Chelsea Charles (2:47)

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

Amanda Montell (2:57)

And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get the out. After all, cultish thinking and behavior exists on a spectrum these days. And sometimes it shows up in contemporary places that don't necessarily look like the satanic basement gatherings or remote midsommar esque fields you might expect.

Chelsea Charles (3:19)

That's right. Sometimes a modern day cult could show up in the skincare industry, operated by ex nurses who speak in units and repeat the word preventative like a mantra. I'm talking about a cult of aesthetics that seems to have reached an all time high in our culture. One that suggests you've achieved God status when your face doesn't move. Today we're driving forehead first into the cult of Botox, hoping to analyze it through our cheeky but also kind of serious cult lens to determine how messed up this false promise of immortality really is.

Amanda Montell (3:59)

I've been thinking a lot about Botox recently. Have you? I mean. Cause I just saw the movie Hamnet, the like beautiful cinematic drama. And the lead in that movie, Jessie Buckley, has a face that moves. And watching her in this period drama with like a face that was totally believable as existing in the 1600s or whenever that was, I was just like, God, this is refreshing. And did that stop me from making a botox appointment literally the next day? No. I was like, oh, how beautiful that is for her.

Chelsea Charles (4:32)

But as for me in my house.

Amanda Montell (4:34)

Yeah, exactly. As for me and my expressions. We've got to dial it back. Do you fuck with Botox?

Chelsea Charles (4:41)

Okay, so I have gotten botox before. I got Botox year before last for the first time and I got it last year. Again, I will say I am quite literally obsessed with Botox. I think it's so fire. I love the feeling after it sets in. Here's the thing, it wasn't good to my pockets. The only reason I haven't upkept. But I live for a good Botox.

Amanda Montell (5:08)

Okay, love that. Thank you for sharing. I can't say I'm like quite as proud of my Botox. Maybe I Should be okay. I owned it more shamelessly, like, five years ago, because this was my trajectory. So I used to work in the beauty industry, where there is this very, like, keep up with the Joneses. Like, everyone else is getting the injectables and the highlights and the nails and the whatnot. So that is a cult in and of itself. And I would have liked to think I was immune to it, but I definitely was not. And I have archived a lot of my Instagram photos because I'm so embarrassed of what I used to look like. But anyways, just because it was inauthentic. Anywho, When I was 25, almost 26, I got Botox for the first time because it was free. Like, in the beauty industry, there were always offers to come and get Botox in exchange for, like, potential coverage or, like, interviewing that plastic surgeon for press at some point. But it was also because I had just gotten these, like, film portraits taken. My. One of my best friends from high school came and took some portraits of me, which are beautiful, beautiful photos on film. And, like, one of my favorite things about film photos is how tactile and textured they are. But I noticed for the first time that you could see these, like, static frown lines on my forehead. And the story that I told myself, and that I still tell myself, but maybe it's a lie, and maybe we'll unpack it today, is that I didn't want to look permanently angry because I don't feel like an angry person. Well, sometimes.

Chelsea Charles (6:39)

But I.

Amanda Montell (6:40)

In general, I didn't want people to look at my face and see frown lines all the time. I like, frown in concentration when I work. You know, when I'm like, writing, I grimace, unfortunately. So I was like, oh, God, I've got to treat those. And then it was just right there, like it was free. But then after I left the beauty industry, I've still upkept the Botox. Not a lot. Every, like, six months, I would say. So it really. It wears off. My face does move a little too much. You can always tell what I'm thinking. But, yeah, that's my journey with Botox. I did write about it at the beauty magazine. I was a little prouder of it, like, five years ago because. Because there was that, like, you go girl, like, pseudo body positivity movement happening back then, where it's like, yes, be forthcoming about all the shit that you're getting. It's hashtag self care. But now I'm actually kind of coming around the other way and wanting to unpack it. So that's a long ass monologue to say that I get Botox, but I'm not excited about it necessarily.

Chelsea Charles (7:31)

Man, that's super interesting because I feel like if we're talking about, you mentioned body positivity, which is kind of like accepting people for who they are and accepting yourself for who, who you are. But I also feel like that would fall still like Botox and be able to fix the things that you don't like kind of fits into that thing too, because it's like, okay, I don't like this thing, so I'm gonna change it.

Amanda Montell (7:56)

And I totally think that's valid. I mean, that's how I treat it. But then I also wonder how much is my authentic desire and like my own independent sense of choice factoring in and how much of it is this, like cult influence from ultimately the imperialist, capitalistic patriarchy to get like this? But of course, at the end of the day. But yeah, I think on the sort of like body neutrality, body positivity argument. Well, first of all, like, I agree with that and I can't help but be like, oh, yeah, no, no, no. All of that body positivity and acceptance applies to other people, not to me. Because it's whatever. It's like you hold yourself to like a different standard. It's like, oh my God, everybody else should take the weekends off, but I have to work. It's just like masochism at a point, but also not masochism. It's ego. Cause you're like, you know, whatever. It's like, maybe I don't really know what it is that's between me and my higher power slash therapist. But I do think a lot of that conversation ends up being about, like, personal choice. Like you do you. Yes, but what is personal choice in a culture that is so shaped by politics and misogyny and the beauty standards that are wrapped up in that, like, we are living in a time of increased conservatism and sexism. And I can't help but think that that does have to do with the rise in Botox and like the frozen faces we're seeing in movies and stuff. Which makes me actually want to ask you, before we get into like, the history and all the stuff that we have to do on a. Sounds like a cult episode for our due diligence, I wanted to ask you, like, why do you feel like Botox was an appropriate topic for this show? Why do you think it's become not just a trend, but maybe something more

