Loading summary
Transcript227 lines
- [00:00]
Amanda Montel
The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
- [00:12]
Morgan Book
When you guys had referenced Booktok as a cult, I was like, not a cult. And then I like sat back and thought about it and I was like, oh my God. When I first joined Booktok, I was dog earing the pages and apparently that's a big no no on Booktok.
- [00:24]
Reese Oliver
But they're your books.
- [00:25]
Morgan Book
This is why it's a cult, guys.
- [00:27]
Eamon
It's literally like the Hunger Games, but for like all these book people. I mean, I guess it's good for the publishing the author, you know, making some good money, but at what cost?
- [00:35]
Amanda Montel
You know, this is Sounds like a Cult. A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of the books Cultish and the Age of Magical Overthinking.
- [00:46]
Reese Oliver
And I'm Reese Oliver. Sounds Like a Cults coordinator and today's co host.
- [00:52]
Amanda Montel
Every week on this show we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture. From Harry Potter heads to to Van Lifers to try and answer the big question.
- [01:02]
Reese Oliver
This group sounds like a cult. But is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A Live youe Life, A Watch your Back or a Get the Fuck Out. The point of this podcast is to scrutinize and poke a wee bit of fun at how fanaticism and belonging to show up in everyday life, even in unexpected places, including one of the most seemingly innocent and wholesome pockets of all of our social media feeds, Booktok. Yes, the side of the TikTok algorithm that is dedicated to discussing books. The future of the Overall Church of TikTok hangs in the balance every single day. But as you will learn from today's episode, booktok culture honestly extends far beyond the app.
- [01:54]
Amanda Montel
Yes, indeed. If you are listening to and even enjoying this episode of the podcast and want to go deeper, I have a book recommendation for you. This is your host, Amanda, by the way, and the book is called the Age of Magical Overthinking. And I wrote it. I poured my heart into this book and I really think you might like it. It's about delusion and obsession in the information age and how the ways in which our minds naturally work are clashing with our current culture. Every chapter explores some confounding rationality from contemporary society, including extreme cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement, mass embrace of Instagram manifestation gurus during times of crisis, and why our bodies sometimes enter literal fight or flight in response to something as objectively non threatening as a curt email from a coworker. The book blends social science with pop culture analysis and personal stories. And if you prefer audiobooks, I recorded mine myself. So it's kind of like an extension of the podcast. Again, the book is called the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and it's available wherever books are sold, your local indie bookstore, bookshop.org, barnes & Noble, or even that one massive online book retailer run by a cult leader. You know the one. So if you enjoy this podcast, I really hope you'll consider checking out the book.
- [03:15]
Nordstrom Ad
Summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe, discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly and madewell. It's easy too, with free shipping and free returns in store, order pickup and more. Shop today in stores online@nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app on WhatsApp. No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone Now I.
- [04:14]
Amanda Montel
Feel like it's not that subversive of a statement at this point to claim that cults can emerge on TikTok. TikTok is, of course, a place where culty conflict and highly worshiped influencers and misinformation tend to thrive. But some listeners might be scratching their heads right now, tuning into this episode, thinking how could that possibly apply to a subject as cozy and quaint and innocuous as reading? And I will be honest, I had that question too. I certainly know from writing my book Cultish and from doing this show for so many years that a cult can spring up around literally anything from essential oils to Trader Joe's products. But as I am personally not in the cult of TikTok at all, when we started getting a ton of requests to cover the Cult of Booktok a few months ago, my first reaction was like, what does that even mean? I am vaguely aware that there are a lot of passionate fans of the Romantasy and YA genres on TikTok specifically. But beyond that, I am actually not at all sure what shape this cult takes, but I am excited and I shan't lie, little afraid to learn more. Rhys, what's your TikTok user status these days?
- [05:24]
Reese Oliver
Honestly, most of my relationship with TikTok is trying to use it less. I really want to beat the system, so I've deleted the app. I only go on it online. I have dabbled a wee bit in BookTok just because I feel like using TikTok for books feels constructive on its face. Right. Like I'm using TikTok to engage in a non screen related hobby. There's like a few very niche litfic book talk girlies that I enjoy, but they are very much the exemption and not the rule.
- [05:54]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, I want to state up front that I guess part of what intimidates me about TikTok is just that my impression of it as an outsider is that it is also fast paced and reactive. And what I love about reading is that it is so slow and it is an invitation to think a little bit more deliberatively and critically. And TikTok invites the opposite. So that clash feels wrong. We've scrutinized a lot of different types of influencers who traffic in counterintuitive territory, like Instagram therapists and various religious influencers who use these platforms almost as a missionary site. And I don't know, like, I love that people are reading more. I've read about how Barnes and Noble is opening up dozens more locations because of BookTok. It's like keeping this dinosaur industry that I care about so much and that my livelihood depends on as an author alive. And that's, that's the positive side of what cult tactics can do, right?
- [06:54]
Reese Oliver
Yes.
- [06:55]
Amanda Montel
They disrupt. They rally people around a collective mission. They provide something to do to feel less alone, you know, And I'm genuinely tickled that this cult energy has made its way to books. I know that booktok really put the Romantasy, AKA romance plus fantasy genre on the map. I have never in my life heard people talk about books as fanatically as young women talk about the work of authors like Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros. And at the same time, I feel skeptical that booktok is even really about reading.
- [07:29]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, again, from an outsider's perspective, it feels very performative because it is literally like, look at me reading.
- [07:37]
Amanda Montel
I hadn't considered that. Like, to me I'm just like, oh, I'm afraid that people are talking shit about books, that they might not even have engaged with that critically in order to like capture attention. But you're like, no. When people are taking a video of themselves reading, they're like not even internalizing words.
- [07:56]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. It just feels to me like it's more what books look the prettiest in my bag this week? What do I want to be seen reading in my photo dump on my Instagram? And like, I might be zooming out a little bit from BookTok, but it's hard not to zoom out because BookTok has grown into something so much more than just a destination to bond over books. As our listeners have pointed out, it has turned into something of a cult, complete with rituals. There's aesthetics, there's different sects based on genre, even thought control and power dynamics. To analyze this cult, we are going to talk to two completely different book talkers in two completely different conversations today who are at once leaders and followers of this cult. Ms. Morgan Book. Yes, that is her name. Yes, I am very jealous. And then be sure to stick around for our juicy culty analysis with Eamon of Eamon's books. But for now, here's Morgan.
- [08:57]
Amanda Montel
Morgan, welcome to Sounds like a Cult.
- [09:00]
Morgan Book
I'm so happy to be here and talking about books.
- [09:04]
Amanda Montel
Are we going to be talking about books? I don't know. I'm so ignorant. But we'll get into that before all. Could you just introduce yourself to the culties and share a little bit about your relationship to the cult of book talk personally?
- [09:16]
Morgan Book
Absolutely. Hi guys, my name is Morgan Book. I'm like plugging my last name in there because no one ever believes that it's actually book. I actually started with like cake decorating content for a couple of years and then I made the switch over to BookTok in like 2021, 2022, when BookTok itself was like coming up. And ever since then I've just been on the app just talking about literally everything related to books.
- [09:38]
Amanda Montel
Cake decorating, that might be the one thing that would get me on the platform.
- [09:42]
Reese Oliver
So for folks like Amanda who choose to live their life sense TikTok entirely and who are unacquainted with BookTok, how would you describe or explain what it is as a whole?
