← Something Wrong With The Podcast
Something Wrong With The Podcast
SWWP #57 - Wendell Cole On His New Paint Series, Race & Politics
01:00:06
Loading summary
Transcript235 lines
- [00:01]
Podcast Advertiser
If you're the proud parent of a puppy or kitten, you know you can't pet proof your entire life. There simply isn't a sock drawer high enough or a couch cover thick enough. But you can pet proof your wallet with Lemonade Pet insurance. Whether it's an unexpected accident or a routine checkup, Lemonade can cover up to 90% of the bill. Plus they can handle claims in as little as two seconds. So before you turn into a complete helicopter pet parent, get a quote@lemonade.com pet.
- [00:35]
Julian
Hey everybody, welcome Back to episode 57 of Something Wrong with the Podcast. It's your boy Julian. I am back with another guest. This is a really, really great episode. He actually just left. I'm here to just do a quick intro before we get into the episode, but I don't want to take up too much of your time. Today's guest, he his name is Wendell Cole. He's a incredible artist that I met years ago. A friend of mine in college sent me some of his pieces on Instagram. I DMed him. We had a little like Instagram back and forth and finally met at a gallery and just over the years have always stayed in touch and I'm super happy to have him finally on. I do want to just read a little brief about him just so you can kind of understand who he is. Brooklyn born, self taught multidisciplinary artist based here in New York. He grew up in Flatbush. His work explores themes of the black diaspora and cultural identity politics. Drawing from inspirational figures such as Basquiat, Henry Taylor, Fred Hampton. His work aims to uplift black and brown communities. He's also working on a current series, what does the American flag mean to you? Which is a question that a woman asked him at a gallery showing. He's had some amazing exhibits. He was at a gallery. He has his art shown at a gallery in Dubai. He's had his art shown here in New York over the last couple of years as well. And we had never spoken about art to this capacity. Then the conversation really opens up to social and political identity and this is where we really begin to find common ground and ended up becoming quite a therapeutic and like necessary conversation that I've been looking to have in person for quite some time and was unexpected. I didn't expect it to happen today with him. So I'm very happy with, with how this episode went and yeah, please enjoy this episode with myself and Wendell. Wendell, man, I'm so happy I'm just call you Wendell just to spite you. Right? Man, I'M so happy to have you, bro. This is. I feel like a long time. A long time coming.
- [02:46]
Wendell Cole
I think I still have my dreadlocks. That was probably like, you definitely did five years ago.
- [02:51]
Julian
Really?
- [02:52]
Wendell Cole
No, 2021. 20, 20, 20, 20. Maybe 2022.
- [02:59]
Julian
Yeah, actually. Yeah, you definitely had your dreadlocks.
- [03:03]
Wendell Cole
So it's like 2022.
- [03:04]
Julian
Yeah, man. Well, I'm excited. So, yeah, I've heard, I guess, like, the people listening. The piece over here that the. That has been in my apartment for years now. This is one of your pieces from. What was this series called? At this point, I don't even have this. This is one off my.
- [03:23]
Wendell Cole
The one I'm working on right now is, like, first series. But, yeah, this was just like a one off that turned into, like, a bigger painting. But then I ended up, like, going over that painting. But yeah, this was like a little drawing that I did for like, a larger painting I was working on.
- [03:40]
Julian
Yeah. So I guess talk me through, like, your. I read a brief interview that you did that you don't come from, like, a family of artists. You just. This is just something that you just took on yourself. How does that come from just, like, you know, doing something as a kid or as a hobby to like, I really want to do this and take this seriously?
- [03:59]
Wendell Cole
It's funny because just recently I found out my dad wanted to be a painter.
- [04:05]
Julian
Oh, shit.
- [04:06]
Wendell Cole
He told me that, like, super recently. I didn't know that. And he also did photography. Like, when. Like, even maybe before I was born. So it's funny. Yeah, I guess I get it from him, but I was always, like, into arts as a kid. And then in college, I took a photography class, and the. I was the only one that took the class, like, seriously. And the professor ended up gifting me her camera, like, one of her cameras. And then that kind of, like, sparked my. My interest in photography.
- [04:36]
Julian
Where was school?
- [04:37]
Wendell Cole
Also in New York, in Staten Island.
- [04:40]
Julian
Staten Island.
- [04:41]
Wendell Cole
It's like three hours getting there, three hours getting back home. So it was like, yeah, it was a mission. But, yeah, she, like, sparked that interest of photography in me. And then from there, I started working at Milk Studios in the city. Ended up meeting Milo, one of my best friends, who, like, inspired me to, like, start doing collages and getting into painting. But I didn't start painting until, like, 2020.
- [05:09]
Julian
Oh, really? I was gonna say, how much of the pandemic changed your approach to art as a. In general? Because, I mean, you weren't probably weren't taking photos as much at that time?
- [05:21]
Wendell Cole
No. So, yeah, so I was taking photos and then ended up doing collages. And then I had to like pick one or the other pretty much. Cause photography, especially like film photography. Yeah, it's pretty expensive, so it's like, I'll stick with painting.
- [05:35]
Julian
What was the first piece? You're like, oh, this is something that I'm proud of that I wouldn't even mind. Not only am I proud of it, but I wouldn't mind sharing this with other people because I feel like there's like those phases of like when I write, it's like, all right, like, I know I can do it, but I still don't feel comfortable sharing this with
- [05:51]
Wendell Cole
people or, you know, I think back then I think I was just like comfortable with showing whatever. Like, looking back now, I'm like a lot of it was like, kind of like shitty whatever. But I was growing as an artist at that time. But like, I was pretty comfortable showing whatever. I feel like it wasn't up until I'd say 2022 when I really felt comfortable with making or with what I was making as far as like, painting wise.
- [06:20]
Julian
What changed other. Or is it just a matter of like, experience and just building the style
- [06:25]
Wendell Cole
that you, like, had a show in the city, like, actually not too far from here. I think you were there.
- [06:31]
Julian
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:33]
Wendell Cole
And I didn't sell any of the paintings at that show. It was like maybe like five paintings. I was really excited because I wanted to sell these paintings and like, pay off, like all the money that I spent on renting the space or whatever and like buying all the materials. Ended up not selling anything. A lot of people said that they were going to buy, didn't end up buying. So I was really depressed and at my lowest. And from there I just went over all the pieces that were in that show and just like created all these new paintings. And I feel like after that, like whole like, show and like, depression episode, whatever, I feel like I made some of my best works.
- [07:14]
Julian
So do you how much of that is like you buying in on the. Maybe not like the struggling artists archetype, but like, you have to be down at your lowest to then make the. The best that you're capable of. How much of that do you feel is like a. I think it's.
- [07:31]
Wendell Cole
I think it's unfortunately true.
- [07:34]
Julian
There's a lot of truth.
- [07:35]
Wendell Cole
There's a lot of truth because I feel like a lot of my favorite artists made some of their best works when they were like, depressed.
