Shadow Work: What Jung Actually Meant (and what Pop Culture Gets Wrong)

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
Episode: Shadow Work: What Jung Actually Meant (and what Pop Culture Gets Wrong)
Hosts: Debra Maldonado and Robert Maldonado, PhD
Date: January 26, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Debra Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado delve into the concept of "shadow work" as conceived by Carl Jung, unraveling the common misconceptions that have proliferated as the idea has become popular in mainstream psychology and wellness culture. They clarify what shadow work truly entails, how it differentiates from other modalities like inner child work or simple emotional catharsis, and provide practical insights for those interested in engaging with Jungian shadow work from an authentic, transformative perspective.

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Key Themes and Discussion Points

The Popularization and Misconception of Shadow Work

• Shadow Work in Pop Culture
  • Shadow work is trending in media, but its definition often strays from Jung’s original concept ([00:38]).
  • Many equate shadow work with negative thoughts, inner child healing, or emotional catharsis, but these are simplifications or outright misconceptions.

Quote:

“We’ve seen so many people say, ‘Oh, I’ve done shadow work.’ And then they do our program and they’re like, ‘Oh, this isn’t the shadow work I did.’”
— Debra Maldonado ([01:38])

• Telephone Game Effect
  • When concepts become popular, their meaning gets distorted over time, leading to widespread confusion ([02:12]-[02:56]).
  • Dr. Rob likens it to the "telephone game" in which messages are altered as they’re passed along.

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Understanding the Persona and the Shadow

• The Persona (The Mask We Wear)
  • According to Jung, the Persona is our social mask — the acceptable role we play to fit in and function in society ([04:07]-[06:13]).
  • It’s necessary for social interaction but is not our authentic self.

Quote:

“He calls it like our psychological clothing that we can go out into the world and function and connect with others. We don’t tell everyone how we really feel in a way, because if we did, everyone would be fighting all the time.”
— Debra Maldonado ([06:13])

• What Is (and Isn’t) the Shadow?
  • Shadow is the unconscious aspect of our psyche, unknown to the conscious Persona/ego ([07:22]-[08:03]).
  • It is not insecurities or traits we are aware of.

Quote:

“By definition, the shadow is unconscious to us...So an insecurity is not a shadow. Like, if you know you’re insecure, you lack confidence, that’s not a shadow because you’re conscious of it.”
— Dr. Rob Maldonado ([07:22]-[08:03])

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The Confrontation with the Shadow

• The Crisis or “Calling”
  • Encountering the shadow typically coincides with midlife milestones or crises (often in one’s 30s), prompting profound self-questioning ([09:01]-[10:53]).
  • This process is likened to the “Hero’s Journey” — one must leave the comfort of the Persona and confront what lies beneath.

Quote:

“It’s like we get tired of pedaling and we sink. We’re invited to go into the unconscious...Jung had said that what’s in our shadow is more closer to our true self than our Persona.”
— Debra Maldonado ([10:53])

• Difficult and Transformative
  • True shadow work is not a weekend journaling exercise or just gaining insights; it is a profound confrontation that “brings you to your knees” ([13:25]-[14:20]).
  • It’s often accompanied by emotional upheaval and forces a conscious redefinition of self.

Quote:

“As Jung says in some of his interviews, ‘It’s a hell of a thing.’”
— Dr. Rob Maldonado ([14:14]-[14:20])

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The Nature and Contents of the Shadow

• What’s in the Shadow?
  • The shadow contains not just “negative” or unwanted aspects but also “golden” qualities — suppressed ambition, authority, creativity, or passion ([15:18]).
  • Suppressing such energies can lead to depression or chronic frustration.

Quote:

“Some of the things that are in the shadow are powerful — aggression, ambition, authority, even creativity. So it’s not all bad. It’s these functions...that we’re not using.”
— Debra Maldonado ([15:18])

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Resistance, Ego, and Why Shadow Work Is So Challenging

• The Ego’s Resistance
  • The ego’s job is to maintain the Persona; it deploys defense mechanisms to keep the shadow repressed ([21:18]-[26:14]).
  • The same mechanisms used to keep the shadow out will resist exposing it later.

Quote:

“The ego is a genius at distracting you and finding ways to get you back to your comfort zone...You’ll end up again in your Persona and your role… very limited and not really fulfilling the full transformation at your core.”
— Dr. Rob Maldonado ([29:37]-[31:14])

• Misconception: Acting Out Is Integration
  • Simply behaving in “shadowy” ways is not shadow work; it may be “possession” by the shadow, not integration ([28:09]-[29:09]).

