316. Why Western States 100 Records Are Getting Smashed, Z1 v. Z2 Training, AI Coaching News, and Competitiveness v. Ego!

Summary

Some Work, All Play — Episode 316 Summary

Podcast: Some Work, All Play
Hosts: David Roche & Megan Roche, M.D.
Episode Date: June 23, 2026
Episode Theme: Why Western States 100 Records Are Getting Smashed, Z1 v. Z2 Training, AI Coaching News, and Competitiveness v. Ego!

Episode Overview

A classic SWAP episode brimming with personal stories, science, running theory, and humor, centering on the upcoming Western States 100 (WS100) ultramarathon and what might make this year a record-breaker. The Roches also delve into training science (Zone 1 vs. Zone 2), the current climate of AI in coaching (and their very strong feelings about it!), hot debates in competitive psychology, shoe tech, wildlife encounters, and much more — all delivered with their signature blend of love and playful banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Updates & Setting the Scene (00:01–05:00)

• Megan and David open with birthday chatter, a nod to parenting struggles (simultaneous toddler tantrums!), and reflections on fitting training into busy lives.
• Cycling banter: Megan’s affection for road biking over gravel riding, shared rides up Boulder canyons, and the accidental swapping of heart rate bands leading to panic and humor.
  • Memorable Moment: “I was so in the zone. And I was like, my legs are burning so bad, and I can't get my heart rate up high. What is happening?” (Megan, 02:59)

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2. Episode Roadmap (05:00–06:40)

• David lays out a rich agenda: AI body scans, WS100 predictions, super shoe case study, new studies on Z1 vs Z2 training, perils of “optimization,” mountain lion encounters, fueling, competitiveness, health anxiety, science writing, listener Q&A, and more.

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3. AI Coaching: Satire, Sincerity, and Strong Opinions (09:00–15:50)

• David jokes about a “big announcement” — SWAP partnering with AI for automated coaching — but it’s a fake-out to segue into their deep unease with expanding AI in coaching.
• Discussion of high-profile athletes (Kilian Jornet, Eliud Kipchoge) signing on with AI platforms; debate on creativity erosion, job displacement, and the future of coaching.
  • Quote: “I worry... it's an apocalypse for creativity. That's my biggest fear. …The creativity part of coaching is going to be a lost art.” (David, 12:28)
• Recognition of privilege and ethical crossroads, especially for new and underrepresented coaches.

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4. AI in Medicine and Body Scanning (17:14–22:00)

• Recent news: Midjourney pivoting to full-body AI scans with medical claims; roasting of Silicon Valley “cold plunge + scanner” culture.
• Skepticism about incidental findings, medical anxiety, and the chasm between tech promises and lived reality.
  • Memorable Quote: “This definitely was written by someone or someone plus AI who really wanted to fuck a dolphin.” (Megan, 21:21)
• $75 million in “community-backed” funding, with a website described as “dot blogspot” level.

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5. Western States 100: Weather, Records, and Race Dynamics (22:00–36:00)

• This year’s forecast: historically cool temps could shatter records; models predict men’s finish times as low as 13:42 (current record = 14:09); sub–14 hours for men virtually certain.
  • Quote: “Sub 14 for sure at Western States.” (David, 23:55)
• Women’s record (Courtney Dauwalter’s 15:29) still hard to beat, even factoring in weather.
• Race dynamics predicted: Less “carnage” (DNFs, blowups) in cooler weather, more honest fitness test.
• Lists of favorites and dark horses, with special enthusiasm for coaching client Hans Troyer and his approach to pressure.

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6. Super Shoe Study – What’s Fastest for Trails? (36:13–42:27)

• Jeff Burns’ case study comparing trail and road “super shoes”: Hoka Rocket X Trail emerges as a top performer for trail ultramarathons, especially uphill and on flats.
  • Quote: “The Rocket X Trail excels… that's a really good shoe.” (David, 39:13)
• Banter about shoe ecosystems: Hoka, Brooks Cascadia Elite, Nike, Adidas — Hoka increasingly dominant, Adidas lagging behind.
• The logistics and almost comic realities of prototype shoes and their legality.

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7. Zone 1 vs Zone 2 Training: What’s Actually Optimal? (42:27–59:13)

• Review of a recent study: No major performance or neuromuscular difference whether easy miles are at Z1 or Z2 — as long as volume is matched.
  • Quote: “Basically what we're seeing in research… as long as you're accumulating the volume… it doesn't necessarily matter that much where exactly on the intensity spectrum it lies.” (David, 52:15)
• Endorses jogging and very easy running; “distance not time” is a better proxy for aerobic adaptation.
• Practical coaching take: For most, “the slower the better,” but higher-volume (or time-constrained) runners might go a bit faster.
• Real-world example: Hans Troyer’s ultra-long training weeks and how different paces/long runs fit together.

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8. Science, Optimization, and Human Quirks (59:13–66:32)

• Riff on Brian Johnson and the perils of “over-optimization” — from sleep science to relationships to AI body scans.
• Parental obligations: “You don’t owe your parents anything. …It is a one way street of obligation.” (David, 63:23)
• Liberating listeners from guilt or anxiety over parents’ sacrifices.

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9. Mountain Lion Study & Wildlife Encounters (73:43–81:49)

• Review of a new six-year study using GPS collars and Strava heatmaps: Mountain lions avoid high-traffic areas and “human-tolerant” lions aren’t riskier.
• Practical takeaway: Major risks come from being in atypical areas at odd hours — not the popular trail segments.
  • Quote: “If mountain lions are around you all the time, you're probably safe.” (David, 77:22)
• Risk comparison: Vending machines kill as many people as moose annually.

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10. Q&A – Competitiveness, Burping, and Personal Growth (81:56–101:34)

Competitiveness, Rivalries, & Ego (82:07–87:18)

• Listener asks about handling rivalry and refocusing away from negative energy.
• Megan’s playful advice: “Harness some of that angst and just be like, I'm gonna go for it.” (83:04)
• David advocates for “carrying with a wink”—letting competition motivate but not consume.

Burping and Race Day GI Issues (87:45–90:54)

• Not being able to burp is a medical issue (solved with a Botox injection in some cases!) and can cause race nausea. For most, proactively burping helps avoid bloating and GI shutdown.
• “If you cannot burp at all, that is a medical issue …go to a doctor right away.” (David, 88:07)

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11. Listener Corner: High-Carb Fueling and Recovery from Disordered Eating (94:07–99:12)

• Touching story from a listener who broke a cycle of binge eating and restrictive dieting by embracing high-carb fueling.
  • Quote: “Since starting high carb fueling, my entire relationship with food has been good in a way that I have never experienced... I fuel nearly all of my runs throughout the day. I can now trust my appetite.” (Listener, 95:43)
• Megan shares her own experiences with binge eating during a college transition and how eating enough resolved it.
• Underscore: You are not alone in any struggle, and acceptance is the ongoing project of life.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On AI in Coaching: “I worry that [AI] is an apocalypse for creativity… The creativity part of coaching is going to be a lost art.” (David, 12:28)
• On Ultra Competition: “At Western States, it’s built in that you have heat. So when you don’t have heat... you’re probably not going to have too many anxiety attacks at Forest Hill.” (David, 24:36)
• On Pressure & Potential (Hans Troyer): “If people are predicting that he's going to do something special, that's amazing. It's not pressure because he's planning to do something special.” (Megan, 28:41)
• On Easy Running: “The slower the better, as long as you're accumulating enough stress.” (David, 58:12)
• On Parental Obligations: “You don't owe your parents anything. The obligation is purely in the other direction. They are here to caretake you.” (David, 63:23)
• On Wildlife Risk: “If mountain lions are around you all the time, you're probably safe... What gets a little more dangerous is when you’re in a place that is less common.” (David, 77:22)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment & Topic | |--------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:01–05:00 | Personal updates, coach trip to WS100, cycling chatter | | 09:00–16:15 | Fake announcement & real discussion: AI coaching | | 17:14–22:00 | AI in medicine, full-body scan debates | | 22:00–36:00 | Western States 100 predictions & theory | | 36:13–42:27 | Super shoe case study | | 42:27–59:13 | Z1 vs. Z2 training theory and practical application | | 73:43–81:49 | Mountain lion study/public fear vs. actual risk | | 81:56–87:18 | Competitiveness Q&A: rivalry & performance psychology | | 87:45–90:54 | Burping, GI issues, and ultrarunning medical advice | | 94:07–99:12 | Listener story: high-carb fueling, binge eating recovery |

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Final Thoughts

This episode is essential listening for anyone following the Western States 100, curious about the impact of new technology or shoe science on the sport, or interested in the intersection of science, personal growth, and the joy of challenging ourselves. The conversation flows with science, empathy, insider knowledge, and laughter — ever supportive, ever empowering.

“We get one shot at life. So much of it is complicated beyond belief… Just talking about it and letting yourself know it’s okay is the path to acceptance. And I think the whole journey of life is getting a little bit closer to acceptance.” (David, 100:21)

Don’t forget: It’s okay to jog. It’s okay to burp. And—if 5–10% of the population is into feet—you are definitely not alone.

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Some Work, All Play Patreon for training plans, science, and more sky-humping (seriously).

The Feed.com/SWAP for fueling recommendations.

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For full context, this summary skips all ad reads, intro, and outros, focusing entirely on the podcast’s rich discussion.

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[A]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday and it's the best week of the year on this Tuesday.

[B]

Oh my gosh, it is. We are getting ready to take off to go see the Western States 100 to coach there, to just experience the community. I can't wait. And we're coming off of Broken Arrow and it's your birthday on Thursday.

[A]

You just skipped over the fact that it's your birthday today.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

On the podcast recording. How cool is that? Was that on purpose?

[B]

Yeah, that was on purpose.

[A]

You don't love your birthday, man?

[B]

No, no, no, I love my birthday. I just don't like celebrating myself. I want the energy other places also, you know, adding rings on the tree at this point. I do feel in my body every day. So I'm like, you know what, I'm not in a rush. I'll. I'll celebrate it a little bit in my own way, but I don't need other people to be telling me I'm getting a year older all the time.

[A]

38 is still young.

[B]

Yeah, 38. You know what they say, at 38 you really get crunk.

[A]

You're getting more slow twitch muscle fibers every year and getting crunk.

[B]

My foot's crunk, that's for sure. Yeah, it's gonna be so fun. I can't wait to go to Western States with you.

[A]

This is like seriously the best week of the year. And to top it all off, I feel like we've got a bal. We have children, two. Two toddlers at this point, tantruming at the same time.

[B]

Oh yeah, that was really impressive last night. It was like mutual simultaneous. Not a good thing. But tantrums, yeah. It is a vibe in life and I feel like that's one reason that I'm feeling older. Honestly, it's parenting is just a lot and it makes that extra ring feel like, I don't know, it comes with some scars.

[A]

Last night, both kids are screaming at the same time. It was Father's Day. I was like, happy. We had a wonderful Father's Day. It was great. So much fun. We were throwing rocks. Reservoir. We went to the beach at the reservoir. It was great. We got them home. They were so tired. They started screaming at the same time. And it was the first time we've had a dual side by side tantrum.

[B]

Yeah, that's 38 and you're going to be 36. Super special. This is going to be the year for you. I Feel it. I'm so excited for you to race when we get back, you're ready to go, Megan. Let's go for it.

[A]

I'm feeling good, actually. I feel like I realized that the path to my fitness this summer is just to have as many dates as possible.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I've been holding your wheel on the bike, and it is like a path to learning how to suffer well. And I'm like, this is probably a good thing for my fitness. Oh, my God.

[B]

We had the best experience on our ride last Thursday, which is we were going up Left Hand Canyon here in Boulder, which is a nice little climb, but draftable. So, you know, Megan's on my wheel, and I'm looking down at my heart rate, and I'm like, oh, man, I'm having a little bit of a tough day. Heart rate's higher. Hopefully everything's okay. Um, but about halfway up, I realized, oh, Megan's heart rate is on my watch. And it was fantastic because I was able to just gear out my effort so that we stayed in your top end threshold. And that's what I want to do in the future, is use your heart rate band.

[A]

You are the perfect pacer. But I was back there silently panicking because I had your heart rate. I was like, God damn, I can't get my heart rate above 162. Which, actually, to hold your wheel while you're at 162, I should have been giving myself props.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, is there something wrong with my heart? Like, what's going on? And we got to the top, and I was like, oh, yeah, this makes so much sense.

[B]

I love that you didn't figure it out the whole way up. You were just probably too in it, too in the zone.

[A]

I was so in the zone. And I was like, my legs are burning so bad, and I can't get my heart rate up high. What is happening?

[B]

Well, this is the proposal. Accidentally switch heart rate bands with your training partner. I think it's a really good vibe and a good way to determine whose effort is the right way. Like, I don't know. For me, I want to do that on every ride we do in the future.

[A]

Actually, it'd be great. You can just pull me. Pull me along. Like, you're actually a great pacer on the bike, and it is a hell of a workout for me just to, like, focus on your wheel and be like, do not get dropped. Do not get dropped.

[B]

Well, you crush it. And you got so many segments this weekend up in Nederland on Peak to peak highway. So Megan's on fire. I can't wait.

[A]

Okay. This is the realization though. So I got a road bike. It is like my favorite. It's a dream machine, which is cheesy to say, but like, it's literally how it feels within. My body is. It's a dream machine.

[B]

Yeah, well, you said you wanted to name it the dream machine.

[A]

I was like, megan, that's icky.

[B]

We are not basic bitches in this household. You are not allowed to name your bike the dream machine.

[A]

What's worse, the dream machine or we are so bad.

[B]

All of them give me the. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I like, feels like the dream machine to me. And I had the realization this weekend. I think I like road biking more than gravel riding.

[B]

Yeah, it's so much better.

[A]

It's so much better. I'm back there on the gravel bike, just getting rocks spat in my face. We're riding real fast over washboards. And now that we're riding on smooth, smooth road, I'm like, I don't know if I can go back.

[B]

I know trails and running roads and cycling.

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's like the equivalent of trails and running. Like as it relates to gravel riding is as if like your body is just being like shock waved by the trail the entire time. It's like those washboards go hard.

[B]

Oh, it's so brittle.

[A]

I.

[B]

You may even do some gravel races this year though. You're going to win everything.

[A]

No, no. This is the year no gravel racing. I can't turn, man.