- [07:41]
Julian
Yeah.
- [07:41]
Wendell Cole
Kid Cudi, Mac Miller, Faces that album. Mixtape.
- [07:46]
Julian
Yeah.
- [07:48]
Wendell Cole
Crazy. Even to today, I still listen to it like that.
- [07:52]
Julian
Yeah. Timeless. Yeah. Well, let's I guess go a little further back when you started painting, I'm sure, like, as a kid, high school, even college, like, you had people that you liked artistically, music wise, but also painters, sculptors, whomever. Like, who were your influences once you started picking up the brush?
- [08:10]
Wendell Cole
Basquiat, of course. Cause I really liked Carl's, like, work and George Condo. Yeah. I think those three were, like, really inspiring for me. Or they really, like, inspired me.
- [08:22]
Julian
Yeah. Building out a series like the ones you painted over. So these pieces go up. You painted over them on what, what change? Like, what was the thing that you were like, these aren't it. At least to a buying audience, a very small community of a buying audience. I was literally from the physical room. Like, what were you like, I know what I need to do that's different to then make these something that I, you know, will get sold.
- [08:44]
Wendell Cole
I think them not selling made me realize.
- [08:46]
Julian
Yeah, yeah. But like, what did you identify that chain? Like, all right, bet V2 of this is going to have this thing that'll then lead to.
- [08:54]
Wendell Cole
I think I was just in the zone, really. I just, like, needed to get my frustrations out. And painting over them was like, the only.
- [09:04]
DSW Advertiser
At dsw, we ask the important questions, like, what shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season, or just planning the ultimate vacay, the right shoes can make or break an rsvp. So own the moment. You've got big plans, and we've got just the shoes at the perfect price, of course. Get ready to get ready with Designer Shoe Warehouse. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today and let us surprise you.
- [09:32]
Wendell Cole
We waited to do it, I feel like.
- [09:34]
Julian
So then talk me through, like, because during the pandemic, obviously the insane race division, I mean, it's always there, but, like, it was at its, I think at its height, one could say, during the pandemic. And your art in itself is very reflective on, like, the black experience, Brown and black experience in the United States. How much of, like, what was going on publicly in the political, social sphere, like, led to you actually physically doing it?
- [10:02]
Wendell Cole
I think during that time there was, like, a lot of, like, protests going on. I was a participant in most of those protests in the city. And just like, seeing what was going on in social media, like, quotes from, like, all these black leaders and, like, I think that, like, inspired me to, like, try and, like, communicate like, what was going on through back then, what I was doing was collages, so I was trying to, like, do that, like, with, like, vintage, vintage, like, Ebony magazines and stuff like that. And just like, trying to, like, because I was still fairly new to painting, so I wasn't, like, able to communicate through paint just yet how I was feeling, but through collages and, like, images, I was, like, able to, like, piece together how I was feeling and how I wanted to communicate, like, what was going on during that time.
- [10:56]
Julian
Yeah. And even now, I'm looking at the latest series that you're working on. What is the American Flag means you when you're making these pieces? It's like six pieces total. There will be six.
- [11:06]
Wendell Cole
You've done six total? Yeah, I've done five.
- [11:08]
Julian
Who are you speaking to or, like, what's your research process or conversations that you're having that are leading to the actual canvas to build this series?
- [11:18]
Wendell Cole
I know one of them is, like. Is kind of like a self portrait of me sitting down, like, with the American flag behind me, and there's, like, dead flowers on the table. That's just like, what's been going on, like, currently, like, with who's sitting in office right now, and just, like, the state of, like, the world right now. So, like, different stuff like that, like, inspired. Inspired this. This series.
- [11:45]
Julian
And what about. What's what about?
- [11:46]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, that one, it was a photograph that I saw on Instagram of this black kid holding an American flag. And I just, like, made like, this was like, the first one that I started for the series, and I took that as inspiration and just, like, kind of, like, made the flag a bit tarted, like, ripped up.
- [12:06]
Julian
You had the idea, but then how much of it is flooded with. Do you just let the brush go right to canvas, or do you, like, do a lot of, like, reading and research beforehand of how you want to really create this messaging?
- [12:20]
Wendell Cole
I think before, I would just, like, go straight to canvas. Now with this series, I like, would go on Photoshop and, like, kind of, like, figure out, like, how I want everything to look. So I was like, with the one of the self portraits of me sitting down in front of the American flag, that's like, a photo of me that I took. And then I went on Photoshop and, like, kind of, like, pieced together, like, how I wanted it to look. And then from there I went to the canvas pretty much. So it's, like, planned.
- [12:49]
Julian
Yeah. So the. Okay. The process is like, what's so on Photoshop, is it? You're just Physically taking the photo of you placing it where you'd want on the canvas. Is there any, like, I know a couple of artists that do, like, stencil sketches beforehand or just, like, object placement of, like, how they want it to be? Like, is that kind of.
- [13:07]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:09]
Julian
From, from, from, like, idea to Photoshop through that whole process. What does that timeline look like for you?
- [13:17]
Wendell Cole
That one. That one took maybe like two days. That one was pretty easy to take two days, but some take way longer than others. Like the one I'm currently working, the last one that I'm working on, it's taken me like, maybe a couple weeks now.
- [13:34]
Julian
What, what changes? Like, what's the difference? That takes one longer than the outside
- [13:40]
Wendell Cole
of, like, size, I would imagine, I think also feeling. Yeah, I feel like, you know, when something is done, like when a painting is completed or I know I feel like when something's completed. Other times, like, I think, like, I need to, like, add more to it, which I don't know. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing because sometimes it takes me a really long time to, like, complete a work. But now I'm thinking more because, like, before, like, I would just post things to Instagram without, like, really, like, just to, like, feed my feed.
- [14:12]
Julian
Yeah.
- [14:13]
Wendell Cole
Or like this. That pressure to, like, always be like,
- [14:15]
Julian
oh, I'm working to be active.
- [14:17]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, exactly.
- [14:17]
Julian
What is that? I'd imagine, certainly for a painter which is like a medium that is, like you said, time consuming and a lot of thought goes into the idea through. If you're making a one off a series through the project to. Posting is like, the last thing you're thinking about throughout this whole thing. Like, how do you as an artist in 2026, like, juggle that? What does that look like?
- [14:41]
Wendell Cole
Just Instagram.
- [14:42]
Julian
Yeah. In terms of, like, keeping your social media active. I see a lot of artists that do, like the time lapse videos or that. Do you ever feel like you need to, like, all right, I'll put the fucking camera in and we'll do the thing. And everybody can see my process from start to finish. Like, do you ever feel the urge to, like, give people that level of access?
- [15:02]
Wendell Cole
I've done that before. I ended up deleting it, but I've done that before.
- [15:06]
Julian
Insert here.
- [15:07]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, I've done it before.
- [15:08]
Julian
I feel you, man.
