← Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
The Hidden Psychology Behind High Achievers: The Father Hunger
00:38:07
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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Jung on purpose with CreativeMind, hosted by Deborah and Dr. Rob Maldonado, creators of the NeuroMindra coaching method based on Jungian psychology, non dual spirituality and social neuroscience. Join us each week as we explore personal growth for purpose seekers and the incredible inner journey of becoming your true self. Let's get started. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another exciting episode of Jung on Purpose. I am Debra Maldonado.
- [00:40]
B
And I'm Dr. Rob. Welcome to the show.
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A
And we have a special episode for all of you high achievers out there. We want to give you some insight of what's driving that need to achieve. And that feeling of not being enough, even though you achieved so much in your life, that that feeling of it's just not good enough. And it's that gerbil wheel that you're on and it feels unsatiated. And we're going to talk about that as Father Hunger and the Father Archetype. So buckle up. We're going to go deep today and get started. But before we do, before I get Rob on the line to start giving us his wisdom, I do want to remind you to subscribe to our podcast. If you're listening to us on one of the podcast services that helps us a lot, or if you're watching us here on YouTube on the video, please click subscribe in the corner. We'd love to see you come back every week.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So, Rob, Father Hunger.
- [01:36]
B
Yeah. So in order to talk about these in an intelligent way that makes sense to people, we have to kind of set the scene a little bit. Okay, what is the Persona? Right. What is the personality? What we call our public facing enterprise that we developed sometimes. Think about it like that movie Frankenstein that we saw recently, that we create this. We put together this Persona that. This new life that we call our. Our personality from different pieces, right? From what we gather from our families, from our friends, from society, and we. We stitch it all together like we Frankenstein ourselves.
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A
That is actually a really great metaphor.
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B
Yeah. And we think this is gonna sustain me throughout my life. Right. This is gonna do it for me. But then it turns against us at a certain point because it no longer serves the function that we intended. And that's kind of where we're at. So Jung, the Jungian perspective is like this. We're all meant to create a Persona, all right? That. That's part of the work. And so there's this, let's say, this overachieving personality or person or Persona, this overachieved achieving Persona is a mask, a role that we're playing. There's nothing wrong with it. Right. People really admire the overachiever. They think, oh, my God, if I, you know, he or she must have everything. They're so personal.
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A
I want to be like them.
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B
I wish my kids were like that, that kind of thing.
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A
They must be so happy with all their achievements.
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B
Yeah, but because it is a Persona, Jung would say, that's not going to do it for the individual. It's a phase of development that runs from the time of birth, essentially, to. Till you're about 32 or so. And there's some neuroscience now that supports that. We'll talk about it maybe in another show. But the. This phase, you're. You're meant to build up a Persona, but you're not meant to hold on to it. That's the stickler right there, that people think, once I build the Persona, I'm done. All I do is kind of polish it up, make it better, get more skills, more money, more success, whatever it is, and I'll be fine. Right. That's. That's the project. But it turns against us around that time, around the early 30s, because we're not meant to stay there. We're meant to shed it. Almost like the. The shedding of the. The skin by the snake. You outgrow it. You're meant to do something different, something unique, because think of what the Persona is. It is an adaptation. Frankenstein. Yeah, It's. It's an adaptation you stitch together for social interaction, for social identity. Right. To put yourself out there as an individual to say, this is what I do, this is who I am. It gives you a self identity, works really well. Now, again, this is not pathological. Everyone does this and is meant to do this. You had a question.
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A
And so the voice in our head that says, I'm not enough, I know for me, that was. And I hear a lot of our clients and our high achievers and this voice of this belief that I'm not enough. And they think, well, if I just change that belief, if I just believe I'm enough on a conscious level, that's just kind of changing the dressing on the salad. You know, you're not really getting to it, or replacing one of the patches on the Frankenstein or putting another patch on top to make it nicer, you're not really dealing with it. Because if you're building up the ego, the ego never feels like enough. So if you're just rearranging the furniture and shining it up and going for, maybe I'll feel better when I go to that next level in my business or go find that relationship or if I make, you know, more money than my golf buddy, then I can be enough. And, and, and it's just a tiring thing and we can't. Like I used to think it's like I just need to be positive about myself and build my confidence and then, then I can feel enough. And that's not going to do it because confidence doesn't come from building up the Right.