Quote:

“When you’re doing that, the shadow is possessing you...It’s not really integrated. It’s just...Persona swapping.”
— Debra Maldonado ([29:09])

• Importance of Guidance
  • No one can fully see or integrate their shadow alone; a knowledgeable mentor or guide is essential due to the ego’s built-in blind spots, regardless of one’s experience ([31:14]-[32:30]).
  • Guidance is about holding space, not “doing something” to the client.

Quote:

“A guide is simply there to hold the space for you, to kind of check you. Almost like in weightlifting, where you have the spotter...They’re simply there to assist in your transformation, which is coming from within.”
— Dr. Rob Maldonado ([32:30])

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Shadow Work vs. Inner Child Healing

• Overlap but Not the Same
  • Inner child work often focuses on healing wounds from childhood; while parts of the “inner child” may be in the shadow, shadow work encompasses much more ([21:02]-[23:45]).
  • The shadow also contains lost creativity or golden aspects, not just wounds.
  • Obsessive focus on healing a wounded inner child can be disempowering, keeping one stuck in a loop of “I’m still broken.”

Quote:

“There’s parts of the inner child that’s in the shadow, but that’s not the entire shadow.”
— Debra Maldonado ([23:45])

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How (and Why) to Do Real Shadow Work

• Facing Patterns, Not Just Analyzing
  • The unconscious repeats patterns of behavior until we confront their root in the shadow ([34:21]).
  • If you can easily name or analyze it, it’s likely not your shadow — true shadow content is surprising and fundamentally changes your self-understanding ([34:21]-[36:05]).

Quote:

“If you can easily name it, analyze it, and affirm it, it’s not the shadow. It’s something that makes you feel — I could have never figured that out by myself.”
— Debra Maldonado ([34:21])

• Integration Brings Peace and Authenticity
  • After real shadow work, there is a sense of peace, inner strength, and groundedness that cannot be easily disturbed ([39:05]-[40:21]).

Quote:

“After shadow work, Jung says that there’s a peace that’s not easily disturbed...And the shadow, after you do shadow work, there’s just this peace and this new sense of groundedness and strength and courage that’s not easily disturbed.”
— Debra Maldonado ([39:05]-[40:21])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “By definition, the shadow is unconscious to us...So an insecurity is not a shadow. Like, if you know you’re insecure, you lack confidence, that’s not a shadow because you’re conscious of it.” (Dr. Rob, [07:22])
• “If you haven’t been brought to your knees by shadow work, you haven’t done it yet.” (Implied throughout [13:25]-[14:20])
• “Some of the things that are in the shower [shadow] are powerful, aggression, people don’t want it, ambition, authority, even creativity. So it’s not all bad.” (Debra, [15:18])
• “A guide is simply there to hold the space for you, to kind of check you...They’re simply there to assist in your own transformation, which is coming from within.” (Dr. Rob, [32:30])
• “After shadow work, Jung says that there’s a peace that’s not easily disturbed.” (Debra, [39:05])
• “It’s terrifying for the ego...because it means death to the ego. It's the end of its reign.” (Dr. Rob, [38:10])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:38] – Introduction and why shadow work is misunderstood
• [04:07] – Explanation of the Persona and its function
• [07:22] – What actually qualifies as “shadow”
• [10:53] – The pivotal life stage of encountering the shadow
• [13:25] – The transformative crisis of shadow confrontation
• [15:18] – Shadow’s “golden” contents: power, aggression, creativity
• [21:02] – Distinctions between inner child work and shadow work
• [28:54] – Myths about integrating the shadow by acting out behaviors
• [31:14] – Importance of a guide/mentor for shadow work
• [34:21] – Why patterns repeat and why shadow is hard to see
• [36:50] – The danger of “spiritual persona” without shadow work
• [39:05] – The lasting peace after true shadow integration

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Final Takeaways

• Pop culture often misrepresents shadow work; true Jungian shadow work is much deeper and more demanding.
• The shadow is unconscious and cannot be accessed by mere analysis, journaling, or acting out behaviors.
• Guidance is essential due to the ego's resistance — mentors facilitate, but the transformation is from within.
• True integration of the shadow brings more than healing; it brings access to our full authentic self, creativity, and inner peace.

