Isabelle and David welcome back Marcus Soutra, co-founder of Eye to Eye and founder of For the Good Consulting, and ask an interesting question of this nation-wide advocacy expert and fellow ADHD and LD-er: how has life in schools changed for neurodivergent kids, especially now that some of us are parents/educators/in charge? Are kids still afraid, as David was, of having to go to the nurses' office? And how has what's "cool" been redefined in the past decades? From trauma modes to collared shirts, from shifting ADHD from a diagnosis to an identity, the three explore perspectives on masking (AKA using energy to appear as neurotypical), which can be both a poison and a salve.

----

David wonders, given that Marcus travels across the continental United States…what is he seeing as patterns in neurodivergent culture? Marcus describes that he sees the elder millennials having kids who are now being identified as being neurodivergent, and naming, “The trauma ends with me,” and they’re refusing to hand this off to the next generation, and because a generation that grew up with these labels are now turning into parents, school leaders, caregivers, people in charge. David likens this to growing up in an earlier generation where he was taught to toughen up, to take the knocks and handle it. Isabelle relates this to how when you’re living in survival mode, you can’t also be processing the trauma and making meaning of it, you first have to survive—and part of survival mode is to have tunnel vision, to stay tough, to not pause to feel. So it would make sense for a generation that maybe always was in survival mode to try to pass that on to their kids in the form of “toughen up.” She relates to wanting to break this cycle, though, so hard, as a parent. And also—what does David mean by the “boy named Sue” generation? (Answer: it’s a reference to a Johnny Cash song, see below). Marcus describes how this compares to other movements, where something that used to be a diagnosis or label is then taken back as an identity. As he has ADHD, he was hoping this change would happen so much faster, in his small, privileged ND community this change happened so rapidly. It does take these generational shifts and changes to make these things stick. David names that individually, we all have individual struggles that rub up against the system. It felt like school was meant to take parts of us away, it was like an eraser trying to shave parts off. But we are be keepers of that. In school there was no concept of advocating for an accommodation, it was just: do you want to look weird? Leaving class early to go get his meds. How has this changed for kids and adults? It’s hard to generalize because “you know one neurodivergent person, you know one neurodivergent person.” But having an open conversation about something and talk about it and acknowledge and not other it—it does set it up for students to have a teacher they can talk to and ask for what they need (even one adult in that building). The needle has moved from the average high schooler even knowing what dyslexia/ADHD/any ND or LD is. Marcus wasn’t bummed out about dyslexic, but back in high school, it was other people were going to see him being different. He refused to get accommodations for the third time, because if he got accommodations for it, he wouldn’t take the SAT at the same time. Isabelle remembers that as a full body memory, taking the SAT being a production back in the day and even in her own experience being bussed on the short bus into a different school for a Gifted program and how it signaled you were different but also you didn’t want to belong to this select tribe, either. David names: different is dangerous in some ways, not just for kids but for adults, too. You walk into a room and everyone is wearing a blue “I’m here for a reason” shirt and you might slowly back out of the room and go “I don’t belong.” Trying to be like everyone else is both the salve and the poison—it helps keep us save when we’re masking—what does everyone else is doing? It helps us mask, but David’s first time being a room where people admitted they were neurodivergent, Grady was bouncing a racket ball, the relief and joy you feel when you can join in being more authentically yourself. Isabelle is thinking of the “Cool Bean” book (see below) and how in that story, the beans are ‘cool’ not just because they are performing as cool and have style and whatnot, but also because they are willing to take risks and help those who are being bullied or laughed at, that are able to stand up for others and themselves in a way. This is so different than ‘coolness’ as Isabelle experienced it in her little bubble growing up in suburban Chicago, where coolness felt way more about avoiding being targeting and felt meaner and scarier and more about social power and wielding it (with meanness). Marcus names how his masking helped him in a way; he didn’t know if he could get away with getting into trouble so he would know how to appear wearing a collared shirt and combed hair and befriend his teachers so that he would get on their good side. David describes how with ‘coolness,’ it could be more about performing as if, rather than actually being it—like Marcus wasn’t actually friends with his teachers but he had the appearance of it, and how often we take those appearances of coolness and roll with it. Isabelle wonders—what about the privilege of masking? Like the way people who mask more easily and slot into neurotypical expectations have privileges and also—‘detecting’ what’s cool? And what about how much of coolness, at least for a time, was defined by money, or access to certain expensive clothing brands (like Abercrombie and Fitch) What it means to perform as if you are confident in who you are,

Johnny Cash’s “Boy Named Sue” (live at San Quentin, 1969)

Cool Beans book (by Jory John) read aloud (by Harper Kids)

Smart Cookie (also by Jory John) read aloud (by Magical Little Minds) about learning differences/neurospicyness according to Isabelle

"White Hot: The Rise and Fall of Abercrombie and Fitch" (Netflix documentary)

------

Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards