your top end power isn't developing, the lower end volume will be less efficient. And that's maybe the core principle that motivates our entire training theory is top end power needs to be high for the bottom end power to have a higher floor. Because if you have a higher floor, all of that aerobic work that you're doing will be more economical. And that's the place where trail athletes miss the mark most often. It's just not developing the top end power enough, which doesn't need to be complicated. It doesn't even need to be much at all. Like you saturate those pathways like with 10 minutes of work, let alone, you know, some of the hour, hour of work that you might be seeing in, in these other things. So yeah. Oh, other study I wanted to mention was maybe my favorite one ever. From 2019, training predictors of long distance performance took 85 athletes and found volume of easy training was the big driver. Similar findings that low intensity proportions meant the biggest difference. So just something to note as all of these other new theories come on about workouts and all of that, that sometimes training can be a little bit simple.

Megan (71:40)

And I just love thinking about what you said about that high power philosophy too, of. I think my confidence in Jess in the Boston Marathon derived from the fact that she was racing fast 10ks. She raised a mile on the track with high school boys, which I loved. She's just dumping in fast races. But I think that power building was directly related to her close at the Boston Marathon.

David (71:58)

Yeah. Yeah. What a week.

Megan (72:00)

Yeah. It was so wild. It was. I honestly. So much fun.

David (72:03)

I love running so much right now.

Megan (72:05)

Yeah, I love running. I also love just like the date TR weekend with you. We take more Trips. Yeah, it was so. It was like. I mean, literally just having. I love our. I mean, I love our kids like, a crazy amount, actually. But even just, like, having just that, like, you know, little reset was just. For. Our relationship was, like, so wonderful.

David (72:24)

Paul Revere had sex with a firefighter in that hotel. Did you know that? Did you know that?

Megan (72:28)

I mean, based on how the walls looked.

David (72:30)

Oh, God.

Megan (72:31)

We were staying in this. Like, our hotel was, like, in a warehouse. And I'm. I'm like, what are all those things in the walls? Yeah, you really don't want to think too hard about hotel rooms.

David (72:39)

We should bring a black light next time.

Megan (72:40)

Oh, God, no. Oh, God, no. Our hotel was like. I mean, it was small. Our bed was, like, so close to the window. Like, when we got in, I, like, could barely. I was like. You had this picture of me just, like, standing all the way back from the window. Just like, I can't.

David (72:56)

Oh, one of the best memories of my whole life. So, yeah. Love you all. Thank you for being here. Give the podcast 5 stars. If you like it, it. Click, follow, listen to every episode. Let's probably get more new listeners on this one. Most of them are about science. They're all pretty weird. So. Yeah, it's okay if it's not for you.

Megan (73:12)

Actually, you were talking to a company that was, like, interested in sponsoring you last week.

David (73:16)

Oh, yeah.

Megan (73:17)

And no.

David (73:18)

No more details than that.

Megan (73:19)

No more details than that. It's pretty exciting. It's cool. David, that, like, also. It's really cool. I mean. Sorry, you're gonna hate me again.

David (73:24)

No, don't, don't.

Megan (73:26)

I mean, it's really cool. How many coaches at this level that are coaching Schemo, that are coaching trails, that are coaching, you know, fast road marathons are also top level athletes at the same time. How do you have time for this?

David (73:37)

I'm limping through the airport right now.

Megan (73:38)

You are limping. We should do something about that.

David (73:39)

But, like.

Megan (73:41)

But that's so cool.

David (73:43)

The sunset, I see it. I see the light coming for me. Maggie, hold me. Hold me close. I'm getting cold.

Megan (73:51)

As an athlete, you are walking so slow, getting off the plane and limping so hard. And I'm like, it's the Boston Marathon. It's great. Right now. Our flight's coming from Boston. Everyone's like, you crushed it. And at some point when you're limping that hard, you're just like, yeah, I did.