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Recommended Action:
If you’re interested in authentic Jungian shadow work, seek experienced, qualified mentors — and prepare for a journey that is challenging, transformative, and deeply worthwhile.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome to Jung on purpose with CreativeMind, hosted by Deborah and Dr. Rob Maldonado, creators of the NeuroMindra coaching method based on Jungian psychology, non dual spirituality and social neuroscience. Join us each week as we explore personal growth for purpose seekers and the incredible inner journey of becoming your true self. Let's get started. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Young on Purpose. I'm Debra Maldonado.

[B]

I'm Dr. Rob.

[A]

And we are here. Hello. We are here for another episode of Young on Purpose. Today we're going to talk about the common misperceptions of what shadow work is, what it is and what it isn't. It's become very popular and as you know, when things get popular, things a little string of cohesion in the foundation of the work. And so we want to bring it back to Jung and his original concept so it's not blended in with other systems. And so you can clearly understand what is shadow work and what is not shadow work. Because, you know, we've seen so many people say, oh, I've done shadow work. And then they do our program and they're like, oh, this isn't the shadow work I did. So we really think it's a really good time to talk about this and help you go deeper with the shadow and actual shadow work. But before we begin, I do want to remind you to subscribe to our channel. If you're watching us on YouTube, just click the button in the corner. And if you are listening to us on one of the podcast services, don't forget to subscribe. Helps us out, get more listeners and more people hearing this content for their life. So shadow work, it's really becoming very popular. They had articles in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal. It's exploding in popularity. And every time that happens, you know, it kind of loses its thread in a way. And so what do you think about the whole shadow work explosion? I mean, I think it's good that people are interested in Jung's work is getting more recognized.

[B]

Nothing is totally good or totally bad. Of course, this is good in the sense that more people are hearing about shadow work and its importance and what it does for you. So that that's definitely a positive. The not so positive to keep it light is that it becomes pop psychology and popular psychology. Just like anything that's popular, it's like a you you mentioned earlier, it's a telephone game where the message gets progressively distorted so that by the time it gets to the end of the line, the individual, it's often jumbled up and completely saying different than the original intention.

[A]

And I think because when I first started teaching and coaching, I heard shadow and I'm like trying to think what that would be in my methodology of like reprogramming the mind. When I was doing hypnotherapy and I thought, oh, well, I guess that's shadow work. And I think a lot of people assume that, but I never use the term. But I see people say, ooh, my shadows are following me. And the negative thoughts, oh, those are my shadows. Like the negative thoughts. Or that if I reprogram my mind, I'm working on the shadows because it's unconscious. So we kind of blanket the unconscious mind or the subconscious mind in, in all, like everyone works with it the same way. And Jung has a very specific way to work with the unconscious than the other Freudian, Adlerian ways to work with the unconscious. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then inner child healing. I see people think that's their shadow is their wounded child. And then also that it's a lot of emotional catharsis. Like the emotions that we don't want to feel are our shadow and you know, we have to release them. And again, there's nothing wrong with these things, but they're not. We kind of lump them together in this concept of shadow.

[B]

Yeah. Also the whole idea of evil is kind of mixed up in there, that somehow the shadow is the evil part of us, the bad, all that stuff. Now that in talking about the shadow, let's say even though we're having a conversation about it and about the, the phenomena in culture, we're going to stick to Jung's formulation as close as we can without making it too, too academic. So we begin with the Persona. Because if we don't understand the Persona, we can't really understand the shadow and what the function of the shadow is. So if we go back to early childhood, right. We're born and then we start to grow up and learn language, learn culture from our parents, from those around us. In that process we start to develop what Jung called a Persona. So this is what most people call personality. The roles that we play in society, the kind of self identification that we have about ourselves and our, our life in the family.

[A]

Like an acceptable role, like it's socially acceptable. Right. Not who we really are, but this kind of mask that we will be. So everyone likes us and gets along.

[B]

With us and yeah, it is a mask. Absolutely. Jung would use the term mask alternatively with the idea of Persona, that it's mask, it's a play, it's an actor's roles or roles that we are playing in society. So that. That helps us understand essentially what the main function of the psyche, at least in development, is about. Right? That it's about identifying, stepping into owning these qualities that we call our personality, our Persona, and living into those. And he says that's totally necessary. It's what we have to do as human beings.

