Soul & Science: Fast Forward Your Marketing Mind

Episode #97 – "Measuring the Unmeasurable" with Meta CMO & VP of Analytics Alex Schultz
Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Jason Harris

Episode Overview

In this episode, Jason Harris sits down with Alex Schultz, Chief Marketing Officer and VP of Analytics at Meta and author of "Click Here: The Art and Science of Digital Marketing and Advertising" (out October 2025). Together, they explore the interplay between data-driven decision making and creative intuition in building iconic brands, dissect how to balance the "soul and science" of marketing, and discuss the challenges of measuring brand love, cultural relevance, and the unmeasurable impacts in marketing.

Key themes include Schultz's unconventional path to digital marketing, the logic of iconic rebrands (including Facebook's transformation to Meta), the imperative of a North Star in decision making, how to know when to give up on a product, and the future of AI in marketing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Alex Schultz’s Origin Story and Early Marketing Lessons

• Academic Roots: Started in experimental and theoretical physics at Cambridge, with a Master’s thesis in terahertz imaging.
  • "I wanted to be an archeologist, then I wanted to be a physicist. So it was a long and windy road for sure." (02:37)
• Internet Experimentation: Built a top-ranking paper airplane website as a teen, then moved on to a cocktail website, both paid for via ads.
  • "The passion was paper airplanes. And then over time, the passion became learning how to do SEO and online marketing." (04:37)
• Self-Taught Marketer: Early fascination with SEO, site ranking, and the global nature of web traffic.

Translating Complex Data Simply

• Schultz’s standout skill is in "explaining complex things simply" (05:57), and identifying the “one clear insight among all the information.”
• COVID Preparedness Example: Brought critical Lombardy usage data to Meta’s leadership before COVID lockdowns—showcasing the value of actionable insight.
  • "Usage is going to go up a lot. Look at Lombardy." (07:33)

Why Facebook Became the Place to Build His Career

• Data-Driven Decision: Saw Facebook’s growth metrics and the opportunity to revolutionize marketing measurement (incrementality and lift studies), which search and affiliates couldn’t provide at the time.
• Incrementality Obsession: "So much marketing...no incrementality measurement." (09:30)
• Every major move — including joining Meta — was inspired by access to cutting-edge data and the potential to change how marketing is measured.

The Power of a North Star

• Internal Alignment: Credits Mark Zuckerberg for setting a clear, simply-phrased mission, making internal prioritization and decision-making easier and faster.
• Evolving North Star:
  • Then: "Connect the world online through Facebook"
  • Now: "Build the future of human connection and the technology that enables it." (13:01, 29:57)
• Impact on Marketing: North Star guides both internal choices and external messaging.
• A North Star enables delegate decisions (e.g., not using homepage takeovers like Myspace did):
  • "It gave us a priority order." (10:51)

When to Double Down or Walk Away from Products

• Science: Focus on retention as the main metric for product-market fit.
  • "For a consumer product, retention is the one metric you need to look at as to whether this thing has product market fit." (14:19)
• Soul: Sometimes conviction trumps numbers (e.g., continuing glasses development despite poor numbers, which paid off later):
  • "We kept trying...there was another try in there," even when data said otherwise. (15:35)

Measuring the Unmeasurable: Art vs. Science

• Balance: The science is knowing what you can measure, and doing it well; the art is having conviction and logic for unmeasurable, culture-driven leaps.
• Marketing Example:
  • Science: "Direct response marketing via social media...you should A/B test that." (17:11)
  • Art: "Closing Fifth Avenue and having Lewis Hamilton do donuts to make people in the US think about WhatsApp—you’re not going to be able to measure that." (17:11)
• Permission to Play: "Use what you can measure well to get permission to do the things that require intuitive, culture-driven thinking." (18:27)

Measuring Cultural Relevance and Brand Love

• It’s possible to measure aspects of cultural relevance via surveys, but impact of one-off stunts is impossible to attribute cleanly.
• Netflix Narcos Billboard Case Study: "They broke through into culture and you can measure that that billboard worked...it's the unusual stunt where you can measure it." (20:03)

The Threads Launch: An Example of Art & Science

• Combined a "golden ticket" invite, culturally relevant creators, and paid marketing for Threads’ launch. The interplay was essential.
  • "I cannot tell you how valuable each of the individual pillars was because I don't think...the direct response marketing would have had anywhere near the effect." (21:39)
• Timing, culture, and leadership-driven calls were decisive: "That was not my judgment call...that was the product leadership." (22:06)

