← Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
Hero's Journey and Finding Your Purpose: Interview with Scott Neumeister, PhD.
01:08:23
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Creative Mind Soul Sessions with Deborah Burndt Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of Creative Mind. Explore personal growth with us through Jungian psychology, Eastern spirituality and social neuroscience in a deep but practical way. Let's begin.
- [00:23]
B
Welcome everyone to the program. We have a special guest, Scott Neumeister from the Joseph Campbell foundation, as well as an alumni of the Creative Mind Jungian coaching program. Welcome to the program.
- [00:43]
C
Thank you, Dr. Rob. It's interesting to go from a big fan of the podcast to being a guest on it, so it's a great honor and always a pleasure to talk to you.
- [00:52]
B
Excellent. Good to see you. Now you're in Florida, right?
- [00:57]
C
That's correct. Yeah. Pretty much a lifelong resident here.
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B
Okay. What part of Florida?
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C
Tampa. I'm a little north of Tampa.
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B
Oh, that's right. Beautiful area.
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C
Got my, my PhD is from the, the local state university, which is University of South Florida. So that's, that was my kind of graduate academic institution. So an excellent school right here in Tampa.
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B
Okay, so it's Dr. Neumeister.
- [01:28]
C
Yes, yes.
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B
What's, what's your doctorate in?
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C
English. English. I would say literature. A geek, all from all the way back in, as far as I can remember, but finally turned it into, in an academic pursuit for grad school and a long journey to get that PhD while I was working as a teacher. But after 11 years, I got it and very. And it also helped me, you know, not only dive deep into literature, but then to get involved more deeply with mythology because myth is story as well. So.
- [02:08]
B
Yeah, yeah. So we're always curious here on the show to, to kind of figure out how people end up doing these incredible, remarkable jobs and careers that they do, especially our, some of our students. How did you get to where you're at? How did you find your way? What was that? Those important points in your life that led you to where you are now?
- [02:41]
C
Well, the, I guess the foundational aspect that I kind of alluded to a second ago was my love of literature. And I loved to read. I was, I had incredible English teachers all throughout my elementary and middle school. And part of that curriculum back then was getting introduced in mythology. So in the fifth and sixth grade, I was reading all the kind of the Greek foundational myths, Icarus and of the Minotaur and these other fantastical creatures. And I absolutely was enchanted by that. And then in the seventh grade, we read the Iliad and the Odyssey, so kind of went from the shorter stories to the epics as well as the Epic of Gilgamesh. So really kind of expanding the view from the, you know, through those middle school years of, of story. And again, as much as I love literature, I was even more in love with myth. So that was, those were the foundational kind of the, the, the laying the groundwork for what later became, you know, this, this passion and now my life pivotal point that happened. My, my undergraduate was in economics, so I did not pursue this as, as a, you know, in, in that world. My dad was very kind of a pragmatic person and was, was very much of the mind of, you know, what are you going to do with that? And that's, you know, that's not, that's not hard nosed and pragmatic. So I followed, you know, I followed kind of his path with that. But even, you know, I got into computers and in the moment, there was kind of another pivotal moment within that computer career was I walked into a coworker's office during, during what would have been a lunch period. But most of us ate at our desks because we were very focused on doing the jobs that we had to do. And she was reading the Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. And I had not heard of Campbell, hadn't heard of the book. And I asked the fatal question, what's that, what is that you're reading? And of course, you know, she told me it's about this, this kind of unified story of the hero, you know, throughout culture. And I said to her, may I borrow the book after you're finished with it? And so that really, that was a fateful day, fateful encounter with, with Campbell and those ideas. And so again, these are kind of seeds kind of all being planted along the way.
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B
How old were you at that time?
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C
I was about 24. 24, 25. Right in there.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting the, you know, the strict father, right, who wants us to do something practical. That seems to be an archetype for a lot of us, you know, when, when are you going to get a real career? Right.
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C
Yes. And I did, I was very much, you know, not only was, was the undergraduate institute that I went to, his, the one that he went to, not only was the major that I, I chose, quote, unquote, the one that he chose, but the, but the company and the job that I worked at were also his. So I very much was in the mold of my father for many, many years following some would say in his footsteps, but I, but in some ways following in the pre prescribed path and mold that he had an idea for.
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B
Me and how did that play out, the relationship between you and your father and you pursuing your passion?
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C
Well, you know, I, I worked at that company for 15 years. So for 15 years, about his only kind of push beyond already being in the company and rising in the ranks was for me to be in management because he had been a manager and a director and the vice president and all that kind of upper management versus the purely technical side of things, which I was, which I was doing. And another fateful moment that happened, which was I was a part time, I was coaching, assisting to coach a swim team. I was, I had been a swimmer when I was young and was, and still had a kind of a passion for the sport and helping, you know, helping young swimmers, you know, train in competitive swimming. And the, the head coach that I was, I was under at that, at that swim team, I coached there for a couple years. And he turned to me one day and he said, why aren't you a teacher? He just, he just blank, point blank said, why aren't you? You are really excellent as with, with children and you, and you really have a way about you that, that would work well with kids because he was a teacher as well. And there was another kind of call to adventure, to use a Campbell word of. I had never really kind of considered it as a, as a full time thing at part time. I was doing it kind of in this coaching mode, but I hadn't considered it. And I really, I thought, well, I'll do that when I retire, you know, because again, I didn't want to disappoint the father, you know, the father, at that point, once I'm retired, he'll really have no say because I'll have completed the course as prescribed.
