310. The Fatigue Resistance Episode! Rachel Entrekin Makes History at Cocodona, Women v. Men Durability, Fueling and the Central Nervous System, Brain Changes, and More

Summary

Some Work, All Play — Episode 310 Summary
"The Fatigue Resistance Episode! Rachel Entrekin Makes History at Cocodona, Women v. Men Durability, Fueling and the Central Nervous System, Brain Changes, and More"
May 12, 2026
Hosts: David Roche & Megan Roche, MD

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the science and stories behind fatigue resistance in endurance sports, sparked by Rachel Entrekin’s groundbreaking performance at the Cocodona 250 ultramarathon. The hosts weave recent personal health challenges, groundbreaking studies, and athlete case studies—especially focusing on gender differences in durability, neuroscientific underpinnings, and the role of fueling—into an accessible, compassionate, and often hilarious conversation. The episode is notable for Megan’s honest update on her heart health journey, and the hosts’ signature blend of evidence, empathy, and levity.

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Megan’s Heart Health Journey (00:16–17:19)

• Megan shares details of a recent emergency room visit for chest pain, which escalated into days of cardiac testing (03:14).
  • Notable findings: high troponins, suspicion of Wellens syndrome (“Ballsy to name a syndrome after yourself when it’s bad news!” – Megan, 05:14), ultimately ruled out myocarditis.
• Reflections on the unpredictability and emotional challenge of living with ongoing heart issues and medical uncertainty.
  • Megan describes grappling with “unrealized expectations” as an athlete:

    “I know I have the talent to do some things that I really want to do, and I just don’t know if my body’s going to let me. That’s the hardest part.” (09:41)

• Touching and humorous moments from the hospital, including encounters with podcast listeners who were nurses, and a lavender-scented stuffed pig meant as a “sacrificial stuffy.”
• David’s admiration for Megan’s resilience and humor during adversity:

  “You stepped into the unknown with such beauty and grace. Including when you were told definitively that you would never run again.” (10:48)

• Megan’s perspective on finding peace amidst waiting and uncertainty, emphasizing the universality of “unrealized expectations.”

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Rachel Entrekin's Historic Cocodona 250 Win (25:26–31:19)

• Rachel’s overall win and new course record discussed as a paradigm-shifting moment for women in ultrarunning.
• Praise for Rachel as both a person (“She is the best of humanity—so kind, so warm and giving in every way.” – David, 26:03) and athlete (“one bad bitch”—Megan, 26:07).
• Rachel’s mindset/mantra during the race:

  “Why not you?… especially women, we tend to talk ourselves out of even trying to do things… but why not, you know, why not try it?” (27:14, Rachel quote)

• Analysis of her fueling (60g carbs/hour minimum), sodium intake, and sleep strategy (just three 5–7 minute dirt naps over 56 hours)—highlighted as both bold and instructive for endurance athletes.
• Contrasts drawn between Rachel’s execution and the sometimes nonlinear science of fatigue resistance at extreme distances.

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Science Deep Dive: Fatigue Resistance, Gender, and Physiology (31:19–48:13)

Key Study Discussion (36:31–45:59)

• Featured study: “Highly Trained Female Runners show greater Durability and Physiological Resilience than Performance-Matched Male Counterparts” (Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports).
• Method summary: 11 men & 11 women, matched by ITRA score, completed three lab sessions including an uphill time trial and a 3-hour treadmill run with periodic intervals, all while fueling at 90g carbs/hour.
• Major findings:
  • Women had just a 1% performance decline over 3 hours; men had 10%.
  • Women’s carb oxidation dropped less, suggesting superior metabolic resilience.
  • Women's muscle strength, heart rate, and perceived exertion were less negatively impacted—suggesting both neuromuscular and metabolic durability.
  • Men exhibited higher energy expenditure, possibly confounding direct comparison.
• Academic nuance:
  • Possibility that results partly reflect relatively greater relative fueling for women.
  • Authors note need for further research into mechanisms and real-world implications.

Notable Quotes

• Megan:

  “The queens of fatigue resistance sometimes have very low sweat sodium rates... it’s nice to see someone with a higher sweat sodium do things in terms of durability that are mind-blowing.” (29:00)

• David:

  “Fatigue resistance… might be the most trainable metric. VO2 max, not highly trainable. Threshold, barely trainable. Running economy, very trainable. Fatigue resistance, highly trainable.” (48:13)

Beyond the Basics: The Brain, Fueling, and Adaptation (51:03–68:13)

• Fatigue resistance is largely independent of classic metrics like VO2 max; it's a distinct trait involving the central nervous system (CNS).
• Emerging theory emphasized by David:

  “This is all a brain process. The way the brain functions and transmits signals changes overall… If you train in a highly fueled state in these long efforts enough, you reinforce that signal to where the brain itself adapts.” (56:07)

• Supporting evidence:
  • Studies on changes in myelin thickness in the brain post-marathon, yet preserved conduction—a hint at adaptive, not simply degenerative, processes (59:10).
  • Personal and coaching anecdotes: high-carb fueling during long runs not only improves short-term performance, but seems to result in sticky, lasting enhancements to fatigue resistance—even after detraining.
• Interplay with electrolyte balance and muscle cramping:

  "Cramping is not a muscular fatigue issue… it’s about how the brain and nervous system conduct signals." (64:03)

Memorable Analogy

• “Long runs over 90 minutes for women and two hours for men, I am fueling like my life depends on it, and I want to finish that run feeling as good as I possibly can. Occasionally do efforts at the end of it, but usually just do it… and the brain adapts and everything gets better.” (68:08)

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Listener Q&A, Community, and Culture (76:53–92:53)

Key Topics Addressed

• College running culture: Is it changing?
  The hosts discuss whether the NCAA and collegiate programs like BYU are adopting healthier, more sustainable fueling practices.

  “It’s a behavioral, cultural process… if a contagion is allowed to spread, it is as bad as encouraging it to spread. So the goal is to constantly be having these conversations, constantly be uplifting cultures of burgers.” (78:52)

• The importance of education and culture shift, especially at the high school level, given the developmental vulnerability of teenage athletes (82:14).
• Listener stories reflecting how Megan’s transparent, resilient approach inspires others (89:14):

  “When they say courage, they don’t mean you winning a race. They mean you facing the unknown and stepping into it with love.” – David (90:49)

• The universality of grappling with change, identity, and expectations in sport and life.

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Entertaining and Memorable Moments

• The show’s opening section balances hospital humor, family updates, and heartfelt “best jokes in podcast history” around medical tests and podcast community support (03:38–08:28).
• Multiple laugh-out-loud exchanges about hospital snacks, “99th percentile vagina,” rock skipping as foreplay, and “spank bank” misunderstandings—always infused with love and honesty.
• Endearing couple dynamics as Megan and David vulnerably support each other through medical and life uncertainty.

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Highlighted Timestamps

• 00:16–17:19: Megan’s heart journey, reflections on athlete identity and health.
• 25:26–31:19: Rachel Entrekin’s Cocodona victory story, race tactics, and mindset.
• 36:31–45:59: In-depth breakdown of the women v. men fatigue resistance study.
• 56:07–68:13: The brain and fueling hypothesis segment—key for actionable insights.
• 76:53–83:13: Listener Q&A on college/high school fueling culture and athlete health.
• 89:14–92:53: Listener corner—community impact and the depth of personal connection.

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Fatigue resistance is a complex, highly trainable attribute in endurance sport, driven more by brain and CNS adaptations (and fueling) than previously recognized.
• Women may possess inherent advantages in fatigue resistance, but both sexes can improve with targeted training and nutrition.
• Rachel Entrekin’s Cocodona triumph represents more than a race win; it’s a testament to reframing what’s possible, especially for women in endurance sport.
• Honest storytelling and community support—exemplified by Megan’s health journey—can be as inspiring as athletic achievement itself.
• Cultural change in sports is ongoing; education, role modeling, and supportive environments are necessary at all levels.

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Notable Quotes

• On unrealized expectations:
  “I feel like I’ve had so many unrealized expectations as an athlete. Like, I know I have the talent to do some things, and I just don’t know if my body’s going to let me… I can’t use the training block I just put together, which, actually, I’m quite fit.”
  —Megan, 09:41

• On fueling and CNS adaptation:
  “If you train in a highly fueled state in these long efforts enough, you reinforce that signal to where the brain itself adapts.”
  —David, 56:07

• On culture change:
  “It is contagious, like an airborne illness… if a contagion is allowed to spread, it is as bad as encouraging it to spread. So the goal is to constantly be having these conversations…”
  —David, 78:52

• On courage and community:
  “When they say courage, they don’t mean you winning a race. They mean you facing the unknown and stepping into it with love.”
  —David, 90:49

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For athletes, coaches, and anyone facing adversity—this episode is a love letter to durability, both on and off the trails.

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Welcome to the stomwork All Play podcast. We are so happy with you today.

[A]

Happy Tuesday.

[B]

It's Tuesday.

[A]

We're bringing our best gems on this Tuesday.

[B]

Our best gems? What are you talking about?

[A]

I'm holding up my wrist. Oh, yeah, you got me a Mother's Day gift. It is beautiful. We got it up at the farmer's market in Nederland.

[B]

I did ask Megan yesterday. I'm like, is it okay that I didn't get you anything for Mother's Day?

[A]

I was like, absolutely.

[B]

Okay. So we ended up going to the farmer's market and you were picking out bracelets. I was like, megan, do you treat yourself, girl? I stepped up.

[A]

Those bracelets over there are beautiful. And I was like, look at you assessing women's jewelry.

[B]

Yeah, this is my jam. I know this so well.

[A]

So we were picking through all the bracelets. I got a tiny ass wrist. And so it kind of narrowed the selection of bracelets. And they all had these, like, circular. What do you. I guess beads. And they all mean something. We really did not look into this much, and so we picked one out. I was like, I think this one's beautiful. You were like, I agree, Megan, that's my favorite.

[B]

The main meaning you wanted was is this sexy as fuck. And it was. It was so sexy. But as we were taking it out, what is the meaning of this one? And it's mostly green orbs, I would call them around the outside, and then

[A]

one beautiful pink little guy hanging out in the middle. And so we brought it up and we asked them, and they said, the green ones are for healing and the pink one is for heart. And boom, boom. I almost cried on the spot.

[B]

Heart healing. Okay, so we're talking about that because last week you may have heard some rumblings as we recorded. We were like, oh, our life is a crap storm, and all of this other stuff. And I was making Megan record that right before we went into the ER for a heart checkup. That. I mean, honestly, it went about as well as it could have, but we're still in a really uncertain place.

[A]

It was a Sunday morning and I was existing in chest pain. And you're like, megan, I think we should record the podcast now. And I was like, what are you talking about?

[B]

The reason you were saying what are you talking about? Is because you thought we were going to get out earlier, not be in there for three days.

[A]

I was convinced. I was like, I'm going to walk into the emergency room. I'm going to get a cardiac mri. I'm going to do due diligence on my heart, and then I'm going to leave and I'm back in time for our Monday or Tuesday podcast recording. And somehow, you little bitch, you knew.

[B]

Well, in fairness, I was the one that was forcing you to go to the ER in the first place.

[A]

That is true. That is true.

[B]

But I got to get my girl on the street.

[A]

And you kept dropping little inklings of it. You're like, this has been a hard week. This is a hard time. And I was like, damn, David, I'm going to be fine. I'm going to be great.

[B]

Hey, dirty baby, I got your money. Here's your podcast. Don't worry.

[A]

What actually is a thing. Like, if we miss a Tuesday podcast, it's kind of a big deal. We've never done it, but we know that from other podcasts, that you really don't want to miss a week. And so we're committed to it, but we should really have one banked at this point.

[B]

Well, we had a lot of fun, though.

[A]

It was a lot of fun. It was a good way to go out into the emergency room.

[B]

And somehow, even when you were playing through discomfort and fear, you had the best joke, I think, in podcast history, which I didn't give enough recognition to at the time.

[A]

I don't even remember it.

[B]

What are you.

[A]

What are you talking about?

[B]

It was in reference to. To the vagina ranking system that Brian Johnson had. We need to know if they're in the pocket of big vagina. And I told people to go to 99th percentile vagina.comSwap for their 40% off. I was just so proud of you. I mean, you stepped up, and then that's emblematic of everything. And so, you know, a very serious topic that we're joking around about. You went into the hospital. It was a series of tests. We're not going to get into everything here because, you know, we're still learning, right?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I walked into the emergency room. I had mild chest pain, kind of typical of what I've had now since December. It's been a long time of dealing with this stuff. And I went to Stanford the week before, and Stanford has this amazing sports cardiology team, and they're like, megan, you should take this a little bit more seriously. You should make sure you're getting the full battery of tests. I was like, okay, the next time I have chest pain, I'm going to go to the emergency room. I'll get the full workup. And I did not expect what was about to come.

[B]

So you were in ER waiting room, right? And you met a podcast listener there.

[A]

She was incredible. And this is the reminder of the podcast community. Like, I was sitting there, and she walked in. It was a pretty quiet emergency room. There's actually another guy in the running world there. It's a small world. And she walked in. She's like, megan Roach. She's like, I just saw David driving away. She's like, I hope you're not here. And she was just so wonderful. And it was just one of those reminders of, like, the community out there and, like, the running community at large, too. And, you know, I sat there for 30 minutes, and she, like, I was clearly struggling, and she offered me a blanket, and she just was, like, really incredible.

