313. Marathons v. Ultras, Fatigue Resistance Debates, Gene Editing Breakthrough, and Posture Impact on Blood Volume!

Summary

Some Work, All Play – Episode 313 Summary

Date: June 2, 2026
Hosts: David Roche & Megan Roche

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Episode Overview

In this science-and-love-packed episode, the Roches enthusiastically dive into a sprawling array of topics: breaking news from pro cycling on heat training, a "wild" study on sleeping posture and its impact on blood volume and hemoglobin, cutting-edge gene editing for cholesterol, and a spirited debate on fatigue resistance vocabulary. The episode also features listener Q&A on heat training in cars, clean sport ethics for age groupers, marathon vs. ultra training philosophy, and some hilarious (and slightly gross) athlete nutrition stories. As always, the show is filled with joyful banter, humor, and refreshing vulnerability—plus some memorable dad facts and heartfelt advice on navigating health setbacks.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Training Logs, Health Updates, & Compassion (00:01–03:58)

• Megan shares a health update: recently diagnosed with cardiac antibodies (her body is attacking her heart), something David had suspected for years. Megan now feels more compassion toward herself and is committed to self-care.
  • Quote: “You may have antibodies, but you also have a pro body…now you’re a neutral body.” – David (02:39)
• The Roches discuss the challenge and importance of quantifiable health data, and giving oneself grace during setbacks.

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2. Episode Roadmap (03:58–05:18)

• Topics on Deck:
  • Breaking science news (heat training, posture and blood volume, cholesterol gene editing)
  • Debates in science language
  • Carbs, collagen, and fueling
  • Q&A including clean sport and marathon vs. ultra philosophies

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3. Heat Training: Insights from Unbound 200 (08:35–15:02)

• Breaking News: Pro cyclist Matthew Beers (2nd at Unbound 200) used active heat training immediately after rides (5–6 sessions/week, 35–40 mins).
  • David’s take: Do heat sessions right after workouts (not standalone), keep them moderate; standalone heat sessions can be too much physiological stress.
  • Megan notes heat training can “feel like a double workout” and is seeing less buzz in ultrarunning since Western States.
  • Practical tips: For runners, simply wear a light jacket on a run, or do 30 minutes post-workout on treadmill/cycle in the heat.
  • Quote: “If you’re going to do active heat, keep it much more minimal, moderate, and do it right after training.” – David (12:03)

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4. Wild Study: Sleeping Posture & Blood Volume (16:06–22:10)

• Study: Does sleeping with your head elevated (6° tilt) increase red blood cell volume and hemoglobin mass?
  • Findings: 4.1% increase in blood volume (despite no change in EPO); all nine participants in the tilt group trended up in hemoglobin mass.
  • Practical upshot: Athletes (and sick or bedridden patients) may benefit. Risks include possible higher clotting (thrombosis) and may not be appropriate for everyone.
  • The Roches have an adjustable bed, possibly explaining recent performance boosts.
  • Quote: “This study shows how little we understand the body.” – David (22:06)

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5. Gene Editing for Cholesterol: Science at the Frontier (25:48–33:08)

• Study: In vivo gene editing (single IV dose) of PCSK9 gene (Verve-102) dramatically lowers LDL cholesterol (up to 62%)—effects durable for over a year.
  • Delivered with lipid nanoparticles; works like a DNA “eraser” rather than a “scissors.”
  • Raises ethical concerns about potential doping applications and the safety/risks for early adopters.
  • Quote: “Gene editing is going to be at the forefront of everything.” – David (27:07)
  • Megan’s analogy: “It’s like taking an eraser to your DNA instead of scissors.” (30:54)

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6. Fatigue Resistance, Durability, & Science Debates (33:32–38:48)

• Paper in Journal of Applied Physiology and a cascade of “letters to the editor” fuel debate on terminology: fatigue resistance vs. durability vs. resilience.
  • David prefers "fatigue resistance" (“it just makes sense”).
  • Megan laughs about a Friends TV citation in a scientific letter (Phoebe vs. Rachel’s running style).
  • The debate is partly academic, but underlines how hard it is to quantify and precisely define concepts in endurance sports.
  • Quote: “‘Fatigue resistance’ – I am sticking with it at all costs.” – David (34:56)
  • Memorable Moment: Scientific articles referencing Friends Season 6, Ep. 7. (36:26)

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7. Carbohydrate Absorption: Glucose & Fructose, Gut Training (39:24–46:46)

• Study: Combining glucose and fructose in exercise increases carb oxidation compared to glucose alone (even at moderate doses).
  • Mechanism: Uses different GI transporters; “transporter training” possible via consistent fueling.
  • Practical: Recommend mixed glucose-fructose fueling for all endurance athletes, not just elites.
  • Megan recounts losing gels on a ride—sparking a listener Q&A about whether one should “rescue” a dropped gel from a gross bathroom situation!
  • Quote: “This is a learned, trainable thing...If you practice it, you’ll see this can become your superpower.” – David (45:39)

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8. Listener Q&As

a) Gross Gel Retrieval Scenarios (47:00–50:55)

• Listener dropped fuel into a church toilet. Megan says she'd “go for it” if it meant finishing the workout, citing her medical training—David says no way.
  • Memorable moment: “In the name of carbs, I’m womaning up! … Once you’ve been in medicine, you don’t really care about bodily fluids anymore.” – Megan (50:17)

b) Heat Training in the Car – Is It Safe? (55:13–57:52)

• Question: Is sitting in your car with the heater post-run safe for heat training?
  • Both advise strongly against it (risk of passing out, unregulated temperature). If you want passive heat, use a bathtub and thermometer.
  • Quote: “Safety above all else—if you’re thinking, would people find this weird?–don’t do it.” – David (56:43)

c) Clean Sport, Doping, and Age-Groupers (58:39–68:49)

• In-depth discussion on Adderall, testosterone, and how/where “cheating” lines get drawn in recreational versus elite sport.
  • Emphasis on intent—health should come first, but performance enhancement for non-medical reasons is problematic.
  • USADA generally allows for retroactive TUEs (Therapeutic Use Exemptions) when medical evidence is strong.
  • "Enhanced Games" stats on Adderall (possibly as high as 62% use), stirring debate.
  • Quote: “You are not a cheater for doing your health. Just make sure you look up your medications.” – David (63:36)
  • The system isn’t perfect; compassion is needed for individuals making tough health decisions.

d) Marathon vs. Ultra Training Philosophy (72:37–82:06)

• Why does SWAP weave “speed” into ultra training, when the trend is to focus on lower-intensity work?
  • David: No special “ultra” physiology—if marathon/track training raises physiological ceiling, those gains transfer to the trails. Don’t get fooled by “weird” training and talent mismatches in ultra.
  • Megan (with a Dua Lipa analogy): “Trail racing is basically our sibling—the closer the training is to marathon prep, the better.”
  • Quote: "If you can reduce your 5k time by 30 seconds per mile, that will have the largest impact on performance over almost anything else you can do." – David (82:06)

e) Update on Addie Dog (82:47–85:24)

• Addie is still fetching strong at age 13.5, despite some limping and needing deworming. The hosts share their approach to canine joint health (Cosequin worked wonders for her).

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9. Listener Letters & Sincere Moments (90:27–93:04)

• Heartfelt listener letter: navigating loss and uncertainty while sidelined from running by a heart issue.
  • Megan and David echo the importance of letting oneself grieve, and keeping hope alive.
  • Metaphor: “Sometimes life is a big church toilet full of shit, and all you gotta do is go neck deep and find the beta fuel gel. Look for the little pieces of beauty in the shit stew.” – David-as-Megan (92:13)
  • Closing Wisdom: “Whatever size your bits are…they are perfect. Do not waste any time worrying about your body.” – David (89:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Cardiac Antibodies & Pro Body:
  • “You may have antibodies, but you also have a pro body. And like matter and antimatter, they cancel each other out.” – David (02:06)
• Heat Training Ethics:
  • “If you’re going to do active heat, keep it much more minimal, moderate, and do it right after training.” – David (12:03)
• Fatigue Resistance Science Humor:
  • “I tickle the underside of his taint. There’s a lot of that in science.” – David (35:33)
  • “Hardcore pornography adjacent. That’s how I look at fatigue resistance.” – David & Megan (38:07)
• On Clean Sport & Compassion:
  • “You are not a cheater for doing your health…compassion for everyone.” – David (63:36, 68:24)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Personal/Health/Intro: 00:00–03:58
• Episode Roadmap: 03:58–05:18
• Unbound Heat Training Story: 08:35–15:02
• Posture Study (Sleep & Blood Volume): 16:06–22:10
• Gene Editing Breakthrough: 25:48–33:08
• Fatigue Resistance Debate: 33:32–38:48
• Carb Oxidation Science: 39:24–46:46
• Listener Q&A (Gel Rescue): 47:00–50:55
• Car Heat Training Q: 55:13–57:52
• Clean Sport & Doping: 58:39–68:49
• Marathon vs. Ultra Debate: 72:37–82:06
• Addie Dog Update: 82:47–85:24
• Listener Corner (Loss & Hope): 90:27–93:04

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Language & Tone

• Playful, irreverent, often self-deprecating
• Deeply compassionate, science-based, and openly vulnerable
• Joyfully nerdy and welcoming to all listeners—no question too weird, no topic too personal

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For more, follow the Roches on Patreon and at thefeed.com/swap.
Stay curious, fuel well, love fiercely!

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[A]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday and I'm refreshing my training logs on this Tuesday.

[B]

Oh shit. Training logs? Yeah, we're doing that.

[A]

I'm refreshing it all the time for yours. Oh yeah. You bring me so much joy in your training log.

[B]

What do you mean by that?

[A]

I updated all the time because your updates in there are fire. They're so good. They're so funny. Also, it's like 24 ways to get you canceled.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm just trying to make you laugh every day.

[A]

You really do.

[B]

And I'm giving you like, ammo. If we ever go to divorce court, you're gonn just be able to be like, here's the training log.

[A]

Look what he's writing.

[B]

Yeah. The judges can be like, yes, you are the brains of the operation for sure.

[A]

We should maybe put a security code on it just so no one hacks into it. Yeah, I mean there's. I mean it's legitimately 24 ways to get you canceled.

[B]

It's actually very true. Have you read about the Claude Mythos? Their new model that they leaked out to just some people to show. Oh, wait. All of your security is not adequate for this next generation of model. I've panicked about that a lot because I'm that type of guy that uses the same password for everything as, you know, same.

[A]

Yes. And both of ours are very guessable.

[B]

Yeah. And we basically use the same passwords as each other, so we're very, very hackable. That's actually scary. Why are we putting this on the podcast, Megan?

[A]

I know. I was like, someone's. Someone's gonna try this out there. That's scary.

[B]

Well, hopefully no one has called Mythos Access that's listening to this podcast. But it is so fun to be in your training log as you come back to a 11 hour training week last week.

[A]

Yeah. Coming back from my heart feeling, feeling good. I created a training log too, because it's nice to be accountable for some of the chest pain that I was experiencing before. I was like, I need to document this. I need to make sure I'm not training through anything, even mild. And so now I get the gift of your wisdom all the time and it's great.

[B]

Well, I could see your training log and there was a moment last Friday where we got some health news that wasn't as good as some of the recent health news. We don't need to get into it.

[A]

But actually I Do need to read the response.

[B]

Oh, wait, really?

[A]

You have it up there? Well, I have my training log. This is how much I love going back and forth with you. I have it saved as a bookmark on my computer.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

And what you wrote actually on that was so beautiful. I read it this morning and I was like, there's some David wisdom.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

So this gets I Friday, I found out I have some cardiac antibodies. Basically, my body is attacking my heart, which honestly isn't that shocking. It's been five years. And I'm like, no shit, Sherlock.

[B]

It's been five years. Where I've told you that almost every month and we've talked about on the podcast a ton, yet you don't believe it until someone with a medical degree comes and gives you a test result.

[A]

I need something quantitative. What is wrong with me?

[B]

That's okay, I get it. You're brilliant.

[A]

It's been five years. And I'm like, oh, that makes so much more sense.

[B]

See, why do you need someone in a lab coat when you can have me with vibes and, like, the worst wardrobe you've ever seen? That should work.

[A]

I basically ignored this when you've told this to me for the last five years, and now I'm like, oh, okay. But I actually have a lot more grace and compassion for myself too, at the same time. And it is helpful, I think, for like, fully processing this whole situation. But this is what you wrote, and this is beautiful. You may have antibodies, but you also have a pro body. Like matter and antimatter, they cancel each other out. And now you're a neutral body. And like matter and antimatter, if there's just one out of a trillion offset between pro body and antibody, then that forms everything in the universe. I was thinking about you running that this morning before it was like 4:55am When I got this update, and I was like, damn, bro.

[B]

You know what I always tie it back to dad facts about the universe.

[A]

I'm like, you can take these cardiac antibodies and turn them into matter in the universe. Look at you.

[B]

So for everybody that doesn't watch as many random YouTube videos as I do, this is all about matter and antimatter. So theory, like, the fact that the universe exists at all is pretty shocking because matter and antimatter are usually created in equal pairs. They cancel each other out. But at the very start of the universe, the theory is that there was a very small offset, like one in a trillion. I'm not sure the exact number, and that's enough. That amount of matter was enough to form everything we see in the sky. So, Megan, that's you.

