← Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Creative Mind Soul Sessions with Deborah Burndt Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of CreativeMind. Explore personal growth with us through Jungian psychology, Eastern spirituality and social neuroscience in a deep but practical way. Let's begin. Hello. Welcome to another episode of Soul Sessions with CreativeMind. I'm Deborah Burt Maldonado.
- [00:29]
B
I'm Dr. Rob.
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A
And today we are talking about everyone's favorite topic, the Persona and living an authentic life.
- [00:38]
B
Yeah, we talked a lot about the shadow, so let's talk about the Persona.
- [00:42]
A
Yes, and before we begin, I do wanna remind you to subscribe to our podcast. If you're listening to us on itunes, Spotify or any of those podcast services, we want you to get every episode. But also it helps us reach more people the more we have subscribers we have. So we'd love to have you come back every week and fill your mind with wonderful insights. So the Persona.
- [01:08]
B
Yeah, I wanted to start with a one of a young's quotes on the Persona. He says the Persona is the individual system of adaptation to or the manner he assumes in dealing with the world. So it's adaptation to the world and dealing with the world. Every calling of profession, for example, has its own characteristic Persona.
- [01:35]
A
So doctor, professor, construction worker, mechanic, teacher.
- [01:42]
B
The only danger, he says, is that they become identical with their Personas. In other words, we start to over identify with a Persona. So the professor with his textbooks, the tenor with his voice, one could say with little exaggeration that the Persona is that which in reality one is not, but which one self, as well as others, thinks one is.
- [02:15]
A
And so when you talk about the imposter syndrome, it's actually a good thing if you realize that you've been living an imposter on the Persona level. And that's really the idea of the authentic life encounter to the Persona, which is that really kind of a false self, a very small, limited expression, like a flash compared to the depth of who you are. The authentic self is someone who decides who they are. That has nothing to do with the external. Yeah, they're like internally driven versus externally driven. And I think we, the beginning of life, we, we are externally driven. And then midlife is when we turn inward and ask, what, what do I really want? Why am I here? Which is Carl Jung's work, the individuation process.
- [03:01]
B
Yeah. So in essence we're all imposters. And, and I knew that about you. Right. It's a phase that we all go through that we create this Persona because we have to. It's part of Life, you know, you.
- [03:16]
A
Told me this quote a long time ago, and I always remembered it because, you know, when we go to school, we have. I remember when I was in school, there were the burnouts, there were the jocks, there were the cheerleaders, the drama school people. There's the brainiacs and the geeks, the outcasts. And. And, you know, everyone fell into those categories. And you had said that there was some research done where they asked these kids from high school, 20 years later, you know, the jock, who. Who were they in high school? And then how do they feel about themselves now? And they all felt this sense of they weren't enough. Right. They were. Even if they were the star football player, even if they were the cheerleader and had all that, the outer success in high school, they still felt they didn't belong.
- [04:04]
B
Right. Yeah. Everyone felt they were the. The outcast, the one that didn't fit in. Which is. That's really the reality. Most of us think everybody else has it together except me.
- [04:15]
A
Yeah.
- [04:15]
B
And it's. That's not the case. It's exactly the opposite. Everyone feels that they don't have it together, but everyone else does.
- [04:24]
A
And we pretend that we don't. We have. And then we. We don't feel it, but we pretend we have it together. Which is the Persona.
- [04:31]
B
That's right. That's the Persona. So the Persona is the mask we wear to adapt to societal expectations. So we're not saying, and Jung is not saying there's something wrong here when we do this. This is precisely the human condition. We create this mask in order to adapt to our social demands.
- [04:57]
A
And we need the mask. You know, when we were kids and babies, we cried a lot, walked around in her diapers, you know, had people take care of us. And then when we go to school, we had to, you know, not crying in front of people, and we had to control our impulses and. And then eventually shaped by a culture where we weren't so wild and unhinged as children, as toddlers and. And then eventually, as we get older, you know, getting into careers, we. It. All that wildness, all that. That kind of free emotions gets suppressed.
- [05:33]
B
Yeah.
- [05:34]
A
And we have this Persona that we then forget that's not who we are.
- [05:39]
B
Exactly. That we are playing a role, that. It is an adaptation. Young's is. It has two functions psychologically. So first, it gives us an identity. In other words, something to represent us.
- [05:52]
A
Like your name and. Yeah.
- [05:54]
B
Your Social Security number, your credit cards, all that stuff. Yeah. That's you. Right? Or that becomes like your identification. The second function, he says, is that it leaves an impression on others that we desire to give a desired perception. Desired perception is very much like advertising of our brand.
- [06:16]
A
Right. They even have coaches, I was telling you earlier, they have coaches that help leaders come up with their brands, you know, their personality brand for their, for their businesses, for their corporate career so they can get a promotion or get a job. They have like a certain way, and so they have to have a style and the way they dress. And it's all Persona.
- [06:37]
B
That's right. There's some great books. You know, I've been following this woman called Vanessa Van Edwards. She wrote Cues, which is precisely talking about this. How do you get your Persona shiny and bright and, and, you know, desirable by other people so that you appear charismatic. And they got studies and research on how to do this. It's great. But you're simply shining up the Persona again. You're, you're polishing up the mask and you're saying, yeah, this is who I am. Right. And going at it on the flip side, what you're creating is more defenses against your authentic self.
- [07:22]
A
Yeah. A Persona is a defense basic. It's kind of like a shield that hides all your vulnerabilities and your inner world and your true feelings.
- [07:31]
B
Yes. So what ends up happening is those golden handcuffs. The more successful you become at the Persona level, the more you're stuck with it. That's why you see many actors who become overnight success successes because of this great Persona that they create. They're now locked into it and they're typecast into every web. Wants them to do that spiel. Right. That they're known and that's all they want from them.
- [08:02]
A
And they want to break away.
- [08:03]
B
They don't want to hear your problems and who you are and how vulnerable you are. They just want to see that Persona that you created. So it becomes a trap limitation for us, and especially, you know, in the ordinary sense for most of us. It's simply that we over identify and we think, this is who I am and what else is there?
- [08:27]
A
Well, I see a lot of people, you know, in our work, you know, we have a lot of people that come to us to change careers and to become coaches and like kind of give back and have meaning and fulfillment in their, their careers. And they come from their doctors or successful, you know, documentary documentarians, filmmakers, you know, these really successful people. And it's like that Persona. We see so many people afraid to let that go, like that identity. But I think we Come to a point, and that's really the point of this work is you come to the point where you start feeling that this Persona is like, instead of being a help to you, it becomes a burden. And there's something about it, like the expectations of others even. You know, I was thinking, as someone who's a parent, you have to have this, like, I know a lot of moms have a conflict with staying at home with their kids and pursuing a career. And how do you have that balance? And you know, or a father being a good father and provider and also being successful in that conflict of a father role. It needs to be this or that and it needs to be defined. And we feel very, very constricted by this Persona. And it's very socially directed and not innerly inner directed. And we're kind of living up to the expectations of others.
- [09:50]
B
Very much so. And it's very powerful. I mean, if you think about social pressure, you can feel it and see it very much with your clique, right? With your friends and peers. There's that social pressure to be like them. But imagine the whole society that you have to fit into these images of success. And like Jung was saying, every profession and every career has its Persona. So that if, if you're a physician, for example, then you have to live through that Persona and that becomes your, your identification. You over identify as that and that becomes your life.
- [10:33]
A
And you can't see yourself being anything else. I remember when I was in the corporate world and I was leaving to become a hypnotherapist initially and coach and my mom said to me, you have a good job. Like, why would you leave that job? Why would. You know, people around you would tell you, stay in your prison. Don't free yourself. God forbid, don't free yourself. It's too scary. And I said, I just can't do it anymore. I couldn't do it. And I. I think part of that too is I had to change my perception. My Persona was this corporate businesswoman. And now I'm becoming this person that helps others with their mind and coaches people and services people in a very different way than marketing a company. And I had to like, basically redevelop that Persona and redefine myself.
- [11:21]
B
That's right. So Jung is not saying, let's get rid of the Persona. He's saying, over identification with the Persona can lead to a loss of authenticity. That's a big price to pay. In other words, we get to a certain point, especially around 30, 35, we start to feel like There must be more to life than winning at the career or getting a job or getting that promotion, meeting those expectations of the parents and society. And if we don't find anything, we start to feel empty, meaningless. We're not authentic. We know we're only living on the surface and there's no depth to our life. That's what he means by the loss of authenticity.