- [09:52]
Morgan Book
That's like asking a reader like to name their favorite book. It's hard to explain like what BookTok is because it encompasses so much in a one sentence thing. It's like an online community of readers. But like going beyond that. It's recommendations, it's reading vlogs, it's people sharing their love for books. And that's why I have so many books on my shelves, because they just come and go so quickly.
- [10:16]
Amanda Montel
Wait, what is a reading vlog?
- [10:18]
Eamon
Vlog?
- [10:18]
Morgan Book
A reading vlog is kind of like one of my favorite videos to watch. From start to finish. The creator takes their audience to the bookstore to pick up the book and then kind of vlogs the reading of the book.
- [10:31]
Amanda Montel
Okay, so it's almost like live tweeting the cliff Notes of Honestly, A Court.
- [10:38]
Morgan Book
Of Bones and Roses. It's pretty much like that. Like, you kind of just like, take short clips throughout reading the book. And as some. Like, if I've already read the book, I love watching those videos because it's like complete spoilers. I can kind of see their reactions going through the book because I know what's coming. The audience will often know what's coming, while the book talker, the creator, is kind of just like living in the moment of reading the book, and we all get to experience it again.
- [11:02]
Amanda Montel
Ah, okay. So to summarize, so far, we have the online shopping, sort of consumerist aspect of Booktok. That's like someone else has XYZ book. I need to get it too, to be a part of this group. I need to keep up. I need to have that perfect book talk collection. And then you have the sort of communal aspect where through watching someone else's reading experience, you get to feel uncannily connected to them. And this also confirms something that I find to be generally culty about the Internet. I mean, this is a slightly cynical way of putting it, but I find that people don't always want to learn something new. They just want to be told something they already know in, like, a really beautiful way.
- [11:43]
Morgan Book
Yep, that's what booktok is. Because we see these books all the time. We don't want to be told to read them if we can see someone else experiencing the book sold.
- [11:52]
Amanda Montel
Who were you as a reader before Booktok? And then how did the cult transform you?
- [11:58]
Morgan Book
I asked myself the same question. It's not an addiction, but it is. I can't go to the bookstore and buy a book if I have not seen that book on social media.
- [12:07]
Reese Oliver
Are you just not drawn to books otherwise?
- [12:10]
Amanda Montel
I think I understand, and I think it has to do with the cult aspect. Booktok is first and foremost a community. It's not a book recommendation service. It's a book connection community. And so if you were to read a book that is outside of that community, it would give you nothing to Talk to people about it would give you no connective tissue. And that's very interesting. Everyone reads for different reasons. Some people read to learn, some people read to escape, Some people read to connect. And like, so far, that's what I'm understanding of Booktok.
- [12:39]
Morgan Book
Yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying about reading something outside of Booktok is, like, kind of weird, but it also goes back to being a cult. Some people will come on this app and be like, I know you've never heard of this book before, or this is not a Booktok book, or I randomly started reading this one and I know you've never seen it before, but you have to read it. That is how books will often come into Booktok. Like, I remember last year there was like a massive uptake in this book called Butcher and Blackbird by Bryn Weaver. No one had ever seen this book. The dark romance genre wasn't massive on booktok and a couple creators talked about this book very briefly and it blew up. I feel like that happens a lot more lately. A couple people talk about them. The book blows up and it's on, like, bestseller list now.
- [13:21]
Amanda Montel
That is one thing that I really, really value is that a book that has not been blessed by the publishing, that has not had a ton of resources from the marketing department or whatever poured into it, can enjoy a new life because of BookTok. That is very cool and grassrootsy in a way that a cult should be at its best.
- [13:40]
Morgan Book
Honestly, like, I love reading books. I'm not saying I'm sick of Booktok books, but I love when an indie author's book or like a debut novel gets picked up by the BookTok algorithm and it just goes viral.
- [13:52]
Reese Oliver
Okay, just to back up for a second, when you noted that dark romance hadn't really picked up on booktok yet, that really contextualized for me the timeline of Booktok and how it has come into the public perception. We had never gotten any requests for this topic until a few months ago, and now it feels like literally every day someone is sliding in our Instagram DMs being like, oh, my God, Booktok is such a cult. Please talk about the dark fantasy section of Booktok. All the dark romance. It's so crazy. Why do you think that is? Like, where in that timeline was the shift from casual book community to, like, full blown cult?
- [14:30]
Morgan Book
When you guys had referenced Booktok as a cult? I was like, not a cult. And then I, like sat back and thought about it and I was like, oh, my God, you get a couple creators on there saying, read this one book, everyone does it. You will have some creators pull one quote the first line in a book and they're like, go read this book. And people will. Over the last year or so, this new term romantasy has been coined, which I've never heard that word before a year ago and nor had I ever use that word. But it's been around for a while. Like Acotar and Throne of Glass are books that have been around for six, seven years now and was always referred to as like a fantasy with a romance subplot. It's kind of a mouthful sometimes. And now whoever the heck came up with Romantasy, everyone's like, love it, love it, love it, love it. And acotar is not a word, it's so well known. But the series is called A Court of Thorns and Roses. So I think over the last year this like Romantasy dark romance fantasy has provided such a good escape from the real world. And they're just fun books like the one I had mentioned before, Butcher and Blackbird is about these two serial killers who fall in love. If that isn't just like pure silly escapism, but like written very well, I don't know what is. So I think books like that that just provide this massive escape from the real world and are just fun to read is what created this uptake in that genre, escaping from the real world.
- [15:45]
Amanda Montel
I mean, if that's not a cult motive, I don't know. It is.
- [15:49]
Reese Oliver
So I'm hearing Acotar, I'm hearing Throne of Glass. These are names that I heard thrown around the halls of my high school. Can you sort of give us, would you say top top five key texts or like beginners required reading to join BookTok?
- [16:01]
Morgan Book
Yes. Number one is A Court of Thorns and Roses. Number two is Any Emily Henry book. My personal favorite is Funny Story, which is her most recent release. Number three, I would say Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo. That is early booktok popular young adult fantasy, Found Family. All of that four would be the Chestnut Spring series by Elsie Silver. This is like small town romance, cowboys, bull riding, stuff like that that blew up on BookTok also a couple years ago. And then number five, I would say probably the Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller. That's like the historical fiction, fantasy romance tearjerker book that everyone seems to be talking about.
- [16:45]
Angie Ad
Let's talk about Angie. Anyone who owns a home knows how much work it takes. Whether you're dealing with daily maintenance, emergency fixes or even a dream renovation it is so hard to find the right and luckily, Angie's been connecting people with skilled pros for 30 years. And they've made it easier than ever to get your home projects done well, because Angie gives you access to a nationwide network of tradespeople with the right skills, Experts in over 50 categories, from plumbing and landscaping to roofing and remodels. Just bring Angie your project, answer a few questions, and Angie connects you with nearby pros who match your needs. You can easily read reviews, check out photos of past work, and request and compare quotes and to find your best price. Which means you could tackle that next home project in just a few taps. So join the millions of homeowners who use Angie to care for their homes. Download the free Angie app today or visit angie.com that's a n g I dot com. Let's talk about Angie. Anyone who owns a home knows how much work it takes. Whether you're dealing with daily maintenance, emergency fixes, or even a dream renovation, it is so hard to find the right help. And luckily, Angie's been connecting people with skilled pros for 30 years, and they've made it easier than ever to get your home projects done well, because Angie gives you access to a nationwide network of tradespeople with the right skills, Experts in over 50 categories, from plumbing and landscaping to roofing and remodels. Just bring Angie your project, answer a few questions, and Angie connects you with nearby pros who match your needs. You can easily read reviews, check out photos of past work, and request and compare quotes to find your best price. Which means you could tackle tackle that next home project in just a few taps. So join the millions of homeowners who use Angie to care for their homes. Download the free Angie app today or visit angie.com that's a n g I.com.