[A]

That's you.

[B]

You just got just a little bit more of that pro body, as I know right now because you're wearing booty shorts and a John G. Bra. You look really, really good. So what do you think about that?

[A]

Thanks for being pro body to neutralize my antibodies. That's true love in this household.

[B]

Okay, we have the best episode for you today. Megan's going to get back to our outline. A quick roadmap. We're going to start with some breaking news on heat training. Then a weird study on red blood, red blood cell increases based on sleeping posture.

[A]

This one is wild. And I was kind of dreading this science because I was like, david's going to have us sleeping at 20 degrees after reading this, but you actually were kind of already sleeping up on an angle, perhaps even the ideal angle. And I was like, leave it to David. You would optimize that.

[B]

I feel like we optimized it accidentally.

[A]

I think we did.

[B]

Makes me very excited. Then a trial on gene editing for cholesterol levels that could have incredible implications for the entire world of health.

[A]

In fact, I took this out of the podcast outline this morning because we just had so much science. I was like, I don't know if we can actually do this all. And I'm pretty sure it was the single relation, single relationship moment that gave you the ick.

[B]

You came over to me at 20 minutes after we had a little bit of a disagreement, got down on one knee and said, we can do the crispr.

[A]

Actually, I said, will you CRISPR me?

[B]

Will you CRISPR me?

[A]

Much more poetic. Come on, man.

[B]

Then a funny science debate on fatigue resistance, terminology from the literature, Glucose and fructose combination science. Possibly a low energy availability study and a collagen study, though I think it might be too much science.

[A]

Those ones were good. Those were the ones I was fighting for.

[B]

Yeah, not me, though. I want that crispr. And then finally, a Q and A on car heat. Lots of follow ups from last week's clean to Sport discussion Marathons vs Ultra training, and lots more.

[A]

So much good science. I had a moment this morning. It was 5am I was reviewing the science and I was like, I just love this. Like, it's really cool that this is our job to do deep dives on science and make jokes about it. There was actually a friend's reference in one of the science papers, and I was like, no way. Wait.

[B]

To the show, friends, to the show. Friends, you read these episodes, these studies, so deep.

[A]

This was also a letter to the editor too. So I was really going deep. It was not just the paper, it was the letter to the editor.

[B]

Okay, I'm already giddy about that discussion. But before that, a quick promo for the future feed. Go to thefeed.com swap swap. You get 40% off for your first order and then $10 back for every $100 spent. Means it's the best deal on the market and you need to go just purchase everything you need for summer because the deals on their website that go beyond that are bonkers right now.

[A]

Goes so wild for me personally, I've been loving being back to beta recovery. It is delicious. This morning as I was drinking it, I was like, this is expensive. And you know, I don't usually drain the last bit of the protein shake. You know when it's like kind of sludgy in there and I'm like, ugh. I'm just not really feeling it. But when it's like $6 a pop, I'm like sludge. And it's probably good for me.

[B]

It's a good principle of life, is just get expensive things sometimes. So you value them.

[A]

Oh, you gotta. You gotta go full investment on it.

[B]

I mean, I found that with coaching, like with, you know, one of our approaches is usually we just make coaching free or extremely inexpensive for people that have needed it in the past. And the weird part is sometimes when it's free, people value it less. And so by giving that, you know, it's like the anti beta. Beta recovery.

[A]

Cause I feel like there is some line between what we do and the beta recovery of coaching. Maybe like, uh, the feed. The feedway protein is the great in between.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Um, then I wanted to promote thorn iron so you can just go get iron there. On Patreon this week we did a huge flowchart and description of iron for athletes that has really resonated with a lot of people. Seems like it's helping people out. But Thorn iron is a great way because it's at 25 milligrams. So you can dose one or two or three based on your needs and you can look at that article to find details.

[A]

So you rested this week for four days for your foot.

[B]

Four days.

[A]

I'm really proud of you. Is that the longest you've ever rested?

[B]

I think it might be since I was like seven.

[A]

Are you feeling cellularly good?

[B]

Yeah, I feel really good.

[A]

Yeah. Like my brain's popping. I'm craving crispr.

[B]

Absolutely. In fact, I find I'm stumbling over words just slightly and I think it's too much energy. So as the episode goes on, I'm gonna just mellow out and things are gonna be good as hell.

[A]

You're gonna feel so good. Well, I went for a bike ride and I came back and you presented me this entire iron flow chart. And I was like, what just happened? And it was complicated. It went through each, you know, different ferritin levels, it went through transfer and saturation, and it was really cool to see the breakdown of. And at first I was skeptical, and then I was like, this is actually great.

[B]

Yeah. So Thorn iron is awesome. Also, first Endurance Multi V, which is just covers everything and I think is great for almost every athlete listening to this. Um, then finally, a little plug for Dream shot. So here's a message from a pro athlete I coach. I slept a solid 12 hours last night. Haha. I tried Dream shot for the first time.

[A]

12 hours.

[B]

And so this is the second pro athlete in a few weeks that has messaged something like this. It is very strange.

[A]

Also a very high level pro athlete. So I inherently have bias towards that. I needed that last night. I was up at 1am last night staring at the ceiling, being like, maybe I should have had Sleep Elite or dream shot or just a little bit of aid here.

[B]

You need to try dreamshot.

[A]

I do. I feel like it would be really helpful.

[B]

Yeah. So for everybody out there, go to thefeed.com swap so now some breaking news that's coming in from Instagram messenger, which is on heat training at the Unbound 200.

[A]

Okay. The Unbound 200 was wild this weekend.

[B]

What an insane race.

[A]

It is such a cool race and we got to watch a lot of it. I feel like Leo, our little guy, actually enjoys watching bike racing. And so we can have it on the background as we're doing like Legos and whatnot. And it's a really nice distraction in the parenting, like, toil of the day.

[B]

Leo doesn't respect much that we do, but he does respect podcasting. He does respect our training. Like, he's like, are you going running or biking? And then asks us what we do later. And he also respects when we watch bike racing on the tv.

[A]

He loves it. He actually called. He was watching the Giro and he called the Peloton a traffic jam. Yeah, that's pretty accurate. I agree.

[B]

Right? He does point out every motorcycle with great excitement and everyone's outfit. So he's like three years old. So the pink jersey at the Giro d', Italia, which is what the leader wears. That had him so hyped.

[A]

Yeah, same, same.

[B]

But he loved Unbound because it's the biggest gravel race in the world. 200 miles, full of mud and just incredible stories, not our area of expertise. So I don't think we have anything specific we want to talk about.

[A]

I mean, it is so wild though, when you look at the power numbers that they're doing there over that distance and over that kind of terrain and then looking at how fast they're going and it truly blows my mind.

[B]

That's probably how they feel about ultra runners, though.

[A]

Ah, yeah, that's probably true. But still, I'm just like such a fan girl of gravel racing. I'm just like, how is this happening right now?

[B]

Yeah, it is so incredible. But the breaking news is that Matthew Beers, who finished second place in this race, which is, you know, a career making performance, he's, he's one of the best in the world and has been for a while, posted about doing heat training, active heat training. And so I messaged him. Um, he doesn't follow me or anything.

[A]

I love that swag. Just to be like, I'm gonna find out.

[B]

Well, guess what? He responded within an hour, which is so exciting to me. It makes me realize how I'm still such a pretender that Matthew Beers messages me back and I get like chills in my spine. I run to Megan screaming. He messaged me because I wanted to find out what his protocol was.

[A]

I feel like you just edited yourself. You just crispered yourself. Changing from tingles to chills in my spine. Is that what happened? You're like, I don't know if Matthew Beer should be tingling me.

[B]

True, true.

[A]

Did I hear that right?

[B]

He might have been tingling a little bit from this heat training.

[A]

That's true. It is wild. Did you, did you tell him you're going to share this in the podcast?

[B]

Nah, he's chilled out. If he was sharing that he was doing heat, he wouldn't care about.

[A]

He didn't share the details though. This feels like like top level science.

[B]

He still doesn't follow me.

[A]

You're like, he's not going to know about this. He's definitely going to know about this.

[B]

He's not going to know about this. Okay, so what he told me he did is.

[A]

Okay, this is confidential.

[B]

Why is it confidential?

[A]

Okay, I don't see.

[B]

Why is it just a Heat protocol?

[A]

Okay, just share it.

[B]

I mean, no secrets. If it's a secret, that's a problem. That's his Problem. Not mine, it's not. What are you talking about?

[A]

I mean, I feel like it's different if you, like, personally message someone and ask and they share versus him sharing it broadly.

[B]

Okay, don't message me. Your heat protocols if you want to keep them secret. I talk about training theory. It's kind of what I. Um. So he did five to six sessions per week at times of active heat after his ride. So immediately after, and he would do 35 to 40 minutes. And so this is another vote in terms of the blood volume discussions we've been having in recent weeks that the winner also did this. I think it's basically taking over cycling to a certain extent. Not everybody, but a lot of people. And so this active heat, even though I might have gotten a little sour on it, I think it's more about the type of stress you're doing. So I strongly recommend, if you're going to do active heat, keep it it much more minimal, moderate, and do it right after training if you can, rather than as a standalone training session. I think if you do it as a standalone training session later in the day, sometimes it can just be too much stress and it makes the body get a little bit fatigued.

[A]

I feel like, for me, it often approximates a double workout. Just given, like, the heart rate context and how my body is recovering from it, it feels almost like I did a double threshold without doing the threshold piece. And that can be extremely stressful for athletes when you're thinking about stacking that within the broader framework of training. And that's hard, do you think? I feel like we're seeing heat training more within cycling, whereas we were seeing it within ultra running when you were doing it. And I wonder if Western states, kind of like, you know, when you struggled at Western states, people were like, nah, we're not going to do this anymore.

[B]

If I soured everyone on an entire

[A]

training intervention, you might have.

[B]

That is a science burn.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, do you agree? Because I feel like we were seeing so many ultra runners do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now maybe they're just talking about it less. Or perhaps I'm just like, like, you know, following fewer ultra runners on Instagram. I don't know. I feel like I'm not seeing it quite as much.

[B]

You failed so bad that everybody just gave up.

[A]

Actually, we were playing Candyland with Leo this weekend and he got. So he, like, happened to win a bunch of games just naturally early on. He beat us in Candyland. He beat us in Chutes and Ladders four different times. And then we beat him, and he started getting so sad and so existentially upset.

[B]

We didn't even beat him. I just got ahead of him in

[A]

Candyland and really far ahead of him.

[B]

Yeah, I got. I drew a good card. I drew the ice cream card. It was awesome. I was really, really proud of myself. That's the main reason I want to tell the story. I drew the ice cream card, but Leo started screaming, grabbed my piece, and moved it back, and I had to give him a long lecture on Leo. It's about the experiences we gain, not whether we win or lose.

[A]

And you're like, dada has lost a lot in his life. And I totally didn't mean this, but it was like the worst burn in the world. And I was like, sometimes dad ends the game halfway through. To which I actually, later on, I was on a bike ride, and I was like, I can't believe I said that. I feel so bad about that.

[B]

You told me I couldn't post it because it was too good of a burn.

[A]

I was like, well, I don't think you really fully understood it. And so at the time, because you're like, I got more than halfway through, Megan. Give me credit. Make it two thirds. Yeah. And so you didn't laugh, and I was like, man, people are gonna think I'm just really burning you over here.

[B]

Oh, I love it so much. So just a story of heat training that I think is relevant, and if it's the type of thing that you want to include, my suggestion nowadays is either to just wear a light jacket on your normal run, or after you finish a run, to do 30 minutes, either on uphill tremo or ideally cycling, because it's lower stress where you're doing it right then where your core temp's already elevated. I think it makes it so much more quality and adds to the endurance stimulus of the day, rather than kind of spreading out the stress in a way that's harder to adapt to. I think the thing that runners saw might not work as well is doing these big standalone sessions in addition to your normal training. It is just too much stress, and I don't think the body can adapt.

[A]

It feels physiologically easier to me, too. Maybe it's because my body's kind of already primed for heat from the first part of the workout, but it feels a lot easier, actually, to go into that heat session than it does to start it fresh later in the afternoon, and that's kind of nice. Mentally.

[B]

I agree. There's something about doing active heat where the beginning the first 20 minutes is the hardest part, but if you've already had the core temp elevation, it is quite easy comparatively, even though the core temp changes should be more beneficial. So here's a vote for that. And then last piece of breaking news. We got an email right before we started recording the podcast is that on Wednesday of this week. Podcast comes out on Tuesday. Wahoo is doing a flash sale 20% for their treadmills. So Wahoo kicker run, treadmill use code swap at checkout for their like $500 fan or $400 fan. It's so good. But a 20% sale is thousands of dollars and this is just their only flash sale of the summer. So Wednesday this week, get ready with your clicks.

[A]

The treadmill is so smooth. I actually miss it. It's been a second since I've been on the treadmill coming back here for my. And I'm so excited to get back on it.

[B]

Yeah, so that was breaking news as an ad, but I think it's important because otherwise you might not get this treadmill. And now let's get on to the most interesting study of the week. Maybe not as important as the CRISPR study, but very, very cool. Called did you know if erythropoisis is regulated by changes in posture?

