Navigating Anxiety - Jungian Insights in a Chaotic World

Summary

Jung On Purpose Podcast: Navigating Anxiety - Jungian Insights in a Chaotic World

Hosted by Debra Maldonado & Robert Maldonado, PhD (CreativeMind)
Episode Date: January 19, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Debra and Dr. Rob Maldonado address the pervasive issue of anxiety in a world that feels increasingly chaotic. Drawing from Jungian psychology, neuroscience, and Eastern spirituality, they explore why anxiety is on the rise, how modern life intensifies it, and what practical and spiritual tools we can use to navigate and transform our experience—both personally and collectively.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Modern Anxiety Epidemic

• The hosts frame anxiety as an adaptive response gone awry in our hyper-connected, information-overloaded culture.
• Anxiety is rampant, with 1 in 5 American adults affected—a trend mirrored globally. (02:47)
• “We have to address this question… it is basically human suffering on a large scale and it’s preventable.” – Robert [02:47]
• The news and social media amplify anxiety by keeping us in a state of constant alertness.

Notable Quote:
“You could literally wake up in a good mood and just go online and immediately start worrying about everything.” – Debra [03:46]

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2. Sources and Triggers of Anxiety

• The shift from limited, daily news consumption to 24/7 digital media exposes us to a relentless flood of distressing information. (03:46–05:41)
• Social media algorithms are designed to provoke fear and keep users engaged (05:41).
• Anxiety is further intensified by social comparison and exposure to others’ suffering or outrage on social platforms.

Notable Quote:
“When we see other people suffering, we connect to it in some way. We feel the suffering of others.” – Debra [11:10]

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3. Understanding Anxiety: Symptom, Not Enemy

• Anxiety is reframed as a necessary human defense mechanism, not a pathology. (07:13)
• It's the body's natural alert system: increased heart rate, hormones, and overthinking are evolutionary tools for survival.
• The main problem in modern life is that instead of rare threats, we're stuck in a "revved up" state all the time. (12:52)

Notable Quote:
“We don’t want to get rid of anxiety—we need it, it’s useful… these mechanisms, we want to see them for what they are.” – Robert [07:13]

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4. Fear vs. Anxiety

• Fear = Immediate, present-moment physiological response to clear danger (e.g., a truck approaching).
• Anxiety = Anticipatory or memory-based, a “fear loop” that persists with or without a clear trigger. (13:47–16:29)

Notable Exchange:
“Would anxiety be like a fear stuck in a loop?...more of an imagined danger?” – Debra [14:29]
“Yeah…now it becomes that reoccurring firing of the same neurons…which is not necessarily true.” – Robert [14:37]

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5. Physiology and Neuroscience of Anxiety

• The amygdala is the brain’s fear center; repeated activation strengthens its neural circuits (18:15–21:27).
• Extended anxiety suppresses rational cognition and executive function, leading to increased reactivity and impulsiveness online and offline (21:27).
• Trauma patterns and early childhood experiences amplify anxious responses.

Notable Quote:
“When incidents are so shocking…they leave a powerful imprint that goes beyond the nervous system and goes into our psychology.” – Robert [22:50]

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6. The Ego and Predictability

• Our ego craves predictability for security, but also novelty for growth—creating a tension at the heart of the human experience (25:20–26:36).
• Collective anxiety can be seen as the ego's attempt to regain lost control and continuity when confronted with societal or global disruption (23:38).

Notable Quote:
“Chaos precedes the transformation because there needs to be a disruption in the status quo for us to change.” – Debra [26:36]

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7. Jungian, Eastern, and Neuroscience Approaches to Managing Anxiety

Individual Strategies

• Nervous System Regulation:

  • Engage the parasympathetic (“rest and digest”) system with breathing, meditation, and mindful movement (28:11–29:16).
  • Exercise is as effective as psychotherapy for anxiety (05:41).

  “Get them [kids] involved in physical exercise and you’ll help them reduce [anxiety].” – Robert [05:41]

• Metacognition and the Witness Mind:

  • Practice becoming the “witness” of your thoughts and feelings rather than identifying with them.
  • This meta-awareness, rooted both in Eastern meditation and Western psychology, neutralizes the anxiety loop. (34:36–38:41)

  Memorable Analogy:
  “Our mind is like a rushing river… you could either be in the water trying not to drown, or you can sit on the bank and watch the river going—all the emotions, all the thoughts.” – Debra [37:27]

Collective and Social Dimensions

• Emotions are contagious—leaders and algorithms amplify collective anxiety (30:31).
• Mob mentality is rooted in the same nervous system responses as individual anxiety—thus, calm and emotional discipline have outsized ripple effects.
• “Calm and compassion and love are so much more powerful. If you refuse to buy into the fear, you are actually more powerful.” – Debra [32:34]

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8. Non-Dual & Spiritual Insights

• Non-dual philosophy (the witness or “wisdom mind”) provides a spiritual anchor, allowing us to observe but not be engulfed by anxiety. (34:36–36:11)
• Judgment is to be replaced with neutral observation: “bringing light into a dark room.”
• “With the wisdom mind, if you practice it before you have the panic attack, you might be able to do it because you’re observing yourself experiencing anxiety.” – Robert [36:37]

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9. Activism, Compassion, and Creative Response

• Avoidance is not a solution—shutting out the world may reduce triggers, but also reduces potential for meaningful engagement and growth (42:57).
• Effective change comes from compassion and creative responses, not from fear-driven opposition. (45:02–47:55)
• The example of Buddhist monks engaging in peaceful, non-violent activism demonstrates the power of presence and compassion in the face of collective anxiety and aggression.