- [15:10]
Wendell Cole
Tough as with this series as well. Like, I took a month break from Instagram, which is kind of hard because I'm like. I feel like most of us are,
- [15:19]
Julian
but we're like, I can confidently say I'm addicted to it.
- [15:22]
Wendell Cole
And you're on. You're all my close friends. So you see me, I'm always like, yeah, posting something on Instagram. So, yeah, I took a month break from Instagram, which was nice, and, like, helped me, like, focus on these works.
- [15:36]
Julian
Yeah. Do you ever. Is. Is. I know, like, a lot of comedians that I listen to and friends with always say they try to stay off when they're in the process of working because they don't want to be influenced or, like, hear something that they don't want to be accused of taking a joke or lifting something from somebody else's content. Does that happen in the artist world where you're like, damn, like, the idea is there, but you can be like, that. How that's done? I like, this. Is that something that, you know, I could be accused of jacking or something? I don't fucking know.
- [16:06]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, I feel like I've seen. I've, like, when I was doing collages, I saw, like. I saw people, like, kind of, like, use, like, kind of, like the same images. I was using them out, but they're
- [16:20]
Julian
like, which edition of Ebony is that? You're like, oh, you're like. You're like, oh, it's this one. They. The next day they're posting this.
- [16:25]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, but it's. Yeah, I use Instagram just, like, go through, like, vintage photos, like, black and brown people, and use that as inspiration. So it's tough with. Yeah, it's tough with Instagram because I want to use it to find inspiration for, like, new works. But also, like, I get stuck in, like, reels or like, oh, yeah, the doom scroll reels. Get. Yeah, get stuck doing that or just, like, watching people's stories or, like, there's so much to do on Instagram. It's like, do you.
- [16:58]
Julian
Do you use, like, a Figma or a Pinterest or to have, like, what is your. What does that mood board look like beyond, you know, saving stuff as, like, a. I would assume, like, in a collection On Instagram, do you have, like, a large space where you can see everything as a whole?
- [17:12]
Wendell Cole
I know. I just have everything saved onto my laptop. Well, yeah, I guess I have everything saved on my laptop and also use Tumblr.
- [17:19]
Julian
Tumblr. Keeping Tumblr alive.
- [17:22]
Wendell Cole
So, yeah, I use Tumblr and Instagram just for, like, you know, that thing
- [17:27]
DSW Advertiser
where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it.
- [17:32]
Julian
Yeah.
- [17:32]
DSW Advertiser
So do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over, or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Find shoes that get you at prices, that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you.
- [17:56]
Julian
I. In reading about the series that you're. You're currently working on, you said it sparked. Started from a question that a woman asked you at a show.
- [18:04]
Wendell Cole
Yeah.
- [18:06]
Julian
And I imagine when you're. When you're showing your work, and again, I'm keep using comedy as a reference or even musicians as a reference. It's like, damn, like, I put out all my energy into this thing, and now it's out there and people are consuming it, and now it's like, fuck, like, I got to start from scratch. Are you. When you're at the show, are you looking for that next, like, spark? When someone comes up to you or asks you something, are you just, like, trying to enjoy the moment, but then an interaction like that happens, and you're like, I got, like, when did that click? When did you go home, sleep on it, and wake up and you're like, that was an interesting question. Or did you know, like, that moment that this is something that you need to figure out the answer to?
- [18:42]
Wendell Cole
I knew in that moment because when she asked me, I was like. I was like, oh, man, I don't know how to answer because. Because sometimes I just make works without really, like, yeah, there's thought behind it. But, like, sometimes I just, like, am in the zone and just, like, I make something. So, like, in that moment, I was like, wow. I never really gave much thought to, like, that question of, like, what does the. As a. As a Afro Latino, like, what does the American flag mean to me?
- [19:11]
Julian
Yeah. Do you feel like a part of you as an artist has to take on the role of being the arbiter of, like, communicating this through your art inherently, like, from what I. From what I love about all your artwork. It is, like, social and political commentary. And I think it's really hard to ignore who you are. But I always have this thing that I talk about with my therapist is, like, how much of who I am and what I care about is who I truly am versus, like, what I'm told to care about. So I always, like, toggle through that. It's like, well, I am these things, and I identify as these things, but it's like, people are also Looking for me to talk about these things because of how I look. You ever feel like that, like, you have to have an opinion or hold something dear to your artistry that you're not even sure if that's. You know, how do I. I don't know.
- [20:07]
Wendell Cole
Like, I feel that way for sure. Like, I feel like I. At. Well, even at this point, I feel like I can't make anything without it being political or just like. Yeah, about, like.
- [20:19]
Julian
Like, if you painted, like, a flower, it'd be like. Oh, yeah, exactly. The history of that flower is actually. It's like, man, it's a flower.
- [20:28]
Wendell Cole
Yeah. So I don't know. I mean. Yeah, I'm in, like, a tough place now, I guess. I don't know if I put myself in a box. I don't know if you can say that. But I definitely feel the pressure with each work to, like, make a comment on, like, whatever's going on, like.
- [20:45]
Julian
Yeah. So in the. Throughout the process of doing this new series, have you answered that question for yourself?
- [20:53]
Wendell Cole
That's funny. I have. I feel like I'm still working it, but I feel like there's so many answers to that question. It's like.
- [21:00]
Julian
Yeah.
- [21:01]
Wendell Cole
That I'm tackling with this. This. With this series that I just don't have one, like, single answer for it.
- [21:11]
Julian
I feel like. What have you. What themes or, like, answers have you explored throughout the. The process?
- [21:18]
Wendell Cole
One. The one that I'm currently working on now is about, like, the food desert and, like, black and brown, like, minority neighborhoods. So it's like these two kids and, like, in front of the projects with, like, Ronald McDonald behind them. It's like a. It's a cool painting. I haven't finished it yet, but it's just, like, talking about, like, growing up and, like, not seeing, like, a produce. Yeah. Or like, there was, like, in my neighborhood, there was a salad bar that was, like, open for, like, maybe less than a year maybe. And now it's like a deli.
- [21:56]
Julian
You grew up in Flatbush, and Flatbush.
- [21:58]
Wendell Cole
So, like, that salad bar was always empty, and I always walked past it. And then now it's a deli, and now it's, like, always crowded. Always people outside, always people inside. It's, like, kind of funny.
- [22:09]
Julian
When I taught in Chicago, it was quite strikingly obvious that it was, like, in a food desert, but, like, also by design. And. Yeah. Just obviously the school didn't have, like, money to supply great nutrition for the students. But then you'd see, like, what they would bring from home if Anything at all. And it was just like. It's just, it's. And I remember one time in particular we took a field trip from. I taught on 63rd in Michigan, so. Which is like off, like a red line kind of far enough on the south side. Like, we're beneath UChicago's campus, which is like 37th, like Sox Avenue, whatever, 35th. And. And even further north is where, like, the aquarium is. Shedd Aquarium on the water. Beautiful. We took a bus. I remember getting in the bus with the students and we're driving up and it's like a fucking 15 minute, 20 minute drive. These students see the skyline of the city, see the water, and they're like, enamored. Like, I've never seen this part of the city. They're like, as if this was their first time visiting the city that they live in. And I remember that. And these middle school kids, I remember just being like, oh, shit. Like, this is. Damn, that's sad. Like, this is like, all. Obviously it's by design, but it's like so, like, prolific that even in. At the time, what, 2015, these kids still didn't even have access to the city that they really belong to and live in. This is their fucking home. And they're looking. They're literally looking out the bus window, like, as if I just brought them to New York for the first time. And I'm like, you guys live here. It was like, so sad and just like, seeing. There's just like the small commentary that they would make, like, just noticing little things and just like seeing people walking around. They're like, oh, people, like, walk around. Like, I'm like, it's Chicago, man. They're like, yeah, but it's like in their neighborhood. I remember, like, we, you know, the school ends, we're pushing them off the block to go home or, like, get picked up or get the fuck home before sun goes down. Because, like, shit, you know, a lot of shit happened on those blocks. But yeah, it's just. There's so many cities like that that are just by design built to just sequester the black and brown communities from what people would know as the city itself. Yeah.
- [24:25]
Wendell Cole
What is. What does American flag mean to you, dude?
- [24:28]
Julian
I don't know. I. It's so fucked because, like, right now, nothing.
- [24:37]
Wendell Cole
Yeah.
- [24:39]
Julian
And honestly, to be honest, not that it ever really did mean anything to me, I. Again, through therapy, like, I've talked a lot about my identity being, you know, black and Middle Eastern. And it's, let's be honest, like it's never a good time to be black in this country, and it's since 2001. It was never a good time to be Middle Eastern in this country. Like, I'm. I'm half Lebanese. We just got a hundred plus bombs dropped on my. Where my family's from in 10 minutes.
- [25:06]
Wendell Cole
And.
- [25:06]
Julian
And then it's as if, like, you know, people here like Coachella, and I'm just like, what the fuck? It's like, dystopian. I'm like, how? I was talking about this with a friend and I wrote about it yesterday. I was like, there's a weight. I feel like the world is constantly under a pressure of a weight, but that weight feels different based on, you know, what. What pressures matter more to you? So right now, like, the baseline weight of, like, white America is like, whatever, like, we're fucking ripping at Coachella or just like, you know, if there's, like, personal family struggles, like, whatever, that's where we'll feel it. But I'm like, yes. Like, these. The indiscriminate bombing and, like, war crimes against my country. Like, yeah, I'm not physically there, but like, that pressure, like, my. I can feel it. Like, it. It. It's been really difficult to sleep the last couple nights. Like, I'm racing in my head and I can't really. I'm saying I can't talk much about it as I do this right now, but it's like. It's just like I remember being in my apartment and, like, listening to the news and, like, the American angle of the war is like, well, how is this going to affect gas prices domestically? I'm like, what? We did, hundreds of people apart. Imagine we're just doing this recording and the apartment building just blows the fuck up. And so you're just like, but is gas going to hit $4 a gallon, man? I don't know. It's like, what is wrong with. Mm, fuck the flag. Like, for real. Like, I don't like the things that we were sold on. Again, great marketing. America has incredible marketing, but it's all bullshit. And, like, Trump has ripped apart the Declaration of Independence at its seams, fractured it to a point of, like, you can't recognize it. So it's like, we aren't. Or the Constitution, I should say. It's like, what are we bound to, if not ourselves and our loved ones? And I'm a firm believer in community, and I love building and fostering real relationships with other people, ethnicities, cultures, etc. Because I feel like that's extremely important. But that doesn't seem to be the way in which foundationally our country is moving towards. So, like, I mean, right before we started recording, I was like, I'm open to moving to Paris or somewhere. I just don't feel like I belong here. And then, like, I'm just ranting now, but, like, I. My favorite writers in college were, like, James Baldwin in particular, and a lot of these guys were expats. And I always was, like, what made them all move? And at the time, when I was younger, college, even high school, like, well, they were all gay black men in America. And that must have fucking sucked to be a highly educated man who's gay and can't live freely in this country. So why not go to Paris? But then you read the works that. That in the racist America at the time, which still is, whatever. And then they go to Paris and you read their works for From Paris, and you're like, oh. James Baldwin famously said is like, moving to Paris gave me the freedom to criticize my home country freely because I could see it. I could zoom out and see what it was because I wasn't in it. And that's when he wrote it's going to bother me. I'm not going to remember. He wrote, like, I mean, a lot of his great works, but one in particular that was, like, about the black experience in America, even though he wasn't living there at the time. And it's like, that's. I just feel like I need to do that and commit to it, to. Not that I'm a fucking famous writer or anything, but, like, I just need to. Just to experience what I can think and what I can create away from here. Because right now I do feel trapped. It's, like, scary to be. Not scary like my life's at risk, but, like, I feel stifled as a. As a creative and just like, as a person, which sucks. Like, I don't want to feel this.
- [28:54]
DSW Advertiser
You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it? Yeah. So do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Thanks.
- [29:15]
Julian
The.
- [29:15]
DSW Advertiser
For shoes that get you the prices that get your budget. That's your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you this way.
- [29:24]
Wendell Cole
I feel. Yeah, it's like a Love hate relationship with America right now because I like hate what's going on. Like with everything that's going on here, but also like this, the love is like I love living in New York. Oh, I love.
- [29:40]
Julian
If New York wasn't here I would, I would have been gone.
- [29:42]
Wendell Cole
Yeah.
- [29:43]
Julian
There's no other city in this country that I would move to.
- [29:46]
Wendell Cole
So it's like a love hate relationship where like I hate, I hate America and like its history and like what's going on currently. But like at the same time like I love being here.
- [29:58]
Julian
Yeah. Yeah. I think we, we have the privilege of living in such close quarters amongst each other where it's, it's. You're forced to have a community and using force may not be the right word because I feel like New York welcomes community just because inherently how everybody lives on top of each other and you're just always outside. Like I love that. I like the discomfort of being around strangers in that close of quarters. I don't need much space to live. Clearly. Like I don't require much. Thank you. Yeah. Pandemic deal which has far ended and I'm paying way above what I can afford, but whatever. But like I love that and I love that about when I went to Paris. Like I love the similarly like it's a walking city. I was just bumping shoulders with strangers out of going to a bar, getting a drink and meeting the bartender and oh, hey, can I bum a cigarette? Here's a conversation that then dovetails into like, you know the history of this building. It's like I need that because that's what's fulfilling to me is to like interact and learn from other people. But then as soon as you were talking about the doom scrolling, as soon as you open up this thing, it's just like the most divisive, like hate fear mongering. It's like why do I, truthfully, why do I need to be on this thing? I think my screen time is ridiculous. It's like seven, eight hours a day. I'm like, why do I do that to myself? It's nothing but pain and misery and shit.
- [31:25]
Wendell Cole
It's funny because when I took a break my, my screen time went from like eight hours to like four hours, which is still, it's still a lot
- [31:34]
Julian
but, but that's great. I would love to do that. I would love to get down to four hours, man. It's ah, yeah. I don't know. I, I've been in such a shit funk like in bed last night. It just, it's like, how much. What is the released until I fall asleep? Like, what, what shitty video of a family losing their home or a girl. I think the last video I saw last night before I went to bed was like a nine year old girl was shot in the head and the parent went and saw the body. And then it's just like, they just like wept in tear. It cried. And then I was like, all right, yeah, that's enough for me. Good night. I'm like, why am I going to bed watching that? Like, it is so unhealthy to, to, to be exposed to that, but also to just like desensitize myself. To be like, this is my lullaby tonight is like a child that just got killed for nothing.
- [32:24]
Wendell Cole
And it's also crazy too, because it was like a meme about this where like you see that and then right after you see like someone in the club, like, yeah, yeah, bottles.
- [32:34]
Julian
Yeah. Literally. Yeah, it's. There's no, like, the algorithm is such a schizo piece of. It's like, yeah, it's like that. Then like, you know, one of those videos of like a puppy being rescued in the woods and I'm like, I love that though. That's cute. So, yeah, like, and I don't know, like, to your point earlier of like going through a hardship creates better art. I was doing well and things were going seemingly fine for a while and I just wasn't writing as much because I just didn't feel like I was busy. Life was going on and then as soon as like, things kind of went crashing, especially when I was away in Europe, I was like, my journal became like my space and I really just leaned heavy into writing again, which I've been doing a lot more reading and I'm trying to go, I call it going analog. I'm reading a lot and I'm writing a lot and I'm. I mean, I'm working on staying off this thing, but like, yeah, I don't know. Like I, I just don't know. And not knowing to me is okay. Like, I don't need an answer. I feel like I've lived in a life of volatility and just, you know, things happen, money comes, money goes, security comes, security goes, health insurance comes and goes. Like, I just don't need like that level of security and stability. But now it's pushing up on like, what am I continuing this for? And like, everything about every money that every cent that I make here goes towards something that I'm vehemently against. And it's like I don't want to my success the more I succeed. Not that like, you know, I'm. Every 20 billion I make goes towards like obviously it's like pennies compared to the money that it takes to keep an operation like this afloat. But it's like whatever I make and the more that I make, the more it contributes to this fuck shit. It's really, it's. It's like it's double edged sword. It's like, what the fuck am I supposed to do?
- [34:36]
Wendell Cole
Yeah. You know, I think J. Cole has a line like song like years ago, I don't remember which song it was, but he was saying, I think it was J. Cole, but he was saying
- [34:47]
Julian
like he want to full closer.
- [34:49]
Wendell Cole
Huh? No, not that one. But he, he has a song where he talks about like. Being able to like, damn, what was it? It was like being able to decide where his money goes. Like when he pays taxes.
- [35:09]
Julian
Yeah.
- [35:09]
Wendell Cole
I don't remember what song it was, but I thought that was pretty interesting. Like I feel like we should be allowed to like decide like where our money goes.
- [35:17]
Julian
Yeah.
- [35:18]
Wendell Cole
And what we're supporting.
- [35:19]
Julian
If I could pump all my tax money back into New York City 100, I would love to do that. I would love to do. And I think like a lot of these programs, everybody was like, mom, Donnie's, socialism, all that bullshit. Like there's a lot of things that benefit New Yorkers that I don't need to benefit from. But I think there's a lot of people that need those things. Like the free buses and these like the free. The hopes of a free grocery store. It's like, yeah, there's a fuck ton of people that need that stuff. Like why not it to them, I don't need to reap the benefits of every single thing that benefits. When we say benefits New Yorkers, it doesn't necessarily encompass all New Yorkers. It usually should affect the ones that really need that. So why not give it to them?
- [35:58]
Wendell Cole
And it's funny because I feel like the ones that are complaining about like the free bus or whatever are the ones that don't take buses or don't have to take the bus.
- [36:05]
Julian
Exactly. You never been on a bus? I took a bus for the first time like two weeks ago in like four years. And I was like, that was nice. But like, yeah, that's not for me.
- [36:14]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, like, but there's a lot of
- [36:16]
Julian
people that need that.
- [36:17]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, I hate taking the bus, but yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of people that need to take the Bus. So I was like, why doesn't. Why does it matter?
- [36:24]
Julian
I don't. And then the whole like, the whole angle of like the millionaires are going to move out, all the millionaires are going to move out, that they haven't gone fucking anywhere.
- [36:31]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, they've been saying that.
- [36:32]
Julian
They've been decades saying that it's the same still here. Millionaires have like quadrupled since like, I think it was like over a 10 year span. Like there is an absurd amount of millionaires in New York and they're not going anywhere, which is a good thing. Don't go. Like, you know, truthfully don't really give a fuck if you stay or go, but it's like calling your bluff. None of you guys are leaving.
- [36:55]
Wendell Cole
No.
- [36:55]
Julian
In fact, you're just doubling down and buying more property here.
- [36:58]
Wendell Cole
Yeah. Bullshit. I want to ask, when did you start going to therapy?
- [37:05]
Julian
Shit.
- [37:06]
Wendell Cole
Sorry to go back.
- [37:07]
Julian
No, it's fine. Honestly, like after the. So after the podcast break and all that stuff and then I. I got like a good remote job in February. So my out. My working hours were in la, but I had, you know, time to do modeling here and like build like a life of sky. Yeah, yeah, Build like a little schedule here. So I really lean more into like instead of just like stewing in my own mind and trauma dumping on my mom. I have a friend that had an incredible therapist and he put me in contact with him. We had a phone call, went really well, and then I started to go see him in person.
- [37:52]
Wendell Cole
Yeah.
- [37:53]
Julian
And it's just helped a lot. I mean, he's great. I was never weary of therapy. It was just like the process of finding a good person because I tried before when I lived in Chicago and it was terrible. Like, I was just like, loser ass dude who was like trying to relate with me and he was like, I love Jay Z. And I was like, shut the fuck up. Like, I don't come here to bond over music with you. Like, fucking help me. And then so I meet this guy and he's. He's just been. He's been awesome. I haven't seen him in a bit. But yeah, like, it just helped. It just really helped put things into perspective and just like ground some of my. Or not even grab, like define. We have like weird definitions for some of this shit that I like think about often. Like, one of them in particular is we labeled it called being known as that guy. I have this. I live my life looking through like how other people perceive me, which is not good. So it's like. It's so exhausting, but it's like, I never want to be seen as that guy. Meaning, like, the annoying person or, like, the abrasive person or the person that stands out in a room that, like, makes other people feel uncomfortable or, like, because I. Because it started with, like, I know what I look like. And, like, if you're a group of, you know, three white women walking down the street and you see me coming, I'm like, I know what they think that I am.
- [39:18]
Wendell Cole
Yeah.
- [39:19]
Julian
Which is like. Yeah, you're just like. But, like, I'm not. I could not be less of a threat. So I try to go. Like, I can't get out of my mind for, like, how other people see me in spaces, and it's exhausting.
- [39:33]
Wendell Cole
That's exactly how I feel.
- [39:34]
Julian
Yeah.
- [39:34]
Wendell Cole
Especially, like, three white women coming down the street and, like, I have my hands in my pocket.
- [39:39]
Julian
Yeah, exactly.
- [39:40]
Wendell Cole
I feel like I have to take. I have to take them out. Or if I have a hood on, I have to. It's weird. I don't know what. Yeah.
- [39:46]
Julian
Yeah. Like, there's moments where, again, like, a single girl walking down the street, I'm pacing behind her. I generally walk fast, so I, like. I catch up to people a lot. And I'm. If it's at night even it's New York, there's other people around. Like, I'm aware that, like, if I've been following somebody for a block or two, going out, like, a third block, especially a single girl, I'm like, damn, she must be terrified right now. Which could not be the case at all. She may not even know that I'm behind her, but I will, like, cross the street or, like, just stop or, like, fake a fake call or, like, just do something to, like, lower the threat level. Even though, like, I'm not. I'm a. I'm a. Like, I'm not do. I'm not there to do anything. It's just. I'm just there to go home. Or, you know, it's just. It makes. It's just exhausting. And there's no cure. There's no. You know, there's no. Like, a pill. But. Yeah, the. The. But that. A lot of that comes from, like, how America has worn down the reputation of people that look like us. And it's, like, affected how I look at myself, which is never in an uplifting way. It's in a negative way, which sucks.
- [40:59]
Wendell Cole
I feel that exact same way. Especially, like, those instances you name. And then, like, also, just, like, going into, like, a clothing store. Just like any kind of store, I feel sometimes like I have to buy something so they don't think. Like, especially at Blick, when I go to Blick to buy art supplies.
- [41:16]
Julian
Yeah.
- [41:16]
Wendell Cole
I'm always being followed. Oh, yeah, Always. I remember one time I had to call out the security guard because I walked into the store. Someone was like, oh, hey. As soon as I walked in, like, hey, do you need help with something? I was like, no, I'm fine. I know where to go. I walk into the aisle, same associate comes up to me again and asks me if I need help. Like, no, I got this. Then I see the security guard walking back and forth, like, looking at me. And then I had to tell the associate, like, hey, stop following me around the store. Like, I come here all the time. I'm just buying something and I'm leaving. That's it. I should have just put whatever I had, like, back in the Whatever in the aisle. But, like, I don't know. I felt forced to. Like, I have to buy this. Not approved in them. That wasn't stealing.
- [42:02]
Julian
Isn't that up? Yeah, like, that's it. Like, that I don't go to. There's a Whole Foods over here that I don't go to anymore because they always used to follow me. I was like this. Like, I don't. What is that? Like, so that. And then there's also, like, yeah, like, a lot of friends that. Just a lot of, like, white friends. I just don't have to think this way. So, like, we'll be out and be like, oh, I gotta go to the bathroom. Like, oh, we'll just, like, pop into, like, the store, whatever, this bar. And like, op. I'm like, I can't do that. They're like, why not? I'm like, I just can't, like, go into a place and just, like, use something there and then just walk out. They're like, why? What are you talking about? Like, you just don't. It's just different. Or like, a couple summers ago, my friend rented a home in the Hamptons. Is my first time out there. I went. It was for his birthday. And I, you know, he had a space for me, so I went as me. And, like, you know, five, six white guys are all pretty well off. And we're at the beach, and we were short a towel or two. I didn't have one because I was, like, running to the. Grabbing drinks, whatever. So I was late to grab a towel. And they were like, bro, just go grab. From the stack over there? And I was like, no. And they're like, why not? I'm like, who's. Whose towels are like, is it like. Is it the beach club? Like, we're not with the club. They're like, dude, you're overthinking the fuck. I was like. I was like, I'll tell you what I'm not. I just said straight up. I was like, I'll tell you what I'm not doing is coming to this beach in the Hamptons and taking something that does not belong to me. And they were like, all right, man. Damn. So they went and got it. And I was like, you guys don't understand, like, how different this is for me. Like, I'm the. I will be perceived as the outsider, the guest. Like, the. Who the is this guy? The last thing I'm gonna go do is grab something that I didn't come here with from my apartment in the city. It's. Yeah. Just like. Even though it's some, like, harmless and like, something so frivolous is, like, that. They're just. It's just. You don't have to think like that. And that gets exhausting. And it's, like, insurmountable. Going out to dinner and just the people looking at you, who's splitting the check, and the server just gives you this look, like, are you going to pay? Or, like, what's the tip? The black guy is going to leave. It's like, man, get the fuck off my dick. Like, all that. Yeah.
- [44:04]
Wendell Cole
Now I feel like I'm like, have to tip to.
- [44:07]
Julian
Yes.
- [44:07]
Wendell Cole
I feel like I'm like, yes.
- [44:11]
Julian
It's weird how, like, there's an over correction where it's like, we actually end up doing more than what's expected, because what's expected isn't good enough. We have to approve that. Not only are we a good one, but, like, we contribute more than most, which is so, like. It's sad. But, yeah, you know, America, freedom.
- [44:35]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, that's a good time. I should bring that up. I just started going to therapy last month, so that's a good topic for me to bring up.
- [44:43]
Julian
Dude, please run with it. I feel like it's something that is often even in black and brown communities. Like, it's. I think it's something that universally shared but never spoken about. It's just assumed reality. It's just like. It's like that's the constant. And you're like, okay, well, how do I fit? Because it can swing the other way. People are like, oh, you think I'm this guy, well, fuck it, I'm gonna steal the paint now. Like I'm gonna be rebellious because fuck you. Which also there's a case to be made. I don't fault people for like, for that feel that way. Like I'm not like I'm better than them because I go the other way. It's like, no, like if you push me to a certain point, fuck you, I'm going to take this shit or like I'm going to act out or lash out. But I feel like we either we, those, those micro moments happen and we react but we never talk about what that experience is during them. And like what leads you to go one way versus the other. Like how those small things just add up over time. You know, it's like if one guy blows up all of a sudden, you know, like on some, on a clerk or a store working like, well, what led that? Like some. This isn't a one off thing. This is something that's been happening since this kid was 14. Travel walking around the city alone, you know, now he's 28 and this is like years of compounded like, you know, trauma and just like being piled on top of him where it's like sorry lady at Target. But like this is what's happening right now.
- [46:08]
Wendell Cole
So.
- [46:09]
Julian
Yeah, but I don't know, man. Anyway, every time I see your art, I always, it just was talking to my therapist and having those moments. It always takes me back to like those conversations with him and also just like with my dad, you know, because just like my dad graduated high school in the 60s. It's like he lived a lot of this, a lot of this shit. And yeah, my dad often like, you know, just leaned in like the success of his success in sports to like break through certain like communities and gain respect from people. But that was never, it was never communicated. It's like, you know, he jumped far, so he's good. It's like what? That's not how, that's not how that should work. He dunks a lot. He's a good one. What the is that all about?
- [47:02]
Wendell Cole
He played basketball.
- [47:03]
Julian
Basketball and track. That was a freak athlete. But like I could see it's weird like because you know, my dad lives upstate where I grew up and there's all these, his peers and even elder people that are like, look at him like a legend and speak so highly of him. But it's like always through the lens of like his athletic ability. Like my dad is like a really kind, great guy, which I hear stories about too, but it's like, you're. I. It's. And I also know people that didn't really know him, but just, like, were, like, a fan of his ability athletically. It's like, I don't like some of the words they use when they talk about. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like little Jerry Jones is sure. Look at the head on this one. It's like, oh, man, it's my dad, man. Like, get the out of here. So, yeah, it's. It's. It's tough, but what are you gonna do? I don't know, man. So what's. What's the plan with the. When do you. How much time you got before you finish the last piece in the series, you think?
- [48:00]
Wendell Cole
I think hopefully end of next week. Hopefully end of next week I'll have it completed and I'll post it on Instagram also. Yeah, like, going back to Instagram also, too. Sometimes that makes me feel bad about myself too. Like, if I post work or, like, if I lose a follower, then I'll get in my head, be like, oh, maybe this work wasn't as good as I thought. Like, that's why they unfollowed. It's all these different things that play. Like, if it doesn't get enough likes, I kind of, like, hid the, like, count on my Instagram.
- [48:38]
Julian
I got something like that.
- [48:39]
Wendell Cole
Yeah. So I don't like or like it, like, hides all the light counts. I don't see light counts, but back in the day, like, when I used to have the light counts on, like, that would stress me out.
- [48:51]
Julian
Yeah.
- [48:51]
Wendell Cole
Because I would, like, base how good a painting or collage was, like, based off how, like, how many likes it got.
- [48:57]
Julian
Yeah.
- [48:57]
Wendell Cole
Or how many comments or whatever, which
- [48:59]
Julian
is, like, purely at the mercy of the algorithm for however long it decides to push that piece. Yeah. There's even extending beyond that. Like, with the current situation in Lebanon, I. I feel compelled to share something or some, you know, news or statistics about what's going on. And you can see, you know, followers go down or, like, the view suppression. Like, okay, you know, like 2,000 views on a story. And then I post about Lebanon, it's like 300. I'm like, oh, interesting. So then you're. You're. You're not incentivized to share that content because you know what it'll do for your pay, which is so fucked up. It's like, well, just because I'm sharing or, you know, pushing this type of content with, like, this specific message, and it's not like, no, like, f. Fill in the blank. You can assume it's like, just very like, Kanye. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, you know, I know people that swing that way, like, in terms of like, on the extreme end of being very, like, brash and bulk, which, you know, respective too. But it's like I keep it very. Try to keep it very even keel. And just like, I post, like, this beautiful, artistic. Some, like, videographer took some, like, stunning shots of, like, the beach, but then in the back you're seeing, like, bombs billowing and like, it just like the reality of what's going on. And it's like, it's an artistic lens of war. And it's just like the. Is how much of what I care about will I share if I know it, It'll inherently hurt the goal of, like, what a growing the fox. It's like it's so fucked that, like, that you have to play. You have to jockey your beliefs, which is counter to what will help you actually grow your page.
- [50:53]
Wendell Cole
Even with artists too. Yeah, because a lot of art world as. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, can't really say much about what's going on in Palestine. And, like. Yeah, because I remember I was posting a lot of, like last year, I was posting a lot about Palestine. And yeah, to my stories, I had like, a painting that I did or, like, a collage that I did about Palestine. And then, like, noticed, like, all these, like, art people just, like, stopped with me.
- [51:28]
Julian
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [51:29]
Wendell Cole
I won't name names, but, like, these. Yeah, they stopped with me. I could, like, tell.
- [51:33]
Julian
Yeah. Good luck getting into all these galleries. Yeah.
- [51:38]
Wendell Cole
Yeah. So it's. It's. It's tough, man. Instagram, like. And like, I don't know.
- [51:44]
Julian
It's tough, but it's. Does that I get, like, as an artist, does that stifle the kind of work that you'll create? Does that affect your creative process at all or how you approach. Maybe online, but I think more importantly, what you actually execute. Brush to canvas.
- [52:09]
Wendell Cole
I don't think so. I feel like I have definitely stepped back from posting, like, yeah. Stuff to my stories in general, but I don't think. I don't think it'll affect the work that I make.
- [52:22]
Julian
Good. That's always the biggest. There's a lot of clips of. I always feel like comedy is always my anchor for a lot of these comparisons. But Louis CK Was talking about how comedians. He hates Instagram. He's vehemently against the idea of comedians using Instagram, but he was saying, like, it has changed. The art form itself, where comedians are now writing for clips or writing for, like, the medium is becoming the thing that they're creating for rather than the art itself. And it, like, pisses them off. He has, like, this great interview. He's talked about it quite a bit. But I. I'd imagine that there is some of that as well in the art world where you're like, this is. This is hot right now, or this style's hot right now. And I have the technical skills to do this, and I know you know how to push this. And it's more about pushing it online than it is about the art itself. Do you know anybody? I mean, you know the name shit. But, like, is that something that you see
- [53:22]
Wendell Cole
from understanding correctly? Yeah, there's this painting that I did. This is, like, me pretty much because I swore that I wasn't going to do this style of, like, painting, whereas, like, doing, like, black figures. Because, like, a lot of people, like, paint black people and portraits of black people and black and brown people. I swear I wasn't gonna do it up until I started working on this series. And then this is me kind of calling myself out about it, like, being a sellout to, like, make it in America, pretty much.
- [53:59]
Julian
So then what led you? What was the reason that you started? Including?
- [54:03]
Wendell Cole
Because that's what's selling, really.
- [54:06]
Julian
Okay, so you're literally selling.
- [54:09]
Wendell Cole
So I'm calling myself out as a sellout because I saw I wasn't gonna do this, but this is what I always wanted to make it, but I just couldn't do it.
- [54:20]
Julian
Yeah.
- [54:20]
Wendell Cole
I felt like. And everyone is doing it, so I just felt like it was whatever, but I'm putting my own spin on it at the end of the day. But I am calling myself out for being a sellout because I'm doing this because I know.
- [54:33]
Julian
Yeah.
- [54:33]
Wendell Cole
So. And most of the time, these works that I've been working on end up in, like, white homes. Just funny enough.
- [54:40]
Julian
Yeah. Yeah. How much do you know or get, like, info about the people that are buying pieces from you or.
- [54:47]
Wendell Cole
A lot of. A lot of white people do, you
- [54:50]
Julian
know, like, did you ever do. I don't know how it works. Like, did they go right to you? Yeah.
