SWWP #55 - Shaping South Africa's Music Scene (feat. Vaughn Thiel)

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Something Wrong With The Podcast
Host: Julian Delgado
Episode: #55 – Shaping South Africa's Music Scene (feat. Vaughn Thiel)
Date: April 7, 2026

In this engaging episode, Julian Delgado welcomes South African music executive and creative powerhouse Vaughn Thiel for a wide-ranging, candid conversation on the evolution of South Africa’s music industry, the cultural ties between Johannesburg and New York, the global impact of South African sounds, and the importance of integrity, community, and real talk in creative work. The pair reminisce on their first meeting during a life-changing trip to South Africa, discuss the surge of genres like amapiano and R&B, and reflect on the challenges and rewards of navigating both the business and creative sides of the music world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Johannesburg vs. New York: Kindred Spirits

• (01:00-03:13) Vaughn describes the “kindred energy” between Johannesburg (Joburg) and New York: both are “cosmopolitan, hustling, and a little dangerous.”
  • Vaughn: “Joburg is actually quite a lot like New York ... People are on the move. It’s a hustling and bustling city ... there’s an air of danger and hustle that’s dope.” [02:07]
• Vaughn shares his own migration story, from growing up in Free State and Pretoria to his adult years in Johannesburg, emphasizing how, like New York, Joburg is a melting pot shaped by arrivals from everywhere.
  • Julian: “You go 20 minutes north of here—and it’s like, culture’s completely different.” [03:45]

The Legendary South African Trip

• (04:05-14:11) Julian recounts how a spontaneous invite from rapper Bas sparked an unforgettable trip to South Africa after COVID’s peak, leading to deep, fast-forming friendships and immersive experiences guided by Vaughn and Dale.
  • Julian: “We go immediately to the bush... I landed two hours later, we were at Shambhala.” [06:09]
• The group’s night ride through Shambhala Game Reserve, on acid, was “life-changingly beautiful” and emotionally raw.
  • Julian: “I cried a lot. It was beautiful.” [07:20]
  • Vaughn: “That place, even without stimulants, is already ... such a powerful place. You’re so far away from everything you know.” [07:23]
• Vaughn explains Shambhala’s unique position in South African history, as the site of Nelson Mandela’s family retreat and a private, exclusive game reserve owned by the Steyn family.
  • Vaughn: “Mandela used to go there to get away ... They’ve left it very much untouched. So it’s a very special place in that sense.” [09:02]

Debunking Western Perceptions & The Cultural Deep Dive

• (14:50-16:01) Julian reflects on how immersive travel rewires "the perception we have of communities, continents, countries," and stirs an appreciation for the depth of South African culture and music.
  • Julian: “The appreciation I’ve built for the culture ... maybe the music is—what is the music here? How has that changed over the years?” [15:19]

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Vaughn’s Journey: From Punk Rock to Shaping South Africa’s Sound

From Marketing to Music

• (16:16–26:00) Vaughn narrates his path: from a soccer-playing marketing exec with a love for ideas to launching his own label with rapper Shane Eagle, after realizing the industry was “not that difficult” just “lacking smart people.”
  • Vaughn: “I was always an ideas person ... Ideas have always been the currency that I operated in.” [16:36]
  • Vaughn: “I was doing well ... but three months into that, I was like, I can do this for myself.” [17:27]
  • Vaughn: “When I sat around and looked at the music industry, I was like ... this doesn’t seem that difficult to put in structures ... you guys are not following basic principles.” [25:34]
• Backed by a breakout Shane Eagle album, numerous brand deals, and a SA Hip Hop Award, Vaughn and his team proved the proof of concept for truly independent music business in South Africa.

Connecting with Bas and Dreamville

• Early industry success landed Shane Eagle and Vaughn on Bas’s 2018 South African tour, cementing a friendship that would later take them on tour to Europe and into creative partnership.
  • Vaughn: “We just connected—especially with Bas ... it felt like we knew each other for a long time.” [27:00]

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Growth, Challenges & Lessons: Building Stay Low

• (28:59–37:06) After agency and festival business success (notably with Rocking the Daisies—the largest and most boutique South African music festival), Vaughn was recruited to build the Stay Low label under Stain Entertainment.
  • Vaughn: “They would absorb our agency … I got to start up Stay Low, and Fred [Kayembe] would run the creative agency.” [29:12]
  • On pressure:
    • Vaughn: “You might know something about yourself, but this is where you show it … the first time you do something’s cool ... the second time, it’s: ‘Can you do it again?’” [33:02]
    • Julian: “You could argue the second one matters more, because the first ... could be a fluke ... now, do it again.” [33:29]
  • Dale’s mentorship and trust were key:
    • Vaughn: “He’s never been the type of guy to say … ‘we’re not doing that song.’ He’s gone: ‘That’s what you do—now do it.’” [35:48]
  • Through ups and downs, wins and stumbles, Vaughn’s A&R approach led to multiple SA Music Awards and the careful nurturing of artists like Lord Kez.

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Artist Development, Integrity, & What Makes a Hit

• (37:06–44:25) Vaughn describes the journey toward achieving not just critical acclaim, but commercial “hit” records for both label and artist:
  • On what a hit means:
    • Julian: “Does this mean a hit in South Africa? ... or just across Africa? ... or a US Radio hit?”
    • Vaughn: “The dream is to have a hit that’s global ... but let me first be realistic and tick [the South African box] first.” [37:53]
  • The “Away” single with Lord Kez became not just a continental hit, but broke boundaries for South African R&B:
    • Vaughn: “She’s the first female-led artist on a single for 10 years to chart the way she’s charted ... to compete with piano songs’ numbers on DSPs and on radio ... to cut through that is crazy.” [71:53]

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Process & Principles: Features, Camps, and Community

Authentic Collaboration

• (44:25–51:57) Both Julian and Vaughn reject the “big feature for feature’s sake” approach. Collaborations must be organic and musically honest.
  • Vaughn: “I don’t want to do something if it doesn’t feel right ... I don’t want to just have a feature because they’re big.” [45:17]
  • Julian: “To frame an album cycle around just placing other artists ... just tampering, watering down the sound of the actual artist—bugs the fuck out of me.” [47:33]
  • Example: Only adding Casper Nyovest to the “Away” remix after his verse truly fit. [49:57]

The Power of Real Camps

• (51:57–53:23) They champion the importance of creative camps and community—drawing inspiration from Dreamville’s methods:
  • Vaughn: “Dreamville ... the spirit of what they … how they set up also influenced a lot of the way we set up in South Africa. The integrity ... is super important.” [52:25]

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Navigating Business & Conflict in the Creative World

• (55:12–66:19) The transition from “business forward” to a balance of integrity and clear, direct communication—whether in artist relations or negotiations.
  • Vaughn: “I've learned you’ve got to pick your relationships a little carefully … I’m going to be the villain in other stories—and I’m actually okay with it, bro.” [55:34]
  • On open contracts and education:
    • Vaughn: “I open up the contract with artists and producers and say, ‘This is the deal. This is what you get. This is how it works’ … make it as easy to understand as possible.” [62:04]
    • Vaughn: “The training to be satisfied with landing in a place, knowing there’s sacrifice … that’s a part of the education process with artists and producers that I think is underlooked.” [64:40]

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The Globalization of South African Music

• (66:31–73:56) Discussion of the rise and spread of amapiano, DJ-led and dance-driven, and how South African sounds are now influencing the global stage.
  • Vaughn: “I’m so grateful for amapiano ... it's made South Africa break so many boundaries ... it’s not just a sound, it’s a culture.” [67:34]
  • The “piano” wave is opening doors for other genres—especially South African R&B, as with Lord Kez—while artists like Tyla bring the sound into new pop forms.
  • Julian: “What is the current sound of South Africa, and how will it infiltrate artists here? ... these hardened, defined walls no longer exist.” [67:15]
  • Vaughn: “The new craze, and I see it happening in the world, is R&B ... South African R&B is really climbing, and we’ve been part of that resurgence.” [72:48]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Joburg is actually quite a lot like New York ... People are on the move, you got to have your wits about you ... there's that kind of air of danger and hustle that's dope.” — Vaughn Thiel [02:07]
• “When you’re in the bush ... you feel so far away from everything you know ... there’s nothing normal around you ... you realize, ‘Yo, I’m nowhere near anything I can relate to.’” — Vaughn Thiel [07:55]
• “I was always an ideas person ... ideas have always been the currency that I operated in.” — Vaughn Thiel [16:36]
• “I don't want to do something if it doesn't feel right ... I don't want to just have a feature because they're big. It's got to work on the music.” — Vaughn Thiel [45:17]
• “We achieved together. Look what we did. It's undeniable. We made history, man. Your life is different now ... I’m cool with it not being like, I'm coming to your braai.” — Vaughn Thiel [59:25]
• “You gotta find ways to work through that ... in business, we all give up something.” — Vaughn Thiel [66:19]
• “Piano is really a culture—not just a sound ... it's attached to dance, language ... to think it’s just a sound is a mistake.” — Vaughn Thiel [67:34]
• "South African R&B is really, really climbing ... we've been part of that resurgence." — Vaughn Thiel [72:52]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:00 — Vaughn on first impressions and NYC/Joburg similarities
• 05:18 — How deep travel experiences forge true connections
• 09:02 — Shambhala’s significance and Mandela’s legacy
• 14:50 — Julian on the value of experiencing culture first-hand
• 24:09 — Vaughn starts Eagle Entertainment and the rise of Shane Eagle
• 27:36 — Vaughn connects with Bas
• 29:12 — Stay Low and Stain Entertainment's vision
• 33:02 — The pressure and meaning of doing it again ("Can you do it again?")
• 37:53 — What counts as a “hit” for Vaughn
• 49:29 — Integrity in accepting features (Casper Nyovest on “Away” remix)
• 52:25 — Drawing inspiration from Dreamville's community model
• 62:04 — Vaughn’s approach to contract transparency
• 66:55 — Amapiano’s legacy, current South African sound, and R&B resurgence
• 72:52 — South African R&B’s moment

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What’s Next / Closing Notes

• Vaughn is wrapping up his NYC trip, planning to see Times Square before heading to LA (“corny, but I got to do it” [74:20]), excited to lock in for studio sessions and continuing to break new ground with Lord Kez and the Stay Low team.
• Both he and Julian anticipate another episode—perhaps with Lord Kez—after Vaughn’s next creative journey.