Chelsea Charles (9:36)

like a cult Just because of how it just shows up so commonly in everyday conversation. There is a cult light following around aesthetics and skin care in itself. And one of the arguments for Botox more recently and how everyone has been able to kind of, like, I guess, push it to the forefront in the skincare world is because they say that Botox increases the elasticity in your face. So it's been helping the adult acne girlies be able to kind of, like, justify the usage. And so we see it so much in the zeitgeist now aligned with, like I said, like, skincare, that it just made sense. Sense for us to unpack it here.

Amanda Montell (10:16)

Yeah, no, it's taken over. It's like the labubu of the face.

Chelsea Charles (10:20)

Yes, absolutely.

Amanda Montell (10:22)

Botox is as much a part of conversations now as, like, Stanley cups were in 2024. Definitely, definitely. It's like, what's the deal with Botox, everybody? Is it a cult?

Chelsea Charles (10:32)

I will also add that, you know how, like, for, like, red carpet season, people analyze the outfits. So, like, people, oh, yeah, this person is wearing Alexander McQueen, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now people are tending to do the analyzing of the face of the work that people they think have had done. I think it is the most hilarious thing now. It's just not a conversation that we were having, like, maybe, like, 30 years ago. So I think it's extremely relevant.

Amanda Montell (10:58)

Yes, yes. Okay. So I think it's time to get into Botox's culty origin story and then how it went from this kind of, like, underground taboo thing to something that we're openly analyzing on the faces of celebrities, the way that we would talk about their jewelry.

Chelsea Charles (11:16)

Yes. So once upon a time, cultists, Botox was not the stuff on Real Housewives. Sources say the bacteria Clostridium botulinum was first discovered in 1895 by Belgian scientists following a botulism outbreak in Belgium after a bunch of people ate some really bad sausage. So sorry I'm. The word sausage, it just sends me. Of course, whenever a new bacteria drops, scientists go nuts and start to study it religiously. Enter the father of Botox, our Botox Zaddy, Dr. Edward Scant, Dr. Edwin Shonz. Shonz.

Amanda Montell (12:04)

I feel like it's Shon's Shonce.

Chelsea Charles (12:06)

You're right.

Amanda Montell (12:06)

Was he hot? Let's look him up. No. Oh, no. Oh, no. I mean, to each their own. Oh, no quirky glasses.

Chelsea Charles (12:16)

So not a zaddy. Not a zaddy. You know what?

Amanda Montell (12:18)

We can't all be good at everything.

Chelsea Charles (12:19)

Okay?

Amanda Montell (12:20)

He was good at turning lemons into lemonade. And wow, it is funny that, like, the father of this aesthetic cult was like kind of a.

Chelsea Charles (12:31)

Wait, Amanda, I will not let you do this. Did you look at an OG picture of him when he was younger? He's kind of fine.

Amanda Montell (12:39)

Okay, so. So, yeah, so, yeah, so maybe. Okay, so maybe this is how this makes sense, is he was like, oh, my God, I aged poorly. I used to be a fox, and I want to prevent others from experiencing my downward spiral.

Chelsea Charles (12:56)

Yes, yes. Got it. Okay, so Dr. Edward Shonts finally isolated the paralytic toxin into crystalline form to make botulinum toxin in 1946. By the 1970s, another Botox daddy, Dr. Allen Scott, purified the toxin and began using it to treat cross eyes and eye twitching. I actually live for that.

Amanda Montell (13:19)

It's so funny. It reminds me of how, like Latisse, the eyelash growth serum, was a glaucoma medication. And they were like, oh, it can also help make people hot.

Chelsea Charles (13:28)

Oh, I actually did not know that.

Amanda Montell (13:30)

That's like this. It was supposed to be like a cross eye medication.

Chelsea Charles (13:34)

And here we are.

Amanda Montell (13:35)

And then they were like, oh, it can actually make people hot.

Chelsea Charles (13:38)

Put this in my 11s. Okay. And by the late 80s, it was used to treat eye muscle disorders. And that's when people started to notice that not only did their eyes not spasm anymore, but their wrinkles disappeared after each use. By 2002, the FDA approved Botox for the cosmetic treatment of frown lines, marking its widespread entry into aesthetics. And the rest, they say, is history. Wow,

Amanda Montell (14:10)

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Chelsea Charles (16:56)

I feel like what shifted is our access to the information. When celebrities started dropping the jewels and showing what's going on behind the scenes, going to those Botox parties and getting Botox and doing the plastic surgery, it allowed us to feel the skin sense of like we are in the inside along with them.