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B
Right.
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C
However, several years later, the opportunity came up at that company, you know, right. At that 15 year point that I was saying to, to leave the company with a, with an amount of money. They had a package, they offered a package for people to leave. And I, I knew that was the moment. I knew that was the, the time to say it's, this is where I, I am going to, to make the switch in my career. And my father was not pleased. He was not pleased at all.
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B
Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. Because you went through the program, I know you did shadow work.
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C
Yes.
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B
How do you see that period from the perspective of the shadow.
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C
Oh, wow. That be very much the understanding of what, you know, that ego function to survive in the tribe and really the, the force and power was really so much in the hands of my father, not that My mother didn't have some, but she. He was really the one kind of directing the show in the family that my ego, you know, it did its job. And at the time, at the time being, it said rather than rebel against it, just go ahead and toe the line and. And be, Be the son that he expects so you can keep the peace. So that, of course, is the prime setup for. For shadow, for pushing. Pushing these things down into the shadow. And so, you know, so. So much of those things that, that were expected and, and, and. And brought into the Persona aspect of being logical, of not being emotional, of being of, well, career, not only career driven, but in that particular career, which highly is like, you know, computer. It is just completely built on this logic and, and rationality and. And planning and all these other kind of.
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B
Very, very left brain.
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C
Yeah, very much. Or in the, you know, the language of. Of the Greek gods. It was very Apollo or Saturn, you know, very structured, very logical, very. Yeah, so that, that those. All those aspects were brought to the front of the Persona and all the aspects of being a feeler and of being, you know, doing things that might not involve logic, that might involve intuition, and these other aspects all very much buried in. In my shadow. So, so the shadow work really brought forth the aspects of. Especially with. Because there was a lot of perfectionism expected with that and that industry, as you can imagine, you kind of want perfection in computer programs. You don't want suddenly the computer program that is running. Well, we had this a couple of months ago where there was a Microsoft update that suddenly all the airports shut down because the software wasn't functioning properly. And so in a way, you do want perfection in that industry, in that field, but when the expectation on you personally is perfection and then you're expecting everybody else to be perfect like you, that's another prime setup for deep shadow. A deep shadow. So all the work I did in. In the creative mind in that training program where we were doing our own shadow work, unveiled that and brought it to light and really started to resolve some of the problems I was having in my own life because of that. As long as the unconscious remained unconscious, it was, it was kind of directing my life.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Yeah.
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B
I think a lot of people underestimate the power of the Persona to, to really control how we live in the world. And whatever we push away into the shadow, then it almost like. I mean, I know it's not there to hurt us, it's not taking revenge on us, but it kind of plays out in. In the sense that it leads us to precisely what we're not meant to be doing. In your case, working in IT or, you know, computers, that, that wasn't your destiny. But there you were right for years, studying, being good at it. There's nothing wrong with that profession, of course, but it's, it wasn't for you. And, and that's not where you needed to be. Yet. Yet we spend years doing these shadow careers that we have no business being in. But I guess, you know, I mean, how did you see it? Was it at that time, was, was it a learning experience? Was it, were you having dreams? Were you, was there a calling, in other words, from the unconscious mind?
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C
Really it was. I had another thing that kind of had fallen by the wayside when I went into the, into that career was that love of literature. I had, I was not pursuing it. I was just so, as you called it, left brained that I, I was not keeping up with my, my reading. Now I still would watch film and of course film is a wonderful story tool, but reading as a whole, it gives a depth that can never be there in, in, in visual media. But there really, no, really was not kind of a dream. There weren't dreams or that kind of things haunting me. The main, the main thing that happened though was that I had in that time been through my very, my first very serious relationship that ended or as you might call it, an animal projection that ended. And I went to therapy after that. And one of the top recommendations of the therapist, she, she was, you know, because another kind of shadow aspect of growing up in my family was people pleasing, was always trying to make, you know, keep the peace, you know, be the, be what other people wanted, be what the tribe wanted. And this therapist, you know, very insightfully saw that and said, well, what do you like to do? What are your passions? What are your callings? You know, as, as simple as that question is, it's very profound when you are a person whose Persona is about other people that, that the true deepest satisfactions were, were kind of not to be considered, only the satisfaction of those around me, especially those in authority or those that, you know, who kind of were depending on me. And so to ask that question, what do you like to do? What, what are your, what are your pleasures in life? And the first thing that came to my mind just instantly in that, in that therapy session was I love to read, but I have not been doing that. And she said, well, and this will give you an idea of the time frame of it. She said, well, there's this new store called Barnes and Noble. So this kind of tells you when, that, when they were kind of expanding nationally, right? And she said it's so great because you can get a book off the shelf, you can sit down in a nice chair or the cafe and you can flip through it and you can really kind of get an idea if you're really going to like it or not. You're not forced to stand there and make a snap decision and then get it. So you can really start falling in love with the book before you leave the store. And so I went in and of course they're huge, this huge store. And I'm like, oh, this is, this is heavenly to me. Such a selection and so on. And so I. That kind of falling, really falling in love with literature again was, was very much the, the impetus for when, when that call came of, hey, you should be a teacher. And then when, you know, when I finally felt the real opportunity for that, the question then becomes, what are you going to teach? Is it going to be this career that you've spent 15 years developing your skills and becoming really honed at and refined in your ability to do it, or is it going to be this deep passion that you have that's been latent, that's been a shadow desire, and are you going to follow that path? And of course I chose the latter. And as the Robert Frost poem says, that has made all the difference. You know that choosing that path completely was the key. I follow my deep soul.