[A]

We can't just go out and be like a. Like naked in the world, basically. He calls it like our psychological clothing that we can go out into the world and function and connect with others. We don't tell everyone how we really feel in a way, because if we did, everyone would be fighting all the time. If we can read each other's minds and we don't act out on our compulsions. Like we, you know, see those TV shows where. Or the romantic comedies where the person's, like, saying, doing something annoying. And in the mind, the person's like, I'm going to punch them in the face, you know, and they have this, like, fantasy of just shaking that person or her, you know, throwing water on them or whatever. And then it's like, oh, back to, oh, I'm gonna be nice. And so that's it. We have these urges. Like, we just wanna. Like sometimes we get mad at people. We wanna yell and lash out, and it's normal. I mean, we're human beings. We have these emotions, but the Persona is like, can't do that now. Those are the things we're conscious of. We know we're conscious of what we don't. The compulsions that we don't. That we suppress. Like when we're inside going, oh, I really wanna tell Mary off or something. But the. The shadow is something else.

[B]

That's a good point. That what we know we don't like about ourselves, that is not a shadow. That's often mistaken as shadow. That if I know I don't like my shyness around people and I try to suppress it, that they think, well, that must be part of my shadow or my shadow. That's not it. Because by definition, the shadow is unconscious to us. In other words, we're unconscious of it. And therefore.

[A]

So an insecurity is not a shadow. Like, if you know you're insecure, you lack confidence. That's not a shadow because you're conscious of it.

[B]

It's in the light. It's in your awareness. By definition, the shadow is unknown to you, meaning the you as. As the role that you're playing. The you of the ego, the you of the Persona is not aware of their shadow. It's going to require an initiation, a kind of crisis point, a transformation either ritualistic or brought on by the pressures of life.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

To get the individual to confront their shadow. And that's how Jung puts it. It's a confrontation that is going to take place between the you that you built up as your personality, your Persona, and what its counterpoint in the unconscious mind is. It's a showdown.

[A]

Yeah. And so you have this, like, this person that you're trying to be. And there is a point in your 30s. Usually it starts 30s. For women, it starts younger than men for some reason. I don't know why, but women start to feel it more like earlier in their 30s, and men more later in their 30s. But everyone's different. I noticed that. It's like it seems to happen earlier for women. You kind of feel like you're tired of wearing this mask. Something happens. Usually you hit a milestone in your life. Maybe you hit 35 and you're not married. And you wonder, what am I doing? You are laid off from a job, or, you know, some. A tragedy happens, or you get sick. And then it forces you to ask yourself all these questions that your Persona has been just kind of making everything just enough. You know, like, just getting by that feeling of I'm surviving, like, treading water. The Persona is really good at treading water. And after a while, we just get exhausted. And then there's a time, I guess, when we get tired of pedaling that we sink. And we're, like, invited to go into the unconscious. And so it's like, I'm tired of being this perfect person. I'm tired of, you know, staying in this job for, you know, 30 years and really want to see who I'm made of and what I'm about. Those kind of questions, not necessarily insecurities or those things could impact you facing your shadow because you don't want to look at some things about yourself. Maybe you hid that from yourself. But typically, it's like most of what's in our shadow is the things that are going to help us take the next step in life, like where we're supposed to go next and who we really are. Jung had said that what's in our shadow is more closer to our true self than our Persona.

[B]

That's a good point. So here we have.

[A]

I was going to say, how do we access it if it's not conscious? Rob.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's something that you can't see directly. It's really hard. You can't journal your shadow. I hate to say it, you can get some insights, but you're not going to really get there just by journaling.

[B]

That's right. So here it helps to borrow a stage of the hero's journey to explain how we get started in shadow work. For the hero comfortable in his village life or her village life, there's a calling. And of course, it's a. It's an inner calling from within that you're meant to do something different than the role that you're playing in the village. You could be an important person in the village. You could be a teacher, a wise person, craftsman, craftsperson. Or you could be the rebel and the. The one that's ousted. Doesn't matter when the calling arrives from within, that it's time to go on an inner journey, that journey of adventure. Right? Slaying the dragon. The hero resists the calling, all right. Or in the story, anyway, in the stages of the hero's journey, there's a resistance to the calling. We see this in Star wars where he knows he has to go on this journey, but is hesitant and tries to avoid it. But the, the people that succeed in. In undergoing that journey or, or taking the first step towards that journey are the ones that then enter the shadow process. And here we're borrowing from mythology to understand the psychology so that at a certain point in life, like you were saying, maybe around 30, 35, around there, there's a calling for us to, to do something with our lives that may be different than what we're doing. Maybe it's within the same line. It's not about the external so much, but it means that you have to give up or transcend the role and the roles that you've been playing in society to find yourself the true self in you.