Amanda Montell (17:15)

And then it was like permission. And I also noticed that as soon as celebrities started talking about it and I feel like the Kardashians were probably, I mean, like their role in setting these standards is not to be underestimated. But I remember they started being a little more forthcoming, at least some of them. And the cosmetic surgery industry got really excited about that and started saying about how that was such a positive thing. Thing. And I think all of that subtly or not so subtly, encouraged more and more people to develop a curiosity about it. And then it just became a standard. It wasn't this thing that like, oh, only those, like really vain, shallow people do. It was just something totally normal.

Chelsea Charles (17:57)

Right.

Amanda Montell (17:57)

And that is a trajectory that a lot of aesthetic procedures have gone on. Like, you know, the Vox Explained series, they have a great episode on plastic surgery explained. And I learned from that episode that a lot of people, cosmetic procedures or even just like tweaks that don't require going under the knife or going under the needle start out as being taboo and then increasingly become the norm. Like even dying your hair was considered taboo in like the 1950s and people would like do it in secret. And even applying makeup in public was like, so hush hush, you weren't supposed to do that. And then the needle moved, no pun intended. And now it's even not necessarily taboo to talk about. You know, like my husband got a hair transplant and he talks very openly about that. I think just plastic surgery and cosmetic procedures overall are becoming more normalized, which you could think of as a good thing. But I think also there's some sinister encouragement on the part of the industry to make it normal so that more people get it.

Chelsea Charles (18:59)

Yes.

Amanda Montell (19:00)

Now there are other factors that have potentially contributed to this culti rise. According to an article in the Washington Post titled How Botox went Middle class. Botox is no longer secretive or elite. The explosion of Medispas and so called Botox bars across cities meant that you didn't necessarily need to be a celebrity or super wealthy to get injected. And then of course, aggressive marketing from manufacturers in the beauty industry. You know, articles that I myself wrote about Botox as well as portrayals on reality tv. Like I remember there was a Botox party scene in the show selling Sunset. All have framed Botox as this expected ritual for. And this is so culty, preventing aging, which is just like such a futile effort, obviously, like if you can guarantee anything in life, it's that time will go on and you'll either age or die. But a lot of very serious cults from history have promised immortality in some way. Mystical transcendence. And some of that is like sci fi and creepy and some of that feels more mainstream like Botox. But that false promise, like you said, of immortality is still there. There's this beauty industry critic and journalist named Jessica Defino who was actually a guest way back in the day on Sounds like a cult skincare episode, who gave a great interview with NPR about Botox. And she said, I like to refer to what's happening right now with respect to Botox as aesthetic inflation. So, like, everything is just ballooning. And, you know, it's like lifestyle inflation. Like, if you get a raise or if you like start to move up in social class, your lifestyle moves up to fit that. But then it makes it really hard to like, go back. And that's what's happening with Botox.

Chelsea Charles (20:46)

Yeah. So what used to be whispered about now is talked about as casually as a manicure or a blowout. In 2024, U.S. neuromodulator procedures nearly doubled from before the pandemic, which some suggest could be due to the zoom boom when everyone started staring at their face all day in zoom meetings during the pandemic, which led to steep increase in cosmetic procedures. That's insane to think about.

Amanda Montell (21:12)

I mean, that makes sense. Like, I can relate to that. I definitely scrutinize my face way more now that, like, podcasts are supposed to have a video component. We do have a small YouTube channel, by the way. Anyone wants to watch our show. And I do find myself like, being more concerned about my face because of that. I'm staring at it more. There's like a culture of self obsession for better and for worse right now. And I think technology really mediates that.

Chelsea Charles (21:38)

I also think there's something to be said, like this idea, which was again, during like Covid times, it falls under the like wellness umbrella, right? Of like, you have to be productive, you have to be bettering yourself. And I watch all these lifestyle videos with these people. Like 5am I'm making a high protein breakfast and I'm taking my 10,000 steps a day and here's my Botox. It's just like, I don't know. I totally understand what you're saying.

Amanda Montell (22:07)

Oh yeah, it's also. And like that type of person earned a label too, right? It's that girl. That girl as a phrase means like a woman who is super composed, has her shit together, wakes up to go to Pilates at 6am, gets her Botox every three months, is basically participating in a lot of different culty behaviors that society overall celebrates.

Chelsea Charles (22:29)

Right. Speaking about that girl, who do we think the cult leaders are here within the cult of Botox? Is it the cosmetic surgeons or the pharmaceutical companies or influencers?

Amanda Montell (22:42)

I think there's a lot of mutual escalation happening among all of those different parties that makes it hard to pinpoint one particular charismatic leader like Medispa. Owners and doctors benefit from influencers Talking about Botox, of course. Like, the pharmaceutical companies who own Botox and also the, like, generic brands. Like, I've also gotten Xeomin before. It's also like a neurotoxin that paralyzes your face. Oh, that reminds me of the other wild thing that I think is culty about Botox is that there's all this very vague messaging that Botox gets rid of your wrinkles or makes you ageless or, like, prevents aging. But what nobody is saying is the specifics of what it actually does. It just paralyzes your muscles so that you can't make the expressions that form wrinkles. Like, people who never smile will never have smile lines. I know that sounds obvious, and we'll talk about the, like, existential implications of this later, but if you really get down to the brass tacks, Botox is preventing women from showing emotions. It's honestly kind of handmaid's tale. Like, everybody just wants women to be still.