- [17:01]
A
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B
Wow. Well, to switch to the hero's journey then. You know, Joseph Campbell talks about an initial calling, but then there's a resistance to that calling, right? A negation of that calling. Was that part of your journey as well?
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C
Now the. Sometimes the resistance comes from within. And for me that was not the case. However, the next kind of phase that happens is what Campbell called the crossing the threshold in which you do go into your new adventure and you go from your ordinary world to the adventure world. And there's an archetype there called the threshold Guardian and that is the, that is the, you know, your kind of first obstacle, your first warning about what's ahead, your first indication of some, something might push against you in your, against your desire, against your call, that call itself that's not from within, it's external. And that of course was my father. So there, there he was there at the threshold saying, you know this, you know, you're going to hurt your financial future. You're gonna, you know, you, you have so much talent and so much ability in what you've already invested your 15 years in that. Why would you give all that up to, in order to pursue this thing that you really have no idea how you're going to do at it, what you're doing. Potential is for earning and so on like that. So again, that very hard nosed and pragmatic approach and also the kind of sunk cost approach which was, well, you've already done 15 years and you've already risen in the ranks and so on. Why would you not continue? That's just throwing away, it's like wasting, wasting that opportunity. And so he was, so he was very much resisting the call for me, let's say.
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B
Right? Yeah, well, I mean from the Jungian perspective, we might say that he represented some inner, at the inner archetype of the logos or the, the animus within you that resists, you know, from within, but it appears as an external circumstance.
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C
Right.
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B
But yeah, it's amazing. Joseph Campbell's kind of formulation of the hero's journey, how, how it plays out in our lives. What's the next step after you cross that threshold? Because obviously you, you know, you went through it.
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C
Well, the, it was interesting because I, you know, I decided to, you know, before actually right before I kind of made the full decision to leave, I wanted to dip my toe in the water. And I went to both my middle, elementary, middle school alma mater and my high school alma mater and did some substitute teaching there. So again, I had never been in a classroom in that capacity. I'd only been this, this swimming coach. So I was like, well, let me again, let me see how I'm feeling and make sure. And, and as it turned out I, there was a job opening at my, at the, at that middle school level that I was, that I had gone to. And when I, when I arrived there, I immediately was put into this seventh grade English teaching position that was teaching the Iliad The Odyssey and these very things. So I went right back to that mythical kind of nursery that I'd been at, that place where I had formed my love of it. And suddenly now it's like, oh, not only are you teaching literature, but this, this mythical component that is your prime directive. And Rob, this is again, the serendipity working. And you know how it works. The, the, the, the marching orders were you're to teach this using Campbell's hero's journey as the, as the template for that. So this is incredible. There's just to walk right into that and to say, no, this is, it's, it's like destiny. It's, it's like fate that I just showed up and oh, hey, here's a job for you. And it's teaching this thing you love and this person that you've, you've kind of fallen in love with, it has this, this structure for how to read epics. It was, it was completely mind blowing to walk into that and, and be like, yes, of course this is where I'm supposed to be.
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B
It puts you back on track. Like, yes is where you need to be. Go, go begin again. Or you know, go back to, to that base and, and begin your journey again.
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C
Yes.
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B
Where did it lead you from there?
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C
Well, after a few years of teaching in the middle school at that seventh grade level, I now, I really enjoy 12 and 13 year olds. Don't get me wrong. I really. There's a, a term that I've heard you and Deb use on your podcast, so you both know is the pu Er eternus. I, I have a bit of puah eternus in me. And so being a teacher of, of puellas and pu Ers, the eternal child, but also right in that time frame of when they're, they're kind of starting to do developmental individuation. Not if not Jungian individuation, right on that cusp. I could kind of be both. I could be an adult and be that kind of, you know, in that way. And I could also have this mindset of a child and relate to them in that way. So. But I knew that kind of intellectually. The part of me said, you really should continue to go further into this academically and study it, study literature and study, you know, the deeper realms of what you're teaching. And so that's when I decided to enroll at the University of South Florida, which I mentioned before is in Tampa. So I continued teaching. I was full time teacher and started to attend the Masters in Literature at USF as they call it. So I was, you know, parallel development there. So, so I was, you know, getting more and more depth into my teaching of the seventh grade literature and then this really highly academic depth of grad school.
- [24:33]
B
Wow. Well, psychologically at this point Jung would say because the content that's in that, that has been pushed into the shadow, into the unconscious mind because that content threatens the Persona. There's a, there's a period of kind of disorientation, of kind of, you know, who am I? And, and a transitional transformation. Right, that's, that's happening psychologically. What do you remember of that or how did you experience that phase?