Notable Quote:
“How would I respond if I had no fear? Fear response is defensive, protective, and clouded. But if you’re in the calm, you really know.” – Debra [47:55]

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10. Practical Guidance for Anxiety Today

Key Tactics:

• Limit news/social media exposure
• Move your body; cultivate exercise habits
• Practice breathing, meditation, and progressive relaxation
• Teach children about self-regulation early
• Use self-inquiry: “What am I trying to control?” and “Where am I going?” (50:47)
• Bring witness awareness to your emotions
• Hold a vision for transformation—both personal and collective

Final Reflection:
“The world has always been uncertain…what’s new is that we can re-know that uncertainty is part of being in this world, and we have to be at peace with that.” – Debra [50:50]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• “You could literally wake up in a good mood and just go online and immediately start worrying about everything.” – Debra [03:46]
• “Anxiety is not the problem. Anxiety is the symptom. It’s an alert reaction…We don’t want to get rid of anxiety. We need it.” – Robert [07:13]
• “Would anxiety be like a fear stuck in a loop? …where there’s not an immediate or more of an imagined danger?” – Debra [14:29]
• “Chaos precedes the transformation, because there needs to be a disruption in the status quo for us to change.” – Debra [26:36]
• “We transmit emotions from one person to the next… Leaders of societies, groups, have a big impact on the crowd.” – Robert [29:16]
• “If you refuse to buy into the fear, you are actually more powerful.” – Debra [32:34]
• “Practice becoming the witness of your thoughts…immediately you’ll feel calm by doing that.” – Debra [34:36]
• “Our mind is like a rushing river… you could either be in the water trying not to drown, or you can sit on the bank and watch the river going.” – Debra [37:27]
• “How would I respond if I had no fear?” – Debra [47:55]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Topic | |------------|--------------------------------------------| | 00:04 | Show intro & context | | 02:47 | The prevalence of anxiety | | 03:46 | Digital overload as a trigger | | 05:41 | The power of exercise and regulation | | 07:13 | Anxiety as an adaptive response | | 13:47 | Fear vs. anxiety explained | | 18:15 | Neuroscience—role of the amygdala | | 21:27 | How anxiety impairs cognition | | 25:20 | Human need for both predictability/novelty | | 26:36 | Jungian transformation & chaos | | 28:11 | Calming the nervous system | | 34:36 | Non-dual & witness mind | | 37:27 | River analogy | | 42:57 | Avoidance vs. engagement | | 45:02 | Social action rooted in compassion | | 50:47 | Self-inquiry practices | | 52:14 | Closing reflections |

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Conclusion

The episode reframes anxiety as not just a personal shortcoming, but a reflection of our collective state in a rapidly changing, information-saturated environment. The Jungian, neuroscientific, and spiritual perspectives converge on one message: While we cannot control the chaos of the world, we can transform our relationship with it—finding purpose, compassion, and creativity in the face of uncertainty. By cultivating self-awareness, mindful regulation, and a commitment to acting from love rather than fear, we become not only more resilient individuals, but agents of healing in the collective.

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Be the light in the darkness. Shine it in your own life, and it will ripple out to others. – Debra [52:14]

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Jung on purpose with CreativeMind hosted by Deborah and Dr. Rob Maldonado, creators of the NeuroMindra coaching method based on Jungian psychology, non dual spirituality and social neuroscience. Join us each week as we explore personal growth for purpose seekers and the incredible inner journey of becoming your true self. Let's get started. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Yong on Purpose. I am Deborah Maldonada.

[B]

And I'm Dr. Rob. Welcome to the program.

[A]

Yes, and we have a timely episode. We've been receiving these questions from our students and our clients and people online. You know, the world is in a little chaotic place. If you're in the U.S. it's very chaotic and there's a lot going on and I know many people in the personal development kind of space are receiving, you know, working on themselves or teaching, teaching it. We're all want to make the world a better place. I mean that's why we get into this. We want to be a better person. So sometimes we're challenged by, you know, current events and things that are happening and humanity in general. And, and so how do we, how do we deal with that? How do we come to terms, how do we handle this in a Jungian neuroscience and Eastern philosophy way?

[B]

That's the big question, right?

[A]

Yeah. And before we begin, I do wanna remind you to subscribe to us on our podcast. Any podcast services. We'd love to see you come back every week. And if you're watching us on YouTube, there's a little button in the corner. You can click to subscribe to our channel and also see all of our videos there as well. So, so what is, what is really happening in the mind, in the body? We have to look at all those areas.

[B]

Yeah, just kind of a prologue to our conversation. This, this knowledge that we're talking about is not meant to replace any treatment. If you need mental health treatment, obviously consult with a professional or your physician. This is primarily for educational purposes and it's primarily our ideas. So we train young and life coaches. So that's our perspective.

[A]

That's a good point. And we're not talking about debilitating anxiety. We're really talking about that kind of you open up yourself socials or you hear, see the news and you're just kind of have that angst and you don't know where to put it because you're on a spiritual path or a personal development path and you're like, I want, I'm improving my life. Like how did, how does my little world fit into the big picture and how Could I affect change in the world? Right. Like, what can I do?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And there is a mental health crisis right now. I think people have heard this on the news, which just means one out of every five adults in the US is experiencing some kind of anxiety or depression. Wow, that's a. Yeah, that's almost like 60 million people. And worldwide it's not much better. The stats are similar worldwide. So we have to address this question. Right. Or this problem because it's, it is basically human suffering on a large scale and it's, it's preventable. Not that we're going to get rid of all human problems, but there are ways to manage our minds and our nervous system so that we don't have to be triggered by the external environment continuously. Right. Because essentially, well, we can talk about it, but that's, that's one of the factors that's playing into this level of anxiety. And our.

