314. Carbs and Bone Health, A Reproducibility Crisis in Training Science, Wild Data on Post-Exercise Ketones, and Trail Supershoe Data!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Some Work, All Play Episode 314

Hosts: David Roche and Megan Roche
Date: June 9, 2026
Main Themes: Carbs & Bone Health, Reproducibility Crisis in Training Science, Post-Exercise Ketones, Trail Supershoe Data, and much more—delivered with science, humor, and heart.

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Overview

In episode 314, David and Megan Roche tackle a lively, science-rich lineup, ranging from the latest in training interventions and endurance nutrition to new research on bone health, trail running shoes, and psychological aspects of adaptation. The show’s trademark warmth and humor is on full display, as the hosts blend deep dives into studies with anecdotes, debates, and plenty of memorable one-liners.

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Highlights & Topics

Opening: Injury Tales & Hopeful Mindsets

[00:01 – 05:12]

• David discusses his ongoing plantar injury saga, debating treatments like PRP (platelet-rich plasma), Graston technique, and his own inventive (but not recommended!) butter knife DIY approach.
• Megan reflects on the emotional toll of long-term injuries—both in herself and others.
• Key Insight: The power of self-convincing positivity (“self-gaslighting”) can be helpful in training, but risky with persistent injuries.
• Quote (David, 04:25): “If there’s anything about my personality, it’s that I’ll just convince myself that things are gonna be good almost to a fault.”

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Roadmap & Breaking Science

Preview: Today’s Scientific Menu

[05:12 – 06:06]

• Exogenous ketones used by athletes
• New trail “super shoe” study
• Reproducibility (or lack thereof) in exercise science
• Carbs, bone health, and collagen supplementation studies
• Listener Q&As on breathing, treadmill training, and heartbreak

Viral Training Videos & Downhill Solutions

[08:34 – 11:56]

• Discussion of the viral Tom Evans video (trail champ) running “downhill” on a steep treadmill, weighted with vest and ankle weights.
• Debate over mechanics: uphill backwards vs. downhill forwards? (Spoiler: even coaches disagreed and needed NFL-style film review!)
• Quote (David, 09:31): “We need Zapruder film-level analysis on this.”
• Implications: For flatland runners, parents, or those short on trail access, innovative controlled eccentric (downhill) training on treadmills may be game-changing.

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Segment: The Ketone Craze—Hype, Science & Cautions

Study Recap

[12:05 – 22:26]

• Study: "Ketosis Enhances Vascular Function, Angiogenic Signaling and the Erythropoietic Response to Exercise and Hypoxia"
• Involved commonly-available post-exercise ketones (Ketone IQ, not expensive esters).
• Found serum EPO (red blood cell-boosting hormone) rose 15% post-exercise with ketones—potentially hinting at performance benefits.
• Also saw improvements in vascular function and muscle reoxygenation rates.
• Quote (David, 17:00): “I am obsessed with angiogenesis… I think a lot of training interventions come back to angiogenesis.”
• However, a major warning: Other research (and their own observations) indicates ketones may acutely drop testosterone by up to 20%.
• Nuanced take: Occasional, moderate use after hard training might be beneficial, but hormonal checks are wise.

Key Message:

• “If you’re in the midst of really hard training and looking for that next little thing, post-exercise ketones… maybe 1-3 times per week could be good. But you should probably get some hormonal checks on that.” (David, 20:06)

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Trail Supershoe Study: Hype Meets Reality

[22:42 – 29:00]

• Study: "The Effects of Advanced Footwear Technology and Trail Running Shoes on Running Economy"
• Compares Nike Ultrafly (trail super shoe) vs. Saucony Peregrine (standard trail shoe): Only a marginal 1.1% running economy benefit.
• Trail super shoes are still much heavier than road super shoes, indicating tech is lagging.
• Hosts praise HOKA Rocket X trail as a promising, lighter option.
• Memorable Moment: Megan and David joke about the “big donkey ass” (BDA) status of heavier, less advanced trail shoes.
• Practical tip: Shoe choice must be individualized—and watch for possible injury linkage with certain super shoes.

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The Reproducibility Crisis in Training Science

[29:41 – 42:03]

• Study: "Limited reproducibility of Individual Physiological Adaptations to Repeated Endurance Exercise Training"
• 42 untrained adults repeated identical 8-week blocks, separated by detraining.
• Finding: Individual responses to the same training are wildly inconsistent; hemoglobin mass, power output, angiogenesis, etc., all varied from block to block.
• Quote (study): “…physiological adaptability to endurance training does not reflect a stable, individual-specific attribute, but instead emerges from dynamic and context-dependent biological processes.”
• Implication: Training needs to be constantly individualized and adjusted—even for the same person over time.
• Coaching Insight (David, 39:26): “Training is holistic. As much as we want to anchor it in science…”

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Carbs & Bone Health: Fueling Adaptation & Protection

[46:31 – 58:24]

• Study: "Low Carbohydrate Availability and Recovery From Fasted Aerobic Exercise Negatively Affect Markers of Bone Turnover in Males"
• Post-exercise carb intake protects against bone resorption and promotes bone formation; low-carb recovery increases bone breakdown markers.
• Quote (Megan, 56:14): “Carbs are so important for long-term bone health... osteoblasts are heavily reliant on glycolysis for collagen synthesis and matrix production.”
• TL;DR: Don’t just match calories, match carbs for bone health.

Collagen Supplementation Study
[59:11 – 61:15]

• Study: Collagen peptides in female runners increased bone formation and lowered inflammation over 4 weeks (compared to carbs).
• Practical recommendation: Adding collagen to daily routine may help, but overall protein is also key.

Carbs vs. Protein During Low-Calorie Intake

• In situations of low energy availability, athletes who ate more carbs, even during deficit, performed better than those with higher protein and less carb.

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Listener Q&A & Rapid Fire Advice

Breathing Styles & Overthinking

[67:20 – 72:06]

• On 2/2, 3/3, 4/4 breathing: Let it take care of itself; overthinking breathing (like forced nose breathing) can increase anxiety and isn’t necessary for most. Coaches don’t recommend it.

Uphill Treadmill Training & Mileage

[72:06 – 75:49]

• 90 minutes on an uphill treadmill counts as a full long run's worth of load, even if the mileage is lower; include it in your weekly tally.

Heartbreak & Recovery

[76:21 – 80:09]

• Advice for someone whose partner cheated with a friend:
  • Recognize character when shown.
  • It will hurt, and that grief is valid.
  • Focus on rebuilding, talking with friends/therapist, and believing it’s not your fault.
• Quote (Megan, 79:41): “…you fucking rock, and this has nothing to do with you. Own that baller part of yourself.”

Mistakes, Coaches & Communication

[84:37 – 89:18]

• When mistakes in training cause tension with a coach, communicate honestly about your feelings. A coach’s job is support, not shaming. If disrespect persists, consider changing coaches.

Rapid Fire Qs

• Writing down workouts or using arm reminders beats programming in complex workouts.
• Passive sunbathing is minor heat acclimation, but real heat training requires more intensity (sauna, hot tub).
• Pool hangouts = fun, not training (but every bit helps).

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Product Plugs & Recommendations

• The Feed: Where the hosts get their go-to gels, ketones, and collagen.
• Janji Bags & Apparel: Megan raves about the new “ultra hauler super tote” (even gym strangers, naked or not, ask about it!).
• Wahoo Treadmills: Both road and trail athletes benefit. Use their code for perks.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On DIY injury care:
  • “The butter knife has its jersey hanging up in the rafters.” (David, 02:08)
• On Shoes:
  • “No offense, Saucony Peregrine, but you’re a big donkey ass.” (David, 23:28)
• On Skepticism in Science:
  • “If you view science as proving the negative, it’s a very, very wrong one to do.” (David, 14:39)
• On Individualization in Coaching:
  • “After the basics, you have to get creative and really focus on the individual and be open to change.” (David, 40:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start Time | |-----------------------------------------------|-------------| | Injury Talk, Butter Knife Saga | 00:01 | | Show Roadmap & Science Menu | 05:25 | | Tom Evans Treadmill Video Discussion | 08:34 | | Ketone Study Deep Dive | 12:05 | | Trail Super Shoe Data | 22:42 | | Reproducibility Crisis | 29:41 | | Carbs & Bone Health Study | 46:31 | | Collagen Supplementation | 59:11 | | Listener Q&A—Breathing | 67:20 | | Listener Q&A—Uphill Treadmill Mileage | 72:06 | | Listener Q&A—Breakups | 76:21 | | Listener Q&A—Coach Conflict | 84:37 | | Listener Corner—Rate My Butt Story | 92:19 |

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Tone & Closing

The episode is classic Some Work, All Play: energetic, heartfelt, nerdy, and irreverent, with running science interwoven with personal anecdotes, practical tips, and endless encouragement (“Bread makes strong fucking bones!”). The Roches maintain camaraderie and honesty—highlighting both the joys and struggles of running, coaching, and life.

Sign-off [93:57]:
“We love you all.” – David & Megan

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For more nuanced study breakdowns, training plans, and Q&A, visit their Patreon or check out the show notes for referenced products and resources.

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Welcome to the Summer Call Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[A]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday and I'm hiding the butter knives on this Tuesday.

[B]

Oh, my God, Megan, you definitely need to do that right now.

[A]

Ah, yeah, we gotta put them somewhere safe. Okay.

[B]

Okay, so this is referencing last Wednesday. I went to an ortho. He's the team doctor for the Denver Broncos. That seems like a big deal.

[A]

Oh, really? I feel like a lot of the orthopedic surgeons are like, I'm the team doctor for the Broncos. He's probably got some MLB teams on there, some NBA teams.

[B]

Toronto Blue Jays.

[A]

Ah. I'm like, how many plantar fascias of the Blue Jays have you touched?

[B]

I'm sure all of them, actually. I wonder if that can go be a negative, like, if you're the team doctor for the Cleveland Browns. If everybody's like, nope, you're in.

[A]

Clear, we're out.

[B]

I'm not gonna win a single game. But he was awesome and he talked about different ways to get this plantar healthy. The main one was doing prp. And I'm hesitant to do that solely because it'll make me go on crutches for a little bit. And I wanna be able to parent to my maximum extent. Like, that's the main thing I want this summer is to be at the top of my game with that and to enjoy the trails with you or at least be able to bike with you.

[A]

And I feel like you're just in a really hard place with decision making of trying to figure that out. We were actually, like, in bed last night and you just gave me this, like, really loving kiss. And at the end of the kiss, you just turned and looked at me and I was like, wow, what's he gonna say? And you're like, megan, PRP or focus shock wave. You should have added the butter knife as a third option in there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Door 3 you do not want to take. But in that process, the ortho talked about Graston and doing Graston after the PRP after I come back. And I've never had that done. So I looked it up on the Internet. I did some YouTubing, much like I would try to fix a sink or something. And it looks like something I could do. So I got my butter knife out, which isn't necessarily a Graston tool, but close enough. It's like, well, fuck it, we ball. It's either this or prp. And I did little things with it. I didn't do that much with it. I know you're going to say I'm amputated myself, but. No, it was just a little. Little bit of scraping.

[A]

Okay. We know how hard you go on interventions, and at 24 hours, you had so much hope. I did have little bit of scraping, but I was like, david, show me the results at 48 and 72 at 96. Show me your salt and half plantar fascia.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's doing pretty good now.

[A]

How are you feeling?

[B]

I ran this morning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe the butter knife is the secret. No, no. We'll see. It just shows anybody out there going through stuff. I understand the desperation, and I've moved on. I've actually gotten Graston tools, so I have retired the butter knife. The butter knife has its jersey hanging up in the rafters. Retiring. It's actually on the ring of fame at the Denver Broncos stadium. It's really wonderful.

[A]

You should just send it to doctor's office. You know, sometimes athletes give, like, signed team jerseys and, like, paraphernalia to doctor's offices to put on the wall. You should just give the butter knife.

[B]

Well, the person that did your hamstring surgery in 2018, Dr. James DiNario. Amazing doctor.

[A]

He's incredible.

[B]

He's actually a partner of Aaron Mates, who is the great ortho I saw for the foot. He got your team USA jersey, and it was hung in his office at the stem in clinic for the longest time. And we would always get messages about it from people.

[A]

For the longest time. Is it still there?

[B]

Well, he's moved offices.

[A]

Ah. I wonder if he took it with him or he was like, we can give this one to Goodwill.

[B]

I asked the nurse, and she's like, I hadn't seen it.

[A]

We don't know where that jersey.

[B]

But the office I was in did have someone from the Denver Ballet. So, no offense, Megan. USA jersey. A ring below the Denver Ballet.

[A]

I believe the Denver Ballet is maybe a better science experiment on feet.

[B]

I don't know. Megan, you went out and won a national championship the next year, so he did a really good job.

[A]

Oh, he did an amazing job.

[B]

And I'm sure it's somewhere. It's just probably not in the rooms that the nurse knew about. Yeah. So just send him a big old frame, a huge frame that takes up the whole wall with just a butter knife in it that I sign in. Permanent mark.