Goals vs. Metrics: Why the Difference Matters

• Distinction:
  • "A goal is the thing you want to achieve." (24:16)
  • "A metric is how you judge whether you achieved the goal."
• Common Pitfalls:
  • Conflating metrics and goals leads to chasing the wrong things.
  • "You forget about your goal and you just optimize for the metric." (25:55)
• Metrics Overwhelm: Cautions against drowning in too many metrics—use the ship’s captain analogy: lots of instrumentation, but one mission. (27:17)

The Meta Rebrand: Measuring and Managing Change

• Decision: The "decision to change the brand was science. Everything else was art." (29:05)
• Maintaining Secrecy: No testing was done in advance; the change was driven by internal conviction and strategic need, not traditional marketing metrics. (29:20)
• Aftermath: "It's always hated at first, then it just becomes what it is—if you get it right." (29:49)
• Why It Worked: The rebrand was a forward-looking move, in sync with company mission and leadership’s vision. (31:36)

Mastering the Creative Brief

• Learning Curve: Schultz did not initially appreciate the importance of the creative brief, but now calls it "the core of every campaign." (32:09)
• Super Bowl Commercial Example: A simple, focused brief led to a “Hey Meta” call-to-action ad, which increased sales by 50%. (34:43)
• Creative’s Power: Briefs help frame the creative process so teams can "find creative ways to push the edge." (33:01)

The Future of AI in Marketing

• Three Waves:
  1. Make existing things more efficient (e.g., content moderation).
  2. Enable new things that were too expensive before (e.g., AI chatbots).
  3. Create totally new categories (e.g., TikTok-style recommendations using semantic AI). (36:10)
• Speed of Change: Progress often seems slow until a threshold is crossed, "then suddenly you feel a massive change." (40:23)

Schultz’s Agency Philosophy

• Meta heavily relies on agencies for best practices and scale: "I love my agencies." (41:37)
• Agencies are essential for cross-platform expertise and fresh perspectives.

Schultz’s Takeaways and Advice for Marketers

• Who the Book Is For: Both marketers and non-marketers (e.g., finance and business partners), written and tested with a broad audience in mind. (42:55)
• Main Hope: That the book bridges understanding between marketing and other business functions: "A really good way to show to your colleagues what we do." (42:23)
• Business Challenge: Right now, matching supply and demand for Meta's AI Glasses is his top focus (44:32).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Data and Marketing Insight
  "Explaining complex things simply." (05:57, Alex Schultz)
• On New Product Success
  "For a consumer product, retention is the one metric you need to look at as to whether this thing has product market fit." (14:19, Alex Schultz)
• On Art vs. Science
  "Measure what you can and measure it well...then use that to get your permission to go out and do the things that are much more passion based..." (18:27, Alex Schultz)
• On Rebranding to Meta
  "The decision to change the brand was science. Everything else was art." (29:05, Alex Schultz)
• On Leadership's Role in Vision
  "It was genuine to the company mission, genuine to the direction of the CEO. It wasn't running away from anything...it was running towards something." (31:21, Alex Schultz)
• On the Creative Brief
  "Wow, this is the core of every campaign is the creative brief." (32:09, Alex Schultz)
• On AI’s Coming Impact
  "You’re not going to get replaced by AI...but you’re going to be replaced by somebody using AI." (36:29, Alex Schultz)
• On Incrementality
  "Incrementality is everything. Like, it matters that what I did made a difference." (45:32, Alex Schultz)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Alex Schultz’s Early Days & Websites: 02:37 – 05:34
• The Skill of Explaining Data Simply: 05:57 – 07:46
• Why Join Facebook/Meta: 08:11 – 10:15
• North Star Mission and Its Importance: 10:51 – 13:01
• Retention as Key Metric: 14:19 – 15:35
• Art & Science in Product Decisions: 15:35 – 18:27
• Measuring Culture, Brand Love: 19:11 – 20:39
• Art & Science in Brand Launches (Threads): 21:39 – 22:31
• Goals vs. Metrics – Crucial Distinctions: 24:16 – 28:47
• Meta Rebrand – Decision and Secrecy: 29:05 – 31:36
• The Value of Creative Briefs: 32:09 – 34:43
• AI’s Future in Marketing: 36:10 – 40:23
• Working with Agencies: 41:37 – 42:03
• Book’s Audience and Takeaways: 42:23 – 44:09
• Current Business Challenge: 44:32 – 45:03
• Personal Mantras: 45:13 – 46:07

Conclusion

This episode offers a candid, practical, and visionary look into how one of the world’s most data-driven brands blends analytics with instinct and creativity. Schultz’s views provide both a masterclass in marketing measurement and a gentle reminder of the deep value of intuition, experimentation, and cultural attunement. Marketers at all levels will benefit from his wisdom on navigating metrics, crafting clear creative briefs, and maintaining a holistic, “soul and science” approach to making brands matter.