David (74:06)

You just accepted it on Thursday of last week. I told you, my foot's a hundred percent I'm a hundred percent healed. And then literally on Friday, like, I'm pretty sure if you put my foot in an MRI machine right now. Bad news, bears.

Megan (74:18)

Yeah, well, what did you do on Tuesday?

David (74:20)

Well, it wasn't Tuesday that did it.

Megan (74:22)

Okay, well, on Tuesday you're like, I'm gonna go downstairs.

David (74:24)

Oh, this is the little Easter egg at the end of the podcast.

Megan (74:26)

This is the Easter egg. I mean, there's multiple Easter eggs here.

David (74:28)

Oh, no.

Megan (74:31)

You're like, I'm gonna go downstairs and run a four minute mile on the treadmill.

David (74:34)

No, I didn't say I'm gonna run a four minute mile.

Megan (74:36)

You're like, I'm gonna try to.

David (74:37)

I said I might.

Megan (74:38)

Yeah, I was confident. I was like, he's gonna run a four minute mile. So I went down there and filmed. And you got like. I feel like I put pressure on you. And I'm sorry about that, but I just wanted to be down there for the moment.

David (74:46)

Yeah, I don't thrive with pressure.

Megan (74:49)

I'm not a. Jess, we gotta work on that.

David (74:51)

I'm good, Megan. I don't need it anymore.

Megan (74:53)

I can just.

David (74:54)

I can just hitch my wagon to people who do thrive under pressure like you. I'm good. I'm done.

Megan (75:00)

Kind of love pressure.

David (75:01)

I'm ready to just. Just coach my way into the sunset. It'll be so fun.

Megan (75:06)

So you did that and then you did a workout. You did a great workout. You did 10 by 400 at 4 minute pace. And then I'm sitting at my desk and, you know, I'm getting updates about the workout. And then a text pops through and you're like, megan, can I send you something a little weird and a little strange? And I was like, oh, hell yeah.

David (75:23)

Oh, no.

Megan (75:24)

And then I get a video.

David (75:25)

Don't do this.

Megan (75:26)

Can you? It's in the. You put it in the podcast online.

David (75:28)

Wait, did I?

Megan (75:29)

Yeah. That means it's fair. That means it's fair game. But you wrote it in there. That means. That means we can talk about it.

David (75:35)

Okay. Okay. Well, yeah, so I, at the end was like, really feeling myself. Right. Because I had this good workout that does indicate, like, you know, I'm in a good place to just. I wasn't. I was.

Megan (75:47)

You are in a great place a week ago. Okay, but then what motivated this mindset of what you're about to do?

David (75:53)

Okay, so I. I'm actually really curious

Megan (75:55)

what in your brain was like, this is a good idea.

David (75:58)

I was watching Noah music videos on YouTube. Yeah, I don't know. How that relates, but maybe it does.

Megan (76:03)

I don't feel like this relates.

David (76:05)

And I was like, well, you know, this might be the peak. Like, and so I. I took the camera, I put it behind the treadmill, like I'm propped on a little weight stool and took a picture of a naked four minute pace.

Megan (76:19)

You didn't take a picture. You took a video.

David (76:22)

That's true.

Megan (76:22)

Of you running naked on the treadmill at 4 minute pace. And then you sent it to me and it was the best moment. I was sitting at my desk and I was just like, I mean, we don't do. This is not like, I don't think there's any naked photos of either of us besides just like, being in the bathtub.

David (76:36)

I've never sent you any risque text. It's just not.

Megan (76:37)

It's just like, I mean, we see each other all the time. We just walk, even if we didn't.

David (76:41)

Like, Like, I feel like I would just be so cringe in that setting. I don't know how people do it.

Megan (76:46)

Well, I just don't want it on my phone either. Like, my phone. I just, like, Leo just hangs out with my. I just.

David (76:51)

I don't want your cringe on my.

Megan (76:52)

No, no, I want your cringe. I don't want my cringe on my phone. So I don't do it. Like, I literally have never taken a picture of me naked in any kind of risque way and send it to you.