- [18:47]
Amanda Montel
So obviously TikTok is an algorithm based platform more than any other social media. And that can lead you to believe that your specific algorithm is the whole world. And that can kind of psychologically isolate a person a tiny bit, you know? Extremely so, because I see your passion and how badly you want us to join you. And I imagine some of that must come from this experience where you're like, what do you mean you're not on booktok? Because if you're on TikTok and that is your algorithm, then that must feel like the whole entire world. And if someone's not on it, then they don't exist. But I am interested in how this community organizes itself because it is algorithm based. It is on Our phones disembodied. Maybe there are Booktok conventions. I'm not sure. But I was wondering, could you explain, is Booktok a sort of diverse cult of many denominations? How is it organized, this cult?
- [19:44]
Morgan Book
Okay, first of all, we do have book conventions. I have never gone to one. We don't have many in Canada, so they're all in the US So I haven't made the trip yet. Organization wise, I would say yes, there are different pockets of Booktokers. I would say the main hub is the fantasy, romantasy, romance genres. Like, I feel like that is what Booktok is at its core. When you go to Indigo, when you go to Barnes and Noble, you see all the romantasy. Those are what holds us together. I would say there is little pockets of thriller book talkers, which I'm like, slowly trying to, like, dip my toes into them and figure out nothing compares to a dark thriller. They freak me out sometimes. I would say it goes by genre and then it also somewhat goes by age. I would say, like, most booktokers are in their 20s and 30s. And then anything beyond that, like, my mom will show me these book talkers that, that she loves and I was like, never seen them before. So you're so right in saying that we have different algorithms for different books.
- [20:40]
Amanda Montel
It is fascinating to me because it is just like, so different from the way that I read and so, so passionate. I don't want to suggest that, like.
- [20:51]
Reese Oliver
It'S the wrong way to enjoy reading or books or share.
- [20:54]
Amanda Montel
Exactly. Like when a community provides a sort of new, fringy way of doing something old just like this, that might be culty and it might disturb some people. Sure. But I want to clarify that I don't think that necessarily makes something bad.
- [21:10]
Morgan Book
Ah, yes.
- [21:11]
Amanda Montel
But I guess I do want to keep kind of prodding to understand what the cultification of Booktok says about what those who participate in it are seeking, if that makes sense. So, like, has Booktok gotten cultier because people are looking for a cure for their loneliness? Is it a bid for identity? Like, what do you think, Morgan?
- [21:30]
Morgan Book
Yeah, I would say the uptake in book talk comes from inputting personality into book recommendations. Like, you mentioned the New York Times list. I've never looked at that list a day in my life. I'm not looking at any other books on that list because it doesn't often mean anything to me or I don't want to speak for all readers, but I don't really know anyone who's checking out the New York Times list. Anymore. Their book recommendations and what we read comes directly from book talk because you're getting people's real opinions on these books. Which is why I think sometimes publisher social medias don't do well because they're saying read all of these books. Whereas book talkers and creators will tell you which books to read and why and which ones not to read because they didn't like them. And if you can find a creator where your reading tastes directly align, you'll read every book that they put out.
- [22:15]
Amanda Montel
Oh my God. If I could find a book talker whose reading tastes directly aligned with mine, like, I would be down. I just, I'm starting to feel like that's not a thing.
- [22:24]
Morgan Book
I'll find you one.
- [22:24]
Reese Oliver
That's what I was telling Morgan when you stepped out of the room. The corner of TikTok that I was on that most resembled BookTok when I was on it was somewhat of like a lit fakey side of booktok that I feel like it's still the same ideas of people connecting over books and like sharing these recommendations.
- [22:40]
Amanda Montel
I don't know. I mean, it's just there's something about the conformist hype machine surrounding something that I cherish and let's be frank, like as an author, I'm just like afraid of it. So the fact that there is like so much energy and so many strong opinions and that a book could be uplifted or disgraced so quickly within like a 30 second video, it makes me nervous. It makes me feel nervous.
- [23:10]
Morgan Book
It is rough out there for you being an author. I actually don't blame you for not being on TikTok because it's brutal. If I don't like a book, I'm not going to post about it. But some people throw these books into the mud on booktok. I feel bad because it's not even often they're like bashing the writer's talents. It's just like they didn't like a character, they didn't like a story or something.
- [23:29]
Amanda Montel
I read books all the time that I don't care for and I just put them to the side dnf them as they say in this, in this call. I dnf them. That means did not finish and I forget about them and I don't feel the need to express my opinion about them. But I get guess this connects to our next question. Like I'm a little skeptical of who the leaders of booktok might be. Who are these people in your opinion? What are their motivations? Do they really read every book that they review.
- [24:01]
Morgan Book
Good question. Literally, like, if they can pack a punch with their video and with their content and what they're saying about the book, they'll probably rise to the top. Like, if they're showing a lot of emotion in what they're reading and they're diversifying their content in the sense that they're not just doing book recommendations, they're doing. Doing everything. They're reading you one quote in the middle of a book, they're doing a reading vlog, they're taking you to the bookstore. They're showing any and everything they can about a book, and they're expressing true, genuine emotion. I find that on TikTok these days, it's very easy to spot an ad, which is kind of a gray area when it comes to books, because you're like, are you being paid to talk about liking this book, or did you actually like it? So you can fish through the hashtags. If there's like a hashtag partner, like, you kind of know sometimes, and you find the genuine creators who, you know, if they've talked about this often before and now they're promoting a new book, you're like, okay, they actually probably liked it. But if they've never talked about this genre before, like, you can kind of poke holes into what people are being genuine with or not.
- [24:59]
Amanda Montel
Okay. We made this comparison in a recent episode about the cult of Harry Potter.
- [25:03]
Reese Oliver
Ah.
- [25:04]
Amanda Montel
But it's like, what is Christianity other than just, like a really, really, really old book club? It's just like, people are still talking about the Bible. Holy shit. And in that same way, booktok feels like a religion. It's just a lot of people talking very passionately about books. But famously, a lot of followers of Christianity don't even read the Bible or scrutinize it that carefully. And maybe this is my bias, by the way. Like, as I said in the beginning, I'm telling you, like, I fear it and I honor it. Like, the ocean. Like, I don't want to go near it, but I'm glad it's there.
- [25:41]
Morgan Book
Yeah, you can admire it from the distance. That's totally fine.
- [25:44]
Amanda Montel
I do. But then at the same time, I'm a little like, oh, I don't know. Do you think that there are ever people who just want to be famous book talkers for reasons other than the love of books?
- [25:54]
Morgan Book
Maybe, but that takes a lot of effort to, like, know what these books are about and talk about them. I feel like you have to read them.
- [26:01]
Amanda Montel
Rhys, what do you think you've treaded up close to this. But what do you think?