- [54:55]
Wendell Cole
There's content.
- [54:56]
Julian
So then, like, what is the conversation like outside them loving the piece, obviously, which is, like, great. Awesome that they love your art, but it's like, what do they ever say? Like, this reminds me of. Or, like, I want this because. Or, like, do they ever give you an explanation?
- [55:10]
Wendell Cole
No, they're Just like, yo, I just want this. I just want this one.
- [55:13]
Julian
This in the Hamptons. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:17]
Wendell Cole
Because I remember. I remember out in la, I was at this. This gallerist's house.
- [55:22]
Julian
Yeah.
- [55:23]
Wendell Cole
For, like, a party. And I remember, like, being in his house, and he had all these, like, paintings of, like, black people. And, like, he's like figures of, like. Yeah. Just all this black art. And I was like, this is, like, weird. Yeah.
- [55:37]
Julian
I would just ask, like, hey, why are you into that? I would not. Like, man, there's some weirdo going on. But I would be generally curious, like, hey, what about this style? Like, why this?
- [55:47]
Wendell Cole
Me and my friend were laughing because while we were, like, questioning, like, about the black art, they started cutting. They started cutting watermelon.
- [55:57]
Julian
I didn't want to say it.
- [55:59]
Wendell Cole
They came to us and offered us watermelon.
- [56:01]
Julian
You get first dibs.
- [56:03]
Wendell Cole
It was, like, funny. It was like we were, like, dying, like, crying, laughing. We took videos of her cutting, like, watermelon in the kitchen.
- [56:12]
Julian
Oh, man. It's such a. It's such a weird. I wonder how much of that is, like, a white guilt thing versus, like, it's like the scene I recently, like, a month or so ago, you know, when a movie had so much adoration when it came out, and then, like, the dust settles and, like, years go by and you're like, I'll revisit it. I rewatched get out for the first time since it came out. And it's just. This reminds me of that, like, whole opening third of the film where he's just like, every black person. Something's off here. And it's like, why is everybody that's helping you out black? Or why are they all, like, black but not really black in the sense of, like, culturally? And it's just like, that. You, like, walk into this white dude's gallery home. You're like, why is every thing here?
- [56:52]
Wendell Cole
That's exactly.
- [56:53]
Julian
Why are they cutting up watermelon?
- [56:54]
Wendell Cole
Right?
- [56:55]
Julian
What the is going on right now?
- [56:56]
Wendell Cole
That's what. We're dying laughing because we felt like this was like a scene of get out.
- [57:00]
Julian
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. It is so weird. But you can't, like, communicate. Good thing you had a homie there.
- [57:06]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:07]
Julian
But there's so many times where Ms. Space is like, that. I'm just like, yeah, what the is what's going on? What is this? This isn't normal. And it feels performative and weird. But, yeah, it was.
- [57:17]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, we're the only two. And it was also Like. Like, I think Prince was playing or like, some sort of hip hop was playing, too.
- [57:24]
Julian
It's like, yeah, they're all sipping cognac. You're like, what is. What the. Yeah, they're doing Cat Williams references. You're like, yo, what is going.
- [57:32]
Wendell Cole
It's like a table full of white people outside, and it's just me and him inside, like, looking at the art and then being offered watermelon. It's like. It's, like, a lot going on that night. But, yeah, a lot of white people, like, love black. Like, black figurative art.
- [57:50]
Julian
Yeah. I think.
- [57:51]
Wendell Cole
I mean, like, should ask them, though. Like, what.
- [57:56]
Julian
I don't. I want you to hurt your sales. Put a grill in them. But, like, I was thinking about that because, like, I. I mean, a lot of, like, cubism is just a derivative of, like, African art, which, you know, obviously, like, Picasso probably was, like, the biggest arbiter of, like, taking that to, like, a popular European white audience. It's like, maybe it's. I don't know. Like, I would like to attribute it to that, but who the. Who the hell knows, man? I don't know. It's a. There's always something that's not being said. That is the thing that always, like, raises your eyebrows. You're like, man, this. It's a feeling. And if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't right. You know, it's like, oh, this piece reminded me of, like, my great grandfather's best friend, like, Gumbo Jim. And it's like, Gumbo Jim, like, what, did he work for your dad? Or what was the relationship here exactly? Oh, he was allowed in the house. Okay, got it. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. Like, I don't know. It's such a fuck.
- [59:03]
Wendell Cole
It's fucked. But, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's a weird, weird position to be in.
- [59:10]
Julian
Yeah. How do you juggle that? Like, the dichotomy of, like, you have to kind of placate towards a demo that. Because more often than not, the buyers, the purchasers of great art are, you know,
- [59:27]
Wendell Cole
even with the sellout one, like, I had, like, a lot of, like, white people, like, of course love it.
- [59:32]
Julian
Yeah.
- [59:32]
Wendell Cole
And, like, hit me up not asking to buy it, but just, like, hitting me up, saying, this is, like, amazing. Like, blah, blah, blah. But also, I feel like a lot of the time I'm not, like, explaining what the art is about. So
- [59:50]
Julian
that's how I would just be. Like, why? Like, I would just generally ask. Like, I'm. As the artist, I'm curious, like, what is it about this particular piece that you, like, speaks to you? Yeah.
- [60:00]
Wendell Cole
Yeah, I should start doing that.
- [60:02]
Julian
I. I mean, yeah, I. It's like, just getting. Yeah. Like, crowd feedback. You're just like, you know, you could do an anonymous thing, but I would. I would. Yeah. I was like, why? Why this one? Just, you know.
- [60:13]
Wendell Cole
Yeah. There's nothing wrong with them or there's nothing wrong with them buying it. I just, like. Just. Yeah. Just like, why?
- [60:18]
Julian
Yeah. Anyway, dude, this was great, man. I'm so glad we finally made this. Made this happen. I don't want to eat up your whole afternoon. It's beautiful outside, but. But, yeah, dude, tomorrow, come to the. The gallery.
- [60:33]
Wendell Cole
Second therapy session of the week.
- [60:34]
Julian
Yeah, man. Good for you. I'm going, man. That was. That was great. I had no idea where this would go, and that was. I needed that shit. I feel like I've been holding a lot of this stuff in, and, yeah, it's. It's been wacky, especially with. I don't know what it is about Coachella, but it's just kind of. It's pissing me off this time around. I'm just like, man, get this. The. Stop it. Now's not the time to have a Coachella look at the world right now. But, dude, I appreciate it, man. Thank you. Thank you, buddy. And excited to see all your finished pieces together soon. And I'll stitching all the stuff available.
- [61:14]
Wendell Cole
Thank you.
- [61:15]
Julian
My Photoshop skills. All right, everybody. This was. What is this? Episode 57, Something Wrong with the Podcast. Thank you all. Have a great week. Peace.
- [62:05]
Podcast Advertiser
We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With Alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today and make the most of your summer with Alltrails.