318. Our Surprising Take on Carb Loading, Why Even 10 Minutes Counts, Exogenous Lactate Supplementation, and Cross Training Science!

Summary

Some Work, All Play – Episode 318 Summary

Date: July 7, 2026
Hosts: David Roche & Megan Roche
Theme: Cutting-edge science, practical training talk, and lots of joyful, hilarious banter—topics include carb loading, why even 10 minutes of exercise matters, exogenous lactate supplementation, cross training science, and much more.

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Overview

This episode blends science, listener questions, and the signature warmth, transparency, and humor David and Megan bring each week. The central focus is on new research and debate about carb loading, the promise and concerns about lactate gels, and why cross training may be as effective as pure run volume. The pair also discuss multiomic "switches" in exercise, practical fueling approaches, and sprinkle in personal stories and relationship laughs. If you're an athlete, coach, or a fan of actionable, loving advice, this episode is a gem.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. "Side Short Pee": The Art and Science of Quick Stops

[00:01–03:15]

• Megan shares her well-practiced method for peeing off the bike or trail: “Just move your shorts to the side and let it rip. See what happens.” ([03:12])
• This sparked an outpouring of admiration (and questions) among women athletes—tutorial offered as a Patreon incentive.
• David likens Megan's skill to "Michael Jordan of side short pee" ([03:00]), and they joke about tutorials and the growing legend.

Notable Quote:
"Move the shorts to the side and let it rip. The new tagline of the SWAP podcast." – Megan ([03:15])

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2. Rapid News: Tour de France Arm Cooling, Science in Action

[10:59–15:55]

• Observations from Tour de France: Team INEOS riders using "arm cooling" (forearms in Tupperwares of ice) prior to time trial.
• Discussion of hand/arm cooling research: initial skepticism, but mounting evidence suggests cooling can speed recovery and reduce post-exercise lactate.
• Application to running: practical barriers and ideas for “ice bandanas” or cooling sleeves, especially in hot weather, to optimize performance and recovery.

Notable Quotes:
“There’s a 2012 study out of Stanford that found hand cooling was a really efficient way to reduce core body temp. ... I was super skeptical… But a lot of studies have come since.” – David ([11:51])
“Maybe there's a place for just having a Tupperware… or maybe even just rinsing off in a slightly cool shower.” ([12:56])

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3. Exogenous Lactate: The New (and Controversial) Frontier

[15:55–22:33]

• Context: “Lactate gels” gaining attention after rumors of their use in sub-2 hour marathon attempts and cycling.
• Megan describes existential discomfort: innovative, but signals a shift toward pay-to-play, biohacked, and potentially GI-distress-inducing supplements.
• Their field test: "It was kind of this warm hug… I actually felt a little sleepy after taking the gel" – Megan ([18:48]).
• Science overview: Lactate is both a fuel and a fatigue buffer; ingesting it might support high intensity but raises ethical and practical questions.
• Concerns about GI side effects, unclear long-term effects, and barriers to broad access.
• Real-world intrigue: A Tour de France team reportedly bought up the global supply for exclusivity.

Notable Quotes:
“I felt existentially sad when I heard about this… this feels so direct… It feels like it’s evolving into a pay-to-play landscape.” – Megan ([18:10])
“Exogenous lactate is the new frontier, according to these labs… and it makes me feel a little bit weird, actually.” – David ([17:27])

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4. Cross Training: Revolutionary or Redundant?

[22:33–36:20]

• Review of a major new meta-analysis: cycling and running yield statistically equivalent improvements in VO₂max and time trial performance, even in running-specific events, over at least 4 weeks ([23:59]).
• In practice, cross training expands the volume/quality potential for those unable to run huge miles—examples of world-class athletes (e.g., Parker Valby, Ali Ostrander, Mason Copy) succeeding with regular cross-training days.
• Hypothesis: the “lactate sink” – non-running muscles help process lactate, improving endurance and limiting fatigue ([32:13]).
• Longer term, “cycling is liberating”—especially for older athletes, bone density risk, injuries, or those with limited run recoverability.
• Parallel benefits for cyclists who add running.

Notable Quotes:
“No statistically significant differences between running only and cycling interventions for any outcome.” – David ([23:59])
“Cross training is liberating. And it doesn’t have to be cycling. It can be stairmill, elliptical… Anything that floats your boat is great.” – David ([36:20])

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5. The Science of Carb Loading: A Nuanced Take

[38:46–48:35]

• Hosts discuss two contrasting studies:
  • Review study: Most carb loading research is unblinded and doesn’t reflect real practice, especially regarding race-day and pre-competition fueling.
  • Real world study: At Ironman Worlds, only 26% of female athletes hit “carb loading guidelines”; higher carb correlated with faster times, but high fiber intake predicted GI distress.
• Conclusion: There isn’t universal support for rigid carb loading. Instead, “satisfaction bomb” meals and unforced patterns (like burgers/fries or familiar, enjoyable foods) may be best.
• Liquid calories (e.g., Tailwind Recovery) can be a “gentle” way to carb load without GI distress.
• Individual experimentation is key; overthinking and rigid counting tends to backfire.

Notable Quotes:
“Eat satisfaction bombs. Don’t overthink it. Have enough carbs… but don’t try to do convoluted, complicated things.” – David ([40:11])
“If you have a bad race without [a carb load], do a legit carbo. But in practice, I just like athletes to do big meals… plus some liquid calories.” – David ([47:19])

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6. Multiomic Switches & The Magic of “10 Minutes”

[48:35–56:33]

• Recap of an enormous “multi-omics” consortium study (Ashley lab): even 10 minutes of exercise triggers meaningful changes at the molecular level—in proteins, genes, metabolites, etc.
• "Flipping switches" = activating countless biological processes—most happen in short workouts.
• Big-picture: Progress and adaptation arise from repeated “switch-flipping” over months and years.
• Epigenetics: Twin studies show active and inactive twins diverge not just in fitness, but in deep biology, muscle fiber type, and more.
• Takeaway: Every session counts, consistency trumps perfection, and small habits are mighty.

Notable Quotes:
“If you exercise at all, you’re flipping switches… and the goal is to just keep flipping those switches over and over.” – David ([49:07])
“Give yourself five or ten minutes. Because that type of stimulus will cause changes that are outsized in their benefits.” – David ([49:49])

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7. Q&A Highlights

[58:33–end] (Selected)

• Bone Density ([58:33]): DEXA bone scans often show low lumbar values in runners; changes are possible with high-carb fueling, weight training, and adequate vitamin D/calcium—hosts have seen real athletes move from severely low to healthy bone scans.
• Vomiting Phobia & Fueling ([63:43]): Megan shares her own journey overcoming emetophobia, including exposure therapy; compassion and incremental exposure (via therapy or practice) are key.
• Warm-ups for Short Races ([72:04]): 15–20 minutes light jog, finishing with a short steady segment and a few strides to prime the system, is best for 5Ks/10Ks. For ultras, even 5 minutes helps.
• Fueling on Quality Long Runs ([74:17]): If feeling “depleted” in races despite high carbs, possibly make long runs higher quality (not just higher carb).
• Burgers & Fries as Pre-Race Ritual ([78:04]): If it’s what works for you, don’t overthink it—train your gut with what you intend to use, focus on “satisfaction bombs,” and abandon a one-size-fits-all mentality.
• On Scientific Writing ([85:00]): True “good writing” is voice-driven, not mere formula; writers should “get weird” and let authenticity shine.

Notable Quotes:
“Try to still let yourself shine in little fun Easter egg style ways.” (On scientific writing) – David ([85:33])
"If you're out there and you've been smashed down into the middle ... get fucking weird and see what happens." – David ([89:27])

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8. Listener Corner: Living Authentically

[92:29 – 94:50]

• Heartfelt message from a listener embracing their authentic self in their 50s after a lifetime of hiding: “Thank you for helping me get to know my real self, which has always been fem/queer… Goodness gracious, I’m not the same person. Thanks for coaching more than running.”
• David & Megan uplift all forms of self-expression, emphasizing that embracing one’s identity—whatever it is—makes the world better.

Notable Quote:
“…the most fun thing in the world is just expressing yourself and knowing that on the other side of that, there are going to be people out there that are like, yes, we see you.” – David ([94:00])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On side short pee: “Move the shorts to the side and let it rip.” ([03:15])
• On lactate gels: “I felt existentially sad when I heard about this…” – Megan ([18:10])
• On cross training: “Cross training is liberating. It doesn’t have to be cycling. It can be stairmill, elliptical. Anything that floats your boat is great.” – David ([36:20])
• On carb loading: “Eat satisfaction bombs. Don’t overthink it.” – David ([40:11])
• On tiny habits: “If you exercise at all, you’re flipping switches… and the goal is to just keep flipping those switches.” – David ([49:07])
• On voice in writing: "Get fucking weird and see what happens." – David ([89:27])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start Time | |-----------------------------------------|------------| | Side Short Pee & Bike Ride Stories | 00:00 | | Tour de France Arm Cooling Science | 10:59 | | Exogenous Lactate Gels | 15:55 | | Cross Training Research | 22:33 | | Carb Loading—Studies & Real World | 38:46 | | Multiomics & The 10-Minute Rule | 48:35 | | Bone Density, Vomit Phobia, Fuel Q&A | 58:33 | | Warm-ups & Long Run Fueling | 72:04 | | Satisfaction Bombs Pre-Race | 78:04 | | Scientific Writing & Voice | 85:00 | | Listener Corner: Living Authentically | 92:29 |

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Tone & Language

• Joyful, super-enthusiastic, deeply supportive, and sometimes laughingly self-deprecating.
• Both hosts blend technical insight (studies, mechanisms) with real-life athlete stories and delightful, unfiltered honesty about their lives.
• Always circles back to self-acceptance, practicing what works for you, and finding joy in the process.

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Final Takeaways

• Trust your lived experience: Whether it’s fueling, training, or identity, the best results come from listening to and supporting your unique needs.
• Cross training is powerful: It can match running for aerobic gains, opens doors for more athletes, and is both science- and “real world”-approved.
• Science is evolving: From carb loading to lactate gels, the “truth” is nuanced and should be tested in your own body and context.
• Even 10 minutes of exercise truly counts: Flipping biological “switches” adds up to big change over years—just keep showing up.
• Love and self-expression matter: Whether it’s the perfect pre-race meal, learning to pee efficiently on the go, or embracing your true self, do what feels authentic to you—and find your support tribe.

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Episode in One Line

Energetic, hilarious, and heart-filled, this episode arms you with the latest science, debunks dogma, and reminds you—with evidence and stories—that showing up and being yourself (both on the run and in life) is what matters most.

Transcript

[A]

Woohoo.

[B]

Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy with you today.

[A]

Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday and it's Pea Girl summer on this Tuesday.

[B]

Pee Girl summer. Isn't it Pea girl every season for you?

[A]

No, you gotta be wearing shorts.

[B]

Ah, okay, okay, okay. But I mean, even when you're wearing long pants, you just let it fly.

[A]

I do, but it's only the side short pee when you're wearing shorts.

[B]

True. Okay. I see.

[A]

Hard to pull it off in tights.

[B]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. You did something that was so special this weekend, which is we're on a bike ride. We're on peak to peak highway outside Nederland, Colorado. Very, very busy highway. There are motorcycles that go 600 miles an hour around every turn. It's a little bit harrowing. And so we get to the top of the first climb and I have to pee because I'm a hydrated boy. I can't hold it. And so I pull over to the side and it takes me like 30 seconds to do the whole thing and get down on one knee. I look over, you're just peeing on the road out the side of your shorts. And so I needed to tell the world this side short pee is the most remarkable thing I've ever seen. This is Einstein in the patent office picking up the special theory of relativity.

[A]

Well, I don't know about Einstein, because I'm just a little bit more comfortable maybe than the rest of the population. It's getting pee on myself. That's part of it.

[B]

Okay. How often do you think you get pee on yourself?

[A]

Not that often. Like maybe one in ten times.

[B]

One in ten? Yeah, that's your standard ten.

[A]

Ten's pretty good. I guess that is kind of high when you think about it, but I'm cool with it. But I did it on Sunday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had one foot clipped in on the bike and was doing the side short page. Just move those bike shorts to the side. And it's a little like higher degree of difficulty than run shorts. Yeah.

[B]

It's remarkable what you do. So I posted a video of the tail end of this. You didn't know I was taking the video on Strava. So yes, I did post a p video of my wife on Strava. I realized as I'm saying that perhaps that's a little too far.

[A]

You should have saved it for Patreon. We got to get some money for that, honey.

[B]

But realistically, what I want to post on Patreon is a Tutorial because there were so many women in the comments saying, she is our queen. How does she do this? And I've seen you do this now for almost 20 years since we met. Where you will do this, I should repeat at start lines, sides of roads. It looks so innocuous. You can't really tell what's going on. And you, you do it. It's just exquisite. It is Nobel prize worthy.

[A]

I don't know about that. I think I'm just very comfortable getting pee on myself.

[B]

So what's the tutorial? How do you do it?

[A]

You just move your shorts to the side and you just hope for the best. I think you do get better. Like, I feel like my aim has gotten slightly better in time and it's, you know, 10% feels decent to me.

[B]

Do you do exercises?

[A]

No.

[B]

Do you have some unique physiology that I'm unaware of?

[A]

I mean, you should be aware of it. It's my pelvic floor. Uplift it, man.

[B]

I'm not surveying the population. I don't know.

[A]

You're like, this is just my standard.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So it is truly a work of art. So I actually genuinely think that on Patreon, we do a tutorial where you break it down. Like, you actually think about how you develop this skill because you've gotten better at it. That that 10% used to be 40%.

[A]

It's kind of hard to coach, though. That's the thing. It's one of those things that I've just done kind of naturally and I'm like, just pull your shorts to the side and pee.

[B]

I understand. This is like how Michael Jordan be a good coach. But Steve Kerr, who was a bad or not bad player, but like a role player, was a great coach. You're the Michael Jordan side, short P.

[A]

I don't know about that.

[B]

You're saying, do it like. Like I do.

[A]

Just move the shorts to the side and let it rip. See what happens?

[B]

Move the shorts to the side and let it rip. The new tagline of the SWAT podcast.

[A]

Well, it's so nice. You just go. I was like, literally just barely off the shoulder of the road and you were all the way in the bushes and trees. I'm like, come on, man, let it rip.

[B]

I don't know. A girl's gotta have secrets over here. We have the best episode for you today. A quick roadmap. We're going to talk briefly about arm cooling from the Tour de France, then lactate gels. A big review study on cross training and running car bloating. Studies multi omic responses to exercise.

[A]

You actually sent this to me while I was exercising and I was like, I think this is a study. I think I know where this study's coming from.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah. You seem to have some background here. I was pretty much confused by it. But it also was very exciting for people that just want to get into exercise and encourage you to do like 10 minutes at a time. It doesn't take much to cause, like, epigenetic signaling to really ramp up in the human body. And it's kind of wild.

[A]

It's kind of a warm hug seeing those findings of, like, getting out there and doing exercise, what's happening on a molecular level across multiple systems. And it's kind of cool when you think about it.

[B]

So cool. And then questions on bone building, phobias, warmups, cooling and more.

[A]

Okay, I'm excited for this. Especially the lactate gels. Yeah, we tried them this weekend and it was. It was interesting.

[B]

Yeah. We're going to report back from the field with the new frontier of fueling. But before we do that, a quick promo for the feed. Go to the feed.com swap swap. 40% off your first order. And right now are the Tour de France deals. The feed is all about the Tour de France. This is actually how I became aware of them back before they were this bigger company when they advertised on the tour. So you're going to get the craziest deals ever right now. So go to that link and see what is available.

[A]

They also have animal bottles going on right now. So Leo this weekend gave me my first compliment ever. He's like, mom, I like your water bottle. And I was like, thanks, Leo. It was cute. It was pink. I think he respected that game. Y and then he's like, where did you get it? And I was like, you're giving me an ad for the feed man?

[B]

Yeah, he knows where his bread is buttered for sure. Okay, so first thing we want to promo are enervit gels. They are probably going to sell out soon because the deals are pretty crazy. So check out the mango gels. The mango enervet gel is the best tasting one on the market. Or the cola gel, which has 100 milligrams of caffeine and is just so good.

[A]

I kind of like the lime one. It has some tastes of wintergreen in it, too. A little bit of like 10% of going to the dentist, but I enjoy it.

[B]

This is the worst ad I've ever seen.

[A]

Okay, but why are enervet gels so

[B]

tasty why have they cracked the code in every other company? Way behind.

[A]

We were scraping the bottle of the barrel, the bottom of the barrel of gels this weekend of just like the last gels left in our stash. And I found one shining enervit amongst those and I was like, thank God it was so tasty.

[B]

Yeah, they are the Einstein of gels. They just are. Crack the code way before anybody else. And next up is the Feed Lab Whey protein. This chocolate whey protein, we ended up getting six bags of it because I like to do two scoops a day. I struggle to get enough protein in my diet just for, for my particular needs. I don't know if my protein needs are higher than most because I used to play football and I took so many protein shakes back then. But the study we talked about last year found that athletes need way more protein than previously thought. 1.8 to 2.2 grams per kg per day was what the study found based on this new method. And the Feed Lab Chocolate whey protein just mixes so easily. It's more like a hydration drink than a sludgy protein drink. So I just do it right after training and it helps me balance that equation.

[A]

Yeah, you've bumped up your protein as you've been trying to heal your foot here. What is your general target per day?

[B]

I don't think about it too much.

[A]

You're doing some rough math over there. But give me your rough math.

[B]

120 to 140 grams. Plus it helps healing but also just helps me feel good. Otherwise I just start to feel creaky. So if you're out there and you feel creaky, especially if you're like a vegetarian athlete or something like that, consider bumping up your protein. I love the mid afternoon protein shake. Like a 3pm protein shake between lunch and dinner always makes me feel good.

[A]

Okay. My feet have been feeling creaky. This is my grip. Maybe it's because I've been running like progressively earlier. I've been running at like 5:30 in the morning and I get out and my feet are so sore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So maybe I need to get on that protein train. Just channel some of it down to my feet.

[B]

I swear by it. The protein goes straight to the feet. It's the gut foot connection.

[A]

I really need it.

[B]

And the final thing is a message about why we talk about this so much. From a listener, not a question, but just exciting to me. Lol. I just got back from my long run for the week with just over 100 grams of carbs per hour. And I feel like a million bucks. Thanks for all you do in pushing us to be strong athletes. So, yeah, we sometimes get pushback on how much we talk about carbs. People saying, oh, you're just sponsored by the feed. But as a reminder, the only reason we are sponsored by the feed is because high carb allowed us to become, like, slightly more prominent athletes in the first place. Before that, before high carb, I was just a pumpkin.

[A]

Okay, you did the most amazing video on Strava this week of all of your gels, which are just hanging out on the pain cave floor set to. Was it. Is it Freakalique?

[B]

Yeah, Freakalik. Freakal. Boom. Petey Pablo.

[A]

I knew Petey Pablo.

[B]

If you have not listened to Freakalique, go listen to Freaka Leak by Petey Pablo right now, and your life is going to change.

[A]

Yeah. You were just tossing the gels on the floor and you're like, this is Sharon, this is Shannon.

[B]

Yeah. So in that song, Petey Pablo names off all the humans that he has, I don't know, shook hands with or

[A]

something, evaluated their pelvic floors.

[B]

It's true. It's true. He has a much better survey of the population. We could get him to be, like, the gynecologist that gives an understanding of side short peeing. Like, he could be the first author on that paper.

[A]

He could do the assessments. Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I posted a video on that and actually got some really interesting comments. Should I bring that phone out?

[A]

You should grab your phone. Go find it over there.

[B]

Yeah, my big old cracked phone. Speaking of phones, what happened to your phone this weekend?

[A]

Oh, my goodness. My phone took a dive in the hot tub for 35 minutes and I was like, oh, it's going to come back to life. And it did, briefly. And now it is. So did.

[B]

Okay, I just got to go through. I've had some good Strava titles recently. Uh, the bike with you was the Megan Express makes one stop, and that's Peeville. And then I posted the video of you peeing, which, the more I think about it, the more that is pretty

[A]

messed up to post a video of me peeing. I mean, you can't see anything. I consented. You got like, 20 comments on it.

[B]

Yeah, people were really respecting it today was shaving your legs improves VO2 max by 10%.

[A]

It really does. Also, I feel like leaving the hair on the floor gives you an extra 3% for sure.

[B]

Yeah, the hair drawer was full.

[A]

Actually, the hair drawer was empty.

[B]

It was pretty empty.

[A]

Has someone Been. Have you been cleaning it?

[B]

Oh, certainly not. I think our new cleaner, who's amazing, I think she probably found my secret

[A]

hair drawer and started cleaning it and didn't tell us. That's a sign of a really good person.

[B]

Yeah, the real ones know, then I feel sorry for people younger than 35 because they never, may never know the joy of listening to Space Jam while playing goldeneye.

[A]

Yeah, I never knew that.

[B]

All of our younger listeners are like, what the hell is he talking about? Okay. Oh, this is a serious one. Talent develops in quiet character in the

[A]

stream of life that comes from the Rafa documentary.

[B]

Yeah, it's a quote from some poet. Gotha. I don't. I think that's how you pronounce it. And then here's the video with the gels. And I'm going to get to the. The comments. Man, this is compelling podcasting.

[A]

At least you have a phone.

[B]

Oh, no, it was deleted. It was all deleted.

[A]

Someone deleted it.

[B]

Yeah, I think he deleted all of his comments.

[A]

Oh, that's so sad.

[B]

Man.

[A]

Man, you just like, you know, I was going to say you blue balls. Our audience, I don't know if I can say that, and I just did. Can I say that?

[B]

Basically, they're saying that, like, I stopped listening to your podcast because the talking about carbs is too much. And I'm like, okay, this is the only reason anybody cares. And also, it's the gateway to health. So I think it's really, really important. And hey, go to the feed dot com. All right, so now we're going to do rapid fire through some news before we get to the cross training study. First up, from the Tour de France, our favorite real world laboratory where so much interesting stuff happens is team ineos. Before the team time trial had a video of all of the riders on their time trial bikes warming up. And they do pretty intense warmups with gauze stuck up their nose. I. I don't know what was on that. Do you have any idea?

[A]

I actually didn't notice the nose gauze.

[B]

Yeah, I assume it was menthol or something like that.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

They just get going.

[A]

Or they're just like sant. Sanitizing their new nose rings. Yeah, maybe that's what it is.

[B]

That's true. Or it could be like smelling salts for all we know. Tour de France is wild, but then they have their arms up to the forearm in Tupperwares full of ice water. So this really brought the science of arm cooling to the masses.

[A]

And they were just not even cracking a smile. They were super serious with their arms in there warming up. And I love it because there's been a lot of science on hand cooling. There's been like a famous glove that was started at Stanford to think about hand cooling and dropping core body temperature. And I love that INEOS was like, nah, we're going to use Tupperware.

[B]

Yeah, seems like a good way to do it. So there's a 2012 study out of Stanford that found hand cooling was a really efficient way to reduce core body temp. I was super skeptical. I'm like, hands, I think that this is just a study that you can't blind. You can't do a blinded study when you're cooling someone's hands off. So that found something spurious. But then a lot of studies have come since one just last year found that hand cooling after exercise reduces lactate response and improves recovery. And now you're seeing team INEOS do it, which is a major science driven team. And so Megan, I think we've got to get with it that hand and arm cooling might be the new frontier.

[A]

It's just kind of tricky. How do you do it? You know, they're sitting there with Tupperware containers and we've actually talked to the glove people. But the problem is it's like, when are you going to put the gloves on? Are you going to stop for three minutes at Forest Hill in western states, put on these gloves and get back to running? And so it's just a little bit tricky how to actually execute it. Do you have an idea of how to bring it to ultra running?

[B]

Yeah, I'm going to cover my arms in Tupperware, seal it at the elbow and then run like that. Does that sound good?

[A]

Actually we could just extend an arm sleeve up to the hands and then like with a glove and then put ice within there. Yeah.

[B]

But just to be serious, I think there is a new frontier that is being explored a little bit on how to enhance recovery after hot weather runs and just elevated core temperature in general. That yes, the heat response is so important and you don't necessarily want to take an ice bath or whatever, but maybe it gets a little bit in the way of performance if you're letting yourself overheat all the time outside of structured heat training. And so maybe there's a place for just having a Tupperware or, or something like that to cool off or maybe even just rinsing off in a slightly co shower. You know, it's tricky because on one hand we talk about heat and the importance of heat. But on the other hand, if you have too much heat, you're going to forestall recovery. It's going to get worse and worse. Where does that balance lie? I just don't know.

[A]

And it's so important for performance to be colder. Like these guys are going into one of the hardest time trials of their lives. I can't imagine the nerves going through them as like, you know, thinking about stepping up and doing a five minute power output at max effort. Just the nature of these time trials and then, you know, having to stick your arms in Tupperware beforehand. It's like, that's a lot.

[B]

Yeah. I love watching the Tour de France because you see, this is where 1% differences matter. And so we're gonna keep you updated on everything that comes. And I think as we think about heat training, generally the messages we've gotten in are a lot of the times from athletes in hot climates thinking, okay, well should I just do all my workouts in heat? Is that the way to go about it? And our general response is that heat training is its own thing. You don't necessarily need to do it all the time and you certainly don't want to for workouts or anything. Instead, try to make sure for workouts and most of your runs, you're as comfortable as you can be. That can mean an ice bandana. And in fact, I think everybody should have an ice bandana to start your runs in the summer just to like be in a cooler place because you're gonna get enough heat stimulus from ambient temperatures and then you can do a little bit of passive on top of that.

[A]

I started using an ice bandana last summer when I was running after school drop off at like 9:30 in the heat of the day. And it was so helpful and helpful for getting out the door too. Like, I think it just made it a little bit easier to get going. Yeah.

[B]

The ice bandana that I saw so much at Western states was called East Peak.

[A]

Ooh, have you seen these? I have not seen these.

[B]

They don't seem to bounce very much at all. So go check out the East Peak ice band. I don't even know where they're sold.

[A]

Totally unsponsored.