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Takeaway

This episode is an insightful, humorous, and unfiltered look at what it takes to shape a music scene, build a label with integrity, and navigate the thrilling, sometimes messy intersections of culture, creativity, and business—anchored in real friendship and respect for the craft.

Transcript

[A]

Gone south has been a podcast about crime in the American South. But for our new season, we're widening the lens. Follow and listen to gone South Season 5, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your shows. So, anyway, let's start. Hey, everybody. Welcome to. I think this is episode 56. I don't even. I whatever. Of something wrong with the podcast. It's Julian. I do have a guest, and I have a guest that came. I say I want to bring more guests on, and what do I do? I go and get a guest that could not be coming from further away. If not Australia or Japan, geographically might be the only places that would be further from where you came from.

[B]

Yeah. 24 hours.

[A]

24 hours. This is Vaughn, a very great friend of mine that I met a few years ago in South Africa on the legendary South African trip with Boz. And your first time in New York?

[B]

It is, man.

[A]

How's it been, bro?

[B]

I love the city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I won't lie, Doug. Like, I feel like I'm. I'm gonna miss it. I feel like it's. I don't. To be honest with you, bro, I don't really like a lot of things, you know, and I don't really like a lot of.

[A]

You're already built for New York, man. Yeah,

[B]

I realized that.

[A]

Really adopted the culture, like, off the bat. I don't with anybody.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Not that it's like, you know, I'm always obviously appreciative of all the opportunities and the places I've been, but, you know, I'm always, like, very driven about, like, what I want to do and what I want to achieve. It's very rare that I end up, like, just, like, kind of sitting back and going, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, really being in the moment. And I feel like. I feel like as I landed, I was like, damn, I like this place, bro. I feel like I like it. It was a different feeling compared to other cities. So, yeah, so we've been amazing.

[A]

We met in Johannesburg. How is that home for you currently or where? Okay, so just to explain, because, I mean, again, I'm not like, I've been there. I know the lay of the land. But comparatively speaking, Johannesburg to New York, like, what does that experience, like, transition wise in terms of, like, is it the feel, the, like, the smells, the people like, how similar is Johannesburg? I guess in other parts of South Africa to this part of the country,

[B]

to New York to New York. Joburg is actually quite a lot like New York. I would say that in. In the Sense that like, it's. It's probably like the most cosmopolitan type city in South Africa. And the energy of Johannesburg is very similar to New York in the sense that, like, people are on the move, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like a hustling and bustling city and you got to really have like, your wits about you. There's a. There's obviously an era of like, danger and edginess in a place like Joburg, which I can also see that in certain sections in New York, like, you know, you've got to, you got. You just can't be an idiot. You're gonna get caught slipping. And then you, you know, you find yourself in a weird situation. So there's like that kind of like air of danger and hustle that's like in the air, which is dope. And then I think, like, that's quite similar. The other thing is, is the amount of different kinds of people. Like, New York is the kind of place that's very. Well, I mean, I've been here for, well, what, about a week? And it's like everyone I meet, they're not all. They're not really always from New York. Yeah. New York's the kind of place where it's like either you. You come from somewhere else or like your parents come from somewhere else. So that's similar to Joburg as well. People are not always like from Josie. Born and bred.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is similar. Here.

[A]

Are you. Is that where you did. Where were you born and raised now? How far out from Joburg?

[B]

So I was born in the Free State, which is another province in South Africa. It's a very. It's a very Afrikaans province, farming province. I was born there. I lived there for six years, my first six years of my life. And then I moved to Pretoria, which is not far from Job, to be honest. Pretoria is like a 45 minute drive, 30 minute drive outside of Job.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So it's not. But it. But then again, like, bro, you go 30, 40 minutes. The culture's completely different.

[A]

You go 20 minutes north of here and it's like.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, I grew up in Pretoria, but I've been living in Joburg for like, yeah, bro, since I was 22. So.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

It's been a while.

[A]

Yeah, I guess I. I kind of just want to establish. So we. When we met in. What was it, 2022.

[B]

I want to say, I think it was 2022.

[A]

So we're coming off of like the heels of COVID Covid. We were just kind of rambling ahead. I was leaving Atlantic Records. I was planning on leaving Atlantic Records, and I get it. And the reason why I ended up in Africa is I got a text from Boz on, like, a Thursday. He was like, bro, what are you doing next week? I was, like, working. He was like, do you want to come to Joburg with me? Said it. Why not? Like, when am I ever going to get a chance to go to.

[B]

Yeah, bro.

[A]

To South Africa.

[B]

So typical boss.

[A]

Yes. Right. So he was like, let's go. So I go land bunch of the homies, bunch of the fiends, a lot of which whom I'd met on that trip. Actually, like, falcons. I met on that trip. Yeah. Like, that was, like, my intro to quite a few of the guys. And then also, there's like, a thing where it's like, you're all the Americans. Well, I'm putting that in quotes. We're literally the Americans. But, like, being there tightens. The boss does such a great job of just, like, cultivating a group of guys that he knows will be. Get along and work well together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And he's just like, let's do it in a foreign country where it's new for everybody. So those bonds and roots grow, like, Pause. Like, deeper and faster than they would if they were to just come to New York. And we had a good weekend.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. Because you break down the barriers of, like.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Everything that comes with the city you from. You, like, in a foreign place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Need each other kind of.

[A]

Yes. And he sets up like this. And I haven't done a Japan trip with him yet. Have you done Japan?

[B]

No. That's my next one.

[A]

I got to do that same. Yes. But, like, the. And I'm just, like, studying because he's so. Because I've heard you speak about this as well, like, how good he is at, like, cultivating these groups and however they connect creatively or just, like, is friends or what have you. Like, then it's like, okay, and then here are the two guys that are going to be, like, our guides for. For this trip, which were you and Dale.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then I'm like, okay, now I'm establishing who the players are. And then we go immediately to the bush. That was my. I landed two hours later. We were at Shambhala.

[B]

Did we go to the bush before the festival or was it after?

[A]

I. I wasn't there for the festival.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

I. I came after the festival.

[B]

I remember that.

[A]

Yes. So I. I was like, you guys were already there, and everybody was Like, I could tell, like, this was like, the second wind of the trip. Everybody was kind of washed or, like, ready for the next, you know, week or so.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

And then I landed, and everybody's like. Some of them like, who the is this guy? And then I was like, what's up?

[B]

I actually remember that now. Yes. Because you. You. I remember you saying to me, like, damn, I never got to see the shows.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I just missed the festival. And then we go to Shambhala. And then, like, I. What was it like? We. We did the. The whole. The Beautiful Day ride. Everything was fantastic. And then we did the acid for the night ride. And I think, like, again, I was there for less than 24 hours, but I felt like after that experience, I was like, I. This is. This is every. I love everybody here. Like, I know it's like the drugs, whatever, all that, but it's like everybody here, it was such a shared experience, was all of us were having the same. The same, like, thing was going on in our minds chemically. Like, it just felt so good to be in that setting with those people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was a really emotional. I cried a lot. It was beautiful.

[B]

Yeah, man, that place. That place, even, like, without any kind of stimulants is already, like, a very. A very, like, emotional or, like, you know, it's a very powerful kind of place. Like, when you. When you in the. When you're in the bush like that or in the wild, you know, you, like, so far away from. And especially for guys like you that come, like, from the other side of the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You go to that place, you feel so far away from everything that, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's nothing normal around you. So you're just seeing, like, the mountain, the bush, the lions, the hyenas, the elephants, or whatever it may be, and

[A]

you realize, like, yo, I'm nowhere near.

[B]

Yeah. I can't even. There's nothing here that I can necessarily relate to in the way that I used to. So. So that already happens. And then obviously, man, if you have. Like, if you. If. If you, like, take some acid or you, like having a lot of drinks or you, like, smoking weed or whatever it may be, whatever, you know, people do is, like, that just, like, you know, takes the experience to the level

[A]

and for the listeners. Can you explain what this property is and, like, the significance of it and. Oh, yeah, how it works?