Chelsea Charles (23:53)

Be still and cherub and young.

Amanda Montell (23:56)

Yes, to be still, to be cherub. Like cherubic.

Chelsea Charles (23:59)

Ooh, cherubic.

Amanda Montell (24:00)

Cherubic. How about that? And it's almost like a silencing tactic. It's like it's silencing your face. So, yeah, I don't know. I think it's really hard to pinpoint one specific cult leader because, like, one week it could be a certain celebrity who's talking about it, and one week it could be plastic surgeon who has a YouTube video go viral. Of course the pharmaceutical companies are benefiting, but I think that's one of the reasons why this might not be traditionally thought of as a cult, because there's not, like, a preacher being like, everybody get Botox.

Chelsea Charles (24:29)

Yeah.

Amanda Montell (24:29)

What do you think?

Chelsea Charles (24:30)

I wanted to say that you mentioned a few times, like, the whole med spa world. And I will say, I think what's so interesting about Botox as a cult, Botox as a trend is how it's also been able to change the trajectory of, like, what people decide their career path. Like, I have so many friends who started off like bedside nursing, and they're saving lives, which is a job with so much responsibility. And now, I guess, feeling the weight of the world or for whatever reason, have decided to peace out to bedside nursing. Oh. And they're on the aesthetic side. And I cannot tell you the amount of friends I have now who have gone in that direction. And I just find it super, super interesting.

Amanda Montell (25:15)

That is really interesting. Like, as the weight of the world becomes heavier, it unfortunately is making people be like, you know what I don't wanna spend my life doing this. I'm no martyr. Let me just use my training to do something a little lighter. Yeah, but so they're, like, getting sucked into the cult from another direction.

Chelsea Charles (25:33)

Absolutely. I just wanted to make that point. But to answer your question, I definitely believe the cult leaders are the influencers, the celebs. If I can line them up, the celebs slash influencers are at the top.

Amanda Montell (25:45)

Totally. They're, like, literally the face of this cult. Yes. And that's why I appreciated seeing Jessie Buckley's face in Hamnet and why, like, you know, Amanda Seyfried has been doing press for some movies that she has coming out. Then, of course, there's Queen Claire Danes, who the Internet is so cruel to because her face folds.

Chelsea Charles (26:06)

Cameron Diaz.

Amanda Montell (26:07)

Yeah. And I'm so grateful for them. And again, I would love to think that I'm not as influenced by the cult of celebrity beauty standards, because we're in this line of work and we're critiquing this stuff all the time, and I'm not in the beauty industry anymore. But seeing the counter to that, like, seeing people whose faces really do move on screen, it really made me realize, like. Like, oh, my God, I am totally in this cult. And if everyone's face on screen moved to the way that Jesse Buckley's and Amanda Seyfried and Claire Danes's and Cameron Diaz's did, then I would probably not be doing this.

Chelsea Charles (26:40)

Right.

Amanda Montell (26:41)

So you're totally right. Okay. But in terms of, like, recruitment strategies to getting people in and keeping them there. I credit so much to the culty language in the Botox world. Terms like, like, baby talks, preventative Botox. There is so much euphemism happening in this world that makes it seem like, oh, like, you can quit at any time. This isn't a big deal. You know, you're not getting plastic surgery. This is good for you. This is just a tiny little. So I want to break down some of the terms that you might not realize are contributing to the culture of Botox that, like, in group feeling. So there's baby talks, which is getting a little bit of Botox to prevent lines down the road. That's what people called it when I first started getting it.

Chelsea Charles (27:28)

It's so untrue.

Amanda Montell (27:30)

What's your take?

Chelsea Charles (27:30)

I don't know. Like, same thing. What we were talking about earlier is, like, you don't want to fully say that you are involved in the cult. So they try to put it on, like, a small scale. So you can kind of like ease your way into something or like, oh, yeah, I just get a little baby talks.

Amanda Montell (27:43)

It's Botox. You're just getting a little less. It's the same thing. It's literally the same exact thing. It reminds me of like in Scientology when they're recruiting new members and they're like, oh, you can belong to any religion. You know, you can just have one foot in, one foot out. Which is not true. They just make you think that at the beginning, the term angry elevens, also, this is like a charged label. Some of that loaded language that is distinctive to cults. Your angry elevens are your frown lines. And when you label them angry elevens, it makes it so easy to demonize. Like, oh, you've got to get rid of those angry 11s. They're not angry for me. They're a sign of concentration. But when you label it that way, it's like, oh, my God, we gotta load up on paralyzing the angry 11 so that I'm not angry, so that I'm a pretty happy girl. There's. And I hadn't heard this before, but the Nefertiti, named after the Egyptian queen who, Chelsea, you were explaining, had, like a snatched jaw.

Chelsea Charles (28:36)

Yeah, there are beautiful busts after Nefertiti. Her jawline was snatched. Honey, it was beautiful.

