← Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Jung on purpose with CreativeMind, hosted by Deborah and Dr. Rob Maldonado, creators of the NeuroMindra coaching method based on Jungian psychology, non dual spirituality and social neuroscience. Join us each week as we explore personal growth for purpose seekers and the incredible inner journey of becoming your true self. Let's get started.
- [00:32]
B
Foreign hello. Welcome back to another episode of Jung on Purpose. I am Deborah Maldonado.
- [00:42]
C
And I'm Dr. Rob.
- [00:43]
B
And we are continuing our series On Purpose to kick off our new podcast name. If you are wondering about the name, we did change it. It used to be Soul Session. So it's the same great content, just a little adjustments for focusing on purpose and still including all those wonderful Jungian psychology, neuroscience and Eastern spirituality topics. And so today we're going to dive into relationships for the next few episodes and how it relates to purpose. And we thought a good place. Well, I thought a good place to start, I suggested to Rob, is that we talk about breakups because I think those are real pivotal points for people in finding their purpose. I know for me that was the case, and I don't know about for Rob if he.
- [01:28]
C
Yeah, I have a few stories, a.
- [01:30]
B
Few breakups this year, and I just know that a lot of our clients come to us, have come to us and entered the process because of a breakup. So I wanted to start with a story that we always like to start with. So get a little metaphor in here to understand the journey that we're talking about. And so the Sumerians told the story of this radiant goddess of love and life and. And her name was Inanna. And she ruled over the heavens and the earth. But something in her remained incomplete. For all her beauty and power, she never faced the realm of shadows. So she chose to descend into the underworld, the domain of her sister. And I'm not going to pronounce her name because it's Eresh Kingal, but I'm sure I'm messing it up. But she was the Queen of Death. At each of the seven gates, as she descended into the underworld, she was stopped. And at each gate, she had to surrender something precious. Her crown, her jewels, her robe, her staff. And piece by piece, her titles, her adornments, her protections were all stripped away. By the time she reached her sister's throne. She stood naked and vulnerable. No longer a goddess draped in glory, but a soul laid bare. There she was, struck down and killed by her sister. A death of identity. A death of everything she's ever been. But the story doesn't end there. After three Days through divine gr, she was revived and allowed to return to the world above. Yet she did not rise unchanged. She ascended carrying the wisdom of death, a deep authority that came from not power or roles, but from knowing her wholeness. And so when we think about a breakup, whether it's a loss of a loved one, loss of a long term relationship, breakup, divorce, or even like a death of a partner, it feels as though we are facing this kind of dissent and kind of the role we played has been stripped away from us. And so when we think about that, we think about, well, what's underneath that. All the masks that we wore in relationships is a chance to know our own soul and know our purpose.
- [03:35]
C
Absolutely. And mythology has such an important place in Jungian psychology. And Jungian thought gives us a proper, Jung gives us a proper way of understanding myths, that they're not stories in the traditional sense. In other words, this, this not didn't necessarily happen, but that it's talking about our soul's journey, something important about our psychology, about our mission in life, about our, the way we do our lives. And the important thing Jung emphasizes that nobody writes these myths. In other words, you can't really find the origin in an author or in a particular village or culture. They seem to arise spontaneously, like the collective dream.
- [04:21]
B
And there's various versions of this, so many versions. So you hear the story, I mean, the idea that she was, after three days arisen from the dead, that sounds a lot like Christianity. So you see a lot of the metaphors kind of based on culture, are there?
- [04:38]
C
Yeah. In other words, they're, they are archetypal patterns that emerge from the unconscious already made the death, because it's a symbolic language, doesn't mean that she got killed. It simply means she was transformed. It's transformation going into the underworld, that's a typical part of the hero's journey story that the hero has to go into the underworld. Meaning psychologically we have to go into our unconscious mind. We cannot find the answer through our senses out here. If we try to figure it out only externally, at the conscious level, we're not going to find the soul. We're simply going to find excuses, adaptations, ways of adapting to society, which are important aspects of our life, but they're not purpose driven, they're not real elements of our soul work.
- [05:35]
B
And so when we lose a relationship, there's many layers that happen psychologically to us. From a neuroscience perspective, we know that our brains sync up with the person we love. And so if that person, whether it's lost they pass away or they're not in our life anymore. The brain feels kind of out of balance because it's looking for that sinking. It's so used to syncing with that other person. And this is longer term relationships, not like a couple days, but when you're living with someone and you're syncing with them. And so your brain is sending a signal neurologically that something is weird and something's off and something's missing. And then the other part is the Persona is this identity structure that, that we have of I'm a wife, I'm a mother, you know, a partner or a husband. And that, that identity structure. A married woman versus a single woman. I'm a divorcee. All of a sudden we have these new titles, a widow. I remember when my dad died, my mother was talking about this widow. It was like a day after he died. And she said, oh yeah, she's a widow. And then she stopped for a moment, she goes, wait, I'm a widow. Like it just even hit her, that title has changed. And so we go through those relation, these like identity structures as well. And so the other, other part is the emotional part of what happens when we. Things are taken away from us reveals more of the emotional patterns that we might have paid attention to early in the relationship.
- [07:04]
C
Yeah, there's a. There's a lot to breakups and ending of relationships and kind of transitioning out of those. Those important relationships in our lives. One of them is that we should not always see them as failures. Often people talk about, I lost the relationship or it failed. That's one interpretation we can say because every relationship opens up something in us and prepares us for something beyond that. I wouldn't say bigger or better. Just simply something that we needed to learn and take into our lives that is going to prepare us and make us a. Perhaps a better partner in the next relationship. So they're not necessarily failures. They're not necessarily just, oh, I made a mistake. Like some people say, I chose the wrong partner or I fell out of love. It's simply that it was an important part of our lives and then that we had to move on.
- [08:04]
B
And then even with the death, finding a sense of. Or loss, you find a new sense of independence that you wouldn't have been had if you were still in that relationship. You know that you're depending on this person and it kind of. It kept you small maybe. And then by leaving or that relationship ending where the person passing away, there's an opportunity for us to, you know, recapture some Parts of us that we weren't able to express in that relationship. Whether it could been like a 40 year old marriage that was wonderful and beautiful, you know, but then there's this new phase or I'm discovering another part of myself, so nothing's lost. I think a lot of times though, when we're younger, especially before we're 35, we pursue relationships to fill the void of purpose. So we feel like those ma. Like if I just for me, I remember just, I just need to have. Be married. Like I don't want to be single anymore. I want to have that Mrs. In front of my name and I want to check the married box in the my tax return and not be single or get a plus one to a wedding. You know, it was all about this kind of the identity of having the things that socially you felt. Right. I always felt embarrassed going to weddings alone. Like people were feeling sorry for me because I wasn't matched up yet. And there's a lot of expectation and people that are single can feel it too of everyone saying, oh, I know someone I can introduce you to. Because people are uncomfortable around people not matched up, like it's supposed to be that way. And so we end up thinking our purpose is to find that partner and we ignore like what the other purpose of our life is. And then if we do that, chase relationships from the mask, the Persona, we end up repeating patterns and staying in that same pattern until we find the purpose.
- [09:50]
C
Yeah. And not to diminish the, the grieving of that loss of relationships or the lack of sometimes just like you say, just I'm not in a relationship and therefore I feel lonely or like an outsider. Not to diminish all that because those are important feelings. And when we say there's something to learn, that's where you're going to learn it in what comes up for you emotionally when you experience those things. And there's nothing wrong with grieving a relationship. You should grieve it because it is, it's almost like the death of that us that you used to be.
- [10:29]
B
Yeah, the death of us to make way. For me, I, I really like that. And I do want to say too that we don't just single people don't just want to find that person. You know, they do want to find that true love. And, and, and you know, I think the ego can hijack that process and hijack it into feeling the urgency or to have that identity versus coming from the purpose. And for me, I know that I needed to find my purpose before I Found true love. I was, I was looking for someone to fill this void in me. I felt that Tom Cruise incomplete, you complete me. I was like, well, when I find that person, that soulmate, then I'll feel complete. Then I can pursue what I truly love and there will be two incomes and financially it'll be easier. And now I had to like basically face the, the breakup. And you know, when I was 36, I was engaged. I broke the engagement. I lost my house because we broke up. So we had to sell off the house we lived in. I had, I got laid off from my job that same week. So there was this whole upheaval. I felt like that princess who got everything taken away and start over again. And that was another time. I lived in a basement. I lived in a basement twice in my progress to my purpose. I don't live in a basement anymore. But it was that through that I was just on the wrong track. And I always tell you, Rob, that God looked at my life and said, hey, I think she's on the wrong track here. She's in the wrong job, she's with the wrong person. She's in not wrong. But she's like, this isn't what she. Her full self expression is. And so it was almost like I had everything taken away on the external, so I had to go inward. And the book I picked up around that time was the Power of Now. And it was really interesting because it wasn't like super deep. It was like your thoughts are always thinking of the future or the past. They're never in the moment. And it really got me to slow down and stop chasing out there and just really get to know me and who I was. And it really took me on this journey of really finding out what I needed to do with my life. And you know, and that's. I don't think you would have been attracted to corporate Debbie. I had to find my purpose before I met you.