- [12:13]
A
It's like an emptiness, a feeling of, not emptiness in the Buddhist sense, but emptiness. And you get to the point where more money, more love, relationships, you know, having the most perfect body is not going to make you happy anymore. It's, it's, we're always chasing something externally, building up that Persona and like fine tuning in our life outside. And nothing really satisfies us because it's not really where we should be working. We should be working on the inner journey.
- [12:48]
B
That's right. And confusing the Persona with the true self hinders personal growth. And here's where people feel stuck that you're not growing. And this is a misconception many people have. They think, well, if I get to 21, I, I've stopped growing, essentially I'm. The rest is just being an adult. But that's not the case. There is, there is this kind of long trajectory of development that keeps on going. After we're 20, 30, 40, even into our 70s and 80s, we are continuously growing into new phases of life. And when we're not living an authentic life, when we're over identified with Persona, we're pretty much stuck in our early adulthood. Yeah, that's as far as we go. And there's no potential growth anymore because the, the mask is simply kind of centered or identified around the profession. And if you've achieved that, you feel like I'm done, I've created that, I've succeeded at that, or I've done the thing that was asked for me of me. What else is there?
- [14:05]
A
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- [15:09]
B
The midlife crisis.
- [15:09]
A
Yeah, the midlife. But at crisis point, in a way where we, you know, the relationship we thought was going to last forever or the person leaves us, or the job that we thought we, you know, the company that we put our heart and soul in decides to lay us off after 10, 20 years. And. And I know a lot of people that leave without their choice. They feel this sense of, well, who am I now? And I think it's a great opportunity because we see in those. Those times of crisis how enraptured, enmeshed we were in that Persona. Like being someone's partner, wife or husband. Right. I'm a couple. Like, my Persona is basically interwoven with this other person. Who am I without that partner? Who am I without that job? You know, we just watched Christopher Reeve, remember the documentary on him? It was really amazing. He was Superman and then he was a paraplegic. And so again, those questions is that. That's a severe case. But who am I? Like, I'm not this actor anymore that's flying and, you know, the superhero, that Persona. I'm this just ordinary person. And. And you know, I think too of people that do have fame or have success. People project so much onto you that you're. You have all these things and then if you lose it, it's almost like worse because now you have all these people, like, expecting you to rise up again or be a certain way, whether it's you're famous in, you know, your, you know, big media, or if you're just in your small town or, you know, people that have reputation issues. The. That's all Persona.
- [16:53]
B
Absolutely. So individuation, according to Jung, meaning self actualization, really experiencing and knowing your true self. It begins by you coming to terms with this idea of Persona. Again, not pushing it away, not denying it, not trying to get rid of it, but understanding what the Persona is and what you've been doing with it and what it's been doing in your psychology. Essentially, how, if you've over identified with it, to start to question if. If I didn't have this profession, this mass, this role to play in life, who would I be like? What is at the essence of my being? What is at the core of myself? That. Those kind of questions, you know, throw people for a loop sometimes because they've never really pondered these profound questions. And it's a process, of course, and individuation is the whole psychology that Jung developed to address those questions. In other words, to give the individual a map of the inner journey that's about to take place.
- [18:12]
A
Well, you know, I think also, too, those people who are passionate about personal growth, they get to learn about their patterns from their childhood and things that happen to them. And then their Persona is basically, I'm this person who experienced that thing, and it's almost like they hang onto it almost as a familiarity, even though it's painful and it's a part of the past they want to get rid of, but there's this kind of comfort in it. And. And, you know, when I work with people, I always ask them, like, what would you have to give up in order to step into that potential, to leave that behind? Like, what. What value does this give you to keep holding on? Like, it's like a backpack you're carrying your past around with. And. And like examining the Persona and this. This kind of identity that you are so attached to and being willing to let it go and let something else emerge is so powerful. And that's really what individuation is. It's you. You still have a Persona, but it'll be more of an authentic Persona by choice, where most of when we think of the Persona, it's basically a construct of our default conditioning and all the things that we learn from society to who we need to be, and it's not really our choice.
- [19:24]
B
Yeah. And often people are surprised at what the self calls them to be and to do in life. And it's sometimes very different than the Persona they had built in their early adulthood. I thought I was going to be an artist. That was my. My Persona early on. And, you know, I was ready to do it. It made sense. You know, I had come from a family of artisans. There was a lot of interest in music and sculpture and painting and going to Italy to train those kind of things. And I said, well, yeah, let's. Let's do it right. It fit with the social norms and expectations of my culture, my family, society.
- [20:12]
A
And then what happened?
- [20:13]
B
Then I started to read Jung, and he, you know, introduced me to this idea of the Persona, that it's a mask, that there is a true self that is more authentic you, more authentically you, and that will give you your purpose from within you.
- [20:32]
A
But don't you think the artist is a part of the real you?
- [20:36]
B
Yeah, exactly. That's why. Why we're saying you don't throw away the Persona. You don't get rid of it. You don't want get rid of it. But it's the over identification with it that's the problem. That it's not allowing the true purpose to arise from within the self. In other words, if you, if we ask where did the, the Persona come from? It comes from the external, from social expectations, social adaptation, kind of fitting in and adapting to environments. Where does the true self come from? From within you. There's no, no reason to look outwardly. You, you have the answer within you already.
- [21:24]
A
Don't you think though, some people have that kind of sense of who they are when they're younger and then they, they live into. Like for me, I had the opposite. I wanted to of course, be a singer, a famous singer, of course. And I can't sing. I was told in my kindergarten class that one of my students said, you can't sing? And I destroyed me. But I always wanted to be like an actress and a writer. Like I wrote books. And then when I got into junior high and like later, you know, in high school, the Persona of that's not. And no one in my family was creative like that. So I basically forgot about it for so long. And then when I turned 40 and started doing, you know, the hypnotherapy and coaching, the teacher was like, oh yeah, you can write books. I'm like, oh, I can write again. And then. And it's all the work I do now is all that childhood, like integrating a lot of that original soulful connection I had with writing and with performing and like that natural part of me that was basically my Persona suppressed because it wasn't acceptable or I was insecure, I couldn't show who I was. So you kind of hide all that. Like you're afraid to show that part of yourself. Right. And so then you suppress it. And then I forgot about it for a long time.
- [22:45]
B
Yeah.
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A
Would that be something that you would say that the Persona kind of covers up our true talents and gifts and makes us put on the face or the mask to fit into society and for like career that makes sense to people or goals that make sense to, to your culture and your family?
- [23:05]
B
Yeah, I would say so. It covers it up because just like a mask, right, it covers a real face. Yeah, that's what Jung meant by the Persona. It's a covering of the true you, the real self, so that even if you're successful and end up doing essentially what your calling is or your true self purpose is, if you end up doing it as Persona, it's not authentic because it's it's still part of you pleasing others. You kind of trying to get validation from your family, from your peers, from external society. The, the true calling. Right. The, the real purpose in us comes from within. And it doesn't matter if anybody acknowledges your. Validates you, you know that you're doing it. And the satisfaction comes from within you.
- [24:05]
A
Wouldn't you say too, that. And I've seen this happen, is that when you start undertaking this process of being more authentic you and working through the shadow work, which is the first step of individuation and kind of deconstructing that Persona, those rigid masks that we put on, we start to change the people we want to hang out with. We. You know, when you're unindividuated, you probably have the same friends for, you know, the same group of friends, and you're the same character with them. And then there's that part of you, you know, when you break away, it's just like it doesn't resonate anymore. Almost like you don't fit with that. The puzzle pieces don't fit anymore. And you're. You're basically either not inspired by them or they're feeling threatened by you because you, you're become someone new. It's like, who are you? And. And so it does kind of shake up your social life a little bit.
- [24:59]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. And.
- [25:01]
A
And in a good way.
- [25:04]
B
Yeah. If it's really coming from your inner passion, your, Your true self, you're willing to give that up. In other words, you're willing to sacrifice whatever external, you know, losses are going to come about because of that. Because, you know, that's. That's your purpose. That's your higher purpose. It's what you're meant to be doing. It's. It's what fulfills you. It's. It's like your mission in life.
- [25:31]
A
I think that's actually. I love that, that when you, you know, you're living your purpose or moving toward it, it's where everyone on the outside is like, is that person crazy? They're giving up this stuff. They're giving up that job or that relationship to, to pursue something or their hometown, like, to move somewhere else and to travel. I remember, yeah. My people telling me, why are you leaving your comfortable job? And why would you do that? Why would you give it? And I remember feeling that way, that, that conflict with. I know I need to leave. I know I have to give this up. I have to give this up. And that's when I knew I was on the right track because I Was willing to basically lose everything that I was comfortable externally in order to pursue my purpose. And of course, I didn't have to give up anything. That's the, that's the secret that no one tells you is that when you do follow that soulful, authentic life, the abundance, the new friendships, the new relationships will start to emerge in your life and you think it's going to be this terrible thing and it actually being much better than the life that you were living that you thought was so great.
- [26:42]
B
So individuation involves recognizing, first of all, recognizing that you've been playing this role that you've been over, identifying as Persona and then integrating the Persona again. We're not pushing it away. We're not denying it. We're not trying to get rid of it. We're not. How do you say, how do you call it?
- [27:04]
A
Like rearranging the furniture.
- [27:06]
B
Yeah. Or flip flopping.
- [27:07]
A
Oh, Persona swapping.
- [27:09]
B
So swapping. In other words, not becoming another Persona that is opposite of the Persona that we've been playing. We integrating or integration means we're really absorbing it into the self so that the Persona now serves your higher purpose. So that for me, the, the, the interest in art, in sculpting, it can serve my work as a psychologist, as a coach. It can serve that, that higher purpose.
- [27:43]
A
Well, me too. On stage, I mean, doing a show here, you know, we do events and I'm on stage being able to teach and writing. I mean, we. I write a lot for this, our work, you know, writing blogs, writing books. And so I'm able to do. Do all the things and apply all my passions into my purpose, which makes it more appealing. It's not something I just do on the weekends after my 9 to 5 job.
- [28:11]
B
Yes. So often think people think it's about what you're doing, but it's not that. It's more of why you're doing it and where's it coming from? Is it coming from ego, Persona, or is it coming from the authentic self that's the authentic life? When it's coming from your true self, authenticity is right there in everything you're doing. It doesn't matter if you decide to be a gardener. It's going to be an authentic life and it's going to be beautiful and fulfilling for you.
- [28:44]
A
Well, I think of. If you think about what is the difference between the ego and that true authentic self, when you think of the ego, it has lower desires. And the lower desires. Think of the hierarchy of needs of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, survival you know, fitting in, feeling safe, all those things, those lower level survival mechanisms. And then when it's coming from the higher desire, the sense of why and purpose and evolution and spiritual connection, those are higher desires. So whenever you're making a choice and wondering if you're living in Persona, am I coming from a place of fear and you know, needing to survive, or am I making this choice because I have to do it? Like, when I left the corporate world, I got laid off actually, and I could have found another job. They actually offered me a job at another company in marketing. And I said no, I want to see what I'm made of and I want to give this a chance. I want to give this a shot. What do I have to lose? I'd already ran this rodeo in corporate world. What do I have to lose? And you know, it really was the most thrilling and empowering decision I ever made because I basically took my destiny. No company was going to tell me this is how much money you make. I got to choose my own destiny. And everything shifted from that point. And I think. And then I didn't even know about a situation yet at that point, but I knew I was not happy and I was like basically shrinking and almost like I wasn't even growing. I was actually reducing my life in that corporate job. It was that soul sucking corporate career and, and, and yeah, just to step into something and listen to that voice. And we all have it, even if we haven't entered the process yet. There's that little voice in us that's saying, come on, this isn't all there is. Come on.
- [30:37]
B
There's one other point that Jung makes that's interesting. And he says the Persona is a compromise between individual uniqueness and the collective norms. So what this means is that when we're, when we're living out of Persona, out of the mask, we're not really fulfilling our, our mission and we're not really contributing to society. We're. On the contrary, I think we were being a drag on society because we're simply showing up without that passion for the work.
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A
It's like another cog in the wheel, you know, just kind of punch it in. Punching out of life.
- [31:20]
B
Yes.
- [31:20]
A
Autopilot.
- [31:22]
B
In, in. You know, I, I work my way through university, working in hospitals, and I would see a lot of these people that were just there to kind of take up space, right? They, they weren't passionate about the work. They didn't really care about helping others. They were more interested in validating their own jobs, bureaucrats, survival you know, essentially it's how companies become bureaucracies. It's simply that people are not invested in the work. They're simply showing up, putting in their hours and going home, know, doing it.
- [32:05]
A
Again, phoning it in.
- [32:06]
B
As we say, when you individuate, when you find your true passion and purpose, your work becomes really important for society, for the collective. In other words, instead of just being important to you because you know, it's not about being personal survival, right? Yeah. It's not about self centeredness, although you're focusing on your personal development. It's in the service of the bigger society. That's a good collective.
- [32:35]
A
Yeah.
- [32:36]
B
Then you're able to contribute and your work really becomes important to the collective. So it's, it's a strange mirror effect that the situation gives us that when people are focused on the Persona, it feels like they're being, that they're giving into the collectiveness is by trying to please and, and, and going along with the program and not making waves. But in the long run, it's the opposite effect. They're being a drag on society. They're not contributing. When individuals dare to stand up and say, no, this is my vision, this is how I'm going to do it, then they're able to contribute to the society in a real powerful way.
- [33:19]
A
Yeah, kind of like being a disruptor. Just like in any industry, you're disrupting your life. It's. You're be willing to disrupt the status quo and it's like giving that, giving up something that's really not fulfilling and not empowering, to stepping into something higher, like more of your true nature and honoring that. And yeah, it's amazing that so many people go through life and they don't even realize they have a Persona. When we used to first start doing this work together, people are like, oh my God, I didn't even know I had a Persona. And it's so, so those of you listening, maybe you're one of them. Like, wow, I didn't realize. And so you think about just to leave with something tangible for you to kind of think about is what are the personality traits that you think you're so proud of of yourself? You know, maybe you're proud that you have a PhD or MD after your name or that you have, you know, your happily married woman with five kids and you're a family person. You know, what are the things you're really proud of? Or maybe you're really successful and you created a successful business. Those are Persona. And is that the meaning of your life? Is that, like, all there is? And is it something that is serving you or is it becoming, Hanging onto that Persona? How does that limit you? How does it become a burden for you? And at first, most people would be like, oh, it's not really a burden. They're like, well, but you know what? At this corporate job, some days I wish I could just take off and go live on an island somewhere or leave my husband and my kids and, like, have a spa day, you know, or, you know, there's. There's things about holding onto that Persona that are holding you back. And again, you don't have to give up everything. You don't have to even give up the Persona. But you want to bring in the authentic elements so you can make a choice.
- [35:15]
B
That's right. It's more about exploring who you really are. Right. Who is the real you and that. That's the whole. Or the aim of Jungian depth psychology and coaching is to find out and give the individual the tools so that they can know that the answer to that question.
- [35:36]
A
Do you think that, like, when you look at your life and you look at yourself when you were in your 20s, like, for me, I think that person's a stranger. Like, that Persona is not really me any. Like, I was like, this person I am now is so, like, my more authentic. I wasn't even conscious of that part of me at that time.
- [35:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, because it's all that behavior is really conditioned behavior. It's us responding to our social environments and acting out of that. It's not real, and there is no real self in that. It's simply behavior emitted from the mind, body.
- [36:17]
A
And at that time, you think, this is me. This is me. And now we look back and I think it's such an odd feeling, like, who is that person? Almost like this other. Other person. Like. Like another soul stepped in to take over this body or something. It's just. Well, actually, I guess your soul does take over eventually and become the leader in your life versus the ego, and that's really the transformation. So, yeah. So we'll continue this topic on Persona. We'll talk about relationships and the Persona, work, leadership in the Persona, and even your mind, body, health, and the Persona. Very, very powerful spirituality and spirituality. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of spiritual Personas out there and how to really know if it's a spiritual Persona or the real authentic stuff. So thank you so much for joining us again. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast, and we will see you next week on another episode.
- [37:14]
B
See you soon.
- [37:15]
A
Take care. Thank you for joining us. And don't forget to subscribe to CreativeMind Soul Sessions and join us next week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life through with Creative Mind Soul Sessions. See you next time.