- [25:10]
C
I would say the primary ways that that manifested was more in, in, in, in the, the teacher aspect of it versus the literary kind of the depth of literature or so on that part of it. Because I, as much as I was trying to conform to my, my father's expectations, as I said before, the one thing that I was pushing against as I, as I had mentioned also was becoming a leader, becoming a manager, becoming a director, becoming this kind of managerial. I was very much of oh, I don't want to have to lead people. Oh, I don't want to have to be in charge. Oh, I'm a great worker, I'll contribute. And, but that kind of other, that higher responsibility and the bigger picture of that and dealing with everybody's personalities, that was, that was a resistance that I had as much as other parts of my Persona were. Oh yes, exactly. Follow what he did. Absolutely do, do all this kind of stuff. So it's, it's often a mixed bag of these things that you're accepting or not accepting from a parental figure. It's not, it's not all or nothing. So suddenly this, this kind of finally, as much as I had done the coaching, the swim coaching thing, this was much more rigorous. This was much more, you know, especially because you're with them so much longer from 8 in the morning till in the afternoon. This is, you're really in a mode of, of managing and leading these, you know, these 12 year olds. And so suddenly it was like, well, now I had to do that part. I was in a complete loss state, you know. And of course the initial kind of way that I approached it was what are my role models? And again, that would be my father, which was, you know, this kind of very stern and very authoritarian kind of approach to it and maybe threatening and this kind of thing. And that was so that part of the struggle between who am I now? You Know, I'm in this position where I'm called upon to maintain order and have goals of curriculum and so on like that. But this, this thing that I've been resisting all along, that I didn't see myself at all as that kind of. As a leader. Yes. You're being, I was being forced to step into that. So that definitely was this kind of back and forth of who, who am I in this, you know, who, who, you know, what role models other than my father were there. What, what's my own inner feeling about it and that I learned honestly just as much from the students that I was interacting with as I did from my own kind of contemplation about it. So that it's funny because if I went back and asked some of those students I had in the early days, like, oh, what did you think about me as a teacher? They might have some moments where they pointed out, well, you know, you were, you know, you might have been a little more harsh or a little more kind of again, Apollonian or saturnine, leaning into that kind of world versus other modes of being a, a teacher, which again, this kind of aspects of management.
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B
And leadership in the hero's journey. There's these tests, Trials. Right, that we have to go through.
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C
Yes.
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B
What can you share about your tests?
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C
I mean, this, this aspect that I'm saying to you right now is that that really was the, the, the hardest test was really finding.
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B
A.
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C
Well, I mean, it's, it was integration before I knew what integration was. That's really what that's about. It's like, what. So I've got these aspects of Persona, I've got these aspects of shadow that I didn't know. And then suddenly these are coming into the, the crucible of, of, of this calling. I knew the calling was right. I'm like, this is where I'm supposed to be. This is, this is where the passion is. This is what I'm supposed to do. However, these kind of day to day details of, you know, how do I keep people on task and do I need to keep them on task the whole time? When can I let them go? When can I not have them on task? And that kind of the experiment that was happening every day of how to, how to play with all of the factors that are kind of expected of that, but also emerge as it being very grounded and very authentic from me rather than I'm just following the patterns that I knew or I'm, you know, I'm experimenting with something that I don't believe in, but I'm giving it a shot. Those kind of struggles with basic. I mean, the root of it is how to. How to be an authority without being authoritarian. Yeah, that. That real though, that, honestly, Rob, was the biggest trials and the road of trials and tests was how to be. To fill that position that I was, well, scared of because I. Because my. My example of somebody in power in my home was not one I really wanted to follow, but as you well know, also resisting the very thing, you know, that also ties you to it. So, you know, it's very complex. And so really, the inner. It was this inner work of how do I. How do I come up with my own individuated, integrated version of myself that can be. That can follow this calling that again, I knew was correct, but is. Is coming from a place that is very centered and not again, in Jungian terms, to Persona or two shadow. How to. How to. How to integrate those two things and make it feel real. And I. I feel like as I started to do it to become that, the classroom changed. I mean, this is classic, you know, as you well know, with your clients and students and so on like that, that once you start doing inner work, somehow the outer world starts changing around you. Those you're in relationship especially. And I'm in every year I was in relationship with, you know, 40 new, new faces. And so. But I could. I could just tell that. That the position that I held, I was stepping into that place of an integrated power. But again, this was all before even knowing what shadow work was or really, you know, again encountering it via creative mind. But it was an. It was happening naturally. It was happening organically in this situation of me saying, how do I become the teacher that I'm meant to be? How do I step into this role that I. That is absolutely. And know is the calling. But I need to. I need to figure out how. How to make it work. So that was the real trials and tests was. Was that how do. How do I step into it? How do I embody it?
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B
Yeah, yeah. I'd love to continue along this path, but I also wanted to ask you about the myth of the Odyssey, because I know you are teaching that and, and you're. You're pretty much an expert on it because you. You've had to teach it, and it's, you know, the best way to learn something is to teach it. What insights have you gotten as you've, you know, as you've grown and. And studied deeper into mythology and Joseph Campbell's work about that myth? What what has it taught you? What, what has it revealed to you?
- [33:09]
C
Well, the deepest understanding. And, and Campbell does talk about this, but I even I, as I had read it, as you were saying, you know, I was reading it every single year for, for the 10 years I was teaching in the middle school. And so every year going deeper and deeper and deeper and just soaking in the themes of it. The deepest thing that I was getting out of it was here's a guy that, you know, he's, he, he's a king, he's an incredible warrior, very kind of successful in life and he really kind of had it all going on. He never really, you know, he had some bumps in the road before the timeframe of the Odyssey, but you know, he was, he was managing it just fine. And always in this position of, of, of being centered and powerful and then suddenly he is trying to get home and everything is going against him. All these forces are pitted against him, all whether it's mythological forces or natural forces or power structures and foreign kingdoms and so on. So he, that story of going from again, Persona, which is king, ruler, archetype, right. To suddenly, oh, you are not that at all. You are not the king or the warrior or that you are, you are in positions of lowliness and your power as this, as, as a single human being cannot stand against these divine, you know, supernatural, super powerful creatures and, and other other things he's encountering where it's just, you know, him against overwhelming odds. So it's, it's again, this, it's the journey of going into his shadow, which is, no, I'm not this, I'm not in control. I'm not all powerful. I'm not what my life has all been about up to that point. So it's him, if I can borrow a term here, him using. The one thing about Odysseus is he is very clever and so he uses his creative mind.