Amanda Montell (28:44)

Okay? Yeah, because slice a man in half. Okay? So the Nefertiti, which really feels like this highfalutin label, like, oh, my God. If you just get Botox here, you'll recreate the image of a queen that refers to Botox placement in your jaw and neck to give you that razor sharp jawline. Oh, I've heard this one. The lines from the corners of your mouth to your chin, your nasolabial folds, as they say. They refer to those lines as the marionette. So now you're a fucking clown. Fix your face. There's the parentheses or the bunny lines. Those are the lines from your nose to the corners of your mouth. Those, like, cute little bunny lines that they're now demonizing. There's the lip flip, which is Botox put around the mouth to make your lips look filler. There's Brotox. When men get Botox.

Chelsea Charles (29:32)

Give me a fucking break, okay? Because now.

Amanda Montell (29:35)

Now that we're modifying it from Botox to Botox, it implies that the default is for women. We don't need to spell this out. We already feel it. But it's like, oh, no. Anti aging is for women. Like, women are the only ones who aren't supposed to Age. It's like, you know, when men wear eyeliner, it's like guy liner, whatever.

Chelsea Charles (29:53)

Or like, dude, wipes. I'm like, it's just a wipe. Yeah, dude, wiping your ass. It's the same thing. It's the same thing.

Amanda Montell (30:00)

I know. It's like, why do we have to genderfy everything? And then there's. There's the us versus them label of no tox, describing people who are vehemently against it. And that is this kind of ideological war that I've seen emerge too, is that like, as Botox is getting more popular, there are others who are like, doubling down and now starting to judge it even more. I've seen that. I remember maybe three years ago when it was sin, I guess the golden age of being able to talk about Botox publicly and not have it be taboo. People would be like, oh, yeah, cool, do you. And now that there's more of this new, this divide, I've noticed that sometimes when I'll mention it or when it comes up, there will be certain, you know, no toxers who will be like, oh my God, I would never, I would never. Because I think they have the like, extreme Anne Hathaway face.

Chelsea Charles (30:46)

Yeah.

Amanda Montell (30:46)

In their minds, you know.

Chelsea Charles (30:48)

I also think that it's because there's a lot of misinformation regarding neurotoxins in general, but some people don't know what the hell they're talking about. They're like, yeah, her face looks so plump and fat and all these things. And it's like, like, oh, you're referring to filler. You don't know what you're talking about at all. And the thing about gender specifically, the idea that guys do not know that other guys get Botox as well, like, it is a thing. Like they. It's so much scrutiny with women, specifically with getting the treatments, with no idea that men are walking around in plain sight and they are getting Botox.

Amanda Montell (31:26)

Oh, 100%. 100% actors on screen. It's so true. Like, and that's part of this cult that just upsets me so much, is that what are we supposed to do? I mean, like, women are not supposed to age, but if you overshoot the mark even a little bit now, you'll be censured for being this, like, Stepford wife. And I'm just like, we gotta back up and have a conversation about beauty standards and not necessarily blame like certain individuals or just be like, overly mean. I mean, we're being mean to women on either side of the spectrum. Yeah, I see people being mean about Amanda Seyfried's face. I see people being mean about Ariana Grande's face. And Arianators don't come for me. I know she said that she doesn't get Botox anymore, but, like, let's be real. Look at her face. But Chelsea, you're completely right that some people don't actually know what Botox is. And so they'll just see someone's face being doctored in a negative way and be like, oh, my God, like, they're getting so much Botox and it's like, actually the thing that you're not liking about their face is the filler. Now, that said, Botox is being marketed for a whole hell of a lot of things beyond just aging. People use it in the armpits, hands, and feet to control sweating. They also use it, use it in the calves for slimmer legs, in the traps to reduce big back muscles. It's been used to treat overactive bladders, anal fissures, vaginismus. The makers of Botox are like, this is a one man band of miracles.

Chelsea Charles (32:46)

I also saw this new trend of men, like, putting Botox in their scrotum to reduce fine lines in their balls and to appear to be more voluptuous, like, bigger. And I'm like, first, aren't balls supposed to be wrinkly? I don't know.

Amanda Montell (33:04)

Look, if you're interacting with a ball, odds are you're so close to it, you can't even really see it. I'm like cross eyed every time I interact with a pair of testicles. You know what I mean? I don't know if there's wrinkles or what. Oh, my God. You know, I once. Wow. I don't know. Sure we can include this. Long before I was married, when I was really out here, you know, exploring my roster, I dated a guy who had a prosthetic ball. Cause he was a testicular cancer survivor. Oh, shout out. Yeah, for sure. He was also a goof. He was a total himbo. And his favorite joke was to, like, take like a hammer, you know, the nearest weapon, and like, kind of.

Chelsea Charles (33:42)

Okay, all right, yeah, do a little.

Amanda Montell (33:45)

Do a little gag with the prosthetic ball. It looked like a plain regular ball. And I'll tell you right now, I looked at that ball a lot, and I can't tell you how many fine lines there were or were not.

Chelsea Charles (33:55)

See? So no need for the Botox. And it's. So, listen, we talk about this all the time, but we have lived such parallel lives because while you dated someone with one ball, I dated someone with three. There. It's called poly Poly something something. Now to be completely fair, we dated after the removal of the third. Okay.

Amanda Montell (34:20)

Oh my God.

Chelsea Charles (34:21)

But they had a war wound from their surgery they were having was apparently too large, too long hanging. They would say that it would hang out their shorts and so they were like it was a hazard had to be removed.