[A]

And this was a 1000 word kind of like short piece in Active Physiologica.

[B]

I have to note real quick that the way I pronounce that word was very bad.

[A]

I'd call you out on it, but I was like, I burned him too much. It's erythropoiesis. You probably know that.

[B]

That's close. I read it a lot more than I say it and I apologize.

[A]

You know, it's really hard to pronounce things. Yeah, I struggle with that all the time. There's so many times that I'm after the podcast, I'm like, oh man, I'm googling something everybody understands. Yeah, yeah, we read a lot. We don't say a lot. We don't interact with people too much.

[B]

Not too much. Okay. So the theory here is that there's decreased central venous pressure which triggers renal release of volume regulating hormones that promote fluid retention. So in other words, if you have decreased central venous pressure, which couldn't be something from like hot tub can do this, but also having your body slightly elevated while you're sleep, so your head slightly elevated can cause that return blood flow to have to have more pressure up through back to the heart.

[A]

And basically how it works is the theory is that, like, the blood pools more in the legs during sleep, and so that venous return to the heart drops. And that's what the central venous press is sensing. And that, in theory, would raise epo, which as I was reading, I was like, ah, that's so cool.

[B]

Yeah. And there's apparently a past study that this group did found that three hours of head up tilting increased circulating epo, which is very, very strange. I can't imagine where this research might be taken, especially when we have this new design which had nine male participants and they did randomized and counterbalanced order with 5 weeks of 6 degree head up sleeping. So that should be like 10% grade if we're thinking of treadmills and then 5 weeks of horizont sleeping. So just regular.

[A]

And it's kind of funny, you just blew my mind thinking about sleeping on the treadmill and I'm like, I would totally do that. It's a wahoo kicker as well. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I've read a little bit about this study since. And people are talking about putting their beds up on cinder blocks. Right. If you don't have an adjustable bed.

[A]

We have an adjustable bed. And it was one of the best investments we've ever done.

[B]

Just wait till we get to the results. Because I'm starting to think maybe the adjustable bed was the secret to all of the success I had. Right. Because it wasn't until we got that that things got good. I thought it might have been carbs or the hot tub or whatever. This whole time, it's just that bed, man.

[A]

It was our sweet ass bed. We came a long ways from your mattress. You had a single mattress on the floor in college when I started dating you. Yep.

[B]

And it was a Goodwill mattress and

[A]

basically nothing on the walls. And I was like, what am I walking into?

[B]

If you're not getting your mattress at Goodwill, you don't understand the game, honey. People talk about thrifting. I thrift the essentials. I thrift stuff that comes directly in contact with my naked body.

[A]

Yeah. You should walk into Goodwill with one of those. What's the. Like the UV light just kind of. See what?

[B]

Well, I have been doing red light therapy, so. Oh, yeah, it's kind of light adjacent, and it brought that up for me.

[A]

Well, I came outside the other day and you had your foot facing up to the sun. I was like, look at you, David.

[B]

And then I bought a red light therapy thing from the feed. I'm feeling so good, Megan. Maybe that's the secret.

[A]

That's what that Is that is the secret.

[B]

There's good studies on red light therapy. We're going to talk about that next week.

[A]

I'm sure you won Leadville because of our six degree bed and your red light therapy.

[B]

I haven't done red light therapy yet to win Leadville, so I have to go win Leadville to prove it. Okay, so the results here, here, there's no difference in sleep or sleep quality, Interestingly, no difference in EPO levels. So that driver is tough to determine if that was it. But here is the weirdest result ever. Red blood cell volume increased by 105 milliliters and hemoglobin mass increased substantially by 36 grams, which meant a 4.1% increase in blood volume for the head up group.

[A]

And that was actually pretty wild. I was, like, kind of skeptical on this. I was like, big whoop. A 6% bet. It's like, you know, really thinking about that in practice. But then I went to figure, and this is figure 1D, and they showed the hemoglobin mass changes for each participant in the tilt group. And look at each of those lines trending up. And I was like, shoot, man. Um, so it is cool to see, and I think it's kind of cool to broaden it out and think about how this could potentially be used for interventions in the future for, like, you know, bedridden patients or patients who are really sick or struggling with anemia. But then also I'm like, oh, my goodness, what are athletes going to be doing?

[B]

Yeah, it is interesting to think practically, I think.

[A]

How is Tade sleeping on the practical

[B]

end of the spectrum? I do wonder, would you wouldn't like tilted head up type interventions causing blood pooling, also increased risk of blood clots?

[A]

Well, yeah, they actually said that at the end of the paper. They're like, be careful with this. This could cause thrombosis, especially in athletes that have higher hemoglobin and hematocrit values at baseline or people who are at risk for, like, sleep apnea or other conditions. I feel like it could be dangerous.

[B]

So what type of bed did we get? What's it called? I think it's a tempurpedic something. Tempurpedic? Just tempurpedic?

[A]

Yeah. I think I was gonna say tempur pedic and sleep number are like enervit and science and sport mashing them together.

[B]

But it's adjustable. And we sleep with our heads up slightly. And I think we do it mostly because I used to have kind of like choking in my Sleep. I don't want to say sleep apnea because I don't want to diagnose myself. But it wasn't great. And ever since we've tilted up, I've been a lot better with that. And so maybe this has helped. I don't know. Your numbers have gone up substantially. Your hemoglobin numbers are way higher than they used to be.

[A]

We also spend so much time at 8,500ft, I'm skeptical I included this. I left this in because I think it's very cool science and I think it's interesting to think about what are all the different things that could impact

[B]

blood volume, hemoglobin mass, and what decreases central venous pressure. So this might be seeing the mechanism of like water immersion. So you always say it's not just hot water immersion, but water immersion in general. That is something that decreases central venous pressure. Maybe there's other ways to think about central venous pressure that can improve these numbers. But hey, if you have an adjustable bed, we don't have a sponsorship, but I'm just saying I think it made a difference.

[A]

Megan, I also feel like you get great joy out of neurotically adjusting the bed. It's very similar to actually your bike seat. You tinker with that like in a single ride, you'll tinker with your bike seat like six different times. Yeah. And I feel like you do the same thing with our bed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes it's 1am And I'm like, oh, I feel like our head's moving slightly.

[B]

If I ever bring a multi tool with my bike, I will adjust my seat six to eight times to end up just where I started. So I shouldn't do it anymore.

[A]

I feel like in our rides together, I spent like probably the equivalent of seven months waiting for you as you adjust your bike seat in Strava last time.

[B]

Yeah. So I just love this study because it shows how little we understand the body. You know, I think it's so convenient to be like, this intervention causes this. We were doing that kind of with heat last week. But every one of these interventions is layered on top of a broader life context. And it is so freaking complicated because the figure that Megan included with this is absolutely obvious. Like, it is so clear that this is a real signal, whatever they're measuring here. But is this real signal additive in the real world? Is this real signal going to improve performance? How does this actually determine, like, long term physiological changes? We just don't know. So I think there's a temptation in science to look at each study in isolation. But this is one that, until we see it in the real world, until we see where the cyclists are sleeping.

[A]

I was just gonna say, until we see today on a 10, 10% slope, I wanna know more.

[B]

You know what I need to do.

[A]

What?

[B]

Slip into today's DMs.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

And be like, today taade, how you sleeping?

[A]

Be like, I'm gonna share this with our many, many thousands of podcast listeners.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Full disclosure.

[B]

No, no need for full disclosure. If I'm asking you about how you sleep in, it's gonna be on the podcast. Okay, let's get on to the gene editing study. But before that, a quick promo for patreon. Go to patreon.com swap swap. We have the Iron for Athletes tutorial, which I think might be one of the more important things we've ever written because it is so long. It tells you all the different supplements to take, when to take them, and when to talk to your doctors about it because there's a lot of weird scenarios in this world. So go check that out. But then also tons of training plans, you know, heart rate zones and lots more.

[A]

I really like that iron breakdown, especially because I feel like now we're starting to see athletes, Athletes push slightly higher levels of iron when informed surrounding blood tests and blood panels. And I think that's really helpful. And I very rarely see like, especially primary care doctors that are not well versed in endurance athletes. Sometimes those supplements are shockingly low and it's like an athlete's never going to budge their iron numbers, you know, given their already existing context and the low levels of iron. And so I think it's. I thought it was a really helpful tutorial.

[B]

Yeah. And iron gets back to the ultimate limiter for hemoglobin production and how the body transports oxygen to working muscle muscles. So yeah, that's good. And then here's a message. Bottom line again is thank you. You are clearly at the top of the coaching game. What I pay for Patreon opens up training resources that would cost a fortune elsewhere. You should be so proud of what you have created and given to the community. Lots of love from across the pond.

[A]

From across the pond. We love the people across the pond.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know what pond they're talking about.

[A]

We were sitting at dinner next to two people from the UK and Leo and Ollie could not stop staring, interacting with them and getting so much joy from them. I'm not sure if it was because of their humor or their accent or what, but it was a really cute.

[B]

What you actually mean is both of our small children couldn't stop laughing at people with an English accent. They were being joking. So that might be a parenting issue more than a funny story.

[A]

No, but they were. I feel like they were bonding. Like, there's something about UK humor that feels very endearing to me and I feel like in some ways, I feel like maybe we'd fit in better in the UK and maybe they sensed that. So I don't think it was the accent. I think it was the humor.

[B]

Yeah. That's why our little children were laughing hysterically at these people. These poor, poor people. Speaking of our.

[A]

They're going right alongside with it.

[B]

And issues with parenting. Megan took Ollie to PT. So, Ollie, 17 months, not yet walking. We've talked about that before. And what was the PT diagnosis?

[A]

I said weak glutes.

[B]

Weak glutes.

[A]

I was like, classic PT. But I was like, he's 17 months,

[B]

he has issues engaging his glutes. Just runs in the family. Apparently every runner is told they have weak in glutes and have trouble engaging their glutes. This starts young. How deep does this conspiracy go? I feel like it's a design flaw in the human body if everyone can't engage their glutes. I'm just saying maybe we need to rethink, start from square one.

[A]

Start from 17 months.

[B]

Start from matter and antimatter.

[A]

Maybe that's our problem. Maybe you didn't go to PT at 17 months.

[B]

That's true. Well, we'll see. Everyone cheer on Ollie. He needs it. Okay, now we're going to get on to the wild study on gene editing. It's called In Vivo based editing of PCSK9. So just a gene. Gene with verve 102 for hypercholesterolemia. And so what's really cool about this? It's not directly related to athletics. That's not why we're talking about about it. We're talking about it because gene editing is clearly a future that is at the frontier of everything.

[A]

Because gene editing, quite frankly, gets you off. Yeah, yeah, no, it does. I mean, that's a good thing, I think. Like, say that on that.

[B]

Yeah, of course, of course. But doesn't it get you off? Why wouldn't it?

[A]

Oh, yeah, it does for sure. But I think it gets you off more than it does me.

[B]

What was the book on Jennifer Doudna called?

[A]

Oh, that was so good.

[B]

It was so good. You can just look up Jennifer Dudna book. But it goes into the history of this and it's just fascinating to think, think we might be able to change how genetics work for individuals if we're talking about infusions like this or if it's germline editing, make it heritable for future generations. And so there are plenty of studies like this coming out all the time. So I wanted to highlight one specifically, but then also highlight there is probably a world where this type of therapy might be happening without clinical trials. And that's a very strange and scary world too. So we're entering a very, very weird part of human history history. And I think gene editing is going to be at the forefront of that.

[A]

Basically you're implying that I could see worlds in which gene editing is used for doping. And that is really scary when you think about it.

[B]

And there have been accusations already.

[A]

Yeah. But I think, I think it is complicated as we get into this. This is a single gene they're editing and a lot of things within the human body as it relates to like athletic physiology are not single gene based. But you could see a world, especially in the future as these therapies get better where like, that's conceivable and you

[B]

can also see single genes that make a massive difference.

[A]

That's true. Yeah.

[B]

Because. Okay, the background here, here is that persons carrying. Here's a quote from the article. A loss of function variants of proprotein SO of PCSK9 have reduced levels of LDL cholesterol and fewer cardiovascular disease events than persons without such variants. So they target this one gene because they see in the regular world that people with loss of function variance in this gene have these outcomes and fewer heart events. So the drug that they create targets that specific gene and essentially tries to mimic the loss of of function variant.

[A]

And the way in which they do it too. To me, I was like, whoa, that's wild. So they use Verve 102, which is the infusion. And it's basically a four hour single dose infusion, which when you think about that compared to taking a medication that lowers ldl, it is so clutch to go in once for four hours and not have a ton of side effects from this single dose infusion. And it consists of a messenger RNA that encodes a base editor protein and a guide RNA that basically targets this gene and does base editing on the gene, which is really clutch. And it gets delivered essentially into the liver via a lipid nano nanoparticle. And when you think about that science, it's like that is a lot. It's basically stacking like lipid nanoparticle science on top of a version of crispr. And it's like, that is so cool.

