317. HISTORY at Western States 100! A Full Breakdown. Plus High Carb Study and Questions!

Summary

Some Work, All Play – Episode 317:

HISTORY at Western States 100! A Full Breakdown. Plus High Carb Study & Questions!

Release Date: June 30, 2026
Hosts: David Roche & Megan Roche, M.D.

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Episode Overview

In this energetic, insightful episode, David and Megan deliver an epic breakdown of the historic 2026 Western States 100, analyzing record-breaking performances, courageous DNFs, and the evolving landscape of ultrarunning. With their trademark blend of science and sincerity, they also unpack new research on high-carbohydrate fueling, discuss the increasing professionalization and “brand wars” in the sport, and tackle listener questions on training, anxiety, and racing through adversity.

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Major Topics and Timed Highlights

1. Embodying Authenticity through Small Acts (00:00–03:36)

• Megan’s new nose stud becomes a metaphor for authenticity. Sparks a lively intro on seizing the present moment—setting the tone for Western States analysis.
• Memorable Quote:
  David: “Why are we waiting for anything? Maybe the perfect prelude to Western States here.” (01:10)
• The bit also foreshadows the Western theme: taking big swings, living authentically.

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2. Western States 100: Historic Performances and Courageous Efforts (07:59–48:47)

Key Results & Predictions (08:14–11:29)

• David’s Predictions: Spot-on forecasts for course records and winning times, both men’s and women’s.

• Winners:

  • Men — Vincent Bouillard, 13:40s (first men under 14 hours, with two others joining him)
  • Women — Jen Lichter, 15:28 (breaks Courtney Dauwalter’s record by one minute)

• Fun Origin Story: David recounts losing to Bouillard at a small half marathon in 2020, marveling at his talent.

• Megan: “To go for a course record like this, you have to go for it from the very start. And that takes balls or ovaries or gonads or something... it takes a lot of courage.” (11:29)

The Risk and Reality of Racing at the Front (12:05–20:00)

• Hot Take: Running at the sharp end is fundamentally different—ultrarunning at a historic level comes with unique suffering and risks.
• DNF rates among favorites discussed (Hans Troyer, Jim Walmsley, Hayden Hawks, etc.)
• Hans Troyer’s race and heartbreak: led for much of the race, dropped after severe vomiting (multiple times).
• David’s Post on Hans (13:55):

  “The athletes who transcend sports give us something to believe in... Bet on Hans. Not because he's going to win every race, but because he shows what might be possible if we have the courage to truly believe in tomorrow. Young and fit forever.”

The Women’s Record & Standout Stories (20:00–24:00)

• Jen Lichter: Flawless, steady performance. Ran almost all of Devil’s Thumb climb. Overcame childhood adversity, adoption, and recent food poisoning.
• Rumor Watch: Lichter changed into Nike Ultrafly 2s for the final mile (23:14).
• Showcasing Diversity: Two nonbinary athletes in the top 3 (Riley Brady, Ryan Montgomery) — significant for the community and sport culture.

The Role of Social Media & Criticism (24:16–32:44)

• Host reflection on live-chat toxicity, athlete vulnerability, and how social media amplifies both connection and criticism.
• David: “If you’re going to have even a 10% chance at history, do you go for that or do you take the 90% conservative shot?... Almost every single champion in life takes the 10% shot.” (17:39)

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3. Analysis & Hot Topics Post-Race

DNFs & “Death Before DNF” Mentality (27:55–32:44)

• Advocating for prioritizing health over ego or macho culture.
• Emphasize importance of supportive frameworks for athletes who must drop.

Brand Wars & Pro Sport Evolution (33:00–38:01)

• Major uptick in brand presence and sponsorships—HOKA and Nike (ACG) “duking it out” at aid stations.
• Metaphor: The professionalization of the sport as galaxies colliding—change is disruptive but also exciting.
• Quote:
  David: “Maybe Western States is almost like a shopping mall that's grown around a church—there’s this sacred part, and then the brands…”

Athlete Age & the Pull from Short-Distance Trail (39:37–41:10)

• Observation: Top 10 in all genders were over 30, despite increasing talent and contracts pulling in younger short-distance stars.
• The crossover from short distance to ultra due to bigger opportunities at the marquee events.

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4. Science Corner: Carbs, Guts, and the Limits of Fueling (44:53–64:33)

High Carb Intake Realities (44:53–47:34)

• New norm: 100+ grams of carbs/hr (Enervit example) among top finishers.
• Nausea remains a key physiological limiter—mastering “gut training” is essential, and sometimes it’s just bad luck.

Western States & Fueling—Impossible Decisions (62:18–64:33)

• Coaching wisdom: As GI issues arise, titrate carbs down to what’s tolerable, but keep trying. Zero carbs = race over.
• “Slurp method” advocated for getting carbs down past the palate when stomach turns against you.

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5. Wide World of Weird: Pit Toilet Adventures & Daring (65:11–68:39)

• Humorous, slightly gross story about a man getting stuck in a pit toilet to retrieve sunglasses.
• Re-examines previous debate: would you reach into a portapotty for a gel on a long run? Megan: “I probably would.” David: “Nothing scares me about poop anymore.” (67:58)

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6. News: Anti-Doping via Cycling Power Data (69:11–73:31)

• Cycling's governing body piloting "power passport" (trend monitoring of athlete’s wattage in training to flag doping risk).
• Hosts nervous about application—could falsely implicate clean riders, discourage legitimate breakthroughs, and risk mental health.

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7. Listener Q&A: Training, Anxiety, and Race Week Stress (74:15–88:29)

Maintaining Fitness with Reduced Mileage (74:15–77:04)

• Evidence: You can reduce mileage up to ~66% while retaining most aerobic power, provided you do short hill strides and periodic longer runs when your schedule allows (e.g., residency, life stress).

Racing and Health Anxiety (77:11–88:29)

• Pre-race stress about getting sick is widespread and legitimate.
• Advice: Maintain normal hygiene but don’t sacrifice life enjoyment for control. Anxiety is best addressed by talking it out, not by seeking a “perfect” race environment.
• Megan: “The tricky part about this is by indulging those thoughts, the anxiety can sometimes bleed over into racing.” (80:21)
• David recommends living in vulnerability, accepting imperfection, and confronting the existential “finish line” of every human and runner alike.

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8. Closing Reflections: Existential Wisdom from the Finish Line (88:29–end)

• Theme: Embracing the unknown, failing openly, and treating every race and risk as an opportunity for community and meaning.
• Revisiting powerful lyrics from The Struts:

  "I want to feel pride and shame. I don’t want to take my time, don’t want to waste one line. I want to live better days, never look back and say…could have been me." (49:24)

• David: “No point in an untold story. Might as well—we get one shot at life, you know?”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On “Death Before DNF”
  “It’s bad for your team, terrible for your health, and a terrible model for younger people... that health matters and death before DNF, we are bordering where it could literally be death.” – David (28:00)
• On Athlete Criticism
  “It’d be like going into someone’s hospital room and saying, ‘Doctors! Here’s how we should treat!’” – David (32:33)
• On Ultra-Age Sweet Spot
  “Top 10 finishers... all over 30, some barely. Sweet spot still seems to be 30–40. That’ll be challenged, but for now, that’s the pattern.” – Megan (39:55)
• On Community & Connection
  “Sports are about carbs... but it’s also about those conversations.” – Megan (53:52)
• On Vulnerability & Risk
  “If you’re gonna have even a 10% chance at history, do you go for that? Or take the 90% conservative shot? ...Almost every champion in life takes the 10% shot.” – David (17:39)
• On Parenting, Sickness, and Racing
  “When you have kids, you’re dealing with [germs] all the time. And being comfortable in that space of uncertainty is key.” – David (82:25)

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Tone & Energy

• Passionate, geeky, and affectionate. Heavy on science, personal reflection, and community pride.
• Candid, sometimes irreverent, mixing humor and heart.
• Moments of existential depth balanced by playful asides, scientific exploration, and deep love for the ultrarunning world.

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Useful Timestamps

• 00:00–03:36: Playful opening; authentic living metaphor
• 08:13–24:00: Western States 100 full result breakdown; course records, key battles
• 13:55: Hans Troyer DNF, courage, and belief
• 24:16–26:02: LGBTQ/nonbinary athlete representation; ugly side of livestream chats/fan culture
• 27:55–32:44: Debunking “death before DNF”
• 33:00–38:01: Brand wars, money, and the commercialization “galaxies colliding”
• 44:53–47:34: Carb fueling science and gut management
• 74:15–77:04: Training adaptation with mileage drops
• 77:11–88:29: Health anxiety & pre-race stress
• 49:24: The Struts “Could Have Been Me” – ethos of the show

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Final Thoughts

Whether you missed the race or want an inside look at the elite and deeply human side of ultrarunning, this episode is a whirlwind ride. It traverses the highs of world-class performances, the emotion of DNFs, the changing landscape of the sport, and fresh research for everyday runners—all with love, humility, and the reminder: authenticity, courage, and community are the true finish lines.

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For more: Check out the show notes for sponsor links, Megan & David’s training resources, and the podcast’s thriving Patreon community.

Transcript

[Megan]

Woohoo.

[David]

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

[Megan]

Happy Tuesday.

[David]

It's Tuesday and Whoa. Yes.

[Megan]

Whoa.

[David]

Special intro today.

[Megan]

Whoa. You knew I was gonna do something sappy about Western states, and you're like,

[David]

I need to do something sexy about Megan, which is. She's staring at me across the mic with a nose ring in.

[Megan]

It's not a ring. It's a little stud. Stud?

[David]

Oh, no. It's about 4 inches long. It hangs down to the floor. No, but, Megan, you look so good. You had it for Western states. You got it last Tuesday on date night. And this has been your whole personality forever. I can't believe it took until 36 to get this.

[Megan]

I have wanted it for the longest time. I actually got it at 35. Okay. It's true that I turned 36 at Western States, but I just was like, you know, it's been a long time coming. And then when I had my heart stuff and was in the hospital, I was just like, eff it, we're going to shimmer. We're going to do this thing. And we got to date night, and I almost failed. I had, like, the most pediatric nose, and I held it up and I was like, that looks really big.

[David]

It does look big. So f it, we shimmer. You said you thought about this in the hospital.

[Megan]

I. I did. You know, it's just like, I've wanted this for a long time and I've never done it. And I feel like I had one of those moments of just like, why am I waiting for anything? It's like, let's just do it. Let's do the thing.

[David]

Why are we waiting for anything? Maybe the perfect prelude to Western states here. And my favorite thing is, after you got this done, I said, it seems like you've had this nose stud forever. And then the first person we saw after that, Jen, said, I thought you had always had this in your nose.

[Megan]

I've actually gotten that, like, five different times. Yeah, in.

[David]

It just totally embodies your soul. And it's really interesting that it took going into the hospital, you know, really contemplating your athletic mortality and your overall mortality to make this small step into embodying something that everyone else clearly already saw in you. And, you know, nose ring is just one thing, but it points out how little actions to bring our true personalities to light can mean so much. So even though the nose ring is kind of a joke intro, I have been looking at you every few minutes for the last week and saying, damn, girl. Also Also, I've an honest reflection is every time someone sees you now, I'm kind of thinking they. They're gonna think I'm good in bed to land a girl that's that sexy.

[Megan]

Well, I love. It's so funny. We've had so many different conversations, like western states. So many conversations. And I feel like you brought this up as, like a point of pride in, like half the conversations. I don't love attention. I'm like, don't look at me. But actually, the nose thing is a good thing. It's like, you gotta own that a little bit.

[David]

Yeah. Every single time I'm meeting someone at Western States, I'm like, look at Megan. New nose ring. Everybody went crazy for it.

[Megan]

Well, I love that you keep saying nose ring because it makes me sound more badass. I feel like on the gradations of noses, like, nose ring is like number one badass, and stud is maybe like number two badass.

[David]

Well, biggest question, can you put a breatheright nose strip over it?

[Megan]

Well, I was like, maybe I should just anchor it. Actually, you know, soon I can take out the nose ring and I should have gotten one on the other side, and then I can have two anchors for the breathe right nose strip. Yeah.

[David]

The advanced nose strips have two magnets that you put on either side of your nose. All you would have to do is magnetize them, and we just got to glitter it up. Oh, my goodness. I think we broke the system. You could have a permanent nose strip is what we're saying.

[Megan]

Well, we were talking about this in the piercing place. I feel like they haven't seen a lot of people like us come in and just be like, can we put a breathe right strip on this thing? And they're like, huh.

[David]

I believe, I believe. And I think we're actually probing the limits of exercise physiology. To have permanent nose strips on this is going to change the whole game.

[Megan]

Okay. But you know what's wild is so as soon as I got it, it's almost like my vision is not acclimated to having glitter there. I can see this, like, and it's kind of faded now. Like, I feel like I've adapted to it, but in my periphery, there's a little bit of shimmer. And for the first, like, couple days, I was like, huh, I can see a little shimmer. And now I've adapted to it well.

[David]

Shimmer affirmation every single time you look forward. Okay, we have the best episode for you today. We're going to start by breaking down history at Western States we just got back pretty late last night, so we're coming in hot. Then a new carb study showing benefits at higher levels. One of those dose response studies. Always good to stay on top of some pit toilet news.

[Megan]

Oh, this is a good one. Someone went hard.

[David]

They absolutely did. Someone got very ambitious, went for the course record in retrieving sunglasses.