[A]

Perfect. I love that plan. But you did get a Graston tool. Yeah, it's a knockoff. Are you using it? Yeah.

[B]

Don't do any of this at home. Like, this is just a fun intro to the podcast to show what happens when you kind of have your back against a wall of something you've been dealing with for a really long time. And I understand what people are going through. Don't do what I'm doing. If it works, it is just by chance. It is not because of this grass dentur, anything I'm doing with that. It's more the stretching, the pt, all of that. And so, yeah, we'll see where it goes. I'm hopeful right this second because I was just running in a field of yellow flowers and that gives me all the possible joy.

[A]

We have the most amazing yellow flowers in this open space in our backyard. And I feel like it was a good journey for you out there. But how are you feeling? Because I feel like this has been a long process. This has been going on since October. There's been a lot of ups and downs, a lot of butter knives, a shockwave machine from Amazon. We've had a lot going on. Yeah. How are you feeling about it?

[B]

Oh, in Butter Knife we trust. If there's anything about my personality, it's that I'll just convince myself that things are gonna be good almost to a fault. So the self gaslighting can be great within an ultra or in training, sometimes a little less great when you have some sort of long term injury. But seeing you come back from the heart, that gives me hope. Like if you can do it with something so much worse than what I'm going through, then all I have to do is show up. And if I keep doing that, eventually things will be good. I just have to be smart and hopefully not saw my foot off in the process.

[A]

And once you do start to trust a little bit and have faith in the body. Like, I feel like over the last like week here, I've probably said we are so back 15 different times, which is a phrase from Francesco Pupi. But the wonderful thing about detraining is you can be so back like in 15 different ways just because you're starting from zero. And it's really nice actually to have the appreciation for just building back.

[B]

Yeah. And it just makes the story more human. And that's what it's about, is telling human stories and also talking about science, like we're going to do on this week's episode. So a quick roadmap. We're going to talk about a wild study on exogenous ketones that you guys need to hear about.

[A]

And I appreciate this study too. Because it's done with ketone iq, which is the ketones for the masses. So a much more reasonable ketone. It's actually not the gold standard ketone ester. But I'm excited about that because we have very little science on what athletes actually use, which is often ketone iq. Yeah. And so it was fun to see this paper come out.

[B]

I have some clapbacks against people on the Internet who have said shit to me for years based on this study. I'm like, you don't understand science. And now I get my hot takes. Then new trail super shoe data, a study on reproducibility and training that is kind of shocking. How low carb in the recovery window affects bones, collagen supplementation and bone health. A really interesting one there. And questions on breathing styles, uphill treadmill design, heartbreak, passive heat and more.

[A]

I feel like we're on our six week rotation of questions on breathing. We get a lot of those with like questions about all different kinds of breathing styles that I've never heard of. This one was 2. 2 and 3. 3. And I was thinking about it and I was, you know, I really don't want to think about it this much.

[B]

Megan, you're really, really lucky not to be an extreme overthinker when it comes to everything about running because I was fully in this world when I started out. So, you know, went to college to play football and then started running. It's like, oh, there's so much I don't know. One of the things I didn't know about was how you breathe. So I thought about this for years and years and years. I read Jack Daniels talking about 2, 2 and 3, 3. And I would just tie myself in knots trying to do all these breathing things. And it never worked. It made me so confused and anxious. So the big is don't think too much about involuntary processes. But we'll get there. But first, a quick promo for the feed. Go to the feed.com swap swap. There you get 40% off your first order and $10 back for every $100 spent. Best deal on the market for everything

[A]

you need, which is so clutch because recently I've been loving the hyper light caffeine.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

And I want to use a lot of feed credit on it. It has been clutch. So we have been using precision Hunter caf gels before training and somehow ran out of them. And then I was like, oh no, what am I gonna do? And having the Hyperlite caffeine was actually a great option.

[B]

It is my happiness drink. I Feel so good on it during training. And then after training I've become a much better parent. In fact, that might be why I'm back to running and my foot feels okay is because I've been on the hyper light train too. A little bit worried they might put MDMA in it.

[A]

Yeah. Why is the caffeine hit harder? Is it because it's green tea extract and like a little bit of mdma?

[B]

I don't have no idea. But it also has tons of carbs and Hans Troyer uses it, one of the best troll owners in the world. If Hans uses it, we should all use it. So go check out Hyperlite. They have a regular and a caffeine version that you can get. Then next are gels that are on wild deals on the feed right now called Amax Am a cx. I think they might expire by the end of the summer. That's why they have this huge deal. But tons of pro bikers and triathletes use these. They're drink gels so they go down super easy in the heat. Give them a try.

[A]

We've been getting a lot of questions about how do you do high carb at low cost and I feel like this is the answer, but in an actually tasty way. So I feel like sometimes some of the options are not the most tasty. But these are delicious.

[B]

So good. And then there's also college peptides and ketones there, which we're going to talk about studies later. Those studies have a ton of nuances. We're not saying to get them, but a good place to get whatever you're going to want on any of these topics is at the feed. So go to the feed.com swap okay, before we get to the ketone study, we have some breaking news. Megan, this is a new segment.

[A]

Apparently this is breaking news that we've been sent 57 different times. Yeah.

[B]

A video came out yesterday, we're recording this on Tuesday of Tom Evans on a steep ass treadmill with ankle weights on ankle and, and a weight vest on. And I'm not sure exactly what he's doing, whether he's running forwards or backwards. We debated this.

[A]

Well, we debated this at the start. We did a podcast that we scrapped at the start and we got 45 seconds in and I was like, look how he was running down the treadmill. And you just stopped in your tracks, didn't say anything and you're like, Megan, he was running backwards up the treadmill. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's Definitely running downhill.

[B]

I think I was wrong because it's a woodway which can go both directions, I think.

[A]

Well, it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't. The mechanics of that actually don't matter because you can still run downhill. Can you? Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I'm just so confused.

[A]

We should watch it. Hold on.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Pull this up.

[B]

Megan. This is an MC Escher mind bending thing. To me. I truly don't. I'm not sure what's going on there, Megan.

[A]

Well, actually, one of the top comments is still trying to work out if you're running uphill, backwards or downhill normally. So I feel like people out there also have their minds bended by this.

[B]

We need to get Zapruder film level analysis on this. We need to do NFL game tape. We need to get that ortho in, get him to get the Denver Broncos offensive coordinator, and then we'll scout him.

[A]

Well, I love that Tom Evans is pioneering the weight vest and the ankle weights. And then we got David Roach with the butter knife.

[B]

Yeah, Unfortunate, unfortunate. But Tom Evans just at the cutting edge here. Probably with his coach, Scott Johnston, I assume. And this answers the age old question, how do you prepare for steep downhills when you don't live in a place with steep downhills? Or how can you get a controlled, eccentric stimulus without the tons of pounding that you might get if you go run down steep trails? This could be a new frontier. And when we're sent it 57 times, I think everyone knows we're going to absolutely love this and be moderately obsessed. I just wish I was healthy so I could try this intervention right now.

[A]

Or I guess the question too is how do you get vert when you have a baby and it's hard to get outside and get on trails and like spend that time getting to steep vert places?

[B]

Are you saying that use the baby as a weight vest?

[A]

Right. Actually, you could.

[B]

You could.

[A]

I imagine like he's running slow enough that this could be an effective rocking technique.

[B]

Effective rocking technique could put the baby to sleep, but also just get your training adaptations at the same time. Pretty wonderful. So I love this because I think it's pushing the limits of how we think about training theory. And whenever coaches design new ideas to get at like age old problems, we should be paying attention. So we'll keep you updated if we see this more often. But for athletes in flat places, might be worth it to think about these types of interventions and how you would do them. Not as extreme as Tom probably is, but maybe you start with a few minutes or walking, these types of things. And you can see these eccentric contractions being a gateway to strength. And it could be really effective. I doubt we'll be seeing Olympic marathoners do this anytime soon, but for trail runners it could be interesting.

[A]

Okay, are you jealous? You've been trying to solve this problem for years at this point. Like we've been out on stroller walks and you're jumping, you're doing all these different kinds of things to try to stimulate eccentric muscle contractions. And here it is. He did it. He solved it.

[B]

Yeah. No, no, I'm not jealous. A rising tide raises all boats. Megan. Yeah. I might not get that Nobel prize in trail running science that I was hoping for, but it's great that someone else is doing it also.

[A]

He's probably. Someone else is probably picking up the flack too. I feel like when you put something like this out on the Internet, I'm sure there's going to be a backlash to this of like someone sitting in a front facing camera being like, eccentric muscle contractions don't matter. Why are you running downhill with a weight fast? So Tom Evans can deal with that or you can just ignore it?

[B]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Tom just ignores it. Tom might be above it all. I'm not above it all though, so I would get way more hate than he does.

[A]

Actually, you just engage. You'd be like, thank you for this loving commentary. I'm so grateful for you. You're amazing.

[B]

Thank you for the feedback. You're the best.

[A]

I'll send you a butter knife.

[B]

I hope every one of your erections is rock hard. That's usually what I'd say. Okay, let's get onto the ketone study. It's called ketosis. Enhances vascular function, angiogenic signaling and the erythropoietic response to exercise and hypoxia. There's that word again. That also came up last week and I messed it up. I really don't know how to say it.

[A]

You did it much more fluidly this time. I feel like you really emphasized the poetic too, which is great. I mean, we gotta get Mary Oliver on EPO and see this is. Have her writing about how good that feels.

[B]

So this is natural epo?

[A]

Natural epo, yes.

[B]

That is produced by the kidneys. Always very important to say. So it's an interesting training wrinkle. There have been past studies on post exercise ketones that seem to indicate that post exercise serum EPO increases. They also seem to find that when you're taking post exercise ketones, it's very hard to overreach. One study in particular did six weekly sessions of double workouts and it found that the athletes that were taking post exercise ketones had way fewer markers of overreaching, to the point that some theorized it might prevent overreaching altogether, though that's not exactly what the study said. Since then, a lot of athletes have been experimenting with this. I've been at the forefront of it since about 2024 when I had my breakthrough. But that also coincided with a lot of different things. So post exercise ketones are all the rage. Cyclists have been talking about this, runners a little bit and there's been a lot of debate on what works and what doesn't.

[A]

And I think the challenge is those studies were done with ketone esters, but they were also done with ketone esters at such a high level that when you crunch the numbers on it, athletes would have to spend upwards of $100 a day to do the supplementation. And a lot of the scientific studies and it's like, who's going to do that outside of the UCI? And I love that the study came in and answered the question of how do we do this with a more reasonably priced ketone?

[B]

Yeah. And this is where my clapback begins before we get to the actual study design. Every time I have talked about post exercise ketones, this is one of the ultimate no secrets things is as soon as we saw these first studies, I was like, that's very interesting. And I also theorize it helps with muscle fiber recruitment and moving you a little bit away from intermediate muscle fibers more towards more slow twitch behaving muscle fibers. Though that's un unconfirmed. And every time I talk about it, I would say, you know, I use ketone IQ solely because it's less expensive. And every other option, yes, we could get these ketones for free from the companies and we have, but it would just be impractical to do long term and to recommend to people. And I don't want to do anything that's not accessible to people. And as a result I would get these comments of just saying this is bullshit science, it does not apply to this type of ketone. And, and every single time I'm like, well maybe, but it has a similar mechanism, still raises blood ketones, maybe not

[A]

as much done via a ketone precursor, which is a little bit different, but you still, you know, outcomes are still

[B]

somewhat similar, somewhat similar, maybe less than, but still somewhat. And it just points out a view of science where if you view science as proving the negative. It's a very, very wrong one to do. It is only providing you one piece of evidence at any time. Never and never dispositive evidence either for that thing, but certainly not proving the absence space. So I think that this just gives us a more holistic view that the mechanism is not the specific design of ketones. It is the what happens in the recovery window when you have ketones supplemented with carbs, when you're getting the benefits perhaps of these natural evolutionary states of ketosis that happen in low energy states, but you have high energy at the same time, so you don't have the recovery costs. It's like kind of the best of both worlds. Perhaps, though it could have major negative outcomes that we're going to talk about after we get into the results here.

[A]

And this study looked at 13 male and two female participants and they did a randomized crossover design and they had them do a high intensity training session and then they had them do recovery and either normoxia, so lower like zero altitude sea level, or hypoxia with 3000 meter stimulated experience.

[B]

And that didn't end up really mattering to the study results, whether it was norm moxy or hypoxia, which is also pretty fascinating. The results were similar across both. And then they were supplemented in that recovery window with a placebo, an isocholic placebo. So same amount of calories or ketone iq, just the basic bitch ketone that available everywhere. And the money result here is that serum EPO increased by 15% in the athletes taking post exercise ketones. This overlaps with some of the past studies. Thus we're seeing some sort of signal that there is in the kidneys a process by which EPO seems to rise and that should subsequently improve red blood cell production and subsequently performance. But those next two steps have never been found by the literature yet that there's a performance bump from this, just this mechanistic like, you know, chemical biochemical change. And that doesn't say that it helps performance or blood values necessarily.