[B]

Maybe they're at the feed, I'm not sure. But I saw a ton of them and in fact it was very cool. So I texted one of. One of my athletes didn't have an ice bandana somehow and I think they might have forgotten it. And I texted Lucy from Nike. And this is the athlete manager from Nike and last second, Lucy got an ice bandana for this athlete who's not associated with Nike at all. And it makes me so, like, have so much affection for Nike. It shows that how much entrails. At least Nike is moving in a direction of, you know, really supporting people because there was no reason for her to help someone and go out of her way to, like, put it at a hotel desk and things like that. It was just a really cool thing. And so this was an east peak by ice bandana. Ended up really serving them well during the day.

[A]

That athlete should have gone to trail Con. I heard people that went to trail con got came away with favors. And one athlete that I had got eight ice bandanas. Eight different ice bandanas. So it was the theme of the week.

[B]

So sweet. Okay, next up is the big story that we might have gotten sent 200 times. Something like that. Did you get sent this?

[A]

We were even tagged within the Instagram post itself. Multiple. Multiple times.

[B]

Yeah. So this is on lactate gels. We mentioned this on a podcast, I don't know, two months ago and had a big section on it, but didn't get into too many details because at that time we weren't actually allowed. We were had to know about this stuff to get sent an early option. We had to sign some things to not talk about until it was published. And we ended up, though, not trying the lactate gels until this weekend because it just made us feel uncomfortable when they weren't on the market publicly.

[A]

Ethically, it just didn't feel right to me to have early access to what is like kind of a quasi food supplement, and to take that before anyone else did. And I was like, that just doesn't make me feel good. But now they're coming out in the market and multiple companies are producing them. I had Santa Madre is coming out with a gel that's €9, so very expensive. And then this gel that we took was a different formulation from lab to field. Yeah. And so we got to try it this weekend.

[B]

And so from lab to field is by Etorvibe, who was the originator of high carb studies. So. And then he went to Solomon and has done the best work. Like, he's one of my favorite researchers in the entire space. And for him to move into this world shows that, oh, this could be interesting. But we have our misgivings still. But the reason this story came up is Yom Kolecha, who ran the sub 2 marathon. Santa Madre came out and said he was having 200 millimoles of lactate per

[A]

hour, which is a lot, actually.

[B]

That is a lot. And what lactate, lactate might do, as we've talked about before, it's a fuel source. In the past, lactate has been demonized in the sense of lactic acid. But in fact, lactate is used by the body as fuel both at easy and harder efforts. And it coincides with hydrogen ion production when it's produced by the body. Thus it does cause, or it seems like it is associated with fatigue, but in fact it's the body's way of buffering some of that. And so exogenous lactate is the new frontier, according to these labs, where if you take it in and figure out a way to deliver it via the GI system, maybe you'll get another fuel source. In fact, a preferable fuel source that will help people at high power. And that makes me feel a little bit weird, actually.

[A]

I felt existentially sad when I heard about this. I was thinking about the science and thinking about all the new things, like, we have bicarb, we have nomio. But for some reason, this feels so direct to take exogenous lactate that when I first heard about this, I was actually existentially sad for a couple of days. I was like, where is is sport going? This feels like it's not only going to be something that like athletes may have to do at the high level, but also kind of evolving into a pay to play landscape. And I don't love that. And it just like it made me existentially sad.

[B]

Yeah, same. And that's why we didn't try it till this weekend. What was your impression? We, we tried it on the bike because we ran out of other gels and it had some carbs in it, so we needed to try it. Did you notice any big difference?

[A]

Well, to start, it's actually more of a solid than a gel. It's like kind of a stretch to call it a gel. And I thought it was a gel. So I just threw that baby back and literally almost bombed on the spot because I just like straight inhaled and swallowed a solid. And that was not great. But, you know, I actually, it was kind of this warm hug. And maybe this is the bias of like, I was existentially sad about this product. And then it became a warm hug when I didn't feel anything super magical happen. Like, I actually felt a little sleepy after taking the gel. And I wonder if that's because I was at lower heart rates on the descent. Yeah. So it wasn't Totally game changing. But I need more data on it.

[B]

Yeah, we need more data and I don't know how much we're going to pursue more data. I think we might have a responsibility to pursue more data as this becomes public.

[A]

I think we do it from a coaching perspective. Yeah.

[B]

Just to inform athletes that are putting food on the table with it, especially if it becomes more common. Because in the Tour de France, for example, there's a story that was published by Velo that one team bought up the entire supply of these gels, like the initial supply, and asked for exclusivity. So they clearly believe in the science. And the question is, where does the science hit the marketing and where does that truth lie? We don't know. Right. And so, so I don't think right now it's the type of thing that I'm ever going to recommend. Especially because, you know, how do you even get your hands on it in the future? Who knows? Because one of the weird things about lactate gels, theoretically they could actually help health, especially for sedentary people. Like this could be a new frontier for 80 year olds that are bedridden and things like that. It's very strange, but we don't know where the lines of causation go. And that is always just a little bit weird to me. But, but this reminds me so much of the rumblings you heard about bicarb or Gnomeo year, a year or two before it became more common.

[A]

And I think for me too it's not about just performance on the day. Like when you think about the mechanisms and how this is working, this could actually really impact long term recovery and training response and that might be beneficial. And so I have all of these mixed feelings on it. I will say though, when I first took bicarb, I was like, that is wild. This is gonna change sport forever. And I did not have the response to this gel. Granted, I only took one.

[B]

Yeah, same, same exact feeling that I had. And the weirdest part of lactate to me is how it could be used for the brain and for the nervous system. And so because nervous system is always the fatigue resistance signal, what I can't wait to see is as people figure out who this Tour de France team is, what happens in the Tour de France, you know, if the Tour de France is the ultimate laboratory to understand what's actually happening, is there going to be one team that improves over what's expected?

[A]

Or maybe there's one team that's just vomiting on the side of the road constantly. Actually, if you Looked at, I heard. And I didn't see this, but I saw this in the Instagram post that Calecha was apparently vomiting for minutes and minutes and minutes after the marathon and taking this gel. I do question, like, what are the GI side effects of taking in lactate? And some of my sadness is like, are we going to get to the point where like GI side effects are just paying to play for sport and for high performance? And that scares me. Yeah.

[B]

That being said, you know, any new thing feels scary until it's not.

[A]

Yeah. Why am I so. I'm just like being a scared little bitch?

[B]

No, no, I. I feel the same way, especially because, like, you know, I think high carb is the most important thing. And then there's all these other scientific elements. And you know, the Tour de France is a lot different than other people, especially even like trail runners that are at the top level. So where does that line get drawn? For me right now I feel very uncomfortable. But I was never a first mover on any of these things. I was so skeptical about bicarb for years and then all of a sudden I tried it. Oh yeah? Yeah. Thankfully I didn't feel that way with this. So we'll see where it goes from here.

[A]

Yeah. I think I might get one more data point on the treadmill this week just cause I feel like we owe it to our athletes and to like, you know, the swap broader community to understand. And so I think it will be helpful when I have like a more controlled environment outside of the bike. And so we shall know.

[B]

We shall see. And we shall keep you updated. Okay, now it's time for the big study that is also a warm hug. And this is called Cross Training between Running and cycling effects on VO2 max and running performance. A systematic review and meta analysis. This looked at randomized control trials of at least four weeks. And it found seven studies comparing run only with cycling only and cycling slash running interventions. And so that's a pretty high hurdle to jump to. Say you need a randomized controlled trial of at least four weeks. And I think that that might diminish some of the results that we find solely because you're only getting a certain subset of studies and you smooth it out. But within that context, the results are pretty cool.

[A]

And the outcomes were they wanted to look at run only and cycling only interventions and how those impacted time trial across the mile, the 3K and the 5K. And then also look at VO2 max assessed on the treadmill and the bike.

[B]

Okay, so VO2 max on one hand which is kind of a raw number that might be independent of modality and then time trial. So my hypothesis just at baseline would be well, VO2 max probably stays quite similar if you're training hard in both ways because it's still aerobic. But I would assume that time trials for running just get worse if you're cycling, right?

[A]

Oh for sure. I mean have you ever spent, we've done this before coming off of injuries or other things where you spend three or four weeks cycling and then go back to do your first run and everything feels like so sludgy. You feel like you're moving in slow motion, let alone running like a mile or 3k or 5k time trial. And so I was like, absolutely, there would be a difference.

[B]

That is totally my experience this year with the foot because I've had a lot of times where I've had to bike and I feel aerobically strong. But then, man, running is difficult when you return. Um, okay, so the findings here were that VO2 max assessed on the treadmill and the cycle ergometer were the same basically. Uh, that's very, very cool. But the most shocking finding of all is that no statistically significant differences between running only and cycling in intervention were inter observed for any outcome. So cycling in other words seemed to translate directly to running, at least in these studies. And that for me is a warm hug because one, I have to bike a lot, but two, how many athletes out there can do their max out output and volume via running? It's not that many. You know, it's. That really selects for a certain type of genetic profile for younger athletes. It really limits the scope of some training interventions. But if cycling can work and thus almost any cross training intervention can work when put into a running economy frame framework. That is really, really cool because now we get a reason that athletes like Parker Valby and Ali Ostrander and now more and more athletes are doing less run volume in supplementing it with cross train.

[A]

And we're seeing that in shorter distance races. Especially we're running economy. Like you think about these athletes are racing 3Ks, they're racing 5Ks, Keely Hodgson even using it for the 800 meters and then building that on up to ultras. Like I feel like now we have a lot of real world examples of athletes using running training as a base and working in cycling a few days a week, whether it's that's as a double or you know, even as a primary day. And it's kind of nice to offload the body in that way. And I think it works.

[B]

Yeah. This brings me back to 20, 24, when we decided to try and experiment with my own training because I was going to move up to a hundred miles for the first time. And I'd done high run volume a lot when I was young. I did. I've done a lot of a hundred mile weeks, but I was just getting beat up more and more. My Megan, my feet were sore all the time.

[A]

Joe, I'm at the feet creaky point right now. What is happening?

[B]

Same age, 30.

[A]

Yeah. That's when your feet get creaky.

[B]

It's when you get creaky.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Actually. I think I might need new run. New road shoes. In all seriousness.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you run your shoes into the ground too. I think it might just be that your shoes have 600 miles and you don't know about that.

[A]

I do. I'm also wearing road shoes on trail. Shoe on trails. I feel like I'm like dancing with a devil all the time with my ankles.

[B]

You know, Would be the best sponsorship in the world.

[A]

What?

[B]

Running warehouse.

[A]

Oh, true. We could just talk. It's like the feed for shoes. Yeah, actually, we should get shoes on the feed.

[B]

Well, the problem is, like with the feed, I basically like all sources of carbs. I'm not going to discriminate too much with running warehouse. I'd be like, I hate 95% of everything you sell. It's total, especially trail shoes.

[A]

Actually, I want to try the Mach X3. But like most of my runs, I. I basically never run on a road anymore. I just run on trails and those things collect rocks. Like it's their, like, job.

[B]

For anyone out there looking for a new road shoe, the Mach X3, I have adored it. Which is in contrast to the Mach X2, which caused the back end of my Achilles to get ripped off. And we had a big review about how this shoe is defective, which I think it is.

[A]

And they actually came out relatively like. The separation between that shoe and the X3 was really quick. And I feel like they knew it. They're like, we have to replace this shoe.

[B]

I think that's a good strategy when you mutilate half the athletes that wear it.

[A]

I wonder what percentage of those athletes came back for the X3.

[B]

Yeah, it took me a while. It took me almost a year and a half. Half. And I got enough feedback from listeners that I should try it. So here's a vote for the Mach X3 for people out there. But in 2024, we decided to do an experiment where I would, quote, train like a female athlete, where there were all these, there were all these pro athletes who had modeled this approach with cross training, including some that we had coached. And you hadn't seen that many men do it yet, though there were a few. There were some inklings of it, which just meant I was going to cross train year round.

[A]

Which just meant you were going to embrace your feminine side. You already do. You're like, we just need to sprinkle some more in.

[B]

Is that a good thing?

[A]

Yeah, it's a great thing.

[B]

Great thing. Um, in fact, we got an amazing message from Patreon. It might be at the bottom of this listener corner. Oh, it is listener corner this week. So stay tuned, stay tuned, stay tuned. That's related to that. Um, and all my breakthroughs coincided with that moment when I actually dropped my run volume to 60 to 75 miles per week and did more bike training. And this study could show a mechanism there, which is maybe if we're balancing it out and not viewing things through superstition and randomized controlled trials, find that cycling and running are equivalent. I think the comp. The complication there is that basically you need to put the cycling adaptations into a running context long term. And I don't know why the studies didn't find that because cycling only shouldn't cause the same time trials. That has to be almost an error in how the studies are designed.

[A]

Did you look at the confidence intervals? Those things were wide. I think that's part of what we're seeing. And I think like, like they even mentioned this too. They were, they were quick to identify limitations is there was also like a lot of older training protocols and like mixed protocols across studies. It was only seven studies. And so I think there's limitations here, but I do think it parallels real world findings of like, if you incorporate cross training into a running framework at the same time, I think that really works. Yeah.