- [26:04]
Reese Oliver
I don't know. I mean I think a lot of people find engaging with the book and a communal sense more attractive than engaging with the literature, which is kind of what you were saying earlier. And to that end I think sure, I could totally see someone liking a book for like how well can I cosplay its characters, what TikTok sounds align with what tropes go on in these books. I think the tropification of literature is also a huge contributor to what makes BookTok feel inauthentic at times to me because it turns into people reading books in order to categorize them and kind of manually sort them into an algorithm as opposed to really get anything from the book itself. So I, I wouldn't say that I don't think people are reading them. I think people are looking at the words and taking them in, but I don't know if people are reading.
- [26:49]
Amanda Montel
Okay, okay, that's helpful. And Morgan, feel free to disagree. The whole point of this podcast is to like over dramatize things like we're half kidding. Truly my most genuine thought is just I love that people are reading. People have been warning me that the publishing industry and books are like on death's door. And if this exists and this is keeping books alive, huge slay love. But it is a sign of the times that booktok is kind of just like another one of these modern day cults that is at times perhaps less about the thing itself and more about what the symbol of that thing says about you and how it can make you feel less alone in the world. And that doesn't necessarily have to be bad. It's just not the reason why I engage with books.
- [27:35]
Morgan Book
I see both sides and as you were guys were talking about reading just to be famous. It's more what I see that ruffles Booktok's feathers is already famous. People picking up a book. It's a very polarizing topic in the sense that half the comments are like welcome to Booktok. Read this and read this and read this. And the other people not necessarily commenting but like stitching and they're like this person is trying to be a book talker. This person is like not a reader. They're just picking up ac. So acotar. Also very polarizing. Some people loved it, some people hated it.
- [28:08]
Reese Oliver
She's a whole cult leader in her own right.
- [28:10]
Morgan Book
So I've heard you guys aren't going to read these books. Can I spoil little something?
- [28:14]
Eamon
Yeah.
- [28:15]
Morgan Book
Okay, so she's got Acotar. She's got Throne of Glass and she's got Crescent City.
- [28:20]
Amanda Montel
The author, Sarah J. Maas, that is.
- [28:22]
Morgan Book
Yes. I think with the rise of the popularity of Acotar, she was like, okay, how can I do something else with this? So she created a multiverse in Crescent City, which is our newest series, to allow Acotar characters to come into that one. Because the people who have just read Acotar will go pick up Crescent City just because they know they can have their favorite characters again in that series. Because we haven't gotten a new book.
- [28:46]
Amanda Montel
This woman could start Scientology 2.0 easily.
- [28:49]
Morgan Book
And I don't know how I dodged so many spoilers, but I knew something was coming at the end of book two in the Crescent City series. And I got to the end and I was like, yes, I'm shocked. But I'm also like, what a brilliant marketing move to do that. So then people can go read these other books.
- [29:04]
Amanda Montel
What are some rituals that booktokers engage in that someone who reads and loves to books but is not involved with booktok would never even know about? Like, are there things that booktalkers say or do as a result of the actual features of the app that may, like, affect your reading experience or stuff like that?
- [29:28]
Morgan Book
Okay, really good question. I would say the first thing that comes to mind is some creators will go live just to read. Not a single word is said on the live, but they prop up their phone and they read, and it kind of creates this, like, virtual book club of, like, some people reading the same book and other other people reading different books. I've never done it myself, but I have joined other people just to, like, check it out and see what they're doing. Things like that are directly caused because of the app, though I would say little things. Like, when I first joined booktok, I was dog earring the pages and apparently this big no, no on Booktok.
- [30:01]
Amanda Montel
Okay. Why?
- [30:02]
Morgan Book
Oh, because it ruins the book, apparently. So have I dog eared a page since? No, but they're your books. This is why it's a cult, guys.
- [30:09]
Reese Oliver
This is why it's a cult. Don't let the Internet tell you what to do with your books. No, I'm sad.
- [30:15]
Morgan Book
It's so bad. Like, sometimes I do it just to, like, mess with them a little bit. Just to rebel also because, like, I know people will comment about it. People comment about something they hate. Brings up the engagement, obviously.
- [30:27]
Amanda Montel
Here we go.
- [30:28]
Reese Oliver
Scenting for engagement. That's culty.
- [30:32]
Morgan Book
People just like things a certain way. You're not allowed to hold a book like this. You're not allowed to break the spine. You can't dog your pages. This is like, not actual rules, but these are things that I've seen on booktok where people are like, no, not allowed.
- [30:44]
Amanda Montel
Well, that's what a rule is in a cult. It's an unspoken.
- [30:48]
Eamon
Oh, my God.
- [30:48]
Morgan Book
Oh, my God.
- [30:50]
Amanda Montel
And I wonder about your opinion on this, Morgan. Like, I love books so much, but when I read a book and I love it, that feels like a very precious, private thing. And when another person loves that thing, it's cool at first, and then I almost feel, like, protective of it because I don't even want to know what they think about the book because I don't want it to interfere with. With my experience. Right. And I wonder if what you were talking about before, like, sort of doing these, like, edge lordy things on BookTok for engagement purposes. Do you think that the very nature of trying to capture people's attention with these various tactics on booktok has made people more fanatical and culty and, like, opinionated and ritualistic, et cetera, about their reading habits in general? People who use books talk.
- [31:42]
Morgan Book
That is, I would say so, yes. I would say when it comes to, like, comments and opinions, though, people are still way meaner on Instagram and Facebook. Instagram is just like, more hatred towards, like, even authors and stuff. Like, I've talked to so many authors where they're like, I can't even look at my comments, can't look at my DMs, like, nothing. So I would say in, like, more of the booktok sense, I think people are a little bit nicer when it comes to their thoughts and opinions, but I think it ultimately depends on, like, what book they're talking about.
- [32:08]
Reese Oliver
Morgan, thank you so much for giving us the lowdown about Book Talk. Now that our American listeners can once again find you on TikTok at what handle can they do so and where else can they find you?
- [32:19]
Morgan Book
My handle is Oreganbook. Everywhere it's Morgan with two N on everything. Incredible.
- [32:33]
Angie Ad
Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints and everywhere in between.
- [32:41]
Amanda Montel
So no matter where you go in.
- [32:43]
Eamon
Every bar, you'll always know someone by name.
- [32:47]
Morgan Book
Jack Jack and Coke shot at Jack.
- [32:50]
Nordstrom Ad
Jack Daniels, please.
- [32:51]
Amanda Montel
Right away. That's what makes Jack Jack.
- [32:54]
Eamon
Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey 40 alcohol by volume 80 proof.
- [33:03]
Amanda Montel
With the Venmo debit card, you can venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show.
- [33:08]
Eamon
You can Venmo that.
- [33:09]
Amanda Montel
Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by Mastercard International Incorporated card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.
- [33:19]
Reese Oliver
So we have already gotten some baseline info about the Cult of Booktok more generally. But to get more tea we would love to introduce Amen of Eamon's Books. Welcome. Amen.
- [33:31]
Eamon
Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
- [33:33]
Reese Oliver
Thank you for joining. Joining us. Could you introduce yourself and share the story of how you became entangled in the Cult of Booktok in the first place?
- [33:41]
Eamon
Oh my gosh. There's like so much to unpack here, but I'll keep it brief. Obviously I do like book content. I like joins when everybody started doing content creation, you know, quarantine, 2020, boredom at home, all the time on my hands. And then I just like fell back into reading because I found this community. And back then what that community looked like on TikTok versus what it is now is totally different. People didn't even know what to call the book community. Booktok came like later in the year, but I was there since there's just like a couple girlies here and there just talking about books. And then I think later in like August of 2020, I started like making content to entertain myself. Then, you know, the quote unquote, one viral video later and got a platform. The rest is history. And we're here today.