[B]

Whenever I hear nanoparticles, I'm just. My mind's blown. I can't engage in that. In fact, Michael Crichton, one of his last books, was about nanoparticles. And it kind of went off the deep end. It wasn't as good as his previous works, but ever since then, I've been on the lookout. So this study has everything that gets me off. And they did one infusion of Verve 102 at six different doses, trying to look at the dose response relationship. That's how they do these types of medical trials, to see where the optimal dose is, but then also to make sure that more causes more response.

[A]

And this was a phase one trial, so really making sure that patients are tolerating it, tolerating this, looking at kind of the overall response to it. And it was a well done phase one trial. And I think they're definitely going to move on to future phases, seeing the results here.

[B]

And they administered it to 35 participants with heterozygous familiar hypercholester or premature coronary artery disease. Man, these long words actually love in

[A]

the first paragraph graph, you just, There is a few that you just edit out. You're like, I'm just going to summarize this by cardiac events.

[B]

But with these 35 participants, there was a dose dependent decrease in this gene. Um, and then corresponding reductions in LDL cholesterol ranged from 9% at the smallest dose up to 62% at the highest dose. And the reductions remain durable at follow up with at least, which was at least 1 year and 15 participants. So durable reductions from this in LDL cholesterol, that is truly wild. And that being said as a caveat, LDL cholesterol is a complicated world. It is not just as simple as LDL cholesterol causes coronary events, but given this gene's connection to having fewer coronary events, it could be really interesting for the entire world of heart health, because there are a lot of genes that look like this.

[A]

There are a lot of genes that look like this. Granted, it's a single gene that if you turn it off, it has this effect. And so it's a very easy target. It's also easier than classic crispr, where you go in and, and you splice double stranded DNA. This is basically like editing the DNA. So it's kind of like you're taking an eraser to it as opposed to taking scissors. And that's a Much easier process when you're thinking about, like downstream mistakes. Essentially. Like you can think about the mistakes are much higher when you're going in and snipping something.

[B]

Oh, I like that a lot that you went to eraser and scissors. You went to like the kindergarten analogy.

[A]

For me, I'm thinking about like the pink erasers.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know, those long ones. I haven't seen one of those in far too long.

[B]

Yeah, they're very satisfying in terms of the way they feel.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And I could play around with those. Yeah. For a long time.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, just the world that we're looking at in the future is going to be strange. And so there are accusations of doping using this method. And I think it's more speculative. I don't know if there's any specific reasons that people think that.

[A]

Well, I would love to know. It's like, how, which genes are they doing it? Like, which single genes? Or potentially it's more complicated. But, you know, the downstream risks of that right now are so high that it's like, good Lord, I can't imagine, like, you know, being willing to take that risk. I mean, and obviously you should never ethically be willing to take that risk. But even just medically taking that risk, that's scary to me.

[B]

Yeah. Well, what's the world going to look like in 200 years? That's the big question when it comes to this type of science. Who knows what that time horizon is? Is it five years, ten years or more? I think this is a place where AI probably does have a humongous function because AI's ability to understand complex interrelations in our genetic code might be able to help with some of these therapies. That being said, the therapies themselves, cells have so many phases in their trials. Because it's such a dangerous intervention, you would assume that it is quite difficult to come to market. So that's why I think this longer term time horizon of saying 50, 100, 200 years, humanity is going to be in a totally different place. And this is at the front end, and that's why I wanted to talk about it, is just to stay on the lookout for this type of research, you know, because, gosh, I just wish, I don't know, I wish I was Leo's age because I feel like, you know, it's getting so exciting, exciting to see where science might be able to go and it might end us all. But if it doesn't end us all, it's going to be fantastic.

[A]

It's Going to end us all while we're sleeping at treadmills at a 10% grade. Yeah, yeah. It's being like, come here, world. We're pulling some blood in our feet in the name of blood volume.

[B]

Just wait till they start measuring it. Makes a difference. If you sleep with your feet in scissors, like, get out in scissors, you know, like full spread eagle. I'm going to be sleeping. There's going to be.

[A]

There's a percentage of our population that's going to be stoked on that.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. If that is the case, because I feel like spread eagle actually would improve central venous pressure slightly because it makes it slightly more distant from the heart. This is a very serious thought, Megan.

[A]

You're going to be like, my scientific paper is called scissoring. Hear me out.

[B]

Said, did you know? And then the long one, what's the did you know?

[A]

Is a whole running series in actophysiological. Did you know that?

[B]

Well, we need to start a new one that is.

[A]

Hear us out, hear us out. Scissoring.

[B]

Hear us out, hear us out. That's the Sushi Glory Hole song, right?

[A]

It really is.

[B]

Okay, now a quick, fun science story. This was an article in Journal of Applied Physiology called Durability, Fatigability, Repeatability and Resilience in Endurance Sports. Definitions, Distinctions and Implications. Um, I, for full disclosure, did not read any of these.

[A]

I read almost all of it.

[B]

I just sent it to Megan as a link. Because when you click on this link, it has the article, and then underneath the article article, it has comment letters. So this is when other researchers write into the journal for their response. And then finally it has a response letter. And it looks like it's seven or eight comment letters in one response. I'm like, that is truly my nightmare to have that many people take issue with what I wrote that they're writing in and saying something. And so I didn't even read what they said other than it, you know, skimmed a couple. But that just shows how fatigue resistance, as we call it, or durability or whatever is subject to so much debate and so much questionable terminology and all of this other. Another rigmarole in science. And that's why we basically stay out of it and try to look at what is the real world doing.

[A]

And I think they're all saying essentially similar things when we talk about durability and fatigue resistance. And I love that we've just committed to calling it fatigue resistance. And guess what?

[B]

Nobody calls. Nobody really calls it fatigue resistance anymore. But to me, it's the one that is obvious. So durability, this just means how much essentially power relative to your fresh power can you put out when fatigued. And they create a durability ability. A few years ago, when fatigue resistance is the perfect way to describe this, and I'm just like it. I am sticking with fatigue resistance at all costs.

[A]

I feel like the way that it sounds makes a lot more sense to me. Like, I feel like it just. It feels so much more natural.

[B]

When you think about it, isn't there ability about injuries?

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's the thing is like, I feel like to me, it's like the first thing off the tip, my tongue is always fatigue resistance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. But I read each of these letters, which is so funny. I was just like, I was going into it. It's like, I want to see the debate. And you know what? It wasn't so much of a debate as people being like, I like this. I'm gonna add onto it. And the paper had Joyner. So Joyner is like a major player within, like exercise physiology. People were like, I compliment his theory and I want to add my thoughts. And so I think it was a bunch of scientists being like, we want to get in on this good stuff.

[B]

I tickle the underside of his taint. There's a lot of that in science or any powerful person.

[A]

Well, sometimes it's like I tickled the underside of his taint, but butt one

[B]

finger but up the side.

[A]

Can't wait for this. Okay. My favorite though is there is one of these letters was talking about. Okay, we need more biomechanical factors included within durability and fatigue resistance, which actually makes a lot of sense because, like, you know, that's a big component, especially within the world of running. Yeah.

[B]

And nervous system is not just signals. Right. Where are those signals going? The signals are going to the mechanical, you know, system. Biomechanics. So how biomechanical system responds to the erosion of nervous system signals, probably by.

[A]

Okay, but they cited friends. And this is what got me. So they said, this is their quote. Two runners may reach this speed using vastly different strategies, resulting in different muscular demands and fatigue profiles. As humorously illustrated in Friends Season 6, Episode 7.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Gotta cite it. Where Rachel Green and Phoebe Buffy ran side by side with radically different running patterns.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Isn't that so I actually had to go and watch it. Okay. And I went and watched their different running patterns, but I actually never knew the last names of Rachel and Phoebe. Did you?

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

So this is what I learned from, from this scientific article.

[B]

Phoebe Buffet.

[A]

I know. I was like, that doesn't feel like her last name.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Interesting to cite friends on this one. I like it, I like it, I like it.

[A]

I mean, they have. I mean, when you're doing these letters to the editor, you also have a very limited number of words. So I'm like, they're going to take a paragraph to talk about friends. They are my friend.

[B]

And how are they running? I assume, based on what I know, Rachel was running normally and Phoebe was running funny.

[A]

You nailed it. I watched it, it was a five minute clip this morning. And I was like, I don't have time for, for this. So I watched in 2x speed. And I think Rachel called Phoebe some kind of like hermit frog. Which, very accurate, but on 2x speed was a fairly fast. Hermit frog.

[B]

I assume a hermit crab.

[A]

I think it was a hermit frog.

[B]

Hermit frog. Just going, no, no, Megan, we don't need to look it up.

[A]

Looking it up. Kermit the Frog.

[B]

Fuck no.

[A]

Kermit the Frog.

[B]

No, no, that's a. It's an alt pop song. Close. Megan, I'm not exactly.

[A]

You're like, I don't even trust your science.

[B]

I don't know what to make of that. But yeah, I mean, apparently that's what we're doing in science journals nowadays.

[A]

But their response, and this is what I loved, is they used the quote from Supreme Court, Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, which is, I know it when I see it, which actually refers to hardcore pornography. But they didn't say that within their paper, which was actually quite true. Like, I feel like oftentimes when we talk about and describe the features within fatigue resistance, it's so unknown that it almost is this I know it when I see it kind of methodology.

[B]

So you're saying it's hardcore pornography adjacent.

[A]

That's how I look at fatigue resistance.

[B]

Yeah. So Justice Potter Stewart said, I know it when I see it. To describe that as the idea that these amorphous variables, this is how a lot of the law works where we want to apply distinct rules to things, but in practice it's just made up by humans. And you are determining on a case by case basis. And cultural norms change over time. Similarly, when we talk about things like fatigue resistance, it's as our scientific knowledge evolves, evolves, probably we're never really going to be able to isolate it in a specific number. We're going to be isolating it more in performance trends, which is why we always are on the Lookout for trends and why. I mean, I understand the need for these discussions, but I think sometimes it just misses the real world, and it's not necessarily doing great benefit.

[A]

I do think it's kind of necessary, though, because if you're using different terms and deriving theories and conducting studies around different terminology, it becomes so confusing. And I think sometimes you get different endpoints when you look at studies. And so I think it actually is necessary. Necessary.

[B]

I think we should just use fatigue resistance. What do you think? I'm gonna write a. I'm gonna write another one.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna write a letter to the editor and be like, why are we having a circle jerk? You guys not needed.

[B]

And honestly, this. There are so many kilojoules being spent in this circle jerk that we're now measuring circle jerk fatigue resistance.

[A]

I'm just sight Hermit the frog. Look at this.

[B]

Circle jerk fatigue resistance. Not something I ever had on my bingo card for the year, but there we are. All right, here's a quick study on glucose and fruit toast. I think this might be our last study. We need to get some more questions.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we should.

[B]

We'll see.

[A]

But the other science is so good. This is a science I fought for.

[B]

Yeah, Megan, but you lost.

[A]

Yeah, I always lose.

[B]

No, you don't. What are you talking about? I've literally won nothing in our relationship. Almost.

[A]

I got down on one knee this morning, and she did. Will you crisper me?

[B]

Crisp the hell out of me. That was amazing. Um, okay, so this one's called exogenous carbohydrate oxidation is higher when consuming glucose and fructose compared to glucose, at least alone, during endurance exercise, regardless of energy status. That's title is basically the entire study. I don't know how much we need to talk about now.

[A]

Oh, but the rest is really interesting.

[B]

Okay, um, so the background here is that glucose and fructose, two different types of, you know, sugars that we absorb, but we absorb them through different pathways. So the theory has always been that some gut transporters can get slightly overwhelmed, especially if you're just taking in one. And so combining them will change metabolic profiles and possibly change how much carbohydrate is oxidized. But what's so interesting about this study is that most of that understanding has focused on very, very large doses of carbohydrates. Like, you need to worry about gut transporters when you go high, like above 90 grams an hour only. But what this finds is that maybe that starts applying very early for how we actually Absorb what we're taking in.

[A]

And when you think about the transporters. So the glucose transporter is done via SGLT1, and the fructose transporter in the. In the GI tract is done via the glucose transporter5. It's really cool because you can actually train these in the sense that like, like, over, like, prolonged training, over weeks and weeks of higher exposure via carbs and via the glucose and fructose sources can actually upregulate those transporter proteins and make you better at absorbing carbohydrates, which is kind of wild when you think about. And that goes to show the importance of, like, I kind of think about it almost as, like, transporter training in, like, the weeks to months and then like gut training in terms of tolerating the bloat and the, like, the distension of this as more of like a day, days, two weeks kind of situation.

[B]

Absolutely. I. My key word here is epigenetics.

[A]

Whoa. And you're like, these transporter proteins are

[B]

epigenetics based that there clearly are epigenetic signals going on because the. We are not measuring that directly. But when you look at the studies on gut transporters and how the expression of them changes over time when athletes have high exposure. So, like, if you measured me or

[A]

Megan, oh, my God, your transporters would be popping.