[A]

And they looked at other mechanisms too, in addition to the EPO finding and found that ketones actually increased post occlusion blood velocity by 15% as well as muscle reoxygenation rate by 9% as well. And so seeing the constellation of those findings to me was pretty exciting.

[B]

Yeah. And then there's a lot of factors related to angiogenesis, so capillarization around muscle fibers that seem to increase.

[A]

And you love angiogenesis.

[B]

I am obsessed with angiogenesis.

[A]

You would kiss me lovingly and be like, angiogenesis.

[B]

Yes, Megan, listeners might think you're joking, but I am not.

[A]

That's for real. That's for real.

[B]

I think a lot of training interventions come back to angiogenesis in the same way that a couple of weeks ago we talked about blood volume and that blood volume is a uniting factor across so many adaptation signals. I think the same goes for angiogenesis. Like, one of the reasons heat works like hot tub is because it causes increased angiogenesis in leg muscles. Specifically, based on some studies, or at least that's my theory and one of the theories that's out there, um, but also training does this. And so essentially, post exercise ketones seem to enhance the training signal while limiting chances of overreach from past studies. And so that is a pretty big vote in favor of post exercise ketones, which we've been talking about for a while. That being said, we have some misgivings and to this day I am extremely uncertain because there is one study in the past that no one really talks about that is a major warning bell signal on post exercise ketones that I think is important to bring up every time we talk about it.

[A]

And we've seen this anecdotally across several athletes in blood work as well as athletes start ketones. And then we see. And it's hard to tell. Like, you know, when you look at blood work, there's so many different things that impact these biomarkers that it's hard to tell. But we do see reductions in testosterone both in male and female athletes, and this study confirmed that. So it's called oral three hydroxybutyrate ingestion acutely lowers circulating testosterone concentrations in healthy young males. And. And they found a 20% decrease in testosterone compared to 3% in placebo, plus an increase in luteinizing hormone, which is a potential pathway there. And to see that that's a pretty high decrease in athletes. Plus testosterone is important in thinking about red blood cell formation and hematocrit and many of the factors that ketones themselves actually work on.

[B]

Yeah, when you pull one lever evolutionarily, you're also pulling many other levers. Like, the string is connected to so many different things. And the hard part is when you isolate one part of the string, which we often do, you're totally not seeing the other parts. So why does it prevent overreaching? We don't really know. It might just have to do with glycogen resynthesis. So you recover more glycogen in this state, which some Studies have found. Which would be super simple. Could be the same things as fueling properly. Or maybe there's something really weird. Or maybe when you're pulling these strings in the kidneys, you're also pulling strings in the pituitary gland in the thyroid.

[A]

I'm pretty sure it's the first time someone said pulling strings, the pituitary gland.

[B]

Megan, you and I are not talking about strings right now on this podcast.

[A]

That might be too much Inside Baseball. Too much podcast. Too much Inside Baseball. That one's just. For me.

[B]

That one was just. I've told you many times, I would record the podcast if no one was listening. Our female listeners can understand that joke. You can just fill in the gaps evolutionarily about the string. So you just don't know what is on the other end of what you're pulling. Very funny relative to what we're joking about. Um, so post exercise ketones are one of those elements where if someone's training really hard, if they're in the midst of hard training and they're looking for that next little thing, it seems like post ex ketones, like ketone IQ or like one of these, you know, ketone esters that are maybe even more potent. One or two times, maybe even three times per week could be good. But you should probably get some hormonal checks on that. I personally didn't have any plummet in my testosterone when I was doing it, but my testosterone isn't that high at baseline, which probably doesn't surprise anybody, so it's tough to know exactly what we're seeing there.

[A]

Dude, people think your testosterone's probably popping.

[B]

Do they?

[A]

I'm sure. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. I sent you an Instagram reel.

[A]

I did. I was just thinking about that. It was this woman, and she was like, you walk in and you see this cute guy, and then you're like, I think he might be gay. And that means he's gonna be your husband.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And obviously, you know, gay people often have extremely high testosterone. But just to point out that I don't think our listeners think I'm like, the epitome of masculinity at baseline.

[A]

But that's a great thing. Embrace your feminine side.

[B]

No, no, I'm. I totally do. Yeah, I totally do. I'm just saying the testosterone relationship there might be complicated.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, do our more professional athletes take post exercise ketones? Not really. It's still one of those elements that I'm not that comfortable suggesting in a uniform way to individuals. This is to be contrasted with things like sodium bicarbonate or Gnomeo and certainly high carb and currency. Like those are things that I say, everybody, if you have the money to do it, do it. So this is maybe the next thing. I think the most significant finding here is just what is causing this post exercise EPO increase and does it translate then to red blood cell production and performance? We don't know the answer to that. But when we do it might address things that aren't related to ketones. It might give us more understanding of how the body adapts and that would be really cool to know.

[A]

Is this going to change how you use it personally?

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

Just still like three days a week post exercise.

[B]

This echoes what I've seen, so I'm going to stick with it. How about you? How do you feel?

[A]

I started taking ketones less because of this study and more just because I felt like royal donkey ass coming back, you know, after that period of detraining from the heart. And I was like my body just needs like. I felt like I was just like deplete of all blood volume. It was like my body just needs some kind of stimulus and a little bit of a kick in the pants. And so I started taking it. I don't know, I mean I've never, I haven't really felt super comfortable about it for myself. Um, but I did start taking it and my brain kind of feels good later in the day on them and so that was a nice perk. So we'll see if I continue. Yeah, I don't think it's essential. Big.

[B]

We'll see. Just really interesting, you know, science in general and that is actually one other finding is that it lowers BDA levels. You're. You knew I was joking.

[A]

I knew you were. I mean what is. Tell me what BDA stands for. Tick Tick?

[B]

Big Donkey Ass.

[A]

Big Donkey Ass.

[B]

Okay. Okay, next study. This one's on trail shoes. We also got sent it a million times. It's called the effects of advanced footwear technology and trail Running shoes on running economy. There was an author write up that was really great done by Justin Drubert, but it took eight trail runners in a 4 by 1500 meter course. That was some trail y but not too hard at self selected 50k effort. And then they did this in randomized design with an advanced trail shoe which was the Nike Ultra Fi and a control shoe which was the Saucony Peregrine. And it just found that the advanced shoe led to a 1.1% benefit relative to the control with plus or minus 1.1% error bars.

[A]

1.1% is so low. And relative to the Saucony Peregrine too, which like, no offense, Saucony Peregrine, but that's not the first shoe I'm going to choose for a really fast 50k.

[B]

No offense, Saucony Peregrine, but you're a big donkey ass.

[A]

You're a, you're a bda, a little Kubrick.

[B]

But they're matched for weight, I think, which is really interesting.

[A]

They're matched for weight.

[B]

The shoes are.

[A]

Yeah. That's even more concerning.

[B]

Well, I think the Saucony Peregrine and the Ultrafi are similar weights, which just shows how behind advanced trail shoes are.

[A]

That's what I was just about to say is that's, that's a problem. They should not be matched for weight. But I would love to see. I mean, I feel like we should really compare here the Nike Ultrafly and a road super shoe and see what happens. Like, obviously you're not going to wear a road super shoe at a really technical ultra ultra, but I feel like it would show just how far our technology is behind.

[B]

Yeah. And for the sake of the studies, have athletes use it just to give us feel for what the alternate option is. Especially if the trail that they're using isn't super duper technical, which it's usually not, because then you're seeing things other than oxygen consumption and it's really hard to isolate. And I think if we did that, you'd probably see the Super Shoe at 5% or something, which would hopefully give a kick in the ass to trail super shoe designers. But I don't know. This was the first version of the Ultra Fi, so Maybe the Ultra Fi 2 is a little bit better, but it does show some benefit. So the shoes probably do have some benefit. I've always thought that for myself that you put me in a regular old shoe and I'm not anybody. I need advanced shoes. The question is, like, where are we going with it? I don't know. I try all of these. Basically, I haven't tried some of them. So we hear great things about the Kalash shoe, for example. I don't know exactly how to pronounce that. The new Asics is coming out. Haven't tried that. And, you know, I haven't been blown away by anything I've tried. They just all are kind of heavy and chunky and I don't understand why they're not just learning from road shoes.

[A]

What are you going to do for your shoe situation here? Coming up? Because you're building this hope. You're building this hope, and I think you're going to have a hope regression when you're like, what kind of trail super shoe do I wear? Because I do think the ASU one contributed to some of the plantar tearing. And so I think it would be a bad idea to go back to that shoe.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Even though we have 18 pairs in our basement, Megan, you should just give those to the orthopedic surgeon.

[B]

You're always reminding me of my biggest financial mistake on the podcast. Like. Like, I regret it so much that I did that, and I did it after the injury. It shows how much I'm just an idiot sometimes with this sort of thing. But these shoes, I was like, okay, this is the one way I was successful. But in retrospect, the shoes, very interesting. Strange design is part of the reason I got this injury, for sure. The orthopedist, when he was measuring and doing all this stuff to my foot, said, you created springs here unlike any I've ever seen. So my lower leg is exceedingly tight in ways that he says goes beyond all of the football players he sees and anything like that, and that he watched some videos and he just thinks, I created a foot spring and probably in conjunction with these shoes. So I never would have been successful in some ways without this spring. But it also was the source of my downfall. And now if I put those shoes on, even just a little bit, it rubs directly on the spot. And it echoes a study that just came out from Adam 10:40, actually, that says maybe super shoes increase some markers of injury risk, though that's questionable. So tell the listeners, what shoes do I have on my feet right now as a recording?

[A]

Look at those sexy Alpha Flies.

[B]

Nike Alpha Fly 3.

[A]

Are you gonna go to school? Pickup later in the Nike Alpha Fly 3.

[B]

Yeah, I've decided I can't come out of them if I wear any shoe. Maybe that's a sign I should get prp. If I'm wearing any shoe without a plate, there's major issues. But, yeah, I'm gonna just wear these into the ground for a while. Wear, like, for 600 miles. Solely because they feel the best in supporting the plantar as it relates to troning shoes. I think the best is probably the

[A]

HOKA Rocket X. I was gonna say I'm wearing the Rocket X trail right now, and I love them. They're light. I actually thought, like, for me, I was like, oh, I'm gonna be a tecton girly. But putting on the Rocket X, it feels lighter, it feels more nimble. It actually feels I can like bomb downhill in the tectons and I feel adjacent to that ability in the Rocket X. And so I'm excited about it.

[B]

I think the Rocket X is a great shoe. It's worn by most of the HOKA pros. So if you're out there looking for what's the next shoe that is safe? I think the HOKA Rocket X is a place to try. We got the Brooks Cascadia Elites in.

[A]

That's the fun part of the podcast, is we got it in. Means they just show up at our doorstep and we're like, hey, thanks Brooks, but we haven't tried them yet.

[B]

Haven't tried them yet. They, they look really good.

[A]

They're, they're a little more chunky.

[B]

They're definitely made for technical trails. Um, but athletes have excelled in them. Taylor Stack, who I coach, wore them for his podium performance at Sagama, which is really significant. Um, they were worn by, I believe, Mason Kopi to win the US Mountain Running Championships, who I coached this past weekend too.

[A]

Okay, high five, David. You had a coaching sweep at the US Mountain Running Championships.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Mason Kopi. Alisa Moran.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So cool.

[B]

Yeah, I mean just, just the amazing athletes has nothing to do with me. But the shoe design is interesting. Like the shoes that they're choosing for these steep mountain races. So that shows it's a fast shoe. So I'm really interested to see the Cascadia Elite. Any others? The ASIC shoe has some interesting marketing that's coming out soon. Haven't tried that.

[A]

I have a lot of athletes who like the Nike Ultra Fly too. Um, I personal, I didn't love them. They felt like a little chunky on technical trails. Maybe it was just user error of me on the day. Maybe I needed more hyper light caffeine.

[B]

Wasn't that when you were starting to deal with heart issues?

[A]

I had some major heart issues on that day. I remember running downhill just being like my legs really just don't feel like they have oxygen right now.

[B]

Yeah. I've learned that it's unfair to judge shoes unless I feel great because I always blame the shoes first.

[A]

I know I was like running down the creek path and I was like, God damn, I feel horrible. And like, you know, every once in a while having a chest flutter and just being like, it must be the Ultra Fly.

[B]

You know how there's the gut brain connection.

[A]

Yeah, there's the, the Shoe. The shoe muscle connection, the foot heart

[B]

connection is really, really strong, but worth a try. The Rocket X, I think is where I would lean toward right now if you're looking for the next shoe to try.

[A]

Also, they're kind of sexy shoes and

[B]

you can wear them for a ton of miles. I wore the pair I got for months. Wore them on fast trail runs, on steep ones, and they were really, really good. And if you see the video where I was bombing down Green Mountain here, those were in, you know, Rocket X's and so really good. She's also get sometimes get big toe blisters. I don't know what that's about.