[A]

And that's a challenge because we have so much invested in this role and so much security and so much continuity, and we're basically inviting in, like turning over the tables or burning down the house, burning the ships to enter something, a new aspect or a new stage of our life. And it. It can be very scary. That's why the, the shadow. If you, if you're not sure if you've done shadow work, you haven't done shadow work because. Because it is. It really knocks you off your feet. It really. It's not like, I got an insight and I feel better now and I'm just gonna go on with my life. And now I integrated my shadow. It's like, it brings you to your knees because you're asked to, like, basically redefine yourself in a new way consciously by. By looking at it.

[B]

Yes. Like Young says in some of his interviews, it's a hell of a thing.

[A]

It's a hell of a thing.

[B]

And that's what this shadow work is. It's a hell of a thing. It's not something you're going to journal on a weekend and be done with. It's going to put you to the test. Because just like in the Hero's journey, they have to face real peril. Now in this situation, it's not that we're putting ourselves in danger willingly. It's that we. That calling tell gives us the idea that if I don't do this, my whole life is in peril, but the whole, the whole. My legacy, the whole purpose of being a human being is in peril because it is. If you remain locked in your Persona, in your mass that you created to survive in society, then you're not fulfilling your destiny as a human being. You're essentially stopping the process.

[A]

And most of the time, people don't do it willingly. And it's where you have no choice. I remember in my mid-30s, it was like painful to stay stuck like that. It's too painful to stay in the bud that the flower had to bloom. Anais Nin said it's. It is that way. It's almost like you really don't want to do shadow work or you don't want to face your shadow. You don't want to go on this journey, but you're forced to because you. The alternative is to just remain in either unfulfillment or just. It's some kind of emotional pain, you know, because it's. To live an unfulfilled life can be very dark and painful. It could be very depressing. And this is the first step of that journey is to face the shadow, which is so important. If you skip this step, all the other changing your life and going, you know, having that second half of life and meaning is you're still just building up another Persona and you're not really accessing real, true power that's in the shadow. Some of the things that are in the shower are powerful, aggression, people don't want it, ambition, authority, even creativity. So it's not all bad. It's these, these functions that have like, kind of like tools that we can access as a human being that we're not using. We're leaving them in the toolbox because. And locked away. Because we were told sometime that if you let yourself be. And aggression doesn't mean hurting others, but you could be aggressively passionate about something and, and letting that passion flow. And if you've suppressed that your whole life, your desires, what you want, what you want to create your dreams, it turns into anger and you're kind of that if you don't address that, it turns into depression. So you definitely need to look at that. You've spent years building success and achieving what others would only imagine. But yet something deeper is calling. A desire for work that's meaningful, transformative and rooted in who you really are. At CreativeMind, we train professionals to guide others through real psychological transformation using Jungian principles, Eastern spirituality and social neuroscience. No cliches, no surface level tools, just depth, structure and purpose. Our ICF accredited Jungian Life coach training program provides a profound professional training in small cohorts that includes personal transformation with a dedicated coach and powerful tools to help you guide others in a deep, lasting transformation. Step into that next chapter of your personal and professional evolution. Join us by visiting creativemindlife.com and speak to an admission specialist today. That's creativemindlife.com.

[B]

Yeah, and, and at this point, of course, a lot of people ask because we take students through individuation year round, basically we do it continuously at the. But at this point, right, People begin to ask this question is like, why would I want to do this? It's a lot easier to remain in my comfort zone, in my Persona and just polish it up, right, and fix it up and be a better Persona or create another Persona or something like that. Well, here's the thing that if you remain as Persona in your comfort zone, you're missing out on this transformation. This very similar to what you were mentioning, right? The blossoming of life. It's, it's like you're, you're stunting your own growth. And from our perspective, we've seen that it's a lot more dangerous and a lot more perilous to stay there in your comfort zone, in your Persona than to express the fullness of yourself and go on that journey of discovery. Because you're essentially letting the unconscious rule your life. And that, my friends, is much more dangerous than any perils of facing what's in our shadow.

[A]

Yeah, it's. I remember when I first started doing personal growth and your ego does fight it. Your ego doesn't want to do difficult work. It wants to get things over with. And in our culture it's quick, fast and cheap. You know, like, let's just get it, you know, go do a technique and erase my problems. I remember when I was a hypnotherapist, people would say. Would say, just take away my. Hypnotize this away from me. And I'm like, it's a little more work than that. But I remember too, like, when it came to trying to face some difficult things, I would often skip around it and play around it. I would put my toe in, but I would never fully go in it, which kept me going. And if those of you can relate to me, you might recognize it. It's like you start to go, and then you back off and you're, okay, that's enough. I think I've done enough. I had enough insight. But then the pattern keeps repeating. And so we have to jump right in. We have to dive right in. That's the only way. And the ego is terrified of that. Not you. Your true self is saying, let's go. But your ego is conditioned to keep you from going there. So there'll be a lot of resistance, and you won't even know it's resistance because it'll sound like a really good excuse, really rational excuse.