- [06:07]
B
And, and so we can argue, right? We can note that not everyone has this Persona of super achiever. Some people have the opposite. They have the rebellious personal Persona of I'm going to do exactly the opposite of what my father did. Instead of trying to please and gain favor with a father, they're doing the opposite. So we know it's not built in that we're going to do this super achiever or high achieving Persona where peop people are going to use or develop these Personas in a unique way that suits their needs.
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A
That's why not every sibling family of high achievers is always some that are just slacky lackeys or I think that famous story of the, the I can't remember his name. The guy who, whose son was all the money in the world. Getty and his son was just did drugs and was like, went to Paris and didn't really care about the family business. There's always one in the family and I think too there is. What I see a lot with high achievers is sometimes when they leave their corporate job and they do something they love, they want to reject now all the structure and they want to just. They don't want any structure. You know, it's almost like the pendulum swings the other way. So you can be bold. I remember when I first started, left the corporate world the 9 to 5, having to be at a desk every day. When I first started, I was like, oh, I love all the freedom. But I didn't have any structure. So I had to kind of create my own to succeed. But you could see where people reject structure, reject authority, even reject money because it's money's the, the, the father represents the father. So you're either striving for it or you're rejecting it.
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B
Yeah. So let's back up again. How do we stitch together this Persona? One of the big pieces that goes into our Persona and both for men and women is our relationship with our father, our biographical father. Right. Because he represents for us as children protection, stability, a sense of accomplishment, the ability to go out into the world. And work. In other words, that sense of self, efficacy, that I can do things in the world and change it, that I have some agency. So it's very powerful. It's associated with success, money, prestige, those kind of authority. Authority. So it's. It give that peace, gives us a lot. Now, of course, people are going to say, what if my father wasn't around? It doesn't matter. You pick it up from the father figures around you.
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A
Or if your father wasn't around, wouldn't you have like an internal concept of that person, Like a caricature that left? So you're making up a whole story. There's still a father, some symbolism of a father that left. And so you have this caricature that you don't know and you've never been around, but you have this story around it that he abandoned me, he left my mom when she was pregnant, or. Or he died young, you know, like before in the war or something. But you have an image, even if you never met him or knew him or he was gone. Don't you think? It's like we. We create these image, just like with our. Our father that was here, we create an image in our mind of what that person, who that person is, how we relate to it, what our relationship, how that person relates to us or that image relates to us. And then we make a whole narrative around that.
- [09:52]
B
Yeah, that's right. And of course, you're describing the father archetype. And the father archetype is very powerful. It's essentially, let's say, an idealized father figure that we have internally in the psyche that we project onto our biographical father to the human being that's there. And that's why as children, our father appears to be larger than life.
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A
God, the man of the house.
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B
Yes. The authority, of course.
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Yeah.
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B
The moral authority of right and wrong. And all this is unconscious, of course. The child is not thinking through these things, but is projecting this powerful image unto their biographical father. So now that experience, or the, you know, kind of the. The interpretation of the experience with the biographical father is internalized so that the child now uses that internalized experience as part of the building their Persona. And what part of the Persona does that relate to success? Our relationship with money, our relationship with prestige, our ability to go out there. The confidence, like you were saying, to be in a social setting and take charge and say, yes, I can do this. And we all know.
