← Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Soul Sessions with Creative Mind with Debra berndt Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado of CreativeMind. Join us each week for an inspiring conversation about personal development based on Jungian philosophy, Eastern spirituality, and social neuroscience. Explore deep topics in a practical way.
- [00:22]
B
Let's begin.
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C
Foreign.
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B
Hello. Welcome to another episode of Soul Sessions. I'm Debra Maldonado.
- [00:35]
C
And I'm Dr. Rob.
- [00:36]
B
And we are here to continue our series on emotions. And today we're talking about anxiety and surprise and the illusion of control. Very excited for today. Before we begin, though, I do want to remind you, if you are listening to us on any of the podcast services, don't forget to subscribe to our channel. Channel. And if you are listening to us on or watching us on YouTube, click the link in the corner and subscribe to our YouTube channel. And, yeah, that helps us a lot, reach more people. So thank you for that.
- [01:10]
C
Appreciate it. Yeah.
- [01:14]
B
I'm a little anxious about this episode, Rob. I hope it turns out okay.
- [01:18]
C
All right, you're talking to the. You're preaching to the choir. I come from a long line of anxious people, but if I can manage it, anyone can. You know that that's really the message. And we're not really talking about anxiety disorders here. We're just talking about natural, common, everyday anxiety tests, interviews, speaking, that kind of world problems. Yeah. The world going down in flames, that stuff. Yeah. So statistically, almost 20% of the population of adults will have experienced some anxiety in a year. Meaning that's. That's a huge number of people. Right. And that's in the U.S. yeah, in the U.S. according to NIH, that's a significant number of people that are experiencing anxiety. Right. So right off the bat, we can say it's part of the human condition to experience anxiety. Right. So you. You might as well get comfortable with it.
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B
And this would be. The research says anxiety disorder. So this isn't like. I would say that the people that experience just anxiety in general, I would think is much higher every year.
- [02:36]
C
Good point. Yes, good point. But people, yeah, they typically don't do research just on mild anxiety because they figure everybody has that. Yeah. So chronic anxiety can impair focus, memory, it can impact memory, decision making, and essential functions for leaders and for everyday living, of course. Meaning there's probably millions of people hiding out in their home, not doing what they're capable of doing because of anxiety. And that, that is the real tragedy, the real human cost of not. Not having the tools to work with our mind, you know, to regulate anxiety, to manage it. To even use it, you know, in a. In a creative way, which we'll talk about as we go along.
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B
And some people suppress it, so they're not even aware. They're anxious and they kind of stuff it. And they're maybe acting in a hurried way to like. It's almost like they're running away from their own anxiety. So they get into overworking, burning out, overwhelm at work or in. If they're a business owner getting, you know, stressed about their business and getting busy, busy, busy. So it almost like burns off the anxiety. They think it's burning off the anxiety, but it's actually fueling it. So. And then it. I love the, this what you just said about focus and decision making that is so important for any person in their life to make the right decisions. And if you're being led by the emotion and being led by the fear, you'll end up not making the best decisions for yourself. So let's talk about Rob. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the brain and what's really happening in the brain when we have anxiety.
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C
Yeah. So the, the amygdala, our friend, the amygdala is part of the limbic system, meaning part of the emotional brain. And it's really sensitive to. To reading situations, facial expressions, body language, stuff that you're not even really conscious about and picking up on. If it's this, is. Is this dangerous for me, is this threatening for me somehow, or am I okay? And it picks it up in split seconds and then activates the whole central nervous system to respond appropriately, which is the fight or flight or freeze response. And these things, if you're not aware of them, they can run your life, basically. Because if it's, if it's oversensitive from early childhood experiences or just from your own physiology, then you're in trouble. You're always having this overreaction of anxiety to mild stimuli.
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B
And so what you're saying is that the, this process of anxiety, this is really to serve us for survival purposes. So that's really the root of it. It's like, I'm going. I need to survive. But is we. If the boss gets mad at us, are we going to die? That. That's what happens with the anxiety. It makes things bigger than they are. And I think we need to. I think it's designed that way to keep us on guard and keep us safe. If we didn't have any anxiety at all, we would be getting into lots of trouble.
- [06:01]
C
Well, yeah, evolutionarily, let's say in our evolution, we did go through probably hundreds of thousands of years, or maybe millions, where we were prey to these big cats or crocodiles or something. And so our system developed these defenses and totally appropriate, but now, you know, we sit in traffic and we stew in these, these hormones and stress hormones and neurotransmitters, and that doesn't do us much good.