[B]

Well, 36 is the year of Megan. I can't wait. And we have the best episode for you today. We're going to start with a big important announcement that I have been so excited to do for years. I can't wait.

[A]

This is on your birthday. This is your one shot. This is the only place you get to do this big announcement.

[B]

It's going to be so exciting. So stay tuned. Then a quick discussion of AI body scans than western states. Predictions.

[A]

Are we doing predictions? We started doing our top five predictions and then we bailed.

[B]

Yeah, we'll give some light ones, maybe some slight hot takes. Then a super shoe case study, A study on zone one versus zone two easy training that has really big implications for training theory. The perils of optimization based on studies, human wildlife conflict via a mountain lion study. That one's really fun. Short term performance, impacts of low energy availability and questions on personal rivalries, health anxiety, science writing and more.

[A]

There is so much good stuff on here and I personally love that. Mountain lion study.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a great use of data of overlapping mountain lion data with Strava heat maps in the Santa Cruz mountains. Did you realize that's where that was?

[B]

Yeah. I think they should tell us always if they have collars on these animals when we have really close calls. Because I feel like it would make people actually less nervous to know that you're always around wildlife and it's okay. But I don't know. We'll get into the details of the study when we get there.

[A]

What did you realize like 30 meters was their like close tracking, like data point? That is really close.

[B]

Yeah, it's really. It's pretty far actually. Right. 30 meters. That's like a hundred feet or so. That's not that close.

[A]

Pretty close.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. I think that's fine. But before we get there, a quick promo for the feed. Go to the feed.com swap swap. First order, 40% off. So get the biggest order you can for every $100 spent. You get $10 back after that. So really great deal. First thing I want to promote today is V Nella. It's a probiotic supplement. We talked about studies in the past that show that taking it for just a few weeks improves athletes motivation, which is very strange as it relates to the gut brain connection. But I have inside info that a lot of professional athletes are taking Vnella. So get on that train. It probably helps overall health, not just athletic performance.

[A]

I think about that study because I kind of spontaneously take vanilla. I'm just kind of like whatever I feel like it. I'll just take one in the morning. But I actually channel it more on low motivation days. And I should really track that. It's like I need some extra motivation this morning.

[B]

Yeah. And I think probiotics have almost no downside. The review studies on probiotics are almost universally good in ways that are very hard to predict. So it doesn't have to be vanilla. Nella is another one from the same company, fitbiomics. But it can be almost any probiotic supplement. You can check those out at the feed. The next thing I want to promote are the precision big ash gels. I've seen so many athletes really liking these for long summer adventures. So it's a gel that has 90 grams of carbs. You don't take it all at once. You just sprinkle it in.

[A]

I mean you could take it all at once.

[B]

We've seen athletes do that, including athletes that have finished at the very top at Western states, so. But it's a good way to transport gels. It's also not that expensive because you're getting more bang for your buck. So a really good option for just those long days.

[A]

I wonder how many precision bags will be out on the Western states course this weekend. My guess is quite a few actually. Precision's probably sending their whole team out to western states. And I love the case breakdowns they do of athletes post race.

[B]

So the big ash gels, they're just the 90 gram gels. Really good. And then the final thing, we've talked about ketone IQ on here in relation to some studies. So go check out ketone IQ for the actual performance benefits of post exercise ketones. You don't wanna take it before, during, but after exercise to improve EPO production from your kidneys. Uh, but the other thing I wanted to quickly mention is ketone IQ makes a caffeinated version. These are half the level of ketones. I think it's 5 grams relative to 10 grams in the actual ketone IQ. But we started sipping on this and this shit is like if PCP tasted

[A]

amazing, it kind of reminds me actually of Diet Coke. Like the flavor of it. Doesn't it taste a little bit like a fridge cigarette?

[B]

I'm like, yes, fridge cigarette, yes.

[A]

The combination of the taste and the caffeine. But they were just hanging out in our pantry for the longest time. I think someone actually sent them to us and we're like, they have 100 milligrams of caffeine. We're not going to do that. And then last week we needed a little bit of a performance aid for our podcast and out it came.

[B]

Oh my gosh, this stuff is wild. I don't know about. I don't know if it's good for you. Just because I could drink 14 of them, much like Diet Coke.

[A]

Actually that was the reflection I had is this kind is tasty. Kind of like unlike the regular ketone IQ. It's like I could drink 10 of these.

[B]

Yeah, regular ketones are robot's ass. This is much more like your.

[A]

I don't know, it's kind of like a Diet Coke fucked a robot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that's actually a perfect segue. Go to the feed.com swap into the big announcement which involves the thing that's all the rage right now, artificial intelligence. So Megan, this might be news to you, but I just want to let

[A]

you know that Swap, you just squeezed my leg. I did.

[B]

Swap has partnered with one of the big AI labs. I'M not going to say each one, but it rhymes with manthropic to release AI coaching from swap. What do you think?

[A]

Oh, my goodness. I'm scared. Terrified. Absolutely terrified.

[B]

Do you support it?

[A]

No.

[B]

Maybe I should have talked to you first. Just kidding. Just kidding.

[A]

Just kidding.

[B]

We're not doing that at all.

[A]

Usually I'm. Yes. And I'm just like, that's a hard no.

[B]

But it's my birthday, so I asked Megan if I could do a fake announcement for AI coaching because there was some news on this topic last week. You know, it's become a little bit more common to see AI coaching all over. But last week, Killian Jornette, my hero, like the shining light of the sport, the people's hero. Yeah. Announced that he was partnering with some AI company, some AI coaching platform, along with Elliot Kipchoge, who's been there for a while to do AI coaching. And I think it was interesting. It just feels so counter to his brand.

[A]

It actually felt so counter to me that I had a moment where I was like, is this April Fool's? I mean, because the environmental impacts of AI are obviously so high and that's like the main focus of his brand and who he is. And he's done incredible things for the environment. And so I was just like, wait a second, second.

[B]

Yeah, that bag, that's a different type of bag that he might be getting for signing with an AI coaching company. I think the environmental impacts are a little bit overstated, especially the water impacts,

[A]

you know, but I mean, he's going to such extents that he's wearing the same shoes for like 500 miles.

[B]

True, true, true.

[A]

You would, you would surmise, and obviously

[B]

the, the climate change impacts of things that require massive electrical infrastructure buildouts, that's huge. Even if the water impacts might be something that isn't the exact like, you know, it returns to the water cycle. So there's issues, but it's more ecological rather than broader scale climate change. So, yeah, I was just shocked actually for that. And I mean, he immediately announced something about a public lands partnership right after. So I think he understood there was probably going to be some pushback. But that being said, I do not begrudge anybody in getting that bag.

[A]

Also, he's the goat, so the goat can do what the goat wants to do.

[B]

I'm just imagining the goat carrying all those bags right now.

[A]

He's going to get a llama for that.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, AI coaching is taking off in general and we had a big segment on here A few months ago that we deleted from the podcast, it was like 10 minutes of me ranting against AI coaching specifically.

[A]

Actually, I joined in the rant.

[B]

Yeah, you joined?

[A]

Yeah, a rare case where I was like, you know, I was, I kind of tempered it a little bit. I was like, you know, there's some great AI models out there. Like, you know, that's, that's amazing. To each his own.

[B]

But yeah, yeah, we went all out and deleted it because it just seemed like, you know, we don't want to offend anybody. We don't know what we're doing. And also, this is the future. Maybe not AI coaching specifically, though it'll, if you zoom forward a hundred years, I'm sure it'll be AI everything. And standing in the way of the future is probably not the best strategy. Luddites might have had some good points, but there aren't too many of them anymore. And if you want to be at the front cutting edge, maybe you do that. And so we've gotten contacted authentically by a lot of people that want to do AI, swap plans and things, and we've decided for sure we're not ever going to do that. And I think that comes from a place of privilege because we don't have to, you know, we have this platform. But at the same time, I worry as much about AI coming in and taking away jobs and things, I, I and environmental impacts. I also worry that it's an apocalypse for creativity. That's my biggest fear. And I think the creativity part of coaching is going to be a lost art, just like a lot of other arts are going to fall that way within the next 20 years and we don't want to contribute to it. So as much as I worry from environmental standpoints, I have bigger concerns, I think, from, you know, long term ethical ones, if you care about the profession.

[A]

I really do think it kind of erodes the creative process when you think about it. Like, we were driving here to record this podcast and just talking about the writing process. There's a writer, Devin Kelly, who I loved, who actually I found him because he came and visited and reported and did a piece on you. And I've just been so into his poetry and his writing and I'm like, how can we get the world to read more of his writing? Yeah, but you think about that as like, you know, being this writer out there undiscovered. And, you know, he's, he's very popular within the writing world, but I want him to be like, more broadly popular.

[B]

I feel like in 1960, he'd be one of the most famous people in the world. You know, he'd be Ernest Hemingway out there. And that's not the case now, but

[A]

now it's like, how do those paths change? I think AI changes that a lot. Like, I imagine a lot of what we read on the Internet now is at least aided in some part by AI. And it's like, at what point, like, my brain is pretty good at distinguishing what's written by AI on something like Instagram. But at what point is that going to change? And is AI going to be just as good as this creative process? And I do think that like is potentially coming for us. It's some point.

[B]

Even if it's not just as good, will it become indistinguishable to 98% of people? Much like differences in red wine are not distinguishable to non sommeliers in a lot of cases, I think that that's the path we're going on with the technology. And the concern becomes in any creative space, where is the motivation to create when most people can't tell the difference between you and a machine in an algorithm? And so if you're in San Francisco, they would just say, oh, this is enhancing the human capability and don't stand in the way of it. And we're going to talk in a second about something that's very similar to that in the medical space. But when you think about it applied to coaching, I just am so, so scared that we're going to enter a world where good coaching and bad coaching are indistinguishable, essentially because AI coaching still is horrid, and that we're going to enter a world where the entire profession gets eroded from the foundation and it comes from established players, I think in many cases taken that bag a little too early. And maybe this is the future, but it's not now. Like, the AI coaching now is not good enough. And I do, I am concerned about that. Like, I think there's an argument that it democratizes information, but I think there's better ways to get at that than these systems right now. So that's my little rant via the announcement.

[A]

And I worry most for, like, small coaches or coaches that are just getting started out. Like, you know, for us, like, we've had this platform, we've had the privilege of that. And so AI coaching actually doesn't change our landscape that much. But I imagine for a coach that's trying to break into coaching, it actually does quite a bit. And that's like we need to uplift women. We need to uplift, you know, coaches that need to get their voices, minority coaches. And so I think that's, like, really important.

[B]

But you could argue that our training plans on Patreon are essentially undercutting things too.

[A]

So I think it's giving coaches, though. I know a lot of coaches who are trying to learn about coaching and use those training plans as a base

[B]

or it could be a gateway to coaching.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

But AI could be the same thing. So, you know, it's tricky. We're all. We're all at a tough ethical crossroads.

[A]

It's a tough ethical crossroads. Okay, give me your reel. So you wanted to do. You had this whole reel planned out and you're so excited about it last night. And yeah, I was sitting there and I was like, God damn, it's going to be his birthday tomorrow and I'm going to tell him that he's not going to be able to post this reel and he's going to be real sad.

[B]

I wanted to choose violence on my birthday.

[A]

Yeah, I was like, my argument was going to be, David, you really don't want to stir the pot on your birthday. Not a fun thing to do.

[B]

And also, I just want to be positive in the world.

[A]

You know, that was the argument that I was going to have. It's like, why put out negativity? Especially like, you know, there's been recent players that have gone into the AI space and why present negativity in their way?

[B]

And also, I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. But the real was going to be just a forward, you know, facing video at me where I look kind of uncanny. And I'm just like, hello, I'm David Bot, your AI coaching assistant. What was I going to say?

[A]

You're on the spot. You're on the spot.

[B]

I understand that you may have environmental and ethical concerns about my use. I hear you. I see you. And rest assured, I promise one thing. AI coaching is also hot trash. And that would have been numbers on Instagram.

[A]

It really would have actually.

[B]

It wouldn't have done any good.

[A]

No, I think it's not the kind of brand we want to be. The brand that's like, uplifting of creative ideas and in some way, like, this is a creative endeavor to put this together. And so, like, you know, we want to be uplifting of that and it

[B]

is the future, whether we like it or not. And so it's just the. Just the way, the way of it. And that brings us to an actual Piece of AI news before we get to Western states is the Mid Journey scanner. This news just came out last week. So Midjourney was the company that initially was creating images and things that you might have seen everywhere. They've pivoted because I think that that is not a place where you can generate much because there's all of these massive players in the game with a lot more to invest. And so essentially they're proposing that someone does a full body scan that just takes a little bit of time and it's going to get all of this medical information back. And there was a huge uproar in the medical community of people pushing back on it, much in the same way that we push back on AI coaching. And the interesting part for me is while I am like that about AI coaching because it's the world I'm in, I see doctors do that and I'm just like, what do you, what are you afraid of? What are you afraid of?

[A]

See, this is happening in every community and I think with my medical background I'm like, oh hell no. Did you see that they're pairing these scans? So the idea is that this is a 60 second scan and they're pairing it in places where they're offering cold plunges and saunas and hot tubs. I'm like, this is the most classic Silicon Valley thing. We're going to do a scan, we're going to have the Huberman protocol, we're going to roll it all out. Everything comes with a cold plunge in Silicon Valley.

[B]

Everything does literally everything. Colonoscopy?

[A]

Yeah. Cold plunge.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The instrument they're sticking in has been in the freezer before it goes up there. Yeah, it is, it's just a fascinating place. Like I was thinking about what happens if you stick an athlete in one of these machines.

[A]

You know, oh my goodness.

[B]

Knowing what MRI images look like on just an athlete knee that's totally asymptomatic or there was a study in 2004, way back then, one of my all time favorite studies on tibial MRIs, so you know your shins in collegiate athletes that found 41% of collegiate athletes had stress reactions or fractures in their shins and their that diagnosis on imaging had no correlation with subsequent outcomes. So there were tons of people just going around with grade 2 or 3 tibial injuries with no problems at all. And how is that going to be translated into this technology?

[A]

That was one of my all time favorite studies actually done by my PhD advisor, shout out Dr. Frederickson. And to think about that and then to think about how that would transfer to incidental findings across the whole body. But they are also like, some of the rationale for these scans is to get them done multiple times a year. It's like, can you imagine the health anxiety associated with this? Maybe that like washes away in the cold plunge and you're free of all health anxiety once you've been in there for three minutes. But I was just like, that seems like a lot.