[B]

So it's a private game reserved, owned by the Steyn family, the Stain. The Stain business is a. Is a. The Steyn family owned A lot of businesses in South Africa, predominantly sort of across, you know, across different industries. Insurance, property, entertainment, etc. The. The Shambhala property is a private game reserve owned by the family. It's. It was very. It was built, you know, it was sort of bought and then built over a couple of years. And a significant part of the property is the Nelson Mandela family home. So. So, you know, the Stain family had a very close relationship with Nelson Mandela and during the apartheid years played a significant role in. In, you know, liberating South Africa. And when Mandela was sort of freed, you know, Dostain, who's the. Who, you know, is a legend and sort of rest in peace. He. He passed away recently. He's. He's the head of the family business. He kind of started the whole. The whole empire. He had a close relationship with Mandela and he decided to build him a holiday home on the property along with a, you know, along with sort of lodging and obviously a family house. So that's like quite a part of history. Mandela used to go there to, you know, to get away, take his family there. You know, he's gotten. He's got. It's so cool, man. Like, there's an office, the offices that, you know, that he used to sit in and work in and read his books in all still there. And they've left it very much untouched. It's still sort of the same thing. So it's a. It's a very special place in that sense. It's got a part of a piece of history in it. And then outside of that, it's, you know, I'm gonna. Maybe I get the math wrong, but it's 12,000 hectares or something along those lines. It's a big five game reserve. All the, all the major animals are there. It's extremely private. There's not a lot of people there at all outside of the people that work there. Very exclusive type. Type of place to get into. Yeah, and it's beautiful, man. It's like, yeah, you get to go on drives and see the animals that you would never really see in the

[A]

wild and you're a guest. Further, I just want to establish that, like, you're in their home, which definitely. Which is such a nuanced experience. I feel like American experiences are revolving around wild animals or safaris or reserves are like, very much like it's on our terms and they're just a part of the show. Whereas I'll never forget, like the, the first ride out, we just used to see a bunch of zebras and I'm like, oh my God. But then you find out those are like seeing a deer. Like they're everywhere. And it's like, well, this is their home. Like, we're the, you know, we're the ones that are the fucking outsiders here. And I did look back, like, as I mentioned, I have some friends that work in politics and you know, I got. Obama's have been. Spent a lot of time there, I guess, and like the Clinton family has been there as well. So this is a place that obviously a lot of history was a lot of history from the Mandela. But also even here I know it's a hot destination for political elites and people that, you know, want to get that level of culture and see, I think like the purest form of nature that we should have access to and can feel safe.

[B]

Hey there. I'm Kendra Adachi and my show, the Lazy Genius podcast helps you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. And you get to decide what matters.

[A]

I'm not here to tell you what to do.

[B]

I'm here to give you a new way to see. Episodes of the Lazy Genius podcast are full of compassionate time management tips and. And permission slips to do what makes sense for you. New episodes drop every Monday. Follow and listen to the Lazy Genius podcast on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, 100%. Like, yeah, a lot of, A lot of major. A lot of like, like you're saying a lot of like sort of prominent guests have been there. So even like recent. Yeah, like recent history sort of is also involved there. Not just.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Which is, which is dope, man. It's like. Yeah, it's a, it's an. It's an extremely beautiful place. It'll. It's definitely life changing, especially if you. You've never experienced it before because like you're saying you just pull out. You in there, you're in their world and you got to be safe though. It's like you got to be careful because obviously you in their world with a foreign object and you know, that's where a guy like Dale is so great because he, he guides, he. He's the guy, you know, he guides everyone through it. He kind of walks you through it. So you know when you do see the lions, you're not like worried about them.

[A]

Yeah. You know, like I never, Yeah, I never felt like my life was at risk or a danger. And I remember. Cut. Were you driving? That was Dale drive when we. At the night ride. At this point, we had taken the acid and it was. We were all in a very. Dale was driving, laughing mood. But we pulled into, like, the hyena den. And I remember we heard, like, the, like, them kind of their communication. And then you could just smell rotting carcass and the bones and you see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And mind you, the only source of light besides the sky, which, by the way, it was my first time seeing, like, that side that. Yeah, that side of the sky. So it was like my world was flipped. And then Dale is just holding this torch, a light torch. And you're just seeing. Yeah, just flesh, bones, ripped up, carcasses. And then he just cuts the light off.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then we're all just like, fuck.

[B]

Sitting in the dark.

[A]

Just sitting in the dark. And I remember being like, what?

[B]

And it's, like, really dark. There's no light pollution. Like, nothing. None.

[A]

That was the other. The light, the air quality, the light pollution. I was like, this close to my face. I'm like. I couldn't see a fucking thing. And to experience. Just to experience all of that, like, the visual stimulants and the sensory stimulant, like, it was just such a insane. I can never. I talk about it like, it just happened last week because that's how much this has, like, had left an imprint in my. In my mind and experiences. So I just. Again, I can't thank you guys enough for.

[B]

No, man.

[A]

Having given us that experience, bro.

[B]

That's our pleasure, man. Like, I think I also feel the same way. Even though, like. Even though I've been a few times there, I still feel extremely blessed to be able to do it. You know what I'm saying? And. And, like, for the Stain family to have set that up and. And open it up to us, really. I mean. Yeah, no, they don't really have to do that. So, like, it's. It's a big. It's a big privilege to be able to do those things. And then the best part about it is to do it for, like, dudes that would, you know, like, you guys, man. That's like. I kind of, like, always experience it for the first time through people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is the best. Because you, like, sit there, you're like, damn, this is so fire. Like, you guys will never forget this. And it makes me also really appreciate South Africa in new ways. It's like, that's really just our country, you know? That's. That's the kind of. That's the kind of place we grew up in.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's been really interesting here. The older I get and the more I'm in a position to go to different countries, experience other cultures for. For myself, rather than what I've been told. The perception that we have of communities, continents, countries, like, it's just so. Just not accurate or just, you know, is just so grossly like, we kind of just like, everybody's a. If you're an Other, you're a threat. And it's. It's. Our culture is the best culture, which, to be honest, what the fuck is American culture? Like, you go. It's like, well, these places are significantly older. They have much more of a rich history. There's. It just feels like I don't know necessarily where I'm going with this, but, like, the. The appreciation I've built for the culture, which then in turn stems to like, well, shit, I. Maybe the music is. What's. What is the music here? And like, what is that sound? And how is that defined and how is that changed over the years, which I know you've played a huge role in. And again, we've met through bars, and I kind of want to start with, like, how that relationship with bars started for you. I believe you said, like, around 2018 or so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, but I want to, like, reverse engineer. Like, how did that come about? And then, like, what is. You know, what have you guys been working on since then? And, like, what is your role in the ecosystem of South African sound?

[B]

Okay, yeah. Fire. I think. Yeah. Let me start sort of with. With. With maybe my role and work B into it because he's, like, a big part of my story, which. Which it's so crazy because, like, I started music, like, really, really close to how early I met. When I met B, it was like. Yeah, it was like, almost at the same time, but.

[A]

Oh, really? It was.

[B]

Yeah, it was really close. We're like, two years apart. Yeah. From when I did my first thing. Like. Yeah, this is crazy. So. So I. So I have a background in sort of marketing and. And. And media, outside of being a sportsman. I mean, I played soccer, football. You know, I've always been a sort of athlete, and it got me through school and university. And then when I was about 22 or so, I got my first sort of working job in. In marketing and media, and I did that for about three years, you know, and I did pretty well, you know, work my way up the ranks and, you know, to sort of play the agency role and sort of, you know, work with a lot of corporate clients, things like that. And then when I, When I turned about 25, 26, I was 2016. I, I, the thing is with me is I think, like, I've always been an ideas person. So, like, ideas have always been sort of the currency that I've operated in through how I move through my life was like, I have an idea and then I pursue it. And a lot of them sometimes don't work. A lot of them don't work. And then the one or two that do work, you, you know, you kind of, you kind of end up in that, in that space, so. Because ideas were always the thing that I was, I was doing even for clients. Like, when you got to think about campaigns or strategy, it's all ideas. It's like, strengthens a muscle. And I think When I turned 25, 26, I had recently just been headhunted by another agency to start up a digital division for them. And I think three months into that, I was like, I can do this for myself. That's sort of what the feeling was. And at that same point in my life, I was so disconnected from what I guess mainstream entertainment is in, in South Africa. When I say disconnected, I consumed it. And I've always been a fan of music, and I had my own opinions on music. I've always. Because of ideas, right? Yeah, I taste. My taste. And then I.

[A]

Which was what at the time you said, you disconnect. Like, what was it that.

[B]

No, I was, I was mostly. I grew up listening to, like, it was diverse, but, like, I, I grew up listening to punk rock. I listened to indie rock, and then I listened to hip hop. Hip hop then took, like, a massive part of my life, like, from when I was about 13, like, hip hop started shaping my world.

[A]

So who, who are the players? What artists at this time?

[B]

So I started off the, the first. It's so interesting because I was before, before 13, it was like punk rock, Blink 182, you know, good Charlotte, these dudes. That was like, really my, my vibe. Then I.

[A]

Great time for rock.

[B]

Yeah, it was so nice. I still got a playlist if I feel like it. I bumped that all day.

[A]

I got an old ipod over there that's full of. Come on, man.

[B]

I would play that. That kind of shaped me. And then I think, like, Eminem kind of came into the picture. Like, in my early, sort of early teens, maybe like 11, 12 years old, I started listening to M. And then, I mean, that was quite an easy, like, thing to happen. I mean, like, first of all, he's a white dude, and I'm like a white kid. And I'm like, oh, shit. Like, yeah, this dude. You know what I'm saying? And then coming from punk rock and the rebellious nature of that m kind of appealed to me at the time. I've also got that kind of a rebellious spirit. And then the guy that changed my life though, in terms of just music was 50. When 50 dropped, get rich or Die trying, that's when I was like, oh, I love this. Like, you know, I'm like 13, whatever. It is like 12, 13 years old. And 50 is like, dog, I can't explain it, bro. It's my favorite rapper. Like, I'm like, yo. So then that kind of like put me into the hip hop culture. And you know, growing up in South Africa, you grew up around so many diverse cultures, all my friends and everything. We like, that's kind of like what the spirit was. And we so, and, and what's interesting about South Africa just from a connection perspective is like, we're so part of global culture. Like as an African country, we were so connected so early. It's a very developed country in comparison to the other African countries around us. So, so we were like, we were part of it, man. We were like inside as much as, not maybe as much as, but like how New Yorkers would be or how, you know, guys from LA would be.