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A
So, for example, would you say that. Let's say someone whose father was very critical and they always felt like they Felt they were disappointing their father all the time. That they never lived up to their expectations. Even as a young kid you didn't follow the rules, you got punished. Go to your room. And this happens to everyone. And it's not talking about abuse, that's a severe case, but just everyone. We, we want to follow the father. And, and one of, and there's always discipline and there's always some kind of disappointment. So then that voice of you like that interpretation then becomes as an adult someone thinking that part of themselves that says that feels disappointed in them. Like you're disappointed in yourself. You know, I should have done that better. I didn't do that good enough. That it drives perfectionism and, and, or even fear of taking action because it's, we're so highly critical and it's really that the dynamic of the father, the father complex basically that is, you know, needing that disappointment. And so that leads to, what we talk about with the father hunger is that if you're always disappointing, it's like your hunger for that approval, you're hungry for that power like to, to get that like acknowledgement. Because if he has power then he can give you power by saying you're my favorite or you're doing great. And that like fills you up. And then you grow up in the world, you're out of your parents house and then you go out and you try to make a living and you're constantly projecting that father figure, male or female, on your male or female boss. Like they have the authority. I don't want to, want to live up to their expectations. I want to hear that praise from them that you're good. And then no matter how much someone tells you how great you are, you still feel this sense of I'm still not enough. Like we're all so hard on ourselves. And this is very common. This isn't like a pathology like you said. It's this ego is just, it's never enough. It's that hunger of the ego that it's never enough because it's constantly faced outward looking for that evidence that I'm enough. And, and if you don't feel enough inside, you're going to keep seeing out there, not enough. So it's like a self fulfilling prophecy and you're caught up, like I said, in that gerbil wheel.
- [13:40]
B
Yes. So in the particular situation that we're talking about the, the overachieving Persona, what is happening is the individual feels very confident that they can go out and do things. And sure enough, the results confirm to them that that is indeed the condition of their life, that they're able to achieve great things. They work hard, they focus, they get the degrees, they get the prestige, they get the partnership in the company, whatever it is, and they achieve great things. But remember what Jung says, it's a facade, it's a, it's a play, it's a, it's an act that the individual is enacting and it's not really hitting at that soulful level. It's only an apparent success, an apparent achievement. Therefore, the individual is feeling the more they achieve, the more they feel empty of real success, of real feeling of achievement and satisfaction.
- [14:50]
A
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- [16:53]
B
Well, that's the myth of the Midas touch, right? Midas king who was granted the power to turn everything into gold. Anything he touched turned to gold. But of course it was a disaster because then he wanted a drink of water. And as he Touched the glass, it turned to gold, including the water, so he couldn't quench his thirst. And then he hugged his daughter. His daughter turned to gold, meaning, no, he lost something very precious. So gaining that success artificially, Right. Externally, is not the aim of life. That's. That's the big lesson. And that the performance Persona is precisely oriented towards that. They. They're trying to fill that father hunger with external rewards, like a compensation.
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A
Would you say that, like, we look at the world and there's a lot of talk about the billionaires, you know, having more money than they ever need, and why do you need $500 billion? I would say that they probably have father hunger, a little bit of, like, they're. They're so disconnected from their inner life that they. They really are creating this inflated ego. And how it. Well, we see how damaging it can be to the collective.
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B
It can be, yeah, there's a lot of good that's coming out of it, but also there's the shadow side, of course. And that's all we want to do is we want to understand both the. The benefits, the light of what is this AI doing, but also its negative consequences. Right. We don't understand that. We're blinding ourselves, we're fooling ourselves. So, yeah, the. The psychology of these billionaires that are pouring money into this. This AI and the race to create this artificial intelligence or a bigger generalized intelligence, is like this, the father, the internalized father. Let's say that that archetypal father that we have in our psyche, the idealized father, is not only like a great biological, biographical father for us, but what's behind that is the God image. You note, a lot of the gods that people worship are father figures. Not to. Not to discount the mother, of course, the mother plays a big role in deity formation, but one of the aspects of the deity is this father aspect, fatherly aspect. Right. So recently in some of the interviews I've heard with the creators of AI is that there's this mythology that is emerging that they want to create a godlike being through technology. Now, what does that point to? Like we were saying, that's the father hunger. They're seeking validation.
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A
And if they create it, it's almost like the Frankenstein. They're creating a monster, in a way, because they think they can create God, like replace the divine with some computer program.