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B
Yeah.
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C
To, to, to work in these situations and to learn humility and to learn how to approach different situations in, in new ways that as this kind of powerful ruler and warrior would not, would not, he would not even be encountered those kind of situations. So it really was this, this embodiment of the flexibility to go through the shadow work. The flexibility to say I'm, I'm meeting these things that are my fears of being weak, of being imprisoned, of being totally powerless, of not being home in a place where I have all the tools available to me to be in my power. How do I, how do I work in within all those, those Trials and tests that are really in the big picture.
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B
His shadow work, it was his idea to build the horse. The Trojan horse, right?
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C
Yes.
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B
I always thought of that as a definitely a trickster move there.
- [36:23]
C
Oh yes. Yeah. And again, he, he, he, that's really his kind of saving grace is his, his flexible mind and his trickster mind because the, one of the aspects of the trickster, and I know that very recently who had a, a podcast about that, you've had some in the past too. But one of the aspects of it that I really like is this ability to say to, to have that there's a system that, that I'm up against. That it, that given my, the current power that I have, I cannot, I cannot face it, I cannot handle it. What is another way that's beyond my mindset currently, beyond my paradigm currently to approach that situation, to, to have a different result. Now, of course, when I say one of my favorite parts of the Odyssey, it's pretty much, I could say that about the whole Odyssey, but one of my favorite parts is the, his encounter with the Cyclops. He gets trapped inside the cave with the Cyclops, giant, one eyed, you know, creature. So the, the stone of this cave, only the Cyclops can move. He and his, the men that are with him inside, they are, they're physically unable to get out of this cave. They can't use brute force. So again he has to go into the trickster mode to say, well if we can't, if we can't, you know, force it open, what other methodology can. Can we have? So, so that, that trickster aspect of him is very much about how do we, how do we achieve what we need to. But go beyond our mindset, go beyond our paradigm, go outside of the normal way of, of thinking, which again is so much caught up in your preferred archetypes, so much caught up in your preferred habituated Persona ways of being. So the thing about the trickster is that it does kind of. It, it is, it allows other methods to, to, to, to approach things.
- [38:29]
B
It. Yeah, it definitely brings in creativity into the situation. You know, the, the big picture of course is he's trying to get back home, right? It's a journey of return like the, the movie that's coming up pretty soon. That's the name of it, this return. And of course he's returning to Penelope, his wife and his kingdom. In Jungian terms, of course, this is the integration of the anima back to. Back to soul. But in his journey back, he, he's. There's a couple Islands where there, there are feminine principles that he has to encounter. What can you tell us about that? Those, those experiences that are kind of the, the trials for him in relationship to the anima. And of course, you, you mentioned a relationship in your past that ended. If you, if you can, or whatever parts you can share about that. How do you see that integrated into your own hero's journey?
- [39:49]
C
Well, the, the, the story of the Trojan War started with the. What's called the Judgment of Paris, which is this, this basic beauty contest where Paris, who's a prince of Troy, is kind of. It's forced upon him to make a decision about who is the most beautiful goddess between Hera and Athena and Aphrodite. And so of course, he chooses Aphrodite, and that kind of precipitates the events of the, of the Trojan War. So this aspect of those three goddesses is still resonating in the story of Odysseus coming home. Now, because he is a man of mind and strategy, his kind of primary goddess of those three is Athena. So she kind of is his main patroness. However, it's interesting that for so much of this journey home, she is not present at all. So she kind of abandons him. So probably because again, he's always been this strategy guy. He's always kind of had that mindset. So it, you know, it's one thing to have your patron or patroness be exactly like you, but the journey in deep into yourself is to figure out what's not like you. So this, that's kind of the, the trick of it. And so the two aspects, the, the two other aspects that would be there are Hera, you know, who's the queen of the gods, Zeus's wife, and Aphrodite, again, goddess, goddess of love and beauty. So this, the, the two goddesses that he encounters along the way are Circe and Calypso. Circe and Calypso. And Campbell kind of brilliantly said, well, Cersei, it really represents the Hera aspect because she is a ruler of her, her island. She is that kind of female, female power figure. And Calypso technically also kind of on her own island, but not nowhere. She's not in that Hera energy. She's in the Aphrodite energy, which is far more that into the sexual and beauty aspect. So symbolically, Odysseus has to integrate and of course in the book, in the Odyssey physically integrates with these two goddesses. And it's never really even again questioned whether he's being unfaithful to his wife because again, he knows that that is his ultimate expression of anima. But he must integrate these other aspects because he's been. So, again, the Persona is Athena, the shadow is Aphrodite and Hera. So he has to spend time with these two kind of representatives of that before he can return home. And it's funny because the minute he steps foot on his home island, there Athena is again. So she's been absent this whole time, kind of working in the background, but never face to face with them, never whatever. So she stays out of the picture until he's ready for the final integration and the return to his wife. So. Isn't that interesting? Isn't that interesting?
- [43:11]
B
Amazing. Amazing. These dangers of the. The feminine principle, or the. Not so much dangers in kind of a violent way, but the. These seductions, almost like the power of the. The feminine principle to seduce you and take you off your course. This seems to be interwoven in the theme of him returning back home.