[B]

So the cross training tutorial is. It's always good for doubles. Instead of doing run doubles, you can throw it on. After you do some doubles, you can start to do some double workouts. To use Norwegian principles, where instead of doing two run workouts in a day, the second workout is a cross training modality. Just like it could be uphill treadmill and then finally after your workout, the day after or the day after your long run, just doing a bike that can be high Z2. If you do that instead of doing a run where you just limp around and it's not high quality, you can Get a really good aerobic stimulus that will feed right back into running. And I think especially as athletes age, this is really effective because so far in training theory I think there's been a way too narrow funnel that it's is if athletes can do really high mileage, they succeed and they go through the pointy end of the funnel and everyone's oh, that athlete's talented. But in reality, how many athletes can actually do that? I think that the funnel can be so much wider at the bottom if we use cross training in a more methodical way, particularly with young athletes.

[A]

And it's been fun for me to explore that myself because like you think about my heart context and like I just can't do high volume training. I don't think it's healthy from my heart. I don't think it's healthy even in the general like autoimmune inflammatory nature that I have. And so we've replaced for me like the back to back long run. So I do a Saturday long run now and a Sunday bike where I hold your wheel and it is like the ultimate date and it's so much fun. But I also think at the same time that's kind of like the core of where some of the training adaptations for me are coming from are those days that I'm just like fighting to hold your wheel.

[B]

Yeah. And I think some listeners, especially roadrunners, like, well, you can't be fast. Well, in this study you can poo poo in some way especially because. Because when you average this many studies together, it's really hard to find effects in anything. This is just the nature of these studies will be usually not defined too much, but what we're seeing in the real world. So Ali Ostrander is my favorite example because she cross trains a ton. But the newest one is Rachel Rudel. So started coaching Rachel Rudell last year and this year I think she's been the breakout performer on the international road scene.

[A]

Wild progression. Has she been sponsored yet?

[B]

Not yet.

[A]

Let's get her sponsored. Someone out there please. Nike. I mean she's deserving of Nike Adidas Hocus.

[B]

Yeah, I mean she's one of the best. I don't want to put anything that involves expectations on her future, but you know, everybody out there can understand with these most recent results of fastest American time ever at Boulder. Boulder followed by second place and fastest American at the BAA 10K which is incredibly international field. Like those results point to a certain thing. But every week she's doing one full cross training day. Usually after the workout, plus cross training, doubles and she's doing these biking. And I think that that world, world is not being explored that much yet. But it's so important. Oh, here's another example. Mason Copy, who just won the US Mountain Running Championships, he does one full bike day a week and sometimes two full bike days a week. And he does really long rides now he's becoming a fantastic cyclist and I think it's helped his aerobic system so much. Because what this study doesn't point out, that might even be an additional benefit of cross training is you can go really far and not break down in a way that with running you're just gonna break down so hard. If you do a four hour run or whatever all the time with cycling you can just throw that in anytime you have the space.

[A]

And they proposed a theory as to why this might work and they called it the lactate sink hypothesis, which I actually really like. I'm like this, the sound of a lactate sink. I'm like, I want that in my life.

[B]

I've never heard of the lactate sink.

[A]

Here's how they described it. It said proposed physiological mechanisms include the lactate sink hypothesis which suggests that endurance training of non running muscle groups may increase their capacity to uptake and metabolize lactate during running, thereby potentially reducing lactate accumulation and improving performance.

[B]

Very interesting.

[A]

And it's kind of fun. I mean, I think obviously there's so many different mechanisms. This is kind of just like, you know, summarizing and providing some kind of hypothesis. But I like, I like thinking about it in that way as I'm going out to bike. Yeah.

[B]

I wonder if that would also support muscular endurance type interventions for not just cross training but also strength work.

[A]

I was thinking that as well. Yeah.

[B]

Like the uphill athlete style interventions that they do and that we do with mountain legs and things. If it's a similar like process as the lactate sink. But I need to research more on that.

[A]

Actually. I feel like doing single leg step ups feels like the ultimate lactate sink as you're doing it. Yeah, it's so true. It's like that direct quad brand. You're like, this is where the lactate's going.

[B]

Yeah. I wanted to do step ups after my run today and just like, no, I don't feel like it's too much. Okay. Final thing on this topic was a cross train versus run study that just came out called immune and inflammation responses to a three day period of intensified running versus intensified cycling and the runners compared to the cyclists experienced significantly more muscle damage, more inflammation, and more delayed onset muscle soreness. And these numbers were massive. We're talking, talking like over a hundred percent on most of the variables measured. So it just points out like, running is awesome, but it does cause more breakdown. Cycling can get a really big aerobic stimulus without the breakdown. You combine the two, it becomes the perfect world not just for improving your running, but also for improving your cycling. That if cyclists add a little bit of running when they're not doing this huge professional level volume, they're usually going to improve their functional threshold power too.

[A]

Actually. That's fascinating. I ran into Alexis Scarta and I'm like the ultimate fan, goal girl of gravel cycling. And she's amazing in the gravel world. And I ran into her in Left Hand Canyon and she told me that this year one of the main things that she's trained about training is that she's actually running more.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And she's finding that it's really improving her cycling. And I think the two, like, you know, crossing both when you're focusing on either cycling or running helps a ton.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Kate Courtney has done a solid amount of running in her past and she just won the road race national championship. Wasn't that cool after winning Leadville 100 last year, after winning so many mountain bike races, including being a mountain bike

[A]

world champion, actually, I love the evolution of Kate Courtney's career. So she was, you know, focusing on World cup mountain bike races and then kind of pivoted to, you know, more of the gravel style, like lifetime fitness races, and then just started riding roads. It's been really cool to see an evolution of her career of just like changing it up and mixing it up and trying new things. And I love it.

[B]

Kate Courtney might be my favorite athlete. She's, she's great, like, of any sport. I aspire to be like her. In fact, last year she won the Leadville 100 the week before the Leadville 100 run.

[A]

And we were actually driving through town and we were like, you know, watching it on the live feed and just like, honestly, like crying her eyes out watching her finish. And I think that was a motivator. You were unsure about racing at that time and you're like, I'm going to do it. He did it.

[B]

Yeah, she messaged me and I was like, oh, this is a sign from the universe. Like if my hero was messaging me. So Fall K. Corney and even the professional road male cyclists are doing running in the off season. Sometimes they'll throw Up a single Strava file of a 10k. I saw one from Matthew Vanderpoel, where these guys are shockingly fast.

[A]

Wait, how fast did Matthew Vanderpoel run?

[B]

He's in the low 30s.

[A]

I'm pretty obsessed with Matthew Vanderpand.

[B]

I don't know if he's running super hard. Um, there's some former cyclist, I think Jimmy Whalen. I'm not sure if that's exactly his name. Oops. Shouldn't have gone for it. Who ran, I believe, a 101 half marathon.

[A]

What?

[B]

At some point. So there, there's a lot of crossover here. And basically viewing yourself in aerobic machine, I think is liberating. You don't have to think about it as miles. And in fact, that can be as low as maybe three runs a week. As. As I get into coaching more and more, I am becoming just more of a proponent of. Look, if you're limited with how much you can run, if that's bone density issues, maybe you had an eating disorder history, or maybe you're an aging athlete or whatever, it doesn't take much running to reinforce the stimulus, especially if you're doing hills, strides and cross training. If you do enough of it and you adapt to it and it stops taking so much out of you so you don't have heavy legs all the time, you're going to get so much stronger. And I think cross training is liberating. And it doesn't have to be cycling. It can be stair mill, it can be elliptical. Anything that floats your boat is great.

[A]

You know, that is a fascinating point, is the day after big rides. I often used to carry heavy legs with me and I no longer feel that anymore. And I wonder if that's like the evolution of high carb. I wonder if that's me adjusting more to this training framework or what it is. But it's really nice now. I feel like I can run pretty well the day after a big bike.

[B]

I think it's the Rick James principle.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

You're a super freak. Super freak. You see? Super freaking now. Okay, let's get on to Patreon. Uh, quick promo for patreon. Go to patreon.com swap swap. There are tons of training plans, including training plans that incorporate a ton of cross training and some that are cross training only if you're an injured runner or going through anything. Um, in addition, we have bonus episodes. We're up to 198. Last week's was an hour long.

[A]

We just started talking to each Other it was a long week. I feel like we hadn't had a lot of chances to talk to each other and just kept going.

[B]

An update for the listeners that paid attention to that episode is the people we talked about at the end are given their relationship another go.

[A]

Wait, that's so exciting.

[B]

Isn't that exciting?

[A]

That's so cool.

[B]

The best the listeners to that will know because we might have stepped in some shit as well.

[A]

We definitely stepped in shit.

[B]

That is a patreon only topic involves religion and other things. Things but you can imagine. Plus tons of articles. If you go right to the top of the page, there's a training theory glossary. So if you want to learn about this, there's like 60 articles that you can just access. Starts at $5 a month for, you know, full. Full access for $10 a month. Heart rate zones. And as always, if you can't afford it, just message not on Instagram because I don't actually check that much. Email me, which is on our website, and we'll get you in for free.

[A]

Maybe I'll do this week a side short p tutorial. I'll think a little bit more about what actually happens down there and write it out for our audience.

[B]

I like this so much. You're gonna think about what happens down there?

[A]

Yeah, I have to, like, really think about it because it's just kind of become second nature at this point. But I'll put my brain to the process.

[B]

It's like Mozart doesn't think about the piano when he's playing it. Do you think we need to do a game tape review?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, we should.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We were doing a game tape review as we were driving over, and you're like, megan, this is too much.

[B]

Not a sideshow Peeing Megan. That's way too much to talk about on the podcast. You can tell how analytical Megan is. She's like, guys, we left it all out on the field today.

[A]

It was great last night. No, it was a good game tape review. You were not into it, and I was so into it.

[B]

Look, guys, we just gave our all and, you know, we're just moving on, moving on to the next game.

[A]

What are you talking about? It was the best game ever.

[B]

I understand, but you don't want to focus on your past successes. You want to think about the future. Okay. You want to do carboding study?

[A]

Let's do it. Okay.

[B]

This was very cool because a couple carboding studies came out in the same week and they say different things. One looking at the real world One criticizing past studies. And so what a interesting opportunity to do a science breakdown.

[A]

And a science breakdown on something that we have bias on too. Like, you know, I think we've seen from our athletes and from ourselves that, like, massive carb loads sometimes don't work, especially for athletes that might be more prone to cramping or having just like, you know, races that they feel like are not adding up. And so we'll just start up bias at the start.

[B]

Okay, so for an intro, carb loading is defined usually as 8 grams of carbs per kg of body weight per day, up to 12 grams per kg per day in the days leading up to a race. That isn't like, excessive by definition, but when athletes totally change their lives to reach those levels, often we just see them underperform on race day in our small sample set. And my theory has always been, well, if you're fueling a ton in your training, you're not actually hitting that carb load depleted. Thus, when you totally change up your nutrition pattern, you could be messing with the nervous system in ways we just don't really understand. Instead of that, just eat satisfaction bomb meals. Don't overthink it. Have enough carbs. Like, add a little bit of carbs during the day. But, like, don't try to do convoluted, complicated things to get to 10 to 12 grams per kilogram.

[A]

I've seen some athletes do some wild things to get there. Just like so much rice or so much candy or, you know, really thinking about, like, you know, consuming like four or five Gatorades. And sometimes that just feels a little much. In the GI system, you've seen so much candy. Yeah, I love that.

[B]

It's like Leo, our little kid, we've gotten him to sleep in because if he waits till his noisemaker turns green, which happens at 7am he gets candy when he comes downstairs. And the candy principal has added like 90 minutes of sleep to his day. So I feel like from a health perspective, it's a good thing.

[A]

It's added like 90 minutes of work to our day too. It's been fundamentally game changing. And she's in it for the candy.

[B]

Megan, you forgot to turn on the noisemaker last night.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And then you went on an early run and Leo screams at me at 6am get me out of here. He's like, dada. Noisemaker didn't turn on last night. And basically he got off on a technicality. Still got his candy.

[A]

I was gonna say he lawyered his way to candy.

[B]

Didn't he lawyered his way to candy. Yeah, and I mean, I think that there's a balance to be struck. Like this doesn't mean not to do carbs. It just means when athletes overthink it, like if you overthink most things, it can lead down negative paths. And that leads to the first review study here called beyond belief quite question mark. Absence of double blinding and limited ecological validity in carbohydrate loading research. Uh, their argument is that most of the studies were not double blind or placebo controlled trials. And here's a quote. Of 14 identified studies, only two were double blind placebo controlled trials. Notably, only four provided carbohydrates during exercise. So essentially mid run fueling or mid exercise fueling negates some of the need for this, theoretically. And when we're not measuring that, what you're essentially seeing is like who is was just not depleted.

[A]

And also some of these studies were not measuring pre exercise carbs either, which also totally changes things as well. And so I feel like these just are just not good reflections of what athletes are doing in the real world. Like most athletes before racing are taking in carbs like through breakfast and then starting doing high carb fueling like as soon as they start exercising too.

[B]

Yeah, and the effect size was similar to placebo of nutrition studies of carb loads anyway. So again, because it's really difficult to bind to these types of studies, you might just be seeing, seeing that these athletes know that they're getting more fuel, it brings in the, the placebo response and they want to do it. So as we say that, I'm just really hesitant because I notice this really overlaps with the low carb arguments of the low carb proponents who are saying this is just a placebo effect essentially and it is not a driver. And so yeah, where does the truth lie? We don't really know.