[B]

I know you thought a lot about this, because you've mentioned it a few times, that the inner child work is often misinterpreted as shadow. What's your latest thinking, say, as you've done more and more shadow work?

[A]

Well, if you think about the inner child, the work that when I was trained early on, what was taught to me was the inner child was this wounded, broken part of us that needs attention. Now. Are there aspects of inner shadow that sound like that? Yes. There are parts of us that we repress. We don't want to be the little kid that was teased in elementary school or junior high. We push that in our shadow. We try to compensate by having a Persona that we're popular and we're this. But I think the misconception is if I do inner child work, I'm doing shadow work, and that's all I need to do. Like, we're not. It's just a piece of it. And I also think that approaching the shadow and the child, parts of the child that we're. Are not allowed to be expressed are mostly gold. They're not wounds. They're actually beautiful parts of our creativity, our imagination that, you know, we were. We didn't have. When we were kids, we didn't have lots of fear. We were, you know, until someone told us to be afraid. We did crazy things. You know, we played in the backyard and ran around. I don't know if they do that now because of everyone's so into their cell phones and everything. But I remember being kids just being free and. And we lose that as we go to school. And. And so it goes into our shadow because we have to mature and we can't be playful anymore. We all see that time and that age where we, you know, between elementary school and junior high, like, something changes. Like in elementary school, you're still a kid, and then you go to junior high and everyone's wearing bras and, you know, the boys are getting mustaches, and we're all going through. Our hormones are all spinning, and we're actually have to leave that child behind, but it doesn't mean it's wounded. And even then, I mean, I always think of any type of pattern we have, we want to look at it. It's a sign of a healthy mind that anything that we're experiencing is more of a defense mechanism that the ego created to protect us. And that's a healthy mind. And so if we approach it in a more empowering way, that is something that will help you go farther than just feeling like. I always felt like when I first started doing that work, it was constant healing myself, healing myself, healing myself. And then I would repeat the pattern, oh, I'm still broken. I'm still broken. And it really isn't very empowering to keep going there. So there's parts of the inner child that's in the shadow, but that's not the entire shadow.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. And I can see why people.

[A]

And we're not healing the shadow.

[B]

Yeah, I can see why people mistake inner child work with the Jungian shadow work. But yeah, that's. That's an interesting idea, that the inner child is an archetype in the Jungian sense. Are there aspects of the inner child in our shadow work or in the shadow, like you say? Yeah, absolutely, because we have to leave our childhood behind, which means often repressing certain tendencies and predispositions in favor of adopting a more mature Persona. So those are definitely there. The challenge for most of us in really confronting our shadow. Well, there's so many. Right. But let's look at the ego. The ego has powerful defense mechanisms against incorporating shadow content because it did a lot of work in trying to repress it and pushing it away and have us forget about it. In other words, have it not be part of our identity. So now it's almost like it's looking at us and saying, the ego is saying, I did all this work to help you push Away the shadow and become this Persona that you've created for yourself. And now you want to integrate these aspects of your shadow. So it's saying it doesn't.

[A]

So it's like the same mechanism that suppressed it is working against you to let it go, to see it again. So it's created that way. And that's its job. The ego, to keep it under wraps, keep your Persona looking good. I think we all have. Some people have the nerdy background growing up, and they don't want to be the nerd anymore. They want to be cool, and they want to look good. You see some of these tech billionaires, and, you know, they probably were really teased at school, and now they're, you know, with their, like, the way they present themselves, you could see the Persona of, you know, trying to prove that they're okay. And that would be. Their shadow would be that scared little boy who's. Who's been stuffed in a locker. And. And. And it's very. Imagine the ego going, we can't let that come out. That's going to ruin everything. It's going to knock everything down. That's an extreme case, by the way.

[B]

Yes. The other side is that most of what is in the shadow, the content that's in the shadow, the ego is afraid of fears it. Even though the. Even the good stuff, because it often denotes taking responsibility, stepping into higher levels of responsibility in your life. And so that content is really fearful or scary for the ego.