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B
Yes. And that is the fundamental mistake that humans make, is that we believe the unreal, the apparent reality of external life is real, and we think that the mythology and the thoughts are unreal. Right. That they. They don't really exist, but it's the opposite. The external world is simply an appearance. And note what they're trying to do. Right. They're trying to build what is an internal work of connecting with the divine archetype. They're trying to replicate it externally, archetypally.
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A
Mapping.
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Right.
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The.
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Create an external God, to create a biological or a technological God in this case.
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A
And the reason they're doing that is because secretly they actually want to become God and they feel as gods because they have so much money and it's insane. You know, these. Yeah. And there's like they don't need anymore, but they. It's almost like they're so attached to that. They feel godlike and they feel that idea. But as a human being, it must be very. It's like almost too much for the psyche to tether yourself to the external so much that it's going. It could lead. Well, you see them, some of them are doing drugs and like, you know, nefarious things because it's like there's a dark side to that too. And I'm not saying all billionaires are bad. Like there's people that are. Do really well. But I think it's a b. Like you need to have the inner balance. You can't just be after to make money for pure power or you're going. Your ego is like very fragile and it's going to cause some problems.
- [21:51]
B
Well, good point. This is the way I always see it, that any one of us in their place would do the same thing. Yeah, probably. Yeah, we do the same thing because of the conditioning that we're exposed to or their particular conditioning. Yeah. The money for them is intoxicating and. And just feel. Fills them with this sense of power and you know, that they can do anything they want to do.
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A
Well, I even see it in the coaching industry where people are like looking at those successful coaches and the. The millionaire billion, you know, 10, you know, eight, 10 figure, whatever coaches they say they are. And it's just like shiny. Like if I align with that person and then I can have what they have and it becomes like almost like a projection that I'll be like. It's almost like we say a compensation externally. Like if I can just align and create my Persona that's so successful that I'll be okay. But it is never enough. And I see people really. I mean, I got caught up in it. You get burned out by it. You know, people that are burned out and overwhelmed and, and that we're chasing something outside of us that's an illusion. And we need to address why and the, the core. And we have to go back to that. What is our. What was our core relationship with our father? Did we. Are we performance Persona or are we a rebellious Persona? And then how do we cultivate that inner, new inner relationship with a father archetype? And that will give us kind of the thing we didn't get as a child or the thing that we needed or need now. And not to say that what you didn't get or not get is wrong. Right. It's just like part of your life and part of your. Your path. And now as a midlife, you can now add on. Now you can come from a different place. But if you don't transcend the ego, you'll be operating and keep building from that ego and from that old pattern. And that's that feeling of never enough. And that's where people get so exhausted, they feel like. And then feel like they never get. I. I know so many men and women I've worked with over the years that say I work so hard, and I feel like I can never break through. Like, I can never, like, get ahead. And that's because they're externalizing it. And then when they find that inner source, things start to flow a lot easier and they feel more like, kind of connected to their power versus projecting it out there.
- [24:22]
B
Yes. So to, to kind of simplify it and sum it up, Jung would say that the ego in this situation of this performance Persona is borrowing identity from the outer world, from the external. Right. More money, success, more prestige, et cetera. Because the inner authority, that our type of father in the psyche has not been awakened yet, or they haven't awakened their mind to the potential of this internal father figure.
- [25:04]
A
So they're projecting it outside of themselves and chasing it when it's already inside. And so it's about turning the awareness toward inward versus external. Not to ignore the external, but to know the external isn't the answer. Working harder, doubling down and working weekends, you know, trying really hard isn't going to change anything.
- [25:25]
B
Well, we see that it does change things.
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A
I mean, it change, but I mean from, from a place of not enough enoughness.
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B
That's right. I think it's the contrary. It's going to increase that not enoughness. And I need more. And we see it in addiction. Right. This is a pattern of addiction. And if we look at humankind collectively, like how we. How we relate to oil, how we relate to money, how we relate to gold. How we relate to these AI, we relate to them very much like addicts that we don't really consider the destructive power that they have, and we ignore it to the detriment of all, and we just go for what works for us. And. And how much benefit can we derive from more oil and more diamonds and more AI?