[A]

We were kind of just really invested in what hip hop was putting out and like, exactly.

[B]

And being and seeing it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So that shaped a lot of like the, the taste early on in my life and I kind of rolled with that. And then at about, you know, fast forward to like 26 years old, 25 years old, I, I, I end up, I was doing some stuff like with, with the radio station and, and through my, through working in the industry from a marketing perspective and with brands, I met a lot of people, you know, and I went to a, I went to a friend's birthday once who was like a product. Like he was a prominent like celebrity at the time. He was like a beatboxer. He was like, like he had won like a South Africa's Got Talents show. And he, he kind of invited me to his, his birthday because I was dating a girl at the time who was Armenian and he was Armenian. So we went to this birthday right, at a, at a, at a park. And I get there and we, we just chilling, bro. I'm doing whatever I'm doing, man. Like, I, like, I can't literally explain it, but the people there are like, I realized, oh, the people are like oh, this guy's an artist. This guy's an artist. Cool. We end up talking about music and discussing, like, our opinions on things. And there was this one guy there who's. Who's now a friend of mine. His name's J.R. jr. Is like a significant South African musician.

[A]

He.

[B]

He had like a history of, like, making really big South African hits. And he's always been, like a good musical ear. And he. Yeah, me and him connected. We just chatted. And then I think after that, he was like, yo, bro, please come to the studio in a week or two. I just want to chat to you. I was like, he's like, I like the way you think. I was like, okay, cool. Gave him my number. We chatted. One day after work, I went through to the studio, got to the studio, and the guys were like, chilling in the studio, like, just listening to music. And there was a guy there that was playing his songs. And I was like, yo, this is dope. Like, this is really dope. Like, it caught me, you know, And I started having the feeling of, like, when I feel like. I'm sure you. You know what that feels like, where something kind of inspires you, can be something random, but then ideas start, like, popping up in your head and. Oh, yeah, oh, I know how this could work, or I think this or have it. And that started happening. And that was like a thing that I. You. I always follow when I feel that,

[A]

like that instinct that, like, into it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So I followed that. And then this dude, I didn't know who he was because I didn't really watch TV like that, and I wasn't really into, like, I was saying the. The entertainment space, but he had just like been part of like this, like. Like this competition in South Africa, which was called. I can't remember the name of it, but it was like a hip hop show where they were discovering rappers and he was playing his music and it was rap music and it was really dope.

[A]

Making the band.

[B]

Yeah, something like that. It was cool. I can't remember the name now. It's crazy. Actually should know it. It's not good. But he. He had just partaken in that, like, competition. And it was like now the time. We, like, labels were looking for him and. And Junior at the time was running a label that he was looking at signing.

[A]

Got it, Got it.

[B]

And then Junior simultaneously was chatting to me to maybe be part of, like, sort of what he was doing with his label. And so I built her, started building a relationship with the guys. I Started learning about the music industry that way. And I was like, okay, this is the music industry. Learning from Junior a little bit, learning from working in the studio with these artists and stuff, and then still doing my career in the. In the marketing stuff. But then when I got headhunted for that agency at that same time, I was like, I can do this by myself. And then I quit my job. I took my last paycheck. I took the money I had. I started a studio in my house, opened a record label with the artist that I had met at the time. His name.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

His name was Shane Eagle. He was a rapper.

[A]

Yeah, I met Shane.

[B]

Yeah, you might get him on the ship.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So Shane Eagle was like. Was. Was the first artist that I worked with. And we. Me and him started together, we started a. A record label called Eagle Entertainment, Independent one. And then I started an agency alongside it. And the agency I kind of ran myself for a little bit, but that's kind of like how I made it through life. Because you can't make music money immediately with the music.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we needed to make the albums and stuff. Right. So I had this agency that within. I would make money on the agency side, cover my bills, and then like, fund a little bit of the label stuff.

[A]

Stay Low. Right? That's the.

[B]

No, that was Eagle Entertainment. Oh, this is all before Stay Low.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, this is before Stay Low. So this is like, we're talking now 2016 to.

[A]

Oh, you're right. Like, right before my mate pass.

[B]

Yeah, so I did that. And we dropped our first album in 2017, Shane and I. And with it with a. With a. With a producer called Shooter Coombs. He's. I still work with him today. He's my boy. And in 2017, we dropped an album. Debut album for Shane and bro, it just went crazy. Like, went crazy. We did really well. We won the South African Hip hop. South African award for best hip hop. Wow. We did, like. We did like, a national tour. We got a lot of, like, brand deals. Like, it was really. It was a really, like, crazy early success. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of the first album that I was ever part of, you know, and then that. Yeah, that led us to, like, open.

[A]

Good proof of concept.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, oh. Because the thing is, like. The thing is like, when you. When I sat around and I was looking at the music industry, I was like, oh, this is the music industry. I like, like it. It's such a. It seems so weird, but that's how I thought I went, oh, this is the Industry part. Like when these guys are talking about like how to do this and then I'm like, I don't think there's a lot of smart people doing this. That's. That's really what I thought. That's. Maybe I sound like an.

[A]

No, I agree. I. I mean a lot of the times it's like there's an artist that pops and then he puts his homies on. But like not to on the homies, but it's like you don't have like the business acumen or like the creative chops to like do anything besides be the friend of the guy who's in the music.

[B]

That's kind of like how it like felt a little like very, very unprofessional in some ways. And, and even just the thoughts I was like, damn guys. Like, this is not. This doesn't seem, for lack of a better word, like that difficult to put in structures. I mean it's quite hard to make it through the eye of the needle to, to really make a living out of this. But from the perspective of like, you know, building something, it. You guys are not following basic principles. So. So yeah, that was like what I thought and then, and then I did it and then we did all that and I was like, oh, like this, this idea worked, you know, so we, so we carried on with that. And then I actually, because of the success we had locally when Bass came and toured in South Africa in 2018, a December 2018, the same promoters put us on his tour as the openers. So we did three, four shows with Boss in South Africa in 2018. And yeah, but we just connected especially we were like, yeah, I was like, oh, this is my guy. Like, it felt like we knew each other for a long time and we had a great, great run. And then he, at the end of that tail end of that run, he. He said, yo, you guys should come. Come with me on tour to Europe in 2019. We're going to, we're doing like a whole bunch of shows in, in March or it was. Yeah, March to April 2018. 2019. 2019. Yes. So. So top of 2019, Shane and I ended up on tour with Bass and we did like 12 cities with him in Europe.

[A]

Great timing right before you got it all in, right before the world shut down.

[B]

Crazy, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, then, yeah, man. And then that was 2019. At the end of 2019, October 2019, I dropped another album with. With Shane. And then at the end of 2019, I resigned my shares in that. In that in the business. So I. I resigned my shares in the label side and I. I kind of moved on from. From working. Working with. With Shane and. And the setup and I continued with my agency.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where. Where I ended up having a business partner with on called. His name's Fred. Fred Kayembe. He's my guy. We've been homies since like I met him during the journey and then he kind of like partnered with me on the agency stuff. And then in 2020, because of the agency stuff that we were doing while doing the label stuff, when I kind of resigned my shares in the label stuff after like a personal and professional fallout with. With everyone involved there, I continued with the. The agency. And through the agency, we had secured sponsorship a couple of times for Rocking the Daisies. Yeah, like quite major sponsorship, like headline sponsorship tiers and stuff like that. And that's kind of like how we ended up getting into business with Dale, you know, because he kind of knew us and he kind of knew about the music side of things. And then in the. In 2020, literally.

[A]

Explain rocking the Daisies. We gotta.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Break down. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Rocking the Daisies is. Oh, I'm actually wearing it. Yeah. Yeah. Rocking the Daisies is like one of the festivals that stay in the stain entertainment business own. It's. Yeah. It's been around for 20. Going on our 21st year now.

[A]

Isn't it the largest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Music festival in South Africa?

[B]

Yeah, I would say that it's. It's one of the largest music festivals in South Africa. It's also. But it's also like the. One of the most boutique experiences, like, because it's like there's camping involved. It's out on a wine farm in. In the Western Cape. It's a. It's a beautiful experience. We're surrounded by mountains and it's like we've brought internationals that people have never thought they'd see in South Africa. We've brought them to the shores and. And they've performed and it's like. It's really. It's like a really whole weekend, three days of like, I gotta do it.

[A]

I'm so sad I still haven't done it. But it looks. I mean, you guys curate incredible.

[B]

Yeah, man. It's really dope. Like, it's, it's, it's. It's. It's definitely one of the kind. One of the, the. The things in South Africa that people look forward to every year is like the Rocking the Daisies festival. Because it's always a great experience, you know? Yeah. So We. We managed to do some business with them when Fred and I with our agency. And then in 2020, bro, that's when the world changed. And we were so fortunate because Dale. Dale kind of like, was already having some chats with us about, like, working together potentially. And he was. He was. He was already looking at starting, like, a music management business and potentially a label. And then, yeah, man, like, as Covert struck, he kind of sat with me and he said, look, I want to do this. The discussion was essentially, they would absorb our agency and then the team, and then the team would play certain roles underneath Stain Entertainment. Those roles were, Vaughan, you got to start up Stalo. And then Dale and I came up, obviously, with the name and stuff. And then Fred was sort of hitting up what was the creative agency still underneath the umbrella. And then we kind of both did that got our team started. And in 2020, we started the journey and we started, you know, working in the. In the music industry from that side. Do you have a dark curiosity? Heart starts pounding Horrors, Hauntings and Mysteries is a weekly podcast hosted by me, Kailyn Moore. Each week, I'll take you on a dark journey through terrifying true urban legends, bizarre true crime cases, chilling tales of backwoods horror, and more. So if you're looking to join a passionate community of the darkly curious, check out Heart Starts Pounding on the Free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, stay curious.