- [43:40]
C
Yes.
- [43:42]
B
Is. How do you see that reflected in. In our individuation process?
- [43:50]
C
I think that it really is. I mean, again, this is the. The Odyssey is written from this male perspective. And so if you want to kind of flip it for, you know, the. The. The anima to the animus, that's totally doable as well. So, you know, if I speak about it in this term, it is. It is changeable given the individual. But it really is, as I was saying in this. In this kind of Campbell's reading of. Of the Odyssey, it really is this. This part of. What is it that is within us? This. These latent qualities within us that need to be. That need to be integrated. I mean, it's. It's. Again, very basically, it's going to shadow and integration stuff. And so many times via nurture or nature, whatever aspects of the anima that are kind of allowed to be in the Persona, we're going to develop that because it's. Well, it's, you know, it's. It's. We enjoy it, we like it, it helps us fit in. But when these other aspects go latent, they, again, they will. They will start popping up in ways that you don't want them to pop up. They will start showing that they need attention. They will start tugging on you. And so some of this danger aspect that you're talking about is this really. Even though it kind of plays out in myth as maybe it. Maybe it is physical danger. Cassercy, the one that I mentioned before, she threatens to turn. She has already turned Odysseus as men and threatens to turn him into animals.
- [45:29]
B
Right, right.
- [45:30]
C
So that, so there is a threat to his kind of autonomy and his, you know, his identity from her. So. Yes, but, but all of that is to say that the non integration is really the threat.
- [45:44]
B
Right.
- [45:45]
C
The continuing to have it in the shadow is really the threat. So you, all of this you have to read super metaphorically and symbolically. You can't, you cannot really look at it as real. This is really. And again, in the story, real women or real, you know, this is what I have to look out for in my life. Externally, it's more, these are symbolic ways of reading what's going on in the, with the internal world.
- [46:13]
B
Now you studied the mythology and English and, or literature. What's your sense? How did, how did the ancient Greeks and other people use these stories and these myths for their own benefit, for their own individuation?
- [46:35]
C
Well, again, I'm kind of leaning on Campbell because he's kind of my main guru for the understanding of myth. He talks about the four functions of myth and if I can go over them very briefly, the first function of myth is to put you in relationship to mystery. We live in this mysterious thing called the universe that we are trying to figure out and yet it seems so unsurmountable what it means, what we're supposed to do, how it operates. And so that the first function is to say, yes, these, these forces that are out there, that are so huge again and that operate within us and outside of us. You know, there's something about that there is a story to it, there's a narrative to it. So that's the first function. The second function is the. Well, I might be getting them out of order is the, it's putting, it's the cosmological. And that one is that, well, how did, how did, in this mysterious place, how did things come to be? How these are, what are the origin stories? So the first way of kind of trying to, to get in relation to it is understanding where it came from. We all, we all love to know the origin story. So that's the second function. You know, a lot of creation myths and things like that. The third one is this kind of communal function in that myths are of a community, of a society, of a culture, and they kind of help form the ideas of the culture into the stories. So, you know, like the American, you know, American myth, like the cowboy myth, let's say. That's you, that's very American. Well, that's how America was built. And These cowboys are out there and doing these things. So it's kind of a cultural artifact that says, how are these, how is, is that playing out not from the beginning of, of creation, but in our, in, as, as time has gone along in society? And then the final function is the one that you and I are the most interested in. And that's the psychological function. And that is to say these, all of these, these archetypal situations and figures are all within you. And they, and they, they represent aspects of your inner, your inner pantheon, your, your inner theological makeup, you know, and so that, so all of those are going on at the same time whenever you read a myth. And so the, you know, that fourth function is going. Well, they're all going on whether you, you know them or not. Whether, you know, when you hear a story and you just hear it and you like it, all of that might be going on at the same time and you not really be aware of it. But here's the thing, especially with, with, you know, the Greeks in Rome and you know, Indian as well. But when you see these kind of divine figures, these gods and goddesses acting in very kind of human ways, you really, that again, you're really merging with, that's kind of an initial merging with the divine. That's, that's this way to say the divine is in you and you are in the divine. So you say, oh, Zeus is, you know, Zeus is, is acting this way, is jealous or whatever. Oh wait, I'm jealous too. Or I want to be in power too, or I. So it's this reflectiveness of the, the quality which, yes, it is in us as humans, but it also is this incredibly powerful and mysterious thing that's going on. Why do I feel the need to be in power? Why do I feel love, this incredible force? So all those aspects, the fact that they're showing up in these super, super powerful ways in stories that pulls you into this relate that in and of itself is pulling into relationship with the divine, with the transcendent. That makes sense.
- [50:31]
B
Beautiful. Which brings me to the current era. Are we still creatures of myth? Do we still need these myths? What's going on now with the AI, with technology, with, you know, us stealing these powers from the gods in essence.