- [12:34]
C
So yeah, it makes sense, right? Because if you don't know who you are and what you're doing in this life, how are you going to find that perfect match for yourself, you know, your soulmate? You have to find yourself first. Who are you as a soul? Then you can offer that and share that with others. If we are externally wanting somebody to fulfill that soulfulness for you, that's really unfair to the other person. You're putting a lot of responsibility on their shoulders. That that's not theirs, that's not their purpose or that's not their work.
- [13:10]
A
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- [14:24]
B
It'S like we're an empty cup and we're saying you need to fill my cup. But then if you're empty, you don't have anything to give that other person. You're just taking from them.
- [14:31]
C
That's right. So it always goes back to that external validation that we're seeking from the other. If we're approaching it that way, that's not a good way to match up. We might stay together and make it work, but we're never going to really feel complete in that process.
- [14:50]
B
And I think that when two people are both in touch with their soul, in touch with their purpose, living from that place outside of the Persona, they begin that process. It's that unchanging part. Like when we think about Eastern philosophy, the soul is not changing. It's pure. It's untouched by the world. If you both know that place, all the changes in life, money, struggles, challenges with people, sick family members, you know, death of family, all the tragedies that happen in life, you could stay together because you're not hanging on those like very superficial, fleeting parts of human, our human life. But there's a deeper connection. And I remember when I met you, Rob, I felt like. It was hard to describe, but I felt you were like a solidness. Like I felt like the solid in me was connected to the solid in you. Like it was just this kind of ineffable connection that's much different than the flurffy. Like I felt that too, but it was like tethered to the soul, you know, the soulfulness. And, and so we all want something like that. We all want something that like we all want that love that lasts forever. It's like the love that lasts forever is inside of us. We have to find it in ourselves first. No one can give that to us. And you know another thing too, that I think happens with breakups? It's. It's all the things that we stuffed in our life, even losses. The things, the emotions and fears that we had that we clung onto relationship for kind of like. Like the. The mask gets taken off and then we have to deal with all the stuff that we suppressed. Jung would call that the shadow. And so we have to deal with those things. But like Inanna in this metaphor, she went into the underworld and became complete. And so it's about reclaiming and almost like distilling those fears that are really real and seeing them in a new perspective so they're not driving us anymore. Imagine staying in a relationship because you're so afraid of being alone and being miserable, but you just don't want to be alone so bad. And that's like a prison. That's not freedom. It's not love either.
- [16:47]
C
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of challenges in relationships, especially nowadays with all the kind of social stresses. But one of the things that we keep running into is because we're. We're in the personal development industry or tradition, we see people that want to do their inner transformation and they're in a relationship sometimes. More and more we're starting to see couples doing it together, which is the ideal. Because when one person does their inner work and the other one doesn't, we know there's going to be trouble because that person begins to change. That's doing the inner transformation, the inner work, and the other one is resisting change. They want the old person to remain the same, the. The familiar one. And that's when people start to question, is this the right relationship for me or not?
- [17:42]
B
And. And it's okay if that happens, you know, because it's, you know, it may be uncomfortable, but it may be the thing that you needed in the time it feels like. I remember when I broke up at 36, I was like, no, I just want to get married. You know, I just want to, you know, just go on with this. Like, I was like, forcing myself to. To fit into that, like, social role. And. But a part of me knew already. And so, yeah, just knowing that.
- [18:08]
C
Was it that you were changing or that he was.