[A]

I remember like 20, 30 years ago, back in the day, the dinosaurs, we only had the evening news and it was an hour a day. And we were. Would watch it, maybe watch it if we were in our twenties. I so didn't pay attention that much. You hear random stuff if you're not really into the news or politics and you just, you go on in your life. But now it's like very invasive. Like everything is very invasive with all the social media, 247 news and, and then independent news and all these podcasters. I mean, there's just so much. And you could literally wake up in a good mood and just go online and immediately start worrying about everything and things that we didn't wor. Like 40 years ago, we didn't have video of like another country and what's happening over there and to the poor people. So we have a lot of access consciously to things that we didn't have access to before. And not that we should shut our mind away and not look at problems in the world, but it's in our, it's all around all the time. And I think too another contribution to this is the algorithms are designed and even the media is designed to keep us tuning in. So they're going to keep that anxiety. They're going to hook you in with fear. And so it's psychologically designed, designed to increase anxiety, not release it. So, you know, a very simple thing is to limit your time. But it's so hard. You know, we have an online business, we're online all the time and it's. Sometimes it's unavoidable. And so how do we this is contributing to, I think, the mental health crisis and young kids. I remember being in school, not having to think about what my profile was on Facebook. You know, even in my early 20s, I didn't have. People weren't videotaping me, you know, clubbing, you know, I didn't have to worry about any of that. And now, thank God. But now it's. Everything's on video, everything's public, and, and it's just, it's just a lot. It's a lot for the young people. It's a lot for people, you know, that are just trying to get through their day.

[B]

Yeah. I. Recently there was some interesting research around mental health issues and exercise. I think they were comparing depression medication versus psychotherapy versus exercise. And they found that exercise works just as well as psychotherapy, which is good news. Right. Especially for parents that have kids that are on the, on screens a lot of the day. Get them involved in some kind of physical exercise and you'll help them reduce. And for yourself, for parents or individuals experiencing anxiety, work in a routine of physical training. It works really well.

[A]

Well, you're bringing that up with kids too. We have to watch. If you do have kids, even if you're. They're not paying attention to what you are, but you're having conversations with your spouse about what's going on or on the phone, they're hearing all that. And if, even if you don't even do it in front of them, if you're anxious, they feel it and they don't know what it is about, and then they, they're learning how to be anxious. So the best thing you can do for all of us is to find ways to deal with it. And, and it doesn't. I mean, exercise is great. We have some other great tips for you as well.

[B]

Yeah. So anxiety, we're focusing on anxiety to make it at least an informative conversation. And it is very common. It's probably the number one diagnosis in the country as far as it's why.

[A]

Most people go to the hospital. Right. Emergency room visits or anxiety.

[B]

Yeah. Because panic attacks, which is an extreme form of anxiety, feels like you're having a heart attack or you're, you can't breathe, then you're going to die. Something like that. Anyway. So first of all, let's reframe anxiety, because anxiety is not the problem. Anxiety is a, the symptom. Yeah, it's an. Well, it's an alert reaction. In other words, it's a natural defense mechanism that we have. So we don't want to pathologize it. In other words, we don't want to get rid of anxiety. We need it. It's useful to us. It tells us when we need to take action. And it. The symptoms. Right. Or what we call the symptoms, which means increased heart rate, increased blood pressure.

[A]

Overthinking.

[B]

Yeah. Increased kind of hormones that prompt action. They're all necessary for our survival. It's the fight or flight mode. So if we didn't have that, we wouldn't be here. We would have been eaten up by lions a long time ago. So the. These mechanisms, we want to see them for what they are. They're natural sensors, natural helpers in our system that tell us when we need to pay attention, when we need to flee a scene, when we need to fight, when we need to freeze. Those kind of.

[A]

So it's like a protective mode that.

[B]

We'Re in very much.

[A]

And it's a perceived loss of control when we're anxious. We. We. We feel like something's out of control. And it, it's very unsettling feeling.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Because we think of what the warning is telling you that you're in danger.

[A]

You're in danger.

[B]

You're in danger. Girl, you better run or fight or, or do something or freeze.

[A]

Pretend you're dead.

[B]

Right. The problem is that in modern society we're not facing lions and tigers anymore. We're facing traffic, we're facing I'm late for work. We're facing I'm overwhelmed by too many projects and I don't have time to meet all these expectations or losing a job.

[A]

I'm fear they're going to have layoffs or you've been layoff. Or I can't find love. I want to meet a partner or I don't know if my husband's going to leave me or my wife is going to leave me. And you know, the relationship isn't the same as it used to be. But also like just in general, like just in the world right now, there's a lot of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you know, unsettled stuff happening. Like a lot of stirring up of the norms. And that causes a lot. Not to say that being in the norm is good either, you know, but so that there's a lot of stirring up that, that the body.

[B]

The.

[A]

We're psycho. We're emotionally, physically going, wait a minute, I'm not grounded. This is. Doesn't feel grounded. And we could probably. It's hard for us to put words to it. Right. That's the physical, physiological part is that we're just feeling the feelings and not the understanding. Or we make it about those things, but we're. It's not really about those things.

[B]

Yeah. And so in modern context, we can reduce the anxiety by limiting the sources of information that we're accessing. Because think of what is happening. These news, these new stories are coming in from all over the world and they're being delivered to our mind in a fraction of an hour or less. Right. However time we spend scrolling, we're absorbing all this information of difficult, chaotic perhaps, and concerning incidents from. But they're from all over the world. In other words, in our current environment, we're not in an emergency state. But because we are perceiving all of these elements going on in different parts of the world, then it feels like we're in a chaotic state.

[A]

Can I ask you a question about mirror neurons? And I don't know if this is the right way to think about it from a neurological standpoint that when we see other people suffering, we kind of connect to it in some way. Like we, we feel the suffering of others. Or if someone's raging online and you know, has, like, you know, I hate when this is happening. And we kind of. It, it's. It stirs up that as well. Like, is. Is that what happens neurologically?