- [50:58]
C
Well, it's funny that you, you know, that, you know, because that, that references of course to Prometheus, you know, one of the great Greek origin myths, you know, the creation of humankind. And Prometheus, you know, saying, well, these people need an energy source and that energy has to come from Somewhere. So let's get it from the gods. So I, here's, here's the, the short version of the answer. That is the archetypes that are underlying all of this, they can operate in their. Operating in any kind of story. It doesn't matter. It can be the story. The front page news today. So, you know, a quote, factual story, as factual as it can be, it can operate in just a story in a. That you, that you buy in a bookstore, whether it's, you know, kind of a dime store novel or it's, you know, like a great classic, you know, like, like something that literary, you know, it's very more. Much more literary. It can operate in fairy tales, you know, so, so but once you get into this world of fairy tales and fantasy and somewhat in science fiction, but you're going beyond the realms of quote, everyday experience into things that are beyond that. And then of course, you have these mythic stories with these incredibly powerful beings. It doesn't matter how kind of based in reality versus these super, you know, the realm of myth, which just seems almost like an entirely different. Numinous is the word I like to use with that. I love that quality to it. They all are manifestation of archetype. It's just that something about myth and the way it conveys those archetypes, it really takes us to a different place. It really is the closest to connecting us. Like Campbell was saying to that mystery to this thing of the divine is in us, and we're in the divine. Now when we see stories that are just kind of, you know, read stories or watch movies or whatever that are more based in reality, we can say, oh, that character. I see myself in them and them in me. That's. That's one thing. But they're still very kind of grounded in, in humanness. But the minute we see it with these, with these immortals, with these, these, these figures that are just. That seem so transcendent to us. The minute we see that archetypal resonance that, that there's something very special about that and we crave that very much. We, we don't want, we don't want to just only be. Only be kind of seen as only human and only fallible and only weak and only that there's some aspect that we want projected into this incredible powers and that again, like, for example, like the, you know, these superhero movies that have come out recently very much are in that mode of myth. You know, we're in that kind of mythic realm. Yes, they, they humanize them and they're funny. And they, you know, they have quirks about them too. But. But this idea of somehow we are in. We can transcend and be larger than what we are, that's really the, The, The. The pull of that mythic paradigm on us, it still pulls on us. We want something of that fantasy to say. To say we can't just get stuck in the reality as we see it. We need something beyond that. And so that when the archetypes are playing there, it kind of. It gives us. It jazzes us, it gives us. It energizes us in ways that just common stories don't do as much. And poetry is another kind of way that. That happens. Poetic language is very much in that realm of. It's very different. It's very. It has its own quality to it. So when you read poetry, that also can kind of tap into mythic and those type of realms, because it is so different. So I think we'll always crave something, be, you know, something beyond. And so myth, whether ancient or something that's kind of newly made up will always resonate.
- [55:07]
B
Yeah. And ritual as well. Right. You know, Joseph Campbell talks about ritual in a powerful way. So. So there's this gray area between the arts and. And mythology, you know, as well as religion. Right. Vivekananda says all religions have a philosophy, a ritual and a mythology. And so it seems to be a central component of religious. Of the religious human experience. Now, we cannot create myths or can we? Is. What is. What is Joseph Campbell saying?
- [55:46]
C
No, no, they. They. They arise spontaneously, just as dreams do. They come out of. They come out of the collective unconscious. So we can. We can, you know, as authors do, like we're talking about marvel or whatever. They can take these things that are arising and frame them and do things like that and make stories that resonate. But true myth cannot be directed. It. It is. It is a natural phenomenon. Just like a dream.
- [56:11]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. So how do you see AI and the, let's say, crispr, These, you know, kind of genetic engineering, these powers that are really unprecedented in human history. Now we're getting to that threshold where we will have godlike powers in many, many ways. Is this a special period or is it the same? Were these ancient myths kind of preparing us for what was coming up? Or how do you see that junction in our time?
- [56:54]
C
Well, it's kind of a. Two kind of intersecting things are going on there. One is this kind of Jungian principle of balance. The psyche, it always. It always is seeking balance, even though, again, there's this fight between, you know, with the ego being there and oh, we're going to have this in the Persona and this in the. In the shadow. And, and so. But. But it's still there. It's those two separate things are longing for reunion. They want to get together. And again, deeper than that, the animal animus and then the collective unconscious. So. And dreams, as we were just talking about, those are the psych. Another way that the psyche is trying to balance. So something about that. And of course the universe tries to seek balance too. It's always in that kind of natural mode. So we're just kind of following the way of the universe, you know, from which we emerge. So at the same time I think of the. The myth of Arachne. You know, the myth of Arachne where she is this fantastic seamstress Sower and she's. Everybody praise her. Oh, you're so great, you're so wonderful. And her ego gets a little large with that and she challenges Athena, who is also this, a goddess of weaving, to a contest. And. And Athena basically loses that contest. But she, but what happens is then she changes Arachne into a spider. So the, the consequence of overstepping, of going too far in one direction into, you know, into to basically becoming this, this force of nature, becoming the archetype itself rather than being, you know, having some kind of balance of archetypes is. There is a kind of a swing back of. Of the pendulum. Yes, you will be incredible weaver, but you will do it as a spider, not as what you thought you were. Okay, so, so to me, Rob, like, like, you know, I see, you know, when these things kind of arise and we get a little fear out of them, if the psyche, you know, and I even say the soul, even beyond, you know, the, I mean the capital S self, you know, the big psyche, right? The big, the universal psyche, it will push us into balance. If we get out of balance, the balance will come in some way. So of course we want to be strategic about it as we were talking about before with the, you know, with Athena and the trickster and so like that. But it, you know, we, we as humans, this again, that story of, of Arachne is classic. We as humans, we. We get in our egos, we say, oh, we. We've got the power. We're so great, we're so wonderful. And yet when we beat up, we meet up against that, that ultimate force of nature, archetypal force. And it says, you are not all that you think you are. There is something that some Humility you need from that. And it will push you back in the other direction. And that's exactly what Athena did in that story. So I think with these technologies, I think that, you know, whatever egos and whatever are pushing into that, who knows when the reckoning is going to come from whatever direction where the psyche says, you've gone too far now, now things are going to go in some other way. But so you have to kind of trust either the wisdom part that we won't get that the egos will temper or that, you know, even if, if our egos get too big, some, some, something will come to, to force the balance situation.