[B]

When strangers are offering you blankets.

[A]

Yeah. That's when you know you look bad.

[B]

Something's going on.

[A]

I had, like, my head in my hands when she walked in, and I looked up at her, and she's like, are you Megan? And I actually just started crying. I was like, yeah, that's me. I'm here. Yeah.

[B]

So over the next three days, there were many, many tests. There were some worrisome ones. Some good ones, actually.

[A]

Yeah, I have a point on this. So I walked into the emergency room, got the test done. I had high troponins, which is a marker of, like, you know, heart inflammation or heart challenges in terms of, like, heart muscular breakdown. Yeah. I had an EKG that showed something called Welland syndrome, which is, like, biphasic T waves. And this is what got everyone worried. I've never had this before, and you don't want this. Yeah. And this is the thing. Wellens.

[B]

Wellens.

[A]

Wellen syndrome is named after, like, a cardiologist. This is a ballsy cardiologist. It's, you know, it's something that, like. So if you have this on ekg, it predicts potential, like, heart attack or myocardial ischemia. And that's, like, not a good thing, obviously, but what a ballsy cardiologist to be like, I'm gonna put my name on this ekg. That is a terrible thing for your future.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's like when you have uncontrollable diarrhea. Roach syndrome.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, who would do that? Also, when I clearly a male cardiologist,

[B]

when I heard about Wellen Syndrome, I sent you YouTube videos of Tim Wellens, a WR, the professional cycling attacking. And I'm like, this is the only Wallen Syndrome. We have this rider attacking.

[A]

I love it. Like, there's the unhappy triad in the knee, which is a combination of, like, acl, mcl, and meniscus, like, injuries to the knee. And clearly, some sports physician out there was like, this is the unhappy triad, but I'm not gonna put my name on it. Welland should have been smarter and been like, this is the unhappy triad of EKG findings.

[B]

We might have to add to this, because that's actually Dr. Unhappy. But, yeah, I mean, it was just. It was so scary and traumatic. So for those that don't know, we don't need to get in many details, but Megan has some sort of autoimmune condition that has led to some heart issues in the past. It's been characterized as pericarditis and recurrent pericarditis. This time there were plus myocarditis in

[A]

2021, which is the fear is that's why I went to the ed. It was like, we need to rule this out, because this has just been going on for so long.

[B]

And, you know, I was in the hospital for all day with you as you're going through it, and I got to hear a lot of the conversations, including cardiologists telling you, you're 35 with two kids. It's time to retire.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I was like, Courtney dewalters in her 40s. I was like, we need to pull up a Wikipedia of all the top female endurance athletes competing right now. I got time.

[B]

You were like, yeah. And within that. Yeah, I heard you saying, I'm just getting started.

[A]

Well, I feel like when you've had, you know, two pregnancies now and coming back postpartum, I'm like, my. My mileage is low, guys.

[B]

So you got a cardiac mri. You got a heart cath, which was pretty.

[A]

That was the big one. Yeah.

[B]

Podcast listener was the nurse for surgery there. That was really fun, actually.

[A]

It's kind of wild when you have podcast listeners as nurses. Like, the nurse nurses are wonderful in general, like, just their ability to take care of you and their kindness. But it's really funny. They're like, I'll listen to your podcast. And then, like, three seconds later, like, I'm going to move this towel off your crotch and go in for a shave.

[B]

Because they were entering, you know, for the cath, they're going up and scanning your heart, essentially putting, like, a pipe cleaner up there, as I understand it in my scientific knowledge, exactly what it is.

[A]

A pipe cleaner with a camera.

[B]

Yeah. And they have to go in through your groin area. And, of course, that means they have to Shave you. And so nurse goes down there and, nope, we're all clean here.

[A]

I wonder, in the land of cardiac cath, I'm probably, like, you know, bringing the average age down quite a bit. I'm sure the average age is, like, 65. Going into those. The prevalence of shaving is probably quite low.

[B]

Well, we're not going to get into test results, but on the plus side, in that cath, they found that you had the cleanest arteries they've ever seen. They told me, and I was excited about that because I was a little worried. Are we going to have to go back on high carb? Are we going to have to change? Are we going to have to pivot to a low carb podcast?

[A]

I did have that brief moment, like, you know, if this is some kind of, like, you know, coronary artery occlusion or something like that, and, like, is

[B]

high carb or is it burgers or

[A]

whatever, is high carb gonna be blamed?

[B]

Well, I mean, you know, every. Everything you read, it just scares you. But no, in fact, you have the healthiest heart in some ways, and then other ways, there's still a lot going along. And maybe to summarize it, you're kind of like that old Suzuki Reno I had when we met in that. Oh, man, it makes a lot of noises, but I'm not sure what's exactly going on.

[A]

You did hydroplane that thing on a highway. Maybe that's not a great.

[B]

It was already making noises before that. That's kind of like you running through this.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

It's not the running that causes it. It's whatever the underlying condition of the Suzuki Reno is.

[A]

And I do have some kind of regret because, you know, this has been going on since December, and I think I probably should have gone to the emergency room much sooner to get these answers. And we're still kind of figuring it out like it's pericarditis still, and still ruling out some other things that might have caused some of those abnormal labs and EKGs and so kind of existing in this place of, like, medical uncertainty and waiting. Like, they've ordered a lot of tests. And I think the theme, you know, it's. Once you get to the ed, you're just. You're waiting for. You're waiting for the next test, and I'm still waiting for a lot of tests. And I think it's just like trying to find peace in that place of waiting and not knowing.

[B]

And there's medication options, there's hope. There was a period of time in the hospital where it seemed like there would be no hope, where that joke about, you know, 35 and two kids was very real. You know, that, Megan, you were told that you're never gonna run again. And then some tests came back different than was expected.

[A]

Yeah, no myocarditis on cardiac mri. That's a huge win.

[B]

And, I mean, I can't imagine the whiplash of being told you're never gonna do this thing you love again. Like, every listener knows how much you love the process and just want to go out on your bike and spin around the neighborhood or go into our backyard trails and jog, like, even if it never includes racing. And so how are you feeling as you recontextualize things in this uncertain future?

[A]

It's been hard, honestly. Like, this has been a really hard process and still, like, waiting to get answers. And so I think I'm, like, reserving judgment for, like, the big emotional cascade until I fully understand, like, what's going on here. Like, you know, just have a lot of tests pending. But I think the hardest thing is just, like, I. Now I'm just wandering in the woods very slowly, and on Mother's Day, went and read a book, Theo of Golden, which is a great book. And one of the characters in the book was talking about unrealized expectations and unrealized expectations as it came to being an artist. And I feel like right now I'm kind of grappling with that of, like, I feel like I've had so many unrealized expectations as an athlete. Like, I know I have the talent to do some things that, like, I really want to do, and I just don't know if my body's going to let me. And I think that's, like, the hardest part of this whole process is seeing that and knowing that and believing in that. Like, it takes belief. And I think I've built that up of, like, I'm gonna go for it. I'm gonna see what happens. And this is what happened when I went for it. And, you know, I don't know what that means for the future, but for right now, you know, I can't use the training block that I just put together, which, actually, I'm quite fit. You know, right now, I'm rapidly losing that as I'm just hanging out, not exercising. But it's like, you know, I think

[B]

that's the biggest challenge that's so challenging, and it's beautiful how you phrased it. And so, I mean, I'm just so proud of you. Seeing you in There maybe the coolest thing to me is you were so kind to everyone and so funny with everybody that came in. And it's just like, you know, that's what makes you so special, and that's how you lift up so many people. And so for everybody out there going through it, which is all humans at some level, it's like, I saw Megan step up into the unknown with such beauty and grace. Including when you were told definitively that you would never run again. I mean, that was one of the scariest things I've ever seen.

[A]

Also by, like, a cardiologist I trust, too. I've been told that sometimes by people that, like, you know, sometimes I'm like, have you run before? Do you understand the endorphins of this? But that was a cardiologist who's an athlete and, like, you know, someone who gets this and understands why I do it.

[B]

Like, when your cardiologist has been on the slopes of Mount Everest, that's when

[A]

you're like, I'm gonna take what you're selling me seriously. And so I have a lot of things to think about ahead and to process, and I think that's very real. But thank you, David. Like, you've been so incredible through all of this. Like, we had a moment hanging out in the ED where you just came and laid on the bedside next to me, and it was actually quite funny. All the providers who came in were like, you guys are snuggling in here. Bringing the good vibes to the ED

[B]

snuggle game was strong. It was strong. In fact, at one point, I went down and I was like, oh, you just get her flowers for her room. And I realized the best startup idea of all is you sell bouquets at a hospital.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

They were $50 for, like, one flower. I'm like, no, no. Instead, I got you a. A pig. A stuffed pig.

[A]

Actually, it's a lavender, like, scented stuffed pig. Yeah, it's quite great.

[B]

You might leave me for the pig because I do not smell like lavender.

[A]

No, the pig is actually a sacrificial stuffy because I might need the pig's heart.

[B]

That was why I got it, is because if we need a heart transplant. Sorry, pig.

[A]

The first one to go. Actually, I feel like having a lavender scented heart would be great for something like Cocodona.

[B]

Boom, boom. So good. So any final things to talk about or takeaways?

[A]

Just that this stuff is hard. Like, anyone that's gone through, I feel like unrealized expectations applies to, like, anything in life. When you really think about it. And in some ways, I'm lucky that mine applies to running. I mean, it's the thing. One of the things in the world I love the most. But I feel like it could apply to a lot of things, like love or, like, the ability to have a family or work or so many things that are, like, fundamental to the day. And this is my unrealized expectations path. And maybe it's not like, you know, maybe this is some story of triumph that I don't know yet. I think the odds are very, very stacked against that. From the doctor who's like, you're 35 and have two kids.

[B]

October, when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Animal House quote. Yeah, I'm there with you, and we got this. You know, we're going to figure it out. And.

[A]

And I'm trying to find joy in each. And I've actually, like, you know, this weekend I didn't do a single running step, barely walked. And this weekend was still really fun. And I think, like, it's been a challenge of, like, what can I do in life that's really meaningful and, you know, doing a lot more things as a mom. Traveling back to see my family this week in Philadelphia, and so just trying to find different things that are fun.

[B]

How turned on were you by my Roc rock skipping? We just went to the water's edge and I skipped rocks. And every time it was a good skip, I could tell, yeah, this is working. And every time it was a bad skip. I'm, like, dry as a cactus down there.

[A]

You can see my competitive brain, like, now that I can't be competitive, we're just gonna channel it into your stuff. It is kind of wild, though. I think, like, I've been dealing with a pretty high fatigue context here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And as I'm getting on better medications, starting to feel really good. And I walked down the stairs last night after putting the kids to bed o' clock at night, and you're just sitting on the chair working, like, finishing up work for the day. And I come down and I straddle you, and I'm just like, I think I'm ready to run now, Coach.

[B]

Specifically. Yeah, Coach, can I run now? While straddling me, I'm like, yeah, yeah. Best memory, though, of the hospital, that beef fajita.

[A]

Oh, my. I had to. This is the thing. So I was waiting. I went in Sunday, had the cardiac cath on Tuesday, but they kept waiting to take me in kind of emergently. And so I was NPO for, like, the Entire duration.

[B]

Which means you couldn't eat or drink.

[A]

Yeah, it was so rough. I actually was just sneak and mince. I was like, this doesn't count. But we had these beef fajitas after the procedure, and it was so wildly good. Actually, not. It was after. It was like, after.

[B]

It was sometime in there, like, within that frame. I think it was on Monday because they pushed everything back a day. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you to everyone at Boulder Community Hospital. Thank you to everyone that read between the lines last week and on Patreon. Um, I think that if there's anybody that's gonna figure this out, it's Megan. Um, you know, you're also a brilliant doctor. You understand so much about health and. Yeah. I mean, the odds are not in our favor right now, probably, but we're gonna keep coming on this podcast and telling the story, and I don't know,

[A]

we'll see what happens and keep doing it safely, too. I think that's a big thing. And like, hi, Mom. Hi, dad. As you listen to this podcast.

[B]

Dad's not listening.

[A]

Hi, Mom. Pulling the family. Pulling the family together on this one. Yeah.

[B]

She just might be the one that everybody listens to.

[A]

I know, and I do, like, you know, I think I was a little bit just cavalier with heart pain since December. Like, it just kind of became, like, very normalized to me in a way in which, like, if you experience something often and, you know, I was still able to run pretty well.

[B]

When it comes and goes.

[A]

It comes and goes. It's fleeting.

[B]

Got better for weeks at a time.

[A]

It's really hard. Responded to nsaids. It's really hard to know. But this time, I, like, really want to take it seriously. And, like, you know, our two kids, our love, our relationship. Like, there's so many amazing things in the world. And if it's not running for me, like, I'm peaceful with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

yeah. Well, there'll be a lot of beef fajitas in our future either way. Yeah.

[A]

I'm honestly surprised. It took me 16 minutes to cry.

[B]

Yeah. I'm very impressed.

[A]

Pretty good cry fatigue resistance over here.

[B]

I was on.

[A]

I got the cry durability.

[B]

I was on Zwift yesterday and just crying away. Crying away. And my dad comes in. Grandpa, who we love so much. Grandpa just sees me on the tail end of a cry, and he's, like, going through it. Yeah. And he just leaves.