- [34:19]
Amanda Montel
Can you just tell the culties what that one viral video was?
- [34:22]
Eamon
Oh my gosh. Okay, so I forgot the creator who I duetted, but he had said something along the lines of like, oh my God, reading is weird or it's not cool. Like something along the lines of that. And then I like duetted it. I was like, oh my God, reading is like a movie in your effing head. And like slapping a book on the camera of my phone. It's the most cringiest thing ever. But it got over like a million views. Looking back at it now, it's like, why was I even yelling at this guy? Like, but I mean, it worked out. The first video, I hardly think about it because I look back at it and I'm like, okay, yeah, it got me like out there, but I can't even look at it. It's a bit too much.
- [34:58]
Amanda Montel
No one relates more than There are some videos of me on the Internet.
- [35:01]
Eamon
Oh, I want to die.
- [35:04]
Amanda Montel
But you are very funny, Eamonn. I have come across your videos on Instagram. Forgive me, but there's this one video you have where you're like my pretentious ass reading alone at a bar or whatever.
- [35:15]
Eamon
Oh my God.
- [35:16]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, I've shared that with so many people. So you're really representing the girlies.
- [35:20]
Eamon
I love that. That is me to a T. Like I am that type of person that is bringing the book with me literally everywhere I go. It's quite annoying.
- [35:26]
Amanda Montel
Oh Reese. I were joking about it. I was like my favorite emotion is smug. Like anything that helps me along this journey. Reading lit fake alone at a bar.
- [35:35]
Eamon
I like that I could be doing coke. Exactly. Like this is my drug of choice.
- [35:39]
Amanda Montel
Yes, exactly, exactly. So getting into some of the more culty aspects of Booktok, could you recall a specific instance from your personal experience of this cult as being culty in a good way? Some moment where either you or someone else really transcended in some capacity? Thanks to Booktok.
- [35:57]
Eamon
Okay, this is the first thing that comes to mind. So yesterday Onyx Storm released and from Rebecca Yarros, which is like the number one book of this year. Everybody's been anticipating it and so Target did an exclusive edition only available on that day. It was kind of like the Taylor Swift book moment but for obviously the book community. So the lines were wrapping around the targets. They I think had 14 of them on release day which is crazy because there's like 100 plus people in line. The Target that I went to is in the middle of nowhere. Nowhere. Why are people there? Target opens at 8. I was there like 7:45. There was like 40 people online for this book. It's a special edition, so it's exclusive. There's limited quality but I think it goes to show how culty I guess Booktok is because we come together for things like this. Like special books on the release day can't be pre ordered. It is. It's literally like the Hunger Games but for like all these book people. So like in a way, I mean, I guess it's good for like the publishing industry. The author, you know, making some good money. Love that for her. But cost, you know.
- [36:55]
Amanda Montel
Well, I was gonna say, I mean people lining up early in the morning like this, I'm obviously familiar with that behavior in the context of like Harry Potter. But the book that you just named, I've never heard of it.
- [37:06]
Reese Oliver
I saw Morgan's story about it yesterday actually.
- [37:09]
Eamon
I love Morgan book. Oh my gosh, what a queen. But they did like a midnight release for it, like they did with like Harry Potter back in the day. And apparently that hasn't been a thing since Harry Potter. They do it for like the biggest authors that are coming out with their latest release. You know, for example, yesterday was for Rebecca Riaros who wrote Fourth Wing, which is like this romantic fantasy series that has blown up. Onyx Storm is a third one and people are reselling them for crazy prices as well. So this is like a moment where booktok has like come together and we've just gone crazy for this one book and it's not that different from the original one. Maybe the design on one side is a little different, like the spine and there's like a sprayed edge. And like, I think there's also art within the book. To an outsider looking in, everyone's like, okay, well what's the reason to line up hours before the store opened? Whatever. But to the people that get it, they know this is like once in a lifetime, limited opportunity. I gotta get it before somebody else. So, like, I applaud the book community for sticking to our love for books when it comes to things like this.
- [38:04]
Amanda Montel
Okay. This is all very Swifty coded.
- [38:07]
Eamon
No, it really is though. I compare a lot of books to like Taylor Swift lyrics. And I am a personal, like Swifty myself. You know, I was there Chicago Night 3. I also write in my books. Some people think that's illegal, but whatever. And I usually write song lyrics and they're nine times out of ten Taylor Swift lyrics or Gracie Abrams lyrics or something like that. Anything that I can associate with Taylor Swift because I think she's written basically about me in all her lyrics, I relate to everything that she says.
- [38:34]
Amanda Montel
You've stood in the kitchen in refrigerator light.
- [38:37]
Eamon
Yeah, I did. With my book in hand.
- [38:39]
Reese Oliver
Wait, sorry, I have to ask. And there are Booktok books that are based on the Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce love story. Now are there not? So a whole culty crossover happening?
- [38:49]
Eamon
That's why I'm saying it's like a direct pipeline. Because I did see something along the lines of authors coming out with pop star and football romance.
- [38:56]
Reese Oliver
You know, it's just fanfiction.
- [38:58]
Eamon
It's literally fanfiction. That's what it is. And what's impressive about it is like they come out with it like instantly. Like, we're done books out, you can read it.
- [39:05]
Amanda Montel
Everything that you're describing, it's tailor coded and it's Rae Dunn coded because it's like girlies with a lot of feelings and a lot of passions who are just exercising that in an ever lonely era through a community that they discovered online. This line for Rebecca Yaros's book is the Eras tour for booktok. It sounds like, oh, absolutely.
- [39:25]
Eamon
We're like a force to be reckoned with, you know what I'm saying? Like, my good time is literally just sitting in that bed reading a book. You wouldn't expect us to have this much energy and be dedicated to the things that we love. But like, yeah, you know, we have so much power.
- [39:37]
Reese Oliver
You could turn it out.
- [39:38]
Amanda Montel
Yes, but then it's like you said the phrase earlier, at what cost?
- [39:43]
Eamon
So.
- [39:43]
Amanda Montel
Have you ever noticed BookTube Talk take a turn for the culty in like a negative way?
- [39:48]
Eamon
Yeah, absolutely. Like I've been in this community since like the very beginning, so I feel like I've seen everything and anything new that happens, I'm like, okay, I'm not that surprised by it because I'm like desensitized. You wouldn't think that this community can be aggressive or problematic in some ways or this or that. Overall, I think it's a great community. We're mostly a group of like women celebrating our love for reading and everything like that. But we do have our moments where some people in our community cross the line and can't differentiate a reality versus fiction. And the prime example that I see through that is when, for example, example there's a popular book and people start to fan cast real people, like either models or actors or literally TikTok influencers and that line is crossed from their boundaries versus like reality versus fiction. They are not that character. You might have fan casted them as so and so character in whatever book, but at the end of the day you shouldn't be in their comment section harassing them, you know, asking them for making provocative videos, stuff like that. Because at the end of the day we're reading about fictional characters in a fictional world in a fictional sense and that's a real person. So I've seen that boundary, that line crossed multiple times. And I'm not just saying it's the reader's problem. Sometimes it's even the person that's been fan casted not respecting the reader space or something like that. Because honestly the space is mostly women. And a lot of times the people that are fan casted for these characters are guys, like hot people on the Internet, if I'm gonna be honest. And sometimes like, okay, if you're getting all this attention from women Be respectful. Obviously, like if anybody's not respecting you, draw your boundaries, you know, make it clear and everything like that. But like, even as of recently, I've seen some people that have been fan casted for X, Y and Z characters just like hate on this community. But also they benefit from it too. Like they only like it when it's good for them and then hate it when they want to make fun of it. So it's like, do you even take this space seriously? We have transformed book publishing industry, authors, lives and stuff like that. And I feel like men at the most part, but like everyone altogether obviously need to fully understand that.