[A]

I haven't had that. Actually. I had blisters in the Tecton, which seems to be a common problem, like heel blisters, but not in the Rocket

[B]

X. Yeah, I just have messed up feet, man.

[A]

Yeah, your feet have been on a spiritual journey.

[B]

Hopefully that doesn't say anything about my heart. Okay, let's get on to the study on reproducibility. Before that quick promo for Patreon, we just released the Anti aging. No, the Aging Athlete training plan. Not the anti aging.

[A]

You said that earlier and I was like, man, you really sound like you're on the Huberman podcast or something.

[B]

So go to patreon.com swap swap. Uh, that training plan is there. It's eight weeks long. It's designed for athletes over 40 that are looking to maximize what they can do. Megan just scrolled away from the listener testimonials on Patreon.

[A]

Oh, sorry. I was getting right to the study. I got so excited for the study.

[B]

Well, you can imagine what the listeners say. They say, you suck. You bitch. No, they say, thanks for this plan. It really helped me achieve my goals. Or heart rate zones or most of all now bonus podcast. 195 of them there where we answer questions every week. So much fun. So go to patreon. Starts at $5 a month. And if you can't afford it, just let us know and we'll get you a free link.

[A]

We have a lot of fun on those bonus podcasts. Your phone dinged during the episode this week. And when there was a moment that I was just like, get the fuck out of here, David. And I feel like people appreciated that.

[B]

We got a lot of positive feedback on you giving me a hard time on that bonus episode. Plus really cool science.

[A]

I give you a hard time with some other questions too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that was David Beatdown.

[A]

Yeah, sorry.

[B]

It happens.

[A]

I didn't, I didn't Mean to. It just flowed that way.

[B]

You know, sometimes I deserve it.

[A]

I don't know. I don't think you deserve that one actually, in retrospect.

[B]

Well, our listeners can go give us the verdict. Go to Patreon and check it out. Now we're going to talk about a harrowing study. This is a horror movie of studies. This is the Blair Witch Project of training studies. As we think about training theory and interventions. It's called Limited reproducibility of Individual Physiological Adaptations to Repeated Endurance Exercise training. It took 42 middle aged untrained men and women, um, and it had them do two by eight weeks of similar training interventions. So two eight week blocks and those were separated by an eight week detraining window. And within those eight week training blocks they did very similar designs in almost identical amounts of sessions. Either 45 minutes of cycling at 6 by 6 minute moderate intensity, 4 by 8 minutes or 4 by 5 minutes. So basically a bunch of different training thrown at these athletes for eight weeks at a time with eight weeks of

[A]

day training and between, interestingly, not a lot of aerobic training in there as you look at the, the way that they structured those intervals. But what I loved, I don't know if you saw this in the study is a lot of studies now have like pictorial representations of this study. Like they take clip art and they break down the study in a graphical abstract. And on the D training they just had someone hanging out and a lazy board for eight weeks. And for someone coming off of D training, I was like rough man.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I feel like they're mostly AI based graphics. It's at this stage, I'm not saying, I'm not accusing, but often when I see these graphics in exercise science now I'm like, that feels so strongly of AI to me and I don't know how I feel about that.

[A]

Actually this study did have. There was like a use of AI section in the study and it talked about how they used AI to just like edit their writing and to edit their R code. And I appreciate actually that more scientists are being open. It depends on the journal too as to how they use AI in the scientific process. And I think it's a good practice to be transparent.

[B]

Good practice to be transparent. But, but when does it become AI doing the work for you and how does that affect the intellectual development process?

[A]

I mean they have to be like, we took the graphical representation of the Lazy Boy from AI.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But a good example is I did this post on Patreon about iron supplementation that was a huge flowchart. And after I made the flowchart, it gave me an option. Do you want AI to refine this? I did in Google spreadsheet. So it just said, can you do this with Gemini? And it's like, sure, let me see what this looks like. And it turned back something that looked so beautiful and also so antiseptic and would have taken away my thought. And so I was like, okay, I shouldn't do that. But I see the temptation and it makes me scared for the future of science. Because if AI can do that, the simple graphical representations, which it obviously can, it can also do the entire paper if you give it baseline data. And I'm sure that's already happening.

[A]

Oh, I'm sure it's happening. I'm sure it's happening in the editing process. Granted, sometimes I'm reading a scientific paper and it's so bad that I'm like, could you just use AI? Like, it would be better. I know not. This paper was great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not any specific paper.

[A]

Yeah, Sometimes it is very helpful. Like actually in your flowchart, you are missing one iron category. Did it flag that? Did it recognize that?

[B]

I. I don't know. I. I don't think it did. Um, it was pretty embarrassing, actually.

[A]

It missed my. I reviewed it post bike and I was blissed out and hyper light caffeine. I'm like, that looks great, man. And I didn't realize you were missing a category.

[B]

Yeah, but AI is going to change science, and I think it has to make us even more skeptical about studies. Because what's going to happen is you're going to get massive data sets that are thrown at these systems without a significant hypothesis, without a hypothesis that's generated to be tested. And you're going to say, find things in this data and you will be able to find things in big enough data sets that are pretty significant and should put our warning bells up. Unless the hypothesis being tested is very obviously the one that we're aiming to test. And I think that's a problem across science historically in big data models, but especially now because you don't even need to start with something specific to look for. You can just have a whole like random number generator set of data, essentially.

[A]

Well, I'm really curious to see. So, you know, most papers, at least to this point, or at least to three years ago, had a statistician or an epidemiologist, especially within the health field, on paper, and I'm curious to see how that trends, like, you know, if the paper the percentage of papers that have a statistician starts to go down in time as that's being replaced by AI. And that's tricky. That's really tricky.

[B]

Yeah. My statistician is Grok. And interestingly all GROK says to everything is p equals 0.00, but both zeros have a dot in the middle. Now I'm just realizing it's boobs.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

That's a really good joke.

[A]

That's so incredible.

[B]

Statistics joke. Key values, bitches. Okay, okay, back to the study. Actually, it reminds me, I was on the album Back podcast, if you're looking for a really interesting podcast with Rory Linkletter. And it's very science based. And I think I only made one joke the whole episode.

[A]

What? People are going to love that actually. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And one of the comments that I was tagged in when I went to just like approve the collaboration request and so I just saw the comment there was. I like David when he's being serious. Enough of that bullshit.

[A]

Okay, Ouch.

[B]

I'm like, touche. But then I say back to that. P equals 00 with two dots in the middle.

[A]

Boobs, bitch. That's the primary boobs you get in this house. No, Megan, you like my bits too?

[B]

Yeah, I love your bits. Big old sixes.

[A]

If you have statistical bits, I'm happy with that.

[B]

Okay, so. So what they saw with the study is that the baseline values in both 8 week training windows were similar. So the researchers were saying that gives you a good platform to be able to evaluate how they adapt across both eight week training windows with an eight week detraining period. And here's the money finding reproducibility was poor for hemoglobin mass, muscle citrate synthesis, activity, capillaries per fiber, aka angiogenesis, 15 minute power output, and almost everything else they measured. So. So reproducibility across individual DA values from training seems to not be able to line up, which is very, very scary because almost every study relies on a fundamental assumption that you're going to see similar adaptations for an individual when you apply the same type of stimulus multiple times. Otherwise you're really up Schitt's creek in trying to design studies with good enough effect sizes to see, you know, statistically significant outcomes.

[A]

And I think that applies a lot to, to when we think about large coaching groups, like you think about like large college groups or high school track groups, or like even large professional groups. And athletes are gonna respond differently to training based on a number of different individual variables that are probably really hard to untangle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, depends a lot on health context. Depends a lot on just like muscle fiber typology. We can make a list of, you know, hundreds of variables that that depends on. Yeah. And I feel like it shows that like, like training also needs to be individualized too. When you look at how athletes are responding in such different directions.

[B]

Yeah, Individualized across time, especially that, like, you can't have a fundamental assumption about how athletes will respond to training, even based on their past training. And thus you have to be updating it all the time. And that's something that I've been thinking about a lot recently. So in coaching athletes that are trying to maybe qualify for the Olympics, that's our ultimate goal. You know, when you're thinking about that level of performance and that their lives are essentially on the line, their professional

[A]

lives, actually, I feel like that's a lot like breathing. You're like, I should not really think about that too much because as a coach, you're like, if I'm going to think about the fact that their lives are on the line right now, it can sometimes get in the way of internal, like, like subconscious coaching processes. And so sometimes I have to put that aside and be like, what would my brain say right now without thinking about that.

[B]

And by lives on the line, obviously it's not life or death. It doesn't matter. We all die. All that good stuff.

[A]

It's Fritos on the table.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, putting those Fritos on the table. Um, but there's a temptation to be like, all right, this is working, so I should apply this more consistently in the future or not. And I think it has to be so much more complicated as the study found. So here's a quote. These findings indicate that physiological adaptability to endurance training does not reflect a stable individual specific attribute, but instead emerge from dynamic and context dependent biological processes. And then one more quote. Collectively, these within individual designs demonstrate that individuals classified as non responders under one condition often exhibit robust adaptations when the training stimulus or outcome has changed. So we don't. On one hand, you change up training and athletes should respond. On the other hand, we don't even know how they're going to respond at all. From baseline amounts of data, that training stimulus and adaptation involves 10,000 flowcharts. And even though we think we're isolating the ones that count when we say these are your workouts, we are actually not because it is so much more holistic. And so that's the key word of the day is training is holistic. As much as we want to anchor it in science.

[A]

And I think if you feel like you're not responding to some things, throw something different at it and see what happens and kind of start playing around with those variables, which is what we often do as coaches. And it gives me like, I don't know, I think about the high school athlete that's on a high school track team. And I feel for those high school track coaches because you have 80 athletes showing up at 3pm for track practice and you're like, it's basically impossible to do individualized training. But think about the athlete that is not adapting and responding to that one specific type of training and, and takes away that as a conclusion that they're not an adapter or responder, they're not fast, and it's like maybe they just needed something different this whole time. And so I think if you've been that person in a training group, it's like, try something different, try a new stimulus. It's not your fault if you're not responding to training. It might just be some intrinsic property of your physiology.

[B]

Yeah. And my hottest take is this is a huge problem with a lot of the best coaches in the world is that they take what works for the one athlete and say, all right, we're going to do a watered down version of this for everybody, or the same version, and hope they respond to it. Like, that's something that. When I'm on these podcasts or whatever, we often talk about Jess McLean's training. And people assume that what Jess McLean does is what everybody does. And it's like, no, what I said on the podcast is Jess McLean's A Freak in the best way, both mentally and physically. And so, yes, there are similar principles. Like everyone's doing hill strides and focusing on aerobic development and all that, building power. But after that, you have to get creative and really focus on the individual and be open to change. And athletes need to do that too. And what it brings up to me actually, to end this is the study on mice that we talked about a month or two ago.

[A]

This is our segment on rat News

[B]

where they went into the mouse brain. And I think it was actually rat brain, you're right. And knocked out certain pathways. And those athletes, those mice, those athletes,

[A]

we call everyone athletes.

[B]

Everyone's an athlete.

[A]

Anyone who sweats is an athlete.

[B]

And if you can't sweat, you're still an athlete.

[A]

Actually, there are some conditions where you can't swim.

[B]

Exactly. Still an athlete.

[A]

You're moving, you're an Athlete boom.

[B]

Even if you can't move

[A]

rocks or

[B]

athletes too, um, but they knocked out those pathways and those, those rats didn't adapt even as they trained similarly. My guess is part of what we're seeing here is not a physiological context shift, it's a psychological context shift. That being positive about yourself being in a hyper light state, you know, this hyper light caffeine probably helps you adapt a little bit better than being negative or down. And I think those types of elements of training are totally lost. No one's talking about, well, being positive about yourself or having hope actually does influence your adaptation rate in ways we don't understand. And this study points out that we have to take a much more holistic view to adaptation generally. And the whole goal of training is to adapt. It's not just to accumulate stress.

[A]

Well, have you ever had a run and it's just been kind of like a hard run? Maybe your heart rate's high, maybe the brain is a little bit judgy and sometimes that happens to me a lot. And I've actually thought about that study later on in the day just to be like, you know, don't anchor in that run, think about like, you know, pull the positives from it because I feel like it is so much stronger for adaptation.

[B]

Yeah, it's one of the most important things and I think in coaching the most important thing is just that you help an athlete feel good about themselves in the context of what they're doing and people push back against that touchy feely stuff. But I think the touchy feely stuff is so anchored in physiology because, because on the one hand you have the touchy feely end of. Well, if you believe in yourself, if you're able to just access a little bit more of your brain on each day, you're able to perform just slightly better, a little bit more economically in that 0.1% over time compounds to where that psychological process is a real physiological signal. But the part that no one thinks about really is, well, that post exercise psychological context is essential to see how that athlete adapts long term. And I am not positive, but I think as a coach that's the one place where I view my role as non negotiable, where there is like one fundamental like requirement I have which is to hopefully help that help athletes feel a little bit better about themselves and what they're doing in the world. And that goes far beyond, you know, training obviously. But even if it was only about training, that would be the place to focus.