[A]

Was there any part of you that was, like, embarrassed to have your dad see you cry? No.

[B]

Dad gets it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, he knows how much I love you. He loves mom that much. And, you know, I wish I could take it out of your heart and put it into mind, but I can't do that. So we're gonna be skipping a lot of rocks, having a lot of beef fajitas, and, you know, we'll see.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's the hard part is, like, I also just don't want to scare anyone either. Yeah. And I think that's a real part of me is like, you know, we're gonna be careful here. And I don't wanna scare the podcast listeners either.

[B]

Life is scary, you know, easy. Not long enough. We're all like. And if we're recording this podcast for long enough, we're gonna have things that are terrible. You are going through maybe the worst case scenario for an athlete, Right? Like, it's having your heart, like, betray you.

[A]

And that's kinda the hardest part because it's like, you know, if I could pivot and be a cyclist, it's like, I would find. I mean, that would be very hard. It'd be a very hard journey, but there would be this, like, joy and I think just not having the daily endorphins.

[B]

Oh, for sure. But, like, every human goes through this, right? And so we're talking about it while you're going through it, and usually you don't hear these stories till later. And I'm so proud of you for that because that lifts up so many people in the process.

[A]

Well, I wasn't sure I wanted to share, like, you know, I didn't want to scare people. This is still. We're still figuring things out. This is still like an evolving journey. But I also think it'd be really hard to come on here and actually record a podcast without, like, last week.

[B]

At the end of last week's episode, Megan was looking at me as I made a dumb joke. She's like, david, no.

[A]

You know, it was bad dog. I had a moment where, you know, at some point, like in. In the Ed, when we were starting to find out all these things about, like, the troponin and the Welland syndrome, and I was having some weird rhythms on my heart called nsvt. And we were hanging out in there and I was like, I better, like, survive here because that podcast, that last one wasn't my best. We need to go out hard.

[B]

Wouldn't it be bad if the next week I'm just like, hey, guys, a little bit different episode this week.

[A]

This is a David only episode.

[B]

David only special, actually.

[A]

In fact, their first Night at the hospital, you had to go back home, like put the kids to sleep and you wouldn't need.

[B]

I could stay in from early morning to late at night, but I had to get back.

[A]

They kicked you out at 7:30 and we're FaceTiming to say goodnight. And you're like, megan, I have one final thing to say to you. And you're like, megan, we just can't have a third child after this. And I was like, david, I'm gonna die tonight. And that's gonna be the last thing you told me.

[B]

You were joking. You were joking.

[A]

I was kidding.

[B]

As you can tell, this is how we deal with problems. It's like a podcast episode mixed with some tears. So we love you guys. And I wanted to message from a listener that summarizes this really well. So we talked about this on Patreon a little bit on Friday. On the bonus episode yesterday, I could not stop thinking about Megan. I don't know her personally, but after listening to the SWAT podcast for five years, I've come to appreciate her so deeply. I want to celebrate Megan because in the past five years of listening, she has changed my life. She's helped me rewrite my brain about fueling and rekindle my love for running during some really hard times. Her courage is contagious. I can only imagine that I am just one of thousands who feel a deep gratitude for Megan. There's nobody I can think of who has such a fierce love for their partner, their children and their athletes. All while brilliantly bringing their passage passion for science to the masses. Megan, thank you for changing my life. Thank you for being a hilarious break from the world every week. Thank you for being an example of how a badass female athlete fuels and trains like a boss. Thank you for continuing to aspire us all to meet adversity head on with bravery and love. Your impact is infinitely bigger than any finish line. We love you, Megan. Huzzah.

[A]

Huzzah.

[B]

Huzzah.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are we gonna need a cry break?

[B]

No, we're going through to the straight episode. Quick roadmap for you. This is the fatigue resistance episode. Lots of special science on this one. We're gonna start by talking about Rachel and Trekken at Coconut250. I didn't look up how to say her name.

[A]

We were just about to google that before the podcast.

[B]

She's the best. I love Rachel. We'll talk about that. She resets what's possible. We talk about everything we know from that. And then a new study that Just came out this morning on fatigue resistance of women versus men. Has some clues generally about fatigue resistance. Then the strange nonlinear science of fatigue resistance, like how this is the fourth pillar of endurance performance, possibly the most important one of all.

[A]

And I was going through the science on this all this morning, and I love how the science all comes together across multiple different articles. And I'm excited. This is almost like a science corner in some way of linking together specific theories on fatigue resistance.

[B]

And we have some studies we even took out. So. So maybe if we go super deep, we go back up to those.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah. No, I've.

[A]

Is this gonna be a three hour special?

[B]

Anyone who has read my writing on Patreon knows this is my obsession. Like, scientifically is how this actually relates to physiology. So we'll get into that. Um, and then how it relates to fueling in the central nervous system. That's the key here. The brain, the central nervous system. Plus questions on fueling culture, who's the endurance goat? Uphill tremo workouts, going for it, and more. I don't know how many questions we're gonna get to based on that intro, but we'll see.

[A]

I feel like we have to do one or two questions. Have we ever done an episode like last year without a Q A?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I feel like we need to sprinkle one or two in.

[B]

Okay, so we're gonna get to Rachel Coconut, but before that, a quick promo for 99th percentile vagina. No, no.

[A]

For the fee, our podcast listener can give us a scale. I had a lot of people when you're in the hospital, you're just like, everyone's just gonna see my chest. Everyone's gonna see my groin. We're just. The vagina files are hot. It is kind of nice when you're like on the cardiac unit and I'm the youngest person there by far, and I'm like, like, you know, yeah, it's just.

[B]

Release the vagina files.

[A]

Redacted.

[B]

No, no, no. No redactions. So go to the feed.com swap. I'm sure the feed will love that one. They have so much great stuff. The main things I want to talk about right now first is Gnomeo mention this all the time, but we are hearing more and more from professional athletes who we do not coach. That is becoming ubiquitous now.

[A]

We talked about it last week about taking it in the evening before a race and then doing bicarb the morning of the race. And I heard more data points since the podcast.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Did you?

[B]

I did not But I heard from some podcasts on triathlon then triathlon, it's just everywhere and in triathlon is interestingly ahead of the curve. I, I was talking about this on Patreon. That's really curious to me is as I get to coach more like Olympic level runners or runners that are striving for that level where every margin counts. Right. Like this is not ultra running or trail running where it's, it's much more, you know, there's a lot of things going on and you're hearing about what the best coaches in the world do who might have worked with these athletes before. They're not doing like that much interesting stuff relative to cycling and triathlon. So in triathlon and cycling everything's getting pushed all the time. And so I genuinely like to look there and in there in those sports. It seems like Gnomeo is the thing. So bicarb, obviously you should probably be trying that if you're, if you're curious, but Gnomeo is much more of like a health thing and an adaptation thing. So here's a vote for going there now. It's probably going to sell out like within a day of this podcast, I'd assume. So go get some.

[A]

Why do you think that exists within cycling and triathlon? Do you think it's because it's much more data driven in terms of like cycling power is. You can try these interventions and then see differences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it makes it more likely to try different things that might work. Or you think it's like a culture thing?

[B]

I think the direct feedback from a power meter in cycling, whereas a running power meters and stuff just aren't the same.

[A]

Well, also like, especially when you're on trails, it's all so much more like wishy washy in terms of pace.

[B]

Oh, definitely. But these are roadrunners I'm talking about about. There it is. I, I think partially too, it's adaptation where in road running and running in general, we're not pushing the adaptation curves quite as hard because we're limited by mechanical breakdown where they're.

[A]

That's a great point.

[B]

Whereas their aerobic monsters, which gets back to the power meter points like different sides of the same coin. So Gnomeo, the other thing, I'm not sure if it's going on as this podcast comes out, but there's currently a science and sports sale. So the beta fuel gels are life giving. Try the electrolyte gels. It was 30% off last I checked. But even if it's not now those gels are Great. And as much as I try to quit them because they raise the prices, they're just life changing.

[A]

Okay. We're gonna save so much money now that I'm not drinking beta recovery all the time.

[B]

Beta recovery is expensive.

[A]

Beta recovery is expensive and I swore by it. And so, you know, hopefully I'm back to training here in a few weeks, but probably not. You know, it's gonna take a long time to build up to the levels of beta recovery.

[B]

I did make a joke too on. On Patreon that I had to redact about. I'm not gonna say that joke. I will say that science and sports should be ashamed of themselves for. With that price of beta recovery. But. But their gels are life changing and beta recovery is worth it if you have the money. And then finally, just a vitamin D reminder, go to the feed. Search for vitamin Ds. There's some great options that are on sale now. Thorn Vitamin D is the one we both take. I saw a brand there called Spoken that looks fantastic. It has NSF certification, but most athletes should be considering vitamin D and you can get almost any option at the feed.

[A]

Agree. And I feel like Spoken's a great name for a brand. Is it? That's kind of creative. Yeah.

[B]

Honestly, I hadn't heard of it, but I haven't either.

[A]

Now I'm gonna look them up.

[B]

The marketing and the branding looks so good. I was like, like, oh, man, I'm so gullible.

[A]

Did it get you?

[B]

It got me. So thefeed.com. all right, so the first topic that's gonna lead us into the fatigue resistant science discussion is the coconut 250 miler.

[A]

Okay. This was bonkers. Actually. It was going on when I was in the hospital. I just could not stop myself from refreshing that time.

[B]

Get off social media. You don't wanna be involved in the running world.

[A]

Meanwhile, I'm like, I'm hooked on Cocodona.

[B]

You know, I couldn't watch anything. I was just like, not in a good place. And. And we got to see Rachel and Chicken make history. And so I don't know Rachel that well personally, but I have interacted with her a lot in messages and things. And this is so cool because she is the best of humanity. She is so kind, so warm and giving in every way. The amount that she's lifted us up in just our fleeting interactions is emblematic of how she treats everybody. So this is a human that we can all celebrate.

[A]

Okay. You're gonna uplift her kindness. I'm gonna uplift the Fact that she is one bad bitch.

[B]

She's a bad bitch.

[A]

That was crazy. Like, I, I think this is one of, I think this could go down as one of the greatest performances of all time within our sport and also within the history of women's sports in terms of what she did and the precedent she set in terms of going for it and believing and even just her history, like, it's kind of hard to come back to a race for the third time and to beat your ghost and to go for it in that way. And I just think that's like, you know, classic bad bitch behavior.

[B]

And, you know, according to Alter Rosa Line, the actual goat all time and

[A]

so and Heather Jackson and Megan Eckert and.

[B]

But the idea being that when Courtney's there and you go out like that, you're measuring yourself against something different. And any athlete knows that even if you're rooting for everybody else, if Jim Wamsley's at the start line or Courtney's at the start line or Killian, it's just a different situation. And here is the quote that I wanted to read from Rachel from right after the race. During the race, the mantra that I kept saying was like, well, why not you? You? I felt a lot of imposter syndrome when I was out front at mile 50. Like, what are you doing? You are going to blow up. You're going to go out too fast or too hard. All this negative self talk. And I was like, why not you, though? You've done this race twice, you've had success here. If anyone's going to win this, why can't it be you? Especially women, we tend to talk ourselves out of even trying to do things because we think that we're not qualified or we don't have the experience, or we just don't have whatever it takes, but why not, you know, why not try it?

[A]

I love that. Why not?

[B]

Why not?

[A]

And she could have played it safe. I mean, she was winning by so much at certain time points and she also could have played it. We, we went back through and Precision Fuel and Hydration actually released a YouTube video. It's like an eight minute video detailing all of her nutrition, all of her hydration, all of her sleep. She could have played it safer with a lot of variables, including sleep. Like, you know, she really pushed. To me, it's like she's pushing the limits of sleep science and what we as humans know we're capable of. And she did that knowing she had this huge lead just to, you know, get a faster time and get the overall course record. And I think that's cool. I think that's really cool.

[B]

Let's talk about how she pushed it. Uh, you were watching that video on very low volume this morning when our kids were sleeping.

[A]

Low volume and two speed. I was like, I need. Actually, I. I should go back and watch it again for pure enjoyment. But I was like, I'm here to take notes and bring it to the podcast.

[B]

How you used to watch medical school lectures too. So for those that are wondering if Megan catches all the information. Stanford Med bitches. Boss bitch. Um, okay, so the nutrition, she was aiming for 60 grams of carbs an hour at least, which is a lot because in the past she used to fuel way less. This is a fueling breakthrough as much

[A]

as any precision has some great RDs and nutrition consultants that she's been working with. And her fueling used to taper off towards the end of races, especially in these long races. And so they wanted to keep that 60 as a minimum throughout the entire race.

[B]

And 60 as a minimum is a lot for someone that hasn't fueled a ton historically. Fluctuations in fluid, not really focusing on that, but lots of sodium. So 1500 milligrams per liter. She must have a very, very high salt rate in her sweat, which is

[A]

interesting, actually, because sometimes some of our theories are that the queens of fatigue resistance sometimes have very low sweat sodium rates. And it's nice to see someone with a higher sweat sodium race do things in terms of fatigue resistance and durability that are like, mind blowing. And that's great for the athletes out there that are higher sweat sodium concentration in terms of their sweat. And so it's nice to kind of see that displayed.

[B]

Absolutely. And then. And she only took three dirt naps the entire time. Is that true?