[A]

So can I ask you a question about that? Because let's say your parents exhibited a behavior or personality trait that you found offensive. You would put that in your shadow. You would be, I don't want to be like them. But then you end up acting out like them unconsciously because you're part of them genetically. You have a predisposition to have that personality trait anyway. And then there's some sort of power that you got that they had that you want to have, your ego wants to have. So it's almost like we can exhibit a behavior in our shadow without being conscious of it. And that's still the shadow.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's very tricky. That's the danger of leaving, not heeding the call to face the shadow, to have that confrontation with a shadow, because then you're always living in fear. In essence, the shadow is always held over your head as a threat.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

And that's no way to live. It's like living in hiding or treading water.

[A]

Like you're trying to keep that. That shadow from coming up. You Know, going in, like being, being absorbed in you. You're trying to keep your head above water and not letting it drag you.

[B]

Down very much in survival mode.

[A]

So some of the other popular ways to deal with the shadow, like we talked about the shadow and we talk about, well, how do we work with it? And one of the things we talked about, we're not healing it. So it's not wrong or bad. But another thing I see which is really interesting is more of a behaviorism, a cognitive behavioral approach to shadow work, which is if you find something in your shadow, act it out. And then if you just act it out, then you're integrating the shadow. So let your anger out, unleash your shadow self, all those things, or just own your dark side. I think those are like over simplistic ways to work. So I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit and why it doesn't work, just to act it out.

[B]

Yeah. Jung famously said people will do the most ridiculous things to avoid that confrontation with their unconscious mind. Which means the shadow.

[A]

It actually means possession. When you're doing that, the shadow is possessing you. And there's a lot of times we do act out of our shadow. We're not aware of it, but we do. And that means the shadow's possessing us in the moment. And it's not really integrated. It's just. I call it Persona swapping or. And then we do it unconsciously too, where we just act out of our shadow. We fly off the handle. Right. And get angry at the. While we're in traffic.

[B]

Yeah, and this is a really important point, and this is from Young's theoretical formulation of shadow work. So it may sound self serving for us because we're trained or we take people through shadow work, but, you know, if you don't do it with us, do it with somebody else. But find people that know how to work at this level. Right. At the depth psychology level with the shadow. So this is the point. All of us need a guide in order to do shadow work properly. Without our guides, without a coach, without a analyst, without somebody that really has done it for themselves. It's very difficult because the ego is a genius at distracting you and finding ways to get you back to your comfort zone, your ego. And if you trust it, if you trust that little voice in your head, it will simply lead you around in a circle and you'll end up again in your Persona and your role. And, you know, you'll be happy, comfortable again, but again, very limited and not really fulfilling the Full transformation. That is, that is at the core of you. Right. It's all at the core of us. We're all born as biological beings, but we're meant to use this life to transform our psyche into these higher stages of awareness.

[A]

Well, I can attest to that, Rob, because I've been doing this for 20 years. I know shadow work in and out and I still can't do it on myself. And I will work with, through a shadow a little bit. Have like, do active imagination, have dreams and then I'll talk to you about what my insights were for it. And you're like, oh no, that's not it. And you'll ask me a question or you'll ask me a couple questions and then we really get to the root. Because your ego, even if you know it all philosophically, intellectually, your ego still, no matter how much individual work you do, will hide it from you. And it's always better to do it with someone who is beyond your level of individuation because they kind of can see things differently than someone who's just starting out with you. Now, I'm not saying that beginners can't help, but after a while you're going to seek a mentor that's on the next level so you can keep learning about it. And I know for me so many times, Rob, you just shook your head and you were like, no, that's not it. Have you considered this? And I, and my eyes would just be like, oh my God, I couldn't believe it. So yeah, and I get to have my own mentor with me every day.

[B]

Yeah. And, and here's the thing, you know, just to give a heads up to people that are seeking shadow work. Stay away from people that are presenting it as I am going to do something to you. Right. I have the power and I have the magic and I'm going to put, put my hands on your head or something and you're going to integrate your shadow. That's not what we mean by having a guide. That's not it. A guide is simply there to hold the space for you, to kind of check you. Almost like in, in weightlifting where they have the somebody, the spotter. Yeah. They're simply there to assist in your own transformation, which is coming from within. The. If the individual gives you the sense that they are doing something to you, that's not real shadow work. Essentially they're, they're working on themselves. It is something personal that comes from the inside. And you have to confront your fears. Not only fears. Right. But we let's say it's an easy one for people to understand that there's an internal unconscious fear in the shadow that you have to confront. You have to face it. If you are always running away from it, you're always living as if you're running from yourself. And you can't get away from yourself. Anywhere you go, you're there. And therefore it's always showing up. And that is what people call the patterns of my life. So they fall into the same kind of work, the same kind of relationships, the same kind of troubles, the same kind of illnesses, on and on. Because the unconscious is trying to prompt them to stop and face their shadow face.