David (77:00)

The only picture I feel like you've ever sent me that's a little risque. Was when you went and got a haircut and she sent me a picture.

Megan (77:07)

Hated it.

David (77:07)

Megan hated it. And her eyes were just covered in tears. Like, her entire face covered in tears. And just Chris, like, totally frowning and she was like, it's terrible. That was like the only picture you've ever sent me. Like that.

Megan (77:19)

Oh, my God, it was so bad. I just. I don't have it within me. But then you sent me this naked. It was like 20 seconds of you running naked on the treadmill and it was the best thing ever. It was. You were running four minute pace. It was great. But then I asked you because, like, like it was only you running on the treadmill. I'm like, if you clearly film this yourself, like, where you cut the video, I'm like, I want the uncut of you walking over, you know, like, you

David (77:44)

want the uncircumcised video.

Megan (77:46)

Yeah. Of you walking over and pressing start.

David (77:49)

Megan, we're already at one hour, 20 minutes of the podcast I mean, this

Megan (77:52)

is perfect for this.

David (77:53)

Perfect for this.

Megan (77:54)

This is perfect time for it. But it was great.

David (77:57)

Yeah. Oh, do you think if we. If I posted that on Instagram?

Megan (78:01)

You should not post on Instagram.

David (78:02)

Do you have followers or gain followers?

Megan (78:03)

You would definitely gain followers. And you like. Oh. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. See? I mean, it was.

David (78:08)

I think I'd lose so many followers.

Megan (78:10)

You look so good running naked at four minute pace.

David (78:13)

You know what's hilarious?

Megan (78:14)

What?

David (78:14)

Every time I post something funny, I lose so many followers.

Megan (78:17)

I mean, it kind of makes sense. I mean, you're. I mean, like, you're posting like out there things which I love and respect.

David (78:25)

Yeah. But I respect it about myself that I've seen that in the data. Like, they tell you how many, like, unfollows you get and you're like, I'm

Megan (78:32)

still going to do it.

David (78:33)

I'll lose like 250 followers from one joke post.

Megan (78:36)

Yeah.

David (78:37)

And then you do one training post and it's like. And I'm like, let's do the cringiest shit you've ever seen.

Megan (78:43)

Okay. But that's what. It was good. Yeah, it was really, really good. Yeah. It was the sexiest motherfucking Paul Revere I've ever seen.

David (78:49)

Everyone sees how much you support me on this episode, which is incredibly cool.

Megan (78:54)

It was beautiful. I almost could not handle it when you sent it to me. I was alone at my desk. I was like, God damn it, what am I supposed to do now? It was so great. It was so good. But that's. Then. I don't know if I can say this. You broke our treadmill. I need to do a workout the next day.

David (79:11)

I didn't break it. We've had this treadmill forever. It's a year and a half. We. It just needed one new update.

Megan (79:16)

Okay.

David (79:17)

We never made.

Megan (79:17)

But the last thing that it saw was your naked ass. And then it was like, I'm just gonna retire forever. I'm gonna go to a farm upstate.

David (79:25)

Well, all it took was one update that we didn't do. And it's good now, but yeah, I mean, that should probably show you from an unbiased perspective what happens. It's like the unbreakable treadmill that's done everything we' asked it without a single ounce of maintenance. It just is like, you know what? I need a day. I need a day. I need to take a break. That was too much. And if you ever do that again, we're done.

Megan (79:47)

Well, my favorite thing is you sent me the uncut version of this video and you took your shorts off and got on that treadmill. So you were like. There was. I could sense there was a part of you that was like, I am doing something so naughty right now that I got to do it was naughty so fast.

David (80:01)

We talk a big naughty game. I am not a naughty person. I was never a naughty person in my entire life.

Megan (80:06)

Yeah, neither am I. It's perfect.

David (80:08)

Yeah, exactly. We're very Hermione coded. You especially. You even look like the actress.

Megan (80:13)

I actually get that all the time. It's very weird. Maybe not as I get older, but.