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A
And we're bombing countries and getting. Taking their resources.
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B
Yes.
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A
So it's. That kind of not enough the world is operating from.
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B
That's right. And this is the hallmark of Jung's work. It gives us a way to assess and analyze the collective consciousness of the planet. Very few psychologies are able to do that, but Jung's model allows us to do that in a sane way so that we can now be conscious and spread that consciousness through inner work so that people start to wake up. Right. En masse. In other words, it's. It's not great if only a few of us wake up.
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A
We need more of you.
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B
Yeah, we need to wake up the total. The collective awareness.
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A
I know a lot of people say, like, what can I do to change the world? I don't like where the world is going right now. The best thing you can do is do your own work, do your own inner work. Because if you do your own inner work, it's like a ripple effect. Then you're able to shift the people around you. If you're a coach, your clients will shift. You'll approach your coaching from that higher perspective versus ego building and. And move forward. Like, I love this idea too, that you said is this is like, no matter what your relationship with your father is, we all have it. And so we're either, like we say the performance Persona. That's easy for me to say, but the opposite is that rebellious Persona. And let's just touch that a little bit. A little bit more. Like, why? So people think, well, I'm rebellious, so I don't care, you know, about the world. I don't care about money. I don't care about success. I just care about peace and love and understanding. Right. And so that's. You're still caught up in ego if that's in opposition to your father. So either you align and try to approve or you rebel. It's still. The father is still that kind of pivotal anchor in you.
- [28:19]
B
Yeah. So from the. From the model that Jung gives us about Persona building, we can say that the rebelliousness is the shadow of the performance Persona. Because that overachiever is building up this undercurrent of. Of resentment against being driven for More and more without satisfaction.
- [28:48]
A
So you would say that there's a part of you that's like, I'm not enough. I'm not enough. And then the other part of you that's like, let's just quit already. Like, why are you so driven? And why do I have to be so Dr. Like, almost like resenting that you have to be in the world and have to deal with bills and money and all that.
- [29:06]
B
Right? Because if we go back to the. The childhood experience, the child expects to be protected and fathered without a price. Because that's, that's kind of the archetype, right, that the father is going to protect you, give you what you need. Yes. Guide you and scold you if you need scolding. But overall, it's a protective, empowering father that's there, Right. Ideally, when that doesn't appear in the biographical father, there's a resentment against the father, right? Against the father in general, because the child has internalized that experience with the father, with his biographical father. So that resentment, he cannot express it because that would drive the father even further away. He has to repress the anger towards the father.
- [30:01]
A
So we have like, as an ego, one or the other. So there's the. Right. The performance one that we put in the shadow or the rebel that we put in the shadow. And sometimes it flips, you know, we take on different situations. It comes different ways. And then, you know, a lot of. Not all women, but some women look for a rich guy, you know, to find that next father figure, or the man finds the father figure, maybe not with his father, but maybe the CEO of the company that they admire or a political figure that they can project that power, get that power from by identifying with them. And so we have this dynamic that is really just. We're not really getting anywhere and we're exhausting ourselves because we, we're looking externally for what we need internally. In both cases.
- [30:51]
B
Yes. And one of the big mistakes, right, the, the kind of the. An easy trap to fall into is that we think rebellion against the father for us is freedom, but it's. It's the opposite, or it's the same thing because we're, we're still hooked emotionally into that pushing away of the father. I'm. I'm not going to be like my father. Right. I hear a lot of people say that I decided early on I'm going to reject the way my father was and do the opposite. What does that mean? Is that you're hooked. You're simply hooked in the opposite Direction. Now you have to do the things that are counter to the father.