[A]

So you're tasked with heading the label side of things, right? Anr. Ing. And so you. You did. You said you had extreme success out the gate immediately with Shane Eagle, which, you know, led to a great tour. All this, like, awards and all this stuff when this deal is inked with Dale. And yes, you did it once. Like, what is. Are you. Like, what if this was a one off? Like, where are you on the confidence imposter syndrome side of things where you're like, well, it was. It may have been like, you know, it's like, okay, I started this, I'm on my own. Like, whatever. If it works, amazing. If it doesn't, it's me. But now this has been absorbed into someone else who's also, you know. Yeah, the success of this is important to them as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did that. How did that change anything? Did that affect your process or.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good. That's a great question. It. It did, man. It was, I think, you know, you know, you know, it's hard. It's kind of hard. Yeah. I'm gonna try my best to. To. To explain it, but like, it felt like. It felt like a really good opportunity. That's the first thing I was like, wow, this is such a good opportunity because I have this natural thing where I will back. I back myself. I just back myself. It's. It's. I can't really explain it, but, like, I. I will always back myself to. To not let myself down in the. In the. In the sense that I'm gonna. I'm gonna do my best, bro. There's nothing that's gonna. I'm not gonna go to bed at night knowing I left the stone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, unturned.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I'm gonna do it. So. So from that perspective, I was confident, but the pressure was different. It was like. It was like, okay, now it's that moment in your life, bro, where you gotta. You've got a really. Now, you might know something about yourself, but this is where you show it. You know, the first time you do something's cool, like, that's a breakthrough. But the second time you do it, it's like, I'm him or I'm. I can do it.

[A]

So you could argue the second one matters more, because the first, it could be a fluke. It could just be a stroke of. A strike of lust, stroke of luck.

[B]

Like, exactly.

[A]

Now. Yeah, this is like. Do it again.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah, it's like, do it again and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And do it now with, like, not just you living and dying on the sword, like, more. More people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and carrying that. Carrying that pressure. And it was like, wow, this is. This is. This is going to change the way my thought. My thought process was. And I really. This is where I really appreciate Dale, because Dale is, like, such an incredible, like, dude, bro. Just, like, as a. As a. As a. First of all, like, as a businessman, he's. He's really, really smart, bro. And he's, like, really, really good at, like, dealing with people. And I think he. He kind of read my. He kind of read me early on, and he was like, okay, I think I know how to handle the best this guy in the best way. And he guided me quite a lot on some of my decision making. And he also actually allowed me to. To. To make certain decisions. And I. And. And in hindsight, I kind of know that he knew they weren't probably the best. And I'm going to only learn by this experience. And I think, like, that's been, like, one of the things that I'm. I'm the most grateful for with him, because if it wasn't necessarily for him I don't think like I would have necessarily achieved what I've achieved now with ST Just without him sort of like creating those opportunities and guiding that a bit. So, so that, that, that from that perspective, I can't, I can't, bro. I can't sit here and say like. And then I showed everybody. It's like Dale really, like, Dale really, he really helped that like me tremendously in that way. Right. But, but at the same time, man, like, and this is what's dope because he, he allowed me to actually, like I have, bro. The Stalo, the DNA of Stalo is, is actually me. It's like quite entrenched in me. Yeah, he's guided a lot of the, the, the, the, the, the. The. The things where like structurally and V. Think about it like this and like understand like how to put this together and don't make that decision, make this one. And you know, things like that and, and, and, and. But he's never been the type of guy to say we're not doing that song. We're not, we're not creating this type of music. He's actually never done that.

[A]

Not, not, not infringing on the creative like at all.

[B]

Because he's gone. Yeah, he's gone. That's what you do now. Do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So from that perspective, I had to show up. You know, I, I really had to show up. And, and it's, and, and I didn't show up like always, like super like immediately, you know, I signed a couple of artists and I think like, once again that was a learning too. So the first artist I signed was Lord Cares. And then it was like a boy, a guy called Mars, baby. I still work with him. Legendary dude. And then I signed a couple of rappers and, and some different artists that were like in and around the industry that I'd always wanted to work with but that I had ideas for. It wasn't like I, I went and signed artists that would like immediately show a return. It was more like I had some ideas for guys and I thought like, we could make this happen. Yeah. And, and yes, there were some learnings through that. There were some ups and downs and some relationships that have gone left and some that have gone right. But during the period of 2020 till about 2025, beginning of 2025, I. I won two more South African music awards. One again in hip hop and one again in, in R B. So. So like, I think like from a credibility perspective, I was able to get myself like into that space again because I. We did it once. We did it. I've done it once, twice, three times now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the only thing that was like kind of like still sitting with me and I was like, man, I got to figure out how to do that one. Was like the, the real hit song thing, you know, like, like how to get it. Like not how to get a hit song, but like, you know, experience that. You know, it's like that's the one thing as an nr, you're like, okay, awards, okay, good albums and like restructured artists careers and like, like place them in position to be successful for a long time and things like that were important to me and curate like, really good albums and like, like be tasteful and, and all those things, which I still am today. But like, there's a part where you're like, can I do it? Can I do all that but also still maybe like, get a hit song?

[A]

Let's define what a hit is for you. Does this mean a hit in, in South Africa and or just across Africa? Are you talking about like a US Radio?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the dream is to have a hit that's global, like the US Billboard. But the truth is like, you know, if you don't, you got to first get one.

[A]

Well, sure, it would start there. Yeah.

[B]

100. Let me first like be realistic and like, tick that box. So for hit at the time would be. Yes, like a big South African record. Like a big South African record that ends up being a big African record. That's sort of like what, you know, what I, I, I, I really sort of wanted to figure out and, and, and, and see how, how that could happen, you know, because that changes your, your life immediately for sure, you know, for, for the artist, which was, which is super important to me, but then also for the trajectory of like a label that set things up differently. Right? So, and, and, and then, yeah, bro, in 2025, Lord Cares, I worked on a EP with her. I've been very intricately involved with Lord Keza's career. I've discovered her on SoundCloud in like 28, 19, 2018, before, before even Stella and Fred and I at some point were just like looking out for her while we had the agency, you know, because we really believed in it. When I heard her two or three songs she had on SoundCloud, I was like, man, I got that same feeling. Like that same. I was like, I need to find out how to work with this girl. And then over time, we ended up meeting through industry and then, yeah, first artist I signed. So I've been working with her very closely in terms of, like, shaping the sound and developing and working with. Working with, like, live performances.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, everything with man, everything. We, like, super good friends.

[A]

Yeah. We were at the. The bar the other night, and it was just cool to have you and boss talk pretty, like, intimately about, like, how deeply invested you are in her. Her career, but certainly her as a person as well. And just, you know, you could hear it, like, the conversation started with music, but then it, you know, dovetailed into, like, philosophy techniques that you guys want to employ. Like, you were like, look, we'll do this with the studio, but then at some point, let's leave to have her and the engineer have this, like, time together to do so. It's like, you guys are thinking about this on a level at which, you know, like, a great coach would approach a sporting event where you're like, all right, like, this strategy. I've seen work with this, but it's still new with her that you have to, like, figure out what works and what works best to perfect that process.

[B]

That's fire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. We were speaking about that. Yeah, you got you.

[A]

I absorb a lot of stuff.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's so true. I have those conversations so much with. With Bas, but also with. With. With Dale, with Fred, you know, it's like. Yeah, because. Because. Because, like you say, man, I've been super invested in the process, and. And that's what makes me so proud, bro. Because, like, I mean, this is, like, a small thing, but, like, I've always wanted to come to New York. Right. I've always dreamed of coming to New York. It's, like, just one of the places that I wanted to really come to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I had this thing where I was like. Because of the way that I am, I'm like, I want to come for a purpose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to come for work. I want to feel like I earned the chance to get there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And that's what happened this trip, bro. It's like. And it. And it happened through cares, you know, so it happening through, like, lord cares, getting the opportunity to come here, make music, and be on these platforms and stuff, it's like. It's a real special moment for me, because finding her on SoundCloud and going through so much together, like, to get to six, seven years down the line of developing and working and her putting in so much work, seeing, like, these little wins happen and seeing her get, first of all, our first sort of generational hit Song on the continent is. Is like a massive, A massive, like, moment for the label, but a massive moment for her. Her life's changed completely when we released the record in, in March last year and then the remix in August last year, that, that this last 12 months, 12, 18 months of her career has completely change the trajectory of her life, bro. Yeah, so, yeah, so then that happened, man. And I was like, damn, we. We got that one too. So, so now I, I suppose, you know, you don't just sit back and go like, I'm, I'm done. It's just like I've tasted these different things and I've seen how they work. And now my mind is like, okay, like now the important part happens. Okay, you've got in there. Okay. How you've got into those spaces. You kind of broke that little ceiling. How do you now, you know, set up to take advantage of the moment, but also ensure that there's longevity, you know? And I think like, that's the next step now, the next phase that we're going into. And, and, and this is also where like passes got involved again. And this is now what, where we can go to me and what me and him are working on.