[B]

Can you imagine the IPO price? Oh, that's what you need to imagine.

[A]

Did you see that they've, they've invested $75 million in this.

[B]

I mean, there's unlimited amounts of money for AI investment right now.

[A]

It's actually community backed funding, which is weird. I know, Isn't that weird?

[B]

Like community backed as in like a GoFundMe type thing or a Kickstarter?

[A]

It's like the, the way that they're not doing like classic investing rounds. Isn't that wild?

[B]

That doesn't make any sense.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Just go to one of those VCs.

[A]

None of this makes any sense. Because I also went, I was like reading about this and some of like the Silicon Valley, like tech literature and then websites.

[B]

Literature, literature.

[A]

Yeah. And then I went to their website and it seriously felt like a dot blogspot website. And I was like, this is the $75 million company.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's weird because VCs will throw money at anything nowadays. So I don't know, maybe we're not quite there yet, but you put a screenshot in here and I wanted to read it if that's okay.

[A]

Oh, yeah. This is describing the medical technology. This is one of my first exposures. And I was just like, what?

[B]

Yeah, it's hard to decipher bullshit from like where the future actually is going at this stage.

[A]

And this, it's hard to decipher bullshit here.

[B]

What's bullshit and what's not?

[A]

Oh, you should read this. And I think it's easy.

[B]

It starts by stepping into a shallow pool of golden light. You then begin to descend into the water. Your body passes through a ring of underwater sensors, each acting like a dolphin. Using its echolocation, the sensors send ultrasonic sound waves through your body from every angle. With enough waves and enough angles, we form an image of what's happening inside your body. The goal is for this process to take no more than 60 seconds. You go into the water, you come out of the water and you're done.

[A]

Okay. This definitely was written by someone or someone plus AI who Really wanted to fuck a dolphin.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It sounds like one of those cult shows on hbo. Like we're definitely.

[A]

It really does.

[B]

Yeah. There's definitely going to be some terrible things happening in this water.

[A]

Also it's done on a black background with orange text and it really feels like a dot blog spot of the 80s, doesn't it? Yeah.

[B]

So the future is looking very, very interesting. And for my birthday I got to do an AI coaching announcement. That's not real. I'm happy. Okay, let's go on to western states predictions and as always, best time of the year, coolest race of the year and literally cool this year which is going to be so insane. I, I mean 79 degrees for the high in Auburn, California when usually it's in the upper 90s at least.

[A]

Is it 79? I saw 81 this morning. Has it already dropped?

[B]

Yeah, 79 degrees right now. Um, and that could change still. We're recording this on Monday.

[A]

Actually last Monday I looked and it was 96 which is a more a function of that at that point. It's like, you know, roughly 10 days out, more a function of like long term weather patterns than actual predictions. And to see it keep coming down and down and down is wild.

[B]

Yeah, it's gonna be a truly insane race. And I think it points out where all churning is going because western states is so hard because of the weather, because you hit these canyons which are incredibly steep when it's hot.

[A]

There's also a convection effect in the canyon. So it's like the baking of the days prior in there just heats it up and it's like running through a sauna out there.

[B]

Yeah. And when it's not hot, oh my goodness, what's going to happen? We don't know. And so Marshall Burke, who we talked about last week, he's at Stanford, he's a brilliant professor, does work on this on the side. And so he has a model that he charted out many years ago to predict what the finishing time is going to be at Western states. And this has a few inputs, mainly the long term historical trend of times and then also impacted by weather conditions throughout the course. And so he's incredibly good at this. In most years it is very, very close to what the final time is. But this year his model predicts for men 13 hours and 42 minutes.

[A]

What the hell. That is sub 14, but also sub 14 by so much.

[B]

Yeah. And the current record's like 1409. And it's, it points out that either the model is breaking and it could very well be broken by this temperature because you're usually considering this model that the small differences in temperature 91 versus 98, when you get 79, you're probably seeing a push down of that time that is not exactly statistically rigorous. And Marshall would say that too, that this could just be. It's so cool that we're going to get a weird response, but I think sub 14 for sure at Western States. That's the big prediction that I think, you know, everyone will be saying and absolutely is true. It's gonna go sub 14 for sure.

[A]

How do you think that's gonna impact carnage? So last year there was actually a decent amount of carnage in the men's race because it went out so fast.

[B]

Wait, there was carnage in the men's race?

[A]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

I didn't know about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you give me one example?

[A]

Yeah. One anxiety attack.

[B]

One anxiety attack, dude, I'm proud of that now.

[A]

Own it.

[B]

Just own it. Beat my chest with my Forest Hill anxiety attack. Yeah. I think there's gonna be so much less carnage in general, um, because at Western States it's built in that you have heat. So when you don't have heat, even when athletes are fading, they're not going to absolutely implode. You're probably not gonna have too many anxiety attack panic attacks at Forest Hill just because you can keep moving at that point. Um, and even if you're moving slowly, your time is gonna be fantastic. And so I think we're gonna see wild times throughout the top 10, both men and women's race. Interesting. Marshall's model doesn't predict the women's course record. That's how good Courtney's time at 15:29 is.

[A]

Courtney's time was nuts. And seeing that actually kind of blew my mind to think about how strong that was. Do you think that athletes. So there's been a lot of conversation about these predictions out there and about how like the dynamics of racing to Forest Hill, which is roughly mile 62 plays out, that like oftentimes the top five at Forest Hill, that you have to be in the top five at Forest Hill to go on to get podium. Yeah. Do you think we're going to see more of a race to Forest Hill and more athletes going out faster with some of those stats out in the public?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. I think the stats kind of influence it, but I think it's more just racing dynamics. Like the sport's changing so much all the time and in the men's race especially this year is so wildly Competitive, including with people that have never done a hundred milers who are fast as hell, that we're going to see a race like we've never seen before. I bet we see every split way faster than you could ever imagine. The women's race, interestingly, has a little bit less of that dynamic. To me, you look at the list, it's obviously very competitive, but it's not quite as stacked as the men's race.

[A]

I think we're also missing a Courtney or.

[B]

That's the thing. Yeah, we have Jim and Killian.

[A]

Those athletes oftentimes pull the field along in different ways. And so I think the pack dynamics in the women's race are going to be slightly different than in the men's race.

[B]

But I bet in the women's race, what we see is someone that is the next Courtney or Katie get crowned, like, someone's gonna go out with that intention where they just go from the gun. And the question is, do the other women go with them? I think in the men's race, it's undeniable. There are probably 10 guys, maybe eight guys on the start line that are like, you know, I can win this.

[A]

There's actually been. So I've been like, obviously, like, following the predictions and everything. Every once in a while, I forget that an athlete is reaching, like, the CCC golden tickets. I'm like, I forget they even gave out golden tickets at ccc. I had a moment where I was like, my goodness, Francesco Pupi's racing.

[B]

Francesco Puppies racing and Thomas Carden's racing, who is not being talked about that much in the American media. But this guy has never lost, really. And there's so many people like that. And so in terms of big predictions, I mean, Jim Walmsley's here. That's pretty cool. Like, we have no idea where his fitness is, though I have heard rumblings through the grapevine that he's classic Jim, doing big training. Doing big training. But our heart, my heart especially, and I don't want to speak for your heart.

[A]

Oh, my heart for sure is with

[B]

Hans Troyer, the kid.

[A]

He makes all of our hearts younger and fitter. Yes, I could use that right now.

[B]

Young.

[A]

Thanks, Hans.

[B]

Thanks, Hans. Um, just the. The best guy. So ready. You know, like, his training has been just fantastic. He missed one double the entire time. So he doubles three or four times a week. Uh, he missed one double in the entire training buck because he was traveling to Olympic Valley. He's like, David, I can't believe I missed one thing. And this is after, you know, six months of focus training. And so Hans is so ready. And I can't wait.

[A]

You were telling me yesterday about just his response to pressure and how beautiful that was. What was the. You should deliver this. It was so well said how he crafted just like, you know, being excited to be in this race and to feel the pressure on him, because that's a reflection of his talent and what people can, like, think he can do. And that's a good thing.

[B]

Yeah, just that he wants it and it's so genuine to him. Like, he's not worried about failure. He doesn't even think about that. He genuinely loves to be there. As he's been saying a lot, these are the times he knows he's in it and he's enjoying it for what it is. And I can't wait to see him run, because he's one of those people that makes you love running. And I think what's so unique about Hans, relative to pro athletes at that level in general, in most sports, is Hans brings everybody along with him. You know, obviously his YouTube channel and things like that. But young kids message him all the time, and he's just giving them every piece of advice he possibly can. Like, when you run with Hans, as I got to do in this build, a fair number of times, it makes you so much better. And he does that for the entire community, too. So no matter what Hans does, like, he's going to be lifting up everyone by being authentic to himself. And the fact that he's there, he's fit, it's cool. Like, watch out, world, because we know he's fast. It's going to be so exciting.

[A]

I'm excited. Well, the Hans quote that you told me yesterday was about the idea that, like, if people are predicting that he's going to do something special, that's amazing. It's not pressure because he's planning to do something special. And so having that belief is the important foundation. Like, if he's going to do something special, he needs other people to believe in it, too. And I thought that was, like, a great way to frame. Pressure is like, if people are believing in me, that's a great sign. And to see Hans embrace that, like, while he's young and fit makes me excited.

[B]

So young and fit, it's going to be young and fit forever.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Too young to fit, then. Francesco Puppi, as you said, coming from shorter distances into 100 miles, I think he could very well win this thing. Anthony Castales, who's been on the podium here, who doesn't really lose. Who's closing on Hans at Black Canyon. That's scary. Dan Jones again. I mean, it's just so deep.

[A]

And Dan Jones doesn't miss at Western States. I think he's been in the top five three different times. And so I'm excited for him to be back out there.

[B]

Yeah, I remember him passing me coming out of Michigan Bluff. So, like, mile 57, 58 last year, I was in a rough spot. I was really worried about dying at that point. I thought I was literally going to die. I was positive I could convince myself that if I kept going, I was going to die. And he passes me and I've never seen anyone with such good posture.

[A]

Yeah, that's a way of saying he's dreamy. Right.

[B]

I was. I mean, I wasn't at the point of assessing dreamy status, but I was at the point of being like, how has anyone ever been so upright through their magical glutes as that guy?

[A]

It is so wild. Do you know he's a baby? Oh, yeah, I know. It's a new variable in the training routine.

[B]

So you're saying he's taken.

[A]

Unfortunate.

[B]

Unfortunate for you.

[A]

We don't know.

[B]

You don't know. Um, okay. And then for. For women, Tara Dower always want to give her the biggest shout out.

[A]

Um, Tara has had much like Hans, just a super consistent training block. And she thrives off of races and is raised by Black Canyon and Gorge. And those are short races for her, too. And so I'm just like, Tara thrives when it involves a lot of suffering. Like, she has a tattoo that literally says suffer well. And I'm excited for her to be here and to be healthy. She was sick last year, and so I think for her to show up, I'm just pumped.

[B]

Yeah. And I just love the cool temperatures because the suffer. Well, part of it is probably not suffer to the point of thinking you're going to die. Which is always my concern about Western states and why, even though I want to be back there, I have my own hesitance. Because it caused my brain to go places my brain's never gone before. Because when you throw that level of intensity and that level of performance into that heat, it's such a scary thing for human physiology. There are so many cases of rhabdo after the Jerusalem. But in the past, when we've seen cooler years, it's actually great. Like, athletes are wonderful, so you get more of a fitness test, which is awesome. And how I prefer the sport to be rather than like a Bad water style test of suffering. And so for her, it's like she can use that suffering to channel towards fitness. And that makes me really, really pumped because I always get worried at this race when you see what's celebrating being, you know, mile 80 and someone looks like they're like really, really needing to go to the hospital, but they go on and like crush it anyway. Like, I don't. I love that as much as I love people being their best selves and performing under adversity.

[A]

I agree. And her running economy has just built so much that to have a year where we can access that because of the temperatures, it makes me excited. But she's also like, we're thinking of ways to keep her healthy this year. And she's got a number of interviews lined up like this. These are busy weeks for these athletes. And she's wearing like ppe, so personal, like protective equipment in the form. Like, you know how the like workers in infectious disease had that like face shield?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's gonna wear that for interviews.

[B]

The face?

[A]

Yeah. Isn't that amazing?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

She's got some pink, some sexy pink masks. Okay.

[B]

I don't want to mansplain things to a doctor and coach, but maybe just say no to the interviews.

[A]

I think she really wants. I actually, I think she really wants to do the interview.

[B]

Yeah. No, it is wonderful for the community,

[A]

but you also need to live life too. You know, it's a delicate balance. Like, you know, this is something athletes face, especially athletes with children. It's like, how do you show up to raise healthy and live your life at the same time? And there's some like in between option there. And how do you cut it?

[B]

You ship your children off to an au pair in Europe, just like send

[A]

them to Germany, send them screaming. The best way to go out. It's like on your UPS declarations, it's like screaming child.

[B]

Megan's like, I'll take Dan's kid. Next one. Number two. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. You're allowed to say that. Um, okay. And then other. I mean, it's just so stacked. Why even name a group of people I was looking at? I mean, Jen Lichter I think is so scary good and has done wildly long runs in training which, you know, when you've trained on this course that much, it usually pays off. And it's the interesting training dynamic that's kind of happening here as well. Athletes doing really, really long runs in training, often on the course and Yeah, I mean as much as that scares me for like the long term health of the sport, I think as it relates to short term performance for ultras, it's obviously fantastic. You know, and so, and I think

[A]

in her case too it's probably helpful. Like she hasn't done a hundred mile race before and so you kind of like, you know, Tara's done the 80, she's you know, covered many thousands of miles. And so I think also the long run context there is a little bit different. And I think for an athlete that hasn't done a hundred mile before, like you kind of want to simulate not all of that, but some of that in training.

[B]

Yeah. And then Caitlin Fielder, Fu Xiao Zhang, Abby hall coming back from winning last year and as I was actually making picks, so I have picks list here that I didn't say I wrote. Haha, I bailed on this. At this point we can just talk about a few people without making picks.

[A]

I don't know, did you start to panic?