- [06:35]
B
So I remember you and I were driving back from my mom's and the highway closed down. There was like a big accident in the highway and we're just dead stop for at least an hour. And I was having a little anxiety, like, I want to go, I want to move, I want to get home. Everything was just stopped and there was nowhere to go. And I remember getting my mind thinking, this is temporary. There'll be a time when I'm sitting home comfortably. And I just kept visualizing myself home comfortably. It's going to pass. And it really helped because if you just feed those thoughts and those emotions, you're going to drive yourself nuts. And it's not going to, it won't be. Nothing's going to change. And it's like almost worrying about something or being stressed about something that is going to be over eventually. It's like making everything worse.
- [07:25]
C
Luckily, luckily for us, the, the nervous system operates in that yin yang balance, right? The parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system, they're always kind of trying to balance each other out, but neurologically, the prefrontal cortex is kind of the captain in the chair at the controls. And the, the more you develop this awareness, the more you can start to activate the prefrontal cortex and override the fear response so that you're not panicking at the, you know, idea of getting up to speak in front of your, your colleagues or something like that. You can manage it.
- [08:07]
B
Now, speaking of public speaking, and the next point I want we were going to make about the research is that mild anxiety may actually help us to have it. Like, it's not bad to have a little bit of anxiety. And I remember someone told me once that I was getting, when I first started putting myself out there and I was nervous about speaking. The coach I had at the time was a speaking coach. And she said, you want to be nervous. She said, if you're not, you don't have any nerves. Your, your performance is going to be flat. So you want to channel that energy. So it's okay to have a little bit of that, but you don't want it. Like, I guess it's a point of no Return you don't want to go overboard and to the urgency anxiety where you really can't perform. So you wanted that delicate balance. But also it helps us be prepared for things like if we're like a little bit anticipation about things like maybe market conditions or even raising your kids, like being a little careful and worrying about like how that child's going to be safe in the world or you know, you're not leaving like plugs open and they could stick their finger in. Like those kind of things are good for us to make sure that there's like some level of safety around us. And it helps us think faster too. It says.
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C
Yeah, absolutely. So we need that because it's a motivator. Right. It's like a little bit of pressure. Like, like people say, right. I work better under pressure. There's something about pressure. Right. That brings out the best in you or it can bring out the best in you. It only becomes a problem when it's chronic, when the anxiety is always there to where you get exhausted after a while. Right. You're so worried and rerunning the film in your head over and over that you're. You get exhausted and then you're not able to think creatively.
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B
And our mind is designed to always predict the future so that we don't. So we know what's coming up as a protective mechanism. And that's good to have, it's good to have anticipating what another person is going to say so we could be socially acceptable in the group and all those things. But I think what happens when it gets extreme is this idea of control and that we feel like if I worry, I remember people telling me my clients would say I'm worried about something if I don't worry about it and if I just let it go, something bad, even worse is going to happen.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And so it's this illusion that we have that we can control something that happens, that we're, that we're. We have any power.
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C
Yeah. The old running joke we had in grad school was don't worry, nothing is under control. Yeah. And that, that kind of levels the field. Right. We don't really have control, that much control over our external circumstances. But the brain, because it end, it's always anticipating and trying to predict, predict what's going to happen. It feels like some kind of control that I. If I am predicting right. And I'm thinking about it and I'm going through the worst case scenarios and the best case scenario, then there's some kind of control there, there's some research, for example, that where airline pilots if, if they go through a turbulent storm and they're flying, they're okay. Right, because they're in control. But if they're passengers, their anxiety spikes because they're, they're not in control. Right. They're, they're trusting in somebody else flying the plane. So that sense of control is important to us, but it is illusory.
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B
Well, let me just counter that to. We talk about the mind and consciousness and that your mind creates. You know, of course we're not going to change the planet with just one little mind, but we can change some things in our life by our attitude and where our mind is focused on. So if our mind is focused on the worst case scenario, maybe the thought itself might not have like this energetic power to bring in or attract like a negative thing. But it's more that we have that thought and then everything we do is following that thought. Like our behavior and our emotions or the decisions we may come from the worst case scenario versus someone who's thinking in the best case scenario. They tend to take action and take risks and, and actually see possibilities where a person who's thinking of how can I not like playing to lose versus playing to win? Basically playing not to lose is, is the difference. So what would you say about that? We do have a little bit of control somehow.
- [12:42]
C
Yeah. So this is where we go beyond neurology or neuroscience and we get into the mind. Here's a, let's say an oversimplified definition. We can think of the brain, the neurological brain as the hardware, like a computer has hardware and the mind as the software that is run on that computer. Now obviously we're, we're not machines. We don't know exactly what we are at this point. But, but we're not machines. Right. We have a distinct to human nature. But the mind is completely like, it's a different world when you enter the mind. Now because you're not necessarily talking about physicality now, you're, you're talking about mindset. How do you perceive reality? How do you define reality? What is your worldview and what are the parameters of that worldview that you are imagining in your mind because it is imagined in your mind.
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B
And so you can imagine a person who is more aware that they're not just the body, that they're not this little cork bobbing on the ocean being tossed by the waves of life that were actually the ocean, having that understanding, that philosophical understanding and grounding. You will approach events in life and Circumstances much differently than you would from someone who thinks that they have to control everything and there's danger out there and then they'll tend to be more anxious. So it's not like you have to practice being less anxious, but you have, but the higher knowledge helps you. It's almost like the anxious has nowhere to go. If you understand what you're operating in, does that make sense?
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C
Yeah, because in the mind then we can be observers of our own behavior, of our own reaction, let's say of our own anxious behavior and reaction to, to circumstances at that observation. That witnessing our own mind is very powerful. I mean if you think about what are these monks that sit in meditation for years and years doing? That's what they're doing. They're observing their own mind to gain mastery and to direct it from a higher, let's say a higher plane or a higher state of awareness. That now becomes a very different proposition. You're not simply reacting to the environment, you're observing your mind react to the environment and then interceding and saying I want to, I want to change that. I want to respond in a more creative way.
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B
So would you say that anxiety is the experience of a loss of control?
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C
Yes. From the subjective perspective of the individual.
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B
The perception of the loss of control is why we have anxiety.
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C
Yeah, they have no control.
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B
And that there's something that there, there's something that can harm them in some way. And when we talk about our, you know, view of our own coaching method, we talk about the self from the Eastern perspective, the non dual perspective, which is the soul cannot be harmed, cannot be damaged, cannot be hurt and everything else is a transient experience. And who we really are is indestructible. And it's, it's hard to just get intellectually. It takes practice to, and reading and studying to understand the nature of who we are. And I think if we understand the nature of who we are, we are now able to deal with life circumstances. So someone who is anxious all the time doesn't understand their true nature?
- [16:24]
C
That's right. They're caught up in the immediate neurological response to external circumstances.
- [16:39]
A
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- [17:41]
B
And you say the brain loves prediction. It's a prediction machine. So if you're relying on the brain to do everything, not your higher consciousness, you're kind of just operating on autopilot in a way. Your brain is looking for ways to minimize any surprises. And we're going to get to surprise in a little bit. But we don't like to be surprised. We like predictability.
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C
Yes.
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B
Like, we like having our paycheck every month. I, we, we just did some research and it turns out about only 10% of the population in the US are solopreneurs or entrepreneurs or small business owners or have their own kind of business. 90% of people, working people, work for someone else. And why is that? Why do most of us work for someone else is because we like, we don't like, like that lack some sense of control and predictability.
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C
Yeah, yeah. Ironically, you have less control when you work for somebody else because you're not making the decisions they are and how.
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B
Much you make and what your, what your work day looks like and how much vacation time you can take off. But it's the devil you know versus the devil you don't know. And so many people, it's just like with relationships with people stay in marriages way too long because they think being single is going to be like a downgrade or something terrible is going to happen to them. Moving to a new city, changing careers, there's this, you know, the unknown is so scary. So this prediction machine in the brain is, it freaks out when it doesn't know where's the next step. How do we do this?
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C
Yes.
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B
And if you notice, we did a series on hero's journey a couple about a month or two ago. And it really is true that crossing that threshold into the unknown and the hero has to face all these new dangers or new challenges that they didn't have to face in their home, you know, in their, their safe comfort zone. And, and so if we want to have great, great experiences in life, we have to kind of fall out of love with comfort and predictability and fall in love with anticipation and excitement of surprise.
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C
Yes, the unknown. And yeah, something about anticipation kind of highlights or augments the experience so that if we're anticipating pleasure, for example, the, the anticipation. Right. Like the song says, anticipation.
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B
The ketchup bottle they hated that when.
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C
They did that, he like it makes it more delicious, more yummy, more, you know, interesting. But on the reverse side, when you're anticipating something bad, like going to the dentist and getting your wisdom, getting test results. Yeah. It also heightens that experience so that your mind starts becoming anxious and, you know, going through the worst case scenario kind of thing.
- [20:37]
B
Well, I love this. The Dutch study showed that vacationers were happier before their trip than actually during it, which I find it. It's true. We get excited about planning and going on this trip and then we're on it. And then it's like we're the first day, we have three days left, we gotta go back home. And then we start thinking about returning, anticipating the return versus anticipating, like just enjoying each day. And again, anxiety's always misapplied because we're imaginative beings. We always think of these worst case scenarios that, you know, if I stand up for myself and I tell this person how I feel, that they're going to be yelling at me and screaming and angry and then you have that confrontation and it's not as bad. So things are never as worse as you expect or as great as you expect either.
- [21:26]
C
Yeah. So the anxiety turns out to be the price we pay for this powerful imagination that we have. But you know, we're not going to give up the imagination because it's powerful. Especially once you start to recognize that you're not. You're not just your mind, you're. You're observing your own mind. And that is part of what Jung called individuation, where you start to really call the shots for yourself. Instead of letting the external circumstances dictate to you, you start to really take control and drive the chariot of your mind.
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B
Almost like stepping aside and not letting the machine run everything. And you're basically stepping outside and being outside of that, not getting rid of it, but being able to direct it.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And it takes time. It's not like, oh, let me do a mindfulness and pay attention to the present moment and that's going to do it. That those techniques help. But it's a process of getting.
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C
I know, but most of us have taken, let's say a college course. If we put half the time and effort that we put into a course like that, we, we get a lot of results from it. We. Because you know, the mind is malleable, it's plastic, it's the neuroplasticity, meaning we can shape it, we can reshape it continuously even into old age. So it's a Powerful instrument, but it doesn't come with instructions. So it's like we were all handed these supercomputers, these quantum computers with no instructions. So most of us end up just playing tic tac toe on it or.
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B
You know, some kind of like candy crush or something. I don't even know if they still have that anymore.
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C
Yeah. So, so always keep this in mind. You can, you can retrain your mind, you can redesign it and have it work for you instead of kind of being at its mercy if you have anxiety.
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B
And so anxiety and anticipation and control is all to really counter or avoid surprises. Surprises are fun. Some people love surprise parties. I like getting gifts when a surprise gift, but there's good surprises and then there's bad surprises like, oops, your test results came back, or you know, you got laid off from your job or doing pay pay cuts. That thing you expected to check that you expected to arrive in the mail. We're taking that back. A bill. That's wrong. Right. We, we don't like those surprises. And so, so how do we deal with in a way that is positive and, and then want more surprises in life versus want that predictability?
- [24:09]
C
Yeah. Well, especially as entrepreneurs, we had to learn how to deal with surprises. And one of the best ways to deal with surprise is to always frame it as new possibilities, because that's what it is. You know, why we're, we are the ones that are framing it as a disaster or a problem. We can simply say, oh, it's, it opens up this new set of opportunities that I hadn't even thought about.
- [24:43]
B
So what you're saying is reacting to, when you're reacting to life, to see everything as an opportunity will actually automatically diminish the level of anxiety you have because you're not, you're training yourself not to get depend on the control or that predictability. And you're being open and you have more space to breathe in. And especially as an entrepreneur, I mean, and relationships too, we want that excitement of that first, you know, couple months of dating and what am I going to learn about this person? And all those things. And then we wanted that marriage and that commitment and then everything becomes boring because there are no more surprises. You kind of know everyone. And I think the key to our relationship, we've been together almost 20 years now, is that we surprise each other all the time. We're always like reinventing ourselves and growing ourselves so that everything stays fresh. And that should be in everyone's life. We should always be bringing new things. Try even as simple as just learning a new skill or learning to cook or speaking a new language, or constantly expanding and getting out of that comfort zone and doing something different in your life, taking risks. And you know, I remember when I got laid off from my corporate job. It was a surprise, but I knew I kind of planned like I've been wanting to leave for a while and it was a good surprise. You know, it was still kind of scary. You don't know what to expect. But I knew that deep inside that this is the path I want to be on. So when you have this vision for your life and you know the long goal, the long term purpose of your life, these little things that hiccups in life that show up, they don't seem so dramatic, don't you think?
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C
Absolutely. And again, reframing it as opportunity, as potential, as a creative venture that you're entering instead of, this is a big problem and it's going to ruin me. Or defining it in a very kind of black and white way that it's either good or bad. We leave it open. Everything is neutral. Everything is simply opportunity and complexity expressing itself. And our, our challenge, right, we take it as a challenge is to find the creative response that fits the situation. And we're good at it. Human beings, we're creative by nature. That's, that is our, our unique skill, right? Just like birds fly, human beings are creative. That's our, that's our go to.