[Megan]

I feel like this proves our point, though. We had the whole conversation on the podcast of would you go deep into a toilet to pull out a gel? But we were talking about a flush toilet. We were not talking about a pit toilet.

[David]

Yeah, well, we're gonna have to take the hypothetical a step forward further because I have a theory that you might go to depth, but we'll get there when we get there. Then power profiling and cycling being used to catch dopers. That is a really interesting story. A podcast listener. Then a cross training science review. That is very exciting if you can't do super high mileage. Uh, and then questions on volume, anxiety, pre race fueling, and lots more curious

[Megan]

if we get to questions because we have so many western states. Thoughts.

[David]

So many thoughts.

[Megan]

It was like such a roller coaster of emotions and feelings. And I'm coming away from it. Like, how grateful am I that, like, you know, through sports we have the power to feel so many different things. But some of those feelings, man, are tough.

[David]

Yeah. I went from my happiest moment ever, like in the top 10. And I'm counting, like, kids being born

[Megan]

in marriage and nose ring.

[David]

Well, I was going to say to my saddest moment ever, perhaps as a coach, to perhaps my most turned on moment when I got to see you again. Okay, before we get there, a quick promo for the feed. Go to the feed.comSwapS P. If you go there, you get 40% off. And we're coming up on the Tour de France. They're going to have insane deals every day. So you need to check, I mean, we're talking 30 to 50% off all your favorite products. And if you go to the feed.com swap, you're going to get extra deals on top of that. It is the best stuff possible.

[Megan]

Okay, we need to load up some enervit gels. Yes, I saw Francesco Pippi throw some of those back. And actually Enervet just released his fueling data, which we'll go into in a second. And he took a lot of enervet gels.

[David]

How many carbs per hour was he at?

[Megan]

He was around 106 grams of carbs at Western states. That's a lot Especially doing enervet too, which is a two to one ratio. And I personally love enervet. And so I've always been a little bit skeptical to add them in because I'm more of a 1 to 0.8 ratio girl at, like, higher carb intake. But to see him do that, I was like, wait a second. It might be worth it for the mango.

[David]

And for some reason, Western states is especially hard for fueling. We'll get into that. So the Enervit mango gel is the best tasting gel that's ever been created. Like, you can get it, and every single time you have it, it will be the ultimate light of your life. Enervit's caffeine gel is so, so good. You can get these with extreme confidence that they're not just used by Francesco Poupi. They're also used by Tade Pugacha and us to a much lesser extent. Next up, Currenzy. We have talked about the studies on this all the time. Basically, after seven days of taking currency, fat oxidation rates go up and heat goes down. Response gets better. So as we're in summer, currency is a place to go. So many athletes on the western states start line are taking currency and probably not talking about it paying out of their own pockets. This stuff is great.

[Megan]

You know, I was a skeptic on this stuff. There is surprisingly a whole body, like many, many bodies of literature actually are

[David]

literally like 25 studies.

[Megan]

And I was like, oh, it's just sponsored by currency. And no, it's not. There's a lot of research on this stuff. And for me, actually, like, if I take it pre run, it has some interesting dynamics on lowering my heart rate during the run. And it's been kind of a fascinating data point to see.

[David]

And then last, the roll recovery R8. This is a roller that clamps down onto your quad. And we didn't take ours to western states because it does look like it might be used for nefarious purposes on a plane.

[Megan]

I was gonna say, I kind of missed the TSA conversations. We really should have brought it just for those.

[David]

Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure exactly what it looks like, but it must scare some people because it gets flagged like, all to hell.

[Megan]

Also, it kind of seems like an old school, like, recovery device, but you're pretty obsessed with it.

[David]

I'm obsessed with it. Every cyclist in the Tour de France between stages is doing massage. If you can't see a massage therapist every day, this is closest you can get. It is so much better. Than foam rolling to get active response because you don't have to lie on the floor for, you know, 15 minutes and do all these contortions that honestly are upper body workouts. You just get to clamp it on, do the work. The roll recovery R8 is so, so good, and I'm never going to travel without it again.

[Megan]

You've also been turning the house upside down looking for roll recovery R3, which is a little orange guy that you use for your foot. Have you found it yet?

[David]

I haven't. I ordered another one from the feed. Actually. It's coming tomorrow.

[Megan]

Yeah. Somehow that went missing.

[David]

Yeah. So I'm trying a lot of things with roll recovery. So go to the feed.com/s w a P Now it's time for Western States. And let's just start with the big story. Records went down and our predictions on times ended up being almost exactly right.

[Megan]

Okay, you crushed it.

[David]

Thank you. I mean, I think it was pretty obvious that it was going this direction. Vincent Bulliard won for men in what was his time? I was kind of too sad at that moment to look at his exact time. It was 1340 something.

[Megan]

13 something. Very fast.

[David]

Yeah, it was incredibly, incredibly fast. Right around what we predicted. And Jen Lichter won for woman women in 1528, which was one minute ahead of Courtney De Walter's course record. Both right around what we predicted. And so let's just start on those two races to begin with. First, whenever we talk about our boy Vincent, I want to have a reminder that he's so kind. I got to run with him a lot at Western States last year when he DNF'd. Very relevant to some of the other athlete stories we're going to talk about. And we got to talk just about little things in the race, as you do. And the whole time, he was being so kind and supportive of me. And even during Western states itself this year, he saw me and he gave me the biggest, like, most meaningful little high five and just of recognition. And this is barely knowing each other. We met once in 2019, actually.

[Megan]

You met once in 2019 when he kicked your ass.

[David]

Okay.

[Megan]

He really kicked your ass at a local half marathon. We were just going to, like, Mont. It was Montana Del Oro. Montana Del Oro. And we were there just showing up to a random race. It was actually the very start of COVID We wound up driving to Colorado

[David]

2020, March 2020 after it.

[Megan]

And all of a sudden, like, I'm finishing the race and I realize you got beat at this random local race. And I was like, what the hell?

[David]

Okay, this whole story needs to be told. Vincent is coming back here. So March 2020, Covid was starting to take off, but everybody was still really skeptical. This was before the Utah Jazz thing happened where they canceled the game mid game. And Megan's like, david, we need to get. Or we need to get out of Stanford because, you know we're going to be exiled here. It's going to. Everything's going to be canceled.

[Megan]

Actually, I was like, I just want to go to the mountains. And I have a feeling they're going to cancel school here, so just drive to the mountains. We should be prepared for that, because I feel like that's what's gonna happen.

[David]

So we did a race on the way. Uh, I don't know if I'd ever lost a local race in California. And I show up and there's this guy who I talked to him. He's like, I'm a HOKA shoe designer. I'm like, cool. He's like, I don't really train. I'm like, cool, I got you. And so I'm running on his wheel for like the first eight miles and we hit a little steep climb to end the climbing of the race. And he bounds away in a way that looked exactly like Jim Walmsley bounding away from me at don't fence me in 30k in 2016. He goes on to win. I talked to him after the race. He really wasn't training almost at all. And I'm like, huh, that's cool. I wonder if I'll ever hear about him again. Never did until he went on and won utmb. And I'm like, I think I recognize that name. And then he goes out here to Western states and runs smart but aggressively. I mean, he was in that front group the whole time and just obliterates what was possible. And led the two other runners under 14 hours as well. The mythical 14 hour barrier that people always wondered if it would ever be broken. Um, so Vincent Francesco Poupi, who is running with Hans Troyer, who we're gonna talk about in a minute. Um, and then Ryan Montgomery, who had the breakout race of the entire day. And Ryan Bina. Ryan Montgomery is a non binary athlete who went across the line with an LGBTQ flag. And it was just such a cool reflection on long term growth because they've been putting in the work for so, so long.

[Megan]

It was just so cool to see that trio of performances and all under 14 hours.

[David]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And I think he made that prediction. You're like, you know, we're not gonna see. We're gonna. Not just in the first place athlete, but the second and third as well, which is so wild. And to see the men do that. And I think the hard part about that is to go for a course record like this, you have to go for it from the very start. And that takes balls or ovaries or gonads or something. Something. But it takes a lot of courage to do that. And I think, like, you know, it's easy sometimes to, like, see them finish and be like, that takes courage. But to do that from mile one of a race when you know it's going to be hot and hard, it's like, that's some of the hardest stuff to do.

[David]

Western states is super interesting because it reaches a level of person and like sports watcher or commentator that doesn't have exposure to what this actually entails.

[Megan]

Well, actually, I think the tricky part is, is a lot of people do have exposure of finishing these races, of running 100 miles and understanding what that feels like. But I would say, and this might be a controversial take, I would say that what it feels like to be Jim Walmsley is actually very different than what it feels like to run a hundred miles. And sometimes I feel like that's like, that's hard to conceptualize when you've done it before.

[David]

That's a hot take, Megan.

[Megan]

That's a very hot take.

[David]

You're trying to very gently go into that hot take.

[Megan]

I'm like, so we're going to massage this.

[David]

It's interesting. So last year I had my experience and got exposed to what I called at the time, the darker corners of the Internet. But I don't think it was necessarily. I think it's just people that have very strong opinions about things they don't understand. And, you know, once you do understand it, it really becomes apparent. And so that brings us to the Hans Troyer story. Hans went out there and was, you know, eight minutes ahead at one point, leading the race, was having the race of his life until nausea came on in a major way. And then he had uncontrollable vomiting after Forest Hill. But his legs felt amazing. He was able to jog around the track the next day. He's like, I've never felt so good. And you can imagine that disappointment. And I posted about Hans and in fact, it might be good to just read this post.

[Megan]

Yeah, read this post. Actually, it's a beautiful articulation of, you know, what it means and what it looks like to Go for it. Which takes so much courage by itself. But like, you know, we have the catchphrase bet on Hans and actually it's really cool. They had it on sweatshirts at Forest Hill on a lot of his crew members. And I feel like it's not this performance actually. And what Hans went out to do indicates that now is a better time than ever to bet on Hans. Like, you know, even post dnf, because seeing what he could do, seeing what he had the courage to do, it's like, yeah, that's going to be someone that's going to come back and win. Yeah.

[David]

Hans went out to run the best performance of all time. And the best performance of all time for Hans on the day with his fitness was a 50, 50 shot. And it was uncontrollable throwing up that took him out. Everybody that's done ultras understands that feeling. And once it happens in a severe, severe long term way, not much you can do. And we're going to get into like health implications of all this. But here's my post on Hans. The athletes who transcend sports give us something to believe in that goes beyond wins and losses. This weekend I got to see Hans Troyer show why he's already becoming a legend. At 26. He ran smart. If your goal is to win, that's how good he is. But he also ran fearlessly. Destiny rarely waits for others to make a move. The vomiting that took him out this time is part of the game. We've all been there, everything going perfectly, until suddenly it's not. I'm gutted for him. When you're pushing the limits of what any human has ever done, there's little margin for error. I told Hans before the race that I'd be more proud of him if it didn't work out than if it did. The reason is that the heroes of sports and life only get there from these moments. They only get there from these moments. Bet on Hans. Not because he's going to win every race, but because he shows what might be possible if we have the courage to truly believe in tomorrow. Young and fit forever.

[Megan]

I have goosebumps, man. Young and fit forever. And I think it's like, you know, to see Hans, I'm certain he's going to get a golden ticket and come back here. Oh, for sure. Yeah. To get, to get him back to western states, to bring the same courage and to bring a similar strategy back, it's like, what's going to happen?

[David]

And then because I wrote that, I got a taste of just The Internet. And it's really interesting because you reflect on history. Obviously, there were tons of DNFs this year. Vincent DNF last year, Jim DNF'd. This year, Jim also DNF'd in his second chance at Western States when he was in the lead, much like Hans did. Hans decided that he was gonna have to pull out as he was repassing Francesco pupi at mile 66 because he had like. I mean, we don't have to get into details.

[Megan]

It was not actually can. You should get into the story of Hans vomiting. So we had his first vomiting session

[David]

of like seven of them in a row. Seven when he was a minute ahead of. Yeah.

[Megan]

And then we heard this from his pacer, Kade Michael. And then he was like, I feel good now. We puke and rally. He came back, he passed. Francesco was feeling really good.

[David]

Until it starts again.

[Megan]

Until it starts again. And it's like to see Hans also go down swinging like that, it's like, that's wild.

[David]

So a few other things to read. One interesting thing before we get into some of that is the number of professional athletes who reached out to me and probably Hans too. Validating everything about Hans was striking. And it just shows that everyone who has ever been in this position gets it and they see that this is a prelude to history in the future. It's just obvious. So this is a message from Amanda Vestry was just so cool to watch. Regardless of the result, it teaches us to be unafraid of taking big shots and going for it. This is one of the best runners in the world and almost certainly is going to make an Olympics team before she's all said and done. And here's a message from just a podcast listener. Uh, you guys are the bee's knees. I'm 45. At 43, I quit smoking after well over 20 years. To help me quit, I began to run. I was ignorant and made plenty of mistakes. But long story short, I went from a sedentary pack a day smoker at 43 to a 50k finisher on less than two years. Part of what inspired me to do more than just a few miles a week was than with the occasional 5K was Hans Troyer. I came across his YouTube channel and knew I could be more. Um, Hans shows us that we know we can be more. And he ran like that. He lived like that. And the thing is, it was a 5050 shot, but every athlete on that start line had some range of probabilities. And we'll never know what they were. And the problem is a lot of these armchair quarterbacks think that whatever ended up, whatever the result was, was 100% chance. And that's just not the way it is. And if you're going to have even a 10% chance at history, do you go for that or do you take the 90% conservative shot? I don't know the answer to that question. But almost every single champion in Life takes the 10% shot because that's the only way to make that 10% chance shot into a 50 shot and then a 90% shot eventually. And, you know, it's interesting to see when these armchair losers essentially, and not to say you're a loser if you disagree, but the people that are.