[A]

Well, I feel like Oftentimes that's both physical and mental. It's like actually feeling good in training from recovery from high carb, from all of the different, like, structures of, like, more aerobic training. And not over training allows. Allows you to actually feel good about yourself because you're recovering. And this brings me to David. You have fucking crushed coaching lately. And it makes me so happy. Like, I feel like we have our RAT news segment, and then we have our David coaching news segment of Emily Ventures at the New York Mini 10K. Ran a minute PR on that course on a really hot day. Like, these were not good running conditions.

[B]

Central Park Hills, too.

[A]

Central Park Hills. And to see you take that level of an athlete and, like, open up her talents by just allowing her to feel good on a daily basis is so cool.

[B]

Well, thank you so much. It's. With an athlete like that, again, you're at such a level that probably has nothing to do with me. It's more just their physiology is shining for whatever reason and psychology, like, they're tough as hell. Um, but it's just an interesting place to be. I never thought I'd have this opportunity, you know, starting as just putting a shingle out there and saying, here, hey, I'll coach people for free, and then eventually trail runners because of you. Right. Like, the whole gateway to this process was we were able to say, megan Roach does this type of training.

[A]

Well, I was skeptical at that point, though, because I was like, david's gonna coach all my competitors. They're all gonna be so good. It's gonna make my athletic life a lot harder. But now I've come around to it, and I'm your wing woman. I'm like, I'm recruiting. I'm out there like, DMing people, sliding into the DMs on your behalf. And it's been a cool evolution of my journey of, like, seeing that and, you know, not caring about myself so much as a competitor in the sense that, like, you know, I also just. I want to raise the, like, you know, just raise the sport in general. And I think you allowing athletes to feel good does that. So I'm your wing woman. Well, count me in forever.

[B]

It's the kindest thing in the world, but it all comes back to your brilliance and talking about this. So, no, it has been fun, especially as my foot has been a challenging part of the process. I am loving running more than ever, just as a fan of the sport, whether it's Tom Evans who's, you know, coached by Scott Johnston and just being obsessed with what he's doing. I can't wait to see where that goes. Or these athletes I actually get to, you know, help individually. It's just most fun job in the world. Anybody out there, like, you can probably imagine, it's the best.

[A]

Well, I had a reflection on Monday morning yesterday. We're actually recording this podcast on a Tuesday that, like, I really don't have the Sunday scaries for going to work. Like, I love what we do. And then we fucking bombed a podcast yesterday.

[B]

Sorry, this one's coming out a little late. If you're a quick listener.

[A]

Well, it was like you were a little rough at the start, then I was a little rough, then I was fully the rate limiting equation.

[B]

You weren't rate limiting.

[A]

Megan and I had the moment. I was like, I was just reflecting on the no Sunday scaries, and then we just boofed a podcast episode on a Monday. It's like, you know, sometimes it's also a little hard to.

[B]

We booed it.

[A]

We booed it.

[B]

We boofed it straight up there. Yeah, you did. Amazingly. Just moving with it. Like, you know, everything in life is hard if you do it all the time and have to show up. And that's the beautiful part about it.

[A]

I feel like one in every 20 podcast episodes. I get in my head a little bit and I think about talking as I'm talking, and that's a bad recipe. Recipe.

[B]

Yeah. That gets back to the breathing.

[A]

I know. You really can't. I'm doing two, two, three, threes on the podcast episode, and that's not good.

[B]

Okay, let's get onto the carbs and boat study. Uh, before that, I actually want to tell a story about Kate from Patreon. So she messaged us last week, and on the Patreon bonus episode, we did this entire discussion of fear. She. She was very scared before her first race, and she was running a 50

[A]

mile race and we were talking about the fact, like, it's so normal. I mean, I still get scared before running 50 miles. It's a long way.

[B]

I had a panic attack at Forest Hill on a live stream seen by a million people and then got a lot of hate mail for it. So I understand fear. And then came back stronger than ever because of the lessons learned from that. And she went out and she did great at her 50 miler. She listened to bonus podcast on the way there. That was really cool and just so exciting. Then we got to meet her at the Leadville meet and greet that we did last week, which was really fun. We never get to do that. We did it on date night. It was so meaningful to us.

[A]

It was date night with a bunch of people that we love. It was a 54 times date. It was instead of a double date. It was many people.

[B]

Yeah. And we say like, we love you guys all the time. And it just pointed out how real that feeling is. Right. Like, I loved everyone we got to meet there. But in that process, I got to do the draw for free entries to Leadville that they gave away at this group run. And there was one free entry to the Leadville 100. And who do I draw but Kate? And so she's going to the Leadville 100. And it was the coolest, like through the Looking glass moment of, you know, the maybe 150 people that were there and it's her. I feel like there's the universe saying something about fear and that that fear we all have. It's okay. Run toward the danger. That's where the good things happen. Now let's get on to a study on carbs and bones. Our favorite types of topics, as everyone knows. In fact, did you see I sent you a study this morning?

[A]

Oh, I didn't.

[B]

Opinion piece was I. I was out.

[A]

I ran early this morning and my, like my headphones read what you, what you send to me. And sometimes they narrate videos and they're like, like two children sitting on a couch. But it was 6:15 in the morning and I was like, oh, no, both of our children are awake. But I missed the city.

[B]

That's just life. But this was at 5:45am it was in sports medicine. It was called something about fueling, where the normal cast of characters, this time led by Dan Plews, is arguing against high carb intake. Like very high carb intake. And I'm like, why are we still having this discussion? I feel like the actual impact in the endurance world relative to the number of studies these people put out and not studies. I mean, this is an opinion piece is so outsized. It's so strange. I feel like all the high carb people, I feel like most of them are just like, I'll just do this quietly. All the low carb people are like, I need every single person to, you know, get infected by this zombie virus. I have, I don't know, I haven't, I haven't actually read it yet. I just read the abstract and was like, oh, God, not this again.

[A]

Oh, it is. I mean, I had the reflection that we did get pushback when we were talking about high carb before high carb was really. High carb.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Actually, someone called you the godfather of high carb the other day on the

[B]

out and Back podcast.

[A]

On the out and Back podcast. And I actually. I really like that term.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

But you took a. I mean, that was a hard. It was not easy to be a godfather of high carb when everyone was like, what are you doing? But now I love how, like, universally accepted it is within the world of, like, ultra and endurance events and even, like, shorter events, too. And I just think that's, like, it's been a really fun process to see.

[B]

And I think the thing is, so high carb is performance, obviously, like, it's unequivocal at this stage that it is performance because you can look to the

[A]

real world and it's health.

[B]

That's the point that where you're going to.

[A]

Yeah. I had the moment running this morning and I was just like, I feel good all of the time. And it's high carb.

[B]

Yeah. High carb is health. And that's why we beat this drum so relentlessly. It's because performance. Very interesting. Fun to talk about in a podcast, but you know how we feel about that. And honestly, at the end of the day, if we're not coaching you, it's fine if you don't do it. But the reason we say about it all the time is, like, we don't necessarily care that much about performance. In the big scheme of things, though, it's our professional passion. What we care about is people being healthy. And in the training process, high carb is where health comes from. And that brings us to the study, and it also brings us to how we talk about this subject generally is like, I was lucky enough to have an athlete reach out recently and about coaching, and this is an extremely elite athlete. And in the process of talking, we talked about eating history. And I was just like, look, the one unequivocal commitment you have to make to me is that we are going to take this leap to high carb. Um, and the reason had nothing. This athlete's been performing great without that. Um, and I think there's more. There's. But I don't know for sure. But the point being that by making that leap, we are going to touch every part of physiology and psychology that will make this person happier and healthier long term. And that is the ultimate role at the end of the day of a support system, whether it's a coach or someone else.

[A]

Okay. My one question about high carb, though, and health is I feel like high carb is allowing athletes to feel good. It's allowing athletes to push the boundaries. But I feel like we're in this trending era right now of ultra running where like 40 mile long runs, 50 mile long runs are trending. And I think that's a result of high carb is you can actually do those to some ext without, I mean some athletes without breaking down. I think it causes a lot of athletes to break down, but maybe not some.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And do you think we're now as a result of high carb, starting to push into health boundaries that are tricky?

[B]

I don't know. It's tough to know, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's tough to know if high carb is the driver there.

[B]

I wouldn't say a six or eight hour bike is unhealthy.

[A]

No. Right.

[B]

And so maybe it's not in this context. I think it's a place to constantly reevaluate my biases. Personally I, I do not like that trend at all.

[A]

I think, I think they're fine in small amounts or in races obviously, but like you know, consistent 40 mile training, long runs scares me from a health perspective and just a rolling the dice injury perspective. You do that enough and you're rolling the dice again and again.

[B]

Maybe health. I don't know how much hot takey I want to be on this podcast, but what I talked about in the out and back podcast you can go listen is more if we don't see it when performance margins are narrow, when the competitive part pre pressure is truly high, there's a reason for that. And you know, you do not see this in marathon training at all.

[A]

But you can make the argument that they're, they're racing a marathon, they're not racing, you know, a hundred K. And

[B]

I would make the argument that if you understood how good the top marathoners were, you would do it would apply to everybody. In the same way you made a wonderful argument the other week about functional threshold power and cycling that FTP measures one hour power and every cyclist is focused on it whether they're racing 20 hour events or 20 minute events. Because that is the core principle that touches every variable in running we don't have that variable and thus I feel

[A]

like we don't optimize for it which becomes so tricky.

[B]

And if we did, if we had something approximate, it doesn't need to be the same. It can be like hill climbing or whatever. You would see across the sport that just how like amazing the competitive pressure has led training theory to become at the top end of like road running. And if we saw that, we would also understand. Okay, well then those principles applied with wrinkles from ultra is probably the way to go solely because, you know, the athlete at unbound 200 in the bike is not doing fundamentally different training, even if they are doing some wrinkles. Like, I love what Tom Evans is doing and I think that's really cool. And it works for Tom Evans because Tom Evans is also one of the fastest runners in the sport. Right. He's like so, so fast. And that being said, I have to check my own biases that I might need to move with the sport too. And you know, I have athletes doing.

[A]

And we are moving with the sport. I mean, we are giving longer long runs. But you know, it's a, a matter of how much, like how often. And I think that that's a like, fundamental question for our sport that I'm curious to see where that goes.

[B]

Yeah, both on our minds a lot right now as we see Strava each weekend. Um, and I think getting back to the health point, it brings up studies like this. Low carbohydrate availability and recovery from fasted aerobic exercise negatively affects markers of bone turnover in males. Um, it took 12 men in two glycogen depletion trials followed by a three hour recovery window. So within that three hour recovery window is when they did little alternations. Um, one of the windows had 1 gram per kg per hour of a carb drink. The next had a nutrient free control. And then after three hours either adequate carb intake or low carb intake the rest of the day.

[A]

And this is a classic two by two design of manipulating two independent variables. Here you have the three hour window and then you have the window across 24 hours, the rest of the day. And in that, like that carb group, they were controlling for calories. So these were isocholoral caloric diets. So the athletes are consuming the same number of total calories, but the higher carb group was consuming higher calories than the lower carb group. And the lower carb group was getting that primarily from fat.

[B]

Yeah. And then they looked at markers of bone turnover and Megan, I really don't wanna get into these acronyms personally. So do you feel comfortable doing the results here?

[A]

I can, I can roll with this. This is actually, I spent a lot of my dissertation commenting on some of these bone markers. The tricky part about these bone markers is they don't always like have relationships with long term outcomes like fracture and bone density. But I do think it's interesting to think about what's happening to bone turnover on a short term timeframe, like within the window of 24 hours.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And what did they find?

[A]

You're like, I'm not gonna stop delaying popcorn, Megan. They found that CTX1 concentrations, which is a bone biomarker that is a marker for bone breakdown or bone resorption, was significantly lower in the group that was getting in adequate quick carbohydrates, Both at the 3 hour and 24 hour post exercise window, compared with the low carbohydrate group.

[B]

Yeah, and then there was also P1NP.

[A]

Actually, we did it. Do you remember the podcast? We've talked about this before. So this is in the flip side, a marker of bone formation. And you called it pimp. Do you remember that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now I cannot unsee that.

[B]

I don't know what you heard about me, but you can't get a doll out of me.

[A]

And P1MP was literally in my dissertation and now I can't unsee it. My brain every time is just like

[B]

pimp, because I'm a motherfucking pimp. And that was significantly higher in the adequate carb group, which should show bone formation. So, I mean, that's pretty fantastic. And here's a conclusion. Adequate carbohydrate intake during recovery from fasted aerobic exercise mitigates bone resorption markers and promotes bone formation markers compared with low carbohydrate intake. These results emphasize the importance of carbohydrate availability for skeletal protection in populations exposed to high physical demands, such as military personnel and endurance athletes.