[B]

There's no way to be a good person when you're making picks. I feel like.

[A]

Did you have fart panic as it relates to picks?

[B]

Yeah. Um, so it's gonna be the most fun time of the year. So watch it. Let's see what happens. It's gonna be probably one of those moments that the sport changes forever and our understanding of endurance physiology changes forever. I wouldn't be surprised to see 1350. I think 1342 would be wild. But also when it's cool, there's less margin for error. So it's gonna be just much more of an honest race. I feel like. And I don't know if western states was cool every year it would be such a better race.

[A]

Give me your men's time prediction. Um, I'm going 1355.

[B]

Yeah. I'll go 1349. Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I think incredibly fast. And then for women, 1543, I think with this temperature we're going to see 1525 of course record.

[A]

Holy shit. Yeah.

[B]

Which is under Marshall's prediction. So Marshall predicted for 1543 course records 1529.

[A]

But do you predict 1543?

[B]

I think the coolness, everybody's going to see it. They're going to realize that it's time to go make history and people are going to go make history because the course itself, there are very hard sections. But the reason it is slow is because the time after Forest Hill everybody runs slow because it's hot as shit. You're baking. If it's not that hot, it's still going to be warm, but if it's still not, if it's not that hot, the course turns into a very easy 100k with a very hard 50k in it. And that is wonderful. I mean, the beginning of the course, the high country as people call it, is, are is incredibly easy running when it's not snowy. And I think it sometimes gets a reputation for being harder than it is. It's not hard at all. But the canyons suck. If that's not hot, it's not going

[A]

to be that bad. Do you think you just have canyons bias?

[B]

I mean, I don't know. I think it does suck.

[A]

Again, I need to go experience it for myself.

[B]

Yeah. I think the problem is the trails themselves are beautiful, like underfoot. But you're going down into an incinerator and that's not necessarily a fun experience for most people. I don't think almost anybody truly enjoys that. If it's not an incinerator, it's a wonderful trail run like this course in January would be a joyride. So if you have that and then you can run fast on the incredible runnable Cal street that comes after mile 60. Holy crap. I mean it's going to just reset everything. And do you think we're going to

[A]

see a shoe change at Forest Hill to put on super shoes for the final part of the course? Ruth Croft did that. I think in 2022.

[B]

Yeah, that would be. I'd love that personally.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe Doomjoom would pull that off.

[B]

And that was such a good transition to our next topic.

[A]

I know, actually. But first. But first, do you want to get back to western states?

[B]

I mean, we'll see. First I want my foot to be able to run. But yeah, no, eventually I think so. I mean, it might not be my choice. Right. Like 38 years old. It's hard to get golden tickets nowadays.

[A]

Oh yeah. But I think if it's going to be at least some of your choice, you should believe in it.

[B]

I mean. Yeah. Belief it though is backed by data and I haven't put that data on paper since this injury. Right. So like, I know it would be a fulfilling journey. I don't know how much I want to waste western states in a hot year. That's the hard part.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's at that point you are launching yourself into an incinerator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Next thing is a shoe case study. This is fun because it builds off western states. This is by Jeffrey burns, a brilliant PhD and he went back to Jim Walmsley's shoe in 2016. This is when Jim Walmsley wasn't known by that many people. He was wearing the shirt that had all the holes in it, and he stepped up into the start line in Adidas Boston Boosts, which is their little kind of minimal road shoe, and then went to make history before his wrong turn at the end, which is the most tragic moment in trail riding that's ever happened.

[A]

Do you know what I just realized? I feel like historically we used to call these types of shoes road flats, and we don't do that so often anymore. I feel like we call them road super shoes. And I wonder if that's just like a new evolution of terminology.

[B]

Well, they're not flat anymore.

[A]

I know that's exactly. The stack height's massive.

[B]

They're way curved, and they have a huge thing in them. So I think flats are certainly a thing of the past.

[A]

The road flats are gone.

[B]

Yeah. And so he went back to that shoe, found an analog for it, and then also tested the HOKA Rocket X Trail, which is what a lot of the HOKA athletes will be wearing this year. The Norda 005, which is Norda's super shoe, theoretically, even though it doesn't have a carbon plate, that has looked good in past studies. And then the Nike Vapor 5 3, the road shoe, to kind of give control for what are the fastest shoes looking like in these similar tests.

[A]

And he tested them on flat ground and then also uphill on the treadmill at 7%. He actually should have tested them downhill. I'd be to get some data points on that because, like, you know, I think super shoes don't perform quite as well on downhills compared to the control shoe and compared to flat ground running. Like, when you. When you compare the percent gain in flat ground running, you don't often see that on downhills. And so I'd be curious how these perform.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like treadmill, you're not really getting good variables when you do that.

[A]

Actually, probably people just aren't used to running downhill on the treadmill. And so the data is probably very messy.

[B]

I totally agree. Okay, so for the boost, that was the control shoe. So 0% on flat ground. The Rocket X trail 2.7% improvement on flat ground. Norda 00527% as well. They tied. And the Vapor 5.354%. So shows the power of super shoes.

[A]

Also, I wonder if the. Because of the 5.4%. I wonder, like the Adidas Boston Boost compared to, like, you know, when we were Thinking about The classic, like, 4% gains in the. In the. The vapor fly, whether the Boston boost is probably worse than the control shoe that used in those studies, I think

[B]

it's just within the margin of error.

[A]

Yeah, it's probably true. Yeah.

[B]

Um, and then at seven point grade, the boost was the control shoe again. The rocket X Trail, 2.3% better. The Norda 005, 1.2% better. So the Rocket X Trail excels and the VaporFi 3, 4.3% better. So, you know, another vote for the Rocket X Trail. That's a really good shoe. That's kind of the direction we're going in.

[A]

That's my go to trail shoe. I love it, actually. And it feels great technically as well. Jeff Burns rose. I was kind of curious about that uphill data and kind of like what he was perceiving. And he actually wrote something about the personal feel of stack height on uphills. And I thought this was interesting. And climbing the thicker shoes just feels easier mechanically. Feelings often aren't great guideposts with super shoes these days, but sometimes they're not nothing. I'd be curious to explore that phenomenon. Midsole thickness going uphill within more homogeneous shoes.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah. What do you think about that?

[B]

I could see that. I mean, I think the thicker shoes essentially mean that you have to get less spring mechanism from your foot.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

So I think that that's the place where a lot of these shoes excel. Is that especially going uphill, is that the shoe itself makes it so that you're getting a little bit of a spring effect and you don't have to then do that toe off. That's really, really powerful. And I think I harnessed that in super shoes specifically. And I think it's why my plantar tour actually is. I was able to put a ton of force through the plantar, but without the foot strengthening in the foot, like, dynamics to support that. So eventually it just, like, tore in the middle of a race.

[A]

I actually had this really sad realization this morning that maybe your planter wouldn't have torn if you wore the alpha flies for javelina. I was against that because I was like, you're gonna just yeet the shit out of your ankle, and that's not gonna be good. That's gonna end in a dnf. But then, obviously was not considering this outcome. And I'm so sorry. This morning I was like, this is all my fault. I did this.

[B]

You're Matthew McConaughey in the library and interstellar, like, no, don't go.

[A]

Don't do it. Don't go. Where are the alpha flies? I never say that in a trail race, but do it.

[B]

Yeah, don't give away the golden ticket either.

[A]

Yeah, don't do that either, because then

[B]

you might get PRP right away in January rather than trying to get to another golden ticket race.

[A]

You wouldn't have done that.

[B]

Yeah, I wouldn't have done that.

[A]

I would have just been back training. Man, I know you.

[B]

I feel like there's an alternate universe where I make the right decisions right away.

[A]

I don't know. It's hard. It's really hard. Okay. Why do you think Jeff Burns didn't look at the ASU2s in this? Just because, like, you know, we have the old Boston as the Adidas, Boston as the control shoe. We should throw an ASU2 here and see what happens.

[B]

Yeah, I'd be so curious.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe he knew the data would be bad and he's like, I don't want to fuck with Adidas.

[B]

I mean, that is a point. On these races. Generally, I think the Adidas athletes are at a disadvantage with their shoes relative to the hood HOKA athletes. I think the HOKA athletes are way better off.

[A]

Actually, rank for me, Adidas, hoka, Nike. I'm not gonna put anything else in there. I was gonna put some other smaller brands, maybe Brooks. Yeah.

[B]

So the Cascadia Elite. So I would say Hoka first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the Brooks Cascadia elite are 1, 2. And then between definitely the Ultrafi next in that line. So the Nike shoe. And then I think Adidas is at the bottom now.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

And I think that that plays a role, you know, so. Especially because HOKA is creating prototypes, and maybe Adidas is creating prototypes for these athletes too. I'm not sure.

[A]

Actually, I should know this. What is the ruling around wearing prototypes for race day?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like that shouldn't be allowed, considering the road rulings. Like, we're very clear on that. But I'm like. Having athletes wear prototypes for Western states feels a little tricky.

[B]

No one gives a shit about trail running.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Okay, let's get on to the Z1VZ2 study. But before that, quick promo for patreon. Go to patreon.com swap swap just starts at $5 a month. There's unlimited numbers of training plans for every distance, every level. Uh, here's one that's really fun. Also worthwhile testimonial for your training plans. This is the workout from the last Week of the power builder plan. The last time I did four by mile was on April 20th and I averaged a minute per mile slower. So thank you for making me faster. It works. Which we knew is a collective, but now I know you know, um, and then also the winner of The Broken Arrow 18K wrote in and said that they were using it and they were shocked themselves. And also they wore Nike Vomero for broken arrow 18k.

[A]

What?

[B]

Isn't that wild?

[A]

I mean, Broken Arrow is fairly technical. That's impressive.

[B]

Yeah. And then also last week we have a hamstring exercise on there. That's a video that is created for high hamstrings specifically. I've always been on the lookout for the ultimate exercise for high hamstring strength. It's my, my weakness before my foot burst. And this exercise has been game changing. All you need is a chair. So go check that out.

[A]

Also, if you want to see David sky humping for $5 a month, that is your avenue. I filmed it. You were like, we're going to film this outside on our like, like our top deck porch. And we did. And you were just humping the sky in a great way.

[B]

Hey, we'll give it to you for free, Patreon if you are. If you can't afford it, you can see me sky hump for free. And as always, that's a serious offer. Just message us, no questions asked. We'll get it for free. So patreon.com swapswap not doing a good

[A]

job advertising for your only fans. You're like, it's for free.

[B]

I don't know, I feel like it'd be a good way to get your only fans out there.

[A]

Like democratize OnlyFans.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It's like the world needs to see my feet or whatever.

[A]

Not your feet.

[B]

Well, that's the main thing, right? Like is people want to like if you want to see like normal stuff, you probably don't go to someone's like specific channel. If you want to see like the freaky shit, you go to their like, I don't know, you go to that, right?

[A]

I guess so. I mean I feel like there's other attributes of your body that I'd rather see first.

[B]

Man, you need to research onlyfans before you talk to me like this.

[A]

I mean I just stared at you ass for 50 miles on a ride. I spent a lot of time back there.

[B]

Yeah. Do you understand how in defeat people are?

[A]

No, no, that's. They see, that always blows my mind. That's a little weird. I mean, it's whatever. Whatever floats your boat. I uplift. But, like, for what some reason, I'm just not behind that.

[B]

We've talked about foot fetishes a lot on this podcast.

[A]

Do you think that cross section, like, do you think the cross sectional.

[B]

Like, how many people it has? Like, what.

[A]

Do you think it overlaps with the athletic population? Because, like, athletic population. Feet are so nasty. You know, I've been in the business of looking at a lot of blisters and a lot of just, like, you know, bunions and things. Like, like, you know, foot abnormalities. And so I feel like if you're. That would be a more common fetish if you're not an athlete, or it'd

[B]

be the perfect thing to get into if you're, like, an athlete. Everyone's showing each other feet pictures all the time, right?

[A]

Sense in the toenails on the Internet.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I am truly fascinated by foot fetishes because I don't know what the exact percentage is. Can you Google that?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

What percentage of people have foot fetishes? Because, like, that type of thing. Maybe it's just an Internet thing.

[A]

Did you see that typing? That must have been the ketone. Caffeine. That was fast.

[B]

Beautiful. 5 to 10% of the general population. So that's, you know, many, many millions of people.

[A]

That's higher than the people that believe in flat Earth. We talked about that last week. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, as it should be. Like, I feel like feet are a little better than flat earth. I don't. Don't appreciate your comparison, but if you don't have a foot fighter, that probably feels a little, like, unusual to you, but it shows that clearly there's something in the human brain that is tied to that because, you know, sexual, like, behavior is tied to evolutionary programming and genetics in addition to environment and how that interacts with genetics. And so as you think about that, you're like, wow, the human brain is so cool that, like, this pathway can be touched for a lot of different people. And I do not think it's a cultural.

[A]

This pathway can be touched for a lot of people.

[B]

Exactly. Trust me, these are all Easter eggs for my fans out there. But. But that's so cool, because I don't think it's, like, societal. Like, there's a lot of arguments about sexual attraction, that it's purely societal. Like, whatever the image of attraction is in your day will be what you're attracted to. And obviously there's a lot of that. But I don't Think that applies with these types of things necessarily. It probably ties more to developmental patterns in the human brain. And to me, that's so cool because so many of our behaviors are probably dictated by similar pathways, but there isn't this, like, outcome that someone's paying someone $40 a month to see pictures of their feet.

[A]

So that's pretty high.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you could get $40 a month for your feet, you should have at it.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. You could definitely get $40 a fee. Why are we not doing that? I guarantee, Megan, if we put your feet online, we would get so much money.

[A]

I'm talking $40 a month per person.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, no, no. We could. Megan, if we put pictures of your feet online.

[A]

My feet are your feet, not Matthew.

[B]

No one's worried about my feet. It could be very small. Your feet, though. Oh, my God. I'm serious.

[A]

I wonder if small feet or bigger feet are.

[B]

Oh, I actually don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think to putting serious on it. I think you can make $150,000 a year with your feet.

[A]

What? Yeah.

[B]

Megan, 5 to 10% of the population.

[A]

Okay. Would you rather make $150,000 a year with your feet or with coaching AI? Give me an answer.

[B]

Oh, definitely my feet.

[A]

I actually agree.

[B]

I have no problem with showing my feet to people.