[B]

It would be insane, right? But if you look at where that is coming from, it is probably based on, you know, environmental responses within genetics response to this exposure. And thus you can change how those lines are inherited for subsequent lines, you know, within your own body, not, like across, you know, your offspring. But the very cool thing is you could totally change how this context works in your gut over forever, right? Like, my guess is I could totally stop this now in the rest of my life, I would be good to go. And it gets back to one of my big theories that started my whole understanding of gut training in the first place back in the, you know, early 2000 and tens, is if you look at people that were cross country skiers or cyclists, and they come to running, they almost always are incredible at taking in carbs and taking in fuel in general. And my theory is that, well, cyclists just do pastry rides sometimes, especially in the old days, where they'll have a, you know, a pizza or a donut or whatever during their ride, and they always are consuming a lot. Thus they have this type of epigenetic response adaptation similar with skiers. Whereas running runners often never get that initial, you know, bump to get that benefit.

[A]

I think also some of that is probably driven by training volume and that their training volumes are so high that you have to be consuming so much calorie intake to support that training that naturally you're going to have more of that on board as you're training. And I see the converse too, where athletes with reds or eating disorders often really struggle with absorption and GI issues. And I think a lot of that is just that their transporters are not practiced. And probably other like gut inflammation and other gut situations too.

[B]

And brain, brain, gut. You know, I think the way that the brain is tied to all of this and how, you know, the responders in the gut directly connect to nervous system signals under research. But it's one of the reasons that V as a probiotic has been theorized to be so helpful. It actually helps motivation very strangely. And we don't know exactly where that's coming from. But you see this across probiotic literature. So we're seeing a lot of strange connections here that are really exciting. And for those reds athletes, what's most exciting to me is you can get adaptations very, very quickly. You just have to commit to it. Um, and so let's get to the study design here. It took two women and nine men. So for 11 total in double blind randomized crossover intervention design with four study arms with a bout of cycling followed by 48 hours of a balanced or 50% deficit diet, though that ended up not being too important. So don't worry about that. Then 80 minutes of steady state cycling. Um, so the main thing to think about here is that the some of the groups were taking an 80 gram of glucose and some of the groups were taking in 80 grams of glucose fructose in a 2 to 1 ratio. That's basically the crux of the article.

[A]

And what they found was the carboxidation was higher with the glucose fructose group than with the glucose alone group. And that was at 0, 48 versus 0.39. And so carboxidation is, you know, when you're thinking about that, that's your ability to continue to push. Like, you know, as events get harder. It is so helpful to have higher carboxidation. Like that's the crux of performance. Then you also think about like, you know, that also limits GI side effects as well too. And so that's big, that's huge.

[B]

And it points out that this world, where in the old days pure glucose options might be something you look at like science and sport, isotonic gels are an example of this. It's. You shouldn't use it even if you're very, very low because of the multiple transporters, it seems like there's higher oxidation rates when you're combining sources. So that is just a vote for almost every source that you're going to get at the feed now nowadays has combined sources, either 2 to 1 glucose to fructose or something like 1 to 08 like science and sport, beta fuel has. But that is always the direction to go. You should just not do glucose only based on these types of studies that are coming out.

[A]

And then I think if you're above 90 grams of carbs an hour, that's where pushing to thinking about more of the 1 to 0.8 ratio is better because you're utilizing a little bit more of fructose to kind of offload some of those glucose transporters. And that actually becomes quite helpful from a GI perspective. Um, and so for us, like, the beta fuel gels are pretty clutch for that. But I wish like enervage just so tasty. And like me a mango enervit and 1 to 0.8 and I'd be a happy girl.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, what's also interesting about this, it also ties to muscle glycogen versus liver glycogen and where it's absorbed. And so the combination of carbs is where it's at. And just a vote on that whole discussion we had about absorption. This is a learned, trainable thing. And there are so many athletes that are just like, well, this isn't for me. And so much of the conversation that happens with especially within running and ultra running is like, ah, this isn't for slower people or whatever. It absolutely is. You just need to to practice it. And if you practice it, you'll see that this can become your superpower. And that's essentially my journey. It's not sleeping spread eagle with my head up as much as I want it to be. It is just deciding I'm going to finally commit to this. And once you commit to it fully, you see this change. And that can just be within your long runs if you want to keep it focused. But just doing that will cause the weirdest changes in your body that I think last years, maybe even decades, it

[A]

makes you feel just so good after a training day. Like for me this weekend, I had two gels fall out of my jersey while I was riding and it was devastating. It happened. I realized like they were the last two that I had and I was like, oh, no, this is for how I'm gonna feel at 4 o' clock today.

[B]

So you dropped gels. You didn't go back for them?

[A]

Well, I didn't know they fell out.

[B]

Okay, but this brings up a question that came into Patreon today that I was debating bringing up, but they really wanted us to read it. Should I read it?

[A]

You should read it.

[B]

Okay. Okay. This is kind of gross, actually.

[A]

Oh, this is. That's perfect for our podcast.

[B]

Repulsive to you, Megan. I'm very, very sorry. Okay, here it is.

[A]

Why do you think it's repulsive to me?

[B]

You'll see. I love you both. Hopefully you both enjoy this story as much as I think you will. Yesterday, I set out for my long run, armed with three beta fuel gels. About six miles in, I needed a bathroom break and stopped at a church that seems to always be open. Praise be.

[A]

Whoa. Praise be indeed.

[B]

Expelling the devil from my vein. Back to. That was a couple weeks ago. A callback. In fact, that callback of people saying that I, you know, the. The devil is trying to come out of me in curse words. A lot of religious people reached out and said that was cathartic to them because they've had people say similar things to them. So wild. Who knows what connects with people? Maybe this poop story will. At this point, I had taken one of my beta fuels. I sat down. I'm not going to read that.

[A]

You should.

[B]

I sat down, came to a disturbing realization. I looked at where my feet was and saw one of the beta fuels on the bathroom four. But I had two beta fuels left. Where was the other gel? I spread my legs, spread eagle, getting that central venous pressure down, tucked in, tucked in and peered through that triangle, barely visible underneath was my precious. What do I do? These are my carbs. I can't go without them. I still have nine miles to go. So I stood up, stealing myself. I can do this. I need this. I took aim, plunged my hand into the depth and said, no, fuck that. I flushed that bitch right down the toilet. I was concerned about blocking the church pipes.

[A]

That's actually a very. The church, man. The church is going to be fucked.

[B]

Maybe this is just tithing.

[A]

That's like flushing a super tampon down the toilet.

[B]

A tithe is giving 10% of your income to the church.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

That's 33% of your. Your beta fuels. This is. I actually think this is. This is great. Um, but I've used this toilet many times before and I never had a problem, though I've never flushed a beta fuel gel before. It went down without a hitch. I would love to hear both of your answers to this question. What do you do? Do you pull a Jess McLean and go back to the carbs? Bonus points to answer this one on the pod. I thought this one was too much, even for Patreon.

[A]

Oh, no, that's great. Okay, give me. Actually, I'll go first. I'm grabbing that thing. Really? Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, no.

[A]

Okay. But I can't. This is. The thing is like, maybe this is me having gone to casual Catholic, like, you know, Sunday school in. I can't flush that thing down the toilet. It's gonna. The pipes forever.

[B]

Okay. Okay. So this is the. Hear us out in actophysiologica. Next article. Hear us out. You arguing. Go down.

[A]

I can't sin.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I don't have to confess that you've

[B]

sinned, like, 12 times on this podcast.

[A]

I really have. I've sinned, like, 45 times today already, but I can't sin and lose carbs. That's tragic.

[B]

You have the sins that don't harm people, so don't worry about it. Yeah.

[A]

What would you do? I would for sure grab it.

[B]

Okay, okay. Assume that the pipes are okay. Would you grab it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you knew it was, like, super pipes, you would just go down for the carbs. You're just using the pipes as an excuse.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, my girl's a freak. I've said this. The gels are really necessary. You know, it's like once you've been in medicine, you don't really care about bodily fluids anymore. It kind of all washes over you.

[B]

That's true. And I guess it was just his bathroom break. It wasn't other people's.

[A]

I mean, the residue is there and people flush.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

Yeah, but the flush is not the problem.

[B]

Okay. We shouldn't get into this too far. It's too much.

[A]

It's too much, but do it.

[B]

No.

[A]

What? No.

[B]

Why would I do that?

[A]

I would definitely do that. That's weak.

[B]

I like carbs. I don't like carbs that much.

[A]

I like carbs that much also. I'm. You got to be strong. You gotta. Yeah. I'm womaning up over here. You gotta.

[B]

I'm just processing a lot right now about my wife.

[A]

I absolutely would do that. Not even a question.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Not even if you took this, like, if you took the Senate out. I'm still in.

[B]

All right, Megan, I'm impressed.

[A]

I'm in the name of carbs. I'm serious about this. All Right.

[B]

Well, it shows the importance of carbs, and I really need to.

[A]

What do you think Jess would do? What would Jess wwjd Sorry, Jess.

[B]

Sorry. Jesus. We gotta move on, Megan. You gotta move on.

[A]

What would Jess do?

[B]

What would Jess do?

[A]

You double cry. No, she's listening to this podcast right now. I'm guarantee you she would grab it.

[B]

Just text me, let me know if you grab it. I'm not going to ask you because I just can't. I don't think Jess would grab it. She would.

[A]

Definitely. She would. She. Backtracking 20 meters in a race is way worse than sticking your hand in the toilet.

[B]

Okay, quote of the day, right there. Should we do carbs and bones or get onto questions?

[A]

Oh, I really liked carbs and bones.

[B]

I think we should save it. It's kind of of the same design of what we've been talking about.

[A]

Yeah. And it builds on the collagen. These were the ones. Okay, so these are the two studies that I loved. A study looking at carb intake in a single day and how it impacted bone biomarkers, and then collagen intake in, like, distance runners and looking at how that impacted bone markers.

[B]

Guess what? Carbs matter. Guess what? Megan's going fist deep in the porta potty.

[A]

Okay, but the mechanisms. I'm going fist deep on the mechanisms. They're great.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're tickling the taint. 46 sins.

[A]

Now just give me some beta fuel.

[B]

She doesn't count as two sins because we say the word taint and we talk about the actual it. So let's double it up. Double or nothing. Okay, let's get on to question answer. Do we have anything to promote? We already did the Wahoo ad, so make sure you check that out. Just on Wednesday, it's International Running Day, interestingly.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that. How did you know that?

[B]

Because we're doing the thing at Lifetime Fitness, so.

[A]

Hey. Oh, true.

[B]

If you're here in Boulder, that's something to talk about at Lifetime Fitness, which is a really bougie gym here.

[A]

It's kind of nice that they've given us access to. And you know what? It is game changing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We've just been going to 24 Hour Fitness all these years, and let me tell you, Lifetime is really nice.

[B]

They didn't ask for anything in return. So Lifetime, they are in charge of Leadville. So the. The. The synergy is obvious here. And so I just, like, unashamedly said, can we have access to the club?

[A]

Well, here. This is how it happened is when my heart stuff, like, started going on, I was like, I really would love to go to a Pilates class or just like engage in fitness in a different way. And so I was looking up gyms in Boulder and I was like, whoa, this lifetime gym is dreamy. Yeah, it's basically like a spa. And we kind of need a place to work during the day and hang out because when you have a three year old and one year old at home, it's hard to do those things. And so I found this and I was like, do you think you can get me in?

[B]

And I may suck now, but past me was able to do some things that got us in.

[A]

And as much by things you mean winning Leadville twice.

[B]

Well, as much as I've always been, the cheapest option is the thing. Like, yeah, man, it's kind of nice.

[A]

Okay. We have hot. We have sauna dates. And then you go in the cold plunge after. There's a sauna, there's a cold plunge, there's a hot tub, there's recovery boots, there's a massage couch, chairs.

[B]

We're not supposed to. This isn't an ad.

[A]

It's not an ad, but it's a fun experience. You gave yourself shoulder dogs.

[B]

They would need to give us a lot more than a free gym entry for an ad. But hey, if you're in Boulder, they've been very nice to us, like, and they don't have to be, but hey,

[A]

also, the bougie gym is like, kind of life changing.

[B]

Well, the joke I made on the bonus episode that I might bring back here is, you know, when the guillotines come out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Our necks will be on the chopping block now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm kind of okay with it.

[A]

It's been amazing.

[B]

But on Wednesday, which is International Running Day, we're hosting a little thing there. So that was kind of the synergy. So that's how I knew it was that date.

[A]

I'm going to lead the run for you.

[B]

Yeah, you're going to lead the run for me.

[A]

As I. I know you're in a boot. You actually.

[B]

No, no, I'm going to be good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm confident now you're confident. I figured out a new stretch to do. It's game changing.

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's placing your foot at that 10% treadmill angle. You're like getting.

[B]

Well, you know me, once I figure once I feel like I'm on the right track, I'm good. And so I'm going to make one last ditch effort to get to Leadville this year and we'll see what happens.

[A]

That makes me so excited. Like, I want nothing more in the world for you to be at Leadville and for me to pace you. But my, that would be. If we could have one thing this summer that would be. My ultimate dream is to pace you. Like, all I want to do as an athlete is be able to pace you.

[B]

All you want to do as an athlete is pace me and go neck deep in the nastiest Porta Potty you've ever seen. An Outward Bound.

[A]

Ideally not at this. I mean, if we're going neck deep in the Porta Potty, we got bigger

[B]

issues than you're going to be bobbing for apples, just trying to find what gels people have dropped, how much you love carbs. Okay, so question. Answer time. I wanted to get to questions a little earlier in this episode because it's been too late in the past.