[A]

Okay, but my favorite quote of the paper was talking about the mechanism behind why carbs matter for bone turnover and how that can be a productive stimulus in the long term. The independent importance of carbohydrate availability may be due to osteoblasts. So osteoblasts are bone building, being heavily reliant on glycolysis for collagen synthesis and matrix production, making them sensitive to fluctuations in carbohydrate availability and insulin signaling. And so to me, like, carbs are so important for long term bone health. Um, and there's been other studies that have shown that this study is looking at very short term bone biomarkers that can sometimes be a proxy for long term bone health. But we see it again and again in athletes that are not getting in adequate carbs is just how dangerous it is for hormones for bone health for bone stress injuries, and how challenging that is.

[B]

Yeah, and I Think the design here of fasted aerobic exercise is interesting because it measures extremes, right. Like you want to stress the body in an extreme state to be able to see what happens on the other end. And even though we're not seeing athletes do fasted training anymore, being in a low carb state during training, so only doing 30 grams of carbs per hour or whatever when you're going longer, that also causes very similar signaling mechanisms that, you know, obviously you need to then restore your glycogen levels for recovery and adaptation. That's obvious. But that same signal is seen, you know, for any athlete that's recovering from training. And if you're not getting in the carbs, subsequently, it doesn't need to be immediately after training, but throughout the day. Like if your carb intake isn't adequate, you're probably gonna see this even if you're not doing fasted training. And that's super significant because, you know, bone health is maybe the biggest epidemic amongst runners and we see it all the time and it's usually starts here. My guess is that you magnify these out for months and years and it's why you start to see Z scores on DEXA scans that get into the major negative numbers.

[A]

I think some of the challenges are that a lot of the athletes that I've worked with that have had disordered eating or eating disorders, there's this just like pervasive fear of carbs. And I think that can, that can come and start from many different areas. But I think the hard part is sometimes those athletes are like, I'm getting the calories in, but it's not the macronutrients that you need to support bones and like eat the bread, eat the satisfaction bombs, eat the tasty carb things because those support the long term health.

[B]

Bread makes champions.

[A]

Bread really does make it. Bread makes strong fucking bones. Yeah.

[B]

It's why Leo is going to have the strongest bones you've ever seen.

[A]

Every night that we go out to dinner, Leo asked me to drive into Panera before we go to our dinner place to get him bread and butter. I do.

[B]

It gets back to our discussion. I was like, I just want him to enjoy, enjoy food and love it. And his thing right now is we just have to go into Panera and get. They can't be a baguette, it can't be a whole baguette.

[A]

He wants like the, the bread that you get on the side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So last night I went in and I was like, how am I gonna just ask for the Bread that you get on the side. So I got the whole baguette and I carried the whole baguette out of the car. And he was like, no, I just want the small.

[B]

I need strong bones. And that one doesn't cut it. So Megan went in and cut that one up into a million pieces.

[A]

Came back with Fred.

[B]

Okay, so here's a connected study. Effects of collagen peptide supplementation on bone turnover, cytokine and inflammatory markers in female distance runners. A randomized pilot study. It took 22 female participants that were doing more than 35 miles per week. So advanced athletes here, and they had them do four weeks of 20 grams of collagen or isocor maltodextrin. So isoc carbohydrate supplement. And the collagen was. What's that brand?

[A]

Vital proteins.

[B]

Vital proteins. It's on the feed.

[A]

It's on the feed. It's also in a lot of different places. You can get it in like whole foods. And also some of the formulations of it are NSF certified for sport, which is great.

[B]

This is the one I often take. I take this or momentous every day as I'm trying to heal from this plantar fascia injury.

[A]

I was excited about that. I was a little bit curious. So they're comparing vital proteins. So the 20 grams of collagen to maltodextrin and vital proteins is a protein source. And I actually think it might've been a stronger study if they compared that to like the equivalent of whey protein. Whey protein. Um, and I think that would've been a more interesting question.

[B]

That is a very important point here.

[A]

I understand why they didn't do that. Because. Because you might not actually find something. And it's more interesting to find something. But I think oftentimes when we talk about collagen supplementation, the pushback can be like, if you just take protein, it might cause something similar.

[B]

Yeah. And I don't know what you heard about me, but there was an increase in P, N, P, very similar to the last study here. Any other significant findings as it relates to bone health or other things?

[A]

They also find some reduction in IL6, which is an inflammatory marker in these endurance trained athletes. And so, so I think that was helpful. This is a pilot study, but I do think it shows that. I like this study and how it builds on the last one, that thinking about protein intake, thinking about collagen intake can actually impact some of these short term bone biomarkers.

[B]

And maybe to vote for just a scoop of collagen each day. I've been a huge fan of it as I'm coming back and obviously hasn't been the best road for me, but we'll see. I think it's not because of the collagen. I think that's gotten me as close as I could be.

[A]

You know, your hair's looking pretty fly. Is it? Yeah. Well, some of the side effects of collagen.

[B]

Oh, let's see.

[A]

Let's take. Take off that feed hat. Oh, look at that. The pubes are just going so strong. They actually really are flowing.

[B]

Wouldn't it be really funny if you were talking about my actual pubes just like rubbing them side to side? Yeah, yeah. So like, you know, collagen. Interesting data. We've talked about it before. This is another study that just says it's worth it if you have concerns about bone health to just throw this into your morning coffee or tea just before your run. Some solid evidence there, but not dispositive by any means. Um, and then the final thing I actually wanna talk about before we get to the question and answer is there was a study that we're not speaking about here, that did a low energy availability trial. Always really interesting when you see that. And they did normal caloric intake and then a low energy availability, but with more carbs, and then a low energy availability where athletes elevated protein. So this is what you often see when athletes are overthinking their nutrition process processes or athletes that have, you know, gone into cycles in the past where they're just like, oh, should I have this carb? Or whatever.

[A]

There's a lot of internalization of fear around carbs and that's like, that's been pervasive.

[B]

So basically the thing to remember here is that they're having a group that's doing low energy availability but having a solid amount of carbs still. And there's a group that's doing low energy availability and having high protein, which is what a lot of people suggest online. And the group that had low energy availability with higher protein had their performance tank, but the group that had low energy availability was mostly carbs. Not mostly carbs, but solid amounts of carbs just reduced, proportionally, didn't have their performance tanked in the same way. So carbs are a performance signal even when we're talking about athletes that are in deficit. Um, so that's a vote, like for athletes that are told by their doctor that they need to do this, or athletes that are on GLP1s or whatever, still make sure your Carbs are coming in. Like, carbs matter for everybody. No matter what your context is.

[A]

It is so important, and it matters outside of training just as much as it matters inside of training. Like, I think sometimes the magic of high carbs carb training is it's broken. Some of that, like, brain connection to the fear of carbs is because athletes are like, oh, my gosh, I need to do high carb for performance. And it's easier to do that in a performance context than it is outside of training. And sometimes I feel like the gels and the higher carb within training becomes the gateway to feel good and to be like, okay, we'll do the bread outside of training, too.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Do we need to write an opinion article in sports medicine, Megan? Honestly, maybe we should at some point.

[A]

Oh, my God. Academic publishing, man.

[B]

It's opinion article. Those are easy as shit.

[A]

Yeah, those are easy. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, not easy, but, like.

[A]

But you. I mean, it's. You still go through a lot.

[B]

Megan, as a lawyer, I'm fine with that. Law journals are a little bit more complicated, I assume, than sports med.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's probably true.

[B]

I'm not sure. But, like, in law journals, they're looking at. Is your period italicized or not? Every lawyer out there just had their brain, like, short circuit because you're probably having flashbacks to this. But people will look to determine if in your footnotes, your period is italicized, and if it's not, that is a problem. You're in trouble.

[A]

A problem. I actually. You put me on this is this amazing nepotism, but, like, nepotism.

[B]

I'm a talent identifier, Megan. I'm, like, at the NFL combine with a stopwatch, being like, dude, my girl's good.

[A]

I'm like, I'm gonna give you my butter knife. So you put me on the law review journal when I was a graduate student to help in the business school.

[B]

I needed you to help.

[A]

Yeah. And I helped, but we. We had dates where we would just read every single sentence out loud to look for those things, and it was actually really fun.

[B]

Did you get helped, your resume at all?

[A]

No. Why did you say yes? Why did I do.

[B]

Why did I ask you?

[A]

I loved you.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

That's the ultimate form of. That's like, the ultimate form of love

[B]

that is incredibly meaningful that you said yes to me because I just needed help. I was underwater, and, like, I need, like, the amount of trust you have to put in people in these positions. Like, it feels.

[A]

And you should not trust me. When it comes to italicized periods, like. And you probably knew that early on,

[B]

Megan, you're the queen of periods now.

[A]

I always have been.

[B]

Italicized menstrual cycles. No, I mean, I. It is interesting, but I trusted you, though. I trusted that if it mattered to me, it would matter to you.

[A]

And it did. It mattered a lot. And that's. That's an act of love because, like, literally, it has done nothing for my resume over these years. I spent a lot of time with you in the law journal.

[B]

Funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you remember what article you were in charge of? Because, like, the way it worked is I would delegate an article to. I think you were an executive editor or something.

[A]

Yeah, I was an exact.

[B]

There were. There were multiple.

[A]

You put me in the C suite of journals. I was the chief executive editor.

[B]

It was so helpful. It was so helpful. You were amazing at what you did. But do you remember what your article was?

[A]

You know what? I have no idea.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that's why I was like. It was honestly really unimportant to the path of my career. I was really doing it for love. So all I cared about was the periods.

[B]

Well, thank God you helped me get through it. That is a flashback to, like. I think it's stressful now when people will post weird Instagrams about me talking about Gnomeo and say, like, does this guy know what he's talking about? Or whatever. Which is something I dealt with last week, which is wild. Same stuff that used to happen with high carb.

[A]

Which is kind of funny because it's like, Gnomeo like, really does work. And I'm like, if there's a foil against it, that makes it slower. Adoption. It's gonna be easier for athletes to perform.

[B]

Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, I'm not worried about that sort of thing. It's more just, like, it's interesting. And now that stresses me out a little still. But back then, everything that you're dealing with is, like, it feels like your future's on the line. And I got through it, so, you know, with your help.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You were so good. Okay, let's get on to question and answer. Before that, anything to talk about. Let's do a little promo for Wahoo treadmills. They're so freaking good. Just absolutely loving it for our pro athletes right now. Like, a bunch of them have wahoos and you've hooked them up. They're able to do workouts on it that are just mind blowingly good. And I think it's been one of the game changing things for these road athletes, but also for TR athletes. Look at what Tom Evans is doing. You know that's on a treadmill. Treadmill. There's so much we can do on these machines. So go check out our show notes which has a link to the Wahoo treadmill. If you use code swap at checkout, you get advanced 400 fan that will make sure no sweat ever gets near that thing and keeps you cool and gets you running fast. So go check out Wahoo now.

[A]

They're so smooth that it's genuinely fun. Do you think I can get back to uphill treadmill threshold soon?

[B]

Next week?

[A]

Yeah, for sure. We're gonna be so back to uphill treadmill thresholds.

[B]

Why are you so into we are so back.

[A]

It's just a fun thing to say. It's like, it's an empowering. I get it. Yeah, yeah. It's actually sometimes kind of fun to say when you're not sure either. You're like, we are so bad. Gaslighting myself right now.

[B]

That's exactly where I am as I'm recording, like hopeful. But we'll see.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so question, answer. First one on breathing. Good morning. And David and Megan. I've been doing a lot of Zone 2 work as I'm recovering from Achilles injury. And I've been listening to Jack Daniels book and he has a section dedicated to breathing and specifically talking about the science of 2 in, 2 out and 3 in 3 out versus 4 in, 4 of 10 out, out. I think that means like how many steps you take per breath.

[A]

I'm guessing it sounds a lot more like an NBA offense or defense than shooting. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I feel like these should be

[B]

like complicated sports schematics or honestly, like orgy instructions. Four in, four out.

[A]

Let's go.

[B]

Yeah, of course, since I'm doing a lot of slow running, I'm not trying to pay attention to this. And I'm usually doing four in, four out.

[A]

Oh, they're going max. I mean, if you have choices. I don't even know what these mean, quite frankly, but I'm like, if I'm given in. This is a multiple choice question. I'm going four in, four out.

[B]

Okay. It's good to know. I'll remember for your birthday. I'm wondering if this just takes care of itself when I speed up or should I be practicing the two and two out. So the lower numbers would mean you're breathing more rapidly so your. Your breath rate goes up. And breath rate is very highly associated with like you know LT1, LT2. So you specifically have VT1, VT2. So ventilatory threshold one, ventilatory threshold two. Which probably do correspond with this scientifically. So then thank you. Love you guys. That's what they said. Um, also I'm saying it to you. And so what do we think on this? I think the big thing is that breathing sorts itself out if you don't think about it. And if you do think about it, you're probably just going to try to, you know, adopt body signals that shouldn't be changed. Um, I was going to say hijack body signals. That word's probably not okay to say anymore.

[A]

That is not good.

[B]

So I just want to. The adopt didn't really make sense there, but I just feel very strongly that involuntary pro processes are meant to be involuntary. And don't think about it, otherwise you're going to be digging yourself a whole just emotionally and anxiety wise over time.