- [18:11]
B
Yeah, I was doing my own work and he was not. And I was growing and getting coaching and going to workshops and, you know, exploring my spirituality, and he wasn't. He was going to like more the corporate, Corporate and yeah, so that was the key, you know, it was like, okay, it was, it wasn't meant to last. You know, it was like the things that pulled us together were very superficial. And then it's like we needed to find our way. And, you know, even when relationships end, love doesn't go away. Like, love has always been in you. So no one can take love away from you and no one can give you love. And the love is in you. And so you bring it everywhere you go. So, like, nothing can ever be lost. I think the thing that would happen is things get revealed and you evolve. I think that one of the main things is that looking at those of you who are going through a breakup or have gone through a breakup, think about, like, which identity are you really attached to? Is it the parent? Is it the partner? Is it a provider? Is it the lover? Is it the friend, maybe the comforter or the companion? Like, what identity are you, like, feeling you lost? And then, you know, what role do you want to really express in life and can it be expressed in another way and without just this person?
- [19:28]
C
Yeah. So much of it is timing. Like, sometimes everything is there, but the timing is not perfect.
- [19:35]
B
We always say midlife is at 35. And that I feel like that's when my life, everything started to change. And I, you know, had the dark night of the soul. And my friend said to me, I'm really surprised at how you went through this, all this change, and you were so calm through it all. And I, I said, because on some level I felt like I knew I was on the wrong track and I knew there was something more, but I don't know what that more is yet. But I know I'm being led in another direction because I had been doing my work and I had been questioning things, and sometimes people don't have that. They're blindsided and they're like going, whoa, what happened? And I've had so many clients over the years who are blindsided by a breakup or a divorce. And it turned out to be eventually the best thing that ever happened to them. My sister, when she broke up with her 20 year relationship, I said, I want you to stop using his name and I want you to call him Favor, like he did you a favor, you know, because it was not working. And now she has a wonderful husband. She's been married for, I think, 20 years now, another 20 years, and she's just so happy and he's so good to her. And it's like, we don't know. We think we Settle for just enough or, okay, we're tolerating. And when we can have a magnificent relationship. And so it's not fairy tales. It's possible. And the only way we can get it is if we do the individuation work, we really get to know who we are. Because that's. If we see ourselves as extraordinary. We wouldn't settle for anything less than that in a relationship.
- [21:00]
C
Yes, Many people resist that idea of I have to work on myself to find the right match for. For me. But that's the only way we can really do it. We're not just our social Personas. In other words, we're, you know, a list of qualities. Right. That we tick off. All the right things. The. The list of things. Right. That people are looking for. It's a soul connection. It's a. It's a connection of the heart. That's. That. That's why people talk about this kind of divine element that comes into a marriage. You see it in the vows that what is joined by God or what's it. What's joined in heaven cannot be undone on earth. That kind of language, because it's talking about something that is not just the superficial aspect of ourselves. The mass, the Persona and the. The saving grace for us is that it's never too late. Like we were saying, if you want to create a relationship for yourself, you have to do the inner work, Find what is the meaning of my life? What is the purpose. It doesn't have to be something grand or something spectacular, just that you. You realize it and you live from that. That that's who you are, and you're comfortable with that, then it matches you up, right? The universe kind of puts you together with who you belong with.
- [22:26]
B
Because it's like the Persona. If you match on the Persona level, it can never last unless. Or it could last, but it just. You would be going through the motions. Because we evolved so much from the time we're in our 20s. And then a lot of my clients that were single would ask, what. How do. How do I know they're the one? Or that this. This relationship will last? And I said, if they're willing to do their own inner work, I said, that's a good indication that if they're willing to do the inner work with you together, that they're. That's probably a good indication that the relationship will last. Don't look at just the titles and the people that look good on paper. Because over the years, I've seen so many of my clients who wanted a Divorce. Because like, oh my God, he looked. He's perfect on paper. But I'm. There's no passion in the marriage. It's not what I like, thrills me. There's nothing there. And I did it because my family thought they'd be a good match for me. So, yeah, it's. It's interesting how we, you know, even on online dating, it's all about the face. You know, swipe left, swipe right. You know, do I look? Am I attracted to this person right away? Versus who is this person? You know, what's deep within them? How do they, how do we connect? So lots on love we could talk about forever. But remember that, you know, it's not just. It's not a loss of love, it's the beginning of individuation. And I feel like it was the greatest gift in my life. It wasn't easy, it was tough to go through, but it would have been more a struggle if I didn't have the resources and the tools I got from my individuation and my own self reflection and work I did on myself and getting people to help me and coach me through it. Not doing it alone has always been a great gift for me. And I ended up with a pretty good guy in the end. Pretty good.