- [60:38]
B
Right. The. The hero always gets burned when trying to steal the power from the gods. Right. And of course you have Frankenstein, Mary Shelley's great masterpiece, which arose from a dream that she had. So it, it came kind of from the collective unconscious.
- [60:58]
C
Yes.
- [60:59]
B
And it seems to. To play out all the time it. With all our technologies. Right. That they give us something of, of the power, but we have to pay a big price for it as well.
- [61:13]
C
Yes.
- [61:16]
B
Yeah. Do you see us as human beings as a species and certainly as a, a small planet now still able to use mythology for these purposes that you mentioned, kind of cosmological view of ourselves as a species and as a planet, giving us a sense of community and kind of bringing us together. Right. For good as well as a. As an individual psychological template for our growth and our personal development? Is that still possible or are we. Have we outgrown the phase of mythology and are now into scientism or another, another era?
- [62:13]
C
Well, I'm gonna first. Well, first of all, you're asking a person that works for the Julie Channel Foundation. So I think, you know, the kind of. My root answer of that is going to be yes, yes, I do believe it. Two things, though. One is that, you know, the mission of jcf, as we call it, is this kind of educational purpose to say that, that it is possible. But you need guidance, you need insight, you need wisdom, you need a method of viewing these things that will awaken and enlighten and enliven you. And the second thing is, and again, I leaned into what I was just talking about with, with Arachne and so on like that. Is there is this, this, this balancing aspect to the psyche that says if we, you know, as we lean too far into materialism, scientism, whatever, something, something is going to pull us back from that extreme. And I think the fact that the Campbell foundation is as popular, I guess would be the word, but I mean, the people are engaging with us, people that, you know, I can see, we can see from social media because, you know, you can get all kinds of metrics and so on from who's clicking and reading and things like that, that there's a hunger for it. If it were not something that were out there in the consciousness, we'd put all this kind of offering out there, this content, and nobody would care, nobody would click, nobody would keep coming back, maybe one time, but they wouldn't continue to engage with it. So I think the signs are there that at least in some part of the collective psyche, the people are wanting this and are gaining benefit out of this lens that says, yes, it's still, this is, you know, Campbell died in the 80s, but it's not something that's an artifact that died 40 years ago. As far as this approach goes to how do we still continue to get the extract, the, the benefits of, of the mythological world? So I, again, I think there's hope given the evidence. And I also think that this kind of belief in, you know, Jung's idea of the psyche is always wanting to balance. And, and again, as I mentioned earlier, the dreams are, are a part of that. And we do, you know, the part of, the, part of the function of dream is to, is for balance. And so as Campbell said, myth and dream come from the same place. So you know, that, that longing for that is so natural, very natural. But you know, whether it's dream interpretation or myth interpretation, that you got to have guides, you got to have, you know, thought leaders, people to say, here's how we unfold this, here's how it's practical and applicable now. And, and hopefully me and my team are just a part of that going on in the world right now.
- [65:20]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing work that you guys are doing. We totally support your work. And yeah, for those people that haven't heard about Joseph Campbell foundation, is it related to Pacifica?
- [65:37]
C
They, we often work in, in, in joint programs with them. In fact, we just, there was a, the Pacifica extension, which is kind of an enrichment adult education that's not related to their kind of graduate classes that they teach there. We just finished up a 12 or so week program on the life and work of Campbell of which I taught two, two sessions of. And my, my fellow JCF folks taught some sessions and that's fantastic. And so Pacifica has a wonderful online educational infrastructure where you can watch, you know, you can watch the, the content and you can interact with, on, on chat boards and so on like that. So it's great to kind of work in partnership with them. And so, so they, and, and of course, as far as mythological studies go, they are, you know, if not the top, one of the top institutions in, in the United States anyway, that are really still heavily focused on academ, the academic side of it. Now, again, though, Campbell, as academic as he was, and you know, if you read some of his work, you're like, okay, this is, this is a little intellectual, but it's very much now focused on this pragmatic, applicable. How does it, what does it mean to you in the here and now? And it is more on this mission of, as we were talking about before, making Myth still be accessible and still be not just information, but transformation.
- [67:06]
B
Right. Yeah. Well, we'll definitely post some of the links for those people that are interested in accessing your organization.
- [67:16]
C
Thank you.
- [67:17]
B
Yeah, I mean, I could continue for hours, but please come back sometime. And so let's continue these beautiful conversations on mythology. We really appreciate it. Scott, thank you so much for your work. Keep up the good work. If there's anything we can do for you, let us know and come back and see us soon.
- [67:40]
C
Thank you. Robin, thank you for Creative Mind in the program that again, I went through and was transformative to me and underpins all my work now with Myth and Beyond.
- [67:52]
B
Beautiful. Love it. Stay well and see you soon.
- [67:57]
C
Thank you.
- [67:59]
A
Thank you for joining us. And don't forget to subscribe to Creative Mind Soul Sessions and join us next week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life with Creative Mind Soul Session. See you next time.
- [68:15]
B
Sa.