David (80:16)

Yeah. I don't know. Am I. I don't know who I am in Harry. I don't know enough about it yet. Honestly. I kind of just want to be. Who do I want to be?

Megan (80:24)

I don't know. Do we want. I don't think we want to be anyone in Harry Potter. Yeah, I think we want to get out of that.

David (80:28)

Get out of that world.

Megan (80:28)

Get out of that world.

David (80:29)

That's true.

Megan (80:30)

Yeah, that's true.

David (80:31)

That's probably. Very. Probably problematic.

Megan (80:32)

It's very problematic.

David (80:33)

Let's go back to the naked treadmill. Let's get on with in our corner. Anything to talk about before we get there.

Megan (80:40)

John Gianji, as always, we're getting to Janji after some wild times. But we had dinner this weekend with John G. Mike and it was so much fun.

David (80:47)

It's so fun. So Janji's based in Boston. We got to see Mike Bernstein, the co founder. Just the best human to like. It points out why Janji is so wonderful for the community and it's because they have this type of human behind him. It. So go to john g.com j a n j I.com and just shop all of their amazing stuff. What are you promoting?

Megan (81:07)

The trail short. I actually call this the pace short for the longest time, which is hilarious. But it's the trail spandex short and the pocket structure on it is incredible. Sports bras are incredible. You co signed too, because you got all your clothes wet this weekend running. You looked outside and it was raining and you're like, I'm going to wear every article of clothing I have. Thus you wore my John G. Women's clothes to dinner and you looked really great in the Rover, Marino hoodie and women's extra small.

David (81:30)

Thank you. I feel like what you meant to say earlier is that I aspire to female physiology.

Megan (81:37)

Yeah, that's so. I mean. Yeah.

David (81:39)

Yeah.

Megan (81:40)

You look really good in Splinter.

David (81:41)

Yeah. So John G is just crushing it across the board, their shorts are. So you just go to the website, get it all.

Megan (81:47)

It's awesome. Also, I've been wearing scrunchies. Check this out. I've been like. My mom gave it to me. I asked her for a hair tie. I didn't have one. She brought me a scrunchie. Just like a hair tie. Like a. Like, you know, like the.

David (81:56)

What's the difference?

Megan (81:57)

A scrunchie is softer. It's a little bit less tight.

David (82:00)

So it's just like a phenotype of hair tie.

Megan (82:04)

Yeah. It's also got, like, a little bit of, like. Maybe it's like an 80s coded throwback. But I remember being a kid and being like, scrunchies are not cool. And now that I'm like, 35, I'm

David (82:12)

like, now that we're the most uncool motherfuckers on the planet.

Megan (82:14)

Yeah. I'm gonna run naked on a treadmill in a scrunchie.

David (82:18)

Scrunchie. To hold some things down.

Megan (82:19)

Ah, yeah, yeah, that might be helpful. But I think John G. Is scrunchie. So I'm about to order them.

David (82:23)

You know what we need?

Megan (82:24)

What?

David (82:24)

A naked Megan video. Because again, again, Megan, it's just for us. I mean, maybe.

Megan (82:30)

David, we are not Megan.

David (82:31)

We may need some followers. We might need damn clicks. Where we going to get them clicks?

Megan (82:36)

The only fans. No, no one's coming for my body, man.

David (82:39)

Megan, them clicks.

Megan (82:41)

No, my body is not good enough for them clicks.

David (82:45)

Well, at least let's do it for the future, you know?

Megan (82:47)

Well, for. I'll send it to you. Yeah. You can film. Yeah, it'll be fun. You can be down there as I do it.

David (82:53)

Down where?

Megan (82:56)

That was terrible.

David (82:57)

I was gross.

Megan (82:58)

What are you talking about?

David (82:59)

I skipped the naked treadmill. You brought it back up.

Megan (83:01)

You put it in the outline.