[A]

And I feel like a lot of the questions that we get on breathing are like, I am slowing down to practice this specific breathing structure. Oh God.

[B]

Nose breathing.

[A]

Oh yeah. It's like if you have to slow down to practice breathing, just don't do it.

[B]

Yeah. You know there's a whole book on nose breathing.

[A]

Oh yeah, we should probably read it.

[B]

We should probably read it and no, I understand.

[A]

Actually nose breathing is like, you know, at nighttime nose breathing can actually be be fundamentally game changing for athletes sleep. I just think it's different when you know, you're trying to run fast and get oxygenation through every orifice possible.

[B]

There's hostage tape, speaking of hijacking, where people put it over their mouths before they go to sleep.

[A]

It sounds, that sounds terrible.

[B]

It sounds really strange. But it points out just how much this thought process has pervaded certain areas of like biohacking worlds. And I think breathing definitely matters. But you talk to any coach, zero coach coaches will tell you to focus on breathing. Like nose breathing is not a thing that athletes should focus on. The only athletes that can do it in an economic way just have interestingly shaped noses. And my guess is that the coach that's recommending that also has an interestingly shaped nose and assumes everybody else is the same. They have zero nose empathy. Like for noses like mine that are not cut out for this, you should

[A]

have a lot of nose empathy. So you've broken your nose many different times and Leo kicked you in the nose this weekend and you're like, wait a second, Leo, I'm gonna go to the mirror and reset my nose. And you you just clunked that thing to the side.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It was facing north, and I wanted it to face east. We were good. After I did that, I think it probably indicates there's something deeply wrong with my nose, but you can see why. I understand how nose breathing doesn't work for some. But most of all, it's just not a proxy for VT1, unless you are specifically controlling for nose size and, you know, functional olfactory shape. And that's just not what's happening. And I think because it can be a proxy across the general population for maybe an overarching thing about zone two, similar to probably four in, four output out, it leads to these broader conclusions being made. But it has zero relevance individually and could just make someone super anxious. So breathe normally. Breathe through every orifice when you run. Don't sweat it, because if you do, I think it's probably gonna go down weird states. And I was like this when I was a kid. I overthought all this stuff because I thought runners did. Because I've read books like this, and it just led me to spending years waiting for breakthroughs that should have happened sooner.

[A]

Okay. Also, Jack Daniels is awesome, and he's done. He's pioneered, like, a lot of great coaching materials. I do wonder, too, like, you know, if in the modern world he would change some of those thoughts on breathing, just given the technology we have, the tools that we have, the ways that we can measure things like ventilatory threshold, like, if you would change that.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And, you know, we all have idiosyncratic ideas about coaching. We have tons of them, but applying them generally to everyone is probably taking a step too far. Unless it's high carb and butter knives. No, not butter knives. Don't do that. If it happened to work for me, which it almost certainly won't. And then I wrote a whole book about it, and it was included in a book that's amazing on training theory, and it was taken more broadly, that would probably be a problem. So I'm always very hesitant to be like, what is this about my biases? And what is something that is more universal? I think the breathing methods are much more specific to individuals and might work for some, but probably not for most.

[A]

And then you're probably going to get pushback Critique of Forks Over Knives. The title of the pushback book.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, next one on Apple Tremol. Hi. I hope you guys are doing well. I just wanted to ask about weekly mileage with uphill treadmill workouts since I'm Covering less miles during the run, but it still comes out to be, for example, 90 minutes. Should I consider the load and stimulus of the run to be as far as I would run in 90 minutes on a flat road? I'm wondering how to factor in uphill treadmills and weekly mileage or should I just not worry about it on weeks like these? Sorry if this is a dumb question or you've already answered it somewhere. Thank you so much.

[A]

This reminds me a lot of, a lot of questions we get on biking and elliptical and trying to convert those into running equivalents is. I feel like uphill treadmill is an incredible running stimulus. But I feel like it's far enough away from flat ground running that it's really hard to make an equivalent. And we do it by time because it's an easier way to structure it. But I feel like there's no reason to be like a 90 minute uphill treadmill is equivalent to X number of miles outdoors because it's just fundamentally different.

[B]

The tricky part is it does involve impact based loading.

[A]

Yeah, but on a much different level.

[B]

It's lower.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it also I think does translate more directly to running. So there's also an early disagreement.

[A]

Yeah, there's an aerobic stimulus too that I feel like translates really well to running. So I feel like on the spectrum of like cross training and running, it falls somewhere in between and it still has that load, but I just feel like the load is so different that it's hard to make an equivalent.

[B]

I think that hard part becomes. I want athletes to understand that by doing uphill treadmill they're not fundamentally sabotaging their weekly mileage in the way they're absorbing stress. Somewhat of how I feel about cross training, but with cross training you can't really do that. Thus us. I, I personally do equivalents in my head when I'm telling them what their weekly mileage was. So a good example actually.

[A]

But aren't you just catering to athletes that want very specific data?

[B]

No, no. It's also the way I think about it because if I'm giving someone a two hour uphill treadmill, I don't think it's just 12 miles or 13 miles of load if they're really fast athletes. I think it plays higher. I think it plays more like that long run as I'm thinking about injury risk and how we adapt to it solely because. Because if we're doing uphill treadmill hard workout especially it applies like maybe at 15% grade this starts to fall away, but on the 6 or 8% hard workouts, I think it might actually apply.

[A]

But I think the hard part is like there's no like, like I feel like the hard part is there's no generalized equation to create. It's like that's such an individual athlete specific thing based off of what they're doing on the treadmill to get an equivalent, that it would be really hard to create some kind of equivalent equation that applies across the population. And so it's more of just like an in the brain thing.

[B]

This reminds me of in 1961. JFK was like, you know, it's really hard getting to the moon, so we shouldn't do it. But the reason I think about that way is because I think when you're starting to push athletes on the uphill treadmill, like doing harder workouts, you are starting to get a load that if you're not thinking about weekly miles a little bit, you might be overloading them slightly or just thinking that they're not doing the same load that they actually are. From a running perspective.

[A]

Oh, I do agree that it's load and I do agree that it has some relationship, obviously biomechanically. I just think it's really hard to create those equivalents.

[B]

Well, a good example would be HANS Troyer did 145 miles last week, our biggest peak week for western states. But that included a 12 by 5 minute workout on the uphill treadmill on Thursday. And I think that probably adds more like five miles of weekly mileage to his load. And I told him that because I think it's important to conceptualize when you're doing this. Yeah, you could go out and do that same amount of miles on a flat road at whatever pace and it would be that mileage. And just because we're doing uphill treadmill and your mileage might not even look as high. And that especially applies to athletes that are worried about this in like the 40 mile a week range. We're like, why am I not at 50? It's like, well, you might be with these equivalents. And so this is the one place where I do like to start thinking about that slightly because I think the impact loading makes it so that it's not that much different when we tally weekly miles.

[A]

Okay, that's fair. I agree. No, I do agree. And I think that's where I started is I agree. I just think it's really hard to create some kind of generalized equivalence. Cause it matters so much like, you know, grade of the treadmill, how fast you're Going like, how long you've been on there, what your warmup is. And so I think it's just really hard to convert there.

[B]

You being with science, I say just add a few.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, just add a few.

[B]

Just throw some on it. Okay, next one on breakups. I also have a question for you guys. Maybe for the pod or maybe not. I recently found out the guy I love more than anything slept with one of my good friends behind my back. Needless to say, the breakup and the suffering has been unbearable. What are your tips for heartbreak?

[A]

Ah, man, this is so tough. Um, I'm glad you messaged because I feel like, David, you probably messaged back and if you need someone to just like rage against the universe for you to just be like, fuck that bitch, you should message David. Because, David, you're fantastic at that.

[B]

Well, it's how I genuinely feel. I mean, in this case, we obviously don't know the details, but sleeping with a good friend behind their back, that

[A]

is so messed up.

[B]

It is so messed up. And what it is, it's a revelation of character. And if someone shows you their character, it's almost a service to you. When it's like this. This is not something that someone does that is a mistake or anything like that. This is someone showing their true selves. And one thing that can happen in love, in life in general, is that we can idealize things. We can idealize running or ultras or, you know, the, the process of training or injury or anything like this. But most of all, we can idealize other people in love and often see things in them that they are not. And I think that can be beautiful if you're helping bring out positive traits in them. But if it becomes a situation where you get taken advantage of because you are assuming a person is something they aren't, that is a huge problem. Problem for you and also for the other person because, you know, they're being put in situations where, you know, in this case, a punk ass bitch.

[A]

Here we go. Here we go.

[B]

Is doing, you know, horrible things. And so yes, bring your best four,

[A]

four for this, okay?

[B]

But there's always room for absolution, right? Like everybody can be forgiven and I don't want to say that they shouldn't. But in this type of case, like the, the place to start, I think as it relates to, you know, breakups in general and understanding this is try to stop the idealization first that this person was always the type of human who would do this even far into the future, they will be probably that type of human that would do that. And that sucks. They were never the person you thought they were, though. And so that doesn't mean that your breakup's any less val or your heartbreak's any less valid. You need to feel it. You need to talk about it and go through that grief process, which I

[A]

imagine is a massive grief process. And that's so hard. Like, you know, we've worked with athletes where it can fundamentally impact training in life, and it can be just so nonlinear where, like, you know, you're feeling good, and then something pops up that's a memory or a nostalgia or something really hard, and boom, that grief process is right back to being there again. And I think just give yourself a ton of grace, that, you know, time is healing, and sometimes a lot of time is healing, and sometimes that's, like, you know, maybe sometimes that's months or years. And I think just being, like, giving yourself grace and training and in life and relationships and I think just surrounding yourself by a lot of community, too.

[B]

Yeah. Talking about it, and that's almost always the salve to these things is just the more you talk about it, the more it loses some of its grip on you and its power, and it's almost like mythic quality. And, you know, I think hard part about heartbreak is it is part of identity. And so some of your identity might be torn down and what fills back in that place, like, obviously grief and sadness right now, but try to make it colorful and rainbow sprinkles that fill up that space as it rebuilds, you know, as much as you can. Because I think this is also an opportunity, like, just like injury is an opportunity to think about, all right, what are my intentions here? How can I move forward and be light for myself, you know, Because I think this is a time to focus on yourself as much as you can and, you know, get yourself right in terms of your. Your mental health and how you're feeling about who you are, because this has nothing to do with you.

[A]

I was just about to say that, like, having seen athletes go through that, sometimes that's the biggest thing. And, like, that confidence can be hit, and it can be hit for, like, relationships in the future. And I think the biggest thing is, like, you fucking rock, and this has nothing to do with you. And I think finding a way to, like, you know, talk about that and process that and just be like, you know, own that, like, that baller part of yourself, because, like, you know, you're incredible, and this is probably just, like, an unfortunate part of character also.

[B]

I'm obviously not a therapist.

[A]

Talk with a therapist, work with a

[B]

therapist, as a friend, say this guy.

[A]

Actually, some of my favorite things though are someone reaches out to you and you're just like this guy forever and his ancestors and all of those generations. And then sometimes people get back together and you're like, yeah, I love him. He's great.

[B]

I mean, everybody, everybody makes mistakes. Forgiveness is a thing. We don't know the context here, but this is actually something I heard on a podcast I listened to from Moshe Kasher, who is a comedian, not a therapist, where he, he talks about just actual breakups, where there's not cheating or whatever, where if someone breaks up with you, it's like a service done, that they're not wasting your time, that they're being direct with you and honest with you. And I think that also gets back to the idealization perspective that it's so easy to idealize other humans, but in reality, every other person is flawed in ways that we can't see. You know, me most of all. And sometimes those flaws involve shit like this that is just like really messed up. And that's the type of person that you couldn't trust anyway. And so even though you thought you could, you just couldn't. And it's hard because you were acting on the information you had. And within that information you had, you formed this narrative about who they were. But unfortunately, that's just not it. So it's okay to feel those feelings, but try to just let yourself have joy and, you know, get heartbroken again. Because just like all things, you probably learn more about life at the edge than you do when you're playing it safe.

[A]

And you'll probably grow from this too. I think one of my hardest things in life is feeling like I'm wasting time. And a relationship is never a waste of time. It's like you're learning something about yourself. You've done experiences, you've grown together. And I think, like, emphasize that growth piece long term too.

[B]

Yeah. Do you want to rapid fire as many as we can?

[A]

Let's do it. I like it.

[B]

Hi guys. I have a question. I'm going to start the six week half marathon plan soon, but I have a general question on the plans for the mini week workouts. How do you have your athletes remember them? I know it might be very easy for some, but I'm used to traditional distance slash time repeats where I can just program them into my watch. There are some workouts that would be hard to program in your plans, but I Will forget all notions of a plan When I run. Haha. Let me know your thoughts.

[A]

I totally get this. I feel like sometimes when I run, my brain is just like on autopilot and it's like, go, go, go. But I think just read it over a bunch of times. Commit it to your brain. You could write it down on your hand.

[B]

Yeah, just write it on your arm.

[A]

On your arm. Sometimes I write like, you know, phrases on my arm that I wanna remember in racing. And so that can help a ton.