[A]

That's true. Of five to seven minutes in length. I was going back through. So on, like the Cocodona live tracking, there's speed time plots and you can look at. You can kind of see when someone's sleeping. And I thought, I didn't see any in there. But she did take three to three five to seven minute dirt naps.

[B]

And that's over 56 hours. Courtney had major sleepiness throughout that. That was one of the things that seemed to sabotage her.

[A]

In fact, Heather Jackson in the final miles had some trouble with the hallucinations and was found, like, wandering off course. And so, you know, this becomes like, like the name of the game at the end of these races. Asleep.

[B]

That would be me. That would be. That would be Me at mile, like 1 01, I'd be in, like, New Mexico, and his tracker's a little off. It's like David's just doing his thing.

[A]

See, my problem is I would struggle with sleep the nights leading into the race. And so I would be like coming off a four day sleep deposit into Cocodona, and I think that would be pretty challenging for me.

[B]

Yeah, it's just remarkable. So she wins overall, resets the overall course record for men and women in the process, and the story goes like, like supernova, right? This has been covered in every news outlet. And I think it's just because it captures the imagination of a woman saying, why not me? And going for it in this way. And. And the cool thing about these really long distances is that some of the limitations that you might be looking at at short distances, pure muscular power, VO2 max, start to fall by the wayside because everyone's at, like a very low percentage of their VO2 max. So you're not seeing the same top end limitations. So you start to venture into this weird world of fatigue resistance, resistance where things aren't linear. There really aren't good understandings of why bodies respond like they do after certain amounts of load. Um, and it's not related to VO2 max or other metrics like that. It's kind of the holy grail of endurance performance. And, you know, Rachel has cracked it. Like, she obviously has really good genetics for it. She obviously has figured out most of the fueling. Like, she's not pushing carbs super high, but she's always been low. Um, and then you just kind of have, well, what happens when shit gets super, super weird?

[A]

And I feel like that's where she committed to just running. Yeah. Yeah. That's the kind of the wild part. She was running up Mount Eldon at the end and she was challenging herself to see how much of that climb she could run. Yeah, and then it was wild. I don't know. Did you watch the finish line interview of her?

[B]

I didn't see all the whole thing.

[A]

She was just hanging out in a chair, just talking candidly, like. Yeah, seemed totally lucid after not having, you know, all of these hours spent, like, sleeping or fueling her body or taking care of herself. And it was just kind of wild to see, you know, how she could be after the race, let alone during the race.

[B]

Yeah. I actually posted a photo of her on my Instagram because I was so impressed by what she did. And there was an iconic photo of her at the finish line that I Paid the photographer for. Because I was like, this is so good. I want to get this photo to more people that are just falling tangentially and might not be aware of this. So incredible. Do you see the final finisher and of this race?

[A]

Oh, he had the lean, the ultra lean, like I have never seen before.

[B]

People need to go see this online because so many videos are out there now of him leaning. This sometimes happens at the end of long events, and I'm bringing this up for a reason. Where his body is contorted fully sideways, where his head is almost near his waist on his right side.

[A]

I believe this one was structurally impressive.

[B]

It was structurally impressive. I don't know how it worked biomechanically. We should study the lean.

[A]

He did have to have a little bit of assist to assist, for sure. Entirely fair. Like, typically, in a race, that's not allowed, but I'm like, you know what? Special circumstances. This guy deserves it.

[B]

Yeah. I wanted to make some jokes as comments just because it would have been funny, but, no, this was too impressive. Um, and on one hand, it shows, like, the beauty of pushing yourself. On the other hand, it's a little bit, like, scary to see this.

[A]

Yeah. Actually, my first thought when I saw that video on Instagram, I was like, I'm not gonna go to the comments on this one. No, I'm sure humanity is like, what's happening here?

[B]

Well, when anything goes viral, I was going to the comments. Saturday Night Live. There was this incredible sketch last night on two auctioneers who are having problems in their marriage. Everyone should go see it. But the comments on it were all like, I don't under. Get this. This is dumb. Like, this is literally the funniest thing I've ever seen. The comments are the worst when things go viral. But on the third hand, the thing that I wanted to point out about the lean is it shows some weird nervous system impacts that happen in these long events. And that brings us to fatigue resistance is. So on one hand, you have the fatigue resistance of Rachel, this strange ability of the nervous system of the brain and spinal cord to resist signals that might be happening at baseline. And some of that is genetics. Some of it is training. We'll get into that.

[A]

Do you see elements of that in life? Like, I sometimes see what I call. And this, actually, I think, is a legitimate theory out there. This is my dad fact moment.

[B]

Oh, let's go for it.

[A]

I think this is your dad fact that I am now stealing.

[B]

Okay. So it might be wrong about the

[A]

sleep elite that there's A cohort of people that can thrive off of very low levels of sleep. And I wonder if it's in some ways that sleep elite nature is connected to fatigue resistance at these kinds of long, long races.

[B]

I can see sleep being connected because I think anything that is nervous system related might have connections, but I don't think that particular gene variant has had any association with endurance. I think that, that it's. It's a strange one. So I'm not. I don't know exactly.

[A]

Yeah, I would love to look at it. I'm sure it hasn't been looked at because, you know, who asked those questions.

[B]

And it's not a very big cohort. Like, it's not big enough to probably get. Get enough sample size, like statistical power to find those. Um, but you see what happens on the other side of fatigue resistance, where something happens in the central nervous system that causes an athlete to do a contortion. That's like Cirque du Dual Soleil shit. Like, it is crazy what was going on.

[A]

Um, actually we've been watching Dean Potter the show. Like he has the Dark wizard, which is a three or four part series on hbo. It's incredible, but I feel like we need to give that final finisher a parachute just to like hold his body upright.

[B]

Yeah, Dean Potter did a lot of BASE jumping. That's an amazing documentary. Oh, my gosh. Um, but how weird is it that the same thing that causes Rachel to be able to sprint at the end can cause that final finisher to be leaning in such a contorted way? And so that brings us to the big discussion of fatigue resistance. We're going to shoot through some things here and give you a primer on what we're thinking right now, because this is the place where everything is changing, right? Like a combination of fueling and hydration and all of that. But then also, I think approaches that touch on the brain and the spinal cord board that are changing how every athlete performs. And so let's start with maybe the most baseline question here. Is fatigue resistance of women versus men Very relevant as Rachel sets this record.

[A]

Yeah, I love this study coming off of Rachel. And I think this whole conversation is relevant in general too, because I think this is one of the most asked questions right now in cycling is how do we improve the fatigue resistance or durability of our riders? And as we got to that question of like cycling and triathlon being so like, like data driven and invested in kind of like the cutting edge principles, I feel like the questions around fatigue resistance are kind of like the cutting edge area of coaching and physiology right now. And so I think delving into the studies is helpful in this environment.

[B]

And also I think a lot of people don't ask why. Like, there's a lot of talk about fatigue resistance in cycling, but in running, sometimes people are like, well, the best way to do this is to give people six hour long runs or whatever. It's like, probably not, actually, because this is a brain context rather than, you know, something that's like direct, linear, physiological.

[A]

Well, I think that helps. I mean, I think it helped to some extent because there's biomechanical context to it.

[B]

But it gets back to, you better know why.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You better have an answer for why that gets to the brain and spinal cord, not just the legs, like the normal linear approaches to training theory. It has to go deeper than that, in my opinion. And so this study was called Highly Trained Female Runners show greater Durability and Physiological Resilience than Performance Matched Male counterparts. It just came out in the Scandinavian Journal of Medicine and Science and Sports. And I want to give a shout out to that journal. The Scandinavian journal is always dropping science bombs that blow my mind.

[A]

It kind of makes sense.

[B]

It does, doesn't it?

[A]

They got to uplift their heritage.

[B]

Yeah, the Norwegian heritage.

[A]

Yeah. Where are the Gnomeo studies?

[B]

Yeah, I always go to this journal when I want to find the most interesting applied studies. This is the place where they take athletes and put them through really interesting protocols. And I think so many of these are the ones that have pushed the field forward. Like, you know, the training intensity distribution studies primarily, but also the periodization studies and others come from this journal.

[A]

And this was a really well done study in terms of their methodology, how they had equal men and women and matched them. And so what they did was they took 11 men and 11 women and they matched some performance level and they did the matching using the ITRA score. And that was a really. Actually, I thought that was a great way. These were trail runners.

[B]

Yeah, to trail score they had like an advanced one category. So. So I think the men were just over 700 and the women were in the 500s, but that is equalized across the genders. And so they had them do three visits to the lab, which this mirrors kind of a study protocol recommendation I gave to a listener. And I'm realizing now I gave way too complicated of a recommendation to the listener. So the three visits were a graded exercise test, then a 12 minute uphill time trial, and then finally 180 minutes of a treadmill run at a standardized moderate intensity. So three hours long. But every 60 minutes, they did a time trial. And so you're measuring fatigue resistance across three hours relative to the standardized intensity, which is set from the uphill time trial. You do fresh.

[A]

And I really appreciate this because I feel like in exercise physiology, we rarely have study design in terms of training and testing that goes beyond two hours. And I think this is where starting to get at the fatigue resistance relevant to runners and trail runners matters more. What do you think they did? I'm curious here. What do you think they did for fueling?

[B]

Well, what I like here is I asked Megan, oh, I forgot to look for the fueling. And can you tell me what they did? And I was like, no. You're like, no, I'm keeping this for myself.

[A]

I'm gonna save this for the podcast. I want to put you on the spot.

[B]

A little golem over there with your nutrition data.

[A]

Like, did you read all the little specific methodology?

[B]

I'm guessing 9 grams of carbs per hour.

[A]

You what? That's exactly correct, and I love it. You know what? I was just teeing you up because I knew you were gonna get it right.

[B]

I mean, I knew a Scandinavian journal. They're not gonna around. They're going to do it right the first time.

[A]

You knew. Look at that.

[B]

Because otherwise you'd just be measuring responses to fueling.

[A]

Exactly. And I think it also proves the point, too, of why carbs interact with fatigue resistance.

[B]

Was that independent of body size?

[A]

It was independent of body size.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Independent of gender, which also disclaimers here, which also we're bringing up too.

[B]

But I could see this protocol being used for so many different interventions. So we're measuring men versus women here. But since fatigue resistance is the holy grail, I want to measure everything. Measure fueling, obviously, hydration, electrolyte bites, also like mental processes. We should just repeat this study protocol with similar equalization processes as many times as possible, and I think we'll figure out endurance within five years. Basically, we'll get so many more answers that you can't get outside of the lab, at least that's my hope.

[A]

And start getting more specific brain measurements too. And this is where we have studies ahead that are looking at very literally diving into the brain to understand more.

[B]

And literally diving in.

[A]

Literally diving off of a diving board into the brain.

[B]

That is so cool.

[A]

Full cannonball into the brain.

[B]

We were taking, like, I don't know, really, like, specific dives into your heart.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, we really were

[B]

okay, so the result here, this is shocking. Women got 1% worse. That's a little bit of fatigue. Men got 10% worse after three hours. That's insane. What a difference that is. Women had smaller reductions in carboxidation during the steady state between intervals. So this shows a little bit of what's happening here. The men got less efficient. So burning fat, even though people talk about it online as being a good thing, is actually a bad thing for performance because it's less economical. So if these men start burning more fat relative to the women, it might look to people that don't understand it as that's a good thing. In fact, that just makes them less economical and will make them fatigue a lot. A lot more. And for some reason, the women had small reductions in carboxidation. Not exactly sure why that is.

[A]

Yeah, actually, that kind of wouldn't be my hypothesis. Um, thinking about women being, like, amazing at fat oxidation. But that doesn't mean that they're, you know, that doesn't negate their ability to carbox size, which is like. I love that.

[B]

I think metabolism is so much more complicated than it's been given credit for

[A]

so far, especially when you feed it 90 grams of carbs an hour.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then the other thing that they showed was that females had greater resilience from maximal isometric knee extensor force, um, and also had greater resilience for heart rate and perceived exertion. And so these were the. When taken together with the carboxidation, this is the host of the, like, metabolic and neuromuscular system resilience that pushed females to have the stronger performance on these time trials in fatigue states.

[B]

One other weird finding here is that men had larger reductions in peak lactate across the intervals. So they started higher lactate or started high and then went down as they went, which shows, again, reduced efficiency of their substrate oxidation. So they're burning more fat. They're not able to push themselves as much. And this echoes a lot to me, a cycling. Cycling study that we talked about a couple of years ago that I got really obsessed with, that athletes who are able to access car box after two hours are the ones that had better fatigue resistance in professional cycling. So I think we're seeing the similar pathway here that the ability to access car box later in events is fatigue resistance metabolically. And why that varies. Clearly, there's a gender component that's really

[A]

interesting, and clearly there's a carb component that we're gonna get into this study later on. But if you feed the body, higher amounts of carbohydrates. It enables that ability of carbox later in events.

[B]

And my big theory is that it's trainable. And I think that's underscored by my personal journey.

[A]

Oh, that's a strong hypothesis, and I like it. Oh, Megan, you haven't made that on here yet.

[B]

I haven't made that on here, but I made it last week on the feed email.

[A]

Oh, did you really?

[B]

Megan was in the hospital. Megan was in the hospital, like, going through 8 million tests, having all these nurses come in and inspect her vagina. I'm there just typing away. I'm. Clickety clackity.

[A]

Actually. I was trying to work, and I got the pulse ox on my finger that I, like, asked him six times. I was like, guys, my pulse ox. I'm like, 98 to 100% every time. Can you just take this thing off my finger? Because it was really hard to type with it. I couldn't. Clickety clack. And they wouldn't take it off.

[B]

You need a clitoral pulse ox.

[A]

100th percentile, but 99th percentile.

[B]

Actually, 92nd. 99th isn't believable.

[A]

I mean, you better give me 99th.

[B]

You deserve that.

[A]

It's been a long week.

[B]

It's been a long week.

[A]

We're graded on a curve this week. Actually, that's not. The sad thing is, like, I'm on the DL this week too.

[B]

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Well, I don't. Yeah.

[A]

I feel like you're afraid.

[B]

I am afraid. If I'm not letting you go for

[A]

walks right now, you're like, I'm gonna send her into vtac.

[B]

That thing they talk about online. It's like, I've seen people post on, like, Instagram jokes about wanting to get their back blown out or whatever. That's funny. But you do not want to get your heart blown out.

[A]

I'm trying to blow out my left ventricle. Over.

[B]

No, no, I don't got that 99% going. Can't do that for me. Okay.

[A]

But the study also laughed and snorted for the first time, I think, in podcast history.

[B]

Boom. You snort actually more than you think you do.

[A]

I know. It's just covered up by the laugh.

[B]

So there were similar running economy deterioration, which is really fascinating, too. So this isn't just a biomechanical breakdown here. And so some disclaimers. The men covered a higher distance in their trial and had higher energy expenditure. So this could be partially a product of. If you set a higher baseline, you're having to do that higher baseline in the steady state and then you're going to be pushing yourself like just harder at baseline. So maybe the men were pushing themselves harder.

[A]

Interestingly though, that being said though, they included total distance as a covariate in the statistical model and that had a similar outcome when they did that. And so it doesn't like fully solve for that. But I was glad this is a sound paper in methodology. I was glad they did that.

[B]

They really saw through that. So yeah, the covariate piece is the main disclaimer along with the fueling. So that's the final one here is if there is a body sized element in fueling and the women were listed as they had their morphological characteristics and they had lower BMI and lower body size, then perhaps the women were just fueling more relative to body size and to output because the men had higher

[A]

energy expenditure and that, that is like higher speed when you're talking about output too. And does that have some element of the equation as well?

[B]

And they literally had higher energy expenditure. So you're not equalizing for that. And so you could just be looking at this is just a carb study in disguise.

[A]

In fact too, when you think about real world, so like the real world theory of this in cyclists is that when you look at field data that male cyclists are better at repeated bout efforts on like, you know, when testing fatigue resistance efforts than female cyclists. And that's really hard to control for at that point because there's so many things in the field like fueling and you know, raw power output and things like that.

[B]

But yeah, and that, that's maybe the final point on this is that this shows women at baseline, if you can take 11 data points as baseline might have higher fatigue resistance for some unknown strange reason. Perhaps it's metabolic, perhaps it's nervous system. That's my argument I'm going to get to. But in the real world at the professional level, the male cyclists have better fatigue resistance.

[A]

And that's been proven.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, in studies. So it's not that simple. It's a little bit more complicated than that. Um, but this overlaps with what you generally see where athletes like Rachel come in and you know, there's a disclaimer there too, is that, well, maybe if Killian did Cocodona, we'd have a different understanding of the women versus men context and we can celebrate Coconna without that framing being the thing at the forefront.

[A]

Okay, but let's get Killian to Cocodona.

[B]

Yeah, I know. No, I want him to do that so bad.

[A]

Killian Jornette versus Killian Kors. Let's go.

[B]

Oh, should I do it next year? I did say that last week.

[A]

You did, actually. You said that when I was in the hospital and I was like, let's just figure this out. Actually, maybe my heart would be better in Z1.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, maybe I just need to do upper Z1 for 250 miles.

[B]

That's what the cardiologist was saying.

[A]

That's exactly what he was saying.

[B]

He wasn't saying retire. He was saying go longer. He's saying, you know, there's definitely races, right, that go over a hundred miles because that's where you should go.

[A]

That's for sure where I should go.

[B]

I am curious about it.

[A]

I mean, I think I do think you would do outstanding at it.

[B]

Well, no, I don't think so. I think.

[A]

I think it takes away. To be fair, though, I think it takes away a little bit of the fueling equation. Right?

[B]

Or does it?

[A]

Or does it? That's the question.

[B]

That's the point, is that, you know, with 100 milers, I never thought it was. For me, as we're gonna talk about with fatigue resistance, I always had the worst fatigue resistance we've ever measured amongst pro athletes.

[A]

Athletes.

[B]

And we figured out ways around it and via the nervous system, via fueling, via training. And as a result, I think I was able to come into a hundred miles and kind of prove a point that has hopefully helped other athletes. And maybe if I went into longer distance once and was able to prove a point not about myself, but about how you can feel these. But the problem is I just don't. I think I would not be able to get within 10 hours of Rachel. So the point I would prove is this study that is like, some of us aren't made for this. And Rachel is.

[A]

Okay, question for you. From when it comes from a coaching standpoint, you take an athlete like Rachel who has outstanding fatigue resistance at baseline, there's probably a component of, like, you know, genetics there. There's probably training feeding in as a large component. To what extent do you have to focus on fatigue resistance efforts in an athlete that is already outstanding at fatigue resistance? And does that vary by gender? So if you think about, like, you know, training your male athletes, like, with fatigue resistance efforts more, because perhaps this is something that needs more training or, like, do you even think about it that way?

[B]

I don't think about it that way.

[A]

I don't think.

[B]

I don't gender it at all either. In practice, it doesn't really change how I approach things.

[A]

And you don't think, like, someone like Drew Holman, excellent at fatigue resistance, like, would test off the charts at this. Do you think about that when you train him, that you need to give him, like, you know, similar amounts of fatigue resistance efforts to someone who might not be as good at it?

[B]

Yeah, I think if you're good, get better, and if you're bad, get better. It's the same answer. Like, we don't know if there's a ceiling, a cat cap, at this. Like, because the cap is zero percent, like fatigue. And we never see that in the real world. Zero percent deterioration. So there. There seems to be. This is one of those highly trainable metrics. Like, running economy is highly trainable. Like VO2 max. Not highly trainable. Threshold, barely trainable. Running economy, very trainable. That's where our speed comes in, like strides. Fatigue resistance, highly trainable. That's where fueling and all this other stuff comes in. So you combine it all and who knows? So now we're gonna get to a deeper dive on fatigue resistance. But before that, a quick promo for patreon. Go to patreon.com swapswap they're starting at $5 a month. There's training plans for every distance. Um, no matter what you want to do, you're going to find it there. And you can send in requests for new training plans. These vary from six weeks, starting at 10 miles per week, or if you just want to be learning how to do this, all the way up to a hundred plus miles a week, like professional athletes. Um, also bonus episodes, heart rate zones. So much other good stuff.

[A]

You did a bonus episode this week, a solo episode by yourself, and you called me up at the end to come up with.

[B]

You're putting yourself on blast, too.

[A]

I'm putting myself on blast.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And I came up and I think I just was, like, so fatigued.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I could not communicate effectively at all.

[B]

Well, I told the listeners that you never came up in my edit that I made.

[A]

You fortunately edited me out because I was, like, wildly inarticulate in the three minutes that I was on the podcast.

[B]

I still want our listeners to get worried.

[A]

Honestly, I think I was coming into so much energy and, like, I hadn't experienced that energy, like, all week. And so, you know, to pop in for three minutes of that was slightly overwhelming.

[B]

Wait, I was giving you that energy in the hospital?

[A]

Oh, you were. But, like, it's different. Different when you're on a mic. A mic? Yeah.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe I should release that.

[A]

I know. Well, I'm glad we're 15 minutes in and I feel fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

After that I was like, shoot, am I gonna be able to record?

[B]

Oh, you're crushing it. So patreon.com swap swap. So much good stuff there. And in fact, I have a really exciting wrinkle to this theory about cramping coming this week about how to stop cramping. So if you want to see that, that's going to be 10 tips and might even talk about that briefly here.

[A]

Do you feel like fatigue resisting? Fatigue resisting. Do you feel like fatigue resistance and cramps are linked together?

[B]

And that gets into the next point, teeing me up and I'm gonna fucking knock this out of the park or I'm probably gonna strike out. But we will see. I actually have dreams about baseball all the time and I almost always strike out and if I hit the ball, it's like it just back gets knocked out of my hand. It's terrible.

[A]

Do you get sad after that and come to my side of the pillow?

[B]

No, no. After that I just, I have too low self esteem.

[A]

You don't even come to my side of the bed.

[B]

Oh, no. Okay, so this fatigue resistance discussion gets into how weird this is, how it might connect to cramps. So Gabrielle Gallo, who does this Knowledge is what newsletter. It's amazing. Follow them on Instagram too. Knowledge is Watt did a review of all of the studies on fatigue resistance and here's the key part F7 of them have found no connection between fatigue resistance and traditional measures of fitness like VO2 max. So in other words, durability or fatigue resistance as they call it, is largely independent from traditional aerobic fitness, fitness measured when fresh. So if we're just looking at training in a vacuum, what an athlete does on a time trial, what they do in the lab, even what it looks like on Strava, you cannot determine how much they're going to fatigue. And since races are determined by fatigue resistance, even marathons is. It's a fatigue resistance equation. Like what Jess McLean did at Boston is fatigue resistance. You don't know what's going on. It's not happening in linear fashion. So where is it coming from? That is the million dollar question.

[A]

And I guess it's kind of shocking, but there are still some like people out there that push back against fatigue resistan as an important thing. Which kind of blows my mind when you look at all the literature. It's like, well, here's 100 different studies in the last three years that are relevant to this conversation.

[B]

That's what's so cool is they're all happening recently. All the fatigue resistance studies have been in the last five years.

[A]

Yeah. And it's been this explosion of fatigue resistance right alongside the explosion of high carb. And I think that those explosions are not just convenient timing. I think they're linked. But do you think that someone that's a skeptic of fatigue resistance will look at the lack of connection between traditional measures like fatigue resistance and traditional measures like VO2 maximum max and say it means that we're not looking at something here like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think that would be a counterpoint?

[B]

Well, it's a correct point. We're clearly not looking at something. But the question is, what is that thing? And that's where the debate really lies.

[A]

Well, I think, I think there is. When you look at performance like you even look at like, you know, trail performance of long distance races like utmb and it's like we are missing something in terms of the explanation of what's happening, you know, when you look at other physiological principles.

[B]

And I think what, what skeptics would argue is that, oh well, you're just looking at, you want longest long run, which some studies have pointed out that or whatever. And it's just not that it's so much more interesting. And here's where the million dollar theory comes in. This is all a brain process. This is all a central nervous system process. And so here is what I was writing about last week and was really passionate about. Honestly, a little too excited, clickety clackity over there on the computer in the hospital. It was a lot, lot. How'd you feel about that?

[A]

Oh, I was, I was just, I was trying to do my own work.

[B]

Okay. So we had a fatigue resistance test for many years, echoed a lot of the studies. 90 minutes to 2 hours steady followed by a hard effort. And what was interesting initially in coaching is that those fatigue resistance tests could often predict subsequent results, even in athletes who had not yet showed it. Overall, um, I scored quite poorly on it. Megan scored quite amazingly on it. This was evident in runs we did together where Megan and would drop my ass on hills.

[A]

I used to drop you sometimes. I mean like in runs at the

[B]

end of 12 or 14 mile runs.

[A]

Yeah. On bikes. I don't do that anymore. And actually I didn't read this article. I need to go back and read it.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

It's been a busy week. I have a. I feel like I have a hall pass for that.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

Actually sharing sometimes this stuff is great because I'm like, I got a hall pass on life.

[B]

You got a hall pass on the best excuse ever. Megan.

[A]

It's a cardiac cath.

[B]

It's like, the dog ate my homework. No, I got my heart blown out my left ventricle, man.

[A]

The dog is my femoral artery, man. But it's my guess that that has changed now. So, like, the results of that test actually are not that predictive anymore for, like, performance long term.

[B]

You. Yes. Around 2019, the test got less predictive and less predictive. Until now, it's not predictive at all. It's just good as a snapshot to understand an athlete's physiology and to be a fatigue resistance effort in and of itself.

[A]

And that's where carbs come in, Right?

[B]

That's where carbs come in. And so. So what's interesting there to me, though, is not the simple fact. So I think there's one simple thing here is that short distance and long distance have gotten better. The entire cycling peloton, like in the Tour de France, has. Right. Shifted their power. So the times that would have been off the back and now wouldn't even finish races would have been winning races six years ago. It's crazy. And that's not some systematic approach to doping, because not everybody's doping. There might be some cheaters, but it's much less ubiquitous. Right. And so if you're seeing a rightward powershell shift, you're probably see in. In. Even when fresh, you're seeing some element of just you fuel, you train better, you adapt better. But here are the wrinkles. Um, the improvements have happened even for athletes who have not fundamentally changed training due to the carb signal. And then maybe the most important one of all, so much so that I put it in bold in the article on Patreon, is that the fatigue resistance changes seem to persist even after detraining.

[A]

Oh, that's music to my ears right now. I'm sitting here right now, literally detraining.