[B]

That's part of it, Absolutely. That when we see video. Right. Video is very powerful. It changes people's minds when they see videos. Because what it is, is a facsimile of reality. And so we're seeing the faces of people suffering and we identify with that without suffering.

[A]

We identify with the person that's suffering and then the person also that's having compassion for the suffering. And then maybe the rage of someone who doesn't want that to happen, you know, wants to protect. And so all these, like, parts of ourself are being projected in that situation. And it feels like a loss of control because one person can't change the world. I mean, I love it. Like, we can all go to our happy place and meditate and hope the world. Maybe when we reach alignment, we can go there. But it's like that feeling of, you know, I. I can't. It's like powerlessness to, to the, to the. The world. And I think. And it's not new, it's just new that it's so. There's so much, so much access to it now. Yeah. The information. But we've been dealing with this for hundreds, thousands of years. I mean, people have been pillaging and taking over lands and the Roman Empire. And even back in the cave days, you know, we were fighting other tribes and so there's always that part of humanity.

[B]

Well, well, the, the system was designed for this. A lot of long periods of stability where you're essentially bored. Right. There's not much happening, but you're safe and you don't need that alert system going off and then a short period of run for it. Right. There's a danger, you need to take action immediately and then go back to relax, relaxation mode. Right. That's the way the system was designed to operate now. Constant stimulation, constant stress, constant alertness, it wears out the system. So that's the problem with anxiety in the modern world is that it's overwhelming the capacity of the system to keep that kind of revved up state of readiness. When nothing's happening, you're safe, except your mind is creating a state of alertness of anxiety.

[A]

How would you define the difference between fear and anxiety? Is it the same thing or are they. It's just semantics.

[B]

I think they overlap. But let's say fear is a natural, another natural response that is meant to warn you physical danger immediately. Right. Like fear just gives you that instant shot of adrenaline for you to be able to get out of the way. Like if a truck is coming to hit you or you're, you're reaching for something, there's a big spider there, you pull your hand out automatically, you don't have to think about it. So fear is a really useful response that kind of sets it up to, for us to survive. Excuse me.

[A]

So would anxiety be like a fear stuck in a loop? Like a fear loop. Like where there's not an immediate or more of an imagined danger?

[B]

Yeah. And so what happens?

[A]

So you're not present with the, with the anxiety. It's like you're fretting the past or fretting the future.

[B]

Yes. What happens is we have memory and we use memory to learn. So that if I put my hand somewhere and a spider is there, my brain learns that those conditions are dangerous. So next time you're going to do that, you have to be careful. So it's a good system. Right. It's teaching me that I need to be careful in certain circumstances where there might be spiders, but now it becomes that reoccurring of firing of the, the same neurons over and over. And now I develop a phobia of certain conditions because now I'm afraid there's always going to be a spider in those circumstances, which is not necessarily true. So you see where these natural defense mechanisms they're, they're meant to protect us, but when we don't know how to work with them, they get stuck and we get, it sticks us or it, it kind of forces us to act in irrational ways. So irrational fears is the definition of a phobia. Once you develop an irrational fear, which means there's not going to be a spider in every situation where you can't see clearly, but you're going to act as if that's a, that's irrational right there.

[A]

And then anxiety is there. You're kind of in fear. Like it's not a circumstantial like present moment. Senses are telling us it's more of the anxieties we're tapping into memory and our past experience and afraid of. And it could be the past experience of being calm. You said like at times of peace. And then you're in chaos and you're learning you want to get back there and you don't like this chaotic place.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So fear is not caused by chaos itself, but the mind's attempt to control what it cannot control. So we have this like mind that's thinking. If I can think my way and obsess about it, then I can control it. Like, it gives us like this idea that if I can figure it out or if I think about it a lot, you know, then I'm doing like, almost like it's an illusion that you're doing something and it's like you feel like you're protecting yourself by worrying about it. Would you say?

[B]

Yeah, it's a good framework to, to think about it that way because there is something to that. Let's say our brains are really designed to predict the environment. In other words, to be able to predict what's going to happen in our environment is what we call intelligence, which means survival. So if you're able to predict what's going to happen in an environment, you know, whether you can stick around and relax or you need to run and get the hell out of there.

[A]

And like if you're walking down a dark alley and you hear those click, click steps and you're by yourself, you're going to feel anxiety, but it's a warning. Like there's someone behind you. You don't know who this person is. You may not be safe versus oh, there's someone walking behind and the person you know mugs you or something. So it's a good protective mechanism. And so if that is, it's okay. But if you're always like paranoid about every time you walk out on the street then, and have anxiety about being in public or all those things. That's, that's another story. And then physiologically, let's talk about that because I think like you said, it's the number one reason why people go to emergency. It creates health issues. What is happening in the brain when we're in constant anxiety? What is going on?

[B]

So this, in the body, this is the simplified version of the, the neuroscience of fear. There's a fear center, it's called the amygdala. And the, the amygdala just responds to those fear situations of the spider or the stranger or the sudden movement. Whatever it is, it responds. In other words, there's a signal sent to the amygdala to activate, right? To, to do its work. And it releases all this, this, this pattern of fear that you need in your body, right?

[A]

To like the adrenaline and the cortisol to give you the energy to run from the beast or fight the beast.

[B]

Or it dilates the pupils so you're able to take in everything, right? That's why people's eyes get big when they're in fear because they need to absorb all the information of the situation in order to survive.