Amanda Montell (34:38)

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Chelsea Charles (37:27)

Yes. Okay, so let's get into some of the sunk costs associated with Botox. There's this old Botox gospel. Once you start, you can never stop. Who hasn't heard that before while visiting their favorite injector?

Amanda Montell (37:41)

Oh, yeah. They're like, oh my God, you're gonna get addicted. You're gonna get obsessed. And I'm like, like, I really hope not actually, you wild eyed fool.

Chelsea Charles (37:52)

So spoiler alert. That's not true. You can literally quit Botox cold turkey and your face will not melt off. But this little mantra isn't about being sincere. It's about indoctrination. It's framed as once you see how good you look, you won't want to stop.

Amanda Montell (38:08)

It's not true. I have gone like a full year, year and a half without getting Botox. I don't even notice this until again, like we were saying before, I see myself in a video. This just happened to me the other day. This is why I made the Botox appointment. Because I looked back at a video that we were filming of an episode of this podcast and I was like, damn, my forehead is just like out of control. And yeah, I think it's so unfortunate that now that everybody is supposed to document themselves online, lest you cease to exist, we're now forced to scrutinize ourselves. I'm like, oh my God, give it a rest. I'm sick of it. But it's like, for my stupid wonderful job, I love doing this. But I actually do wish I didn't have to be on camera so much because I don't want to. I just want to see myself the way that others see me in real life. You know, the way that I see my friends. You know, like, I don't notice my friends wrinkles in real life. But you do notice it on camera. And that said, Botox is totally temporary. You're really only signing up for a three month commitment. But that said, if you want to keep up with it, you got to go back Every three to six months. And that is not cheap. I get a little, like, bank or whatever, like a Botox bank. Whenever they have, like, a big sale, I like, load up on, like, a year's worth of Botox. It's a heavy investment. I'm over it. And, you know, if you've spent all this money to look younger, whatever, prevent wrinkles from forming for all these years, then stopping can feel like, oh, well, what was all that for? If I'm just gonna start forming wrinkles now? Which I actually think is fallacious thinking, because, like, like, if you go five years without your face moving as much, that will be five years of wrinkle prevention. You know what I mean? Like, so in a way, you will kind of look five years younger. That's girl math. But whatever. Like, it's not like, it'll be, like, all for nothing. But the industry does kind of make you feel that way, which is so culty. Because when you think about one of the major red flags in cults being that they don't give people an easy and dignified way to leave. That's true here too.

Chelsea Charles (40:06)

Yeah. I was trying to make a connection with the cult of weddings because that's literally why I got Botox.

Amanda Montell (40:14)

Oh, no. I mean, that's a great point. There are so many, like, cult industries that overlap with Botox.

Chelsea Charles (40:19)

Yes, absolutely. The cult of weddings. And it was because I was consuming so much wedding content during the time of I'm planning for my wedding, I started getting these videos about women showing their six month out, three month out Botox plan. If you've never gotten Botox before, no way. And so I got Botox for my wedding. And I started because I was like, oh, I want to try this out, but I still want to be able to cry and show emotion. But it's this whole thing that I kind of like. You put it into your wedding budget, you kind of, like, price it out and all the things. And I don't know, I just felt like I was influenced at the time because I'm like, I want to look perfect on that special day.

Amanda Montell (41:04)

That is a great clue that your instinct about the influencers being the cult leader here and the celebrities is spot on. Because it's not like you saw a billboard for some medispa about, like, get Botox for your wedding. It was the boots on the ground, grassroots influence who was like, this is what I did. And thus, this is what you should do too.

Chelsea Charles (41:22)

Yes. Yes.

Amanda Montell (41:23)

Okay. So obviously, brides are vulnerable to falling into the cult of Botox. But what demographic do you think is the most vulnerable to this cult in a truly negative way?

Chelsea Charles (41:32)

I would say younger girlies, just because there is this beauty standard that they feel like they have to kind of like subscribe to in order to remain youthful, remain beautiful. And you know, I just think it's sad, this idea that it's like you have to do Botox. It's become so, so, so normalized. I've actually worked with a few influencers who as young as 21 and have started their Botox journey. And for me I'm just like, what is selling that idea of preventative? It's like, what wrinkles do you even see? What wrinkles do you have?

Amanda Montell (42:09)

It's a cult of fear. It's a cult of fear of aging. And it's having extremely deleterious effects on younger generations.

Chelsea Charles (42:16)

Yes. Okay, so getting more into Botox effect on your mental health. The same Washington Post article we mentioned before notes that despite its normalized status, experts still warn about unsafe practices like bargain Botox, societal pressures that equate aging with failure, especially for women, and the inequality in who can afford the line free skin versus who cannot. So many studies reflect how rigid modern beauty standards perpetuated on social media. The rise of Instagram fades are having significant and even life threatening mental health consequences, especially for young girls. One study from Dove's Self esteem research project uncovered that 85% of girls had already used filters and Facetune by age 13. And the number of inquiries to plastic surgeons from teens has been on the rise as well. That's. Oh my God, that's so sad. And all of this feeds into the broader cult dynamic here. Behaviors and beliefs that were once fringe become ritualized and expected, but also judged by outsiders, all with seriously detrimental consequences for the followers and benefits those in power.