[A]

It's also tricky when you think about confounding variables here too. Of the athletes that might be more willing to do high carb and you know, carb loads loading in the days before the race, maybe they're more dedicated to their race plan. Maybe they've been fueling their bodies better all along. And so it's also like there's so many confounding variables here in studies. That is tricky too.

[B]

Well, let's contrast it with another study that shows real world practice might differ from their conclusions. It's called from intention to execution. Pre race nutrition behaviors, influences and performance outcomes in female endurance athletes at the Ironman World Championships. Also I want to point out that the other one says beyond belief. And then the rest of the study title, this one says from intention to execution. I think this is the ChatGptification of study titles.

[A]

ChatGpt loves a colon. It loves colon. Which actually, you know what? I love a colon too. Yeah. Or an EM dash.

[B]

And they are really compelling taglines.

[A]

I've actually had to use fewer EM dashes in my writing because sometimes it looks like, you know, AI writing when you use a lot of EM dashes.

[B]

Yeah. Well, maybe we should get AI to help with some of our podcast titles. I'm really bad at podcast titles. What this one did is it took 27 women doing the Ironman World Championship Championships, and only 26% of those athletes achieved carbohydrate loading guidelines of 8 to 12 grams per kilogram. Um, and with an overall mean intake of 6.4. And higher carbohydrate intake correlated with faster finishing times, whereas fiber intake was positively associated with GI symptom severity.

[A]

And at the same time, what they did was they were assessing qualitative findings to look at how athletes were describing their racing experience, describing their carb experience. And this was relevant because of those 27 women that were competing, there was a wide range of age and background and competition level. And some athletes were taking this race very seriously. Some athletes were saying, like, quote, like, I'm just competing here for fun. And so there was a wide range of experiences. And I think that actually matters when it comes to car practice because, like, you can think about an athlete that's trying to go for a top performance, like they might be a little bit more prone to carb load, you know, based off of, like, their experience and based off their knowledge.

[B]

Yeah. So the question just the becomes, how do you reconcile this where if you look in the real world, a lot of the studies do find that the athletes who succeed are doing carb loads, or at least higher levels of carbohydrate intake. But the tricky part that the first study would argue is, well, those athletes are doing higher carb intake solely because they don't have disordered eating or concerns about their performance or performance anxiety. So they're able to eat more. So you're essentially not sure what you're measuring. And I think that's why the science of carb loading is just a little bit uncertain. Because when you find someone who carb loads, usually you're finding someone who's a little bit dialed in, who doesn't have fueling issues, generally who's going to Fuel the race day very well. And when someone is low carb in the days before lower carb, you're like, well, what other issues do you have? Are you just measuring confounders? So I don't know exactly where it lies right now. My recommendation to athletes is, okay, eat satisfaction bombs. You know, that big dinner the night before. I personally like cheeseburgers and fries because it just makes me feel evolutionary comfortable. But instead of doing a focus carb load, where you're counting, like counting is bad, Doing just liquid calories a couple times during the day, I like tailwind recovery. I think tailwind recovery is just a wonderful way to add a bunch of like, satisfying calories. Just doing one packet in the morning, one packet in the evening, which is a version of carb load. But it's not, you know, doing 8 grams or 8 grams, 8 cups of rice just to satisfy that arbitrary number.

[A]

And how do you square that with high carb fueling in racing? So, you know, you say you have an athlete that's pushing 90 to 120, or maybe even an athlete that's pushing 120 to 150 grams of carbs an hour. You know, are we thinking about higher GI effects if you do carb loading in the day before and then stack into like high, very high carb racing? Like, how do you think that interacts?

[B]

Yeah, that could be. Part of what I'm seeing is that all the athletes on counseling, including myself, are doing high carb fueling during the race. So if you start just topped off beyond belief, especially with huge breakfasts, you might not be able to do do that without just over cooking it in the first hour or two or. My biggest fear is if you do an overdone carb load and training volume drops a lot, you might increase glycogen burning early in the event beyond what it should be. So your heart rate's gonna be super jumpy. You're gonna be burning a ton. So even though it seems like you're having more on board, you might go through it faster. So, yeah, basically this is a way of saying we are unsure right now exactly where this lies. And I think think the answer is probably individual experience is where it's at. Like if you under see how your body responds to a carbo, or if you have a bad race without one, do a legit carbo. But in practice, I just like athletes to do big meals. And yes, you can do your pasta, your pizza, things like that, but not to count, not to be changing things fundamentally. Do what you do in training plus some liquid calories.

[A]

And I think protein and fat are so great too. Like, we love our pre race burger and I think there's a lot of athletes that kind of fear that because they're like, that's not carby enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But for us, that's worked so well. And it's delicious too.

[B]

And we named our second child after the burger place in Frisco, Colorado that we have pre raised burgers at.

[A]

I mean, primarily after Mary Oliver. Secondary is burger place.

[B]

No, no, I remember we were at the restaurant, we said, that's a really cool name. It's Ollie's burger place in Frisco. Hey, Ollie's, give us a free burger next time. No, they're the coolest.

[A]

You actually have an Ollie's shirt.

[B]

I do have an Ollie's shirt. Give them so much free cloud over here. But as we were there, I was like, that's a really good name. And you said yes. And then later on you're like, I love Mary Oliver. But I had never heard about Mary Oliver before that.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I'm sure she's a real person.

[A]

Okay. That was 20 weeks into pregnancy. I had named Ollie like nine weeks into pregnancy.

[B]

Nope, I actually don't think. I think Mary Oliver is AI. Wild geese. No, domesticated geese.

[A]

Domesticated geese. Definitely has a colon.

[B]

The soft apple. My body wants to love what it loves, and what it loves is burgers and. Okay, now a very quick science snack before I think questions come next. It's called multi omic. Multi tissue responses to acute exercise in sedentary adults. Findings from the Molecular Transducers of Physical activity Consortium.

[A]

And this was a massive consortium of authors and like across multiple different institutions. You actually texted this to me and I was on a run and I was like, this is definitely a Ewan Ashley paper.

[B]

Oh, is it?

[A]

And sure enough, it's a U and Ashley paper.

[B]

An amazing doctor focused on on the heart. We saw him when you were first going through heart issues and you were working within his clinic. Right. For this most recent heart issue.

[A]

We've been. Yeah, we've been a part of like different research projects together. And he is amazing, but he's done a lot of multi omics responses to exercise. It's kind of been like one of his key things. And I was like, this has to be a you and Ashley paper. And sure enough, it is.

[B]

So what I'm obsessed with here is not the specific findings, but more when we look very, very closely at human physiology and how it responds to exercise. Exercise. You start to see so many switches getting flipped. And that's basically all this study means to me is if you exercise at all, you're flipping switches. And the goal is to just keep flipping those switches over and over and over again. And there are some switches that take two hours of training, but most are 10 minutes. And that's why five or 10 minutes counts. If you're listening to this and you just have trouble getting out the door, give yourself five or 10 minutes. Because that type of stuff, stimulus will cause changes that are outsized in their benefits, most likely via these mechanisms.

[A]

I love that you summarize multiomics as switches. I greatly appreciate it from like a scientific perspective of just like, you know, multi omics is essentially measuring many different types of biological molecules. Like we're talking like proteomics and genomics and microbiomics and thinking about all the like hundreds of thousands of molecules within each of those domains. And if you think of each of those as a switch, it's like that's a lot of switches.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And we don't really understand how the switches interact and we probably never will.

[A]

I'm guessing maybe we will. I feel like AI you and Ashley like thinking about those collaborations.

[B]

I don't know. I think we won't.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we for sure won't.

[B]

But I mean, we as in current generations, in 500 years, who knows? But it's just too interdisciplinary.

[A]

Maybe not all of them, but I think we'll get to a point where it's most of them. I don't know.

[B]

I feel like these interconnects, connected evolutionary processes develop so non linearly historically, like anthropologically, you know, like zooming back thousands of years to millions of years, that the actual interactions are almost nonsensical. Where it doesn't make sense why something causes something.

[A]

It doesn't make sense why my feet are creaky at age 36.

[B]

That makes 100% of sense.

[A]

Yeah. You're like, I've been there.

[B]

If you think about what a run is, I would be creaky all the time too. The fact that the body can do any of this shit is remarkable. But I think that, that, that points out why this switch idea to me is so compelling in that, yes, running feels impossible, especially the big goals someone might have. But then you start flipping switches and eventually the body just fundamentally changes. Like, I was a football player and yes, it took a long time, but now I have a just my genetics are totally expressing differently. And I imagine that if I had stayed on that path, I would be more of a powerlifter now. And it's very cool to think about, like, how, how I've upregulated some things and downregulated others. Like I'm weak as shit now and I think I'd be weak as shit even if I started weightlifting again. I think my body's just fundamentally altered itself. And so this also gets to an argument that we made on the Patreon episode this week, which gets to like heat training or altitude training or whatever. It's that if you do these types of stimuli, it's not just a four week intervention that then changes your body. It's that if you do them long term, eventually the body changes the way it interacts with, let's say, red blood cell production or how your blood volume, volume manifests itself or whatever. And that probably has its basis in multi omics if we actually knew where the lines of causation were.

[A]

And I feel like the brain also has basics and multi omics too as it relates to heat training. I've just decided, it's like, I don't think historically I've kind of gone up and down as to whether I'm actually good in heat, but recently, and I think sometimes this has been like a medication side effect for me from like some of the autoimmune medications I've been on is like, I feel like I'm not good in heat. But I had the realization a few weeks ago that I'm like, I just have to decide I'm good in heat and go with it. And hopefully that psychological process of making that decision is maybe, maybe it's like turning on one or two switches that I need, but it feels like it's feeding forward into actual developments and I'm just going to believe in it. Yeah, that's a bunch of absolute like game tape nonsense. You know what? We're going to rock it.

[B]

I like how I say so much nonsense and I'm just like, fuck, yeah. You say something that's a little bit less nonsense and you're like, oh no, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, Dr. Ewan. I know, I get it. Like with your MD, PhD, like, there's a lot more of understanding of the world, whereas I'm just like, I can understand it at such a zoomed out view.

[A]

You're like, let's bring the game tape.

[B]

Bring the game tape. Yeah. I mean, you know, gaslighting yourself probably is a way to sometimes start these processes. It's like, well, you know, thinking you're good in heat makes you adapt a little bit better to heat. Not just in the moment because you're able to do it a little bit better, but then subsequently because we see from other sources, studies that chemical context in the brain influences how the body adapts to stimuli, it would then translate to this. Um, but similarly, what else might be grounded in this is something like belief. You know, like belief itself is probably not gonna change your performance on the day outside of like 01% or something. But how does that stack up over time to fundamentally alter physiology? Probably partially via the same mechanisms.

[A]

You know, I would argue that belief is even higher too. I mean, you're giving it 0.1%. It's like think about belief on a workout that's probably three or four.

[B]

Man, that's true. That is very true.

[A]

Coming from someone that's been low self confidence at times I'm like, that's massive.

[B]

Yeah, so a vote for 10 minutes. You know, like, we talk about a lot of complicated things because it's very fun to chat about physiology, but at the core of it, it's just doing things over and over and over again, fueling your body and trying to feel good about yourself and accept yourself. If you add that up, the way that the body and brain can change is so shocking that it doesn't make sense in any study framework outside of this one. So like every, every study looks at 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, maybe even a year. And that never can incorporate what happens like from a multi omic perspective in human physiology if you switch, flip switches long enough and so just flip them for as long as you can. And I think it doesn't just change how you perform, it changes how you age. It probably changes just overall how you conceive of your body. And at the end of that process, everyone's going to say, oh, that's talent, that they're able to do that, when in reality it's just what happens when you show up over and over and over again.

[A]

And I think it's the background too that, you know, if you have to take a break, like for me I've had to take some like massive breaks from training as I heal my heart. And you know, I do feel like each time that I come back, I get back to it a little bit quicker. And I wonder if it's, that's just like the buildup and the collection of all those switches that then it becomes easier to turn them back on. Yeah, or they're already on and I just need to like, you know, set that trajectory a little bit more. Yeah.

[B]

And you can even think about how like supplement responses or nutrition or whatever might feed forward into these types of changes.

[A]

Oh, no. I'm thinking about throwing lactate gels in there. And now I'm existentially sad again. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we just don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so the whole, the, the whole world comes down to the study. If you really understand what's happening there, like if we could truly model it out, we can't. So all we can see is what happens to humans over 20 years. And to finish this up, my favorite study ever that I bring up all the fricking time is the twin study that was done by, I think it was on multiple triathletes that were in their 40s or 50s. One or not multiple triathletes. One was an Ironman triathlete, one was a sedentary person. That they were twins that were separated. And the amount that their physiologies expressed differently totally broke every model, particularly with muscle fiber typology. So the active twin that was doing Ironmans had I think 55% more expression of type 1 slow twitch model muscle fibers, which was totally contrary to what the science said at the time could happen that essentially there was more of a genetic component than that. But clearly there is an epigenetic component to everything. And what we think are genetics are so much more environment than we give it credit for and behavior. So every time I hear about that twin study and I have trouble getting out the door, I'm just like, all right, today I just want to be the active twin a little bit. And if it's only a little bit, that's okay.

[A]

Well, follow up to that study is we went to a Western states research presentation, I think a year or two ago and the inactive twin began. Became active.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And they're gonna do a follow up study about now. What happens as you know, that twin has activity and starts to change some of these things. And I'm really curious.