[A]

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[B]

So again, these are adaptive features. But what happens when, when you experience fear, a fear situation, and you feel you cannot control it, the, the amygdala actually grows over time. In other words, it, it becomes more powerful to where it's running your brain a lot stronger in stress mode, perhaps that you need to survive in your environment. And so now you're, you're hyper alert. People that experience wars, chaotic situations, often that hyper alertness stays with them for a while after the incident. Why? Because it, it's adaptive. It's going to help you survive. If that situation arises again, it only becomes a problem when they don't receive the proper help and, and then the mind is not able then to digest. So their system remains in that constant state of fear or hyper alertness because they haven't really processed the experience properly.

[A]

And in that state, the blood moves away from the brain and into the body because it needs the muscles. So our rational cognition, that executive functioning, you know, self critical mind just floods out. And that's why people get so reactive online. If they're having political arguments and all that, they're just kind of caught up and they're not even thinking straight. And so that, and then of course that's, you know, the, the keeps you hooked into Facebook and Twitter and X and all those places that you want to kind of be in that loop. But yeah, so your, your cognition, you don't have a chance to really look at what is really going on here. Like why am I so afraid? You're just reacting in that reactive mode and then you become very impulsive.

[B]

Yeah. So the physiology itself is again, it's, it's a really real benefit for us because it helps us survive and exist in dangerous places and get through it, hopefully. Right. Most of the time. But it hinders us because there's, there's no real instruction on how to use your mind and your brain and how to work with your nervous system besides kind of try to relax, you know, or try not to think about it. Right.

[A]

Go to get some, get a massage.

[B]

Exactly. Forget about it and move on. Those are, they're okay most of the time. But when incidents are so shocking to us or so dangerous to us, they leave a powerful imprint that goes beyond the nervous system and goes into what we call the psychology of our mind, which is our self concept, our trust of the world.

[A]

So now early family patterns, the family field.

[B]

Yeah, I trigger all those. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now I'm not dealing with just the, the neural physiological mechanisms, but I'm dealing now with my sense of self, my sense of security in the world. And that part has been shaken in a sense by the incident.

[A]

And so the ego, which we're talking about, that sense of I that's developed early in life that has understands our early life experience, created all these survival strategies, needs predictability and it needs, it needs that narrative continuity. So the chaos basically like pulls the rug under its feet and the ego panics and the ego's trying to get back or it's relating to maybe an earlier time where it had a similar situation, you know, where it might not have been extreme, as extreme as some of the stuff we see on the news, some of the real tragedies that are happening around the world. Uh, but we, we. It. We can relate to it because we've had a piece of that in our life in some way, like being feeling rejected or feeling alone or feeling without food at one point or worried about money or survival. And all those things being accepted and belonging. I mean, those things are really, really intense for people. And you see groups being isolated and pushed away and, and you. That. That's that sense of, I, I want to belong too. And it creates that, you know, the ego function of reminding you when you didn't belong or when you were ostracized from a group or judged for who you are and all those things. So, you know, and then we don't want to talk about, like, generational conditioning and of identity and race and culture and all that stuff. That's a lot. But we do get. We have to think about that when we're witnessing these things. We're not just watching as a witness. We're actually. Our psyche is very engaged in what we're seeing and trying to almost identify us in that situation. So it's learning from that situation. So we maybe know how to. How to protect ourselves. And that's where the anxiety comes from, watching that stuff.

[B]

Yeah, you bring up a lot of great ideas. So the first one.

[A]

I have some good ideas.

[B]

Yeah, the first one you mentioned is that we need predictability. So we're a strange creature, human beings. Yes. We crave predictability in our. In our minds, in order to develop in a kind of a secure way. Need that. Being able to predict what's going to happen in my daily routine, for example. But we also crave novelty. So what do we call that? Curiosity. Right. That the child has to explore. We have to play. We have to try to invent new things and by doing those things, get into a kind of danger that thrills us a little bit. We like the sense of, I'm doing something. Yeah, right. I'm doing something outside the things that my mom told me not to do or my dad told me not to do. It thrills us, and we use it as learning, as exploration, as growing our brains. All those situations prompt the brain to create new connections and new neural connections that didn't exist before. So at the same time, it's always a question of balance. We need predictability. And then we also need novelty and experience for. For us to grow.

[A]

And so we always say in our own internal. Like, we think about growing ourselves psychologically, letting Go of the ego, stepping into our true self. In Jung's terms, it would be individuation. We know that chaos precedes the transformation because there needs to be a disruption in the status quo for us to change. So, I mean, I think one of the things we can look at when we're looking at a world that's chaotic is to help us have a better understanding, understanding our own micro world and our little world of our transformation is that if we think of humanity as a collective, that sometimes when there's chaos, it's preceding a transformation. That's one of the things you can do, whether it's a personal challenge you're going through or national challenge or a world challenge, or, you know, something you're really passionate about, that it feels like social justice to, to know that sometimes the chaos precedes the, the breakthrough. And if you just focus on the chaos, it's going to kind of make you feel powerless. And if you can hold a vision, like if everyone in the world held a vision of a better world versus focused on the chaos all the time and fear, I think we would shift collectively. So it's trying to think of what, what can I do? One of the things you can do is work with your own fear of when things are out of control, all things of uncertainty. How do I, how can I be more flexible in my life when things don't go well in my personal life? And then when I see it on a macro scale, I can hold the space for the world to step into something else.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. So we, we are social animals. No doubt. Some of the best understanding that we have has come from observing apes, great apes, like chimps and gorillas and orangutans, because we're pretty close to them genetically, right? 98%, over 98% of our genes are similar. So we, we at the individual level, we want to work with our nervous system. So when we're anxious, it's like a seesaw. The sympathetic nervous system is that fight or flight response. We can consciously work with that through the parasympathetic nervous system, which is relaxation. So we know breathing, standing or becoming still, like meditation.

[A]

Even like you said, taking a walk.

[B]

Sometimes is really taking a walk, counting.