- [41:38]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, for sure. And just to clarify, for the less chronically unlike line, to be fan cast is quite a big deal. It is essentially when the fans of a certain piece of written media designate you as what some would call a face claim or the physical representation of said character. Eamon, could you give an example?
- [41:59]
Eamon
I don't know their names, but I can recognize their faces when I see them. Like on my for you page, for example, there's this book series, it's called the Devil's Night series by Penelope Douglas. And it's like this dark, dark romance series. It follows these four group of guys and the quote unquote official fan cast for them are like just these tiktokers. I think they're models as well. So like literally their face is like everywhere. Right.
- [42:20]
Reese Oliver
Like the cult has decided that these boys are these characters.
- [42:24]
Eamon
Yeah. And recently I saw them kind of dogging on the community and said, we hate book talk, this and that, blah blah, blah, on a live stream that they were on. But then they'll hold the actual book up in their videos and make thirst traps about it. So it's like, okay, you hate, hate us just to hate us, but you still use us for reviews. So that's where I'm like, this is not cute anymore. We're gonna have to switch over the fan cast to get somebody new.
- [42:44]
Amanda Montel
Okay, I have a question. I have a question. Obviously most of this hype and fanaticism is surrounding genre books, this dark fantasy genre. Characters and worlds that are not of reality. And some of these behaviors also seem not of reality. It's hard for me to imagine lovers of like, I don't know, history books engaging in this type of behavior. And I'm just curious if you could talk a little bit about the relationship between the genre itself and like the content of the literature itself and some of this kayfabe.
- [43:24]
Eamon
Oh my gosh, no. Yeah, that's Like a lot to unpack as well. But obviously at the forefront of Booktok it is mostly romance. But that does not just go to show that that's the only genre and community that can exist on booktok. Like I personally really love fantasy and thrillers and even the occasional memoir, non fictional books, this and that, blah blah blah. I like to keep my palette pretty diverse even though I mostly read romance. From an outsider looking in, obviously this community just looks very romance oriented. But just when you really get into it and if you've been in it as long as I have, you see that there's a little bit of everything. Every genre has people that create content for it, if that makes sense. A lot of people think, okay, if you read Roman romance, you're considered dumb or blah blah blah. But that's obviously not true. It's the highest read genre, most successful genre of all time. So it's a place to be taken seriously. Right. So this argument, I guess has created the argument of anti intellectualism within booktok or kind of like the opposite of that, like pro intellectualism. I'm kind of in between because I do love books that make me think beyond myself, make me think about life and everything like that. And that could be in any genre. I feel like even romance in itself can create a lot of great conversations. And it just goes to show that every genre needs to be appreciated. There is room for everyone in this community and just respect everything and everyone.
- [44:40]
Amanda Montel
Oh, fully, fully, fully. I want to clarify one thing when I make this comment that I wonder if the genre of fantasy or romance or whatever gives way to more culty behavior on booktok. I don't mean that as a negative judgment about the minds of people who read fantasy. I'm almost saying it from a perspective of fantasy inherently and romance inherently because they are fictional. Genres give you so much more to play with. So I'm writing fiction now and I've only ever written nonfiction in the past and it has already made me lean into my like delulu girly alter ego where like I think my characters are real, I'm fan casting them in my head I'm like living in this fantasy world that is frankly so much more fun.
- [45:23]
Eamon
It truly is at the end of the day. Like fiction till I ride or die. Like it's always going to be my top for me. Fictional story settings, fantasy, romance, whatever. Creating this whole world in your head. And it's like quite endless too. It's not just like these defined corners and these blank characters. They're characters with layers and feelings. It's so fun creating literally these movies in your head.
- [45:42]
Amanda Montel
I think where it gets culty is not the book or the genre side of it, it's the talk. Yeah, it's the sort of like when you fan cast someone and it goes from your head to a comment section. And now the parasociality of it. We've really crossed into event horizon.
- [46:02]
Eamon
Some people think that they know these people and then some of those fan casting people think that they know us. But you're so right. It's literally the talk. Obviously reading fiction books, we're escaping from reality, we're in our head. But then we get on the Internet, we talk about those books and make videos out of them and that's where it becomes reality, that's where it becomes talk, and that's where like our problems arise.
- [46:20]
Amanda Montel
Exactly, exactly. And I actually have a little counterpoint that can show that sometimes a nonfiction text on booktok can be even cultier than a fiction text. So we hinted at this earlier. I would love to talk about examples of booktok disrupting the publishing industry by transforming self published authors into bestsellers. Now one example that we found was the case of the Shadow Work Journal by Keela Shaheen. Have you heard of this book?
- [46:49]
Eamon
Tell me more about it because it sounds familiar.
- [46:51]
Amanda Montel
So basically the book publicist Scott Lorenz wrote this blog post about how booktoker Congle gushed about this book once on booktok, basically saying that it was this like spiritually healing work of genius. That's how they found the book. And as a result of this endorsement, the author sold almost 700,000 copies directly through TikTok shop. That's according to the New York Times.
- [47:12]
Eamon
Wow.
- [47:13]
Amanda Montel
It's like so beyond.
- [47:14]
Eamon
This is kind of sounding familiar.
- [47:16]
Amanda Montel
Apparently it was quite the hullabaloo. So commenting on what booktokers really are attracted to on this platform, Scott Lawrence said that users really want to see like genuine book endorsements that are extremely short and to the point. Which makes sense. That's the platform. But in this context it got a little sketchy. That's exactly what this endorsement by Cone Gle was. And on one hand, like, of course it's amazing how booktok overcomes some of the awful elitist gatekeeping that exists in the publishing industry that I fucking resent so much. And that frankly is the whole entire reason why I podcast. I podcast because I'm an author and like I want to reach more people. Right.
- [47:53]
Morgan Book
So hard.
- [47:54]
Eamon
Yeah.
- [47:54]
Amanda Montel
And so on one hand, like I, I absolutely love and I'm like, fuck, yeah, stick it to the man. That booktok can overcome this elitism. But on the other hand, we wonder if there aren't downsides to that disruption because for Business Insider reporter Julia Pugachevsky penned a piece titled I tried the viral shadow work journal, touted as a substitute for therapy. It was so bad that I couldn't finish. And she commented on how the author is not a licensed therapist. She made some other critiques, but because of the like, oh my God, bestie, you have to buy this book. It changed my life vibe on Booktok in these short format videos, many of the shadow work journals readers trusted it as a legitimate mental health resource. So my question for you is like, do you think that this sort of hype machine nature of booktok is negatively affecting people's ability to engage with literature critically?