[Megan]

Well, I think if you disagree in such a way that it's cutting down Hans and cutting down what he went for and his courage in the process, it's like that's a different. Like, I think it's okay to have to disagree and to have different opinions. I have different reflections. But to actively cut them down, it's like, yeah.

[David]

And by loser, I just mean a lot of people go at 50% of their potential and then make it seem like they're crushing it on social media. And one thing I promise about Hans is that he is going to achieve truly 100% of his potential, like Jim has, like Killian has, like Vincent has. And the people in history that have done that are always taking the long range shots, which also means they're failing in ways that are quite vulnerable and would be so much easier not to be that person. But the interesting part is you're never in the position in the first place unless you take those shots.

[Megan]

And I think the challenge of ultras these days too is that those shots look different. So we were standing at Robinson Flat, which is mile 32 of the race, seeing the top five men come through and come through blazing fast. And as you're looking at these men, they are already on the edge at 32 miles of a 100 mile race. And to see that to play out, it's like, you know, there's going to be struggle within that top five. And indeed there was. You know, there's Jim Killian, who is just outside of the top five at that point. DNF'd. Hayden, who is behind them, DNF'd and Jones. DNF'd. We can get into the DNFs in a second, but it's like to see the men go for it, you realize that to get a podium at Western States it's different than it ever has been, is that you have to do things that are courageous from the start, and that's so tough.

[David]

There's a difference between what athletes are having to do nowadays, and it's exciting. It's also scary and also changes the calculus as we talk about death before DNF or any idea like that. It's just a different ballgame, you know, and understanding that context is important. So before we get to the rest of the stories, let's talk about Jen Lichter, who set the course record for women and just absolutely crushed it. And it's so interesting because I think a lot of people knew Jen was the favorite and always thought she was, and she just went out and executed the perfect race. Like, it wasn't with, like, that dramatic from the outside. It was basically the best athlete maybe ever to do this. Coming in and executing first try and

[Megan]

being steady and consistent all day. So we actually watched. So ACG had a tent up at Forest where you could watch the live feed. It was really fun. There was a bunch of fuzzy blankets. It was just this, like, whole environment. We're gonna get into the brands in a second. It was a little wild. Like, we were in this beautiful tent hanging out as some locals at the saloon, literally like, 10ft away were just hanging out, smoking cigarettes, being like, what is going on here? It was a very weird, like, interplay, I feel like. But we were sitting there watching her run up the Devil's Fun climb, and she ran almost the entirety of the Devil's Thumb climb, which is steep, and she just executed consistent performance across the day. And to see her do that, like, you know, she's so talented at mountains and so talented at short distance trail. And to see her put that into practice in her first 100 is like, hot damn.

[David]

She worked her ass off, too. Um, on the Devil's Thumb climb, I heard Dylan Bowman say when she took, like, three walking steps, oh, thank God she is human. Um, but, you know, she earned this with just so much grit and courage and years of development, if you've been following. And her coach, John Fitzgerald, right?

[Megan]

I love John. Awesome guy.

[David]

Love John. I got to hang out with him at the river at mile 78. And just wonderful guy. And he coached, I think, four athletes in the top 10. Five, maybe. Just remarkable. Um, and so Jen Lichter has the best story, too. She was adopted at age 9, and, you know, adopted from, I believe, Venezuela.

[Megan]

Colombia, I think.

[David]

Colombia.

[Megan]

Sorry. Yeah. I'm like, dude, yeah.

[David]

But after a family was, you Know, torn apart by drug cartels, and, you know, her journey passed is full of adversity. I think she dealt with eating disorder when she was young. And, you know, so much water under the bridge between everything she went through in glory. And it is so cool to see these glorious moments happen to people that have earned it by going through the dark forests.

[Megan]

She also had food poisoning the Monday before the race.

[David]

Oh, my goodness.

[Megan]

Right? Isn't that nuts?

[David]

Well, that kind of proves my point. If you get food poisoning every time, just remember it is practice for ultras.

[Megan]

Yeah, exactly. I was like, she is prepared. Yeah.

[David]

Because the.

[Megan]

It's like doing your final strides before the race, like, this is the final nausea. I experience this. I can exist through this.

[David]

Exactly. So I got food poisoning or a stomach bug eight days before Leadville 2024. And once I got that nausea, I never experienced it before. Right. Much like Hans had never had it before. Because you don't really get an opportunity to go through this type of nausea outside of stomach bugs or food poisoning and 100 milers. And I was like, I'm fine with this. I can hold this in. I'm not gonna go the other step. So maybe what we need to do next year is just give Hans some bad cheese or something.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

I mean, the hard part for him is he had never had GI issues ever before before. So it was his first experience. And it's probably going to be something that he grows from emotionally and understands maybe a little bit more how to, like, what might have caused it. Because everyone's different. Everyone that's listening who has done ultras gets that feeling, though, where sometimes it's just, you're screwed over.

[Megan]

Oh, sometimes it's just, like, the hardest thing. I also heard a pure rumor that she changed her shoes in the final mile to be wearing the Nike Ultrafly Twos across the finish line, which is, you know, Nike's primary trail shoe instead of the prototype she was wearing. And I was like, God damn. Nike would have to pay me, like, $2,000 to take a minute to change my sho when the course record is on the line.

[David]

Yeah. So she got the course record by a minute. And this comes from the Dirt Division Instagram page. So no idea if it's.

[Megan]

You're like, this is a rumor. This is their source. This is our citation.

[David]

I also want to put it on them if it's good reporting. Right. So she was wearing a Nike prototype all day and then switched shoes in the last mile, which gets to the brand conversations, because that probably comes with A little bit of a bonus.

[Megan]

I'm assuming they should pay her a lot.

[David]

Well, yeah, now she's.

[Megan]

Honestly, they should just pay her a lot for wearing ultra flies for a mile.

[David]

And you see why athletes take risks, right? Like, like this is just a huge payday too. Not just with the bonus that comes from the race, which is massive.

[Megan]

And changing your shoes, which should be massive.

[David]

Yeah. But the subsequent contract from this, now we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars and probably increasing over time. I wouldn't be surprised if we see athletes making a million dollars a year in ultras pretty consistently relatively soon, based on the brand proliferation we're seeing. Okay then, after Jen Lichter, Riley Brady in second, maybe the most exciting story of the day for me. Riley's just an incredible human. Another non binary athlete, which is amazing.

[Megan]

Two non binary athletes in the top three is remarkable. And I think it's remarkable to me because, you know, you sit there and you watch the live feed and for whatever godforsaken reason I had the chat up on the live feed.

[David]

Oh no.

[Megan]

And you start to see comments about non binary athletes and you're just like, what the fuck, guys? Like, you know. But those comments are a very, very small microcosm of what those athletes go through on a daily basis. And to rise above and beyond that, especially in the present, like climate and society, it's like, that's like, it's so remarkable to have two in the top three understanding that context and understanding what they've been through as just like the very smallest microcosm from the live feed.

[David]

They need to get rid of chat.

[Megan]

Actually, I had that reflection too because it's like, you know, in what other sporting environment do we have a live chat going on? And it's a lot like, you know, if you think about athletes, families watching that and seeing those things written up on there about athletes they love, it's like, that's pretty challenging.

[David]

Yeah. Last year, I distinctly remember a week after my race, you got a call from your dad.

[Megan]

And my dad is like pretty far away from ultra running just in terms of like how he views it, how he consumes it. I think western states was the first time he tuned in.

[David]

But he's a sports fan, right? And you took the call out at the playground. I remember that. And I'm like, this isn't good. Megan's not taking this call around me.

[Megan]

She's out there swinging on a call with her dad. What's going on?

[David]

I'm like, oh no. And you came back in And I don't want to summarize it it for you but what it was it he

[Megan]

was just, I mean it was a loving concern. He's like, you know, I'm concerned for you guys. He's like there's so much commentary in, you know, the live chat and yes, there's commentary about every athlete but he's like, you have to feel that so viscerally how are you guys? Yeah. And you think about every athlete's family members watching that and literally, I mean I'm sure Hans got a lot of it out there. Like any athlete that is out there putting themselves, you know, pushing themselves to the limit is going to get that and I think we should.

[David]

I'm guessing we got more of it.

[Megan]

Oh yeah, we definitely got.

[David]

I bet we even got more of it on this year's live chat even though we're not in the race. I don't know why that is. I mean probably for the same reasons that anything happens, you know, you just put yourself out there. But Riley Brady such has built up so long term has bet on themselves over and over again. Also an incredible signing by Nike. Give it up for Nike for Jen and Riley. 1 2. And you know this is Riley fulfilling their destiny as one of the best athletes ever to do it. So 15:42 for Riley, one of the maybe third fastest time ever now something like that. Absolutely remarkable. Marianne Hogan who has dominated this race in the past, an hour faster than ever for third place. Such a quick year and I mean it gets back to the cool temps where it was cool at Forest hill at mile 62 it was very comfortable there, you know, nice hot sun. Interestingly though, when I went to the river at mile 78 it was pretty darn hot. I was roasting a little bit and Adam Peterman's aunt, so the Peter God did an incredible race, went so fast and his family was there and his aunt came up to me not knowing any idea that I knew Adam at all and said hun or something like that, I need to save you. Because I was. My back was burning so much and she put sunscreen on me.

[Megan]

Oh my gosh, she slathered me out. How'd she know that you're never covered in sunscreen?

[David]

Yeah, the Peter God family just divine all around. And so you know, the fast years went across the board but it also required athletes to really push to go that fast at all.

[Megan]

And how do you think that translates to health? Because I feel like every year we stand at the Western states finish line and you start to see athletes like being pushed away in wheelchairs, you start to see all kinds of vomiting incidents. And I feel like now it's almost like carbs in the science, the shoe tech are allowing us to push harder than we ever have before. But in a course like Western states, it's like there's so much carnage that comes with that. What do you think are like the long term health implications of everyone going for it?

[David]

At this level, it seems fine when it's not hot. I think when things get hot, it gets a lot more dangerous. But from what I've understood, everybody's coming away really strong, you know. And so let's get to the five points that we have, which kind of segues from this question. The first ultras are not death before dnf. That idea has proliferated so much and it's like, yes, it is very meaningful to finish one of these races. But if you are pushing your body right at the edge of what humans have ever done, it actually does get extremely dangerous. And the health concerns are like. The analogy I considered was if you're a running back in the NFL and you know you have a torn ACL asking for the next ball, it's like, yes, that might be tough. Yes, there might be people that celebrate you on the Internet, but that's one, bad for your team, two, terrible for your health, and three, a terrible model for younger people that health matters and death before dnf like it is, we are bordering where it could literally be death. And so maybe, just maybe we celebrate these slightly more than we used to. Because I think that that's a relic of really negative, also kind of patriarchal ideas of society, like, or maybe toxic masculinity ideas of society that we should drop leave in the last generation.

[Megan]

Well, we also don't have many models for this across other endurance sports, like nowhere on the Internet. Like, you know, this happens all of the time within the cycling, like pro tour. You think about athletes that are dropping from injuries, like sometimes dropping from craftedness. You have athletes that have like their arms barely hanging on and things like that. And so it's a little easier to visualize. But never are we scrutinizing an athlete. And maybe it's because their teams are part of like making the decision. But a lot of these athletes that are dropping at western states, it's a multifaceted decision. It's not like they're just standing there being like, I'm dropping out now. It's like, you know, they're working with their coach, they're working with their rg, they're working with, you know, a lot of different people, the brand sponsors to make this decision. And I feel like nowhere else in endurance sports are we scrutinizing athletes for dropping out.

[David]

Yeah, it's very strange and I think it is a relic of crappy culture that used to exist and we can just leave that aside. And I have interesting personal reflections on this too. Right. Because I heard this so much from people last year, got so many emails, not just mean Internet comments, but like emails from people that meant well, but don't get it and said to me, like, you should have just walked to the finish or whatever. When I thought I was going to die, I mean, I literally thought I was going to die. And yes, I wasn't going to die, probably, but I thought I was and all of these messages and I took that lesson to mean, okay, that's what I should do. And then at javelina I went and I got a golden ticket and I pushed to the point that I tore my plantar off my foot and, you know, got a hernia and I'm still dealing with aftermath. It's like, if I knew I could prevent that, I should have, I should not have pushed through it for its own sake. And, you know, it bothers me to see it come up for athletes like Killian Jim, Dan Jones, Hayden Hawks, Hans, Martina Marczyk, Abby hall, who won last year, Ingvald Caspersen.

[Megan]

Actually, Ingvald Caspersen is listed as a DNF at Roby Point, which is mile 98. 9. I think it was actually a little bit before Roby Point because I was like, oh my goodness, I hope she's okay. Something crazy medically must have happened to DNF there. And, you know, this is just hard.

[David]

And it points out, like, it's not a choice. I mean, maybe in some cases it is, but we should value health. Health should be the first thing we put up on pedestals.