[A]

Yeah. And again, from my understanding, like here you guys have been in the studio with, with Kaz working, which is amazing. And I know the plan is to go to LA for a couple weeks after here. And Boz built out this incredible studio home in Los Angeles, which actually I've been to his home home, but I haven't been to this, the other one yet. I would see. I mean, he sent me photos and videos. I've seen. I need to go experience this. But again, just to the way in which he cultivates rooms and creates creative spaces, it's just like, I know the type of amazing work that's being done there. I just need to like, absorb that energy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm super excited for you.

[B]

You got to go do an episode out there.

[A]

I. Well, yeah, yeah, 100.

[B]

That would be so good because there's so many people that come in and out there, bro. You could sit and like, do a couple of different interviews. Yeah, but it's amazing, bro. Like, yeah, boss and I have sort of started working on K's album. We've. I've been working on it for a while and then, and then, you know, boss and I just through the way we work, bro, like, I work on music with him. I worked on his last album and we've been, we've just been spending so much Time together, we get along really well as like boys and then even as like creatives and. And I think like, it just developed to a point where, you know, there was a. There was a few moments where Boss was like, damn, like, I'm inspired by this care's work, you know, and, and obviously after her catching the wave of. And having the platform of Africa, like supporting her now. Yeah, the opportunities are presenting themselves and, And Boss and I have just come together and we, we kind of like, I would say working in conjunction on executively producing her. Her next album. And at the same time, there's a lot of interest from partners and labels all sort of around America that we're exploring and. But outside of, outside of that, that kind of figures itself out at some point. It's really just locking in on the music and we're writing a lot of songs and we're doing a lot of different collaborations specifically from like a production and writer's point of view.

[A]

I was going to say, is the. Is the goal. I know we spoke about some writers you guys want to work with, but is the. Is the goal also why you're here to like, how much of it is to focus on like breaking this market? Do you want features from like American artists or like, what is like. I don't know. I mean, I know there's many, you know, goals with, you know, scaling up, but like, I guess I'm kind of saying like, kind of like when Burna Boy popped and then it's like you see his second album and it's like 15, like features from like all American artists. You're like, this doesn't feel. Yeah, this doesn't feel right.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I'm not, I'm not. I think that. I think what's the thing is like. And this is where like, you know, this is kind of something that I think people agree and disagree with when it comes. Comes to me. But I, I don't want to do something if it doesn't feel right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I don't want to just have a feature because they big.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Got to work on the music. It's got to make sense in the bigger picture. So. So yeah, it would be great. We do have some collaborations already. We have like a really good feature or two from, from some artists we really respect and get along with, UK and us. But it's, it's, it's. It's not like the, the main thought. The main thought is like, let's make great records and if a feature complements the making the Record. We'll explore it, you know, but I wouldn't say we're on a mission for that. Looking for something smart, soulful, and full of heart. I'm Gin Hatmaker. Post of for the Love, the podcast where we talk about what really matters. Love and family, faith and purpose. Every week I'm joined by incredible guests for honest conversations that invite all of us to live with more intention, more laughter, and more connection. Join us on for the Love wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

You know, what is that? Because, like, I. It always baffles me. Like, when an artist has their moment, it has like an album that performs really well and like, clearly the listeners and the audience is feeling that sound in that person. What is it? To me, it's like, you know, the people that operate as a A and R or as an exec, as a, as a. As a dale that don't believe in creative and just believe solely in the business of it and are like, cool, you're welcome to the big leagues. We're going to throw you in with the majors with like all other big acts and like, you just created a album that's gold, but let's just throw the top 40 artists at it and then make your second album. It's like, no, like, you're ruining. They liked this for what it was. They don't want to hear you. And like 21 savage. Like, they didn't. Like, that's not what they want from you.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

And I never understood that philosophy where it's like, I get it on a remix. A remix is fun. It's like whatever. Like, it's a one off thing. It's cute. Gives a track another life. But like, to frame an album, cycle around just like placing other artists just kind of tampering, watering down the sound of the actual artist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bob, just a.

[B]

Out of me too, bro. Yeah, I didn't really. Like, I don't like that. Like, it's like, it's like you especially like, if you think about it now, it's like you've built like a. You've built an identity.

[A]

You did it.

[B]

We know what's going on. Damn. It's like just because you throw someone. And also the truth is, bro, a lot of the time dudes throw big names and records and they don't go platinum.

[A]

No.

[B]

Because it's. It's like people that are consuming that artist are consuming a specific thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're not. They're not too interested in it being a collaboration with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With a bigger artist. It's not, you know, if it. If it complements it. So I'll give you an example. We. We dropped. Our hit song is called Away Right Away is the song we dropped in. It came out in March 2025. Came with the video, did well, Immediately started doing it was like, by far the biggest song she's released individually by. By June, July, one of the biggest artists in South Africa. In Africa, rapper reached out to us and was like, man, congratulations. This is a hit. I love this. Can I please be on the remix? And we were like, whoa, of course, bro. Like, his name's Casper Nervest. Casper Nyovest is legendary South African rapper. He's broken a lot of boundaries in the music industry for us. And when he reached out, we were like, cool. Like, absolutely. Sends him the verse, sends him the open verses. Gave him like three or four options to, like, work on. And then when he recorded it and sent it back to us, the truth is, we were. We. We analyzed it from a musical perspective, not just because it was Casper Neovest, because we would. And it wouldn't have been pleasant, but if it wasn't a dope record, we would have number one. We would have communicated that, right? We would have been like, yo, man, we just don't feel like it's working on the record, right? Even though he's a massive artist, we would do that because we would. That's the kind of principle that we founded ourselves on. It would be hard, bro. It's hard to like, you know, to like.

[A]

No, yeah.

[B]

Especially when you care about the music and you care about the artists. Like. But he put. He. Bro, he sent that thing to us and we were like. I was like, yo, this is. This is fire. It's landing. It's exactly what it is, you know? And you can tell that he.

[A]

And even through conversation and appreciation of the record itself.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Casper's that dude. You know, he. He listened and he was like, oh, I see the message. Yeah, I see what this is. I'm gonna approach it like that. He didn't just jump on it because,

[A]

yeah, here's a verse I had, and maybe it works in this cadence. Like.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah, you know, he. He took. He took it seriously. And that's why I got the utmost respect for him and his management. Because.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's why he's had such a long lasting and successful career. The dude has done things so intentionally, you know, and. And with his. With his whole heart. So that's. Now that comes out. And yes, bro, that thing's double Platinum in. In South Africa. You know. And it's like that's the combination of a good record with a big name artist is a great thing.

[A]

It's a great thing.

[B]

But not just.

[A]

Yeah, any.

[B]

Yeah, bro. Not just the name. Yeah, we've seen that not work.

[A]

I was talking to Boz a couple days ago about. He works pretty closely with. With Jungle. It's one of my favorite groups. And without naming names, he said, you know, they're recording currently and a lot of rappers have been wanting to jump on, jump on, give features, whatever, when they're open to seeing those things. And they've. He's telling me the names of the people that they've cut from the album. It's like it just doesn't. And he played a couple of the verses from him.

[B]

Like they just.

[A]

It doesn't work.

[B]

Yeah. Sometimes like it just doesn't just do things.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like they have such a unique, specific sound as is every artist. Like they really. You're really stepping into a specific world when you let me hear their records. And he compliments. That's why I love like to the arts. He just like when you compliment the world, like you don't. You don't try to force your way into a record. You do what the record guides you to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that's the biggest thing that a lot of collaborators miss. And I think that a lot of that can come from. I mean, not like I grew up in like the analog era, but just sending files and not being in the studio or sharing the room with an artist. Like you don't. I feel like there's so much lost in collaboration.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you're not. Which is why I appreciate like the home boss, you know, retrofitted the studio for in la and even the way J Cole records here. Like he'll. You know, obviously when you have the means that he does, he'll just block out the studio in Soho. And then like for weeks, everybody's basically just like living in and out of there. And it's like that's a proper camp.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you're connecting your can. Yes. It's like the music will. It's like. It's like the constant is the music will come. That's understood for sure. But it is so much more about this is that. I mean the dream build. They do a really good job of like creating that ecosystem and that connectivity that extends far beyond the music.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's obviously reflected in the product. But it's like this is so Much more about community than it is about, like. We need a song today.

[B]

Yeah, definitely, bro.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And I think like, that's also something like the spirit of what even we've. Like, I'm not gonna lie to you, like Dreamville. I've obviously been a Joe Cole fan since bro. 2009.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[B]

Like, everybody in the world clearly got sells Castle Million tickets.

[A]

I've never heard of them. No,

[B]

no. But, but, but I think like the spirit of what they. How they set up also influenced a lot of like the way we set up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In South Africa, we kind of. I kind of looked at them and I was like, man, that's kind of the thing. And the integrity, you know, the integrity part of things is super important. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's important to. And I agree with you, it's like, it's important to have things like that, like camps like that where the integrity is in place, where yes actually do connect. You do make songs. And it's not a situation of like, you know, this disconnected exchange. It never creates a vibe. People feel the emotion duck. People feel the connection in songs. People sometimes don't think it's that. But what this music makes people feel is what makes them like it.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, the, the impetus for that trip in South Africa that I did with Bob was he was like, yeah, I signed this publishing deal where I was going to go out here. But then you find out, like, it's so much more than, you know. You could tell he's like burying like, he. The lead, so to speak, where it's like, we did moma had everyday people. Everyday people out there, which we broke the floor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ye of the venue. But then also you find out, like, we're at Hallmark Studios and Boss is recording on, you know, some. Some of the days while we were there. And then I'm hearing him rap on this one. I'm like, damn, this is hard. Like, what is this? And then, you know, he's like, oh, I'm just doing some sessions for Revenge of the Dreamers. And then you find out. And then that verse comes out and I'm hearing him record it and he's like, you know, 100k, take them all to Paris, 60k, take them all to Josie. And I'm. I have a beer in my hand and I'm looking out. I'm like, in this, I'm like, this is what we're doing right now. Like real life. It's real life. Like, this isn't like, rapper fantasy shit. Like, I pulled up in the Phantom, and then I jumped out the helicopter. It's like, no, like, we just did what exactly what this motherfucker's talking about today.