- [48:44]
Eamon
Sometimes, yeah. That even reminds me of like, other examples that I've seen throughout booktok as a whole of it's kind of like wrongly shelving a book in a genre that it's not supposed to be in. You know what I'm saying? Like, I've seen that happen within some fictional books as well. For example, it's like a fantasy book and it's purely fantasy. There might be like a sliver of romance. And when I mean a sliver, I mean like, they probably glance at each other and then people hyper fixate on that and just forget the whole fantasy world and like everything that happens in there when really it's like, yo, this is a fantasy book. Let's talk about the actual main plot points of it and the world building, maybe the battle and the wars and whatever the heck happens in that book. Let's actually talk about that versus this little small detail because then it just takes away from the author's hard work as well, creating this world. And I see that with the example you just mentioned about the, the shadow journal. I see it happened with so many different genres, so many different kinds of books, so many books that are like, okay, you can tell this book is written for a certain community, like a marginalized community. And then people outside of that marginalized community don't respect it in the way that they talk about it within their videos and just take away from that essence that it's trying to portray. And I hate that, honestly, I hate when we miss genre things. I'm like, damn, you're making this look bad. Don't do this. Did you read the book?
- [49:58]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. I think TikTok both creates more distance and shrinks the distance between the reader and the author in this really interesting way that can like, muddy up the conversation in ways that I feel like might implore people to just discuss books in ways that are less accurate than we might like, but better for content creation. The tropification of books is something I.
- [50:24]
Eamon
See on TikTok a lot.
- [50:25]
Reese Oliver
Or like the overemphasis of specific tropes on specific books, I think contributes to this. And it leaves a lot more of fantasy getting pushed into the romance genre because, you know, there's a romantic plot line that's present and. And we can cling to that and spread it around circles where the book maybe doesn't belong. And I think along that same vein, TikTok has this huge obsession with Glow up and self improvement culture. And I think when you combine that with the cult of booktok, that distance works in a way that's beneficial to authors that might not be qualified in the realms that they're selling books in. You know, like, it works the other way too.
- [51:04]
Amanda Montel
Listening to you speak about that made me think, like, maybe that connects to this, like, super tight turnaround time that we were talking about, where authors are churning out books in a matter of weeks, months. I'm like, if half the point of booktok is to make videos and to make book content, then I can see how sometimes the polish of a book might get deprioritized.
- [51:28]
Eamon
Dim. Yeah, it's like it's not as valuable anymore. More.
- [51:31]
Amanda Montel
Booktok is like almost its own world.
- [51:34]
Eamon
It truly is.
- [51:35]
Reese Oliver
So we have been talking about the ways in which people discuss these books and how that can contribute to us interpreting them in ways that might not necessarily be a net good for people's engagement with literature as a whole. Do you think this applies to any kind of group think concerning opinions about books? Like, how is dissent received on booktok when someone has maybe an unpopular opinion? And do you think that the Book Booktok platform might like, deter people from developing those opinions about books that might be different from what the congregation is saying?
- [52:08]
Eamon
Right. I've seen people make compilation videos of their unpopular opinions when it comes to the entirety of booktok. And sometimes they're railed in those comments, or sometimes people are like, okay, wait, you actually made a fair point. And I'm like, okay, I like that part of booktok where we respect each other's opinions and stuff like that. Because that's like another issue within this community where we don't respect each other's opinions. Whether it be like our taste in books, what we like in certain books, and how we Perceive the book after reading it because at the end of the day, not every reader is the same. We're all unique in our own different ways. The way I read the same exact book you have and the way I take it in versus the way you do could be entirely different or totally the same, who knows? But that's like another way that people need to understand to respect those spaces and stuff because, like, I do have definitely some unpopular opinions when it comes to the whole book world and everything like that. And I'm like, wait, should I bite my tongue? Should I make a video about this? Do I want to cause turmoil on my page? I'm pretty peaceful for the most part, but like, I'll talk about it with my friends on facetime or something like that. And maybe some opinions need to be voiced and maybe some don't. Obviously you don't want to voice any harmful opinions that actually harms anyone, any group of people or anything like that. And there have been instances on Booktok where people will say something and then get that backlash and be like, hey, like, you don't want to say that. It sounds like this.
- [53:16]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. And I think booktok has the potential to do so much good in that capacity because like, obviously reading teaches you new things and if we're all learning new things and sharing these new things with each other, that's great. But I am interested in learning through more of a cult like lens how these topics are kind of chosen to circulate and what ideologies are circulating with them. So we wanted to ask you a little bit more about your perspective on the diversity of books that are chosen by Booktok and whether that's an issue that you see arise in the community and how that's being addressed. If it is.
- [53:50]
Eamon
Yeah. As a person that's been in this community for so long, I've seen how this community community has like transformed the book publishing industry, but also the way that readers read and the books that we choose to engage with and talk about and make content about. Like for me, prior to Booktok, I was literally only reading the popular books. And nine times out of 10 those were like, you know, white cis het straight books that were just popular. Maybe their movies were coming out this and that. And then when I got to Booktok, it was really when I diversified my reading and I read outside of the two genres that I really read and found books that like represented myself as like a hijabi woman or other community communities. Because I think like, fiction is so powerful in the sense of like, yes, this is fiction, it's a fictional world. But we can have such deep conversations in these books that pertain to real life. One of my favorite books of all time is the Legendborn series. And it follows this young black woman that's basically she finds out she has this magic and it's kind of like a King Arthur retelling. So she is like Arthur and she's surrounded by people not believing her. And that kind of turns into like, okay, this is giving like racist. And like this can reflect in real life situations even though this is like a fantasy book about a girl with powers. But anyways, the overall point I'm trying to make is like booktok has transformed the publishing industry in the sense of making it more inclusive and diverse and stuff. Like before I didn't even know books with the main character being a hijabi Muslim woman existed. Like, I didn't know any of that until I found creators, whether they must be Muslim or not, creating videos talking about these books that actually exist by these Muslim authors. Like, damn, I didn't know what I was missing out on because you can't really necessarily miss the something that you didn't have in your life before. But that's what it kind of felt like reading those books for the first time. And I do appreciate the book community overall doing that. I feel like there's still a lot of work to be done, still at the forefront of the book community. It is white CIS books, this and that. And those books are great too, don't get me wrong. But there should be more room for every kind of book with every kind of representation and inclusiveness and diverseness as a whole. So we all feel represented. I guess it falls down to the reader to actually having that self kind of conversation with them. I'm like, okay, let me diversify my reading like palette. The books that I buy engage with, talk about whatever it is because it honestly changes you as a person. Like you become more eye opened and it teaches you a lot of things without you even realizing it because you're reading for the story. But you get a lot more than just the fictional story. You get literally everything out of it.
- [56:07]
Amanda Montel
Based on your wonderful answer to that question, I just wonder to ask one more thing, which is I'm hearing that at the same time that there are like maybe cons to booktok like the shadow work journal making some people think that they don't need therapy. There are major pros because it is book recommendations by the people, not by the elitist publishing industry. And it's obvious that there are pros and cons to both those things. Do you have any advice for how people can engage with the cult of book talk in the best way and like the ritualistic hypey way, but not in the toxic, ignorant, discouraging culty way?
- [56:43]
Eamon
Absolutely. Honestly, my number one advice is just to follow a diverse range of creators, engage with their content because you know your for page is curated to you. If you are here complaining about. Okay, well I don't necessarily get a diverse range of book recommendations from book talk. That kind of is very telling on yourself. Like okay, maybe you don't necessarily engage with creators from all different kinds of genres. Like if you want book recommendations with either certain tropes or representation or whatever that you can literally search and you will find it, it will be at the very top of the page and then like it, engage with it, save it, whatever. And there you go. Your 40 page is already diversified. I just follow people that I really liked from all different types of genres. Not just romance, which is my favorite genre, but like literally niche specific parts of the booktok Internet. You wouldn't even think there were content creators within that niche specific part of booktok, but there are. It's such a big community from getting insider. So that's my number one advice. You have to put in a little bit of the work yourself.