[B]

I think he should have changed his name to control group.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Stayed on the couch.

[A]

It's a great first name.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I'm like, I understand. I'm very happy for you that you're getting active. But the control group was the whole cool part of the study, bro.

[A]

I mean, I feel like if we're having a third child, it's definitely intervention group. We gotta be on the proactive thing side from the start.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are we allowed to say that our kid is Having trouble walking? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Poor Ollie.

[B]

Life is hard, you know, sometimes. And so we're. We're figuring it all out, but it's actually cool.

[A]

I mean, I feel like he's compensated. He's 18 months and not walking, which is kind of concerning as a parent. I'm sure he's fine. He's going to walk by the time he goes to college.

[B]

I mean, yeah, sure, maybe, maybe, hopefully.

[A]

But like, I feel like he's compensated. Like, his speech is great and like the way he's been saying I love you now, and it just absolutely melts me as a mom. And so, like, I feel like he's compensated in other ways.

[B]

First phrase, I love you. And now he says it constantly and it's like, well, you know, life is complicated. You never know what you're going to get. But if the kid says I love you as his almost Pavlovian response to everything, he'll probably be okay.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I took Leo on a hike last night. We went for like a mile and a half hike and it was just kind of spontaneous. And I carried Ollie the whole time. And he just, the whole time, like literally every 20ft was like, I love you. And I was like, if this is like, you know what he can do physically, Physically. I'm so grateful for that. Yeah.

[B]

Maybe we shouldn't have named him after a burger place. No, no, to be serious. To be serious. I imagine there's a Mary Oliver poem that will like assuage our fears as parents right now.

[A]

What's the poem? Is it I worried?

[B]

Oh, yeah, boom, boom, boom. I worried was at the end of the Leadville documentary last year too.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, he'll be great.

[B]

He'll be great.

[A]

Yeah, he'll probably walk.

[B]

Yeah, he'll probably. But he's the best kid ever, so. Yeah, life is just difficult. Maybe he needs a lactate gel. Okay, would you wanna get on the question and answer?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

All right, first one here on Bone Building. I got the sobering results from my first DEXA scan today. As a 50 year old active person who has never had any risk factors, it was shocking to see a lumbar spine number of negative 2.3. But in my discouragement, I immediately thought of what I've heard on your podcast. I remember that you have seen people improve their bone mineral density. I've looked at your articles, but don't see anything specifically. So I'm curious if you can recommend any. Any protocols. Obviously not medical advice, but more how you and your athletes have successfully adapted training and lifestyle to build bone.

[A]

We've seen athletes build massive amounts of bone. Like, we're talking things that should be written up in studies, and it's really cool to see that progression. And then I also say this too, is that lumbar spine is often the lowest number that we see in runners just because you're not loading that as much. And if you can give that lumber spine a year to three years of loading, it can make a huge difference.

[B]

Absolutely. And so this type of, of result, try not to worry about it. Like, there are elements that you should change probably, and we're going to talk about those. But know that it's normal. Lumbar spine in runners happens to be low a lot. If you start to see low numbers in, like lower, you know, like in the hip or leg, then it becomes slightly more concerning overall. But low lumbar spine numbers on their own, nothing to be super, super worried about.

[A]

In fact, I've seen so many in athletes that are not carrying fundamental risk factors like a history of bone stress injuries or misdemeanor periods or histories of disordered eating, that sometimes I feel like my brain normalizes it almost more than I should. It's like negative 2.3. You're good, you're fine, you got this. Just know that's fine, but you'll be good.

[B]

I'm not a statistician, but a couple

[A]

standard deviations, nothing to worry about, no big deal. Yeah.

[B]

And I think this goes directly back to the conversation we had about multiomics and that twin study when, when you're consulted about bone mineral density, you often hear you can only make small changes, even those you're like set in stone. When you're 20 years old or whatever, you hear that so much, that so much of bone density is built before a certain age. But then in practice, we have seen so many numbers get altered in just wild ways. So we're talking negative four down almost to zero to baseline. That shouldn't make any sense statistically. And the fact just is that if you do the types of interventions that we're going to talk about long enough, the body can get to a place usually that it's healthy. And if not, there are medications that can, can help too.

[A]

And I think this is where high carb fueling comes in. And I would love to see a study that looks at this of what happens if we take an athlete that's training at a pretty high level and has some DEXA like abnormalities in terms of like negative Z scores. And we have Them do high carb feeling on almost every training day over 45 to 60 minutes. And from what I've seen anecdotally, the results are quite good and I'd be curious to see like an actual study on that.

[B]

This is why we beat the drum on high carb fueling. Yes, performance matters, but as you see, the health impact impacts that if you under fuel training and you are at all at risk of reduced bone density. Bone density drops like a stone. And that is like, would you say that's not concerning for some people, but the answer is if you're dropping bone mineral density, if you're an at risk person, everyone is probably doing things to their body that are negative. It's just we don't have the easy way of measuring them. So once you start higher carb fueling during training, these numbers seem to just switch so fast. It is very, very strange and not exactly sure why. So in addition, in addition to that, you're looking at high dose vitamin D, making sure those levels are good calcium. You don't need to overdo calcium, just getting some in a little bit less like proportionally than vitamin D and then loading the spine. This is where things like back squats, some heavy lifting come in. But it doesn't need to be a ton, just enough to cause those initial adaptations.

[A]

And I love advanced bone support from Thorin. Like that's one of the best supplements that contains those, contains calcium, vitamin D, magnesium, boron. I think boron is great for bone health too. Um, there's a little bit of more mixed reviews, but it's nice to have all of that together in one place and then that the last thing is just like, give yourself a warm hug. Like 60% of this around approximately is related to genetics and a lot of that you just can't control. Um, and so give yourself a warm hug on that too.

[B]

Yeah. There's so many jokes about advanced bone builder.

[A]

Yeah, you know, you know I'm out of it right now. Oh no, I need to order more. I take it twice a day.

[B]

I'm not going to make any jokes on that.

[A]

Why? Come on, on. I was gonna say get the game tape on it, man.

[B]

I was gonna say the game tape disagrees.

[A]

Yeah, you're always advanced bone builder. Yeah, that was great. Okay, high five.

[B]

But yeah, on Patreon, I'm gonna do a bone building post so that we have all of this in one spot just so that people can get it. And I, I'll make it free to everybody so that this information can get out there. Next up on phobias. Hi. I was wondering if you had any advice on how to work through or get over a fear of. Of throwing up, especially in the context of fueling during longer runs and races. I've been working on increasing my gel and carb intake for longer runs so far just to train for two road marathons, but hoping to venture into trails in the future. But I feel somewhat limited by a fear of vomiting. I'll sometimes stop taking in gels if I start to even feel slight discomfort or nausea. And I know that would not be sustainable if I want to eventually go for longer races. I do regularly burp during runs, sometimes what feels like too much, so that isn't an issue. But I'm extremely scared of throwing up. I even skipped through vomit scenes during movies and shows and cannot be in the same space as someone else vomiting without panicking. I just had a realization. They're probably not going to like us answering this question.

[A]

Well, it's a form of exposure therapy. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And if you don't like how we're answering this question, you probably needed some exposure therapy, too. But also, like, hugs, because I've been here.

[B]

Yeah, we'll get into that. Have you experienced this or coached someone through this? And if so, is the best fix just exposure therapy, or are there other tips and tricks? I assume the answer is just exposure, your therapy, but it doesn't hurt to get confirmation.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I was here for the longest time, like, as a kid growing up. And I remember this dates back to, like, being 4 years old, and my brother had neurovirus, and my mom was like, megan, you're gonna get neurovirus. This is coming for you. And I think I carried so much fear about it, and I eventually did, and it was not fun. And I think I carried that experience. And it's interesting to trace phobias back to, like, you know, potentially some kind of childhood experience. I carried that experience all the way through med school.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I hated watching, like, home Alone. Had a vomiting scene scene, like, I think, 12 minutes into the movie. And I was just like, why did they do this?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

They ruined a perfectly good movie. Yeah.

[B]

I like how you had a phobia all the way through med school. It took, like, no until med school.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And then exposure there helped, but it's

[A]

kind of a miracle I went to med school. I'm, like, throwing myself into vomiting lands just willingly.

[B]

Yeah. Every single time I burped early in our relationship, you would look at me

[A]

like, oh, no, yeah, it's coming.

[B]

It's also extended toward burping a little bit. Even though you don't have computer burping yourself.

[A]

Not anymore. Yeah, but it used to.

[B]

Yeah, but even now when I burp, you give me the side eye. You have to ick so hard when I burp.

[A]

Do not. No.

[B]

Megan, I could lay down the hardest fart you've ever heard and you're just like, hell yeah, give it to me, son. I burp and you're like, get in the other room, you bitch.

[A]

Like, this game tape is not good.

[B]

But on any phobia, anything where you have a fear or whatever usually does trace back to childhood or something like that. Give yourself compassion first. Just understand this is okay. Hey, this is normal. Everything that people feel is something that is shared almost. And as you experience that, it's like, well, if something stems back to your childhood or something that you just can never fully anchor yourself on. The answer probably starts with therapy and talking about it. So writing in this question is great, but working with an expert is so, so beneficial rather than just putting yourself into traumatic situations of dealing with a phobia. EMDR therapy in particular, particular seems to be really good at unraveling kind of non linear anxiety processes that amount to phobias, whether that's fear of flying or fear of this. Like, EMDR seems so wacky when you look at it. Like it just like intuitively. But it works so well. From what we have heard from athletes. I have one athlete recently who had an EMDR experience where they thought about themselves as a young athlete and they just started crying in the.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[B]

In the therapy moment. And then they've had their biggest breakthroughs. I'll tell you who it is. Off mic I think they've shared this story, but I want to be careful. And it's just like all of a sudden they are one of. I mean, I don't want to get into details, but they're incredible. And that experience helped them unburden themselves of some of the things that they had been carrying.

[A]

And I've seen athletes do incremental exposure therapy. So we're talking about starting really small. And that can feel manageable as you build up. And it helps so much. And for me, med school was exposure therapy of like, you know, going in and working with patients. And I think the ultimate thing that has like kind of really killed this phobia fully for me is kids. Yeah, like, I love Leo and Ollie so much and they have also vomited all over me and all over our floor multiple times. And when the thing, like, I just love them so much that it's like I'm giving them a hug through that, like. And I think it's just like, changed my experience with it.

[B]

You know what I'm noticing?

[A]

What?

[B]

Every time I threw up didn't cause any changes, I was in the other room. Then our kids throw up and like, total liberation for you.

[A]

Ah, they're just so damn cute. Okay, I get it.

[B]

I looked in the mirror this morning. I was biking and our big mirrors, you can look in them if you want to. And I look sideways and went, ah. What the.

[A]

I've been doing that more often recently. What's. I mean, are you going, ah.

[B]

Are you like, ah.

[A]

To myself.

[B]

Oh, well, you're beautiful. You look perfect in every way. Like, literally everything about you just looks stunning. Your nose ring is glistening right now.

[A]

I feel like I'm just getting a little older.

[B]

Mangan, you are so perfect in every way. And you're going to age so beautifully and you're going to be perfect the way you are. Meanwhile, I. I make like the Abominable Snowman look like Brad Pitt. I don't know.

[A]

What are you talking about?

[B]

I don't know, man. I'm. I'm having it granted, after I shaved my legs, I feel like your self

[A]

confidence has gone up so much. And you shaved your arms.

[B]

Shave my arms?

[A]

Shames your chest. Yeah, it's all on the floor.

[B]

I. I just totally let go of all of the things I was carrying. This is, this is what I'm saying. So some people do EMDR therapy. Other people, people just shave off all of their hair.

[A]

We were riding on Sunday and after the ride, you're like, I could feel my hair's blowing in the wind and it just grossed me out so much.

[B]

That's not Arrow. Yeah, it's not arrow.

[A]

Yeah. You know, we uplift all body hair, but it is actually. I feel like on the bike, it actually is so much more comfortable.

[B]

Yes, we uplift whatever you want to do with your bodies in every single regard, because it's all beautiful. But especially for the men out there, I feel like there's not a societal message to men to shave. So by. By giving this. It's not like, negative, I don't think. Try it. Try it. You don't have to shave close because that's really intense. Just get like an electric trimmer and just run it up and down your legs and you're. And don't tell your partner and then

[A]

leave it all on the floor. And your partner is like, who died?

[B]

No, no, no, no. Clean it, clean it, clean it.

[A]

Or you can just have a hair drawer, Megan, in case you need to put it back.

[B]

Stop giving me shit. Have you seen the front seat of our car? You have like 87 cups in there. Half of them have junk in it and it smells like shit.

[A]

I'm hydrating and I'm giving myself my beta.

[B]

Okay. Well, today a bear unloaded our trash can, which was out at the road. And so I went and cleaned it all up. Megan.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I was shocked because I came running, it was unloaded at 5:30 in the morning. And I was like, I'm going to run and deal with this later. And I came back and it was clean. My first thought was, which neighbor cleaned this? And then I came inside and Leo is like, we cleaned the trash. And I was like, what?

[B]

Well, I, in that process, cleaned up a lot of various functions of your body.

[A]

What are you talking about?