[A]

We've been going the science recently. Yeah, it's been fun.

[B]

So here's the first one. I have a question that's a bit out there. If I don't have access to heat training facilities, would it be a good idea to park my car in the sun once I finish a run? I. So once I get finished run, I get in the car, turn the heater on on my way home. Or is that a terrible idea? Thank you so much.

[A]

I feel like a car sauna is an interesting idea if you're parked. I feel like the idea of just driving around town while you're in a car sauna, potentially a little dizzy, seems like maybe not the best idea.

[B]

Yeah, no, I think this is really, really risky.

[A]

I feel like this is very risky. Cause you don't know the temperature, like, you know, the whole, like getting in after the run. And then what if you pass out? Operating heavy machinery, that's just like, don't do it.

[B]

Yeah. And what if you pass out?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

You know, like, if you pass out. The. The. The problem is, unlike some other options, this is a little bit of a frog and boiling water situation where you could get in and feel relatively comfortable and find yourself, like, falling asleep or something. And if you do, you might just, like stay asleep forever. Um.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And passive heat isn't that important. Like, if. If this was incredibly important, I'd be like, hey, wink, wink, don't do it. But seriously, don't do it.

[A]

Don't. Don't drive around. I could see a world if they change this and they're like, okay, I'm gonna stay in the car. I'm gonna drive myself home, then I'm gonna turn the heater on, then I'm gonna take a zoom call from the car. Would your answer be different?

[B]

Yes. No. No. Actually, no. No, that's the wrong answer. No, it wouldn't. Don't do that.

[A]

Yeah, I guess it's unregulated heat training that is just to replicate. Yeah. Yeah. And you're also locked in a car.

[B]

Meghan wants people to go in a running car with the heat on. In the garage.

[A]

No.

[B]

For the sa. Improve hemoglobin mass. Because if you're in.

[A]

Oh, yeah, it's carbon monoxide rebreathing and the weight of death.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. In the same way that smokers have higher hematocrit. Yeah, don't do either of those. In other words, blood volume is not that important. And so safety above all else. That goes with any type of heat training. If you start to be like, would people think this is weird? That is probably a sign that they are. You are thinking it is unsafe. And so in the rare moment, usually I do not care what any. Anybody thinks. But if you're in one of those things where, ah, this is just strange, maybe don't do it. And that gets back to, yes, you might not heat heat training facilities or passive heat. You do have the capability for active heat. So you can just wear a jacket or something. Just do the lightest stimulus. But be careful with stuff like this. Yes, there are stories of athletes doing this to success, but that has nothing to do with their success. It's also not that hot, so just don't mess with it. It's. That's the problem. It's like, not that hot. So you're not getting a ton of benefits. But it's also at the level that you could pass out in there or fall asleep in there, and no one's coming for you, so just be careful.

[A]

And I feel like, in terms of home remedies for passive heat, I would much rather a bathtub with a thermometer to understand, like, what exact temperature you're doing. Something that you could replicate easier. And I think that's a better DIY strategy.

[B]

Okay, Megan. So spread eagle elevated at 10% grade. And sauna blanket.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

Which sauna blankets are just like, heated blankets that hold everything in, Kind of like the blankets you get after marathon.

[A]

Yeah. Our couch would never be the same if you did that.

[B]

Yeah. And then there's a lot of, I don't know Fluids around there.

[A]

Anyway, sonic blankets actually kind of scare me. It's like I feel like I'm like cooking myself like a burrito. And, you know, there's actually studies on them. They seem like they're. They're reasonable, but just the mechanism of it scares me a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, I wasn't able to find any on blood volume and sauna blankets. Maybe I missed them. We got a question on this. I'm unsure of that Intervention. I think usually the bath is the way to go. Just make sure you have a thermometer. If you don't have a thermometer, anything that's unregulated can be very unstable.

[A]

Oh, my God. Our water temperature at home is probably like 110 degrees.

[B]

Yeah, probably even higher.

[A]

It might even be higher than that.

[B]

We should turn it down. Okay, now we got a number of messages about clean sport. Do you want to read these? Should I? I mean, do you think I should read them?

[A]

Yeah, let's do one and we can kind of summarize it within. We got so many messages about our campaigns, discussion on all different sides. People being like, you know, of course rules are rules. Like, why is this even a conversation when rules are rules? And then other people being like, you know, I'm in my 60s. My longevity and aging and how I think about this are very important to me. Like, I agree with Cam. And we got so many different perspectives on it. Yeah.

[B]

And I think one reason these conversations need to have that ha happen out in the open is that if they don't, people can be made to feel like cheaters just for living their lives and addressing their health. And there are some important caveats that we wanted to follow up. So here's a message from a listener. I hope you haven't been inundated with comments about clean sport and doping after this week's episode. If you, if you have, I hope they are like me, asking questions of curiosity. So first clean sport, period. But also first, treat your health problem. I think this is summarizing my description. Uh, I've always wondered how we deal with non competitive runners in clean sport. I'm thinking of people who will not be placing in a race and if they do, it is small, local race or age group placement. For example, I came in second in my first marathon ever, 10 years ago, a second of two, and I was 90 minutes behind the person who came in first in my age group. So really I have a metal and love it, but it's more of a laugh than anything else. I am slow I don't worry about contamination of my supplements on the doping front. I might worry from a WTF front. Are they putting in them? And how do we deal with people like me who might take medications that would need a tu? So where's the line when people need to start thinking about these things? Honestly, it makes me feel like there are two types of doping. One, intentional taking of drugs for the purpose of improving performance. And I'm not going to read that's

[A]

a sin right there.

[B]

Maybe they have a very intense feeling on that is the summary. Two, drugs that have legitimate medical uses, that have some performance enhancing benefits, but 99% of people are using them medically. And the only people who should worry are the pointy end of competition. I guess there's also three, contamination, which only applies to the elites. So the question, when does it become unclean for these medical drugs for recreational athletes? And what happens when someone is taking Adderall and ends up taking an age group place out of nowhere? Is that doping? Is there me? Are there mechanisms for people like this not to feel like scammers?

[A]

This is a great question. I think maybe I start here with the Adderall example of there's a lot of people on Adderall within the general population. It's a very effective treatment for adhd. Add.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And even, you know, you think about, like, the percentage of people that are taking it, it's quite high.

[B]

And remember the Enhanced Games, I was

[A]

actually just about to go there. So the Enhanced Games released what percentage of people were taking different kinds of drugs? Most people were on testosterone. There were some smaller uses of epo. And then actually there's a substantial percentage. I think it was like in a 30% range of Adderall. Actually, I think it was 62, 62% taking Adderall.

[B]

I think it was.

[A]

That's really high.

[B]

That's kind of my number recall. So who knows?

[A]

Yeah. This is just. I mean, we looked at this literally for 15 seconds. I trust that. Remember, we were talking about this and we're like, that's a substantial amount of people taking Adderall.

[B]

Yeah. So clearly there are some performance benefits, but also it is prescribed, like to millions and millions of people for need. And if those people don't take it, their quality of life like zeros out. And it is not so performance enhancing that everybody's just taken Adderall or anything. And so I like the way that they separate this. On one hand you have intentional taking of, like, drugs, drugs for performance. On the other hand you have drugs for legitimate medical uses. And so here is where the problem lies. So many of the people that wrote in, especially the aging people that got back to the end of this listener's question, that, you know, how do you not feel like scammers? They wrote in feeling like scammers because they're treating their health. And the problem here is that the examples that we are seeing are not people that are treating their health. They are always people that are taking it for intentional performance benefit. And that is complicated, for sure. But like, I, I don't want to talk about individuals, but the example that started this whole conversation in the first place is one that is clearly performance enhancing. Right. Like, it is so obviously performance dancing is not someone that is just treating their health. And so our reason of saying health first is that, yes, if you were an elite athlete, health first becomes a very, very complicated conversation because you need to go through this process. But even for elite athletes, um, especially in trails, what USADA will say when you talk to them, if you're taking something like Adderall, is essentially, don't sweat it. Thanks for telling us. If you get tested, tell us and apply for a retroactive Tue. Am I allowed to say that?

[A]

Right? Yeah, we can say that. And the retroactive Tue processes are actually fairly straightforward. And honestly, USADA is incredible on this. Like, USADA obviously takes a very hard stance on clear performance enhancing uses. But when an athlete is taking Adderall and has documented case reports, you know, from a physician, that they need this for their mental health, they need this for add, they need this for adhd, you can get a retroactive tue, and it's done in a way that is not entirely disruptive to an athlete. It's. And so, like, there are situations like USADA actually does a great job with this, of making sure that the retroactive Tues are available.

[B]

Yeah, but, you know, but of course it's stressful.

[A]

It's very stressful.

[B]

Yeah, it's very stressful. And sometimes, you know, there's athletes that get busted for something totally random treating their health that has nothing to do with performance. And sometimes there's leniency and sometimes there's not. I.

[A]

You. That's actually a great, that's actually a great point. Is like, you know, take spironolactone, which can be an acne medication. Like, that's also used as a masking agent. And if you're using it as an acne medication, sometimes you cannot, and actually almost entirely, you cannot get a retroactive Tue for That so it really depends on the drug and the medication. And I think this is where like awareness of the system matters.

[B]

Yeah. And just intent matters. Honestly, like it's so hard because every time these conversations happen, it makes people feel like cheaters. And you are not a cheater for doing your health. Just make sure you look up your medications. There's a website called global droid.com where you can just search them, understand where you're coming from and go through like the emailing about the TUE process. Usually you'll get reassurance and that is okay. And if not, if we're starting to talk about like hormone replacement therapy, where we're talking about testosterone. Yes. That becomes a different world. And testosterone is a performance enhancing drug

[A]

for both men and women. Yes.

[B]

And is very performance enhancing. And so that does change the competitive context because, you know, but where that becomes trickier.

[A]

So Adderall to me is clear. It's like, you know, there's a clear medical use for it. It's not that performance enhancing. There's retroactive TUEs. You know, here's. Give me a 60 year old athlete who's competing in an age group who wants to take testosterone. What do you do about that?

[B]

Well, that's where it gets complicated.

[A]

That's where it gets very complicated.

[B]

Because, you know, there are no provisions in the clean support code. And I think it goes to. If that happens. Yeah, you have to advocate for it to be included in some sort of like waiver process because otherwise I don't

[A]

think you can though.

[B]

Well, the point. Not.

[A]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yes. Not in the current system.

[B]

I'm saying the system itself has to change because the system matters. Right. Like the system is important. And the problem becomes, if you say, oh, well, we're just going to look the other way, it means that everybody above 60 has to play that game if they also care about those things. And because, you know, we don't want to be ageist. And not being ageist doesn't mean saying take whatever you want if you're 65. It means that we need to figure out how to level the playing field at 65 as well. In the same way we care about it for elite athletes because it matters just as much to those individuals.

[A]

We should have the masters enhanced games.

[B]

Well, no, because again, the. These are examples of health treatment. And so that's where it gets a little bit complicated. It's not. No one's doing it for performance.

[A]

I mean, I mean, yes, obviously there's actually probably a substantial amount of people that are doing it for performance. And that's where it's tricky, you know, And.

[B]

And so that's the problem is, like, yes, intent matters, but when it comes to the. Really, the drugs that are much more serious for performance, where do you even draw those lines? There needs to be a whole system in place if that's gonna matter. And if not, then it's not that, like, you're a scammer or anything like that at all. We still want you to get maximum joy from athletics, but at that point, like, it's just understanding that, yeah, there's a reason it's against the rules in that context. And so there's a difference everything. And I think a lot of the conversations are like, they want to look for a binary system, a one and zero achievement and not cheating. And it is all so much more complicated when you're talking about aging athletes and health. And so, you know, clean sport, always, it's the only thing that makes sport sport. Um, but we don't want to say just with health issues or aging, that it means, like, you know, your career's over. It just means you probably have to go through a process and think about it more. Because if you act like it's not, then, you know, it just becomes an, Like, a slightly uneven playing field. And in the same way. Way that, like, some athlete who's never gonna be tested but will win races, we're like, of course they can't dope. Um, like, that's. That's obviously wrong. Um, I think it's still, like, we need to be careful about how we have these conversations even while we're, you know, wanting to uplift health.

[A]

So this situation with campaigns has, quite frankly, blown up everywhere. Like, I see it all over the Internet. It's all over the podcast. It's. Do you think this is going to be a catalyst for change, to allow some of this, like, you know, to start talking about different criteria, different eligibility, a waiver for. For athletes, you know, that are aging. Do you think it's gonna push us in that direction, or do you think it's just gonna kind of fizzle out and we're gonna have the same system we always have?

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. It depends who's advocating for it, I guess. Also, what USADA wants their role to be here, because they're not also, but

[A]

they probably don't wanna take a role in this because that's incredibly complicated.

[B]

I've never heard of tests of aging runners. I've heard of them in triathlon where they have tips, usually, and then they go test that athlete. Um, but I haven't heard of it in running, so I. I just don't know. And. And the hard part here is there's just no satisfying answer. You know, like, the reason I always say health first, as the little caveat here, is I don't want anyone to sacrifice their health for the sake of, you know, this abstract concept of clean sport applied without discretion.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, it's so much more complicated than that. But all, like, levels matter. And so I want everyone to also feel like their performance matters. And so if you're saying that, you're also saying that clean sport matters for everybody. And, you know, so it's just so hard to develop a satisfying answer, which

[A]

is, well, you know what? You said that so.