- [57:34]
Amanda Montel
Make father algorithm work for you.
- [57:36]
Eamon
Exactly, exactly.
- [57:44]
Reese Oliver
Now that we have made you talk about how culty book talk is, now you get to play a fun little game. This is a brand new game that sounds like a cult. We are going to give you a cult we have covered on this show and you, you are going to recommend them. A book. Preferably a booktok book. Okay, our first cult astrology lovers.
- [58:03]
Eamon
I'm gonna recommend the Zodiac Academy. It's like a 12 book series and it's not about zodiacs particularly. It's like fantasy, it's romance. It's kind of dark. But honestly you said astrology. I'm like, oh yeah, Zodiac Academy. I think you'll find that interesting.
- [58:18]
Amanda Montel
Dude, I have so much respect. Every time I talk to a booktoker they're like oh yeah, yeah, no, like there are 50 books in the series. But I flew through them. I'm like, I am such a wim. I get you.
- [58:29]
Eamon
Because those books are thick and people read them in one day.
- [58:32]
Amanda Montel
I have so much respect for that. Okay, the next cult for you to choose a booktok book for is the cult of Gilmore Girls fans.
- [58:38]
Eamon
Oh my gosh. Okay, this is so sweet. I would say, like anything by Tessa Bailey. She particularly only writes rom coms, and it's comedic but also romantic, but also, like, there's that book, the Pumpkin Spice Cafe. The author's name is something Gilmore. I forgot her name, but that is literally Gilmore Girls. Like, you will get that vibe, that essence, that that energy with books by that author.
- [58:59]
Reese Oliver
Beautiful. Okay, Catholic school alumni, what are they reading?
- [59:03]
Eamon
Oh, I'm kind of scared. Okay, this is kind of a problematic first recommendation that came to my head, but Priest by Sierra Simone, even though that is, like, the opposite of what you have been learning in school, it is a romance book about a priest and a nun. Please no one come at me. It is very hot. That is the first thing that came to mind. I can't help myself.
- [59:24]
Amanda Montel
I am so shook at how good you are at this game. I would have no idea.
- [59:27]
Eamon
Dude, I can't believe they're coming to my head that quick. I should reevaluate myself.
- [59:34]
Reese Oliver
There really is a booktok book for everyone.
- [59:36]
Amanda Montel
Okay, the next cult is K Pop Stans.
- [59:39]
Eamon
Ooh, there's this book. It's called XOX by Axio, and it's literally about a girl that goes to Korea, and she attends her favorite K pop group band concert, and I think she falls in love with the K pop band member, like, the main guy, and it goes exactly with a K pop Stan. So there you go.
- [59:58]
Reese Oliver
Okay, last one. Sephora shoppers.
- [60:01]
Eamon
Ooh, Sephora shoppers. Okay, I'm gonna recommend the Twisted series by Anna Huang because it follows a group of four girls, and they're very girly and this and that. But the last book in that series called Twisted Lies follows a content creator, and she does fall into, like, fashion and stuff like that. And I know that's not makeup, but I feel like people that enjoy makeup will love that series. It's very girly. It's very cute. It's very sexy. So I'm gonna recommend the Twisted series.
- [60:29]
Amanda Montel
Amazing. You won that fucking game.
- [60:31]
Eamon
Oh, my God, I'm so impressed. Wow. I'm gonna put that on my resume. Like, I can just give you big recommendations, like, instantly.
- [60:38]
Amanda Montel
Seriously, you're like a Magic 8 ball.
- [60:40]
Eamon
Oh, my God. Thank you. Thank you.
- [60:42]
Amanda Montel
You're so welcome. Eamon, you are such a delight to speak to as delightful, if not more than you are in your book talk videos.
- [60:51]
Eamon
Oh, my God, stop.
- [60:53]
Amanda Montel
If people want to keep up with you and your delightfulness, where can they do that?
- [60:57]
Eamon
They can do that on literally any social media platform. I'm Amos Books across the Board.
- [61:01]
Reese Oliver
Simple, easy. We love it.
- [61:08]
Amanda Montel
All right, it is now time for our culty verdict. Rhys, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back and get the out. Which one do you think the cult of Book talk falls into?
- [61:24]
Reese Oliver
I think it's a live your life. That's it.
- [61:28]
Amanda Montel
Rhys and I were texting about this earlier. I agree. It's a Live youe Life. One huge green flag. Flag for Booktok is that there's no truly evil charismatic leader presiding over the rights and liberties of everyone who engages with this.
- [61:44]
Reese Oliver
Exactly.
- [61:45]
Amanda Montel
Like, it's a grassroots cult really powered by women that also benefits women. Green flag, in my opinion. And there don't seem to really be exit costs. Suddenly you'll have to find your book recommendations elsewhere.
- [61:59]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, I feel like. Like it's like hopefully you exit into like better literature. I suppose it's more transcendence than it is an exit.
- [62:08]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, I mean, I can't disagree with you. Also, I don't want anyone listening to this who engages with the cult of Book talk to feel judged. Like, yeah. At all. Like, like truly, like live your fucking life, man. Genuinely, like pop off arc those ACOTARs and DNF that NFTs or whatever. Whatever the. I just won't be there.
- [62:27]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. No. Hashtag it, vlog. It set up your little tripod to record a 4 second snippet of you reading Live your Life. I love it for you.
- [62:36]
Amanda Montel
Yeah. Read a book and try. Maybe like not even telling anyone about it.
- [62:40]
Reese Oliver
We should each leave them with a recommendation that's really constructive.
- [62:44]
Amanda Montel
I love that. What? What do you have for the culties? What are you reading?
- [62:49]
Reese Oliver
I am about to start reading Sherry Frankie's book that just came out about her life as the oldest, a passenger's daughter.
- [62:56]
Eamon
So.
- [62:57]
Reese Oliver
So I guess that's my preemptive recommendation because I haven't read it yet, but.
- [63:01]
Amanda Montel
I plan to very. Sounds like a cult reading list. Goodness. One of my favorite reads of 2024 was the Ministry of Time, which is also kind of genre bending, a little bit speculative. And that is our show.
- [63:15]
Reese Oliver
Thank you so much for listening.
- [63:17]
Amanda Montel
Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty.
- [63:22]
Reese Oliver
But not too culty.
- [63:32]
Amanda Montel
Sounds like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Overthinking Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the soundslikeacult on Instagram for all the discourse Sounds like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult.
- [64:29]
Eamon
Hi.
- [64:29]
Amanda Montel
I'm Kristen Bell and if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car? Not so much.
- [64:35]
Eamon
We're really doing this, huh?
- [64:37]
Amanda Montel
Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your van or license and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.
- [64:48]
Eamon
Bye bye Truckee.
- [64:49]
Amanda Montel
Of course, we kept the favorite.
- [64:53]
Eamon
Hello other Truckee.
- [64:54]
Amanda Montel
Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply.
- [64:59]
Nordstrom Ad
Imagine being on a vacation for a very long time. Now imagine saving money nightly while you do it. Sounds pretty great, right? With vrbo's Long Stay discounts, you can stay longer and stay save more. Our customers save an average of 10% when they book select properties for a week or longer. Just in case you needed another reason to extend that vacation, book the Perfect Summer Getaway today with Verbo Private Vacation Rentals. Your future self will thank you later.