[A]

Yeah, they're environmentally friendly.

[B]

Do you have any problem with it?

[A]

No, no, I love it.

[B]

I mean, I uplift all behavior that doesn't harm anyone, you know. That's amazing.

[A]

Okay, let's change it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

$150,000 a year your ass or coaching AI?

[B]

Coaching my ass. Oh, sure. I mean, the problem is I would if I needed to stage it and stuff. It was just like, pictures of my butt that, like, people took. Book an ambient life like you took. I wouldn't.

[A]

People talk.

[B]

I don't care. Anybody can take it. No, I mean, the problem would be, like, it would be way more cringe to take the pictures and to go that step. Like, I actually really admire people that are on only fans or whatever because it's a hustle, like anything.

[A]

Oh, it is a hustle. Yeah. There's actually a hiker on there that's doing like the Appalachian Trail and pct and I'm like, that's so cool. She also posts pink tents and I'm like, I'm in.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Side note, I don't follow her, but I'm like, that's a genius way to fund adventure.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, sure. And a way to fund a lot of things, actually. So I mean, it's an interesting pathway to society. Um, as we were talking about that, only fans, it reminded me of the prediction markets. Like how she and Poly market.

[A]

Oh yeah. Did you check them for western states?

[B]

Can you check them right now? Um, I want to see what they're saying. For western states, maybe Look Kalshi. But we can see. Um, so look Kalshi, see if there's any on there.

[A]

How do you spell that?

[B]

K A L, S, H I. This is not an ad. These things are the depth of society.

[A]

I'm not saying that. I don't know. I have obviously looked at polymarkers.

[B]

I think it's on. These things are not good. Do not do them.

[A]

That's the Western Conference odds. Oh, the San Antonio versus Oklahoma City.

[B]

Right. Jim Walmsley at the end of the search, maybe there's no market.

[A]

I bet you there's no market.

[B]

I feel like there has to be.

[A]

Okay, there's no market.

[B]

No market. Unfortunate. Again, no one gives a shit about trail running. In conclusion.

[A]

So we should make a market.

[B]

Yeah, sure. This is our next thing.

[A]

This is our next thing.

[B]

Okay. The answer is on the list of things to make money from. This is at the very bottom of the list to me. So, you know, be careful with these websites. I feel like they are not, not good actually.

[A]

I imagine it's like Poly Market. Would that be ethical? It wouldn't be ethical. As coaches, I mean we would never do this but like it probably would. Would be unethical as coaches to go on there and bet too.

[B]

I mean, I think the entire nature of polymarket and Kalshi is that they are channeling unethical things into like business practice. Insider trading is basically the whole point of these. To have like honest prices in the market or whatever. I mean whatever their justifications are. So I don't know, it's, it's wild stuff. So in conclusion, if anybody wants to see our feet, join our Patreon onto the study. This is on the intensity of easy training. It's called neuromuscular adaptations performance and monitoring of endurance training within moderate domain intensity. Uh, it was a six week intervention with 10 participants, six men and four women that were split up into two groups. So there were 20 total, so 10 in each group. Um, one of the groups did their easy training at the upper limit limit of the moderate domain. And so that's like the top end of LT1, aka the top end of Zone 2, basically. And then the other group trained 10 to 15% below it and they published

[A]

These different training, like how they were doing the training plans online in their, in their research article. And they also added some intensity to the training, though they were not doing any top end power development. And I think that actually becomes relevant for some of the study findings. And then they also volume. They like match the volume between groups, which is relevant because if you have a group that's running slower, like, you know, having them run the same volume is interesting.

[B]

Yeah. And I also just a couple ideas on this. First calling it the moderate domain. I hate when research does that. No one uses the term moderate domain in actual. And it's also severe. And then it's. That's heavy is another one of the domains. I don't understand why the researchers in exercise physiology do this. Just use our common parlance. Don't use strange words. And then I realized I just used the word parlance as I was saying this, which I've not heard anyone use since 1880. So I'm guilty of it too. But I still don't get it.

[A]

Do you know what D prime is?

[B]

No.

[A]

They use it.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. Like the training term. I didn't know exactly what it was. I had to look at it.

[A]

Do you know what it is?

[B]

Not really.

[A]

Yeah. I was in the abstract and I was like, what is D prime? It's essentially the distance an athlete can accumulate running above critical speed. But I was in the abstract and I was like, what in the world is this? Why are they using D prime?

[B]

Also critical speed. There's just so much of. So much, so much that is just not used in the real world. I'm like, why? Why do that?

[A]

It's like a circle jerk of acronyms. Like, come on guys, join their only fans guys. It's relevant acronyms.

[B]

Um, okay, so here is the big finding. Everyone was the same. Like that's the big finding is there wasn't any difference between training at a lower intensity for like the bulk of training volume or training at a higher intensity when total load was equalized. And that that's pretty like substantial of a finding because we get this question all the time, how fast should you go? Is there anything that's too slow? All those types of questions. And basically what we're seeing in research and in the real world is generally as long as you're accumulating the volume over time, the aerobic volume, it doesn't necessarily matter that much where exactly on the intensity spectrum it lies. It probably depends a lot more on are you showing up for workouts feeling good? Are you adapting over time, are you staying healthy?

[A]

Do you think this is mechanically a little bit different for trail running where downhills are a factor? Like I could see a place where, like, if you're spending some of that easy running flowing on downhills, that that might lead into better racing, where downhills are such a key variable compared to this study, which is not analyzing trail runners. Do you think there's a distinction between roadrunners and trail runners?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

And do you think there's a point where like easy running is too easy, that like you're not getting the mechanical stimulus of more efficient training miles?

[B]

I don't think so. I think you'd have to go so slow for that that you wouldn't be running at that point. Um, maybe a marathoner that is a 2:10 marathoner. So running 5 minute pace for the marathon might feel that at 12 minute or 13 minute per mile. But I think even 10 minute per mile would be getting the adaptations for those people. So for a three hour marathon or a six hour marathon or I couldn't see anything being too slow. I think the complication becomes this is where distance becomes helpful. Because if you're just going on time, 30 minutes, very, very slow and 30 minutes faster are two different stimuli. And it's why we don't train athletes by time unless we kind of have an idea of how fast they go in general. And so we're equating it to distance in our head. But meanwhile, three miles at, you know, at easy pace versus five miles at, or maybe the better way to say that is five miles at a slow pace versus 30 minutes at a faster pace probably is very similar aerobic adaptations over time. And so I think distance is usually the best way to equalize aerobic stress for that reason in runners. Um, because otherwise you might be able to get something that is too slow because it's just not enough stress.

[A]

And this is, to me, the study is a warm hug because I feel like I've been coming into my jogging era recently and I love it so much. Like, why is jogging so wonderful?

[B]

Jogging is the best.

[A]

And I don't think I do it enough. Like, you know, I'm fairly low mileage compared to like the like athletes that I'm racing. And a lot of that's because I do bike training. And so like when I have that cross training and that bike training, part of me is like, okay, like, you know, I have four to five days a week to run. I need to make that more efficient. Yeah, but now I'm just like, I love jogging, I want to jog. It's so great. And this study is a warm hug to scientifically support that.

[B]

Yeah, almost there. Every athlete I see who has long careers of long term progress finds to embrace jogging. Like you just find that that's the path to go. And I think sometimes there are these examples of people in systems with fast running. It is almost always very young athletes with very high VO2 maxes who respond

[A]

to almost any stimulus, aka the NCAA.

[B]

The NCAA. Perfect. Harvard being maybe the go to example.

[A]

But they also, I mean we were in Boston. They're also, I think training environment matters a little bit too. Like they're training at sea level, they're training a lot on flat ground along the Charles. And it's like a different context to me than training at altitude in the mountains as well.

[B]

But you never see a 32 year old that trains that way.

[A]

It's true. Yeah.

[B]

And that's also when people are running crazy fast marathon times nowadays, especially for women. And so I think that understanding easy can be purely easy is really good. So here's a question from a listener. Uh, this may be a silly question, but is zone one okay as an option for aerobic development? Zone two seems like what everyone talks about. But would easier efforts do the same thing? Or is there a thing such as too easy? I'm not particularly fast and seem to be quite good at taking it really easy. Not sure if this ends up not doing anything for my overall fitness. Haha.

[A]

Well, this study is an amazing answer to that question. Um, do you think it depends at all on athlete level? Like do you think athletes that are newer to the sport might get more benefit from like mechanical benefit from running their easy runs a little faster?

[B]

Well, I think they might need to because otherwise you can't run if you're staying in zone one. Like a lot of athletes will be pushing into zone two whenever they run. For as you become more advanced and you have that option, I think whatever helps you feel the best is fine. And so advanced athletes do need to do some focus zone too because that's almost a workout out. It's like steady running at that point, but for most people you can slow it down plenty. As long as you're doing power development alongside it, like, you know, hill strides and things like that, you can run as slow as you freaking want. That's maybe the largest coaching realization I've had over time. That kind of confirmed my preexisting biases, which is faster easy running doesn't translate to Faster racing at all. Um, what does is you know, layering in aerobic volume over time. And aerobic volume, much like the study said, said is stress equalized rather than time equalized. And so as long as you're getting the stress, it's fine that it's easy. But if you're going pure, purely easy, you need to be doing more volume. And so if you're doing low volume, you probably need to be doing that at a slightly higher overall intensity because otherwise you wouldn't be getting enough stress. So you know, this assumes an unlimited amount of time to equalize. But if you don't have that normalization, then you probably do need to be running your easy just a little bit faster.

[A]

Yeah. And that goes for time limited athletes. So we've been answering questions for athletes starting residency, which is like coming up right now. And so like that's an example of athletes that might be a little bit more time limited and get some efficiency from running just a little bit faster.

[B]

Yeah. And then there are times where you just kind of want to run faster in general. Right.

[A]

You're just flowing.

[B]

Long runs are a great example of this. Like yes, there are times very easy long runs, but most of the time your long run, if in the swap framework it is considered a workout, like it is always a bigger stress run that intentionally you just shuffling that will probably be less like efficacious for your long term adaptation. Um, but around that in your workout, fill in with whatever makes you accumulate volume the best. And then you know, for advanced athletes there's a place for incorporating steady run. Hanni Hans is a great example of this. So all year all training block he has done something that is a been a very fun experiment that overlaps something in swap training theory that might stick around, might not because it's been ubiquitous for his entire training cycle, which is Saturday, he has a key long run, usually on trails, often with intensity. And you can see these on Strava. He's a monster. But on Sunday, every time he did two hours, zone two, which for Hans is quite quick in times that we were running like 6:15 or 6:25 pace on Magnolia Road, which is hilly here in Boulder. So he's doing like a quality steady run for him on Sunday after his long run. And it'll be very interesting to see how it helps him feel like, you know, we've had this validated over time with his past results. But that's just shows how you can start to play with wrinkles. Um, but I think in a universal sense the slower the better, as long as you're accumulating enough stress.

[A]

And he's pretty massive training volume as well. And so he gets those other miles in within the context of the week, which is great. Okay. One of my favorite all, like all time, favorite training days was yesterday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We got to do a 16 mile run date. And I just followed your footsteps on trails for 16 miles. And we were jogging it up and it felt like college out there. Like, I don't know what it was. Like, just like maybe it was just the chill vibes on trails bouncing around together. But it was so much fun.

[B]

It was so fun to be with you.

[A]

Yeah. And then I felt, I mean, I felt great this morning running. And I think there's some benefit in like, you know, some of those easy effort long runs, especially like a 16 miler, which is a good sweet spot. Like I just felt so good this morning.

[B]

Well, that's. That points out the idea of this study. So you did 16 miles. It was slow for you. So you were on your feet for much longer than you usually are.

[A]

You 2 hours and 20 minutes, which is for me longer than I typically would. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you accumulated a ton of stress, like or, or the same amount of stress as you would in a harder, easy run. But you also got good recovery outcomes because your cortisol levels and all of that weren't super elevated until our children

[A]

started screaming simultaneously at 7pm Boom. Yep.

[B]

And that's a training adaptation too. Helps your fatigue resistance. Okay, a couple quick comments here. Should we do these?

[A]

Let's do them. They're fun.

[B]

Okay. These are fun little things I put in throughout the week. I like this me venting time. First one, Brian Johnson, the like anti aging crusader guy that wants to live forever.

[A]

We've talked about him on here a bunch. He optimizes everything and basically shares all of his data, including his sperm data. We've seen like a lot of data from Brian about is personal health. Yeah, it's actually, it's interesting. I like, you know, it's one of those things that like, we share very different philosophies on the world, but I find myself reading this stuff.

[B]

I find myself reading it. I find.

[A]

Why do you think we find ourselves reading this?

[B]

I find myself rooting for him.

[A]

Yeah, I do too. I mean, I root for a lot of people.

[B]

Yeah, I root for almost everybody. Like, almost everybody. There are some, but then the exceptions,

[A]

I think it's a good thing. Like if we rooted for 100% of people, we would just be like Pushovers

[B]

and the exceptions are make it so much sweeter.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

The hater aid goes down so well when it's just, like, one out of a thousand people you're not rooting for. For, um. So what he cited in, like, a tweet were sleep studies that found that if you sleep next to your partner, maybe your sleep is a little bit worse overall when they measure this in labs.

[A]

Well, he's clearly not a codependent sleeper.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think you're a codependent sleeper?

[B]

Yeah, a little bit. Not that much, though.

[A]

I think my codependency in sleeping is really high.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think part of it is, like, you know, we live in a farmhouse, and there's a lot of, like, noises. There's a lot going on. And when you're not there, I find myself being like, is there someone in the kitchen at 3m? And that is, like, a fundamental disruption to my sleep.

[B]

Why do I make that better?

[A]

I mean, because you're gonna go handle the thing in the kitchen at 3am

[B]

Megan, I would need to go stretch my foot for 10 minutes.

[A]

I know. And then you'd like. Every time. I'm like, sometimes I'm like, oh, my God, David, there's, like, something downstairs. And you're like, okay, like, I'll, like, go down. And you just, like, saunter down naked and, like, handshake with whoever's in our kitchen. So maybe I would be better with, like, a field hockey stick.

[B]

Yeah. Just go up to him and be like, can I see your feet? Yeah. I don't know. I think I'm probably not helping you too much, but I appreciate it.

[A]

It's the vibes.

[B]

It's the vibes.