[B]

Yeah. I'm also very confused by this. When people just forget. Get workouts when they run. Something happens in people's brains when they run.

[A]

Oh, I get it. Something happens to my brain. It gets. It gets. I was going to say hijacked, but it's something. Something crazy happens in there.

[B]

Yeah. You could program into your watch if you want to be really creative. But I also think dissociating from your watch is a good thing. You don't want to be tied to it. My favorite Emily Venter story From the mini 10k is she didn't wear a watch at all. She went watchless. I think she might have been the only person on the start line that did that that I saw. And I think that that was super powerful. It just shows where performance breakthroughs actually come from.

[A]

So she's not gonna get that Strava file though, man.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good one.

[A]

It would be a good one. It'd be a great one.

[B]

Yeah. But I. I think the less you have to look at your watch, probably the better when it comes to like the beeps and boops of it. So. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's just my biases coming out. All right, next one. Sitting by the pool in the afternoons listening to the pod, count it as

[A]

passive heat training, some kind of heat acclimation. Um, I feel like it's not like the traditional passive heat training of a hot tub or a sauna, but hey, it's heat acclimation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think sometimes like skin temperature high of just like hanging out in the sun makes you feel more comfortable to do it later on, like after we've been at Western states coaching. Like, you know, spending the entire day outside coaching the next day. I'm like, we're heat bosses.

[B]

Yeah. Ambient heat doesn't do the major adaptations with blood volume though. It does some. It doesn't do heat shock protein. So it's not doing the same types of things that you're seeing in passive heat.

[A]

I think it's more a Feel, though, like, you feel more acclimated to it.

[B]

Definitely. Definitely feel.

[A]

That's a. Like, the RP of that. It's a powerful thing, and it adds up, you know?

[B]

Know, like, if you're just getting a one, if it's a one out of a hundred adaptation stimulus and passive heat is a 10 or a 20 adaptation stimulus. Well, if you're doing this enough, it adds up over time. And so people that work outside or spend a lot of time outside probably are getting a substantial amount of stimulus. Sitting out in the pool for one afternoon. I wouldn't think of it as training.

[A]

That sounds kind of delightful.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Do you want to do a date with me where we're just hanging out the pool?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In all our free time. Sounds awesome.

[B]

Maybe in 20 years. Um. All right, last one here. Hi, Siren. If I'm reaching out way too often. Never. Never a thing. Uh, so today on my weekly call with my coach, and it was the first time that he was angry at me, I made a very. I don't want to say that.

[A]

Um, basically, they were making mistakes in

[B]

a race that they didn't intend to make. Um, it felt disrespectful because I trust and respect this person. Um, and I'm angry enough at myself when I make mistakes. The problem is that I have mental blocks, um, mainly because I'm scared of what other people seems to think of me. And it seems like my coach doesn't take this seriously. For me, it's a very serious thing, and I can't seem to get over it.

[A]

Well, first of all, sending so much, like, love and hugs. I've been there before when I've made mistakes, and I take them. Like, I'm so hard on myself, and I feel like sometimes in those situations, like, this is where working with a therapist can be helpful to, like, untangle those thought processes. But I feel like when you're feeling so hard on yourself, sometimes you don't need someone else to come in and be hard on you. At the same time, it's like. Like double compounding. And so I think maybe having an honest conversation with your coach like this, like, you felt so impacted by these mistakes in the race, and you're really feeling the weight of it. And it's not that you didn't take it seriously. It's that you took it almost too seriously, maybe that, like, you know, you feel this. And I think it's important to have that conversation with this coach that you respect so much.

[B]

Yeah. It's not okay to make somebody feel like that, even if it was unintentional. So to cut. I think there's two different sides of the coin here. If it was unintentional by this coach, coach, hopefully communication would open up pathways to like, have them understand that this is not the way to communicate with you. And even if it has worked for other athletes in the past, much like the training theory discussion we had earlier, different things have to work for different people, even different individuals across time. Um, but on the other hand, if it was intentional by the coach and they were very directly doing this, and it wasn't just, you know, the kind of, the mix of personalities, like a clash, then that is a problem. Problem about that coach. And you know, not to say fuck their ancestors, but like, you know, a coach is not there to be making you feel bad. This is not some 1970s high school football dumb, right? Like, this is something that is much more evolved and any coach worth a damn should understand that about an athlete. That the goal isn't to make them feel bad. Unless you are intentionally putting your health at risk, in which case I do think that there is a time to be very, very direct and intense with an athlete where you're like, this is dangerous and I will not stand for this.

[A]

And we're. Sometimes we are. And sometimes those become the most important fundamental coaching convers for a long term health.

[B]

But it wouldn't be about a mistake, a mistake that you didn't make intentionally or that you just didn't understand. So every coach messes up, right? Give people room for that. Give people always unconditional forgiveness in these types of settings. But do reevaluate where this is coming from in the first place. Was it intentional or could it have been something that is a clash of personalities? If so, communication should help. If it was intentional and it was a mistake by the coach, okay, forgiveness and communication can help. If it was intentional, intentional and the coach stands by it in that context, then get the hell out of there as soon as you possibly can.

[A]

Well, I feel like communication is a very like, broad way of handling this. How would you actually communicate to the coach?

[B]

Oh, just talk to them. Like in a non defensive, non accurate way. Like, I mean, I think that's the hard part for everybody. You know, I'm the king of wanting to be defensive. Every time I get pushed on the Internet about something, you know what I mean? And I don't. I just say, thank you for the feedback. I love you, you're awesome. Or whatever.

[A]

You always craft one first where you're like, this one's for me or for you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, this is how I actually feel. And then you're. You're like, I love you and I love your ancestors.

[B]

I know you meant well. Or something like that. This is how I felt in that context. Like, you know, what do you think about this? Like, essentially, make sure it feels like no hard feelings. I think. I mean, a therapist needs to talk about this, but solely so that you don't. Like, we have to be careful about projecting our own views on a situation onto everyone as an objective reality. Like, Right. Everyone is dealing with their own subjective experience, which is why I always try to say to these people that online, like, you're loved or whatever in the context of those conversations, because their subjective experience is different than mine. I do not think they're usually being disingenuous. And until I prove that, until I know for a fact, they're just trying to be assholes on the Internet. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and understand, like, look, you know, they have a different reality than me, but it doesn't mean mine is right. And so, like, try to view it from that perspective to reach a constructive place. Because, like, conflict is probably, like, extreme conflict. It's probably not the thing that's gonna help with your coach. Like, it might be the thing that helps with your partner. Maybe in small doses, you're like, I don't like conflict.

[A]

Very, very, very, very small doses.

[B]

No, it's not for me, but, like, I could see why it would be for other people. But, like, you know, with a. With a coach, it would just probably isn't worth that amount of your emotional stress to be like, you know, I'm gonna fight with coach. If you're gonna fight with a coach, you should probably just get out of that coaching relationship to be with. I think if it's like, a serious fight.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like for me here, I just pick up the phone and talk to them. I feel like it's a lot easier. Sometimes I feel like it's hard to have these communication structures over text or email, depending on how the coach communicates, depending on how you communicate. And sometimes a phone call or a video call, it's just really helpful.

[B]

Absolutely. Okay, you want to get on list in your corner?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

What do we have to talk to you before we get there?

[A]

John Gianji. Janji has bags coming out. So they have the ultra hauler super tote, which they sent me, and I've been carrying around and I get. People ask me about that bag all the time now.

[B]

I've been carrying this bag everywhere.

[A]

It's been everywhere.

[B]

What does it have?

[A]

Well, it's got two side pockets where you can put flasks. It's got all these internal compartments. It's huge. It's amazing. It's game changing. I was literally. I had it in the gym. And the funny thing about the gym is everyone wants to have conversations naked. Have you thought about that? Everyone's just standing there naked and they're like, let's talk.

[B]

I think this is a Megan thing. Maybe I'm not open enough, but no one has once had a conversation with me naked.

[A]

Well, I was there naked. There was a seven year old woman there naked. And she was like, I love your bag. And I instructed her about Janji. She wrote it down in her notebook.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And these are the gym conversations I'm having. But I mean, I literally have had like six different people ask me about this bag in the last few days.

[B]

Oh, shit. If she said it like, I love your bag, it needs something different in this gym. That's very interesting. No, guys don't do that at all, really. At least for me. Maybe I'm closed off.

[A]

Maybe you're. I mean, I'm just open in the gym now. I've been talking to people in the sauna. Yeah, it's been like my social situation. It's been great.

[B]

There's a top coach in the sauna with you recently.

[A]

And I just, I grilled him for 20 minutes and it was actually great. It was really easy to stay in the sauna as I was grilling him.

[B]

Amazing information that is all confidential, but it'll dribble out on the page podcast in various ways. But it was fun.

[A]

I was impressed. I mean, he was so open with me and so, like caring and empathetic about his athletes. And it made me excited that, like, you know, there's a coach out there that's doing that.

[B]

Okay. Boulder male coach, extremely good at what he does. That's telling Megan a lot of things. Users find out who it was, but it was very interesting because we learned some. You know, our main way of learning what's happening at the edge is not what we do. It's talking to people about what they do. So. I was so proud of you.

[A]

I asked so many questions.

[B]

You came back with data.

[A]

I texted you. I was like, aren't you proud of me? I have so many. I asked. I grilled him hard in the sauna.

[B]

Ultra holler. Tote. What else we got to talk about?

[A]

The Revy pack is coming back, which is a commuter pack, and I'm loving this shirt. I'm pulling it out right now. This is an R shirt, but feel this material.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

This is like part of their new RD line, and I just, like, I can't stop wearing the shirt.

[B]

Yeah. It is rather light. I feel like you could definitely repurpose this for lingerie.

[A]

Oh, it's see through too.

[B]

Yeah, well, kind of. I mean, yeah, it is a little

[A]

bit sheer, but really nice.

[B]

Get it wet. It's really nice.

[A]

I'm holding it up. What do you think? How does it look?

[B]

Oh, it looks amazing. Across your chest? Um, I can't. I can't see color underneath it, which is good.

[A]

It's double. Well, no.

[B]

Can you see color? So what's it called?

[A]

This is the RD shirt.

[B]

RD shirt. So it's letter R, letter D. It's

[A]

a little boxy, actually, so I sized down, but it fits like a. Kind of fits like a. A crop, and I like that.

[B]

Yeah, but you still can't, like. Like, it's not exposing midriff, I don't think.

[A]

Right. If you reach your arms up, you get some fun midriff.

[B]

Yeah. So it's perfect for running.

[A]

Yeah. I love it. It's great.

[B]

Yeah. And again, lingerie coated.

[A]

That's how you're gonna sell.

[B]

Yeah. Oops, just hit my computer. Hopefully that didn't knock out the mic. All right, let's get on to Listener corner. And we have zero things written for Listener Corner, so I'm gonna scroll up and see if we have any questions that could double.

[A]

Oh, we should do stage race carbs.

[B]

No, because that's too much. Oh, here's a perfect one. Hi, David and Megan. I went ahead and got the colonoscopy because of the potential correlation with ultra running colon issues. Not only did I get peace of mind from the negative results, but the nurse also let me know. While under anesthesia, I asked the team to rate my butt on a scale of 0 to 10. Surely pooping in a box doesn't give you those kinds of stories. That's what I did. Thanks for the advice on colon health.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Things are wild when you go under. What you say?

[B]

Yeah. What did you say? Did you say anything interesting?

[A]

I talked a lot about Leadville. Isn't that funny? You have. You have that video of me coming out, and I was like, these carbs are going to Leadville 2026.

[B]

I mean, you're Coming back strong, so who knows?

[A]

I do feel good. Yeah, it's of kind. Kind of. It's wild actually. I feel like my body is responding to these medications and. Which are heavy duty medications and I'm starting to feel good in training, so.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Rate your heart on a scale of 0 to 10. Go.

[A]

14.

[B]

14? Yeah, that's a kid Leo's number. But I rate my butt on a scale of 0 to 10.

[A]

Yeah, that's so perfect. I'm sure they said 10.

[B]

We need to write an article in sports medicine.

[A]

Yeah, that should be the title.

[B]

Every single person out there. You know what your butt score is?

[A]

14.

[B]

14.

[A]

That's Leo's answer to everything in the universe. Yeah, I actually asked him the other day, how many times did you pee at school? And he was like, 14.

[B]

Dude. Hydrated.

[A]

Actually, I gotta pee right now. It's the. It's the hyperlite.

[B]

Hyperlite's making you pee a lot?

[A]

Well, I mean, I just drink so much of it, so.

[B]

You have to pee right now.

[A]

I have to pee right now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you realize now that when you talk about me, like when you, when you're talking about peeing with me, you're like, megan, do you have to pee? Pee?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's your new thing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We were on a date night the other night and you're like, megan, do you have to go pee? Pee?

[B]

I don't have to pee. Which you know what that means. My p value is 0.00 with two dots in the middle, baby.

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

We love you all. Is that a woohoo mixed with an ooh

[A]

complex?