[Megan]

And I also think at the core of it, the death before DNF argument has a large place in ego of like valuing ego over, like, health and over the ability to go for it again in a recent setting. And in like a. I agree, that was.

[David]

That was the comment I wanted to leave for some people. So there were some very well meaning comments that said things like that or said things like, you know, about finishing. And I was like, look, this death before DNF idea, this idea of getting to the finish line no matter what, it is another form of ego. So finishing is very meaningful. In some contexts.

[Megan]

And I think actually, like, I have met athletes that have sentiments like this personally that like, it is not ego, but I think when you start to apply that personal to others, that's when it crosses the line from a personal philosophy, which is beautiful. Like, I've met athletes that are like, I'm not dnfing this race. And I'm like, you know, Peter, God walked to the finish last year, so fucking beautiful. Molly Seidel this year, similar 24 hour finish. And it's like, those are some beautiful journeys. And like that personal decision is so tough and so strong. But I think if you apply that personal philosophy and lump it onto others in a critical way, that is ego.

[David]

It'd be like going into someone's hospital room and saying, doctors, doctors, here's how we should treat when you have no medical background and have no understanding of their charts, you know?

[Megan]

Yeah, it's a great analogy. Yeah.

[David]

And I think that's where it's at. It's not that like your own personal decisions when you're in the one in the hospital bed. Totally valid. And I think, yeah, just zooming out that health is important is a really, really good thing here. Uh, number two, Megan put this in as the brand battles are here.

[Megan]

Actually, it's in all caps. I wrote this. You're like, megan, this sounds like chatgpt, a headline in all caps. The brand battles are here.

[David]

Yeah. It was remarkable to be at these aid stations and see just how much money is being spent. It. It's fascinating seeing the trajectory over time. I think it's great for the sport. Obviously it's great for professional athletes. Um, it's really cool. It also is a little strange if you've been around the sport for a while because, you know, maybe western states is almost like an area of worship for some people in the sport. Um, I don't know if I should go with this analogy.

[Megan]

Should I? You should. You should swing. Take a big swing. And on. In honor of Hans.

[David]

I apologize in advance for this, but it almost feels like a shopping mall that has grown around a church where there's this really inherently beautiful, like, respectful part of it. And then the brands are jumping in to be a part of it, which is very cool because the people at the brands are amazing and the brands are doing good work.

[Megan]

And also there's some really cool things that come from it. So you weren't at the start because we brought Leo with us, so you had to sleep with Leo as I went to the start. But Hoka Projected the names of every athlete onto the mountain. Wow. Up as. So they could see it as they're running up the escarpment apartment. And it's like, that is a really beautiful touch.

[David]

Yeah. And it's incredible.

[Megan]

They also have the HOKA logo beneath it. So good marketing.

[David]

It's also just very interesting. It's a crossroads in a beautiful way, and I love it. You know, I think the more we get professionalization and money, the better it will be for everybody who cares about all of this. But I think that also gets back to the death before DNF thing, where you're seeing a clash of two cultures that are hitting at once and where it evolves to, who knows? It's almost like. Like when I always like my astronomical analogies, but when two galaxies collide in astronomical time and, you know, stars and, you know, entire parts, arms of the galaxy get thrown off, and there's amazing, amazing computer models of this. You should all go look at it because then the galaxy reforms as one super galaxy. And I think we're though, in the part where the galaxies are colliding and things are being thrown off and I don't know exactly what it's going to look like at the end, but it's kind of exciting.

[Megan]

It's kind of a beautiful amalgamation, though. So you have Hoga projecting the names of the athletes on the mountain, and then you go to Roby Point and someone has handwritten posters for each athlete saying, like, you know, go bib number 395 or whatever it is. And it was like they had each of those lined up. And I felt like it was a beautiful reflection of, like, you have the new. Of like the ACG tents and all of the orange everywhere and the HOKA tents and everything with like, like still the handwritten culture. The, like the lights up, the people, and it just varies by aid station and location. And I feel like the two are coexisting in somewhat of a beautiful way. But then there's also the clash at times too.

[David]

I love it. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens.

[Megan]

But who do you think? 1. So obviously Hoka presenting sponsor, like, definitely won the brand wars. Probably invested the most money, I assume acg second, like a lot of orange everywhere.

[David]

Yeah, I only think ACG came in and really threw their weight around.

[Megan]

Yeah, they were really. They're there just kind of trying to poach on hoka.

[David]

I don't. It kind of reminds me like, if you have a girl in high school or whatever.

[Megan]

Yeah, I was Going to.

[David]

And a guy just comes in with his like truck and goes vroom, vroom. And the girl's like, oh.

[Megan]

Or it's you and your little blue Suzuki Reno. That's Ultra. Just like driving up like, we're good.

[David]

I'm in my blue Suzuki Reno. Like I really care about you. And the guy in the Suzuki arena is like orange baby.

[Megan]

That's. That's acg.

[David]

That's acg.

[Megan]

Okay, give me one more brand that you saw there.

[David]

Ultra did well. Tara Dower. That was really cool.

[Megan]

Well, their athletes did well but I feel like they had a much more low key brand presence. Did you have seen any other shoe brand presence?

[David]

I don't really know. Did you?

[Megan]

I saw mount to coast, but that was about it. It was really ACG and HOKA duking

[David]

it out that really brought in. So it's exciting. I can't wait for it. I think we're going to see million dollar contracts really soon and honestly we probably should now given that presence. The most valuable athletes in the sport are worth so much more than they're currently being paid. And some are being paid a lot actually.

[Megan]

Do you think Jim is at that level?

[David]

I have no idea.

[Megan]

Yeah, I assume he probably should be.

[David]

He definitely should be.

[Megan]

When you think about like the cumulative brand, like coming together to support him actually, I guess he's only Hoka, right? Yeah, actually no, he's wahoo. He's a few other things.

[David]

Yeah, he's wahoo. But like the single contract from Hoka, I don't know. But you look at an athlete like Hans who is clearly going to reset the sport. It's like man, companies are getting huge bargains right now. Even though they're, you know, good deals, they're life changing deals. It's amazing. But just like other sports, we're going to see an acceleration in contracts. Like we've seen this in cycling recently where now super domestiques. So not even the guys that are winning the races, but the guys that are helping you win races are making 3 million euros a euro at CA in some of the super teams. We're going to see that same increase here as this brand presence like signifies how much is actually being invested. Because the brands are putting in enough money that since all you need is one, those super athletes are going to start getting quiet deals that'll trickle down to everybody else when you're making bets on young athletes. And that's, that's really good for any athlete out there listening. That's like, will there ever be a Living for me in the sport. Yes. Actually five years from now, things are going to change forever.

[Megan]

And I think this builds well into the third point of we're seeing a lot of athletes coming over from short distance trails. And I wonder if part of that pool to come over is in fact the contracts is. I feel like there's, and this is another hot take. I feel like there's more visibility right now in a race like Western sleep states than there is in a race like the US Short distance mountain champs. And actually, in fact that's definitely a point when you look at like the live stream totals. Maybe there was 600 people on the live stream at the US Mountain Champs and I don't know how much the live stream hit western states, but it's bonkers.

[David]

It's not even comparable.

[Megan]

It's not even comparable. And I wonder if that pool of athletes like Jen Lichter, like Francesco Pupi who's a like masterclass at short distance, if some of those contracts are pulling the athletes in or even just like the notoriety or the, the cool factor, the wow factor of doing these ultras.

[David]

Oh, totally agree that there's this, this you know, ma super massive black hole of ultra and specifically of western states and UTMB races like the UTMB series that is pulling every athlete into it because that's where contracts come from. Similarly, if you get a golden ticket now, you got a shoe contract waiting for you. It's, it's wild. And I mean, you know, looking back, the passing on along the golden ticket thing, like that was a really big financial hit overall in a way that I'm proud of. But it, it's significant now that you understand if you get a golden ticket, you're getting a shoe contract if you want it. Right there.

[Megan]

Next day I actually had an athlete I coached lamenting the fact that no one in the top 10 was unsponsored. But it is, I think it's that exact fact of the golden ticket like phenomena. If you get a golden ticket and you get a sponsorship and thus like, you know, athletes in the top 10 are all sponsored. Yeah, more like team. No team representation.

[David]

Probably very little because we're essentially team Swap pockets podcast.

[Megan]

It's true, actually. Yeah, we have other means of.

[David]

Yeah, if it weren't for the swap podcast, I probably would have signed a shoe contract long ago. You know, just out of necessity for the family. But even with that, every single top 10 finisher in the men's and women's race and the non binary athletes were

[Megan]

over 30 and some people were just barely slipping.

[David]

By greater than or equal to 30.

[Megan]

Yes. Yeah. By a few days.

[David]

But, you know, that. That's an interesting point that I think is relevant here, that it's still. Even as we have this, this, you know, crop of really fast people coming in, it seems like that's a sweet spot. Between 30 and 40 is a really big sweet spot for ultras. And, you know, I think there's a bigger chance maybe that we see an athlete over 40 than under 30 like this past year. So it's. It's like a cool trajectory. That being said, Hans is going to throw all this stuff out in the next few years.

[Megan]

But it is true. I mean, we had a number of athletes under 30 on the starting line and to see that top 10 result was. Was curious to me. What are you looking all around?

[David]

I'm looking for my phone because remember that funny comment we got?

[Megan]

You know, I should call it. So whenever I call your phone, it results in you. You put my ringtone to this alarm. You're sitting on it.

[David]

I got it. Um, okay, here's. Here's a message that we just. Not message a comment that we just got in. Lull at the message that ultra running at this intensity is a recipe for young and fit forever per performance and longevity in this sport. Don't go hand in hand for more than just a few years. Your own broken body is just more evidence, as are the injuries of Killian Jornette and Jim Walmsley in the ever younger field of athletes. If you want to be young and fit forever, this ain't it. Plantar boy.

[Megan]

Plantar boy. Man, oh man, that's so good.

[David]

I actually liked it because I thought that that comment was funny enough that it deserves some props.

[Megan]

Is it going to be up in time? So I feel like you're going to write a comment back. I'm curious to see what you wrote back and then block him. So is it going to be up in time? As this podcast gets released on Tuesday,

[David]

I usually, I try to keep the comment up for like 36 hours and then I block because I'm like, not. Not because the comment. Right. It's because if someone has bad intentions on the Internet, I just don't want to see it in the future because it has nothing to do. Like, their comment's actually funny and it's

[Megan]

actually as they have zero followers, zero posts.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan]

You're the only person they follow, so they created this account for you.

[David]

Cool. But I mean, I respect that.

[Megan]

I should be honored by that.

[David]

But the point being, like, if you show me you have bad intentions, I am going to block.

[Megan]

Block.

[David]

Because, like, bad intentions are bad. And one person actually, who I blocked, who brought up something that I thought was just, like, mean and not relevant, emailed me and said something about the block immediately after. And I was like. I didn't respond because I don't want to get into it, but I'm like, look, you have bad intentions on the Internet. I don't need to be a part of that. You can. You can do that. But my response was. And this was written as we started the podcast, I'm hearing that you're grouping me in the same conversation as Jim and Killian. Thank you. Also, no top 10 finisher was in their 20s.

[Megan]

Hot take.

[David]

Okay, okay. Let's actually update and see where we're at. I liked his comment. So it was at 2 likes and I was at 0. The post has been up for a day, so we might not got too much here. You want to kill some time here?

[Megan]

Let's see, let's see.

[David]

Let's see if their comment got any more likes. It's not showing up. Maybe it was deleted. Okay.

[Megan]

They deleted themselves.

[David]

I still need to block. Interesting world out there. Uh, next one. Carbs are here to stay. Another one from Megan. I like your titles.

[Megan]

I know those are all caps too, so.

[David]

Enervit, 106 grams of carbs per hour from poopy. Um, everybody else was taking high carbs. The problem with these hundreds is just high carb gets difficult as nausea gets high. And dealing with nausea is part of the game. And I think a lot of the times the. The best races ever are master classes in managing nausea and also luck in not getting severe, severe nausea. So. So I've had this experience really, like, to the max. So first, Leadville, extreme nausea. Second, Leadville, some nausea because it's very high altitude, but not as bad.

[Megan]

Do you think there was a difference between the two of those in terms of fueling strategy or just luck?

[David]

I went higher carb. I think it was just luck experience and also better electrolyte total. So, like, I think if you get the electrolytes just slightly misbalanced in your hydration, you get lower gastric emptying rates and the fluid sits in the stomach. Stomach. And when that happens, like, eventually it needs to come out. Thankfully, in 2024, I was able to wait till the finish line. And you remember that. We do not need to get into details. I have. I befouled parts of Leadville that Will never get clean again. Actually, Leadville is having a wildfire right now.

[Megan]

I was just about to say that. I was like, maybe you just, like, you know, scattered some, like, protective wildflower juices on the ground.

[David]

Well, I mean, they could just take those trash bags and send them over the fire. Like a helicopter just dropping them out.

[Megan]

You know, when the helicopter just, like, vomits out that stuff. That is, like, wildfire retardant. We should. That's just you.

[David]

Oh, that's what I was doing this whole time. But 2025, none of those issues. And then 2025, Javelina, also no issues. And I think part of it was dialing it in. Meanwhile, at western states in 2025, I had severe nausea and actually did vomit a couple times. And after that, wasn't able to get the carbs in. And then, you know, thought I was going to die. Not from the nausea, but from the after effects of not being able to feel most, like, likely. And so, you know, it. You are on a razor's edge with that at all times. Thus, the high carb calculation gets so much different in races like this. In western states in particular, is so, so hard.