[A]

Just clearing your head, walking on the treadmill if it's cold outside, you know, just kind of get. Turning off all the electronic devices and just being with yourself and being in the moment.

[B]

Yes. That activates the parasympathetic, which is the, the other end of the seesaw, which then creates the relaxation response. Instead of the fight or flight response, it's a relaxation response, meaning now we're in relaxation mode, everything reverses. We can relax, breathe, take time to ourselves and all that. Now those things can be learned, but they do require some learning, of course. And that, that's the key. Right. We need to teach from the, from the earliest kindergarten on, we need to start teaching this in our schools so that children understand. I have this amazing nervous system that responds to my commands if I know how to do it and I can work with it and I can manage myself. Right. Self regulate. That's what self regulation is at the, at the social level, the ones you're describing, we need to educate people that emotions are like viruses. We transmit them from one person to the next. And so that the leader, whoever's in, in charge, or the leaders of societies, groups, they have a big impact on the mob, or sorry, not the mob, but the, the crowd.

[A]

Well, it is the mob mentality.

[B]

Right, that, that's what Jung called it. Yeah, the herd mentality or the mob mentality.

[A]

Meaning that not the mob like Al Capone, just the mob of people. Yeah, the pitchforks and the, and the lamps burning. Burning.

[B]

All right, yes, the, the villagers. The villagers looking for the monster. Yeah. So in, in groups, the same activation of the nervous system that occurs at the individual level can occur at the group level where people en masse can react to situations with aggression, with anxiety, with fear. And if you have a leader that's.

[A]

Leading with fear and anxiety and pettiness, people are going to start mirroring that. Right. Unconsciously.

[B]

Yeah. Like you were saying with, with the Internet, these algorithms and the, the people behind the, the algorithms, which are often psychologists as well, they know how to hook people into, into trigger people and they stay on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And most of them are kids. Right. So you can imagine an army of psychologists against a kid. You know, they're going to know how to get them hooked on the Internet and how to keep them scrolling and all that. Many politicians understand these principles as well, and they use them because it's the lowest common denominator. To fear, to be angry, to be hateful. Unfortunately, that's our human nature. Right, because it, why those are primal emotions that helped us survive again, so we needed them, but now they're being used against us or they're, they're working against us. In modern society and modern systems and people are easily exploited this way. So the more you know about your system, about your, how your mind works and how your nervous system works, the more you can counteract that and not fall into those traps.

[A]

So I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that hate and fear has a lot of power, which it does. But I think that calm and compassion and love are so much more powerful. But overtly it feels as though the fear and aggression seem to be stronger. But if you refuse to buy into the fear, you are actually more powerful than someone who's trying to dispel fear. So it's that peace. And what I love about this thing that's happening with the Buddhists monks that are, you know, they're, they're going across or they're making that walk of peace. I think it's so beautiful. Like I started following them and I was like, it just brings me to so much peace every day. People are handing them flowers. They're, you know, all sorts of faiths, you know, they're seeing that there's bright lights in this world. And if we focus on that and we focus on nonviolence resistance, we don't buy into the fear. We are so much stronger than someone who's just fighting fear with fear. And two people fighting with fear, one person's calm and that could be, it could topple. Like, I mean, look at Gandhi, what he did. He, he toppled the empire of the British Empire with calmness and without fear and without attachment. And it's hard. We're human beings, we're not Gandhi. We're not going to sit and meditate 20 hours a day. You know, so we could. The best we can do is just remember when we're caught up, like you said, start with breath work or start with meditation or take a walk and just kind of be. Pay attention to what this thing is doing to my body. I also think there's, you know, we could do like a progressive relaxation where we take the head to toe and we just imagine a light going from the top of our head and just grounding ourselves in our body. Our energy, like feeling solid is really powerful. But I want to go into the third part, which is we talked about the neuroscience, the psychology, but the non dual philosophy. And I think one of the most important aspects to bring in, which helps me a lot with anxiety for anything is the witness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is to stop identifying with the part of you that's anxious and identify with the witness. And immediately you will feel calm by doing that, just by watching there.

[B]

There is a correlate in Western psychology to Eastern philosophy and that is metacognition. So metacognition is the ability of our brain to observe itself. Thinking. So it's us thinking about our thinking, which is kind of a closed loop.

[A]

Remember one of our clients? What is this? The thinking about our thinking. How is this work?

[B]

Yeah, so in Eastern philosophy, they've known this in practices for thousands of years, but it is meta awareness, or like you say, using the witness mind or the wisdoms mind, sometimes it's called to observe our own thoughts. Now, this is difficult because we're used to judging. If you notice, our brain is, let's say, in. In trying to decipher its environment. It's always making judgments of good and bad. Is this good for me or bad for me? So I can move away from that. In using the Witness Mind, we have to drop that. We cannot use judgment because it takes us back to ego, meaning to our limited, small self. The wisdom mind is simply observing. It's like bringing light into a dark room, simply bringing that light. The light is not forcing anything to be there or to be in a particular way. It's simply illuminating it so we can see.

[A]

It's illuminating. So we can see things clearly versus trying to stumble in the dark. Imagine being in a dark room with furniture and you can't see anything and you're trying to get around. We're stumbling in the dark. When we're in that anxiety, and then we have the light of the witness mind, we could see, oh, wait, there's the door. There's the door to freedom. We could. We could start to, like, navigate what. What is happening versus being caught up in the dark.

[B]

We've all been anxious. Maybe some of us have had panic attacks. When you're inside the panic attack, it's very difficult to make decisions because you're in a state of emergency. In other words, all the systems are turned up all the way up, and you can't think straight. You can't make those rational, calm decisions. With the wisdom mind, if you practice it before you have the panic attack, you might be able to do it because you're observing yourself experiencing anxiety. That's a very different construct than being caught in the anxiety. You're observing yourself. It's almost like dissociation, where we feel we're outside our body looking at ourselves or at our bodies. But here we're doing it in a conscious, controlled way.