- [31:36]
A
And it's not a choice because you're initially. It's an instinctual choice. It's not a conscious choice. As a child, you make that choice and then you're living through that. And most people aren't even aware of it. They just say, oh, you know, I just don't like structure or, oh, I don't want to be in the corporate world. I want to, you know, I like. I like my day and. And just do my day, how it full unfolds, because I want to be in the flow. And we make excuses for why we do what we do. And we don't realize that this might not be a conscious choice. Now there are some people that is a conscious choice. They do their work and they decide, you know, today's my day to, you know, be lazy, and you're okay with that. But it's not driven by the unconscious and the. The compulsion that we have from our ego to rebel. And so lastly, really, truly the. The real, whatever, where it is the person, the performer, or the rebel, the answer isn't being one or the other, but it's that the ego's trying to replace other archetype with these strategies. And so they don't come. The authority direction, meaning doesn't come from the outside. So we have to really go to our deeper self to get that. So I think we all build up our ego this way, whether we are, you know, rebels or overachievers. And then we get to that midlife point where it just gets to a point where it's just not working anymore for us, the strategies. And that's supposed to happen. And that's where we start to turn inward. It's like building that external life. And now we have to turn inward. If we don't turn inward, we're just keep building and building and building. And so we want to turn it around. And then we start to reconnect with something deeper than our Persona, which is our spirit, our father archetype, the archetypal energy that's in us. That is really where the power lies.
- [33:29]
B
That's right. Another mistake that I often see is that people think, well, my relationship with my father now is good. We. We patched up a lot of the misunderstandings. Now I'm an. An adult now. I can understand his point of view. He understands. But that's. That's an error too, because that's not what we're working with in our mind. We're working with the original imprints that took place from birth to about nine years of age. We know at that point the brain is super wired to absorb everything we experience. And all the these powerful assumptions about who we are and what we can expect from the world and those do not go away that simply because we patch things up with our fathers.
- [34:20]
A
Wouldn't you say that those formations are emotional? Like it's like when we're in that before nine, it's more the emotional part of ourselves is making these decisions and that's why emotions are such a key for us instead of just understanding it intellectually.
- [34:37]
B
Yep, absolutely. Because if you think about how we operate as children, we do not necessarily think through things. We feel things, we perceive them as whole experiences that carry a lot of information for us and that stays rooted in our psyche for the rest of our lives until we do this self exploration.
- [34:59]
A
And so a sign that you're. I mean some of the ways that we do that obviously is young and coaching. You do the individuation, you do shadow work. We also have our new archetypal family field system that helps you understand the roles you, you played, the parents and the child and how those form your adult experiences. And then we connect you to the archetype which is what the true power is and the inner work that shifts everything. So if you want to find out more about that, you could check the link below in the show notes. We have a free class that's coming up for it and we'd love to share more details of that. We call it the family field. It's like a field of consciousness that we're operating in. And if we never examine it, we don't make it conscious. It just makes the decisions for us. And we think we're making a conscious decision to go to the next level and attain more and reach more. And then the other part of us is like, hey, can we just like take a vacation? When is it going to be enough? So when you start hearing that voice, when is this going to be enough? It's like a whisper from a deeper self saying, let's do some work here. Let's go in and let's. It's not about fixing it because everything's perfect. It's set up the way it is. And in effect, people that have success and have achieved are actually. It's easier for them to do the individuation because they built up their ego already and we're going to talk about that in the next episode, that they already can make something change in the world. So they don't need to prove that to themselves. Now it's about finding fulfillment in that. So we stop performing for authority. We're reacting against it, and we begin to embody the authority we were seeking all along. And no father in the world, no matter how beautiful and powerful he is, can give us our power. It's not possible. Even if your father was absolutely perfect. It's a reflection. You have to own it within yourself. Anyway, it's a very juicy episode today, and next week we're going to be talking about the ego and. And a little bit about this ego development and, like, why we need the ego and what it. What purpose does it serve. And Rob has some really interesting new research in neuroscience about the brain and what happens in different stages of life and how the ego is affected by it. So.
- [37:23]
B
Absolutely.
- [37:24]
A
All right, we'll see you next week, everyone. Take care.
- [37:27]
B
See you soon.
- [37:29]
A
Thank you for joining us for Jung On Purpose with Deborah Maldonado and Dr. Rob Martin Maldonado of Creative Mind. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast before you leave and join us each week. We'll see you soon.