[Megan]

I was just gonna say the context of western states, I think, is the hardest ultra for the stomach. Just because you're also, like, at altitude, you're in the high country when it's cooler. And so I think some of the electrolyte interactions are trickier in the high country. And then you start to get real hot and everything just bakes in the stomach. And it's tricky.

[David]

You just have to go so hard, hard.

[Megan]

You just.

[David]

In the final point here, you have to go for it to race for a podium spot. This race is special because, like, you can. You can race from the back for top 10. And that is awesome. And sometimes athletes go all the way to fourth. Caitlin Fielder was way back at mile 30, ran all the way to fourth, and she's one of the best short distance athletes, too.

[Megan]

Fuj Zhang, too. She was, you know, and she was taking care of her body. She had pants on up the escarpment. She took them off and she went from like 18th, 20th up to seventh. And so you can do that, but I think it's.

[David]

Will Murray went from 24, fourth to the top 10.

[Megan]

Will Murray was like three or four minutes, five, six minutes ahead of the women at Robinson Flat and was looking so good. And I was like, how are you looking so good back here? But then he moved up all day.

[David]

And that. That totally works. But what we're seeing More and more is that when you want to have the breakthrough day, you have to take extreme risks. And people are racing a hundred milers like they're 50 miles or a hundred ks, and then you have to keep going. And it just introduces parts of human physiology that are totally at the edge and have no ability to scientifically study because you can't do control studies on this. You can't get information on it, and also have no ability to isolate an individual athletes over time. Some athletes catch lightning in a bottle on the day. You know, Ryan Montgomery has trained his ass off for this breakthrough. He took his big shot, he took it from the gun and he stuck it. And other athletes did the same thing and didn't. And the. If you ran this race a hundred times, you would not get the same result a hundred times. It would probably be the weirdest scatter. And what's the magic part? What actually happens and every day is its own scientific experiment. And learning what works for individuals is probably the most important thing.

[Megan]

And it's scary to go for it. I will never forget as a coach, standing at Robinson Flat crewing Tara. So Tara was 6. She had a phenomenal day. Like, I just love her authenticity, but she has this like, authenticity, and she's just like, you know, the glitter and the aura of Tara, but then you match that with. She's gonna have a two and a half hour PowerPoint presentation for her crew meeting where she's walking everyone through the most precise points and she's dialed and she mixes the two of those together. Well, but she was there, I was there. Robinson Flat crewing her. And she looked up at me and this is 32 miles into 100 mile race. And she goes, megan, this is already hurting so bad. And Tara responds to like a little bit of tough love. And I looked at her, I was like, tara, this is supposed to hurt. You're doing really great things. And I think, like, that was the moment that you see that courage embodied of, like, you know, what is it like to hurt that bad at mile 32 of a 100 and keep going.

[David]

Yeah, it's just wild and wildly exciting. So we'll talk about more stories in future weeks. But basically just a really, really cool moment to witness. And I'm still sad for, for Hans. I'm gutted for him. Um, but he's going to be back and he's going to win this thing. I would vote. I think he's going to win this thing four times.

[Megan]

Whoa.

[David]

That's my hottest course record. Oh, yeah. But I think that's conditions dependent.

[Megan]

It is interesting how much the conditions, like you look at the models and how much even one or two degrees, shift, shift finishing times at western states. And so.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, but I. I mean, that is. We can revisit this in 10 years. But that's my estimate just based on seeing him and. And most of all, seeing what happened, you know, in that race. He is going to go for it. And when you go for it, sometimes you have tough experiences. But guess what? You're gonna have tough experiences when you don't go for it, too. But if you go for it, you're gonna have way fewer questions about what might have been been. And so for everybody out there, I think the lesson is just, let's leave what ifs behind. You know, I think that what he shows is that if you truly believe it manifests in ways that are scary and are vulnerable, but it's always worth it to see what happens, because that's where you learn.

[Megan]

And I think, you know, we got to be behind the scenes quite a bit on the Hans crew. And what I love about Hans is he loves engaging in conversations about the race before the race. Like, that's really rare as an athlete. Like most. A lot of athletes are like, I don't want to talk about the race. I want distractions. I don't want to think about this. And Hans, I remember sitting there with him and just being like, he was so excited to see Jim make a move. He was so excited to be part of history, whether that history was himself or Jim. And I think it's cool to see an athlete like Hans be so personally invested in the sport that he wants to talk about it pre race. And it's like, that made me want to talk about races pre race in a way of just like. Like being excited for it.

[David]

Let's end this with my favorite song on this topic that I've reflected on for myself called could have Been Me by the Struts. And I think a lot of the people that are armchair quarterbacks say that they like this type of stuff. Like, here would hear the song and be like, yeah, that's how I live. And in reality, this type of song is exact the exact opposite of the way they live, an exact opposite of the things they uplift. So here it is. Don't want to live as an untold story Rather go out in a blaze of glory I can't hear you I don't fear you I'll live now because the bad die last Dodging bullets with Your broken past I can't hear you I can't fear you now Wrapped in your regret what a waste of blood and sweat I want to taste love and pain I want to feel pride and shame I don't want to take my time don't want to waste one line I want to live better days Never look back and say could have been me, it could have been me

[Megan]

I want to feel pride and shame that's actually one of my, my, the most beautiful lines. But it's also like sports embodied. Like, you know, you think about truly going for it and how many times you feel pride and shame. And they're probably. If you're lucky, they're probably equal, you know?

[David]

Yeah. And if they're equal, maybe you should go for those, you know, big shut swings a little bit more often.

[Megan]

I thought about that with myself actually, is like, I don't think I felt enough shame. And I mean, some of that is just my heart hasn't let me take big swings in the last five years. But, like, now I feel like I'm ready and I want to.

[David]

Yeah, and you've tried, you know, you felt. You felt it in other ways.

[Megan]

Well, maybe in some ways, even trying in the first place is taking a big swing. Yeah, it's like, you know, you watch that YouTube that I put out with director Cody, and it's like, you know, just by racing Crown King Scramble 50K with these heart issues, in many ways that is a big swing. And in many ways, like, gave me Perry carditis again, you know, and just going for it.

[David]

Now so many people are out there, you know, saying similar things about, like, why is she doing that, this? And the answer is F it, we ball.

[Megan]

F it, we ball Shimmer at the same time. Yeah.

[David]

I mean, F it, we shimmer. I mean, the answer actually is I'm trying to open up the lyrics. Oh, no, oh, no. Oh, no. Whoa.

[Megan]

You really failed your phone password there.

[David]

You don't want to live as an untold story, you know, so no more untold stories. Let's go for it. And now let's get on to the rest of the episode.

[Megan]

Yeah, actually, first, no, I'm going to ask you a question. I mean, I think people out there are probably curious, like, you could have been racing western states. I mean, your foot right now is a little bit in shambles. But, like, say the foot was good. How did you feel being out there with fomo?

[David]

Oh, fine. I would have gone fricking stomped. Even at my peak.

[Megan]

I don't know about that.

[David]

These guys are incredible, but also just no fomo. You know, I am not living an untold story, right? Like, the flip side of that song is that sometimes you go out in a blaze of glory, glory and. Or a blaze just in a blaze, you know, it's just part of it. And I am fully at peace with that now. And I think being there closed the loop a little bit. I was back in Forest hill where I DNF'd last year and hugged so many people while I DNF'd. And this year, so many people came up to me and said the kindest things you've ever heard. Thank you all. I'm sure a lot of them are listening. And those are the things that. It's like, shit, man. You know, Like, I think I anchored a lot in the availability bias of really mean messages I got or really critical messages I got. And I learned from that experience that, like, I am more than that specifically because I've let myself be more than that by betting on outcomes that seem impossible. And that's how I coach too, right? And hopefully I bring out things in people that others would not have thought possible over time. And that's my goal in life. And so it was a winding journey to get to that point. But I am more proud of myself for going for it, failing, getting back in, handing it away, and then going back and being at peace with it than I am if I had gone back and had a good day. Because that's just a continuation of the obvious safe path that you would write if you were a screenwriter. I don't want the screenwriter path. I want the real life shit.

[Megan]

That's so well said, David. And I think it's like, I saw you there and I felt the same thing too. Is like. Like, you're anchoring. We can talk about, like, ACG coming into the big car being like, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom. But then you meet just the most amazing people. Like, we had the most incredible conversations at Forest Hill. I went to the track at 1:30 at night, 2 o' clock at night, and had just some of the most beautiful conversations with people. And it's like, that's what this is about. You know, it's not about brand wars or bicarb or carbs. It's about, well, maybe the carbs.

[David]

I think it's about carbs.

[Megan]

It's about carbs and bicarb, but it's also about those conversations. And it was like, I think, you know, it's a hard day. Like, as a coach, like we've both felt so deeply for Hans. Like you're gutted and then I'm just so excited for Tara and there's roller coaster of emotions. But then you talk to people and it's grounding and you realize that like this community is awesome and you know, it comes with a lot of stuff too, like brands coming in and there's collisions in the galaxies. But like, yeah, it's so cool.

[David]

At the same time, it's about the stories.

[Megan]

Yeah, it really is.

[David]

And I don't know. No point in an untold story. Might as well we get one shot at life, you know, then we're all dust and things really feel like they matter in the moment, but they don't at all.

[Megan]

Somehow you left the abyss out of that.

[David]

Yeah, it's implied.

[Megan]

It's implied.

[David]

Okay, let's get on. Before we do that quick promo for patreon, go to patreon.com swap swap got tons of messages after the race of people that used the swap champion 100 mile plan for top finishes. I mean, including some athletes that were in the top 30 overall and a ton of athletes chasing cutoffs and things like that. So tons of training plans. Here's a message from a listener. I just wanted to drop a note of them.

[Megan]

Thanks.

[David]

I followed your 100 mile champion plan this spring and was able to sustain my highest mileage without injury in years. Also made possible by copious carbs.

[Megan]

Tm.

[David]

Yeah, they did a trademark note. I completed my first 100 this weekend with a goal of sub 24 and finished in 1755.

[Megan]

What?

[David]

I kept your idea of these events as stupid human tricks firmly in my mind. If I could keep fueling and run in Z2, there's no reason I couldn't keep going and was able to confidently believe in my future self throughout the run. Thanks for your relentlessly positive and informative messaging and for helping people unlock their best selves at every level of the sport. You are so appreciated.

[Megan]

And then potato hands emoji.

[David]

Potato hands emoji. So tons of training plans. The thing that's popping off right now is a hamstring exercise for high hamstring pain or discomfort that is now free for everybody. So you can just go check patreon.com swap there's a ton of free resources. I try to make maybe a quarter or half of things free or anything that is especially useful that like we shouldn't have behind a paywall free. So you can just go check out patreon.com swap and if you can't afford it at $5 a month. Message and we will get you in.

[Megan]

Do you think the high hamstring stuff is popping off because hamstrings are hard, very hard. Or do you think it's because you're sky humping?

[David]

I do not think the sky humping is bringing in anybody.

[Megan]

I think a substantial amount of people are there for the sky humping. Okay. I'm sorry to break it to you. We need to put that in your Suzuki Reno. Just the sound.

[David]

Exactly. Okay, so let's get on to the I card. Study. Study. And we might just do this one today. We're pretty late in the episode.

[Megan]

Oh, man.

[David]

We have other ones for next week. The crossfitting one would be a perfect headline study because I think it's very important. It's called graded carbohydrate ingestion. Up to 120 grams per hour. Attenuates the reduction in critical power. Falling three hours of moderate intensity exercise in a dose dependent manner. Okay. That's the entire study. I love these titles that just are going for it all the way from the gun.

[Megan]

Like, we're gonna smash all our findings into this title.

[David]

Moby Dick would be like, okay, it's a guy, it's a whale. They don't fuck, but they kind of want to. Actually, I don't. I've never read Moby Dick, but I'm

[Megan]

guessing Moby Dick feels perfect for all these exercise. Physiologist, audience. It's like we took 13 men. I don't know. Here's a long title.

[David]

I don't know if the whale in Moby Dick is named Moby Dick or honestly even is a male.

[Megan]

We should have read Moby Dick. I mean, I feel like if you're named Moby Dick and you're a female, that's actually a really fucking cool thing. He's got a nose ring.

[David]

It's true.

[Megan]

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[David]

Pop a punk band first.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Moby Vagina. Let's go, let's go. That'd be perfect.

[Megan]

How about Moby Clitoris?

[David]

Oh, that'd be really good.

[Megan]

It takes it a step too far.

[David]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. What were you gonna say?

[Megan]

I was gonna say, well, Moby Dick definitely has a nose ring, but I can't help. You know, like, when you're looking for a new car and you see that car model everywhere around town? I'm doing the same thing right now with nose piercings. I'm like, I see them everywhere.

[David]

Yeah. All the coolest people have one.

[Megan]

I see lots of Moms with nose pier. I'm like that's cool.

[David]

Yeah, it's cool. You're rocking it right now. Okay, so this took 16 endurance trained cyclists and triathletes with a 52 VO2 max average. So high but not like astronomical as we see in some of these studies.

[Megan]

And those were 15 men and one women. Yeah, a token woman in there. Yeah, they went, they're like, we don't wanna say that we had 16 men.

[David]

Uh, it took a 24 hour carb load to start. So making sure all the athletes had plenty of carbs on board of 8 grams per kg which is very high. And we'll have carb loading science on next week's episode since some very cool studies came out there. Then a standard carbohydrate meat meal pre exercise of 2 grams per kilogram. And then they did a three minute critical power test before and after three hours of biking at 95% of gas exchange threshold. So three minutes hard 95 or then three hours of steady exercise and then three minutes hard again. And they had three groups of 120 grams per hour, 60 grams per hour and just water.

[Megan]

And those three hours were done around Z2. So kind of like a moderate sustained post bush. And for the carbs they did a carbohydrate beverage which was 150 milliliters that they gave every 20 minutes in a 1 to 0.8 ratio. And it's kind of interesting that they call it a beverage cuz I feel like 40 grams and 150 milliliters feels a little bit like a semi solid. Yeah, it's a lot of, it's a lot of carbs in a beverage.

[David]

Yeah, yeah it is very high carb. But for cycling, high carb drinks seem to work a lot better in the results. In a non fatigue state people averaged 277 watts for the three minutes. So that's our baseline. We want to see reduction from the There just water was 236 watts. So pretty solid reduction. 60 grams per hour was 257 watts after three hours and 120 grams per hour was 266 watts. And here is the conclusion. These findings demonstrate that the boundary between heavy and severe intensity exercise shifts under fatigue. So that's LT2 essentially, but higher than that. With carbohydrate availability possibly acting as a key modulator of endurance durability.

[Megan]

And it's kind of wild to think about those raw numbers of going from two 77 watts fresh and then to after three hours that only dropping to two 66 watts with 90, with 120 grams of carbs an hour. And that's not that substantial.

[David]

You know, you're able to sustain a lot. And what's really significant here is that it shows dose response. So there's some difference between 60 and 1 20, which is pretty substantial for this type of study design. Because if you magnify that out across training cycles, you, if you start to train enough so that you're only losing a little bit at the end of these events. Our fatigue resistance theory, which is probably backed up by this, is you get stronger and stronger and stronger, stronger. So while this is on a single day, what happens when you magnify it out over weeks and months and years, Those athletes that are doing 266 will get stronger and eventually that number will probably be very, very high. Whereas the 60 gram per hour group will probably stagnate a little bit in the water group is going to regress. And so, you know, the higher car when you're pushing probably has long term adaptation benefits. And this, what I wish they did here is had a 20 grand per hour group just to shut up those low carb.

[Megan]

I was gonna say the same thing. Why not toss that in? It's a point of just like.

[David]

Ah, yeah, because like the conclusion from the low carb people on this is oh, what all that shows is that the small glucose pool is important because C2 60 or 60 is still doing pretty well. Um, and if you did 20 and they were right around water it would help so much. But no, they get to maintain their insistence that it's just blood glucose that we're measuring rather than, you know, the carb sparing ability of doing high carb,

[Megan]

which is so rough. I wonder how many. I bet you there's. We have like a lot of publications that are in review or that are like scientific studies in process looking at this exact thing with different carb totals and I wonder how many of studies it's gonna take to come out before we start arguing 20 grams of carbs an hour.

[David]

Yeah, I think that conversation is only happening in very small spaces. But the main one being Twitter, unfortunately, but. But I can't wait to see when any of these studies comes out with a null finding. Will any of them ever come out with a null finding? I don't know. I think even if they do, it's probably going to be an insignificant positive

[Megan]

difference or like measurement error. We talk all the time about measurement error in exercise physiology studies. I also wonder, I mean you do wonder if there have been null findings that have been found that just haven't been published, but based off of our, like, anecdotal findings, we don't see that at all.

[David]

Yeah, I think that they would still talk about it. So another vote for carburetors, carbs, if you can, but especially in training. Because the idea is, while it helps on the day, like, the study finds the biggest place it helps is in helping your body adapt over time. And so it's nuanced. You don't wanna be doing this on your short jogs, most likely, unless you have an eating disorder history or something like that. But yeah, every athlete at Western states has probably taken in carbs consistently on every single long run because you can't train at that level anymore without doing it. And so the athletes that aren't are left in the past and. And they're just not at these start lines at all.

[Megan]

Okay, walk me through. So, like, you know, building this study off of Western States, what happens as you start to experience GI issues and severe nausea and becomes harder to get carbs in? How do you, as a coach and as someone, like, as an athlete yourself, how do you balance titrating carbs down to manage GI issues? And where do you go with that? Is it like the most that you can get in? Do you have like a certain level that you drop down to before going back up? Because that's like a. That's a theme of Western stuff states.

[David]

I think you just gotta get in as much as you can. Usually what I say is all you need is forty to sixty after a hundred K. And that's what I was trying to tell Hans, and at that point it was just too far gone, probably. But, you know, if you get in that much, you can probably still perform. The problem is if you go to zero long enough, you're ending your race anyway. And so in the old bet on yourself like framework, you should probably try to keep it in. Do you agree with that?

[Megan]

I agree with that. And I think you could do a period of time of 40 and 60 and see if you can get your stomach calmed down enough to then gradually bump back up to 70 to 90. But I do think the higher carb at the start is a nice buffer in some ways of, like, if you have GI issues like, it is sometimes okay to back off and then try to go back up.

[David]

Yeah, but that being said, getting it down is important. That's where the slurp method comes in. Try to get it past your pallet and eventually Sometimes it's just too far gone, and you learn from that and develop new strategies. But I think the problem is you can't compete at the top level or even at your own top level, whatever that is, without some carbs. And dropping down to nothing is how all of these. These walking races go, right? Like, every athlete that's walking to the finish is at some point decided, oh, I don't need carbs anymore. I can't do this anymore. And it's like, well, that's fine, and it's very cool. But, like, maybe it's worth it to try to take the risk of keeping it going. While it might push you to dnf, it's worth it to have the day. And, you know, that's the main thing that my races show is I did try to keep forcing it, except in one race, which was western states, where I dropped down being like, okay, I just need to survive and I'll be okay. But I went into the hole, and I turn into a pumpkin as soon as there's no high carb. You know, I think the. The super talents have a lot of different options, but people like me who have different types of talents, maybe mainly GI need to get it or there's no going back.

[Megan]

Well, I keep coming back to, like, the effort we ball the Hans, the, like, courage to go for it. And I feel like in some ways, the 150 grams of carbs an hour is a form of courage.

[David]

Oh, than I did.

[Megan]

Yeah. Yeah. That's like. I mean, we should talk about that more. I was like, that's a risk, man. That's spicy.

[David]

Like, I mean, I'm confident in it now. I feel as if I could get. If I could just get healthy, I could run a hundred miles in, like, a week off of very little training because, you know, I got this old man know how, like, eventually everybody's gonna be doing 150 grams an hour in the men's field and a little bit less in the women's field in general, you know, because it scales with body size and output. But for now, it's still an advantage. I still have a little bit of an advantage there, is that. That I can do that. And I think it's just risky to do, much like redosing bicarb is risky to do. I haven't done it at all in a race. Maybe I should.

[Megan]

The only other athlete that we've heard do that is Killian, but it comes with a massive GI risk. Yeah, even. Even practicing that in training, it's different at My lady of a race. Yeah.

[David]

So you never know. Okay, next story here. This is the pit toilet story that we need to talk about. This story came in from dozens of listeners as we talked a few weeks ago about the hypothetical of if you drop your gel in a toilet, would you go retrieve it when you're all out of fuel?

[Megan]

And this was a regular flush toilet. And I was like, absolutely, of course I would do that.

[David]

And I proposed the hypothetical about Jess McLean. And I got a text from Jess subsequent to the after the podcast and she said yes, she would go for it as well, but she was specific that she would not go into like a porta potty for it.

[Megan]

Oh, no. I for sure would not either.

[David]

Okay, well, this story is a guy dropped his sunglasses. I assume it's a good guy.

[Megan]

I think it's a guy. It was in Fresno.

[David]

Yeah, it was in Fresno. Fresno man.

[Megan]

Okay. The Fresno man. But this is relevant because it's hot as like heck in Fresno. And can you imagine, like being in a pit toilet, how hot that is?

[David]

I don't know. The blue fluid seems pretty refreshing.

[Megan]

That's true. Maybe it's going for cooling.

[David]

You know why pigs put themselves in mud? To stay cool. Yeah, there's different type of mud. This guy went in for his sunglasses and somehow got stuck around the corner. I can kind of see how that would happen. And he had to be rescued. Apparently the rescue took 15 minutes, but

[Megan]

then it took longer because they had to hose him off. Yeah.

[David]

So, yeah, I respect this. I feel like this is guy is about that life. It's probably nice sunglasses.

[Megan]

I assume actually he deserves a sunglasses sponsorship at this point.

[David]

Gooder, get on that.

[Megan]

I know I probably wasn't Gooders.

[David]

Maybe they were like, like it's probably

[Megan]

like Smith sunglasses or Oakley or.

[David]

Or there's like meta Ray Ban sunglasses.

[Megan]

It'd be so funny if it was like a $15 pair of sunglasses.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, I kind of respect this. I. I feel like. All right, Megan, you're on a six hour run. You're three hours away.

[Megan]

Yep.

[David]

No fuel anywhere, no people. You drop a gel in a porta potty that you can reach, you don't have to get in. You can reach with your arm. Do you get it?

[Megan]

How clean is the porta potty?

[David]

It's pre race porta potty.

[Megan]

The pre race porta potties. We actually had a conversation on the way here. It's like what a. Like communal. Like, you know, when everyone is there shitting in a porta potty before a race. Like, that is just a beautiful act of community.

[David]

Yeah. There's no. No act and moment that is more bonding than when you're leaving that pre race porta potty and you hold the door open for somebody and just give them a nod. It's a little nod. It's like we both know.

[Megan]

We both know what just happened in here. Ooh, would you. Three hours left.

[David]

Three hours left. You're bonked out of your mind because it's three hours and you. You know, there's. All four of your gels went down there. I mean, you would take. Be taking a lot more, but all four went. No other chance to get out anything.

[Megan]

I probably would.

[David]

Yeah, you would.

[Megan]

I mean, yeah, I definitely would. I need to feel good the next day.

[David]

Okay.

[Megan]

I just want to get, like, neurovirus three days later. Why not?

[David]

I wanted people to know. And, hey, that would be stomach training, as in our big thesis here.

[Megan]

Would you.

[David]

No, I wouldn't. That one.

[Megan]

I mean, actually, to tell you the

[David]

truth, I totally would in all of these. I'm just trying to be funny to make it different than you. Nothing scares me about poop anymore. Anymore.

[Megan]

I mean, yeah, to the point that, like, you're putting your legs up in the Wonderland bathroom and I'm like, man, oh, man.

[David]

Well, when you have kids, you're dealing with it all the time.

[Megan]

Yeah, that's true.

[David]

And I think it's just. It's a version of ego if you think that your kids poop is fundamentally different than other person's bathroom breaks because your kids are gross too.

[Megan]

Yeah, I know, but, I mean, I love Leo and Ollie's poops way more than other people's poops.

[David]

Okay, that's. See, that's just bias. That's ego. That's because they're a part of it.

[Megan]

I don't think it's ego. I think it's bias.

[David]

No, I think it's ego because you're like, oh, they're a part of me. That's part of why you love your children. Right. Would you. Would you it be like, let's say it was someone else that you really respect, but that's not a part of you. Like, let's say it was Killian's poop. Would you go in?

[Megan]

Oh, for sure. I mean, Killian's. Killian's a bad example for Killian. I'd go in the pet toilet.

[David]

That's true.

[Megan]

I'm diving in. Killian's gonna have to come rescue me.

[David]

Okay, moving on. I think we can skip the Cyclist power profiling. That'll be cool for next week.

[Megan]

Cross training, actually, let's do the cyclist power profiling. And they get on to questions. Cause that's. It's short and I think it's. It's interesting.

[David]

Okay, so this is a story from Velo. From Jim Cotton, who listens to the podcast. Hi, Jim. Where the UCI, the cycling governing body, seems to be moving forward with a pilot program that is doing a type of biological passport, which is the term.

[Megan]

Well, you would argue that it's not

[David]

biological passport, but it's a term used for blood testing. Testing that measures values over time. So the blood testing itself can be a flag for doping. They've caught a number of athletes non cycling so much as running, often athletes who are doing less sophisticated methods than the pro peloton is. And it looks at things like the age of your red blood cells and your hemoglobin levels. So it's not looking at raw numbers necessarily. It's looking at how they change over time and whether something is scientifically impossible. Then it convenes a group of experts and it gets to a proof level. I don't know exactly what it is, but they often, in the rulings say there's a 1 in 10,000 chance of this happening naturally. And so people are sanctioned. Those people almost always have good excuses when you read them. I mean, if you're gullible like I am. But that has been used to get people via blood tests. And so they're thinking about doing a power passport where they look at cyclist power and any anomalous changes will be used to, not necessarily sanction, but to go toward further review of other things.

[Megan]

And specifically looking at that power passport in training. So gathering a lot of data from training, and to me, as a cyclist, that would absolutely blow my mind in a scary way. Like, I would be on team. Let's not do this. This feels arbitrary. Um, and of course, like, they're going to gather, like, you know, if you gather enough data, I can understand where this could be a proxy for doping. But I think it's scary. Like, you know, I think the hard part about these conversations is the clean athletes are the ones who are scared the most. And can you imagine if you're training and just like putting out really good power on threshold and are scared about it as a clean athlete? Like, that sucks.