[B]

Are you wearing a pirate shirt in Joburg?

[A]

In Joburg?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Getting a haircut on the balcony of the studio in Joburg. Like, it was like.

[B]

And then that.

[A]

Yeah, I think, like, that's it. But, like, then that's like, you know, I know other camps do that, but it's, I think, from my experience, because I've been great, like, as have you been, you know, welcomed by that team. But, like, it's. There's no unique playbook. There's no, like, one size fits all, like, playbook for this industry. And I'm just fortunate that I've been exposed to this way of working because I've seen how other teams were, and it's so cold, for sure. And callous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, yeah, it's. It is a business. Music is a business. It's a serious business. But when you let the. When you. When it's business forward, it can really be stifling, not just on the musician, but, like, I can't imagine from your perspective.

[B]

It is, man. It is a tough. It is a tough thing to navigate because creating and working with creators is intimate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's personal, you know, And I think, like, I'll be honest, I've learned that you've got to pick your. You've got to pick your relationships a little carefully, too. Right. As you mentioned, business is important, and business is important for the longevity of things. I think that what I've also realized, and I've learned it the hard way as well sometimes, is that I'm gonna have great relationships with some artists, and I'm gonna. And I'm gonna be the villain in other. In other stories. And I'm actually okay with it, bro. I've. I've kind of come to the conclusion that I. I need to have a fair balance in that. In that sense. I'm a very, Like, I'm. I can be polarizing. Like, as a person, I can have, like, an opinion on something, and some people will think I'm, like, a prick, and other people will be like, oh, that's a great dude. And I think, like, I've just. Yeah, I've just become. I've just become okay with, like, same. Some people thinking I'm a prick. It's okay, dog. Like, yeah, it's okay. I. I know myself, and I know the place that I come from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, when I'm talking about what I, you know, what my intentions are. But that doesn't always translate with other people. And I've realized, like, it's okay. It's okay. You know, it's okay. I must just create an environment where things can still happen even if I don't have the best relationship with the artist that I might be working on with at that time. But if the goal and the idea supersedes the, the need for that, I'm okay with that.

[A]

That was always my. And I don't like to talk about my old podcast experience much, but that was always my thing is, like, we butted heads a lot and it was oftentimes not spoken out loud. We'd have these blow ups and then everybody would go their separate ways. Then we'd show up to the recording a day or two later as if nothing happened. Yeah, I don't like this is extremely unhealthy. And I would, after a certain point, I just tried to cut through the red tape and address it. And then I was ignored quite often. But I remember saying multiple times after these like, arguments or blow ups amongst everybody, it wasn't like me versus the room. It was all of us kind of going at it. And I was like, we have to reestablish what is the common goal, which is to grow this fucking show. Like, become a better A, B, C and D. Like, let's. I would write out, I would bring out a whiteboard. Here are our fucking goals. Can we at least agree that this is what we're doing? Yeah. I'm not saying we always have to agree at every time and everything I say is right and everything you say is right. It's like this is the guide though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And can we at least agree that like, whatever we land on pushes us towards this?

[B]

Yeah, exactly, bro.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I don't mind confrontation in a process.

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

It's cool.

[A]

It's a part of it.

[B]

Yeah, bro. Like, I'm comfortable with that. I think, like, I've also developed the skill set once again. Dale guides me a lot on this stuff too. He's really great at like that type of thing. But over the couple of years, bro, I've just become direct.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I don't, it's like I just say it and sometimes that, you know, we go down like this terrible.

[A]

Oh, there we go.

[B]

Yeah. But I, I can't think of anything worse than like, not than like avoiding the conflict and, and, and ending up in this weird passive aggressive, like. Or, like, unproductive, like. Yeah, weird conundrum. I hate that.

[A]

Well, you're unproductive. It slows down. Why we're all here, bro.

[B]

I'd rather we go to war. And then actually we. We don't like each other at the end of it, but we achieve. Yes, I've done that. Yeah, we've won a sama. And I don't really have a relationship with the guy that I won Osama South African Music Award, the most recent hip hop one that we won. I don't really have a good relationship with a guy anymore. We. It's cool. It's not a problem. But we had our issues working together, creative differences, a few clashes, a few things. The process, bro. You know the process. Some people will never be able to see past the process. Yeah, I can. I have no personal issues, but I can feel that there's issues. But I don't mind because it's like, we achieved.

[A]

Look what we did.

[B]

We achieved together. Look what we did. It's undeniable. We made history, man. And your life is different now, which matters to me, but I'm cool with it not being like, I'm coming to your bride. Like, I don't care, dog. It's fine, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. Yeah, there's. It's crazy how that's just seems to be. There's a level of. I mean, like, even down to the title of boss's last stop. Like, we only talk about real shit. We're fucked up. There's like this, like, American culture is so much about, like. Like, swallow your pride and just like, let fester and don't talk to each other.

[B]

All right?

[A]

But when it's time, when it comes time to talk, it's just like one big blow up. It's so. It's so unhealthy. And I mean, I rail, like, the things that I. When you. When you go through these situations, especially when these things started to play out publicly for me, it's like you realize how much this is affecting your. Your gut health, your sleep, the quality of your sleep. I slept like shit for like a year and a half.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, why do I always feel tired and lethargic and just, like, gross? I'm just going to the gym, I'm playing basketball. Like, I'm doing healthy things, but I'm just like.

[B]

I feel like shit.

[A]

Feel like shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I'm like, oh. It's literally every time I step into the studio, like, my mind, like, my mood is just like. Yeah, it's like severance. I'm just like fog.

[B]

Yeah. Like out of your, out of body.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm Mark Solinger, producer and one of the hosts of the Moth podcast. For nearly two decades, the Moth has brought live storytelling to stages around the

[B]

world and to millions of listeners.

[A]

These are real people telling true stories from their lives. Stories about a lost family recipe, about working to free a wrongfully convicted man, about realizing you need to leave your May December romance. Stories that will move you, surprise you, make you laugh. Stories you can't forget. Join us, follow and listen to the Moth wherever you get your podcasts. So I'm just trying to prioritize those things with how I navigate moving forward. But I know I've listened to some of the stuff you've said a lot, but education for artists and producers in particular, knowing how to talk the business side as well as the creative, like, I know that that's like something you've really prioritized. How do you do that with the artists you work with and the people you collaborate with?

[B]

Open conversations. Yeah, yeah. Like even, like I, I, I. So especially on the business side of things, I mean, that comes down to contracts, right? Contracts are important for everybody to understand because contracts ultimately create the platform on which we build our relationships. When we have a disagreement, we can, we have somewhere to refer to, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the relationship happens on top. And sometimes you do a few things differently for each other as per the agreement. But that's because you have a relationship. But you need something that can be the ultimate guidance of what weather should go if there's an issue. Because usually it's worst case scenario stuff, contracts, right. So I like to be quite straightforward with that stuff and quite open with it. I open up the contract with artists, with producers, and I say, guys, this is the deal. This is what we get. This is what you get. This is how it works. This is what happens in this scenario. This is what happens in this scenario. And I try and make it as easy to understand as, as like layman as possible because I think like the over complicating of communicating contractual or legal things is part of the problem. Like.

[A]

Yeah, it turns people off intentionally.

[B]

Yeah, man. And it's like, and it's confusing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like some of the shit you read in a contract, you're like, why does it have to be said like that? So you can just say this, like, I'm sure it's just as binding.

[A]

Like, yeah, just like common street language and like this flowery bullshit.

[B]

It's so unnecessary. I'm like, your lawyers are full of shit. Like, you don't have to do it like this. But anyway, so just making sure, like, I get through that part because I think that that just creates the base. Because once there's an understanding of what, like, a base deal looks like, then start educating producers and artists and writers and stuff on industry standards and, like, how to go about it and where value lies, where long term value lies. Because I'm not the kind of person that walks around going, deals are bad or like, being independent is the best way or a label, a major is wrong. It's like, not always. Everything is circumstantial.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Every single thing, it must be treated as its own thing. It's like, if you go through your life going, being independent is the only way to do it and is the only way that it works is. Is wrong.

[A]

It's also just proven not to be true.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Many times over.

[B]

So many times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And same as with the label stuff. It's like just so I think, like, as a base, always being open to any discussion and then. Yeah, bro. And then. And then how I do it with everybody is like, explaining the deal and then. Then break it down into, like, a little bit more like, what's industry standard and then also getting, I think, a major part of educating people on, like, deals and the negotiation is being able to separate your emotions from it because you create stuff and you feel like it's. You feel as a creator that it's worth so much because it's a part of you, but then there's a part of it that's just commercial and it's like, it's not, though. It's just not worth what you feel it might be. And you got to get comfortable with being able to have those conversations. Otherwise, you could find yourself in a position where you just, number one, like, unpleasant to work with, and number two, never happy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You got to find. You got to. You got to be able to land in a place in a negotiation where you've given some, taken some, and feel good. Like, that's one. I think that's like a part of the education process with artists and producers and writers and everybody that I think is underlooked is like the, The. The, like, the training to. To be, like, satisfied with landing in a place, knowing this sacrifice.