David (83:03)

Okay. Okay. On to listener corner. So many good ones this week. Here's one. No need to reply. Just wanted to say thank you again for your help and everything you do. I was able to get a marathon personal best in extremely fast time despite getting fever before the race and only 37 miles. Miles a week average this year due to constant sickness. I had no cla pace. What? Going at what pace? I was going until halfway. I was just focused on enjoying the race as a celebration of everything we went through in the past year. Sharing that moment with strangers, looking into people's eyes, cheering under the rain, trying not to cry because every drop of hydration matters. Screaming very loud when passing the metal boards or the Grandmas playing the trumpet, pushing every mushroom cardboard side to get a boost because they work.

Megan (83:39)

Oh, the cardboard signs definitely work.

David (83:41)

I cried a lot before the race, mourning this moment I had been waiting for during six years. And I cried a lot at the finish line, releasing all of this pressure we in society put on ourselves. I realized what mattered most was not the time not even finishing or racing. It was all these Saturday mornings running and chatting with kind and supportive people. My only social time as a mom and my job was definitely not a kind environment. It was these times laughing at your jokes and getting dopamine hits from learning new, exciting ways to explore the limits of my own performance, which includes our mind and our definitions of performance. You created this community that the world needs in Europe too. We are especially behind on fueling during runs. It has been a game changer for my recovery and stress management. I remember listening to a podcast I used to like during COVID and the hosts made fun of listeners who considered them friends. I never listened to that podcast again. You guys are going through tough times too, and I hope you can feel the love and support from the community. The impact you have on people's physical and mental health, including mine, is tremendous. Again, thank you for all your work.

Megan (84:35)

That is so well written in.

David (84:36)

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Megan (84:37)

I feel like I want them to write a novel for some reason.

David (84:39)

Yeah. And just. Just so cool. Like, I don't know. When you're out there at Boston, you get to meet so many people who are listening almost every week, you know, and it's immediate friendship, right? Like, yeah, if you're out there listening. We know we'd be best friends in life. Like this listener. We don't have that much time for socializing. We wish we did have more.

Megan (84:57)

I wish we had more. Yeah, we should make more.

David (84:59)

We should make more. I feel like we have an, like, in person, Boulder group group. Like a pro group. It would be a gateway to, like, also having group runs and other things that we can just kind of branch out more, you know? What do you think about that?

Megan (85:12)

That would be so fun. Yeah. I feel like a big. Actually, that was a big takeaway from Boston is we just hung out with so many cool people and I think, you know, sometimes it's tricky when you have kids. Maybe we should just hang out with Leo's friends, parents, you know, in Boulder, and that would make our lives a little bit easier too.

David (85:26)

Yeah, I don't know. That's kind of like marrying someone that just happens to be on your dorm room for Your freshman year. Just kidding. We some them listen to the podcast every.

Megan (85:36)

So. I mean, my brother married his. His. Yeah, the girl.

David (85:40)

I mean, of course. Of course it can be.

Megan (85:41)

It can work beautifully sometimes. That is your soulmate. I mean, and maybe one of Leo's parents. One of Leo's friend's parents is gonna be our, like, friend, soulmate. Great soccer practice. Parents are gonna be all about it.

David (85:53)

It's true. I was being intentionally provocative. Megan, it's called podcasting. Yeah, that's the reason we have a podcast. Don't need to stop. But no, I fully agree with your point and also think, like, I was reading a book this weekend, and they had a big discussion about true love and that, you know, the person, partner in the book, she was talking about how, you know, they would, like, am I your one true love? Essentially was things like, no, of course not. You know, if I was living in the Congo, I would find someone else that I love so much. And I thought that was, like, a really interesting discussion. And so obviously, to me, where do

Megan (86:29)

you stand on that? I'm like, I'm curious.

David (86:30)

I mean, yeah, sure.

Megan (86:32)

Yeah, like, what do you mean, yeah, sure?