- [24:06]
C
Pretty good. And the other, did you end up.
- [24:08]
B
With a good lady?
- [24:09]
C
Oh, absolutely. But the other challenge is that people are continuously growing and changing. So yes, when you meet and you get together, you are somebody and you know, the, the other person is their own person. But you have to remember they're going to grow and you want them to grow.
- [24:29]
B
Yeah.
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C
And that's the key, Right, That I think Rilke, the poet said something like that. That you have to be each other's keeper of that space that allows them to grow. Right. Like, it's almost like that's part of your job, that you make sure they have the space to grow and that you give them that space to grow themselves. Because relationships are really meant. It's like our natural personal development session.
- [24:58]
B
No, it's like the greatest opportunity.
- [25:00]
C
It forces us to put everything on the table if we really want genuine love and connectedness. You have to. If you don't do it, then there's no connection. Right. Or it's superficial.
- [25:11]
B
And when you talk about inner work, I just want to clarify that we're not talking about spending decades in therapy or thinking you're broken in any way. It's more the curiosity of who you are, you know, going inward into the shadow work. We don't see shadow work as like fixing anything. We see it as just reclaiming parts of ourselves, misunderstandings and, and allowing a greater version, not a Persona, but like the self in us to really be expressed instead of the ego self, that conditioned self. So you don't have to do a lot of healing to make it work. You could. It's more about becoming and remembering who you already are. So there's nothing broken about you. So don't feel like you have to like I gotta work on myself and you know, and feel like once I work on myself, then I can find love. It's like it's a cons. It should be a part of your life. It should be to always self improve self, reflect, grow spiritually. All that should be part of your life. Not something you do to get something.
- [26:09]
C
Yeah, because most of us get our hearts broken early on and then we say, I'm never going to let that happen again. And there's nothing wrong with that. Right. Because we, we want to protect ourselves. But if we want to connect to somebody at the spiritual soul level, we're going to have to risk that heartbreak again. And a lot of people have their guard up so powerfully that they don't allow anybody else in.
- [26:39]
B
We used to tell our clients that. That you have to be willing to face. Get your heart broken to find love. You have to be. Not that you should expect to get your heart broken, but you have to be willing to know that that's a chance and that's the only way you can re. Or else you're going to choose someone who's safe and boring and that, you know, you. They won't break your heart. You know, they'll just be easy or just stay alone. It's that daringness. Just like a warrior enters the battle not knowing if he's going to live, you know, but he enters the battle because he, he's a warrior and he, he's. He's willing to take that risk for something greater.
- [27:13]
C
Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that being alone, because if it's a real choice, there's nothing wrong with that. People choose to be alone. That's great. But you want to be sure that it is a choice. That you're not doing it out of fear of getting your heart broken or a fear of putting yourself out there or a fear of really losing yourself in the relationship of those kind of fears that it's a real choice that you're making.
- [27:41]
B
It's not codependency. It's not, uh. I, I mean, just, just like be someone who's really attached to being in a relationship is just as, just as the same equivalent to being attached to being single or attached to being alone, you know, is like at a defensiveness. It's the same thing. It's just showing up in two different forms. So anyway, well, next week we're going to talk about relationships when it comes to long term relationships and what happens there and, and how, what it takes to build a long term lasting love through purpose. Like, how does purpose show up? Do you have to work together? Do you, you know, does it have to do like Rob and I work together? Is that what we're talking about? No, we'll talk about like just kind of how do you express your purpose and still be and unique in a relationship and have your independence and your autonomy, but also have that connection at the same time? All right, so think about those. The question of what role did you lose in the relationship if you just lost one and, and why you're clinging to it. And we'll go see you next week.
- [28:40]
C
Thanks for tuning in. See you next time.
- [28:42]
B
Bye Bye.
- [28:44]
A
Thank you for joining us for Jung on Purpose with Deborah Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado of Creative Mind. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast before you leave and join us each week.
- [28:55]
B
We'll see you soon. Sam.