[A]

I believe in you. I'm like, if something seriously happened, like, I feel like you'd figure it out.

[B]

I would figure it out. I like it. That's wonderful. So he tweeted this. I have never slept next to Kate, who is his partner. The only thing we do in bed is have sex. We have separate beds and homes.

[A]

Homes.

[B]

Should you do the same? Not necessarily. The science is split. Here's the data, and then he goes in. And I think it just points out the. The uselessness of applying studies to everyday life in general, because who gives a shit about the data? Like, obviously, if you look at a snapshot of anyone's behaviors and habits, whether it involves sleeping with someone or not sleeping with a partner or whatever, I

[A]

wonder if they have kids.

[B]

I don't know. I don't think so.

[A]

Yeah. I Mean, I feel like kids are not optimizing your personal longevity, that's for sure. Well, no, actually they probably are. I think past a certain, you know, I think like our stage is probably not, but once they get older, they actually almost certainly are.

[B]

Yeah, they do. In the theory beyond that, like, of longevity caretakers.

[A]

Caretakers, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, basically you're just getting people that can. If you don't have nursing home access. Essentially, yeah.

[A]

I was gonna say I've wiped a lot of poop. So they owe us.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, I don't think that's the case. They don't owe us shit. And hey, if you're out there and your parents ever make you feel. And I know that's actually.

[A]

I'm kidding, you didn't mean that.

[B]

But this is a serious point I make to people.

[A]

So like, well, this is relevant because I wonder if like Leo and Ollie are ever going to go back and listen to these episodes is like, you actually do not owe us. That's a poop joke, nothing more.

[B]

Our kids are never going to listen to these episodes. Have you ever met a child or a kid or a teenager?

[A]

Maybe they're like, maybe when they're like 25 and they're doing some long, long runs, they're going to be interested.

[B]

They're only going to listen to this if we die tragically in a plane crash and they're like, I need to hear Mama and Dada again. But, but to be serious, you know, we get a lot of messages about people with mixed relationships with their parents. And you know, coming off of Father's Day, this might be a little bit relevant. And I think, think now that I'm a parent, I can stand confidently behind this assertion that you don't owe your parents anything. Right? Like that they, you did not choose to be brought into the world. You chose nothing about this. They brought you into the world. And I think sometimes parents are like, I did all these things for you, give back to me. And I'm like, fuck that shit. Like, that is not the way parenting works. It is a one way street of obligation. And hopefully you raise a kid that wants to like, you know, I don't know, interact with you or whatever. But there is so much stuff out there about parents making it feel like the burden goes in the other direction. I'm like, what are you talking about?

[A]

It is beautifully said and I think

[B]

sometimes it's a warm hug because people are like, oh my God, they did so much for me. I owe it to them. It's like, no, you don't. The obligation is purely in the other direction. They are here to caretake you. And I think it's really important to recognize that as you go through these challenging things. And I mean, there's a lot of discussions online about similar topics related to people going no contact with their parents that are emotionally manipulated. And I think a lot of the emotional manipulation comes back to the parents having unresolved things about. Not like, about this dynamic, you know, about being like, oh, well, I woke up last night with Ollie, you know, and now I'm gonna hold it against him.

[A]

It was 1:15 and I rolled over and I was like, happy birthday, David. Our child is screaming and it's your birthday. We're an hour in, we're just gonna see all the hours of your birthday.

[B]

But it's like, Ollie didn't choose any of that. Ollie's trying to be a human right now, like, and I. I'm the one that put existence upon him.

[A]

I mean, you. It was probably more likely me, I don't know, with Ollie, I think, Ollie, that's probably you.

[B]

That was my fault. I'm sorry, Megan.

[A]

But it's like at the same time too, they're like, for me, I. I don't feel that. Like, I don't want to project that burden of obligation because they're the ultimate source of joy for me. Like, I feel like I've become a much more peaceful human since being a mom. And like, thank you, Leo and Ollie for that. Like, there's something about having that like, background of like this life purpose that has just like been so peaceful for me. And obviously that's like such an individual personal thing. But for me, it's like, I don't even see it that way because they're the ultimate expression of joy for me.

[B]

Okay, okay, great, Mr. Rogers over there, as they're screaming in our faces. No, just kidding. I agree 100%. But the Brian Johnson idea here is that if you take studies and think of them this way, you're going to end up with a lot of very strange behavior patterns and to liberate yourself from that. And that also goes for exercise physiology or any field like that. I think it just becomes studies or snapshots in time that are never going to capture the complexities of complex systems. And much in the way that we talked about foot fetishes very seriously as being these really unpredictable manifestations of the human brain also, everything works that way. And so you can operate of using this as information, but it basically just validates what you know in your heart already. And I'm sure for Brian and Kate this does work, right?

[A]

Like I was gonna say, this might not even be a strange setup for them. Like this might just like what they get joy in life from is like living this optimal life and having two houses and for sure like functioning in

[B]

this way and validate that a hundred percent. But if you take that to the extremes, you get people that live these biohacking lives and stick themselves in mid journey scanners and it creates with the dolphins. I mean, that honestly sounds pretty good.

[A]

I know, right?

[B]

Dolphins are into fucking.

[A]

Oh, well, yeah, they really are.

[B]

They really are like excessively so from what I understand. So maybe that's why they use dolphins.

[A]

I mean, I'll earn dolphins some of the smart, hardest creatures.

[B]

Yes, I believe so.

[A]

Yeah. I mean that tracks are octopi into. Yeah, I mean, remember the octopus teacher? That documentary?

[B]

That documentary.

[A]

I mean, I don't know if the octopus is into but like humans that really want to. An octopus.

[B]

Interesting, huh? What other creatures are super smart? Pigs are. Right?

[A]

Yeah, I don't want to think about that just because I'm just.

[B]

I'm just really interested in that.

[A]

I don't like to eat what I. It's not a good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Not a good circle of light.

[B]

Oh, Megan, Megan, Megan. You just said something that I'm like, do I. Do I tag that joke?

[A]

You should tag it. Do you go for it?

[B]

No, I don't want to. Because it's cringe.

[A]

Is it sad? Is it sad?

[B]

No, no, it's not sad. It's the opposite. It's cringe.

[A]

Don't do it.

[B]

Like, do you like to eat what you fuck all my bros. Give me a high five. Also my lesbian friends. Also my non binary friends who are

[A]

into that high five. That was great.

[B]

Okay, sorry.

[A]

Actually I'm glad you tagged that because I didn't even think of it that way. Thank you.

[B]

All right, onto my last piece of venting here, which is marathons that to track. Make you download their tracking app.

[A]

Yeah. That is so annoying.

[B]

So I was looking at my phone. I have like 20 apps from random ass races. I have something on my phone called Shazam Racing.

[A]

Shazam Racing.

[B]

I think it was the four mile national championships where Rachel Ruddell and Ali Ostrander were on the podium. So yeah, let's stop doing this. Why are you making me download your app? You're definitely taking all my data and feeding it to AI models.

[A]

Stop. Actually, did you notice how impeccable the broken arrow Live tracking was. Yeah, it was amazing. So you just toggled to the website and press results and it gave you the live race that was going on. It sorted it by male, female and had non binary category in there too. And it was just like, it was great tracking. Like, I feel like Broken Arrow as a race has become so well structured and so well done.

[B]

Broken arrow. Arrow crushed it this year.

[A]

They crushed it. Besides putting men and women in the ascent at the same time.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

That's my. That's my hot take. Yeah.

[B]

Um, what do we want to talk about on Broken Arrow? One thing I do, like, just at the start, they had a separate start for non binary athletes where they wanted to give them that platform for one of the distances where it was like especially advertised thing. I thought that was incredibly special and a wonderful way to show like inclusivity for those athletes where it just makes them in this one race have that opportunity to like fully express themselves and, you know, to get celebrated for that. And so I thought that was amazing.

[A]

That's great. They also should have done that for the women's field. In the ascent, the women were just getting polled BY like the 45th men, like the lead women were. And then there was Ana. Oh, my gosh. The sprint finished.

[B]

Ana Gibson.

[A]

Ana Gibson, what a champ. She could do anything.

[B]

One of the most legendary moments in trail running history. I might post this on Instagram rather than my reel. And that's a good idea. The final minute and a half of this race, Ana comes from behind and passes Joyce and Gerald right at the end on this, like right after the stairs.

[A]

Well, her stairs were so efficient. She was on all fours on the stairs and Joyce was using like the handles on the side. And I was like, anna, look at that stair efficiency.

[B]

I don't know which one would be more efficient.

[A]

I think, I think using the arms would be.

[B]

But Anna is a fascinating training theory point here too. So after the Olympics, where she went in schema, we had a long term reset time where we just focused on aerobic development, basically intel strides in power and things like that. But throughout this process, while we have been opportunistic with getting in some workouts, it has mostly been about aerobic development and power development. And then she went into this race having no idea where she was, fitness wise. And you know, I knew because I have her data and. But I didn't even tell her that because I didn't care. I wanted her to just go out and express herself and she did and she wins this race. And it may be one of the best climbing performances ever in human history. Um, it was a two minute course record.

[A]

And she emerged from the fall so, like, they were on the stairs and we couldn't see, like, Ana was closing in on Joyce. And then all of a sudden, she emerged from the F first as, like, the way the camera showed it. And it was just like, it was so beautiful the way it was done.

[B]

So beautiful. And it just points out that training theory is really cool. But mostly it comes down to aerobic and power development over time. And you don't need to get too fancy with that all the time. Like, she does it through multiple sports. She does it in adventures. A lot of it is like, oh, friends are doing this thing. I'm gonna go do that. And by embracing who she is, her authentic self, she's been able to become one of the best athletes of all time. And I think, think that is so important to know about yourself, is that you don't have to be incredibly structured, even though some structure helps to achieve the types of things that are at the peak of human physio. Physiological accomplishment. And I think sometimes the narrative is you have to lock in. In fact, like, Ana and I had this conversation like four weeks ago. I was like, ana, don't lock in. We don't want to lock in. Just do your thing. And if we learn that we need to lock in in a different way, we will. But I think locking in can be negative for some personalities.

[A]

And I love how she's embraced that and is like planning big races in other sports. And it's like, that is such a fun part of Ana. Okay, but here's my final thing in the soapbox is, you know, as they were doing that stairs, the men were creating a traffic jam. Get the men out of there. I was like, you are blocking the front of the women's race. Why is this happening right now on tight stairs?

[B]

We did get a close up of a crotch right before because, like.

[A]

Oh, a lot of crotches. Yeah, it was a camera.

[B]

It was a camera that had, like, some foreshortening. So you were seeing some of the men just hanging around, and there was an orange crotch. I will never forget for the rest of my life as I'm waiting and, you know, my heart rate is like 180. I'm so stressed, right? Because there's thousands of dollars on the line. And this is. You could tell Anna had that fire in her. And I'm just looking at this orange crotch, and I think it imprinted on me Like a Mother Goose now. And that orange crotch is my mom.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

And what I'm saying is I do not, I'm not obligated.

[A]

So thus you're not obligated to the orange crotch?

[B]

No, I'm not obligated, but the orange crotch is obligated to me. So if you're the owner of the orange crotch, come get your child in aisle seven.

[A]

It's probably Kirsten. Helen.

[B]

No, it wasn't Kristen.

[A]

I was gonna say that Nike shorts

[B]

he finished a long time ago.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Do not, do not say that about Kirsten Alley. Anything else we wanna talk about broken arrow. Not really. It was incredible, amazing coverage.

[A]

And Danny Moreno came back in the 46k after like a long term injury and I just like, she is awesome. Like such a cool human and I root for her so hard and to see her do that made me excited. And Rachel Drake got third while like coming back postpartum after baby number two and in residency. And I was just like the women out there. I was just inspired.

[B]

You can't skip over Sarah Carter, Swap athlete in second.

[A]

Oh my goodness.

[B]

In 23k is the most competitive race we'll ever see. Um, it's remarkable to, to coach these athletes and see what's happening at the top end of the sport. And I think that's also going to come to ultras. And that's what we're going to see at Western States. To bring it full circle is broken arrow points toward this momentum that's happening within the sport. But within the long ultras, that momentum gets stopped a little bit by things like extreme heat, by logistics, by GS,

[A]

but just a ton of variables.

[B]

But you take out the heat at Western States and the course isn't that hard. We're going to see a race that's being able to be run much like the road marathons that are happening at Boston or something. And that creates this laboratory where we're going to learn so much more. Like UTMB will never be that interesting of a laboratory to me because it is such a freakishly hard event that you're getting a million other variables. Western States usually is an interesting laboratory, but so based on heat physiology that you smooth away a lot of that this year. It's going to be like, all right everybody, let's see what happens when things are reasonable. It's still going to be warm. But that happens in like seeing and coaching what's going on in every other event, including the short distance road stuff. Wow. Wow. Get your popcorn ready. I can't wait to see what happens.

[A]

Bring your puffy coat too, David. I feel like you often forget to bring your coat to California. And I'm like, it's actually quite cold there at night.

[B]

It is going to be cold. All right. Do we want to do the human mountain lion stick study?

[A]

No. Let's go on to questions.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I can't save it. Do you want to do it? Let's do it.

[B]

It's cool.

[A]

It's cool. Yeah, I like it.

[B]

We talked about it enough already. It's called habitat selection and outdoor recreation help explain human mountain lion conflict. It took six years of data from 36 mountain lions, all of which have tags on them. So kind of cool to know that in the Santa Cruz Mountains there's a bunch of mountain lions cavorting around and they know exactly where they are. Just watching them pass your Strava heat maps.

[A]

We actually ran all the time in Santa Cruz mountains. I wonder how many of these mountain lions we've hung out with.

[B]

That's true. I think about that a lot. How many animals I have been unaware of due to blasting chapel roan really loud.

[A]

You know, you're pretty unaware as a human in general when you're running. So I imagine. Yes. I was about to say just when you're running, I feel like you're very aware in life, like in general. But when you're running, you're pretty blissed out. And I think you probably have missed a lot of animals.

[B]

Yes. But they have not missed me.

[A]

That is hard to miss you.

[B]

And we were aware of it though I do remember one time we ran up Black Mountain in around this area and it was 4 or 5am why did we do that?