Amanda Montell (43:34)

Oh my God, when you put it that way, it's just so obvious that this is a cult of sorts. And as we've been mentioning, like, it breaks my heart how it's taken over Hollywood. One of the reasons why I really, really wanted to do this episode this year is because came across this amazing video on YouTube that this YouTuber named Marina McBain made titled Hollywood has a New Face. And it's terrifying talking about how certain Hollywood actors, I mean, yeah, Anne Hathaway comes to mind, Nicole Kidman comes to mind. Their clear overuse of neuromodulators like Botox and filler are not only perpetuating this like unnatural, non expressive face face as the new beauty standard, but it's made their performances hard to read on screen. I'm just like, what fucking face are you making? Like, we're social creatures, like fine tuned to read others facial expressions. And if Nicole motherfucking Kidman is not allowed to frown on screen, that bitch

Chelsea Charles (44:36)

should be able to frown.

Amanda Montell (44:37)

It's the end of society. Like, and it's also the end of being not the end, but it's also like a threat to being able to enjoy the art of cinema. Like, Nicole Kidman can like never be in a period piece ever again. I mean, until she stops getting Botox. Because her face doesn't work. It doesn't before 2010. Like, that is not a face for the 1800s.

Chelsea Charles (44:58)

No, no it's not. And Nicole Kidman is like quite an incredible actor. And this over usage, our legends are going outside. That's all I got to say. It's too much. It's too much.

Amanda Montell (45:09)

I know, I know. It's a threat to art, like in a real way. It is trash for them, not for me. It's not a threat to the art of podcasting. Let me be very clear.

Chelsea Charles (45:22)

My God. Okay, so culties, I think it's time to talk about some horror stories associated with the cult of Botox. According to an article in the BBC, studies and expert voices suggest that long term use can subtly change muscle behavior and that there are rare but real risks, especially if injections aren't administered by trained professionals who involve counterfeit products. Meaning safety depends heavily on who is giving the shots and how.

Amanda Montell (45:52)

Yeah, In April of 2024, the CDC actually issued a warning after 22 women between the ages of 25 and 59 had these like, terrifying reactions to counterfeit or poorly handled Botox. Eleven of these women ended up hospitalized and six needed an antitoxin usually reserved for actual botulism cases. And that's a condition where toxin spreads beyond the local site and attacks the central nervous system. And that can cause like muscle paralysis and difficulty breathing and even death. And every single one of these cases happened after getting injections from unlicensed injectors in non medical settings, which is sometimes called backyard Botox. Pretty scary. I actually remember. I mean, this isn't quite that high stakes, but one of my closest friends, mom got Botox a couple years ago and that thing happened where like her eye was like fucked up and shut for like two months. It was a horror story.

Chelsea Charles (46:51)

I will say that's terrifying. That's like my worst nightmare.

Amanda Montell (46:56)

Oh, I know. No, she looks crazy and she's a preschool teacher, so it Was kind of horrifying for the children.

Chelsea Charles (47:00)

Yeah. You know, kids are. They're ruthless, baby.

Amanda Montell (47:03)

They're ruthless. That's true. They were probably giving her shit, honestly. The children are the cult leaders. I'm just kidding. But no, the children are the cult critics. Like, what did you do, miss lady? But yeah, those are the type of risks that, I mean, you sign a waiver and whatever the fuck, but like, your Medispa nurse is not like, oh, by the way, your eye could end up sealing shut for two months. Instead she's like, oh my God. Love.

Chelsea Charles (47:25)

Right?

Amanda Montell (47:25)

Slay girl, you're going to look amazed.

Chelsea Charles (47:27)

Yeah. In this same BBC article, it goes on to cite that a 2023 study led by neurologist Mitchell Brin at U UC Irvine that scanned the brains of 10 women before and after they got Botox. All right, this is the scary part. While looking at photos of angry, happy and neutral faces, their post Botox brain activity changed in two key emotion processing areas, the amygdala and the fusion form gyrus.

Amanda Montell (47:57)

Okay, come on, science. This is like a neuroscience right now. Sounds like a cult is a science podcast. I'm just kidding. Damn. Okay. Emotion processing areas.

Chelsea Charles (48:08)

So translation. Yes, Botox might mess with your ability to read the room.

Amanda Montell (48:13)

That's brainwashing.

Chelsea Charles (48:15)

Yeah.

Amanda Montell (48:15)

I mean, that is like body snatching.

Chelsea Charles (48:17)

Yes.

Amanda Montell (48:18)

Like we're compromising women's ability to process other people's emotions. Like, that's like some pluribus shit right now.

Chelsea Charles (48:23)

Yes. I mean, but also like, the proof is in the title. How we classify these are like dead giveaways. It's neuromodulator neurotoxin. It's like, it's kind of scary. Humans are emotional copycats. We instinctively mimic facial expressions to help decode how others are feeling. But if your smile muscles are on pause, your empathy might be too. Other studies back this up. Botox can make it harder to recognize and respond to emotions.