David (86:33)

Well, I don't think. I mean, it's hard because I. I don't think, you know, it. It almost gets back to faith versus, like, an understanding of relativistic physics, you know, where, like, you can have a spiritual faith and then hold that with relativistic physics. And I feel like one true love is kind of like spiritual faith. Right. And in this regard, I feel like. Like I have one true love. Right, Agree. Yeah, but, like, the relativistic physics is like, what if we had never met? Yeah, actually, I probably would be alone.

Megan (87:01)

I mean, I don't think that's true.

David (87:02)

To be fair, I. I think I would be alone. So I think I honestly, my. My true answer here. I have one true love, and you have just the convenience, the one person that you met.

Megan (87:14)

I disagree. I actually. I think that's beautiful point about holding the, like, faith and physics together at the same time and how many things in life are like that.

David (87:21)

Yeah.

Megan (87:22)

Because I feel like I actually hold this very same thing. It's like one true love. But then there's also, like, you know, if we were in the Congo, we'd be like, that sounds fun. You know, I'm sure no one's running naked on a treadmill in a Congo, though.

David (87:32)

Oh, don't. I mean. Yeah, probably not.

Megan (87:34)

Yeah, no, I'm sure no one else I met in life would Send me a naked video. I'm actually.

David (87:40)

David, there are probably so many men that would send you naked videos on the treadmill.

Megan (87:44)

Four minute piece.

David (87:44)

Megan, you're going to get.

Megan (87:45)

I mean, that's so glad. That narrows the population down. 4 minute pace. Narrows the population down a lot.

David (87:50)

Lot. A little bit.

Megan (87:51)

I mean, a substantial amount.

David (87:53)

A little bit. I mean, thank you. But back to the listeners thing, you know, though, them crying at the finish line releasing all this pressure that we in society put on ourselves. That's where it's at. You know, as soon as you can do that, like everything unlocks and I'm working on that so hard and everything. Right. Like in coaching, that is something I face. I mean, it honestly really helped as an athlete going through everything in the last two years. Years, because it helped me understand that no opinions matter other than people who care about you and, you know, all that pressure that we're holding, you can just let that shit go, you know, and. And seeing Jess before and during this race and after, you saw someone that has gone through it enough to reach the point where they can put pressure to the side or at least compartmentalize in a beautiful way. And yeah, I'm gonna just try to be a little bit more like her, a little bit more like Amanda and just all the people at Boston that lifted us up so much, most of all Corey the therapy dog.

Megan (88:49)

Corey the therapy dog was clutch. I feel like pressure to. It takes putting yourself in a situation where you fail and you hit rock bottom and you're like, well, that sucks. But you know what? It's better than not trying at all.

David (88:59)

And it's not bad.

Megan (89:00)

Yeah.

David (89:00)

It's honestly not bad.

Megan (89:01)

Yeah. I think I need to fail a few more times.

David (89:03)

Let's go hit rock bottom.

Megan (89:04)

Let's do it. Yeah. Naked at four minute pace.

David (89:08)

Damn clicks.

Megan (89:09)

No.

David (89:13)

Wardrobe malfunction. Damn clicks.

Megan (89:17)

It's like the Sharket.

David (89:18)

The shark.

Megan (89:19)

What am I thinking of? I'm thinking of the super bowl reference.

David (89:21)

The super bowl reference. Oh, the.

Megan (89:23)

Where with the wardrobe malfunction.

David (89:25)

Oh, the Janet Jackson thing. That was actually kind of an unfortunate suicidal moment.

Megan (89:28)

I think it really was.

David (89:28)

Actually. It showed that how women were treated was not good.

Megan (89:33)

Yeah.

David (89:34)

And now I'm making feminist proclamations for.

Megan (89:39)

For Paul Beer.

David (89:42)

Paul Beer.

Megan (89:42)

You know, he was doing what? He's going for them. Click. He really was coming. Yeah.

David (89:47)

It was the first Buzzfeed article.

Megan (89:48)

His graveyard's getting them clicks.

David (89:50)

10 reasons I know the British are coming.

Megan (89:54)

It's the best dad joke to end this podcast.