[A]

It's not a conscious disassociation. Well, we're not disassociating from everything. We're disassociating from the. It's taking a step back so we could see things more clearly. When you're in the in the fear, it's like everything's very clouded. Someone told me once a long time ago that it's like a rushing river. Our mind is like, oh, in the rocks and, and you could either be in the water trying to, you know, not drown, or you can sit on the bank and watch the river going. All the emotions, all the thoughts and be at peace. The, the, it'll, the thoughts will still be there, but you don't have to jump in with them. And we tend to like, want to jump in, want to fix them. And then we're on the bank again. I'm like, oh, okay. I'm like at safety again. It's almost like that space. The witness is that space where we're not caught up in the illusion of the world and the, and the duality of the world. And we can step back and from a different perspective, a more spiritual perspective, which is there's good and bad in the world, but when we identify the I, it creates anxiety if we identify with those things. Or I am the one having anxiety, I am the one feeling this, I'm the one afraid, I'm the one who has this problem. Then you're, you're basically inside the box trying to get yourself out in the dark.

[B]

Yes. And so the spiritual level of observing our own mind, and in particular in relationship to anxiety, it's a very different way of experiencing anxiety then because now we're not caught up in it, we're able to observe it. In other words, we're not denying it or ignoring it or repressing it. We're saying anxiety is an actual powerful experience. And I'm observing it, I'm letting it arise and be in the mind, but I'm observing it from this wisdom mind without judgment. I'm not making it bad, I'm not trying to fix it. I'm not making myself wrong for experiencing it. I'm simply observing it. That approach is revolutionary. Therapy models are beginning to understand these principles and apply them as well, as well as in coaching. Now we can help people in a non clinical way. Right? We're not fixing, we're not saying you're broken and you need medication or there's something wrong with your brain. We're simply understanding it from a certain perspective that these are.

[A]

Don't you say that most people don't know what they, how to, They've never been taught how to work with their mind. So to say you're broken because you have anxiety, it's like you don't have the information to deal with it, no one's ever told you this is what's happening.

[B]

Yeah, there are different models, different ways of conceptualizing the mind. What the mind is doing, what the brain is doing, what the nervous system is doing. And that's an important part to begin with, that there are different ways of seeing our mind bodies. It doesn't mean we are discounting the scientific perspective. Of course it's there, of course it's useful. But it is a particular point of view that gives us a particular way of understanding the information. Same thing with this kind of consciousness model of non duality which you mentioned. The non dual perspective gives us a different perspective that then gives us different ways of approaching the mind. Instead of saying, well it's a chemical imbalance, we can measure that. And so these drugs might help you relax and get, or have a glass.

[A]

Of wine in the evening or two.

[B]

Or drink right, which is medicated, or.

[A]

Take some gummies, I feel better. I mean there's anything wrong with that. But if that's what you're doing only to treat your symptoms, then you're, it's almost like you're, you'll always be treating the symptom that way.

[B]

Yes. So with metacognition witness mind, then we can, we are able to observe our own anxiety and then guide it, guide the mind out of that anxiety from this higher vantage point, this higher perspective.

[A]

That is so like a creative, creative way to work with it versus a reactive way. Like how could I make, how can I have a creative act toward making this different or approaching this?

[B]

Exactly. Because if we look at anxiety in general, just like we did in the beginning, we see that it's useful to us. So right away we're not making it bad, we're not making it a disease or a disorder. We're, we're seeing it as. This is part of the natural mind. It's part of the mind, the nature of the mind to do this. Right. That's part of its work. So now that's a very different perspective that we're taking. And then we can, we can ask what are the lessons in me confronting or observing this particular anxiety or this, this panic attack or whatever it is? What are the lessons I can derive from that? Because we know organisms need pressure from the environment in order to fulfill their potential. In other words, the, so the environmental pressure activates a lot of the genes in our system in order to, it strengthens us to do the right job and the job that they're designed to do. So that pressure is not there. Often the Organism is not as vibrant and adaptive. It's not able to fulfill its full potential.

[A]

Now, I think some other people deal with anxiety by just shutting everything out. Like, I don't want to look at the news. I don't want to be. It's too much for me. And that's a choice. I mean, we. Some people don't want to be informed at all. And they want to be in their happy bubble and just kind of disconnect. But I think that, that also if we. We are able to hold that, like be able to see what's happening and want to make a change in the world without being fearful. Like, we can be activists in the world without fear, without anxiety. We actually be more effective if we want to be leaders and we want to help create change in the world. It's avoiding things or actually doing it with anxiety and fear. It's like you're using the same mechanism that's creating the chaos, so you're contributing to it. So how do we balance it out so that we can see what is on the other side of this chaos? How can we open up? Like, it's almost like a light that we're shining, like a beacon that we can shine for ourselves. And then collectively that it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be always so crazy and chaotic. It can be. There can be peace. There can be space for everyone to be accepted and everyone to feel loved and everyone to belong and not feel left behind. You know, and if you really look at what people are fighting about, that's everything's. It's all the same thing. It's just people think they're the ones, they're projecting onto the other. And it's like we're all. We're all wanting, most of us. I mean, they're still bad actors out there, lots of bad actors. But there are people that truly are just thinking they're in the right and they. They act out of fear. And the best thing we can do is hold the space for them to become something else or to have the wisdom. That's a really powerful meditation to have is to hold the beacon of light in the. In the mere darkness, as Jung would say. But we have to do it for ourselves first. We have to look at our own anxiety, what's happening on a micro level, so that we can effectuate change on a micro, macro level.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, if we look at our Buddhist friends again, they are taking action, but their action is not to fight anyone. In other words, not Action opposing anyone or any particular idea. It's simply putting forth an idea, a peacefulness.