[B]

Yeah. So the, like, running economy fatigue resistance seems to be sticky. That once you cause changes in it, it adapts longer term. And that points to. There's an adaptation that's not happening in muscles or traditional aerobic measures, because those detrain, those will get worse. But the brain and the spinal cord and the way that it transmits signals that can actually persist over those durations. And if that's true, if it's stemming from the nervous system in that way.

[A]

Okay, this is your hypothesis, or have you Seen this in scientific studies. Studies.

[B]

Oh, I mean, of course it's a. I don't know how you would even study this.

[A]

No, I mean, you could actually. That could be quite easy to study,

[B]

but you need to study it over time. You need the longer term.

[A]

You need a long term. Yeah, yeah, you need a long term study.

[B]

So it becomes an issue of like in. We had another study in here that was going to lead to my overarching theory, but you took it out. We'll talk about it next week on why studies are. Are limited in this area due to measurement error. Um, so if this persists after detraining and you can actually reprogram your brain, that might explain more of what we're seeing in endurance than anything. And so my theory is that yes, this is a fueling signal, primarily and partially a training signal, but mainly fueling in that if you train in a highly fueled state in these long efforts enough, you reinforce that signal over and over and over to where the brain itself adapts. And we're not just talking adapting in a perceived exertion way, like a quant qualitative way. We're talking quantitative. The way the brain functions and transmits signals, changes overall. What do you think, Megan?

[A]

I love it, actually.

[B]

So the brain itself, that's what changed to me.

[A]

It's a ballsy hypothesis, but I love it.

[B]

Ballsy is the word of the day for you. It's problematic.

[A]

I've said that more than once.

[B]

That's the second time you said it.

[A]

Good lord.

[B]

Your doctor was ballsy earlier going, oh God.

[A]

Wellens.

[B]

I'm not sure exactly. I think so.

[A]

I think it was Wellens.

[B]

I think it was Wellens.

[A]

Wellens can be balls.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The other doctors are gonads.

[B]

I was like, this is really beautiful. I don't want to jump in.

[A]

Oh my Lord.

[B]

It's okay though, Megan. It's beautiful. Um, okay, so the reason I feel confident with this is one. You see it as a coach bunch. But then I felt it firsthand. I can tell my brain has changed. And maybe.

[A]

I mean, you also got hit by a Subaru.

[B]

True. And we have kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which goes into it like. Right.

[A]

That I do think that kids are fatigue resistance inducing in some way.

[B]

And so that brings to the next study, which is a preprint which I'm gonna need your help on. Is that okay?

[A]

David just burped in my face. We should leave it in.

[B]

Laid out the burp.

[A]

No, no, no. We should leave it in. That's hilarious. Was far enough away that it's not going to be jarring.

[B]

It was while I was speaking.

[A]

Yeah, that's. Are you good?

[B]

I think I'm just so excited that I'm emanating vibes from my colon.

[A]

You really are. Your colon's like, I want to come to this conversation. I want to seat here. Question, though, for you. Do you think we're going to get to a place of, like, brain hacking of. If we figure this out in time, is there a way to, like, you know, like, I mean, I don't know if this is considered doping or not. If it's just brain training of, like, you know, priming your central nervous system to get better at these repeated bouts.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't think about that, but I do think that we're probably gonna see things like deep brain stimulation.

[A]

Yeah. As a. That's something literally where I was going, remember? I mean, we've talked about this briefly in the podcast before, but I think it was Halo Neuroscience used to send us brain training kits that just hung out in our interesting closet in California for a while.

[B]

I bet it's gonna go deep. I bet this is gonna go into very, very strange directions. Which brings us to the next study, which is a preprint, as always. That means not peer reviewed, so take that with a grain of salt. It's called preserved brain function and reversible cognitive of adaptation during endurance exercise. It's a follow up to one of our top 10 studies of last year. So we might bring this out for a more broad discussion later on. Myin. That found after marathons, there was a reduction in myelin which affects brain. You know, go. Go for it.

[A]

You're like popcorn. Myelin is essentially lipid rich, and it wraps around the axons to provide metabolic support. And the axons are the ones that are responsible for sending signaling in the brain. And so, like, myelin thickness is relevant for, like, how axons send signals.

[B]

Okay, that reminds me of a joke from Saturday Night Live this week.

[A]

What?

[B]

It was two dolphins talking, and one's like, I want a thick bitch. I want some thick myelin.

[A]

Yeah, you really want. When it comes to myelin, you want a thick bitch.

[B]

Yes. And so actually, all the time, thickness is where we edit that out. David, you don't mean to say that.

[A]

Yeah, leave it in, leave it in,

[B]

leave it in, leave it in.

[A]

Okay, I'm. I'm much more. I'm like, you know, shoot your shot.

[B]

Just shoot your shot. Go for it. Um, so here's a quote from the study. Neurophysiological Recordings revealed maintained conduction latencies across motor sense. So I can't say that word. Can you say it?

[A]

Um, somatosensory.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That was easy for you. That was unfair. Uh, visual and auditory pathways within 48 hours after race completion, indicating intact axonal signal transmission despite reduced myelin content. So, in other words, you're seeing this reduced myelin content, but you're not seeing what you'd expect, which is effective latency. So the brain signaling was just as efficient. So clearly the brain is adapting. That's why I wanted to bring this up. If the brain is adapting in this morphological, functional way, that is a massive finding for how you can then train your brain to change its function over time.

[A]

It's kind of a massive finding for neuroscience in general. It's been a minute since I've been, like, deep in the neuroscience field, but that was an unexpected finding to me. And I'm curious to see how that came gets crossed over into things like medicine or how we think about, like, neurochemistry or other processes.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, it even goes for people that have brain damage. You see how the brain adapts to those spaces. People can lose entire sections of their brain and not lose the functions of that. Those sections in the brain. We don't really understand exactly how a lot of those, you know, transmission processes work. But think about training. If you're causing things like myelin reductions or other impacts on the brain, like everything is a brain process in training, outside of training, and you put it in a context where the brain is improving its function and improving its way it adapts, which fueling is the most obvious way, because that will preserve myelin, amongst other adaptations.

[A]

Actually, I would love to have a study that looks at 0, 60, and 120 grams of carbs per hour and looks at changes in myelin and see how that.

[B]

Well, and the big theory is that very, very high carb is all a nervous system signal that is going to the nervous system system. And that's probably true, is that part of it is metabolic oxidation. Most of it is just the brain. And so if you train in a very highly fueled state for endurance activity, my theory is that that causes fatigue resistance changes along with the training implications that you have to do fueled. So if you do the training when fueled, you can fundamentally change how your brain conducts signals over time and how you process fatigue, like how you signal it. Like in the old days, when I say I had bad fatigue resistance, I mean every 50k I did, kid, I would finish crawling and Cramping and being a total nightmare. And now even when I haven't been running for a while, I would be confident tomorrow going out and running a hundred miles because it persists after D training. That is weird ass shit. Because I used to work harder than I work now. I don't know what's happened.

[A]

It is so weird. The brain is wild. And I also wonder too like for me I noticed such a difference it later in the day in terms of how my brain thinks and how I'm able to work off of high carb training. And I would love a study that teaches takes athletes doing you know, two or three hour long runs. Comparing a group of 120 grams of carbs an hour or 90 even compared to like 0 or 30 and then giving them the NCAT, the MCAT later in the day and seeing what happens.

[B]

Yeah, I mean that'd be very direct but I want it to get even freakier like a long term. Yeah, well no, have them do like I don't know, some sort of brain conduction test. Like I think it's just going to fundamentally change how we think about it. If we start having a brain centered signal and this gets back to cramping to bring it full circle is the article that's on cramping is going to connect these two in that the training interventions that in my opinion go toward cramping which is complicated but we have some theories there also go straight to fatigue resistance and the reason is that we're seeing the central nervous system signal.

[A]

Or you could also change that so you know, focus on fatigue resistance to prevent cramps.

[B]

Exactly. You can go either way. Probably most likely the arrow bars go each direction. And if that's true, it points out that cramping is not a muscular fatigue issue. If it was, it would be so simple. It's not that it's so much more about how the brain and nervous system conducts signals. That's why a lot of people will have cramps in like their forearms. It's not because your forearms are weak or whatever. It's because your the nervous system signals are getting, you know, bypassed in strange ways. It can be excitatory or inhibitory depending on which muscle fiber it's in. It's very interesting. But if that's the case and you do this same type of practice is also the gateway toward cramping prevention. And I say that also as back when I had bad fatigue resistance I also cramped all the time.

[A]

You were a cramp boy.

[B]

And now I almost never cramp Ever. Like, I mean, you used to cramp

[A]

in your toes, like, your little toes all the time.

[B]

And I did cramp at the very end of javelina and then took two gels and it went away. And so this is just my favorite part of training, because while we're talking about this in ultra context, that's because it's easiest to think about. About. But fatigue, resistance is extremely relevant in everything over an hour. And then training, it will also make you better at short distances, because even short distances are mediated by brain adaptation.

[A]

Okay, you took two gels, and you also took an elephant's share of electrolyte tabs.

[B]

That's true. But the electrolyte tabs didn't seem to make that much of a difference.

[A]

I mean, you took the gels, like, 25 minutes after electrolyte tabs. How do you think sodium and electrolyte status connects to that?

[B]

Humongously. Yep, humongously.

[A]

Because, like, give me a triangle. Give me a love triangle of sodium electrolyte status, fatigue or resistance and cramps.

[B]

Okay. So I think that mainly has to do with electrical conduction, and electrolytes are key in that. And so messing up that balance will mess up the way the nervous system processes transmission to the muscles themselves. Rather than it being some fundamental metabolic limitation, though, the metabolic limitation is something. I think if we're only looking at the metabolic limitation, we're going to come away with a researched, derived conclusion, which is that electrolytes don't matter that much. That's what you hear all the time, especially as it relates to cramping.

[A]

But they're just missing the confounding variable.

[B]

They're missing the confounding variable because they're not measuring the brain and how the nervous system conducts. And that's also why every coach in the real world is like, electrolytes matter so much. Every nutritionist that works in this world is like, it matters so much. And then every study's like, we can't see why. And it's because they just aren't measuring the reason why. And it's probably very difficult to measure the reason why.

[A]

Okay, high five.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We need a new. This has been like David's hypothesis corner. You know what? I actually agree with all of them.

[B]

Thank you, Megan. Because you went to the hospital, which meant I didn't have to watch kids or exercise. So I was resting with Megan in the hospital, and you did.

[A]

You took three rest days with me. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you. But as a result, I just got to fig thoughts while staring out the

[A]

window and crying into the abyss, dude.

[B]

The abyss. That's where we were.

[A]

That's where our location was. Our phone was like, they're just in the abyss.

[B]

Yeah. So do you have anything else to say on this?

[A]

No, but I just, I think those are really, I'm, I like those hypotheses. You know, it's a lot of times you give me hypotheses and I'm like, nah, man. And I actually, I agree with those. I think that's, I mean, obviously there's a lot of science that needs to come on the brain and a lot of science that needs to come on cramping and sodium and all of these factors, but I agree.

[B]

Well, the big thing is always look to nervous system. If you can see a central nervous system connection, you are probably seeing some part of this pathway that we are uncertain about. Um, and then it's obviously a very complicated pathway, but even when it comes to training, always look at nervous system. So example from the cramping article I'm gonna write. So obviously carbs and electrolytes that we've talked about, um, but steep downhills, that's one that we always come back to. It has a nervous system component through the axons of nerves. Some really interesting studies there. Muscular endurance, like things like weighted vest hiking that people talk about, probably addressing the same system. For us, it's like step ups after training, things like that. Also pickle juice. That's obviously a nervous system thing. That's not changing anything.

[A]

Oh, you're just puckering and it hits your.

[B]

Yeah, you're changing something. There, there a bunch of others that I'll get into.

[A]

But did you throw caffeine into that list? Because caffeine obviously acts on the nervous system and is a big one. And I'm curious about, you know, how you think about that in relation to cramping.

[B]

Yeah, so obviously that would be an excitatory process. And so excess caffeine can probably contribute to more cramping, you would think.

[A]

But also caffeine could maybe get you out of cramping. Do you think? Maybe. I, I, it's hard to know like which way it turns out. Yeah, Varies by athlete too.

[B]

And cramping can be, like I said said, excitatory or inhibitory. If it's on the inhibitory side, maybe caffeine could help. Um, but probably it's the opposite. And that one reason athletes cramp a lot in races if they're not cramping at other times is hyperactivation of the nervous system itself. And that can just come from stress, but probably also comes from that. And maybe it connects to other supplements that might help, that can reduce those processes. Though that might be too much hypothesis for me.

[A]

Okay, the hypothesizing is going strong. This is a. I like this.

[B]

This is.

[A]

This is usually. Usually when you start hypothesizing, I'm like, show me the science. But I, I.

[B]

Well, if you want to know why swap athletes are doing good, it's because we talk about this shit all the time, right? Off. Off, Mike. So, like, you know, it doesn't mean that this is the only thing, but this is the thing that separates. Like, what. What can you do in a world where we don't think 160 miles a week is the answer. Like, this is our answer is think about the brain and think about how this actually leads to adaptation over time. And long story short, you can ignore all this. It just is cool, scientific, fun fact. And just think, this means that in long runs in anything over 90 minutes for women and two hours for men, I am feeling like my life depends on it, and I want to finish that run feeling as good as I possibly can. Occasionally do efforts at the end of it, but usually just do it. And if you do that over and over and over again, the brain adapts and everything gets better.