[A]

We. Well, with my med school schedule, I ran a lot at 4 and 4:30 and actually mountain lions to me, like, and this the data actually shows. So like, do be careful with like night running. In times in which mountain lions might be unaware of humans typically having traffic on the trail at that time. And so like, that is a very real fear at 4am is encountering a mountain lion that's just like unaware of a human coming through in that pattern. And so we would blast Beyonce.

[B]

Blast Beyonce. Beyonce nephew. We were not attacked once while listening to Beyonce. So there's a vote for the queen.

[A]

That's a good dating point. Actually this weekend we were running and I put my like karaoke phone in my sports bra just because we were like. It was not like we were on like trails by around.

[B]

We were on trails around People? What are you talking about?

[A]

Why were we doing that?

[B]

We were playing great music for them.

[A]

Actually, that's the thing. I don't know if it was great music.

[B]

Yeah, you do some sad boy acoustic guitar shit that I do not stand by.

[A]

Well, I told you. We took a break and I was like, I'm gonna pivot away from sad boycott acoustic. And somehow my algorithms got us back there within one song. Yeah.

[B]

And there was John Mayer waiting for the world to change. And you're like, I love this song. And I'm like, this song sucks.

[A]

You're like, also, these statements in the song were untrue. And that is sad.

[B]

Even though this song came out in 2005, it was written by AI. One day a generation is going to rule the population. Until then, we're waiting, waiting on the world to change. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Our generation does rule some things now and still sucks.

[A]

I vividly remember turning a corner and being like, david, I love this song. And you're like, megan, I fucking hate this song.

[B]

I don't hate this song.

[A]

You told me that.

[B]

Well, my dad listened to it in high school because I was listening to it in an unironic manner. And my wife. My dad was like, david, every generation says that and just know he's wrong. If you want to make change, you actually have to do it now, not wait. And I was like, oh, dad's probably right. And then I waited and didn't do shit other than talk on a podcast. So what do I know? Okay, here's a quote. We reveal that mountain lions proactively avoid outdoor recreation and respond most strongly to long term averages and hourly human trailing use at a fine spatial scales of 30 meters. So this was used Strava heat maps where they determined where runners were actually going based on where the mountain lions were at those times, which.

[A]

What an amazing use of Strava data to combine that the heat maps then with the locations of the mountain lions and to figure that out. I thought that was like an awesome use of data.

[B]

Someone out there has done the most runs in close proximity to mountain lions and they should get some sort of badge on Strava.

[A]

Oh, they should. The local mountain lion legend?

[B]

No, no, just like the international legend.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. Not even local.

[B]

That would be really special.

[A]

And then what they said is we find evidence of a functional response in which individuals, I. E. Mountain lion individuals exposed to higher levels of recreation show progressively increasing tolerance of humans. Which makes sense. So mountain lions that are around humans a lot on trails, you know, have ways of adapting their behavior that are like, you know, they're very adaptive around humans and they're very not responsive.

[B]

What's really interesting is the where the mountain lions were most often, where the humans were most often had low conflict rates. Even though those are the places that humans and mountain lions interacted a ton in this data. So basically, if mountain lions are around you all the time, it's like a common place for them. You're probably safe. What gets a little bit more dangerous is when you're in a place that is less common because there you might get an individual that isn't used to humans.

[A]

I love when they're saying individuals that they're referring to mountain lions. It was trippy to me at first. They're like these individuals and I was like, ah, they're giving mountain lions such good autonomy.

[B]

Yeah. And human tolerant animals. You're a quote whose behavior May Megan just did a computer snafu. Good job. Human tolerant animals whose behavior may in fact facilitate long term coexistence are key here. So do not harass these animals. That's key. And then these findings challenge the commonly held assumption that human tolerant individuals are more likely to be responsible for conflict and suggest that individual differences in spatiotemporal space use do not scale up to affect conflict risk. So, yeah, as always with wildlife, my general thing here is try not to stress too much because if you look at the rates of this and if we knew where every mountain lion was or where every bear was or where every moose was, you'd be freaked out all the time. And there are so many people that write in with phobias about this.

[A]

Same with snakes too. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Anything or even harm like dangerous humans or humans that would be capable of dangerous things.

[A]

Plus, gets back to I'm way more scared of humans than I am a mountain lions.

[B]

No, for sure. You know, choose. Choose the bear. Um, and that though is a general vote to while you practice precautions overall where you don't want to do something that has been objectively taught to you to be unintelligent. A lot of people avoid trails altogether for this reason. And gosh, this is not the way to treat risk in life in general. And like, yes, I have anxieties about other types of risks that are never going to happen.

[A]

Give me an. Your biggest risk anxiety.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, it's not. Every time I'm on a plane, I'm like, this plane's going down for sure. And I'm just Like, but it doesn't statistically, so I'll be okay with it. But I know it's going down, but I try not to.

[A]

You know, I've, like, always been comfortable in planes, and now that I'm a mom, anytime there's turbulence, I'm just like, oh, no, I don't like this.

[B]

Yeah, same, same. And so, I don't know, would you have anything else with your anxiety?

[A]

I'm trying to think of specific things. I actually have a lot, like, related to Leo and Ollie. Like, you know, we're still working on getting Leo swim lessons. Like, he's. He's just. He's taken a little time to be interested in water. And so, like, when he's around, like, moving creeks and things like that, that freaks me out a bit. And so, like, I have a lot related to Leo and Ollie, more so than myself.

[B]

Oh, I totally agree. But understanding this type of data can be a warm hug just to give you relaxation in these settings. Maybe you'll always have anxiety, but if you anchor in the data, it's a place that allows you to not be so worried about it. The same goes with moose, actually. There are a lot of people that come to Colorado, and here you should be more scared of moose than anything, and it makes them so horrified to go on trail runs. In reality, you see moose all the time up here, and it is always fine.

[A]

Actually, if you want to go see a moose, go to Brainerd Lake. I see a moose basically all the time. Definitely less than 30 meters away. And the moose there, I mean, they're very well acclimated to human traffic. Be careful, obviously. But, like, you know, they're beautiful creatures, too.

[B]

And I said it's always fine. Obviously, it's not always fine.

[A]

Well, I actually almost got ran over by a dog chasing a moose. And how often does that happen? It's like. That's just, like a weird freak accident.

[B]

But when you say it's always fine, you mean, like, generally the. If we knew the statistics on every type of risk and you anchored in the one thing that's happened, you would never get near a blender.

[A]

I promise.

[B]

You would stay so far away from, like, every kitchen appliance you've ever seen and vending machines. I mean, vending machines kill a lot more people than any of this shit. And, I mean, I'm not actually sure on that. Look up.

[A]

Google it. How many desks for your vending machines?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God. This would be really sad if someone listening has a connection, connection to this. And I'm sorry. If so, because it's like, you know,

[A]

I mean, what snack would be worth

[B]

it for Fritos guaranteed? I'd say Reese's two to four people every year.

[A]

Oh, that's low. That's low, low, low.

[B]

Okay, what? What is it per. For moose deaths per year? Moose. This is compelling podcasting. Um, okay, we are looking at 1 to 5, so about the same. So vending machines and moose are similar, but most people are not looking at vending machines and being like, oh my God, odd. You know, what's the risk factor here?

[A]

I might now.

[B]

Yeah, sorry, sorry.

[A]

New.

[B]

New fear unlocked. That would be the David way to go.

[A]

It really would. You'd really want those Fritos and also

[B]

just be like so perfect for my personality that I'm having panic attacks about dying at western states or whatever.

[A]

It's the vending machine that does it.

[B]

The vending machine that gets me after all this time. Okay. Oh, let's go on to question and answer. Do we have anything to talk about before we get there?

[A]

No, let's go right to question and answer.

[B]

Okay, let's do it. It. First one on a rivalry. I have an upcoming race and another runner from my community will also be there. Um, they. Yeah. Why?

[A]

Oh, I was gonna. I was just anonymizing it for you.

[B]

Anonymizing gender?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, we're really getting anonymous here. They can be a bit of an ass. When I found out we'd both be in the event together, it was exciting to know another person there. But I was met with a yeah, we're gonna be racist racing. So to downplay that this athlete has allowed it to get under headed a bit as comparison is the thief of joy. What do you do that helps you stay focused on yourself and your own race? And maybe even more importantly, what tips and tricks do you have for taking yourself less seriously, finding joy in running, and remembering just how silly all of this is and can be. Always enjoy listening to your podcast while running because the ridiculous jokes and back and forth balanced with such great insight is something that helps me bring bring me back to earth and smile and laugh while out on the train trails.

[A]

Okay, maybe this is just my weird competitive energy, but part of me is like, oh, hell yeah, there's gonna be someone there that brings a little bit of angst. Use that to channel all of the crushing bitches energy in the world and level yourself up 10%. That's how I would go about it.

[B]

What are you talking about?

[A]

I know, I'm telling you this is not a good vice. This is how I'd handle it. It's called crushing bitches.

[B]

All right, we got a Michael Jordan over here giving the advice.

[A]

No, I'm serious, though. Like, I do think, like, on, like, you know, obviously channeling silly, loving energy, recognizing that none of this matters matters. But take 5% of that and just be like, I'm gonna go crush some bitches. And by crushing bitches, we mean, like, unleashing the best version of yourself. That is.

[B]

I don't think. Megan, Megan, Megan. I think because you're using it in this example, you're giving away that crushing bitches actually means crushing bitches.

[A]

Well, I mean, like, it doesn't matter if you actually beat this person or not, but use it to unlock your best level performance on the day because you're gonna harness some of that angst and just be like, I'm gonna go for it.

[B]

Yeah, Carrying with a wink is good. Carrying too much without a wink can be pretty.

[A]

Like, 5% is good.

[B]

Erosive. Yeah, no, I. I agree.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

I think the big anchoring mechanism here is literally every day to set your intentions about how you want to be in the world, because this energy is something we all share. I mean, we're about to go to western states, and, like, part of us is wrapped up in our ego as coaches. Like, right. This is just tied to ego as it is for every human. Every human out there has a lot of that. And do you want that to be the thing that leads yourself into, like, this thing, which in your case is a race to us is like, just spectating a race or living, you know, like, looking on Instagram am and being like, oh, this person's accomplishment. How does that make me feel? Even if you don't know that person? And the answer is, like, while the evolutionary side of us, the ape side of us might be pointing toward. I want to crush this person, and I'm going to. That's okay. To harness in very small doses.

[A]

I was just going to go to evolution, and you got there first. Yeah.

[B]

Like, it's something we can't control, and it's fine to recognize and recognize that by giving yourself that grace, you'll realize you're not a bad person. Everybody's having those same thoughts all the time about everyone, including people like Ana Gibson or Danny Moreno, who, to me, are the ultimate perfect humans that uplift everybody in the real world. I'm sure they're having those thoughts inside their own head. And so it's recognizing them and then Going from there to be like, no, I want to be the person that cheers for everybody. Or like, I only root against 1 out of 10,000 people. And that hate goes down sweet. And if you can do that over time, that becomes an active habit. And so use this as an opportunity to. Rather than thinking crushing bitches, I think,

[A]

okay, the crushing bitches has a different definition. I think you can uplift all people and, like, root for others and still go crush bitches. Because, like, ego, if you think about it, ego actually like some level of ego, and I think it's a much lower level than most humans have, is evolutionarily adaptive and protective. And so harness that and go crush bitches.

[B]

Oh, my God. Megan.

[A]

David, you need some more. You need more Michael Jordan juicing you.

[B]

It's probably evolutionarily advantageous to, like, I don't know, kill your enemies. We only use evolution to talk about foot fetishes in this house. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's where the wink comes in, is you understand this about yourself, but understand that the wink is not you. Like, you can't let it control your narrative because if you do, you're also going to undercut your own performance. Because when things get very hard out there and if this person does have a good day, you're going to find yourself rooting against them. And that is a negative energy for your own performance.

[A]

And that is fair. And that I do agree with the best performers.

[B]

The people that show up and always perform are never rooting against people.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

They're almost always rooting for everyone and rooting for themselves more. Right. Like, they want themselves to win, but they are not rooting against, like, Jess McLean being the ultimate example of this. Hans Troyer being another, like, he is out there.

[A]

Tara actually another. She just roots for female athletes in the way that is like, the most. I just. I love it so much.

[B]

You want everybody to have a great day, and, yeah, you want yourself to have a better day, but if it doesn't happen, happen, that's okay.

[A]

And.

[B]

And that is not natural. And that's the point where you have to do constant practice. And this is a great opportunity to practice, because if you can bring this into every other aspect of life, you're going to be so much happier. You're going to find yourself, like, more internally at peace. And then also you're probably going to find yourself being a better person and. And touching a part of your ego that goes to, like, how you show up in the world overall, where you identify with this Part where this becomes a part of your identity and it gives you power in every competitive setting.

[A]

And I think to like work through it and reframe it, talk about it, like, I love that you like, even just like emailing this in and sending it to us on Patreon is a way of talking about it and learning about it. And so I think talk about it with your friends, your community, a therapist, like process it ahead of the time.

[B]

I think actually go to this guy or this they go to this they and this they person and tell them, hey, you fucking suck. I hate you, but I'm rooting for you and see what happens. That'll be great. Okay, next one on burping. Don't do that. I have some questions for you about burping and fueling. How often should I be burping? Would burping not enough lead to that pukey feeling or cause severe bloating? Or would over fueling for the effort and under hydrating more likely be the cause of those things?

[A]

Well, I'll start with the final question. Is not being able to burp often can lead to very severe nausea, especially under circumstances of like high carb fueling and high, like high doses of taking

[B]

in liquid or just long efforts in general. The longer you go, the more not being able to burp or burping inadequately causes issues and it can be a massive problem. If, if there's one place of awareness we've probably helped like hundreds of people with it, is that if you cannot

[A]

burp at all, that is a medical issue.

[B]

That's a medical issue that has a very simple solution for most people, which is a Botox injection into the throat area. I was told by listeners, into a different part of the throat than I thought it was. And I apologize. But I'm not the one injecting, so it doesn't matter. Ask your AI bot.