[David]

Yeah. Also, the power meters are super prone

[Megan]

to error, I was gonna say. And you can prone to manipulation too, for sure. You can just manipulate data. And so it just. It feels like something that is clunky and scary. And it just feels like, let's just develop better, like, methodology outside of power passports to, like, think about doping.

[David]

That being said, I think gathering the data and not sanctioning base law on it wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Megan]

Well, that's the thing is they're describing this as a training conversation. So, like, we're just going to train the data, we're going to understand it a little bit more. And I actually think that's cool.

[David]

That is cool. And it's cool and it gives us a broader understanding. And I'm sure it's going to be anonymized. So there's not necessarily downside.

[Megan]

I mean, well, I guess it depends on how, like, if you have Tatya Pogacci's power, that's probably not anonymized.

[David]

Yeah, I don't know. I, I. Even though I love of science, I always want to maintain the art of breakthrough, of just like. And then this person had the freakiest day ever. Right. Um, maybe that's not the way it works.

[Megan]

But also it's scary because carbs, we often call carbs, like, you know, a quote, like a, like pancake doping or syrup doping or carb doping. Like, they can be a form of putting out so much more power that I could see an athlete getting scared about this, like, progressing in time, just taking carbs.

[David]

This would have been bad in 19 or 20, 19.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

Right. When athletes made this switch. Now that everybody's made the switch, it wouldn't be, but yeah. So just an interesting story about how big data is, is being thought of this cycling union. So the union for the riders themselves is very against this, as you could imagine.

[Megan]

Oh, it feels like a terrible thing for mental health to be worried about this while training on a daily basis. Yeah, yeah.

[David]

But also just exciting when you think about getting all this power data. I would love the scientific papers that come from this.

[Megan]

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, most cyclists don't release power data on Strava. It's very different than running Strav. And so I just be curious.

[David]

And when cyclists do release it, it's so fun. My favorite follow is Derek G. From Canada because he releases his power data. And, you know, Derek G. Is great. He's finishing in the top 10 of some grand Tours, but he's getting stomped in the big mountains relative to, like, Tade or something. And his power numbers are like, he'll like 460 watts for 12 minutes at the start of a race. Oh, my goodness, these guys are Bonkers.

[Megan]

Well, it is sometimes wild, like, because I feel like the cyclists don't release those power data. Like, you think about that and you see that and you're like, that is otherworldly. Yeah.

[David]

Yeah. It's so weird. Okay, let's get on to question and answer. Before we do that promo for Wahoo. Go check out the Wahoo Kicker Run treadmill. It is the best thing on the market. So many athletes are messaging us now and saying it's life changing for their threshold work. In particular. We have a link in the show notes and just use code swap for a big old fancy fan that costs like 400 bucks added onto it. But you can buy this treadmill knowing you're getting the best product on the market market.

[Megan]

And I'm coming back right now with uphill treadmill threshold workouts. And I love them. Like, it is so fun to go downstairs to the paint cave and just like exist in that plain place of threshold. And I think doing it on a smooth treadmill is nice.

[David]

It is game changing. So go check out the Wahoo Kicker run. And now let's get on to question and answer. We can jump around if there's any you want to do, Megan, but otherwise I will read straight through.

[Megan]

Go straight through.

[David]

There's a. Is there a minimum percentage of current mileage that should be maintained to be able to build smoothly back to similar fitness in the future? Future. I'm thinking of following the amazing long term base training plan on swap, but I'm not sure exactly where in the range of daily mileage to aim for. I typically run 50-60 mph with a peak around 70 when I'm training for a race. I think 35-45 mph would still be very doable once residency is in full swing, but I'm not sure if that's too drastic a drop in mileage. Although background life stress will definitely be increasing compared to before.

[Megan]

Well, it's epic to run through residency and I think this is a place where like getting in whatever mileage that you can in residency is beneficial. I've actually, I follow Rachel Drake on Strava, who's in anesthesiology residency right now and racing at a high level, crushing it. And she does a lot of like, she's like 3 mile 6am runs to the hospital and like whatever you can get in in terms of like even a 20 minute run, 15 minute run home on your way home from work counts as base mileage. And so I think just like getting in those little like Those little runs can be so helpful.

[David]

There are some really cool studies on this that show long term reductions in training. Training up to 66% has no change in VO2 max, as long as you're maintaining that consistency. And I would add doing some sort of like cardiac output power at VO2 work. So what could you drop down to? You could comfortably drop down to 20 to 30 miles per week. If you're doing 50 to 60 now and know you're gonna be fine, just make sure that you do hill strides, like 20 or 30 second hill strides two or three times per week and ideally one hill workout or something like that where you work on your power. If you do that, you'll be able to pick up right where you left off and then be a little bit of a camel when you have opportunity. Like if you ever have a down four days, you can then do higher mileage and easy effort and just throw that in periodically and you don't have to worry so much about staying steady because if you're maintaining, you'll be ready to go back to where you were as soon as you have that opportunity.

[Megan]

And I almost think there's something about like consistency in the cameling of like if you do a long run on your day off, it makes it so that there's like camel day days was three or four days, like your body remembers that a little bit more. And so I think like some of those longer efforts when you have the availability to like help a lot, that's

[David]

what you did on rotations is you would be usually working six days per week and you wake up very early to run and you were able to do really well in that, but often

[Megan]

early like on the treadmill too. So I would go to 24 Hour Fitness, which in California was actually 24 hours. So in Colorado here the 24 Hour Fitness is like 14 Hour Fitness. But in Colorado I could go to 24 Hour Fitness like 3:30 in the morning getting a good run and you

[David]

had some of your, your best races in that time, which is very interesting. For treadmill, another vote for Wahoo. Um, I wish you had it back then. And though in that one day off you could always do a long run. And that I think is totally fine for your body, even if it seems like it's a little too much. Just keep it easy, fuel a ton and you'll probably be able to adapt to that new schedule as long as you stay consistent with it rather than just throwing it in. As Megan pointed out.

[Megan]

I think biggest thing with residency too is Just finding ways to fuel throughout the day like avoiding long periods of low energy availability. And that's key too.

[David]

Okay, next question on health anxiety. I had a question about health anxiety. During taper week, I find myself getting extremely anxious about getting sick in the days leading up to a race or big event. I keep worrying that if I get sick, all the training I've done over the last few months will be for nothing. Even though I know getting sick is just part of life in sports, I tend to stay inside and really limit social interactions the week before a race, which is turning into a habit I don't want to keep. I the habit I don't want to keep. I was wondering if you or Megan have any suggestions, both practical and things you do to limit illness and mental strategies used to handle the taper spiral. Thank you both so much for everything you do.

[Megan]

Gosh, I like, I feel this so much and I think for me, and this is something that I didn't really used to think about and now that we have two small kids, I actually think about quite a bit. And it's hard when you're like, you're staring down this amazing training block and then your 3 year old comes over and like, you know, coughs or has a fever and you're just like, oh my goodness.

[David]

Yeah, it's so amazing. Tough when all I want to do is roll around and Killian means poop.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

And I do it anyway. But I think a little bit about

[Megan]

it, those consequences could be high.

[David]

Yeah. It's worth it though. What's funny, actually, I'm remembering back. Someone saw Killian go to the bathroom and I made a joke at Forest Hill, like they said that and I made a joke about. Did you get any? So now it's actually like on my mind now.

[Megan]

It's so relevant.

[David]

It's so relevant now. Now. Yeah. So totally validate this also clearly validate health anxiety. I went through a severe case of it last year at Western States. And like all anxiety, the key is to figure out ways to live your life and not rationalize the anxiety until you, you know, let it control your approach. And so what I would say in these cases is, look, if you indulge this to the max, if you're putting on, you know, just so much barrier in your life life to get to the place that you're just not as worried about it, you are also taking away the joy of the process and you're going to be putting the race itself on a pedestal. So unless you're a killer performer you're probably going to perform worse in the race anyway. So I would vote for just trying to have fun. Do not worry about precautions outside of what you would normally do. Not to stay, get sick. But people are not dangerous like it. Being in public is fine and just letting yourself live your life and understand that those feelings are normal, but not letting them dictate your actions I think is the best decision. Because otherwise racing will eventually become an anxiety provoking thing overall. Not just getting to the start line like you're talking about, but the race itself because you will be in an anxious state around the race.

[Megan]

Actually, that's what I was going to say is I feel like the tricky part about this is by indulging those thoughts, the anxiety can sometimes bleed over into racing. And so sometimes you just have to be like, eff it. I'm gonna like, let it go. And for me, like, kids have been a great vehicle of that. Like, we were in the airport yesterday and Leo's obsessed with moving walkways. And so we took every single moving walkway from the back of the terminal up to the Denver train. And Leo was just holding the railing on every single moving walkway as he was walking. And I was like, you think about the germ accumulation of that. And part of me wanted to be like, Leo, don't hold that handle. But the other part of me was like, you know, just let him be a kid. And I think by having the kids, it's almost like there's so much germ exposure that it's almost freed me of that a little bit.

[David]

Why are you worried about Leo when I'm around? Yeah, I'm putting my hand everywhere.

[Megan]

You're putting your feet up in the Wonderland bathroom and killing and Killian.

[David]

Leo isn't putting his hands in the same place as I am. Definitely be more worried about me. I've probably helped your biomes so much in your body. And that goes for anxiety in the race itself. Like, you know, when it comes to the race performance, when it comes to your health in the race, anxiety is normal. But if you let things get on a pedestal, everything gets scarier over time. Which is why, like my message to Hans now is just, hell yeah, let's do it again again next year. You know, like, do not. I feel as if so many people that write in the. The types of comments we were saying about how these racers should have done it or whatever don't understand that. Like, the idea is if that anyone thought like that they would never be able to achieve what they're capable of. Because they would be living scared. And not to say fear and anxiety are the same thing, but they're related when it comes to racing in particular. And so doing that is key. And how do you do that? You talk about it, you open up. This could be with a therapist like I did after western states. It could be with friends. And usually what you find is that any anxiety you bring into the light loses some of its power because you're just like, look, everybody else feels this shit too. And once you talk about it, you're like, look, we're all moving forward in the face of a dark, scary abyss. And if you're moving forward at all, good job. And that anxiety you feel is shared by basically everybody who's thinking about it at all.

[Megan]

And it's shared by me too. So here's my verbalization of what my body brain is going through is we have Leo in daycare. He goes to daycare three days a week. We're stepping him up to five days a week in September, and we're starting Ollie. And so at this time we're also like, I'm thinking about what just exciting big, like September and October races. And I'm already scared of that. Of like two kids in daycare, two young kids in daycare. And what is that gonna look like to race in September and October as they have higher exposures? And so, like, how do I get rid of that?

[David]

Well, I think the best way is I licked the moving walkway before we kiss. That way we get it a little bit earlier that.

[Megan]

Okay, perfect. Okay.

[David]

Yeah. No, I mean, I think for you it's different because this has been tied to your heart in the past.

[Megan]

And that's why that's. It's part of what's so tricky is I think I actually raced quad dipsy with a little viral cold. Like we were at a Thanksgiving celebrate. We had like a lot of stuff that week and I raised quad dipsy. Probably a little bit sick. And I wonder if that ticked off my heart. It has.

[David]

Before I went in tug first to the turkey cavity.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[David]

When it. Before it was cooked, I was just like, practice makes perfect. Sorry for people that stuck around for

[Megan]

the audio on that is.

[David]

I'm pretty sure all the western states listeners dropped off by that point, so I decided it was worth it. Yeah, no, I think you just gotta talk about it and understand that you're healthy and life is. Cannot be lived in a bubble, you know? And I think one thing that's really cool about racing at all is that you're stepping Outside of any bubble of security, security, everybody that toes a line, no matter what your goal is, you're going into an area of vulnerability. And there are so many parallels of vulnerability with health, with work, with life and death, with children, with everything. And vulnerability is a practice trait. And being comfortable in that space of uncertainty is key. And that's why I always celebrate the people that tend take 10% shots because they are getting very, very comfortable with that in a way that unites all champions, but also just unites people that have been through dark forests because dark forests are full of. On vulnerability. So I see parallels between someone like Hans going forward or any of those athletes we've talked about, including the people that won and people that go through a lot of deep, dark shit in life. And usually there's a reason that all those people that achieve a lot, especially in ultra running, have gone through deep, dark shit in their lives. Not because that pushes them to ultras, but because that's the same thing you're calling on to step into the unknown during the race.

[Megan]

I think the thing that I have such a hard time with is say I'm racing Javelina 100 in October, which I don't think I am. I don't think my heart is ready to step up to 100, 100 yet. But like, you know, you invest an entire training block in that. You invest the, like plane flights to get there. You invest the Airbnb and then you get a cold and you're supposed to run 100 miles. Like, you know, what do you do about that?

[David]

I've never seen a hearse with a trailer hitch. The old country song.

[Megan]

I mean, have you seen a hearse with a bad cold?

[David]

Yeah, I mean it sucks and. But like, you know, try not. There's no such thing as a sunk cost when you're putting your health first, you know. Yeah. And. And just let the bad things happen when they happen, rather than having them happen twice. Once when you're worried about it and once when they happen.

[Megan]

True. And it is, it can be a long term worry that sits on your mind. And I agree. Right out the window.

[David]

This comes from an anxiety boy. And I always come back to that.