[B]

Well, I don't know.

[A]

That was beautiful.

[B]

Just compassion for everybody. Like, no matter where you're at out there, like, you know, life's complicated, and these decisions are complicated. The next message we got on this is even more important in some ways because it's very direct. It talks about their experience with hrt. Um, I believe this is a female athlete who says, we are all just trying to be the best versions of ourselves, and to watch our bodies we can, when we could do something, shouldn't be the norm. Um, I guess what really fired me up was the next subject you talked about with supplementing with lactate. So this was the lact exogenous lactate science discussion we had. Not saying to do it or talking about it, but just talking about the science of it.

[A]

Actually saying that it. It scared me, and it still scares me is like, I don't want that to be the next frontier of our sport, that to compete at the top level, you have to be taking in exogenous lactate. That sounds like a nightmare. It sounds like it's gonna taste disgust, whatever, however they used to deliver it. And I just don't want that to be the world of sport.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I get that. But, like, we felt the same way about ketones, and lactate feels different.

[A]

Like, lactate feels like your ketones feel like it's acting on cellular processes that are downstream. Lactate feels like it's directly in the stream.

[B]

Just because you're not comfortable with it doesn't mean.

[A]

I know, I know, I know. And I guess I was uncomfortable. Like, you know, I'm comfortable with ketones initially, and I've kind of changed my stance on them, mostly because they don't seem to. To be like, you know, the Million dollar.

[B]

And there's no health downside of it. In fact, glaciate may be good for health. We don't know. It could be bad for health. Um, we're not messing with it at all at this point. But to finish their question here, I don't really see the difference. I actually don't even see the difference between that and BPC157, which is also naturally occurring in the body and doing great things physically for people. Um, it seems like it's okay to take performance enhancing supplements as long as people in charge say it's okay. But in truth, all the stuff that we're talking about, none of it is natural. So bicarb, no Meo Etc. It's so crazy to me that a 50 year old man is trying to do his best to stay healthy and vital, but the younger generation is raking him over the coals. I don't think people are raking him over the coals. I mean people are, they are kind of. That's just the Internet. Yeah, I mean I think that people are.

[A]

And that's.

[B]

Well, we aren't for sure.

[A]

But imagine like if we were Cam and being like, you know, in that position, people legitimately are doing that to him and it's like, you know, I feel like we could have a much more civilized discussion here.

[B]

That's why everything needs to be compassionate. It's like even the really serious conversations, like, I don't think this matters, but it's not as serious as the doping conversations that are happening of the people that put money on the table solely from this. Right. In that competitive aspect. But even in that context, we are always arguing for compassion. This world is complicated. We do not know the full context of anyone's experience ever about anything. And so you can kind of imagine the argument they're making here. And that's where it gets back to performance enhancing versus health. Just to simplify the a little bit because we don't have any answers.

[A]

But also we have to have some delineation between like, you know, and this is where like, you know, we have, you know, wada, usada, they have decided that bicarb, nomium, those things are okay and we need to have some kind of clear delineation otherwise it all gets super messy. And so like, even though those, even though those are performance enhancing things, we've decided that. And I think that decision and that delineation is so important in a world in which if it were more gray than that, the, it would just be the slipperiest Performance slope ever.

[B]

Well. And yeah, I mean, there's a whole system that's designed to address these questions.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like if they're like a good example is if there was something that was a steroid that was not banned yet, it would still be illegal to take it. Under the current system, there isn't just like a. They say it's right or wrong. There's an obvious delineation here based on their rule set. And if you took it even before it was illegal, you would be penalized if they ever went and retested your blood. But that would never apply to broccoli sprouts or bicarb or any of this. Like, it's such a more clear system if you understand what. What's going on. And on that example, like a 2:39 marathon at age 58, it. It is performance.

[A]

Oh, that's bonkers.

[B]

And I don't want to talk about.

[A]

Angel said. That's wild. Yeah.

[B]

And the point just being like that is a performance enhancing use, like, clearly. And so, you know, it's not the best example of this. And I don't think. And I think a lot of the people that are worried about feeling like cheaters or feeling attacked by that, this doesn't apply to you. This isn't.

[A]

But you also just said that this applies across everything. And so that you just broke yourself down with that.

[B]

Okay, Megan, I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

[A]

That stuff is all hard. Have compassion for me. Have compassion. And you know the thing.

[B]

We're gonna take that out.

[A]

We're gonna take that out.

[B]

We're gonna take that out.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah, we just cut out. I'm not sure how much we cut out of that episode, but we cut out some of it. Uh, okay, let's get on to more questions. Uh, marathon versus ultra. I've noticed your training has a lot of speed sprinkled in it. So, like, our training plans on Patreon, why does trail seem to push away from the marathon when it's basically our first cousin? So talking about other trail approaches that seem to just be less focused on, like marathon type speed, um, blah, blah, blah. So they're asking, what is that difference? Like, why is ultra training starting to seem less oriented towards speed than like, almost any other thing in running?

[A]

I think there's a lot of variation in coaching philosophy. I think anchoring in our first cousin like that is the thing that is most related to trail running and maintaining that speed and running economy is so important.

[B]

I think it's. If we're using the first cousin analogy.

[A]

Oh, I think it's more like a sister or brother.

[B]

Well, it's like our first cousin is Dua lipa and we're like singing in the church basement where I'm like, yeah, you might have a great voice in the church basement, but there's a reason Dua lipa is dua lipa. And here.

[A]

Okay, that is a bangin analogy. David, high five. That was good. I'm so proud of you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, that was great.

[B]

Well, here, you know, DUA is the marathon training where the performance margins are so narrow. In an ultra running, it just isn't. And if we're assuming, if you have any understanding of the marathon world or the track world world or whatever, you understand that that physiology, if it came over in a substantial way while it was at that level, it would do incredibly with specific training. Like. And the thing is, though, it takes that top end, right. It takes that extreme level, which we've almost never had in trails. Like, we've had people that used to be that good come over to trails, but never in the moment they're that good. And so the whole SWOT theory is just that, well, whatever optimizes physiology, the baseline elements, elements of it that you could measure in a lab or you could measure on the trails or anywhere will be the thing that optimizes performance. And yes, ultras are so complicated because there are a million other variables that go into it. It just isn't that competitive in the same way.

[A]

Well, I think actually we take. The challenge is you take dua lipa Dua lipa kind of talent and give them trail training and they're going to excel in trails because they have DUA LIPA talent, but only if they're at

[B]

the DUA LIPA levels.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So the problem is a lot of the people that come over to trails go from dua lipa not to church basement, but maybe to, like, you know, whatever. The other example would be, by the time they get to trails, that is not. And yes, they often do great. But my point is, if Jess McLean came to Trails, oh, my goodness, he just. It would be insane.

[A]

Well, all the men should watch out. I said that before, but it's like, you know.

[B]

Yeah. And no one really thinks about that, but, like, because they never do. Because this, the real, real top end of marathon is so financially beneficial to those athletes that, oh, my God.

[A]

Coming over to trails would be a huge financial mistake.

[B]

A huge financial mistake. Whereas later on, it's a huge financial benefit.

[A]

Actually. It is kind of like being in that world a little bit more now and seeing the appearance fees, it's like trails are on a different level.

[B]

Well, and just for.

[A]

Sometimes athletes get single appearance fees that are much bigger than the larger prize purse at a single trail race.

[B]

Oh yeah, for sure.

[A]

All the time. All the time.

[B]

I mean that's like par for the course. And so. Okay, so to, to summarize if that ability would translate and it would. It's just a question of, you know, how you make it translate. If you can keep some of that ability or all of that ability or in the case of, let's say a four hour marathoner, make them the equivalent of a 3:30. Even if they never run a marathon, their performance potential will skyrocket because you're touching every physiological variable that truly goes into performance. And the things that can be optimized for in ultras are not physiological, geological. They're much more amorphous. And the types of things that, you know, you can game that system and you know, to use myself and is a perfect example of this, I have been relatively successful in trails and ultras. You know, I was number two ultra runner of the year and the number four ultra run of the year two years in a row.

[A]

It's actually hard to do that two years in a row.

[B]

And this year I'm going to be

[A]

number infinity because maybe three years in a row. Impossible.

[B]

I'm going to be last place.

[A]

No, I believe, trust me, I'm going to go, I'm going to go apple bobbing in the toilet at Leadville Infinity if.

[B]

Because I'm gonna probably do zero.

[A]

You know what, I'm actually gonna bookmark this. I believe. Okay, let's see what happens.

[B]

Congrats, Megan.

[A]

What do you give me if you're in the top 10 rankings, you get to be last.

[B]

You get to be wrong on main again.

[A]

I think we deleted the last one.

[B]

I think we deleted the last time you were wrong on main.

[A]

It was too spicy.

[B]

But you know, I just came in and just by doing carbs and a little bit of this and optimizing just a little bit of my own personal like speed essentially I was able to have those results. And I am not good. Like I'm good but like relative to what the true end, top end of the sport is, I'm not that good. And so our point is always, yes, ultras will give you the illusion of certain things working. But unless those things work in extremely narrow margin competitive settings and also correspond with extremely positive physiological changes in that athlete, then what you're probably catching is just talent mixed with lower competitive pressure rather than some major signal. So we look to the places where you can see those signals, which in the running world would be shorter distances where you know, at western states there's probably 20 men on the start line that have a maybe 25 that have a feasible shot at top 10 in a race like Boston Marathon there are so like anyone at the level that could compete would be. So you're just getting such a huger denominator and so huger.

[A]

It was cute.

[B]

So that's the way to summarize like where we look and cycling.

[A]

I was actually just going to go there. Do you see a similar parallel between gravel racing and UCI cycling? Absolutely.

[B]

But no one in gravel racing would argue with that actually.

[A]

But I think gravel racing to see the talent coming in is wild. Like looking at unbound, it was like these are also some of the best of the best on roads and that is changing the sport.

[B]

But that's the part that is confusing.

[A]

But the training is similar. Yeah, yes.

[B]

That's the part that's confusing to me is no one in the gravel racing would say that the training is different,

[A]

but maybe that's because of power output as a proxy. Like I think if we had it

[B]

it would be in running too if

[A]

we don't have the variable. And so it's not, we can't measure it in the same way. And so I think it's almost like a measurement error for sure.

[B]

A measurement error, yes. But also I think the fact, well

[A]

it's not a measurement error, it's like a lack of measurement and more things

[B]

go wrong in ultras. We're looking at different types of talent for sure. But the in cycling like no one, I mean all of the top end gravel riders that are doing these 200

[A]

mile rides, they're doing very similar training to the UCI riders.

[B]

They would all say your one hour power, your functional threshold power is the large part of what happens here. That is basically all that matters. Um, and then everything else is determining at the edges. And so yes, gravel training for the 200 changes like just like our training changes be for people that are doing a hundred miles has to um, but they would say that matters. But in ultra running for some reason no one's like, well the equivalent, whatever that is your, you know, whether it's your velocity at VO2 or your climbing ability at threshold, I think that would probably be the best specific one because it, your maybe your pure speed doesn't Matter, but your power does.

[A]

Well, I feel like it's a measurement thing. Like, if we had a measurement like FTP and running, I feel like this would be a different conversation.

[B]

Yeah, but we do. If you know where to look.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Velocity at top end of aerobic threshold, that is the thing.

[A]

But it's so convoluted compared to FTP.

[B]

It is very convoluted. But if we had a simple way to measure that, that would determine that. So much stratification of results. And we would stop just saying, okay, whatever this talented athlete does in ultras, this super talent, that's what everybody else should be doing. That's not the way it works. Works. Right. Like, in reality, you'd be like, well, what makes that athlete have such a high velocity at aerobic threshold in ultras you'd just be like, usually you can just say talent health training lot. Um, in marathons, you'd say, oh, all these wrinkles that everybody's now doing in marathons. It's basically ubiquitous. And if you've been paying attention to swap success on roads, like, you know, we're really in the middle of that world right now, which is so fun. Um, and in cycling, there's basically, you know, there's a lot of different ways to get to the same answer. And I think for Altras, it's simply just the talent, and then the weirdness of the events can cause a lot of strange conclusions. And.

[A]

But the thing is, like, unbound is weird in the same way. And I think it really gets all back to the easiness of, like, measuring FTP, because unbound has so many different variables in, like, quite the same way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Obviously mechanically different, there's not as much mechanical breakdown. So it changes, like, you know, fatigue resistance. Actually, I think fatigue resistance is probably equally important. Important in both.

[B]

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think fatigue resistance becomes so important so early. So I think what we're measuring in marathons with fatigue resistance would also apply directly at ultras if those athletes know how to fuel, which nowadays every marathoner does. So that was my big screed, dude.

[A]

That was a rant and a half.

[B]

I mean, I don't know if the rant. I mean.

[A]

I know. I mean.

[B]

And the point is, we're learning from the ultra coaches, too. Like, the pure ultra coaches have so much to teach because there are, like, muscular endurance principles. Evoke crushes it. There's.