[A]

The dolphins are injecting. Come on.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. No, we're injecting dolphins in this house. And so if you can, if you. That's not, you go to a doctor right away. I think ear, ear, nose and throat. Like an ENT doctor would be where to go and do this. I had an athlete get it recently, this procedure. And all of a sudden it's like a week or two of really nasty stuff because you've never burped, really? And it's just really uncomfortable and you're confused. And after a while they're like, oh, this explains why I wasn't good at running before longer distances, because not being able to do this becomes a major problem. But the corollary of that, like the taking that to his extremes, means even if you can burp, fine, it is something that you probably should think about longer events, because if you can't offload some of that gas, it can start to build up and it especially can affect gastric emptying rates of fluids. And so my general rule is when I'm doing these long events, I usually don't have to think about it. But especially in ultras, after I take a drink, I always try to let a little, little air out. If you can do that, I think it does help.

[A]

Do you think it's a point in which you're burping too much and that actually inhibits, like GI effects? I Do you think, like, I think there could be a line here over burp syndrome? Over burp syndrome.

[B]

I'm realizing there are probably people that have very extreme phobias of what we're talking about right now.

[A]

But they're probably, they probably people that can't burp.

[B]

They're probably the people that need this

[A]

the most because I often do see that connected.

[B]

Yeah. The people that can't burp almost always have childhood issues with vomiting. And it connects. And it's very strange. It's not written about nearly enough. We have ide. We should write a scientific paper on this.

[A]

I mean, we've seen so many athletes

[B]

in this bucket, including professional athletes. And. But the, the flip side would be like, I think if you don't. I don't think there's any amount of, of maximal amount of burping that would be a problem necessarily.

[A]

I think there could be. Yeah. I think we need to do a little more research on that. I think you're getting close.

[B]

Okay. You think I'm getting close?

[A]

You're burp a lot, but I think

[B]

that's why I'm good at Leadville.

[A]

Oh. I mean, it's, it's hard to say you're getting close when you're also the guy that's done 150 grams of carbs an hour at Leadville.

[B]

Yeah. And I think maybe western states was just a problem of burping.

[A]

You didn't burp enough.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't burp enough.

[A]

Interesting. Were you subconscious, like, were you like, self conscious of your burping? Self conscious. Self conscious.

[B]

I mean, I don't, I don't know exactly what happened there.

[A]

Um, everything Dan Jones was around, you're like, I can't burp. Burp.

[B]

I just burped right as we were

[A]

talking, I actually find. So I've been back on the precision tab train for my hydration and that actually helps, like give a gentle burp for me. And I was kind of like migrating away from those just because of, like feeling some GI issues. But I'm back and I think I just need to train my stomach to them. And then they're actually like, they're great options for racing.

[B]

So maybe don't overthink burping. I imagine if you think too much about it, it can be a problem, but one of those bodily functions that will help you in races and, you know, offloading gases. Not a bad thing.

[A]

Off gassing and either side. Right.

[B]

I'm Old Faithful out there. Every two seconds, but you don't have to be every two seconds. All right, let's get on Listener corner. Anything to talk about before we get there?

[A]

John Gianji. Okay, I'm pulling out. Look at this bag.

[B]

Oh, that is a bag and a half.

[A]

That is a bag and a half.

[B]

That is a bag that would make you sign up for an AI coaching app. Cover photo.

[A]

Isn't it beautiful?

[B]

Yeah, I fill that with cash.

[A]

Oh. Oh, my goodness.

[B]

Me and Anthropic are partnering tomorrow.

[A]

Cash and two bottles in the side. I love this bag. This is the Ultra Hauler. Super tight and it is amaz.

[B]

Repeat that. What bag is it called?

[A]

Ultra Hauler. Super Tote.

[B]

Ultra Holler. Super tote? Yeah, like holler like yell like H

[A]

A U L E R O. Holler like you're hauling all this shit that I have inside the bag, which holds a lot. And there's a lot of pockets for like easy storage. Primalization. Okay, wait, I have something stored here. This is your birthday gift.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

A birthday gift. I have more. Whoa.

[B]

This is our wedding ring.

[A]

Yeah, you always lose your wedding ring. So there's four. We'll see if they fit.

[B]

Oh, my God, Megan, you got me caught.

[A]

Rings.

[B]

Wow. It fits perfectly.

[A]

It's a size seven and a half.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

And now you have four of them. I like the navy. Looks good on you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so what was the shorts last week?

[A]

Oh, the RD short RD shorts. I'm wearing them right now.

[B]

Recommend Megan runs in them all the time.

[A]

And I also just wear them around because I just stash things and life in them. Yeah, I'll take here. I'll take the remaining three rings and put them in my shorts.

[B]

They have a built in belt and I recommend if you lose your ring,

[A]

you're gonna come grab them here. Yeah.

[B]

I recommend them higher than anything I've ever recommended in terms of clothing. Like, these shorts have been incredible as I returned to running.

[A]

Like, you have them in green. They look good on you.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, I'm going to show you something. That's a visual gag, which isn't great for a podcast for a sec.

[A]

I can't say it for the laugh was worth it.

[B]

I just used the tote bag, which has a. Why don't you call that color on the inside?

[A]

You're so funny. There have been few things in life that have made me love you more. Actually, one of the funnies, we went to the Carousel of Happiness this weekend, and you took a picture of the zebra, which was one of the animals to ride, and it had the thickest ass of all time. The fact that you're looking at that zebra's ass that way, I was like, david, I love you more.

[B]

Okay. I was riding the cow with Leo. The bull with Leo. And in front of us on the carousel was a zebra. And whoever designed the zebra was really into zebras.

[A]

Oh my God. This thing is like. It's got booty.

[B]

It got booty and it got.

[A]

It's got glutes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it looked. It was like a PT's dream. And I took a picture of it, obviously. And Megan was hanging. We were hanging out with Megan's friends who are very, very like amazing, respectable people. And I just come back and I had highlighted the booty so it like jumped out in the photo. Photo.

[A]

And I'm just like, yo, yo, look at this. I love it because, like, I. I just like, I trust you so much, like, as a coach, a husband, and like, you had like, never objectify women, like, ever even remotely close to it. But this zebra. Oh, look at this ass.

[B]

Yeah. It's actually very funny. If you look at any pictures of me with like a female athlete I

[A]

coach, you're like, your hand is just like hovering above them. It's like a hug. Actually, that zebra, you're to going. Everyone going up there.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there was, you know, two fistfuls.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Go to john.comswaps now. Listener corner. We have two beautiful ones here. Do you think I should read this longer one? Oh, actually, just one. This is an incredibly meaningful one from a listener. First off, I want to let you know that this quote tough guy is bawling his eyes out. Haha. That'll come full circle. I've had a hor. Horrible relationship with my eating in high school. I was smaller my freshman year and larger my Junior year, year. I've always struggled with being overweight and it was constantly a struggle with running. I've tried intermittent fasting and low carb diets. This may have been influenced by what seemed logical to me. With a father who had type 2 diabetes, I would accidentally break my fast and binge eat and subsequently punish myself with greater restrictive approaches. It is such a vicious cycle that many of us share. However, since starting high carb fueling, my entire relationship with food has been good in a way that I have never experienced. Instead of the previous, quote, disciplined approach that I used to take, take. I fuel nearly all of my runs throughout the day. I can now trust my appetite and eat what it's telling me to eat. Sometimes I crave the carbs, sometimes I crave a burger. I'll eat those. And I don't overeat anymore. I think we often hear about disordered eating on the other side of the spectrum. But high carb fueling has allowed me to stop binge eating. There's something hyper masculine about being able to eat large quantities, especially steaks. I would eat until I was falling asleep because I didn't feel my runs and was so depleted that it felt necessary. Not only has my relationship with food dramatically improved, improved, but I've also increased my mileage by double in 2026 alone. I sat on my doorstep this morning in tears thinking about my mileage limits being shattered and my relationship with food being fixed in a therapeutic way. I apologize about the long email. I could go on forever. Especially about Megan's fortitude in the face of her existential fear. You guys are amazing and unbelievably inspiring.

[A]

That is so beautiful. And thank you for sharing that too. Like, you know, hearing that story and I think also, like, giving light. We haven't talked a lot about binge eating on this podcast, but, like, you know, we know a lot of athletes that have experienced it and it is super hard and challenging. And finding this, this like, high carb way to ease the body of those cravings is amazing.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, so many people experience binge eating. It's just like a constant theme that we hear. But we don't talk about so much because we always want to be careful. I mean, we talk about anything openly, but we don't really have recommendations. Like, it's.

[A]

It's actually my recommendation is to eat enough, honestly.

[B]

Well, and talk to therapists.

[A]

Yeah, talk to a therapist. But I often think, like, you know, actually in college I had like, a brief period of disordered eating when I Went from being a field hockey player to, like a track athlete. And I was like, you know, my body, like, you know, it's like going from two fundamentally different team cultures.

[B]

Yeah, the culture shift.

[A]

The culture shift was, like, shocked me. Like, you know, field hockey, we went out and partied all the time. Like, it was just a different food environment. And then I would, like, walk onto the track and cross country team, and it was like, like throwing myself into a totally different atmosphere. And I think, like, you know, there was actually. I had brief moments of binge eating. Never, like, purging, but just like, I, like, I think because of the disordered eating that I had, I got so hungry that it was like my body needed to eat this jar, like, half a jar of peanut butter.

[B]

And I'm sure something happens in the

[A]

brain, and it was like. It was like for the first, like, it was like the only way that I could satisfy myself. And that was actually part of when I realized I was like, this is, like, not productive for my health. And this is a problem because, like, I'm getting myself to be so hungry to the point that I need a half a jar of peanut butter. Something is wrong here. And it was like, a brief period of time for me, but I think it was the binge part of it that, like, my body needed, like, it, like, fundamentally needed that. And oftentimes it's like binge eating is the body's response to a fundamental need.

[B]

I'm so proud of you for talking about that, that and talking about that. Peanut butter.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. I was like, peanut butter.

[B]

I wanted some tomorrow.

[A]

Yes, it was. Peanut butter and cereal were my go to. And it was like, I just, like, needed it. And sometimes it was at night too. Like, sometimes I would wake up at 3:00am just, like, so hungry that it had to be the cereal. And it lasted, like, maybe like three or four months. And then I was like, I cannot do this to my body anymore.

[B]

You got injured around that time too, right?

[A]

Like, yeah, I just, like, my body just, like, was not handling it well.

[B]

Yeah. This was relatively early in our relationship. And, you know, it was beautiful to go on that journey with you.

[A]

Were you like, that girl can house some peanut butter?

[B]

I was impressed. Yeah. But also I got it, you know, Like, I have my own shit with that that we've talked about before. And I understood, like, the struggles you were going for, not binging in particular, but, like, I could see how that would happen. And, you know, you're like, I, as always, like, I was just so. I Told you I was going to stick with you no matter what. And that was like, one of the things. I'm like, it's. She's on her journey and I need to support however I can.

[A]

Well, it's actually, I'm just thinking right now, like, how uncomfortable that feeling is post binging. Like, and I never, like, I never exercised because of that. I never, like, purged or never did it, which is a great thing about having a fear of vomiting. I was like, why in the world would I do that?

[B]

Megan was one of those people that.

[A]

Yeah, I was like, I never loved vomiting. So I was like, that sounds terrible, but, like, it is not a fun feeling after doing that. And I have so much empathy for anyone that has gone through that because, like, you're sitting for a few hours and just like a really uncomfortable, like, gi. Bloated feeling and it's not fun.

[B]

Well, and the big theme of every listener quarter almost, but especially ones like, like, this is whatever you're going through out there, just know that everybody is with you.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And people are carrying so much stuff.

[B]

So much stuff about everything. Whatever that thing is. I mean, there are people listening to this podcast who have foot fetishes who, like, feel ashamed. It's like, no, own that shit. That's awesome. Like, if. If what?

[A]

Own that shit and give US$40 a month.

[B]

I mean, not us to someone else.

[A]

I'm kidding. Yeah, yeah, we.

[B]

We don't have that option on Patreon. Maybe we could. We could branch out, though, if we need to.

[A]

Patreon. We use Patreon in an interesting way. I'm sure the Patreon on, like, the business itself would be like, wow, this is a new use.

[B]

I think they probably have it against terms of service.

[A]

I was actually just gonna say that. I'm guessing.

[B]

Yeah, not sure exactly. Maybe I can contact them.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it probably depends on what body part.

[B]

True.

[A]

Yeah. Feet are probably okay.

[B]

You think so? Yeah, Yeah, I guess. Like, anything could be pornographic if someone's into it, right? Like, you could just like, would they dance? Elbow pictures.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Like, I think, like, it's probably only, like, what would be considered textbook pornographic images.

[B]

Look at what percentage of people have elbow both fetishes. Is this the thing?

[A]

What's your guess?

[B]

Point? I. I don't think I might not even be a thing. It might not even be a thing. And it's just interesting to think about. But whatever your thing is, whatever, you know, you're like, oh, I'm different than other people. Just know that it's a part of what makes us beautiful. Humans.

[A]

2 to 4%.

[B]

Wait, what?

[A]

That's right there. I mean, who knows if that's ABC News? Who knows?

[B]

No, an estimated 2 to 4% of males have a fetish arousal pattern.

[A]

Oh, you're right.

[B]

Not. Not Elvis specifically. It's uncommon. Uncommon.

[A]

Uncommon.

[B]

But the answer would be.

[A]

I gotta find it. Like we gotta do. We gotta dive deep.

[B]

I made it up. It's not a thing. I've never heard of it.

[A]

I mean, I'm sure it could be a thing.

[B]

It could be anything. Could be. And whatever your thing is liberate yourself right now as much as you can to just be like, it's okay, you know? We get one shot at life. So much of it is complicated beyond belief. It probably stems not just a child, childhood but to so much shit that just is chemical in our brains as it unfolds. And I don't know, just talking about it and letting yourself know it's okay is the path to, like, acceptance. And I think the whole journey of life is getting a little bit closer to acceptance. And that also gets back to the competitiveness discussion earlier. It's like, what makes you a more accepting person of yourself and others? That's probably the right answer with most of these things.

[A]

What makes you just a little bit fierce? Chandler? I mean, I'm telling you, that is going to be some good stuff. Channel it, okay? Report back. We'll see who's right.

[B]

Dude, I hear dolphins are pretty darn intense creatures in real life. Megan, I'm one.

[A]

I'm one with the dolphins.

[B]

You're part dolphins.

[A]

What I'm saying, better than part Michael Jordan.

[B]

Oh, God, you know what I am?

[A]

What part?

[B]

That zebra thing.

[A]

Oh, yeah, look at that.

[B]

Should have said you. But, like, I kind of like it more. We love you all.