[Megan]

You actually have remarkably little anxiety related to this topic.

[David]

Yeah, because my parents raised me to just be in the muck, to go into the pit toilet, you know, or whatever. Like I. You were talking about that last night that, you know, why did you never get sick, David? Probably because of what your parents did when you were young. These are. My parents were watching Ollie Leo came with us, but they were watching our little 18 month old. And you know, that's true. I never missed a day of school ever for sickness when I was in elementary school, middle school, or high school until my senior year when I didn't get sick, I just didn't go to school. But that is probably partially genetic, just luck. And part of it is probably my upbringing. So my parents did not sow the seeds of that anxiety in me. Whereas for you it's a lot different. For a lot of people, it's a lot different. But I had other versions of anxiety that we've talked about on the podcast that are similarly grounded in my childhood. And my guess is this athlete could find this in their childhood if they went back in time like this anxiety is almost certainly connected to how they were told to wash their hands when they were four years old or whatever. And it magnified over time. So also, give your inner child a hug. That's why real therapy is the most important thing of all.

[Megan]

Actually, it's true. You're not afraid of neurovirus, you're afraid of death.

[David]

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm afraid of death. I think I just think about it.

[Megan]

Yeah, you think about it a lot.

[David]

I mean, yeah, I think everybody should, right? Why aren't we thinking about it all the time?

[Megan]

I'm thinking about neurovirus. We're thinking about death.

[David]

Are you?

[Megan]

Do you think about death? Oh, yeah, yeah, quite a bit. But I honestly probably think about neurovirus more interesting. This is the life of a mom.

[David]

Yeah. Huh. I don't understand that.

[Megan]

Yeah, that's weird. I know. And that's why I'm saying this is like. That's a little crazy.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just another vote. Everybody think about death right now.

[Megan]

Think about it hard.

[David]

Think about it hard as you make commentary on other people's races and just know, like, who's actually living with their time. Here we get one wild and precious life, as Mary Oliver said. And like, going for it is where it's fucking at. But like our book, which I got mentioned, actually someone brought a book to

[Megan]

sign at Spend a minute.

[David]

Yeah, it's really cool, actually. Another interesting story. A Spanish listener, maybe to the podcast, I'm not sure, actually. But a Spanish writer brought their book which looked amazing. And it was a history of running training theory that had all of my coaching idols, like, you know, Jack Daniels, you know, Canova, all these people listed. The last chapter was roach. How amazing is that? And so I signed it for Him. Isn't that fun?

[Megan]

That's crazy.

[David]

That's crazy.

[Megan]

Crazy.

[David]

But they had, you know, me sign the Happy Runner, the book that came out forever ago. And hey, if you want to. Intro to Training Theory, that's actually a good, good place to start. But the first half of the book is not about training Theory, is about other stuff. And I would never ever read it again. And it would. It gives me extreme anxiety to know it's out there. But the first line is, every runner has the same finish line.

[Megan]

Neuroverse.

[David]

You. Killian's shit. No, every same finish line. Death. And that was the whole impetus of writing the book, is that line. I wanted to start a book like that as a true joke, but also as a very serious comment that, like, understanding that reflection as a starting point, I think is the best way to live life as an athlete and live life as a person. And, you know, Memento Mori, but applied specifically through the actions you do. So, yeah, Memento Mori. It, we ball it, we ball it, we shimmer. Yeah, seriously, get the nose ring. Whatever the thing is, get it. Quit your job, I don't care. Do the thing that is motivated by. By an understanding of impermanence and whatever that thing is. Like, yes, it might not be the objectively right decision long term, but it does not matter anyway. So give yourself a chance to go out in a blaze of glory or at least not have an untold story if that's how you want to live your life.

[Megan]

Go out in the pit toilet.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, you can tell Western states always makes me quite existential.

[Megan]

I like it because there's a lot

[David]

of good stories, right? Including usually it's for athletes we coach, right? Like sometimes there's tough stories. There's always tough stories, stories. And I feel so hard for those athletes. Like when we were listing off those DNFs, or other athletes that just didn't reach the day they wanted, which is most people, right? Like, even the people that had breakthrough days, they wanted more. You know, you. You think about podium when you're going for it out there. It's like when you think about what they're going through or the athletes that didn't make cutoff, you know, or the athletes who wanted 20 hours and did 22 or 24 or whatever. It's just life in a day for a reason. And life in a day means it's dark forests as much as it's bright times. And those dark forests are what it's all about.

[Megan]

I actually watched Jim dnf, so he Came in and he went back to a chair back off a Forest hill and it reminded me so much of your DNF and brought me back and it's like to know what Jim is going through. Jim is probably going through one of the hardest things in ultrarunning right now. And to think about that, it's like he had a lot on him and to see him make that choice and decision brought me back to Forest Hill as year.

[David]

How did that make you feel?

[Megan]

I mean I was so. I mean it's like, you know, I've been there for Jim. I've been there like, you know, I've been in Jim's positions in terms of dnfing races, but I've also been there. I know I haven't been there for Jim.

[David]

If only.

[Megan]

That'd be so fun. But I felt like I was there for Jim. But I think like, you know, you think about all that goes into that and you know, all the weight of expectations and that's a lot on Jim and you know he's gonna be out here hopefully next year crushing in the same way but. But he also might not be either. And I think he's probably feeling age in these existential questions too. Like I'm sure he thinks about it.

[David]

The way age strikes is not that you fade away. Usually it'd be luck to fade away. It'd be glorious to fade away. It's usually you just get injured a little bit more. Your body doesn't recover just quite as well. That's how every other sport works. What is so magical about athletes like LeBron and Tom Brady is they have this longevity of avoiding injury. And you know that obviously anybody who understands human physiology, it immediately brings to mind like the cycling power passport questions of doping when someone doesn't age, you know, like in terms of injury. But you look at Jimmy, you look at Killian, you look at me, you know, it's just part of the process. And Katie shied granted. She's young, right? Yeah, I probably shouldn't have mentioned her.

[Megan]

She's young. I actually saw her. So she was out there crewing athletes and I saw her running up the hill at Robinson Flat so I got excited about that. But she's been dealing with long term plantar stuff too and has shared it. I think she shared it really beautifully as like, you know, it's hard to share as you're actively going through. And she shared the uncertainty and the struggle openly.

[David]

She's really cool on single track pod right before I was so I got to Talk to her. And she's delightful. Yeah. And it was just a great big old family reunion out there. And honestly, Megan, do you have any footage of that dnf? Did you take any vertical videos, ideally that we might be able to sell to tmz?

[Megan]

Yeah, actually, do you what I realized I took zero footage on the day of Western States, except for a picture of you, Leo and I all in the same full bed that we slept in together. And that was it. I was so in the moment.

[David]

That's beautiful. Um, but, yeah, I mean, look, if Jim goes for it, and Jim has had these moments a million times, and that's why he's Jim. And that's the big conclusion of the episode.

[Megan]

Actually, he had those moments a lot at UTMB before he stepped up and did it. And I imagine it made. I mean, he probably wouldn't want to go through that again, but it made that victory at UTMB so much sweeter.

[David]

Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to get onto listener corner?

[Megan]

Let's do it.

[David]

Let's talk about John G. 4 first. J a n j I.com swap swap. We met with John G. Mike. Mike Bernstein, who's the head of John G. On Friday night. We had dinner with him. He is the most delightful guy. So when you support this company, know you're also supporting the best human.

[Megan]

Yeah, we went out to dinner with him, and it was almost like we have had so many social interactions, like all of them in which I loved. But there's something about Mike that is like walking into a place of peace. I was just, like, so excited to go have dinner and chat ultras with him. And he was there crewing Ryan. And Ryan's a John G. Athlete, Ryan Montgomery, who got third. And to see, like, you know, I'm just excited for John G. To be elevated in the spotlight through Ryan also

[David]

shows they have amazing gear for high performance. You know, the athlete with the biggest breakthrough of the day. I would vote also wearing this gear, so that's great. But also talking to Mike and being really close to him, he genuinely cares about the community. That's the main goal that he has with how. Who he sponsors, how they navigate this space, how people feel, feel. It is not a business proposition for this company. It is genuinely. That's why they do it. And in fact, with the SWAT podcast, I wanted to reflect on this. When John G. Reached out, when Mike reached out personally to us, we rejected Janji because we just don't take on sponsors. And he messaged us, like 15 times in a row in Just a kind way of like, look, I believe in you and I believe in this community. Let's do something together. And eventually I'm like, man, this guy is so genuine. I have to like, return his email. And, you know, it was the best decision we made.

[Megan]

And actually, candidly, like, I didn't know much about John G. At the time. And then I started wearing their clothing and I was like, oh, yeah, okay,

[David]

so what do you got to promote

[Megan]

the long bra, which I'm wearing now?

[David]

Long bra, incredible.

[Megan]

I put my phone. I have to wear this bra for every run because I put my phone in the back. I used to carry my phones on my phone on runs. Like a noob, like holding it in my hand. And now it's just so nice to pop it in the back of my bra.

[David]

Our D short that I'm wearing, you can put your phone phone in the waist belt. I think it's selling out after we talked about it. So the other thing is the multi short, you literally cannot go wrong with that short. You can put your keys in there, some gels in there while just being super comfortable.

[Megan]

Actually, it was funny at dinner, Mike presented his phone to you and he was like, I have this. What was the green called? Do you remember?

[David]

I don't.

[Megan]

He's like, we're gonna bring back the green shorts for you, David. And you were like, I have a little bit of trauma in that color green.

[David]

Those green shorts got left at far still. I've not worn them since Mike.

[Megan]

I'm superstitious, you know, after this episode,

[David]

I processed some stuff while talking on and this weekend, maybe they'll come back because you know what? Fuck it. Like, I actually think the thing I'm most proud of now is everything that I did with vulnerability last year. And, you know, that'll probably be the biggest thing in my ultra legacy. It won't be Leadville or any of the glory. It's going to be. I'm maybe the most prominent failure in. In the ultra running history right now in many ways.

[Megan]

You did that yourself by putting like the DNF on YouTube. Like, you didn't have to do that. But I think it's like, I think that's actually one of the most beautiful things is like, you know, your DNF got talked about so much and you could have just quietly faded away into existence. And you're like, I'm going to talk about this. I'm going to talk about the struggle related to it, and I hope it's paved the way for DNFs. This year of like, you know, sometimes it's like it's hard but you own it.

[David]

I'm paving the way for DNFs.

[Megan]

I know. As I said that I was like, it's not a very uplifting statement.

[David]

Wear these shorts and you too will DNF the green shorts.

[Megan]

You're paving the way to own your feelings. Own. To go for it and to own it the better way. You should do the sound that you made for the turkey.

[David]

What sound for the turkey?

[Megan]

Remember the. The.

[David]

What are you talking about when you

[Megan]

were going deep in the turkey.

[David]

Oh, no, I'm not. I'm not subject to listeners to that one again. So go to john g.com swap. Hope you like that one, John G. Okay, on to listener corner. Here's the one that we just mentioned, actually. Takeaway. There's something so beautiful about the communal pre race port. Porta potties just in there taking nervous poops with all your soon to be best racing friends. A unique and bonding experience. I thought of this at the start line and it made me laugh out loud.

[Megan]

This does make me laugh out loud, actually. Well, you know when you're like in there and it makes a sound. Does it go in and you're just like that just emanated through like five different porta potties. We are all connected.

[David]

Oh.

[Megan]

You know, like, like the plop is

[David]

like the plop of oneness.

[Megan]

Yeah, the plop. How we're all heading into the abyss, man.

[David]

Yeah, the. Yeah, I. You know, the other line I thought of. So I was going to try to connect that back to a Bible verse, the pop of oneness.

[Megan]

And I decided it's definitely John 16. 4.

[David]

Yeah, I don't want to be sacrilegious. You can do that. Was there. But for the grace of God go I. So I wrote a big pre race thing on Patreon. Hey. If you're interested. It got. It was all about tips. Not about racing or anything but just I had a little bit of time root 20 tips and I was doing a stream of consciousness. So it went into kind of the existential stuff, just about life. And I was thinking about that line there. But for the grace of God go I. Because I think it's one of the most beautiful lines ever stated because I think often we almost think that I've been talking a lot about people criticizing or people from the outside or whatever and that's just the nature of sport.

[Megan]

Sports.

[David]

But in that context, so much compassion for anybody with differing opinions on anything because if any of us were in the same shoes as someone we disagree with, we would almost certainly be coming to the same conclusions they are, though that's subject to ethical and philosophical debate. But I think about that all the time because so much of where we've gotten is just by the grace of God, good and bad. And I think that's also a warning. Warm hug as you navigate big, scary things, you know, because, like, I don't know, everybody's in it together.

[Megan]

Yeah. And I think to bring it back to, like, this is kind of cheesy, man, but love, like, I think as I. I look back and 15 years ago, like, met you, and you have made me so much kinder. Like, infinitely kinder.

[David]

No, man, you were so kind.

[Megan]

I mean, I don't know. I was a little bit of a cut bitches girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still kind of am. But, like, I still. I have, like, 100% more kind of kindness. And that's like, you know, thinking about the people that you're surrounded by and how that impacts decision making and thoughts and feelings. And I just got lucky.

[David]

Oh, man. Ever since you got this nose ring, I feel the same way. We love you all. It came back.

[Megan]

It came back. You did it. I love you so much more now.

[David]

I love you, Megan.