[A]

Okay, you are on fire.

[B]

Oh, you give me another high five,

[A]

I give you another high five. How about. This is more high fives than I've given you consecutively than any podcast.

[B]

This is what would happen, though, if we didn't have kids. Because, like, now, what would happen if

[A]

we had a third kid?

[B]

If we had a third kid?

[A]

No hypotheses ever, Ever.

[B]

You like hypotheses? We stop it, too.

[A]

We are gone.

[B]

Okay. We're gonna skip the crossover point. That's fascinating, but we gotta go. Is that okay?

[A]

Yeah, that's great.

[B]

We have another. We have so many studies for next week.

[A]

I know. I mean, and I've reviewed them all. Yeah, I know. All the works in the bank.

[B]

You're such a beast.

[A]

I love. It's actually really fun. Doing podcast research is a blast.

[B]

All the works in the bank. This reminds me of the term I taught you yesterday that you said you'd never heard before.

[A]

Oh. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Do you remember it? You got. I told you this, man. You have to remember this.

[A]

Yeah, I don't.

[B]

You don't remember?

[A]

No. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Spank banks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had never heard of it.

[B]

The studies are in the spank bank.

[A]

The studies are in the spank bank, which is good. It's the one spank bank we got right now.

[B]

Do you remember what I was talking about with spank bank?

[A]

We were walking. I remember exactly where you're telling me about it.

[B]

But you don't remember what it was about.

[A]

You were talking about putting something in the spank bank.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think we had, like, a whole collection of stuff sticks for Leo that he was, like, really excited about to throw into the water. You're like, these are all for the spank thing.

[B]

I don't think that was it. I don't think I could do with her children.

[A]

He saw me get a third child.

[B]

No, that's actually the opposite way.

[A]

How you get a third child with you for me.

[B]

Okay, we're not gonna go into that. Okay, let's go into Q and A for that. Just a couple very, very, very quick news items. Mainly me wanting to update Megan first. Last week, we talked about Sam Long and training volume. It was 45 hours per week. We were trolled. That was fake.

[A]

Yeah. What?

[B]

Yeah, he was participating. He was like, it was the Triathlon hour podcast or something. They were making the point we were making that training volume isn't the goal. And they just posted a social media without any context, and it went super viral. Everybody believed them.

[A]

There was literally. I scrolled through almost every comment. There was not one that was of disbelief. Yeah, that's actually kind of tricky because, like, do you remember the Dairy Queen study that went everywhere that, like, fueling after exercise with Dairy Queen was equivalent

[B]

to 42% better glycogen or something? Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, this. This is crazy. And there was no primary research. But it's also, like, how do you. Like, you have to take someone's word for training at some point when.

[B]

If someone puts it online without. I. I think trolling is a terrible way to use the Internet, especially for

[A]

that, because it's like trolling. I mean, it's a terrible way to use the Internet in general. I actually can't think of better ways to troll, so I take that back. But it's kind of wild because that's just like, you know, training. He's on Strava. I actually went and checked, and I was like, oh, he must be adding to his training. So, yeah, that's wild.

[B]

So I got trolled. Sorry about that.

[A]

But maybe that means you all got trolled.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sorry, guys.

[B]

Got a lot of messages from listeners. Do they know you had to listen to the Triathlon hour podcast?

[A]

Oh, that's so lame. Yeah, that's a dumb way to podcast.

[B]

Okay, Megan.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm pivoting my. Like, I'm displacing my frustration being like, what? Yeah, Dumbass podcast.

[B]

Oh, yeah, definitely no 99th percentile. Vagina.comSwap on that one. Okay, other one. We got message from a listener on episode 185 of the podcast. This is December 2023. So way back in the day, and Megan had a premonition that I was going to DNF Western states before mile 70 with an existential crisis.

[A]

Oh, this was a dream, not a premonition.

[B]

Oh, but I.

[A]

A premonition implies that I have, like, spiritual powers of some, so you do.

[B]

I don't know where else this could have come from.

[A]

It was a dream.

[B]

It was a dream. You talked about your dream in great detail, which we don't do on this podcast.

[A]

I don't think we've ever talked about our dreams.

[B]

I did talk about my baseball dreams earlier.

[A]

Okay, well, I had a dream last night that you were going to leave me. It was like, actually really devastating at 2. Kicker was I was like, david, go ask Grandpa in the dream if he agrees with us. And Grandpa, who I love, like, Grandpa is kind of like my dad. He's your dad. And Coach Roach is just the best. And Grandpa was like, hell, yeah. Amazing. And Grandpa was the kicker. He was the one that really did me in at 2am and I was so sad.

[B]

My favorite part of this is in the dream, you were like, was pouring champagne on me. Leadville, all fake. And would I reply? What was my reply? In your dream?

[A]

Dream, you're like, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So I mean, hopefully that's not a premonition. No, it definitely isn't for me. I love you more than anything in the world and I wish I could, like, you know, heal your heart.

[A]

I gotta go ask Grandpa too. Grandpa owes me one.

[B]

But go check out that out. It's like minute five of that podcast. It's very strange, very creepy. You knew I was.

[A]

Should we play it on the end of this podcast? Should we tack it on?

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No.

[A]

Why did I know that? That's weird.

[B]

It is weird. It's life. I honestly think it was probably a good guess. Granted, I had never done anything that I. To even get into it. Western states at that point, you had

[A]

barely done longer races at that point

[B]

show ability to get into it. Um, but I think those that know me would know predicting that the first thing I do is crash and burn and then eventually learn from it. Probably a good Way to think about it. Um, okay.

[A]

Maybe I'm gonna have a dream that you go back.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

What do you think the chances are

[B]

that you go back to Western states? Yeah, I don't know, Megan. I'm getting older all the time. Can't really run. I was given a bicarb bath to my foot last week. Week?

[A]

Yeah, man. We should get you a bracelet that has some healing beads specific for the plantar fascia.

[B]

Yeah, your. Your heart is pink. Maybe my plantar fascia one can be,

[A]

like, brown or tendon colored.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's all the news we need to say. Everything else is excessive. The influencers taking P is one is kind of fun.

[A]

Oh, that's a longer one. Especially peptides. It's a weird conversation.

[B]

Yeah, it is weird. Um, and I want to have a nuanced, like, comp for that. Let's say athletes who are not competing in what they're doing for their health. And so I, I, I. But that's not for now.

[A]

So do you have a little take to leave us with or.

[B]

No, I do not.

[A]

Yes. Shocking.

[B]

Shocking.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Question, answer. Anything to talk about before we get there? Yes, actually.

[A]

What? Whoa.

[B]

Wahoo Treadmills.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Go to Wahoo. There's a link in the show notes. The treadmills are the best. Hans Troyer just got one from Wahoo.

[A]

I'm so excited. Were you involved in that?

[B]

I might have been.

[A]

David's love language is getting professional athletes treadmills.

[B]

Hey, if there's any superstar pros out there who want to come coach, that's my selling point. I might be able to sell you a treadmill.

[A]

I need to get Tara a Wahoo. Yeah, she posted a treadmill video yesterday using a hypoxico oxygen mask, which I thought was really cool. And I'm like, let's get her. Let's get her a good one.

[B]

That's so cool. I mean, Jess has one, Amanda has

[A]

one, Drew has one.

[B]

Okay, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Hans has one. So, yeah, you do our contracts. I gotta get my athletes going on there.

[B]

So. Yeah, Wahoo Treadmills. Best things in the world. Like, every athlete who has says that it changes so smooth, it changes their life forever. So you can go to a link in the show notes. If you use code swap, you get a 400 super fan that blows it like 400 miles an hour and is, like, life changing for your cycle biking too. So go check it out now.

[A]

We probably just need one of those on our house in general. I feel like fans at that Rate causes like, you know, they fix a lot of problems including like sweat and water spills and spills all over the place.

[B]

You're insulting my smell right now in some way.

[A]

I mean, you did. You took off your shirt and it was like hot boxing.

[B]

Okay. I gave you a lavender pig. Yeah. Like, come on.

[A]

To harvest the heart from.

[B]

Yes. Come on. Okay. Questions and answers. I have a couple in here that you don't even know are coming, so. But not the first one. Here's the first one. I've been a long time listener and love to hear you guys dive into a subject that has been on my mind lately, especially after listening to Lauren Fleshman's Good for a Girl. I grew up in Colorado during the 1990s and I idolized some young athletes. Watching them set the world on fire was electric. But it was the first time I saw that a collegiate program could destroy elite athletes. So athletes that had issues post high school following the sport. Over the years, it's been disheartening to see so many high school prodigies are destroyed by the NCAA system. As Lauren's book and your own episodes have highlighted, this destruction is so often rooted in a culture of under fueling leading to the devastating cycle of reds and eating disorders. Now we're in the middle of watching another once in a generation phenom who I can say this. Jane Hendegrin. My question for the show is do you think programs like BYU have finally begun to shift their culture enough that athletes like Jane will actually survive and dominate for years to come? Or are we still looking at a system where the culture of the cultures will eventually take them out just like so many who came before them? I'd love to hear your take on whether the culture is actually changing things on the ground at these programs in other top places.

[A]

I think it is to some extent. I think, you know, I think there's still schools that are grounded. I think it's so coaching specific and I think athletes out there that are looking for college programs, it's like understand the track record of the coach in terms of how are athletes running post collegiately? Not just collegiately. And what is the like mental health and you know, satisfaction surrounding like the appreciation of running and all of those different factors. But I think Diljeet Taylor is the real deal. Like, you know, I don't know Dilg,

[B]

you don't have personal info though.

[A]

I don't have personal info, but she talks about it a lot. And a coach that talks about it a lot publicly is at least making it an important point and a conversation starter within the culture. And to me that is an important first place. And so I don't know where the rest of the places go. I don't can't speak to specific athletes health. But I feel like that, that conversation and the way she does it strikes me as beautiful and well done. But that being said, I don't know a specific culture.

[B]

Yeah. And overall the culture absolutely is shifting across the sport and it's one of the reasons we're broken records. It's like if you are in a position of power and you are contributing to a culture of, as this person puts it, thinness. I didn't read that. Because if you are, fuck you, you're gone. Like you, you cannot be in the sport anymore.

[A]

Well, I think it's also challenging too to some extent that like, like, you know, athletes vary a ton in body morphology and you know, how athletes look. And it's very, very challenging. Also at the same time, outside of like specific outliers, it is very challenging to look at an athlete and assess health. And I think that's where like sometimes these conversations become really difficult too is because like an athlete can look like quote thin and get a period and be healthy and a lot of that is genetic based and another athlete like, you know, might have to ruin their body to look like that same athlete. And so it's very. That how an athlete looks is very complicated.

[B]

Yeah, you definitely should never be evaluating based on looks. This is a behavioral, cultural process that we're talking about. And I mean it's basically a zero tolerance policy with people that are encouraging negative behavior processes because all it takes is a contagion. Right. Like this is a, you know, it's in the news a lot right now. But like all this takes is some cases because like what's going to happen is at these programs it's.

[A]

Are you comparing this to hantavirus?

[B]

Yeah, I mean

[A]

like there's some cases in the news right now, I'm like, whoa, yeah, oops.

[B]

But, but the point being it is contagious, like you know, an airborne illness in the sense that these are all competitive people. And, and like a lot of the people listening to this podcast, even if you're nowhere touching a college program, like, we're all searching for the best in ourselves. Right. Like, and in whatever we do. And if you, you have availability bias of people that are doing things the wrong way. And so you might find yourself going down those pathways without it being intentional, without you trying to contribute to those cultures. Or even wanting to internalize these processes. So if a contagion is allowed to spread, it is as bad as encouraging it to spread. And so the goal is to just constantly be having these conversations, constantly be uplifting cultures of burgers. And you know, all the ways we try to talk about fueling, even though, you know, we make missteps too, like we're trying to learn. And I think it's taking hold because all of the athletes that are reaching the crazy top level now are doing it because of fueling. So this is the most exciting part of all. The culture sometimes shifts from individual decisions in advocacy, but that is just the initial part of the process. Because the other contagion that's even stronger is if you fuel your body appropriately, you become a chance champion. And so some athlete like Jane, it's like given what her times are, she's obviously feeling well because she talks about

[A]

it too very openly.

[B]

These are grown ass woman times. And this is how it's changed. It's like we were talking about high school phenoms earlier. It's like, yeah, I mean, high school, like a lot of things can happen.

[A]

Well, actually, that was my point is I feel like the college system, I feel like on a whole is doing exponentially better than it was several years ago and certainly than a decade ago. Yeah, I do feel like high school programs are very scattered just because coaches are like, you know, often not informed. You're having conversations with younger athletes, athletes. And I think the tricky part is that high school journey often really sets the trend into college. And so an athlete could get to college and seemingly have not had a history of stress fractures yet. But that's a process that's waiting to happen based off of their high school behaviors that are then carrying over in their bones into college. And so it becomes very tricky because a coach could inherit a freshman athlete that is destined to have fracture after fracture after fracture. But it's not that college coaches challenge.

[B]

You should never look at, at the like outcomes is the thing. It's more the cultures again that we're getting back to. I feel like because you researched in college, you're very aware of like the specifics of what you know, the programs. I think it's much more about what is the culture and is that going to change in the future. And I think it all.

[A]

It has, it has and it will continue to.

[B]

And I think it's because the contagion that is most strong is the availability of top performers. And the top performers are all harnessing the fueling for top performance because you can't do anything else. It's the only option now. Now for the true top performance. And so you're always going to get other things happening. Right. This is a complex system. It's chaotic. But if we see what's going to happen in the real world, it's like, you know, you can scoreboard culture and that's the best thing of all because, you know, on one hand it's like we would want this as an endpoint even if it wasn't a performance thing. But when it becomes a performance thing, you can see how culture will self reinforce even with bad actors that might be involved in some level goals. So like, you know, we. We have to rely less on the goodness of people's heart and more on the goodness of physiology and the realities of it. And that is so fucking awesome because fueling is the best.

[A]

Do you think that breaks down, though, at the high school level? Um, and I think that that becomes really challenging at the high school level is I feel like the goodness of physiology. The athletes aren't training hard enough typically to hit that point.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

It's different.

[B]

The margins aren't narrow enough. Yeah.

[A]

And athletes are developing. It's very complicated.

[B]

That's why we need more education.

[A]

We need way more education for the. The high school level. And I think that's where the focus should really be right now. Like, I feel like college programs are improving a lot and we need so much more focus on high school.

[B]

Yeah. And everybody, you know, just get this message out in your community. Like, like we have enough listeners to this podcast that are involved in their communities that this message can get out to everybody. And so there's a lot of great people doing this work, but this work is for all of us. This work is not just for nutritionists or coaches or people with podcasts, you know, to. To uplift this message. That's like the coolest cultural shift I've seen. And this goes like, just for social media and stuff, is we get tagged in tons of posts all the time of people on their fueling journeys. It's like, fuck, yeah. Because every one of those posts, you know, if it's seen by 10 people, it's like those 10 people are going to be changing forever. And that's a good thing.

[A]

And I'm so excited for that. Like, it's fun to think about. Like you can have a role in this conversation and it feels like something in the world right now that you can actually make an actionable difference on yeah.

[B]

Like me and hantavirus.

[A]

Like, wow. Where are you going with that one?

[B]

I think the contagion analogy is a good one, Megan.

[A]

Maybe a little less so when it's spread by rodents or like really close contact.

[B]

True. I'm gonna come back with some hypotheses, Megan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're gonna see some articles on Patreon like you wouldn't believe. Okay, next one. You haven't seen this one. I frequently do a long run. On Saturday, I had her around just over two hours. Then on Sunday, I do a long run, nearing two hours. Why does my Sunday run feel so freaking good? Good. I feel like I could run forever. And this happens consistently. What's going on here?

[A]

I think it gets back to fatigue resistance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you agree that you're just activating your system and are primed more for Sunday?

[B]

That that could be it? It could be nervous system for sure. I think it's probably just fueling. My guess is this athlete fuels a ton on Saturday. There's an old theory in cycling training where the athletes who bonked had good subsequent days, good next days, like in the Tour de France or whatever. And the theory was that they finished. And this was back when there was under fueling culture in cycling. Cycling. And then they would just consume so much food because they were just like, I need to do something. And then they'd feel amazing the next day. So I think it's probably a feeling. And maybe just the week is stressful for this athlete.

[A]

I was just about to go there. I have a lot of athletes that like, work busy jobs and Saturday they're just hit that decompression point and are tired and then they feel really good Sunday. And sometimes I like modify, you know, put the more important longer on Sunday for that reason.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, the fueling of individual days improves adaptation day over day, not just over longer terms like cycles. And if you're seeing the signal, I would try. All right. Do your long run fueling on Friday before your Saturday. Long run.

[A]

Ooh. Yep.

[B]

That's the easiest intervention. See what happens.

[A]

You mean your long run fueling within training or outside of training?

[B]

Outside of training, yep. So like, you know, most people are going to eat more on their long run day. Just in general. It's kind of like I say, after ultras, eat like you're do. You've done a long run that day. When you're doing nothing in the following week, like after long ultras, because energy expenditure is elevated similarly. Really? This could just be a fueling signal. Try that once. See if you feel great on Saturday. If so, you can just repeat that signal. You know, I always tell athletes, like pros, I coach up, eat like a linebacker, you know, on this day. And just as a cue to be like, all right, all right, this is what I want to do to support performance the next day. But obviously that's a nuanced conversation. That's my guess here, though. I don't know.

[A]

I like those takes.

[B]

Maybe those cyclists were doing drugs in their off day. I mean, that's what, like Floyd Landis, right? Like, he got dropped in one day and then dropped the entire peloton the

[A]

next day, it turns out.

[B]

And like, at the time, it was like, oh, that's a fueling signal. Right, right. And back when nobody was having those conversations. And then years later, it comes out that, oh, he was actually. Actually not even years later. I think he tested positive the next day. Yeah, that's bad stuff.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Bad stuff. Okay, do you want to go on?

[A]

Let's go into listener corner.

[B]

Okay. But first, but first, John G. John

[A]

G. I love John G. Yeah, you're gonna have to take up the, you know, we're doing. We do, like, ads for John G. So you're on. You're on deck for the next ad.

[B]

Used to do ads.

[A]

You're reviewing the RD gear. That's true. I could just like, hang out. Yeah, I could crew you.

[B]

Well, they have so many pockets. It's just good for everyday life with kids.

[A]

I know. I'm just be putting cars and all the different pockets.

[B]

Oh, my God. So good. So j I.com SW actually now they have a new one. So SW and get everything you need there. This is your summer place for gear. I'm wearing their shorts right now. They're multi shorts.

[A]

You love them. Like, how many pockets are in those?

[B]

And these are the green shorts, not the ones that, you know, maybe you

[A]

should come back in the green shorts. Shorts.

[B]

Come back in the green shorts. Oh, my goodness. Megan.

[A]

Yeah. What do you think about that?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

The green shorts in a plantar fashion bracelet. That's what you need right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, I can see it.

[A]

I really like the. The trail short and it has great pocketing systems. I love the pace bra and the long bra. Those are my favorites. I wear them even when I'm not training. They're so comfortable. I just wear them around the house.

[B]

John G. Is the best. So go to jnji.com swap all right. Do you wanna get on the Listener corner.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

Let's do it. So this is another one that Megan's gonna cringe at, but I have to read.

[A]

No, you put this. Oh, I just see my name a lot in there.

[B]

Yeah, your name's a lot. But I think it's relevant with the hard stuff. And also, this is real life, right? Like as a metaphor. Every athlete, I'm sure, heard your story and connected it to some thing in their life or someone in their life. It's just the way we go through the world and you know, that fragility is so ever present in existence, you know? And yeah, you know what that reminds me of?

[A]

What?

[B]

What? What do you think it reminds me?

[A]

I knew it. I'm two for two. I'm guessing your things like the spank bank. That was the last one it reminded me of.

[B]

Been so funny.

[A]

I really should have said that I wasn't quick enough.

[B]

Okay, so here is the message. I saw Megan's most recent post and my stomach churned a little. I never shared this, but back when Megan published her first YouTube video debut, it changed my world. It was like seeing a course record shattered or a woman come in first overall at a competitive race. I watched it three more times that week and I still go back to watch it whenever I'm in a hard workout. And it sucks. I think back to the look on Megan's face as she gets ready to throw down on her last interval and how dang strong she looks. I channel it as much as I can. A few weeks ago, maybe a month or more, I was out running in Boulder Valley Ranch area and passed by Megan. I was having a shitty run. It's been battling low iron on and off for years and can't seem to get it right. It was right after Megan's last heart flare up and I didn't realize she was back out there yet. And she was. Was with that iconic stride and waved at me with the biggest dang smile on her face. And it brought me back to life. And I thought, hell yeah, she's back. I want Megan to know that she's inspired me, an extreme introvert, to reach out and share this. She, like she inspires thousands of other women to feel the same. Another person saying thousands. You know, I also am a spot where I'm contemplating quitting running and training for these ultras. After 10 years of doing it, my body seems to be rebelling back and asking me for a break in all sorts of ways. Maybe it's just some serious downtime and rest I need. Maybe it's another round of iron transfusion. Maybe it's just a week of burgers every night. I just want to say thank you both for all the love you pour into the sport, for inspiring us all to be better and keep going. I'm sure we can't know the full extent of what you're going through, but just know that all the love of the SWAT community is pouring into you. And back at this very moment, apologies for my long note. I'm now going to listen to the bonus episode this week, which I cannot even believe is available at the moment. Much love to you both and please let me know if I can ever help your family.

[A]

My goodness. That is so beautiful. Now I have tears in my eyes. That's like, that means a ton. And for watching YouTube, we're going to get director Cody fill In my, like, 10 by 1 minute jog, 1 minute walk back.

[B]

Maybe we tell the story, you know,

[A]

like, I don't want to be like, this is the thing is like, you

[B]

don't want to be the sick girl.

[A]

I don't want to be the sick girl. I'm like, this is even posting about it. I'm just like, I don't love this for me. We always make that joke about there's like a. Is that a Gen Z phrase? Like, I love this for you?

[B]

Or I don't know exactly. But whenever I hear that phrase, I'm like, all right, this is obnoxious. Honestly, I don't. I don't love it. But so we always say. We always joke, I don't love that for us.

[A]

I don't love that for me.

[B]

Yeah, you are the sick girl.

[A]

No, I mean, I'm not. That's the thing is I'm fine. I'm good. And that's like my brain just. And that's probably how I wound up running through chest pain since December. And I think at some point it's important just to be like, you know, this is part of who I am. And my structure of training is going to have to change and exist, you know, differently here.

[B]

Yeah. If you're able to do it.

[A]

If I'm able to do it. And, you know, these messages like this mean so much, and it's like, you know, to be. I mean, there's a lot of people out there. Like, I've had a lot of inspiration recently. There's other athletes in similar positions doing different things, and I've drawn inspiration from them. And so to think that someone could be in a similar position means a Lot.

[B]

Well, the reason you uplift people is that you have told your story, you know, as it's happening. Right. Like anyone who's listening to this podcast, you're hearing 98% of it. I mean, there's some of it that we have to keep for ourselves.

[A]

I mean. Well, we really told most of it this time around. Do we have any more today?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do we have any more stories?

[B]

Do we have. Yeah, yeah, we have a lot more history.

[A]

We have a lot more history. There's a lot more, many, many podcast

[B]

episodes on this, including the actual medical part of the journey. But, you know, you've had that courage. When they say courage, they don't mean you winning a race. They mean you facing the unknown and stepping into it with love. Right. Like, like that's what I saw you do in the hospital. You stepped into it with love. And I think love for yourself in this next chapter is going to be.

[A]

Sometimes that's the hardest.

[B]

Yeah, it's just gonna be accepting that like, this is it and it's gonna be okay. We're gonna figure it out. We're gonna skip a lot of fucking rocks.

[A]

Actually. I'm your rock finder. Yeah, you skip them. I'm not very good at skipping rocks. I'm good at throwing rocks. I just can't skip that sidearm is difficult.

[B]

It's okay. Yeah, I pitched sidearm a little bit in baseball, so.

[A]

But I find like you're quite good at skipping rocks and I enjoy finding the flat ones for you.

[B]

You're having dreams that I'm gonna leave you.

[A]

I'm finding the flat rocks for you. Who knew the flat chested rocks skip so far?

[B]

Your rocks are perfect in every single way. And everyone at the hospital now knows,

[A]

and everyone knows, but like, you know,

[B]

that's what's beautiful about it, right? And we're all, we're all stepping into it with you. You know, you're not alone, no matter what this path entails.

[A]

And so it actually is peaceful though, to be telling a story because it's like, you know, it's a story. And in some ways it's like I'm excited just to, you know, move my body in a different way and find out what that looks like. And, you know, hopefully it is some kind of story at the end of the day. Who knows?

[B]

Yeah, well, it's always a story. That's the thing. It's like, even if it's doesn't feel like triumph, right? Not everything has to be triumph. And when it is triumph, that's you know, honestly, it's less interesting in some ways. Um, but we'll see. We'll see. I don't want to say anything out there, but just know I've looked at some ideas for you looked at some. Maybe bike races. I looked at some running.

[A]

Yeah. You think I'll be better in bike races? I'm just saying. I actually think I'd be better if I just hung out in Z1, so maybe we should just go to Coconut.

[B]

Maybe, Maybe. But. But I've looked at some things. Things.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

Whoa. You need someone to hold the belief for you.

[B]

Yeah, hold. I'm holding it.

[A]

You're also. You're holding it. You're also. I'm getting an injectable medication that you're about to inject me with and I feel like that's going to magnify your belief.

[B]

And I checked it on Global dro.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Just to. Just to check it out.

[A]

It's actually $30,000 a month and we pay zero. Thank you. Cigna. Yeah, Cigna Connect is hitting us up over here.

[B]

They're canceling our insurance next year, so. But we might need a. We might need a advertisement from whoever makes a run. Anisept.

[A]

Regeneron. Thank you.

[B]

Regeneron. Oh my God, that's such a name.

[A]

I think it's Regeneron.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Either way it sounds good.

[B]

Regeneron. We want those big bucks for our podcast.

[A]

Apparently Recover till July, help us out and.

[B]

Yeah. So, you know, I'll put that in my spank bank.

[A]

It's one good spank bank for Spank back into the abyss. The words of the day.

[B]

Spank backing into the abyss.

[A]

I love you.

[B]

I love you and we love you all. Thanks for being here.

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Abyss. Spank bank.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

God.