[A]

But that's like, inherently against, like, an artist's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

DNA. It's like, I. If I'm making music or if I'm doing something, if I'm putting My effort into something I'm. It has to be my way because is. I'm the one. This is my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To sacrifice to them is like, well, why would I do that when I don't have to do that in my career?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, yes, that is, that is the challenge. That is the challenge. I think, like. I think, like. And then that's where you got to provide. You got to try your best to provide perspective, man. Like, I just try. Provide more perspective and be like, look, if you sacrifice X amount of ownership on these records, this is what you can get. And this is why this could be beneficial. Or paint the picture. And I, and I, and I. Like, sometimes a good way to think about some things sometimes is like, I go take two options. What are the absolute worst case scenarios of both options? And then make a decision from there. Or sometimes what is. What is the upside? What is the best. What is the upside here and what is the upside here? And then, you know, look at, look at, try and look at it from a place where either one of these options, you're definitely giving something up. And then what. How much do you value the thing you're giving up? And it's like, getting. Getting that conversation going with an artist is tough because, like, you're saying it's

[A]

like, but I don't have to give up anything.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but it's like, okay, you gotta. You gotta find ways to work through that. And that comes with some clashes. And that comes sometimes with like, you're an. But, man, it is what it is in the. In. In business, bro, we all give up something.

[A]

Yeah. So I wanna. I guess we can. I have no idea how long we've been going. This has been fantastic. But I do want to, like, wrap with. When I was in South Africa, the ama piano sound was well established there. But I remember specifically there was a lot of artists and curiosity from the deejays that were on our trip with us, like, to bring that sound back stateside here. And you can see its influx and impact here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is the current sound and of South Africa? And how do you think, you know, will that infiltrate this, you know, radio stations and the artists here? Like, what is the. Because it's clear now that, like, the globalization of music, these. These like, hardened, defined walls are no longer exist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And like, numbers speak for themselves. Popularity speaks for itself. And there's like a craving and a hunger for like, whatever the fuck you guys crack you got in the drums down there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it is Contagious. So, like, what is like the current sound and, and who should people be looking out for as well?

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, bro, I'm a piano. Is, is. I'm so grateful for amapiano. I don't make amapiano. I'm not involved in the production of amapiano. I don't have any amapiano records. Once again, bro, it goes back to integrity. I don't believe I would be. I don't believe I would be honest with myself and honest with South Africa if I make him a piano. Because piano is really a culture. It's not just a sound. It's a sound that's attached to a culture. It's attached to dance. It's attached to so many things. Language. And I think that a mistake that some people make is thinking that it's, it's just a sound. And they're not all, they don't always respect the culture of it. And yeah, I, I wouldn't feel, I wouldn't feel I'm, I'm doing the right thing, but if I had to personally do it. But why I say I love it and I respect it and I'm so grateful for amapiano is because what it's done is it's made South Africa break, just broken so many boundaries. Not only change the lives of piano artists and DJs and producers, but it's also like, created this wave of, like, attention, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then, like, you see a Tyler, like taking a version of like, piano inspired, like, sounds and then like making it a little bit more pop. And like the English and the translation in, in the States has worked really well for, I mean, she's one of the biggest. And then you got, you know, Afrobeat artists adopting some of the sound as well and bringing it, bringing it into the States because Afrobeats already was entrenched a little bit before the piano sound. So that's like, caused a lot of attention to South Africa.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and what is the history of it, though? Yeah, just if you give like a

[B]

crash course of it, like when it, where it was developed and how it

[A]

was developed, you just want to run through like a couple hits.

[B]

Yeah. So, so look, I'm, I'm not going to be able to pinpoint exactly where it was developed, but I, I, if I'm, if I might be mistaken, but it was, the sound was developed in pret area. Right. There's a guy, there's a guy that's accredited to it, but one of the two guys that have kind of been in. Integral. Yeah, the words integral in like, in like bringing it to the masses is DJ Maparisa and Cubs that are small. They're like very big piano producers and artists in South Africa and in the world. Yeah, they, they. The commercialization and the spread of it and the tension of it, they've really just brought. Those two dudes are unbelievable in the space in terms of what they've been able to do. So they've brought it across and they. They produce. And the thing is with piano is there's so much piano, bro. Like every week a new song is released, a new artist, you find an artist and now they get. The piano is getting to a place where it's developed and changed so much. It keeps on evolving. It was like a bit more jazzy. In lockdown is when it really took off. 2020-2019-2020-2018, 2019. It was there. It was like people were playing it, you know, so when you guys were around, it was like it was popping up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, and then, and then it like really started. When Boss was here earlier. Sorry. When it really started to pick up in 2020 when you guys came in 2022 peak.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was insane.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

I was like. People were outside, like, it just felt. Yeah, bro, it was crazy because I, you know, Bowser Tell Me record I listened to while I was here in New York and I was like, I get it, it's great.

[B]

But like when you see the culture attached to it.

[A]

Yeah. Like, you know, I have the luxury of going there and living it and seeing it.

[B]

I was like, oh, the movements, the collective movement. Yeah, you check what I'm saying. And I'm saying that thing is how it's supposed to be consumed. And now it's peaked and it's changed a lot, bro. Like, it's gone a little bit more Afro tech. There's different versions of it now, so it's finding its feet in terms of like establishing itself. But. But it's done a massive thing for us in terms of bringing attention. So. And then Tyler and then the back of Tyler also bringing attention. So now the next sort of wave and it's been what we've done with. With cares and. And Aware being like a, like a 90s inspired R B song with like a little bit of modern execution, bro. It's the first song and she's the first female led artist on a single for 10 years to like chart the way she's charted on South African radio. She's. She's the first R B song in the 2020s to like, chart the way she's charted. It's like to compete with piano songs numbers on DSPs and on radio. When you're a song that's not even remotely close.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To cut through that is crazy. Yeah. So. But. But it also speaks to a trend that's coming. So South Africa. What I love about the piano attention we've got is our hip hop artists, our R B artists, our singer songwriters. A lot more intention has come their way, you know, and that's great, bro. Like, piano's broken that door down and given South Africa a little bit of a credibility on an. On. In. On a. On a. Like, we've invented the sound.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now a lot of people are. Are finding other acts that we have talent, bro. We have so much talent in South Africa, it's unbelievable. I. I really do believe we have some of the best in the world in different genres. And I think that's sort of what's. What's starting to happen. So the new craze and I see it happening in the world is R B. R B looks like it's coming alive, bro. Like, all these R B parties, all these day parties, all the new. All the. All the. All the. All the things. And it's not too different to Joburg. Like, I landed here. I'm like, yo, I just see mad R B stuff.

[A]

There's a lot of R B parties la.

[B]

Like, everybody's doing a day party.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like R B classics. And I think that seems to be like a rising trend and a wave and. And in South Africa too. South African R B is like really, really climbing, which is. And I mean, we've been part of that resurgence with, With. With the hit song we released.

[A]

That's what I was gonna say. Like, I feel like. Because people are like the. The group that grew up with like, you know, Usher. Like, yeah, tlc. Like, we grew up in that R B. Like the boys to men. Like, these are the people that we listened to. We were younger and now we're like the people that are in charge of. Not in charge. Like the people that are in the positions to define what's cool. And we were tapping into the. That we thought was cool. So we're like, guess what's cool again? Like, we back. R B is back, baby. Like, it is funny how that works. It's like there are, you know, on whatever level, it's like you, You. You try to bring back what you know and what you love. 100 and it's really cool to see this, like, big push and resurgence for. And then you go to the parties, you look at the crowd, it's like, oh, these are literally just all my peers. Like, these are the people that I. It's our, it's my crew again. Like. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Like, kind of create the world we want, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is dope, man. And I guess it's always worked like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, man, this has been awesome. So what, what? Let me just run through a couple things. What, like, what's left on your New York bucket list while you're here, man?

[B]

That's my last day, so from here I'm going straight to studio. We've got like a block out for the day and the night, and then after that I have to go to Times Square. I just need to see it. Right.

[A]

Damn, you're right. Nah, you're right, though. You do, like, corny.

[B]

You do. But I got it. I got to do it. Like, you know, I got to go see Times Square, so I'm gonna pop in there quickly tonight just to see the, the vibes. And then I, I suppose, you know, with Boss, we're gonna end up somewhere.

[A]

Oh, I'll see you. Yeah, I will be there.

[B]

So we' night and then, and then we fly out to LA first thing in the morning. Yeah, and then it's. Yeah, then it's really studio, bro. Locking in. Yeah, we love it.

[A]

You're going to love it out out there. Like, may not. I'm not a big fan of la, but I'm so. You're going to love that, that vibe. So good.

[B]

I, I, I love, I love the, the, I love the work part of it. Yeah, I will say that. New York. New York, bro. I'm with the whole, bro.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I love this place, dude. Like, it's really nice.

[A]

A lot of distractions. It's easy to lock in.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But here it's like. Yeah. I mean, like, in this weather, there's many days where I'll go outside, like, for a coffee, and then I come back home at, like, midnight.

[B]

Yeah. You wanted to get us a coffee?

[A]

Yeah, that happens.

[B]

So much happens.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, man, I'm excited for, for what's next for, for you and Kaz. And I would love to have Kaz on here.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. We got to do that next time.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I'll see you tonight.

[B]

My God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Appreciate you, bro. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you, everybody. This is another episode. Something wrong with the podcast and peace. Love you guys. Bye. Nothing wrong with the pussy. Nothing wrong with the pussy. For years, Gone south has been a podcast about crime in the American South. But for our new season, we're widening the lens. Through deeply reported narrative driven stories, we're digging into the myths, scandals and power structures that still shape the south and in a lot of ways, the country itself. Follow and listen to gone South, Season 5 An Odyssey podcast, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your shows.