- [27:10]
B
I remember when I first started being on my own outside of the corporate world. And I know a lot of our listeners are trying to live their purpose, going to be coaches or trainers or therapists or whatever they're doing to, or living their purpose in some way creative way. I remember I used to say to myself, every day, every day I intend, I set an intention to have a wonderful surprise every day. And I remember telling you one morning, I think we had just met, it was like a month or two, we were dating and I said, I'm expecting an incredible surprise today. You came home and you brought me bouquet of flowers. And you're not like a flower guy all the time. So it was a surprise. And I said, oh, that's so beautiful that you did that. And you said you were expecting a surprise. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I think it's just creating, creating that space for more surprises in your life really help keeps it positive. Little games I had to play to, to be in that uncomfortable place of the unpredictability of my life and everything that changes when you go for your Dreams.
- [28:12]
C
Yeah. And so the bottom line, the, the mind and the brain are malleable. And so it's up to you to take the reins of the mind. Instead of letting the external circumstances mold you and shape you and condition you, you start to make decisions about how you want to experience your life. And it's very doable, again, because we're designed for that. But you have to, you need some instruction. Right. Some practice, some discipline, because the mind responds, but it requires practice. Always practicing. Right.
- [28:47]
B
You know, and also studying higher knowledge.
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C
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We were having this discussion among some of the mentors that work with us. The question was like, what is the common denominator amongst people that take the reins of their mind? It's self inquiry. Because self inquiry is the ability to question your own experience. You're not nullifying it or rejecting it. You're simply asking, what am I experiencing here? Where is this anger? Where is this surprise coming from? Where is this need for control? Where's this anxiety coming from? If you're able to do that, then you can work with your mind. Right. Because you're open to, to questioning instead of just simply buying into it automatic.
- [29:30]
B
Would you say that also having no expectations would be a way to, to tamper anxiety as well?
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C
Yeah, I, I mean, because expectation is.
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B
That kind of anticipation in a way.
- [29:42]
C
Right. That you want a certain outcome. Mindfulness is, is kind of something like that. Right. Or, or openness. It's a personality trait, openness. And it means simply that, that you're open to new experiences. You're not judging them and either accepting them or, or rejecting them. You're open to exploring, well, what's going on here? Well, if, if I do tend to reject this, why am I rejecting this? And then you can, you can start to see deeper layers of your experience.
- [30:17]
B
So not only is the experience that shows up an opportunity, but also the anxiety is an opportunity because it's really showing us how we're so attached to something or where our mind is misperceiving reality.
- [30:31]
C
And it, it can change people's lives. I mean, think of people that don't fly because they, they're too anxious to fly. People that don't take positions where they're required to speak in public when they know it would be a good career move for them. But because of their anxiety, they, they declined those positions on and on. Right. People miss a lot of opportunities in their lives because of minor anxieties that they could easily transform with a little bit of practice.
- [31:01]
B
I've even seen people not want to date because they have the anxiety of getting heartbroken again. So they end up living like. And not everyone needs to be married, but the people that want it, but they feel like anxiety is too much really holds them back. So a great way to work with that is some of these techniques. But one technique isn't going to do it all. Just doing mindfulness isn't going to do it. Just meditating is going to do it. It's sort of a behavior examining your thoughts, the self inquiry, the understanding who you are as a, as a being, spiritual understanding of who you are. So all of that comes into play. But it's. I have my family. There's a lot of anxiety, really harsh anxiety. My father had a lot of anxiety and I feel like I handle it well because of these tools that we teach. Never. No one is a failed cause. Like you can always change.
- [31:53]
C
Absolutely. If I can do it, anybody can.
- [31:56]
B
Yes. All right. Well, now I'm not anxious about the episode anymore. It actually turned out to be surprise in surprise conversations and we anticipate good.
- [32:06]
C
Things coming from it.
- [32:07]
B
Yes. And so our next episode, it will be the last of the series, which is a juicy one. Coming up next week we're going to talk end with peak experiences. So that's going to be amazing. So be sure to tune in next week for the finale of the emotional series. And listen to this. If you have anxiety, listen to this more than once. You're going to get some gems in here to help you really think about it in a different way.
- [32:32]
C
Absolutely. Thank you for joining us. Appreciate it.
- [32:35]
B
Take care and we'll see you next week. Bye.
- [32:39]
A
Thank you for joining us. And don't forget to subscribe to CreativeMinds Soul Sessions and join us next week week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life with creative mind Soul Session. See you next time.