Amanda Montell (48:50)

That makes complete sense. Because mirror neurons, y'. All. Because mirror neurons. Anywho, so I'm scared. You can't tell because my forehead's frozen. Just kidding. I haven't re upped yet. I think it's actually now time to play a game. And it's just us playing this game today and culties feel free to play along with us. The game is culty or just cringe. So we're going to read to each other a list of Botox related scenarios and we're gonna determine whether they are culty or just cringe.

Chelsea Charles (49:24)

I'm ready. Okay. So, Amanda, is this culty or is it cringe? Botox parties at someone's apartment.

Amanda Montell (49:32)

I think it's culty because it reminds me of, like, Tupperware parties. Like MLM parties. Ooh. Ooh.

Chelsea Charles (49:37)

Yeah. Okay.

Amanda Montell (49:38)

It's like trying to make something that's not that funny, like fun and adorable.

Chelsea Charles (49:42)

It's not.

Amanda Montell (49:43)

What do you think?

Chelsea Charles (49:44)

I think it's culty and cringe because of what we talked about earlier. And how do we even know who's administering these?

Amanda Montell (49:50)

These 100% so true.

Chelsea Charles (49:55)

It's a little strange. I don't know.

Amanda Montell (49:57)

Okay, next one. Culture. Just cringe. Being on a first name basis at

Chelsea Charles (50:01)

Laser Away, I think that's just cringe. Just cringe.

Amanda Montell (50:04)

I'm so called out. I don't think I'm on a first name basis at Laser Away because again, I don't go that often, but that is where I get my Botox. Not sponsored. I mean, if they want to cover it, great.

Chelsea Charles (50:14)

But gang. Gang.

Amanda Montell (50:16)

Okay, Coltier. Just cringe. Saying you get baby Botox, but you actually get three syringes full every three months, like clockwork.

Chelsea Charles (50:24)

Cringy. Yeah, that's cringy and annoying.

Amanda Montell (50:27)

Yeah. Stop lying to everyone and stop lying to yourself.

Chelsea Charles (50:31)

Okay. Getting Botox regularly and saying that you've never gotten Botox. I hate, I hate.

Amanda Montell (50:37)

Ooh, that's gotta be culty because you're like, part of the cult, but you know there's something wrong with it and you're not contending with that. Cognitive dissonance.

Chelsea Charles (50:47)

Yeah. It's also like an us versus them, quite obviously, because you don't want anyone to know the secret secrets.

Amanda Montell (50:54)

That example is the ultimate gaslight gatekeep girl boss.

Chelsea Charles (50:58)

Oh, my God. Yes. Quintessentially.

Amanda Montell (51:01)

Okay, next one. Telling people once you get Botox, you can never stop.

Chelsea Charles (51:05)

That's culty for sure, because it's a straight up lie. Relying on your injector to tell you where you need Botox versus where you want Botox, that's culty.

Amanda Montell (51:15)

And I've had to resist this before. Being able to raise one eyebrow, like in a flirty way, but also in a skeptical way, is like a huge part of my personality. And I've had injectors try to get rid of my ability to do that. And I've been like, no. Like, this is who I am. Sorry about it.

Chelsea Charles (51:32)

Oh, my God, yes. I love those injectors. Who. They don't try to, like, upsell you on something. You just go in and you're like, like, here's what I'm feeling. And they kind of, you know.

Amanda Montell (51:43)

Totally. Last one, telling someone you just got a little Botox when you actually got a full Kris Jenner facelift, I think that's like, cringe. So. So, I mean, that's like delusional. Like, you need help. Just stop.

Chelsea Charles (51:56)

Like, I. I can see, like, your ear thing, your flat.

Amanda Montell (52:00)

I know. Like, be serious. Like, back away from that person slowly. They're not. Okay. Okay. All right. I think we've appropriately assessed today's cult, which means we have to get to our verdict. Chelsea, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of Botox falls into?

Chelsea Charles (52:22)

The cult of Botox is 1000% a watch your back. Yeah.

Amanda Montell (52:27)

Yeah.

Chelsea Charles (52:27)

I can't police what you spend your money on at all, but it's one of those things where just be careful where you're getting your Botox, where it's being sourced from. And remember, it is your choice. You have autonomy. You can always step away.

Amanda Montell (52:42)

Yeah. I think what Watcher Back means to me is we need to think a little bit more critically and with more awareness about the ageism and sexism and the political atmosphere that is all contributing to this rise in Botox. Yeah, Honestly, it's all making me want to get it less. I mean, I'm joking throughout this episode about, like, having a Botox appointment on the books, and I do, but I'm reckoning with that right now. And being able to see faces like Jessie Buckley's on screen had a really positive impact on me. Seeing Nicole Kidman's frownless forehead on screen is a tragedy. And so, yeah, I'm watching my back and I would suggest others do as well. Yeah, well, that is our show.

Chelsea Charles (53:25)

Thanks so much for listening.

Amanda Montell (53:26)

Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty,

Chelsea Charles (53:30)

but not too culty.

Amanda Montell (53:39)

Sounds like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on modern Irrationality and Word A feminist guide to Taking back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Culture Cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod. Or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com sounds like a cult Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium

Chelsea Charles (54:39)

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Amanda Montell (54:42)

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Chelsea Charles (55:15)

Hey Mom, Happy Mother's Day.

Amanda Montell (55:17)

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