[B]

Well, it also includes the bathroom trash.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

So I'm doing the Lord's work. I have no idea what I'm talking about or where that thought came from. Oh. But yeah. So men out there who might not have gotten the societal message to shave your legs, do it, do it. And yes, I actually think I've had a reel I wanted to do in mind, but I've kind of stopped doing the joke reels recently.

[A]

Yeah, I noticed. I. I was actually. You know, this is. That's wild. I was awake last night, like 1am randomly, and I was like, why is David not doing his joke reels?

[B]

I don't want athletes to think I'm just not serious.

[A]

I know, but you're not serious.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

You should probably just be honest about that up front.

[B]

Real talk, when I shave my legs and chest, it's gender affirming care. You know, like, I think that'd be a really good one.

[A]

Can you say that?

[B]

Yeah, of course. But destigmatizing gender affirmations, affirming care. And that when you say gender affirming care, you're not saying, I am trying to fit a mold. Even if that mold is, you know, femme or whatever as a thing is going to get. Even if the mold is just, this is how I feel most at home in my body. That is a type of your, like, perspective, which might be related to gender, might be related to other things. Just give it a try. I mean, you got a nose ring that's like really manifesting yourself in the world.

[A]

Actually, I do feel more like. I don't know, I feel like my personality shines a little bit more now that I've had a nose ring, which is like, that's like the weirdest, like, thing to say, but I actually think it's true.

[B]

Yeah, Appearance doesn't matter, but like, letting yourself express who you are through various mechanisms is really cool. So for me, I walk around with shaved arms right now and I'm just like, hell yeah, son. I'm tough as shit.

[A]

Did you shave your nose?

[B]

Oh, yeah. The funny thing is, like, the nose hair doesn't bother me. Probably because I don't feel it blowing in the wind.

[A]

It's actually probably a good thing to have nose hair.

[B]

You know what I just thought about?

[A]

What?

[B]

The human nose is incredibly aerodynamic, right?

[A]

That's actually very true.

[B]

Yeah. The nose doesn't look that dissimilar.

[A]

I mean, it depends from. I mean even, even every nose is aerodynamic. Yeah.

[B]

And it doesn't look that dissimilar from a time trial helmet that they wear in the Tour de France.

[A]

That's so true.

[B]

So I think we evolved over millions of years to have more aerodynamic noses. That's, that's my theory.

[A]

Thus we can go faster in the Tour de France.

[B]

Boom, boom, boom. Bringing it all together. Okay, let's rapid fire some. Uh, here's the first one. Do I have to go? Do you have a go to recommendation for a warmup prior to a fight race? How long to run, how many strides, et cetera?

[A]

I think it's good to warm up quite a bit, actually before a 5K. And this is a place where openers help a bunch. Especially if you're taking bicarb before a race. Like if you're taking bicarb before a race and a short race, like a 5k. Doing some openers in the forms of strides and sometimes even I like extending that out like 45 seconds to a minute on the last stride can help a lot.

[B]

I like to do 15 to 20 minutes with the last one minute of that just at a steady clip. We're talking like 50k effort or something, not fast. Um, and then after that, like stripping down, doing some pre cooling, like getting your body cool and doing strides just so that you feel neuromuscularly ready. That's basically what all of our pros do and it really works. And so that's at short distances where we're talking like 5k mile, 10k. Um, as you move up, like half marathon might just be 10 or 15 minutes with a similar Protocol where you still do a slight opener but nothing crazy in some strides, um, marathon similar, where you're doing, you know, 10ish minutes of the slow jog because this helps reduce the resting lactate. And then even for, for ultras, a five minute jog before really does help activate the aerobic system and can prevent some initial spiking in glucose burning. So warmups are good for any distance.

[A]

And I think that's even more relevant for ultras that are going straight uphill. Like, think about western states and it's like, you know, you're immediately going up the escarpment. And I actually think extending that warmup in races where you're going straight uphill to like 8 minutes, 10 minutes even can sometimes be really helpful.

[B]

Yeah, maybe it's one thing I didn't do right last year because I really didn't warm up because it was, it was just hard to get to the start line. I was stressed. But those warmups can be so slow. They don't need to be fast. It doesn't need to be your normal easy run pace. This is literally just to activate the aerobic system. And then after that, the strides will get you neuromuscularly primed.

[A]

Okay, I'm at the point within my regular runs where I stop. So we have like an initial hill at the start of like most of our regular runs that's like eight minutes long. And I stop there and pee. And it's almost this warmup then where I go on and I'm like, I feel so good after. I don't know if it stopped. I don't know if it's peeing. I don't know what it is. But something about that, like that eight minute start to just let things work in and then I feel good after is fascinating.

[B]

So this puts you in the middle of the field where there's no people, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Are you doing side short pee when you do that?

[A]

Oh, yeah, just right on the trail.

[B]

Oh, so you're doing side short pee even when no one's there.

[A]

It's just easier than pull. I mean, it's so fast, huh? Yeah.

[B]

Okay. This is advanced. This is incredible.

[A]

I mean, you gotta pee like no one's watching. So true champions do.

[B]

I respect that so much. Um, okay, next one. I have a quick question around the differences of carb intake in training versus race day. Usually on my long runs, I will be getting somewhere between 80 to 100 grams of carbs per hour. And then when I go to race, I have a similar number one of the things I noticed is that in my races I'm often feeling more depleted, which seems to be obvious after the fact because I'm going at a harder intensity. Should I be doing higher carb in my training so that I can also do higher in my races? Because I do feel like the race is when I need more energy.

[A]

I think this depends a lot and we have these kind of nuanced conversations with athletes about like how do we step up to, to higher carb and like when are you ready for that? And based off of this athlete, like the fact that they're taking in these carbs and training, it seems like their GI system is holding up well in racing. I do think there's an area that if you wanted to push to 1:20 and try that, I don't think it's going to fundamentally change. Like you know, if you're at a hundred and you're bumping to 1:20, I don't think it's going to fundamentally change that depletion feeling though.

[B]

You hit 120, all of a sudden

[A]

angels start singing the abyss is gone

[B]

Baby got back now I, I think it's just worth it for sure. But I think the bigger lesson here is to make your training long runs higher quality. Let this be a quality stimulus where you're actually pushing your body so that you have the same needs, so that you're not just testing something that is like totally absent from like a race stimulus. You're getting something that is more like a Z2, Z3 into Z4 type of run. If you make your long run quality and you can then increase cost carbs during it, you'll get the best of all worlds where you're adapting better to that stimulus and you'll be able to apply it on race day. But I don't think athletes who are doing purely easy long runs should use the long run to increase carbs a ton like to these massive levels, thinking it's gonna correlate with race day. I think what this end up might end up being is instead of a fueling limitation since you're already at 80 to 100, might be slight training limitation where your long runs are not high quality enough so your body's not as ready to process the fatigue on race day.

[A]

I feel like quality long runs too are also the confidence for me in racing. I thought a lot of about like what it is like not a step up in distance and to try longer distances now that like I'm feeling so good in training. Like my heart medication seems to be working. And it's really fun to think about just like, you know, extending some of those quality long runs that I'm already doing. And it gives me confidence for racing. Yeah.

[B]

I think if we would summarize, swap training as it stands now, especially with all the road success. Right. Like, there's been all these roadrunners that are going so fast right now. I think the big change relative to even some other systems that we really love and respect and learn from, is that the long run is always a quality stimulus in the SWAT framework. And so those athletes are either doing a workout on their long run or it's steady or it's. It's quality in some manner rather than saying, oh, the long run is just an easy stimulus. So then we can do two workouts plus a long run.

[A]

We do have some of the easy stimulus long runs, but those aren't like, you know, the majority of long runs are focused in some ways.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But like, we're not stacking it so much all the time. And if it is, it's easy. It's not like, oh, this is going to be another quality stimulus. Because I think what people miss is that the long run, even when it's easy, is a quality stimulus on the body. It is stressful. And so if it's not being like, incorporated with that framework in mind, it often leads to athletes stacking more stress, but not adapting as well. So, you know, in the road running world, I think there's an opportunity there, particularly with female athletes, that we're don't have to do two hard workouts a week. We can do one quality workout a week and one long run and stack in a bunch of strides with that. And athletes can adapt without, like, needing long breaks and breaking down and things like that.

[A]

And I think that's especially great for road marathoners too, when you're like, working and practicing what it feels like to be at marathon pace. And that helps a lot.

[B]

Absolutely. Okay, next one. This is related to the carbon. I'm doing an ironman on Sunday. I know you are big fans of burgers and fries. I am too. How does burger and fries sound for lunch the day before the race? Too much fat. Dinner the night before will be chicken and rice. But I thought that burger and fries for lunch could be fun. Thanks for all you do.

[A]

Oh, hell yeah. I feel like rock that burger and fries. It's great. I mean, you can even rock it for dinner. Like, I feel like sometimes chicken and rice, I'm like, throw a burger on it. I Feel like that sounds like it might be a more productive dinner.

[B]

Well, if they've done chicken and rice before, do what you, you have done in training.

[A]

I know, but I'm like chicken and rice, that sounds like bland compared to burger and fries.

[B]

Well, to zoom out for this athlete, they ended up doing exactly that and crushed their Ironman had a huge breakthrough. Um, they were using some swap plans from Patreon and then adapting them with swimming, which was pretty cool. Um, but I think what this points out is as you're thinking about racing or whatever, it is so easy to overthink feeling. Did you ever do this in your life or you, you've always been kind of liberated from overthinking pre racing meals and stuff.

[A]

You know, I don't overthink fueling. I overthink like a lot of other things. Like I'll be walking up the stairs and be like, how are my legs feeling today? And I don't ever think about that leg clenching feeling like outside of race week. And so there's just a lot of. Or I think about like our kids getting sick or like a million other things. But fueling, I'm like the burger and fries. Yeah.

[B]

Well, you generally don't overthink performance. It seems like I do in the same way.

[A]

Yeah, I think you tend to overthink it more. Yeah.

[B]

Well, when I was young it was terrible because I had the same tendencies and I'm was really good at spotting patterns but I wasn't like doing the same level of work internally to make sure that I'm a little bit at peace and not governed by anxiety. Um, so every time I found like little correlations, I would start doing weird ass shit, whatever that was. Um, like one time I remember I got really cold the night before the race at like a party in law school. And then I came home and I took a 20 minute hot shower and then I had a great race. The next day I made a wrong turn and didn't finish, but it was a good, great race. Then subsequently I tried to do the

[A]

same thing and I think I realized that and I was like, I'm going to inject all the things I like into here and we're going to see if we can like wire this to be really fun things.

[B]

Exactly. And what I learned over time is that okay, simplify all of that, like it does not matter, but when it comes to fueling that is one place where every athlete is different. And instead of trying to say what should I do? Like I read all the runner's world articles that said chicken and rice or whatever. And I would try to do that and I. It would just perform or not. It didn't really matter. Um, instead of that, think about training and whenever you have a great day, like a great day, just go back and write down a few things you did the night before, especially with fueling, and be like, all right, that I know works, at least in this context. So that's what I can do before the race. And so for this athlete, if you've done burger and fries and you like it, do burger and fries. I wouldn't do it for the first time if you've never done it in training ever, um, just because everybody is different. But if you have have, go for it.

[A]

Well, here's my hot take is I feel like if you're worried about your GI system related to burgers and fries the day before a race, you need more burgers and fries across life. Yeah. Like, train that. Like, we have burgers and fries like three to four nights a week. And so we're training a lot. Like, a lot of my workouts have come off of burgers or fries just because we eat that kind of food a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's actually been really helpful for my GI system. Yeah.

[B]

I think if we were really looking at what might separate some of the swap results recently, it's that when athletes increase their red meat intake, it does help. That being said, if you're a vegetarian or vegan, totally uplift. And it's not about. About the specifics. It is about the satisfaction bombs. Your formulation of satisfaction bombs is one of my favorite things I've ever heard. And I try to say it all the time to athletes because we get a lot of messages about things like, you know, regaining period or feeling good in life. And I'm like, well, let's do the satisfaction bomb test, whatever that is. So burger and fries for athletes that eat meat is the. Is the big one. But if athletes don't eat meat, you need something similar that's like, wouldn't be a safe food for people. That would be the opposite of a safe food. And you usually. That is the place where you can see issues arising. And once you have that conversation with athletes, often it's a way to get it to click that, like, they think they're in a good spot, but they're not quite there yet. And so, yeah, I vote for satisfaction bombs. And I think that especially applies before the race. That's one reason that I don't really like the carb loading framework because I think it detracts from satisfaction bombs for athletes.

[A]

Well, I was gonna say, I feel like I often see that translate into a lot more snacks throughout the day. And then like avoiding a nice big dinner, you're like, oh, my God, Gosh, I've had like 45 little cups of rice and so now I'm full. I'm not gonna have a big dinner. And I think that kind of. I think it just like shifts how the body's absorbing things and just to keep it fun.

[B]

I mean, for me, what's the most fun in the world is being like, oh, now we're doing the pre race dinner and we're all just like here together eating this massive burger or whatever the thing is, or pizza or.

[A]

It's basically always a burger.

[B]

It's always a burger now. Yeah, yeah. Because like, I have noticed in training that that is just a direct correlation to my performance.

[A]

Okay, here's. Okay, one more hot take.

[B]

Oh, no. Oh, no. This is gonna be wild.

[A]

I'm going to frame it for me. For me, pizza sucks the night before training. You've decided that too.