[A]

Oh, my God, I love Scott Johnson.

[B]

Yeah. And we are learning so much all the time from that world. But I think it has to Be mixed with like the. How is an athlete actually get faster end of the spectrum. Because otherwise often. And. And the. The challenge to any training system is just we'll take super talent out of the picture. Right. And this goes for us too. Um, and that's always the trickiest part of coaching because super talents can do a lot of different things and be super talented. And the question becomes, well, what optimizes maybe more across the board? Which is why I love marathons, because you get much more of a broad spectrum spectrum, you know, cause, effect, relationship to determine that understanding. And yeah, so screed over.

[A]

Oh, I think that's relevant to NCAA coaching too, is I care so much less about how the star athlete is performing because that's often like, you know, you're measuring genetic talent there. And what is the. Like, what's the cast of the team doing and you know, how are they looking across the board? What's the. Like, what's the median athlete in terms of performance doing? And from a coaching perspective, that matters to me more.

[B]

Yeah. And so to summarize for anybody out there listening, if you can reduce your 5k time by 30 seconds per mile, that will have the largest impact of performance over almost anything else you can do that's more amorphous. And that's such a weird comment for someone. It's like this 24 minute 5k or gets down to 20 through 30. Yes, it will, because that touches every physiological variable that will then be relevant in ultras, whereas optimizing four ultras doesn't really touch very many variables other than like specific ones related to the stupid human trick of doing ultras in the first place. And so. Yeah. Okay. Should we do any dumb ones to clean?

[A]

Oh, let's do one more. Okay, let's pick.

[B]

Let's do an Addy one.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

How is Addy dog doing? Haven't heard any pod updates in a while, but I know you've got a ton of other stuff going on.

[A]

Oh, we love Addy. She's our queen. Yeah, it's been really hard to treat her like that. Just with two boys. It's been busy. She currently has worked worms right now.

[B]

She has worms.

[A]

Yeah, we need to deworm her. That's a whole process.

[B]

I gave her stuff this morning.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we're waiting on it.

[B]

She was also limping pretty heavily this morning.

[A]

You know, she periodically does that sometimes. We didn't fetch her, so we don't know where that limp is coming from. But she's 13 and a half. It's a hard existence.

[B]

Yeah. Older than that even now. Um, so, yeah, Addie is crushing it. She's fetching better than ever. She's just as fast as she used to be on fetch. I. I am very proud of my coaching for Addie. I am. You know, it's like we always go to greyhound training, but I have set her a training training plan.

[A]

You've, like, consistently coached her too, and committed to it.

[B]

She's just as loving as she ever was. She can't really hear anymore.

[A]

I think that's selective.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you have two boys screaming, it'd be kind of nice to have that property sometimes.

[B]

Yeah. That's just really beautiful. You know, like, seeing her go through the aging process and it's actually hard.

[A]

You know, it's like watching her this morning and thinking about, you know, she was limping hard. I was like, do I take her to the vet? And, you know, seeing a dog go through that process when they're 13 and a half, like, she's lived such a beautiful life, but at the same time it's like, ooh, that looks like it hurts. Yeah.

[B]

When was the last time she went to the vet?

[A]

Oh, a long time ago.

[B]

Six or seven years.

[A]

I know. I was like, which vet did we go to six or seven years ago?

[B]

So, in other words, Addy's doing great. So we, we're trying to apply performance science to her. And, hey, if anybody out there has an aging dog. We started Addy on, I think at 5 or 6, on Cosequin. And it's just a joint pill, so. C, O, S, E, Q, U, I, N, um, and we get messages about it all the time. It changed her life. She was already slowing down at that age, and now with that medication, she's fetching really, really well. And yes, she was limping aggressively this morning. Uh, but that just means she needs 10 of them. I gave her so much of that shit. Um, so I. We talk about this periodically. Once every year or two. But it changed her life. And I heard about it from a listener whose dog was 17 and still running at the time.

[A]

So that was Nanny the Beagle.

[B]

Nanny the Beagle, yeah. Um, and so pour one out for Nanny. Ah, she's off running in doggy heaven right now, but ran right until the end and it was game changing. So the feed needs to sell coin.

[A]

I was like, you're sciencing the shit out of Addy dog.

[B]

Honestly, we need Cosequin for humans. The same medication. It's basically glucosamine and mixes of that it doesn't seem to do much for humans. Based on the studies though some people recommend taking it.

[A]

But if it did, maybe because humans aren't taking like the 5 equivalent that you're feeding to Addie.

[B]

I do feed a lot. I'm not saying to do what I do with Addie. Yeah, that probably is breaking several ethical code lines, but there's.

[A]

You're doing it. Good intent.

[B]

Yeah, good intent. I'm doing it for health, not for form.

[A]

Addy might need a 2 UE.

[B]

Actually, I am doing it for performance. So what am I talking about? Okay, let's get onto the snare corner. Before that, what do we have?

[A]

Janji. I am loving. So Janji has the RD shorts which have a built in waist belt and it's game changing for me. I can carry so many gels within there and a phone and like all built within the shorts and I think it's like the only short I'm gonna wear from here on out.

[B]

Yeah, you can just put the phone right in, which is game changing for. Plus the gels. It could even have a light bottle in the back. I find that like the bigger, bigger bottles probably aren't the best for that. But Janji's gear right now is going so hard. So the RD shorts, that is the hugest recommendation. Recommendation possible.

[A]

Hugest. I like how you're bringing that back. Just so cute.

[B]

The thing is, you commit to it. That's what modern society teaches.

[A]

Well, you're wearing John G shorts right now and you just said hugest. And so I'm like, sign me up.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

God, that's a good combo.

[B]

What else? We got to talk about a John G. Basically anything. You can go to johnji.com swapping swap. Find the gear we like. Also get discounts and stuff.

[A]

I'm wearing the long bra, the RD bra women love. It's got like compartment for ice in the front. You can carry a full bottle in the back.

[B]

Do they sell that design still?

[A]

This is the. Actually, this is Abigail West. She's an artist who partnered with John G. Who I coach. I love Abigail. Check out her work in general. But she made this cactus design for Araba.

[B]

It's beautiful.

[A]

Isn't it beautiful?

[B]

I love this design and it's very cool. So this bra, we just folded it down. It goes down, down. So it like goes over the upper part of the stomach.

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's a long bra. So it's like a crop top.

[B]

That looks very comfortable.

[A]

It's very comfortable.

[B]

Definitely a type of bra. I'D wear if I was a woman.

[A]

Oh, I love it. It's great. It's like I just wear it all the time everywhere. What were you gonna say?

[B]

I don't know. I'm just saying, like.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, do you want one of these?

[B]

I would.

[A]

Convenient for carrying stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like you should have one in your life.

[B]

Maybe that's my, like, comeback story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I come back as the long bra guy. Wouldn't that be fun?

[A]

That'd be really fun.

[B]

I've always thought if an athlete really wants a sponsorship, you know, I look at all these races that happen, especially in trails and ultras, and I'm like, I can't tell anybody from anybody. You know, all those. All those guys at the front look the exact same to me. I don't. I don't know the difference. But if someone had, like, a distinct style that was really distinct.

[A]

I mean, that's you. You got green. Long green basketball shorts and a Dino on your shirt.

[B]

And I did retire that.

[A]

And you have nailed that. Maybe you should have stuck with it and committed to the bit.

[B]

No, no, I think you. To commit to a bigger bit. You got to go all in. You go all in.

[A]

I got small bits.

[B]

I almost. No, Megan, your bits are perfect. Well, they weren't. Small is not a value judgment.

[A]

Actually, as I took time off, I rested for three and a half weeks. Three weeks. And I was like, my boobs grew. And you're like, megan, no, they didn't. I was so optimistic. I was like, I didn't run in. My bits grew. And you're like, they kind of look the same.

[B]

Size is relative, but you love them

[A]

for what they are, so it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I love everything about you, but you're. I was like, look in the mirror. I was like, look at this. And you're like, I don't see it.

[B]

And like, think about how big they are to a nanoparticle. Think about how big they are.

[A]

Lipid nanoparticles. They are trucking the lipid nanoparticles.

[B]

How many nanoparticles do you think they are each?

[A]

Oh, my goodness gracious. 15,000. That's how we should measure. I'm no longer an A cup. I'm a 15,000 nanoparticle cup in this long bra.

[B]

Honestly, it's probably something like 15 trillion.

[A]

And it's probably 15 trillion.

[B]

I don't know what the. The scales are. The scales of the world are the most shocking thing of, like, to. To fully comprehend that like, if you take. What is it? A cup of air or whatever, there will be molecules in that air or in that world. Man, I don't. I don't want to commit to this.

[A]

You just backed out of a dad.

[B]

But I think what the dad fact is. Yeah, and I'm sorry if this is wrong. This is an end of the pod dad fact.

[A]

This is a. This is a guess and test dad fact.

[B]

So if you take like, it's got

[A]

to be better than my 15,000 nanoparticles. That's clearly not right.

[B]

Maybe it's like a cup of air. It will share molecules with what was in. Insert historical figure here. Going back far enough. So like Cleopatra or something. The. The one people often use is Jesus, interestingly. To show that. No, to show that we're all connected.

[A]

You know, my boobs are like, wwjd

[B]

God. Megan, I'm trying to make, like an interesting point. Also my point.

[A]

I was afraid your dad fact was wrong, so I'm afraid too. Gotta interject.

[B]

But that's how weird the skin scale of like the universe is, that when you start to talk about things that are that small, you see, like when you talk. Oh, no, I shouldn't have used the word small.

[A]

No, better that small. Bring out hugest again. Like you've got the hugest bits.

[B]

Okay, in conclusion, whatever size your bits are, man, woman, non binary person out there, they are perfect. Do not waste any time worrying about your body. You get one body, and all of our judgments about bodies are societal. They are passed down through no idea of why through no like. And we are all subject to it. So just let yourself be free of bit anxiety. That goes for every single bit you could ever think of. Look in the mirror right now and be like, this is the definition of perfection, is what you are or what your friends are or whatever. And it is just so relaxing because we carry so much societal bias into

[A]

all of our bit thoughts, our deep bit thoughts.

[B]

Okay, that listener corner is really long. I can't. I can't read it.

[A]

That's a long listener corner.

[B]

Okay, let's. I'm just going back up, seeing if I got any more. Oh, the uncertainty one's beautiful. I'm just going to read this. We're not going to answer the question, but it gets to, you know, just the difficulty of life. Uh, David and Megan first, thank you for sharing Megan's heart journey over the years and recently. I hope everything works out and you can start training again. I have appreciated it as I've been undergoing a Heart journey of a different kind. For the past five or six years, I have had to have regular monitoring of a bad heart valve. Knowing that replacement was likely. I was told a few weeks ago that it is time my cardiologist. My cardiologist shout down my running.

[A]

Oh, shut down.

[B]

Shut down my running. Uh, she called me mid run and I had to walk a half mile back to my car. I meet with my surgeon next week to learn next steps. Not running has been a challenge, especially since this is a huge stress release. Hopefully it goes well and I can restart running in the future. I can try to your return to run plan on Patreon. My question for you both is, how did you manage the uncertainty and loss of something you love?

[A]

That is so tough. And it's like, it's so hard to be in this position, especially anything heart related related. It's like, man, it's scary and it feels like it's like the core of your body. And it's also like, you know, as I was thinking about some of the antibodies that I have to my heart, which we're like still learning about, it's like, that's like literally the core powering my entire being of life, but also of running too. And I think just let yourself grieve that process and, you know, understand that it is like really fucking hard.

[B]

Yeah. And there's no answer. We love you. As you go through this and I

[A]

think just continue it whole belief and every path. Like, I think for me that's been really helpful is just being like, I'm going to commit to believing and commit to believe that like, maybe hopefully someday you'll be back here and that's going to be like, coming back is going to be so wonderful to have that back in your life, if that's an option. And having someone or something in your life that can remind you of that belief is helpful.

[B]

Can I impersonate you to end the podcast?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So sometimes life is a big church toilet full of shit, and all you got to do is go neck deep and find the beta fuel gel. So look for the little pieces of beauty in the big old shit stew you're currently living in. And then you go in, double fist it. Just jump into that big old tub of shit.

[A]

Yeah. Dive right in with all your bits around. I was gonna say make the bits happen.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Oh, that's actually terrible. Just honor the bits.

[B]

Honor the bits.

[A]

Yeah, that's a more beautiful way to end.

[B]

I honor your bits, Megan. Into the. This listener. Yeah, we got this. It's going to be. It's going to get better.

[A]

We all got this belief. Wherever you are right now, whether that's in a church bathroom or out there, ruin.

[B]

Oh, Megan. Oh, Megan. I feel like we need a better way to land it.

[A]

We do. We didn't land that plan very well. You got to land it. You're better at landing than I am. Yeah, I feel like I'm better at taking off. You're better at landing.

[B]

How much of that discussion on, like what we talked about earlier, do you think we're going to cut out?

[A]

Oh, should we just kind of all out the. The one where I got real spicy? Yeah, we should probably take that all out.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. All right.

[B]

We're going to release that on Patreon. Patreon only someone gives us $5 a month they deserve. Okay, we argue. All

[A]

right.