[A]

And they're getting attacked. I mean, there's really, you know, very strict Christian people that are saying they're going to go to hell. And they approach. There's one guy that follows them around is like harassing them and they're coming up to them with peace. He wanted to hand the guy a flower and just be like, hey, I know you love God just like I do. We just have a different, you know, way the path there and I wish you the best. And he just acted with pure love versus fighting. And I think, you know, it might not change everyone, but it might change some people. Witnessing that is like, there has to be a better way to deal with our life. Like, and I think about it, if you look at the world and we hate the world and we're angry at the world, how much do we do that to our own lives? How much do we look at our lives and hate our situation or hate people in our life because they didn't live up to our expectations? And how much is that happening on a personal level? And it's not really like ruining the world or anything, but it's happening. And so how can we use those challenges with relationships in our own life to really hold the vision and grow collectively? So there's always the patterns, like in every dimension, like on the micro level, social level, family level, global level, maybe galactic level. Yeah, this could be happening all over the world. All over the universe.

[B]

Yeah. So the lesson that those Buddhist monks are teaching is something like this, that you should take social action to improve the world, but you do that action through compassion instead of opposing anyone, because that, that simply leads to hate. Right. If. When somebody pushes back, like that guy you mentioned that is protesting them, when somebody pushes them back, they're ready for it. Because I'm sure they understood that people are going to react in different ways.

[A]

They're going through the deep south, so especially.

[B]

Right. So they're ready for it. And they, they have mental, a mental discipline on how to deal with those situations. That's the key. So we want to do a lot of this work beforehand. We want to prepare the mind and have contingencies on how do I deal with that when, when somebody pushes back because they know that we're all human beings, our mind will react with aggression, to aggression. And so if I'm ready now, I can, instead of aggression, I can ask that question that you, you asked what's a more creative way of responding to this what's a more constructive, creative way of responding to opposition?

[A]

How would I respond if I had no fear? Right. Like fear response is defensive, protective and clouded. But if you're in the calm, it's like, you really know. It's almost like when these great warriors that went into battle, I mean, there's chaos, but the warrior had to hold, I mean, the leader or the sergeant or whatever had to hold the focus to. To fight the battle. And so it's the same thing, like, how do we master our mind so we can see that ripple effect. And I know that when you're in an environment of people that are holding that same, like, there's chaos now, but it's not going to last. And we're holding the light for a better world and we're not going to respond the same way. Just like in India, it was like a ripple effect. All these different religions got together and had a world day of. It was like a dedication to their religion, a world day of prayer. And it shut down the whole government, the whole city, every other country. And the powers that be were powerless to this, the masses. And so you don't have to fight wars or be mean. You could just find creative ways out of the situation. And Gandhi, how he came up with that idea. He sat in meditation. He sat in meditation and got the idea from deep within his wisdom. So, you know, I know every. A lot of people that watch, listen to us and watch us. They really care about the world. And so that would be a great meditation. How can I be a better instrument of peace in the world? How can I be a better instrument of change, positive change in the world, without feeling scared? And how would I be? Imagine if I could do that on a big level, like, your little problems in life will be small. Like, oh, I could find a partner now, and I could, you know, build a business and I could, you know, get a promotion, you know, solve world peace. So it's always interesting how we can apply everything we learn in all different levels to our own life and our own development, our growth. So to. The last part is really just we want to. In the witness mind, you're staying in the present moment. When you're in ego, you're always anticipating the future so you're not in the moment. So immediately you're in that anxiety phase. So try to stay present. It's such a simple thing to do. And then also ask yourself, what am I trying to control? I remember one time when you met me, Rob. We first met me and I was like, Busy, busy, busy, doing lots of stuff. And you go, where are you going? That's a great question. Like, there's always something else. And you're on that treadmill and we're all in that Western world of do, do, do, especially in the US like that productivity. And it's asking, where am I going? What am I trying to control? And you're just asking the question. You might not even get the answer. But just asking the question stops that anxiety. Because now you're going into this pause in the space of I don't know. And then that's really where the wisdom arises is questions that you don't really know the answer to.

[B]

I love that. Self inquiry.

[A]

Self inquiry, yeah. Very powerful. Well, I hope this has helped. You know, the world has always been uncertain. It's like we didn't start the fire, but what's new is that we can, we can re know that that uncertainty is part of being in this world and we have to be make peace with that. And we don't need to necessarily be in chaos. But uncertainty is always a part of this world, and the dark and light is part of this world. It just kind of, instead of fighting it, just like kind of be okay with that idea. And then how can I show up in a creative way to deal with this situation that we're in the world as human beings?

[B]

So it's, it's the only world we have for now.

[A]

Yeah. So. So we hope this helped today. If you're feeling that kind of lack of control or wanting to make a change, any urgency, angst. We feel, feel you. You know, we, we, we care about the world too. And just because we've been, you know, working on ourselves for a long time, it doesn't mean we've mastered it either. Maybe Rob more than me, but yeah, I think that it's a very timely topic and I hope that it helps you. And if you feel called, share this with someone who needs it, who feels really scared or uncertain. This might be a great thing for them to listen to and create that ripple effect of possibility and be the light. Be the light in the darkness and shine it on your own life, and it will create that powerful ripple to the collective.

[B]

Well said.

[A]

All right, have a great rest of your day. Have a great week. Be in the moment, and hopefully the chaos will be. The increased chaos will find a resolution soon and we can really see the gifts that come out of it.

[B]

See you soon.

[A]

All right, take care. Bye bye. Thank you for joining us for Jung on Purpose with Deborah Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado of Creative Mind Mind. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast before you leave and join us each week. We'll see you soon.