[B]

I think I infected you.

[A]

I think you infected me. You're like, megan, my performance is not as good when I have pizza the night before. And it's like there is a fundamental difference between like a burger and fries and pizza for me. And maybe that's a weird personal thing that I've inherited from you, but I feel it.

[B]

I think I just gave you my phobia. It's kind of like I was never scared of heights until we met. I was so good on rock ledges and things like that. I wasn't a climber, but it just meant never bothered me. Now I am worse with heights than you are. I get so nervous even when there's a little drop off on the side of the trail. And I don't understand how, like, I think it's just I care about you so much. You did it. And then over time, I became aware of it. And now it's all I think about in those situations.

[A]

I'm sorry. It's my fault. Now I think about pizza the same way.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

You messed me up.

[B]

You also do good things for me.

[A]

Not just that.

[B]

Okay, last one here. Lol. Not me literally laughing out loud when Megan pointed out that science papers would be vastly improved by using AI for a little writing help. Laughy face. I'm a chemistry professor and always have to explain to my students that while scientific papers can be challenging to read, especially at first, sometimes they are just really poorly, poorly written. Like, so bad.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Some scientific papers, actually. I feel like this is a point where, like, creative writing. I just, like, love creative writing, and I think I've enjoyed that even more. So in the time of AI of just like, you know, I want to read really good poetry and really good creative writing. And then sometimes I read a scientific paper and I'm like, God damn, you could just use A.I.

[B]

no, I totally disagree. I think that the problem is not with writers. Like, I think the problem is that scientific writing is impossible and boring.

[A]

That's probably also a lot of scientific writing does come from translation too. And I think sometimes that's difficult, is like, you know, translating. I mean, I would be terrible at trend, like, you know, writing in English and having someone read that in Italian. It's like the, the, the vibes just get lost.

[B]

Yeah, I get that. But I just think in general with scientific writing, the hard part is the form that, like, even the best writers in the world, most of them, when they started doing or start doing science. Science writing. But this is dumb because you can't do the things that show personality.

[A]

It makes me so sad. I've written a lot of scientific papers, and I'm just like, okay, we're just gonna write this sentence that's a bo. I mean, it's hard to make it anything other than a boring sentence.

[B]

Well, the reason AI can do it so well is because AI is by definition like middle of the road. Right? Leaks, common denominator. And that's what people are striving for. They're trying to essentially impersonate these systems to, like, scrub their voice out of it. Like, voice in scientific papers is useful, usually perceived badly. And so you can imagine my world where, you know, I was in law.

[A]

You're bringing some voice to law.

[B]

You can imagine.

[A]

I don't know if that was always appreciated.

[B]

What do you think my analogies were like in law?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And every single one of them, all of the voice got taken out. And, you know, not to say that that was good writing. It probably wasn't effective communication or. But the thing is, people would have read it at least, because the way I was communicating wasn't briefs or whatever. It was more like policy papers and stuff like that. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that the hard part is what we identify as good writing in science papers feels like AI and what we identify as bad writing is it's a bad medium. So if you're out there doing science writing, my big message is liberate yourself. Try to still let yourself shine in little fun Easter egg style ways.

[A]

And it can just be like for me, I would often have a lot of fun in like the first sentence of the paper because like in the introduction, in the introduction you have a little bit more leeway to just like write. And you know, once you get to results, you have to just like, you know, think about characters and smash it all together. But like you, I think if you can have fun in certain parts of the paper, it does make a difference.

[B]

Yeah, but, but I always think when people are like, oh, this is good writing versus bad writing. They did this in law all the time. I'm like, no, actually what you're calling good writing is just formulaic and that's cool, but that's not voice. And good writing is voice. It is voice driven. It is. You're like, if you identify a good writer, in my opinion, it's not okay, this is funny or this is compelling or whatever. It's this person's like authenticity is coming out through their words and, and so you could almost imagine them either saying it or conveying it themselves rather than being from someone else. And the problem is that's just not how science writing works. So it is a problem of medium, in my opinion, rather than a problem of like personal like structure.

[A]

I think sometimes that's just how not like writing is taught either. And I love like teachers when you like think back to like AP lit and you're like AP Scientific writing or whatever. I forget what the aps are these days. But when you think about those teachers uplifting, unique voice and how it is super subjective when you're grading a paper, I imagine within AP Lit. But to think about with the power of elevating a young writer's voice, it's like that can transfer to everything.

[B]

Yeah. Well, here's my writing tips class here. So writing has actually taken me a lot of places.

[A]

It has. And you've maintained your voice really well.

[B]

Well, you're zooming back. So started a blog when I, I was in college and before that, that's

[A]

how that was my first introduction to you is I read your blog before I even met you.

[B]

But even before that, like when I was young, you read some of the things I did for journal entries and stuff.

[A]

They were so funny.

[B]

But I would take the medium and flip it and that doesn't. It was bad writing, actually.

[A]

Sometimes you would make fun of the medium itself, which I personally enjoyed.

[B]

But the thing is, it was just my voice at the Time it was authentic to me and thankfully my mom encouraged it so hard. She's like world class teacher. She won teacher of the year. Just so great. And it must have felt so weird to her and she must been a little worried that her kid was going to like sever the heads off of squirrels or something.

[A]

But you had done it with voice.

[B]

But the whole time she's like, david, yes. And yes, she thought it was very weird that like my book bag was a mess and no papers were ever in folders or whatever. But with voice she was like, yes, yes, yes. And then, you know, I had some other teachers that were like, this is weird, but yeah, desk do it. And that allowed it to germinate. And I think a lot of people don't have that when they're young. And so for me that became the blog, which became Truner magazine articles and Trail Runner magazine was basically the avenue to start all of the exposure of, you know, that we talk about science and coaching and all that. And it was a great benefit. And then that became Patreon. And so like writing, I always identified with the line in Hamilton, which is like, you know, why do you write like you're running out of time? Like that type of, of idea always like really struck a chord with me. And so my lesson to people is not to develop a certain writing style or anything like that because I don't think the right, the correct writing style is anything that you've read before. The correct writing style is your own voice. And to try to not let people smash it out of you. Because when you write in your own voice, it is not going to be for some people, because some people want things that are least common denominator or specifically in the voices they enjoy. And particularly in a world of AI, the more you are authentic to your own voice, which is weird usually like the things that are truly in our head, getting out on paper, that is the goal. How do you get what's in your head on paper? And so if you're out there and you've been smashed down into the middle instead of that, get fucking weird and see what happens. And you're going to refine it over time and get better and better and better at it. But like, if you don't start weird, you're never going to get to places that, that I think make you an exceptional writer.

[A]

And your mom gave you the advice of a kid. And this has changed for me, like it's helped my writing process so much of don't think right. And I think so often my brain wanted that first sentence in, like, every sentence thereafter to be perfect. And it's helped me so much of just, like, you know, you're one of the fastest writers that I've ever seen. Like, you put together some stuff so fast, and it's brilliant. But I think that's been trained into you from a young age of, like, trying to, like, not be perfect with each sentence. And it's been. I think that's been really helpful.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Because, like, you know, I'm not like, a quote unquote good writer, but I am a very unique writer, I think.

[A]

Oh, so unique. Actually, we had a family dinner, and my sister works for the feed, and it's been so cool to just, like, have that family interaction. And you weren't at the dinner. It was, like, late. You were with the kids, and she just started pulling out your sentences from the feed emails. And they were so funny. Some of those sentences are true gems and just a random marketing email.

[B]

Well, if anybody wants to hear who I think is the ultimate example example of this, there's a podcast called 60 Songs that Explain the 90s by Rob Harvilla. And he. The. The first 30 minutes or whatever of each episode is an essay that he reads, I think. So he writes these in detail before he does it. His voice comes out so hard. And it's so interesting because he's actually saying the things he wrote so he. You can literally hear the voice. And for me, once I started listening to that podcast, it totally clarified what the whole idea of writing, communication, and communicating with other people is, is because it's unlike anything I've ever heard. It's so different than anything I could ever accomplish myself because it's just. He is so authentic. But that podcast, to me, is the writing class, like, advanced graduate level. And I think if you've been told not to be what you are, it's the place to go to just feel a warm hug.

[A]

And that's like. Oh, it's just like the best feeling when you encounter writing like that. And that's my favorite thing is, like, to still seek that out even in this world that has so much AI writing.

[B]

Absolutely. Okay, let's get on to Listener Questions Corner. Before that, quick promo for Janji.

[A]

Janji. Okay. I am just loving my bag. That bag comes with me everywhere, and it contains multitudes at this point.

[B]

What's the bag called?

[A]

The Ultra Hauler Super Tote.

[B]

Ultra Hauler Super Tote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You do have it absolutely everywhere.

[A]

And people ask me about it. All the time. My mom, I think, is actually ordering a bag right now.

[B]

Yeah, it has so many, like, different holes in. Has a lot of holes.

[A]

You're like, I just want to fuck that bag.

[B]

I'm not saying I want to fuck the bag.

[A]

That's kind of what it sounded like. That's what you led with I saying,

[B]

you know, first,

[A]

I love you.

[B]

I mean, I. You're the one that said it.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. But look at those shorts on you.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You should race. Have you raced in these yellow shorts? No, I like the color.

[B]

I don't know what they're called, though. Go to john.comswap because I should know.

[A]

Those are not the multi short. Yeah, they're different. I should know. But I'm loving the RD short, which is the one that has the integrated waist belt. And I just carry so many things in there.

[B]

Yeah, you r the RD short almost every day now.

[A]

Yeah. And I. I also just like in life, if I'm not, I basically wear it just all the time now. And if I'm like walking to pick Leo up at school and I don't have somewhere to stash all the things, I get kind of set up and

[B]

they're the best company. So. Go to john.com swap uh, and now listener corner. This one is really fun. We talked about this in the bonus episode, but wanted to bring it here too. Thank you for helping me get to know my real self, which has always been fem slash queer. Whenever I hit it, denied it, beat it down all my life. This athlete's in their 50s. So hard. It's ch a challenge right now. But I'm stoked about accepting it as absolutely stoked. This all happened over the same seven months as another story that they conveyed to us. Goodness gracious, I'm not the same person. Thank you for coaching more than running.

[A]

That is so beautiful. And to embrace that in your 50s, it's like, hell, yeah. That is so awesome and so meaningful. And thank you for sharing it with us.

[B]

Yeah. And I just think our identities are so multifaceted. Like, we are not one thing. And some of identity is a choice. Right? Like, I think there are certain things, things of, oh, you're going to be a kind person or whatever. It's like, yeah, maybe there's some genetic component there, but also it's a choice that you make every day. And so decide right now that kindness will be your strongest attribute. Like, it's something you can do. But then there are other things that getting back to the genetic and environment and all of that stuff that we just don't understand. And so many people try to fit themselves in boxes because they've been beaten down into that place by either society or individuals in their lives. And that is so sad because, like, the most fun thing in the world is just expressing yourself and knowing that on the other side of that, there are going to be people out there that are like, yes, we see you. And so that's my message, is, like, we see you wherever you're at. Like, we get it. And we're here for telling us stories or support or whatever in that journey, because, like, we have gotten the privilege of seeing so many stories behind the scenes, both in coaching and just via the podcast. And it's like, it is all complicated, it is all hard and is all unique. And if you can just let your light shine in whatever way it does, the world's gonna be a better place because of it.

[A]

And it's like, how cool is it to, like, let yourself fly free in this way and to, like, you know, start to experience the world in this way and imagine, like, it's almost like seeing the world through a totally different lens, but also the same lens that you've had this whole time. And it's like, that is awesome.

[B]

I'm flying free right now because I got these smooth guys.

[A]

You really are. Look at those.

[B]

I mean, they're a little. They're very stubbly, these. I used an electric shaver just to

[A]

do a little bit, so I'm gonna try going closer.

[B]

I was. Do I. No, no, no. Because that takes time. I. I only can do shaved legs if it takes 90 seconds.

[A]

Yeah. But today, this is the man's version of a shave leg.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Like in the shower, getting real close in there.

[B]

You tell that, like, parts of me might have, like, a little bit more of, like, you know, genders of spectrum. You know, the idea, like, I'm. I'm shaving my legs, but then on the other hand, I'm like, it can only take 60 to 90 seconds, and there's going to be spots all over,

[A]

and we're going to put all this hair in a drawer. Exactly. It's a man cave drawer.

[B]

But, but, but today. Today I had a power breakthrough on the bike.

[A]

Your bike was so good.

[B]

And the thing is, they would say, yeah, shaving her legs only helps when you're outdoors because of some slight aerodynamic benefit, though that is even minor and might not be real, but I was indoors. Aerodynamics didn't matter. And guess what? My little avatar in Zwift was faster because of my shaved legs. So I'm just saying, if you're out there, do it. Do it now.

[A]

It's gonna feel so good and so freeing.

[B]

So freeing.

[A]

So freeing.

[B]

When you review the game tape, you're gonna be like, hey, added benefits. Smooth as hell.

[A]

We're gonna review so much game tape this week.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, you're actually gonna do the Sideshow P article.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I am. Let's do it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I need to get a new phone first.

[B]

How body hair Affects sidetrucking. No, we're not gonna talk about it. No, we're going. We're going.

[A]

Bye. We love you all.

[B]

Stop talking. I love you.