[A]

So it repeats the pattern so you can finally see it. And if you see that, a good question to ask yourself. Everyone has a pattern that they're one of and break free of. So what. So what is this pattern? What are you running away from that's driving this pattern? So it's really a fear. And you might not get to it by just asking yourself that question. But you start throwing it out there and meditating on it. But it's in there. It's like what you fear. Like Joseph Campbell says, the cave you dare to fear to enter contains the treasure you seek. And that's really what it is. And with shadow work too, just like dream interpretation, if you can easily name it, analyze it, and affirm it, it's not the shadow. It's something that makes you feel. I could have never figured that out by myself. And it's. It's so obvious when you finally see it, but it's so not obvious when you can't see it. So it's. It's really surprising. It knocks you off your feet. But once you face it, what you thought you feared and that would be so terrible, turns out to be nothing. It's like just nothing. And you are free. And it just opens up so much creativity in your life. So when you work and face your shadow, which is making it conscious, really understanding where it is making it conscious, and then it's not reprogramming yourself to integrate the shadow. It's actually the witness mind. We could talk about that a little bit. Is that we're actually acting out of our true self or that kind of unlabeled part of ourself where we're free from those labels of Persona, shadow, and we're acting out of choice, where all possibilities exist.

[B]

That's a good way to put it. It is kind of entering another stage of life where there's a lot More room, a lot more space for you to breathe and to do. And you have all the resources at hand. But they're coming from within. You're not seeking them externally. You're not seeking approval from others and using that to validate your life. You're. You trust in your own inclinations, which Jung called the self. The self starts to emerge after shadow work. So people that talk about the self or working towards the self before they do shadow work for us, all they're doing is kind of reflecting on this ideal and not really getting anywhere. Right. They're creating.

[A]

It's inflating the ego.

[B]

Often they're inflating the ego or creating a Persona that is spiritual and looks spiritual to others. But in the inside, they haven't really changed. They're just using the Persona as a mask again to keep people out and have them appear in a certain way. So there's a couple of things that we need to mention before we end. One is that the reason we fear the shadow or the ego fears the shadow so much is that it threatens the Persona that it's built up. So if you want to know why does it feel so difficult for me to approach my fears, it's because it threatens whatever content is there in that fear, threatens the construction of the Persona, the mask. The role that we built up for ourselves is threatened by the content. So that's number one. The other one is that the ego is really afraid of being submerged in the unconscious mind. So that when we open the unconscious mind, we don't know what's. What we're going to find.

[A]

Like treading water, it doesn't want to sink into the unconscious.

[B]

It's terrified. The ego is terrified of losing itself in the unconscious mind and not being able to come back again to re restructure itself as a conscious entity. So Jung says that's terrifying for the ego. Right, because it means death to the ego. It's the end of its reign. But it's symbolic. It is that the ego. After shadow work, the ego is not going to be the center of your self identification. You're now.

[A]

No longer.

[B]

Yeah, you're no longer going to identify as your. The role that you're playing in society. The Persona, you're now going to identify as the self, the true self. And that simply means the complete human being, both conscious, unconscious, both physical, spiritual.

[A]

So shadow is an ego building. You're saying it's self building. Yourself doesn't need to be built, but the self now can run your life versus your patterns, run your life. Yeah. Wonderful topic, Rob. I really like this because we get so many questions on this from our students, and they've, you know, done shadow work with coaches, and they're just like, wait a minute. That's. This is a shadow. And. And we want to make sure that if you're interested in. In learning Jung's original idea of the shadow, that you can learn from it directly. Yeah, it's a. It's a beautiful process. It is not scary. And after shadow work, Jung says that there's a peace that's not easily disturbed. You know, in life where we get triggered a lot and we're kind of. We always feel like we're, you know, running around trying to make our life work. And the shadow. After you do shadow work, there's just this peace and this new sense of groundedness and strength and courage that's not easily disturbed. And it's such a beautiful thing. So if you know that's on the other side, it's worth all the discomfort going toward it. And when you're uncomfortable, that means you're on the right track for change.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

All right, well, thank you for listening this week. We hope you enjoyed this topic, and we'll see you next week on another episode.

[B]

See you soon.

[A]

Bye. Bye. Thank you for joining us for Jung on Purpose with Deborah Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado of Creative Mind. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast before you leave and join us each week.

[B]

Week.

[A]

We'll see you soon.