Loading summary
Transcript90 lines
- [00:00]
Amanda Montell
Culties Let me tell you what. Lately I've been trying to get out of the cult of impulse shopping and just be a little bit more intentional about the clothing and home decor items that I am purchasing. And you want to know one brand that I absolutely never regret patronizing? Quince. I am wearing Quince waffle robe right now. I feel like I'm in a luxury hotel, but I'm just in my house. Refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use head to quince.com/for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Quite n c e.com/ for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/ okay culties I recently made a tweak to my lifestyle. I updated my bedding. After years of sleeping on threadbare quilts and nonsense sheets, I discovered Bolin Branch and I am so excited they are sponsoring this episode of Sounds Like a Cult bowl and Branch makes the entire bed high quality cotton sheets, pillowcases, blankets, comforters. Replacing my bedding with bowl and Branch has made my bedroom feel sanctuary. Get 20% off your first order plus free shipping during the Memorial Day sale at bolanbranch.com SLAC with code SLAC that's Bolen Branch B O L L a n d branch.com slac code slac to get 20% off bolanbranch.com slac code slac exclusions apply. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
- [01:37]
Reese Oliver
An us versus Them dichotomy is a thriving key feature of most cults. Is this something that you see at all reflected in chess?
- [01:46]
Danny Wrench
I think that's one of the ones that is like prevalent not just within chess versus other games, but it's also really prevalent within the chess community. This doesn't have to be a game that is only played by the most intellectually elite of our species for seven hours at a time by old white guys in a room blowing cigars. Now you have a lot of people as a part of the growth of the game in a much more just kind of fun and open way. And it's not something that has been welcomed or supported by the old guard, if you will. Chess didn't want to make any effort to make it feel more welcoming and so I think the cult was protecting its own inward almost to Its own detriment.
- [02:21]
Reese Oliver
Mm, that's very cult y. This is Sounds like a Cult. A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I am Reese Oliver. So sounds like a cult's resident grad student and rhetoric scholar. Every week on this show we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cult in culture, from the Amish to fanfiction. To try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult. But is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back or get the fuck out. Because cultishness, like queerness, my friends, it falls along a spectrum. Not all cults are robe wearing, devil worshipping, acid tripping cabals. Some of them just play bunko on Tuesdays. Some of them have some cute little matching sweaters. Some of them are multifaceted like today's cult. Unlike the black and white checkerboard, today's Cult contains many shades of gray among its pawns, grandmasters and rookies alike. Many more shades than 50. Yes, culties. This week we are playing along with the game of chess, the cult of chess. Hello. I'm sure you read the title, I'm
- [03:55]
Danny Wrench
a chess fucking master.
- [03:56]
Reese Oliver
Which is honestly like one of the OG board games like Clue. Get out of here. Operation. Never heard of her. I want chess, baby. We're going back to basics. Chess is a scheme board game that is deceptively simple. It sounds, it looks kind of old fashioned, but you pop the hood up baby, and there is a game chock full of strategic moves, devastating losses and very pompous wins. To get into a little bit of my chess history, Chestery, if you will. Chess is obviously a very dramatic game. There's been like a lot of chess media. I'll talk a little bit more about that in a bit. But some of my favorite chess drama at the moment and the source of most, if not all of my current chess content is at Nemo Chess on Instagram. She is a woman grandmaster, which hey, kind of culty. That. That's a separate category. I don't really like that. Anywho, she basically posts videos of herself absolutely destroying anybody from the ages of 6 to 60 and they have a whole melange of different reactions from horribly insulted, offended and misogynistic to like totally awestruck and also somehow misogynistic. I highly recommend her page. She's awesome. But before we get into the modern ways of the chess world, we need to take it back, baby. We need to break down, stop some basics. Let's get into some technicalities. Chess is a game made for two people. It is played on a checkered board of 64 squares. There are 32 chess pieces divided into two teams, black and white, of obviously 16 pieces each. One king and one queen per side, two rooks, bishops and knights, and eight pawns. Although the origins of chess can be linked all the way back to 7th century India. Holy wow. That is a long time ago. The version of chess that you probably are familiar with today and that my dad had a little version of in our living room that I always refused to play because I was not immediately good at it. That version of chess became standardized in good old 19th century Europe where we're well familiar with her. The International Chess Federation, or World Chess Federation, the acronym of which in French is FIDE, was founded in 1924 in Paris. Today they are based of Switzerland. And you know, this is a rather hot take, but chess has been recognized as a sport by the International olympic committee since 1999. Now culties, I am intrigued to hear your takes on this because I actually have, I think, kind of a hot one. I don't know that I believe chess is a sport and I kind of think that's okay because hear me out. I think games can be just as important. I think the reason that we feel the need to justify behaviors as sports to make them worthy of doing or paying attention to is very militaristic and American and weird. And I think that it just shows how little we value play and working the muscle of our mind. Why does it need to be a sport for it to be important? Sometimes I'm just sitting in and playing a brain game and that is like very impressive. And yeah, we should all watch and it maybe it should be in the Olympics. Maybe there should be a whole games sector of the Olympics. And I'm sure this is getting far too semantic. You know, where a game ends and a sport begins. Does it really matter if we go down this rabbit hol? I think all sports are games, but not all games are sports if we're gonna get into it. Anywho, I'm interested to know if this is me being ignorant of the intricacies of the chess world or if this is maybe something some of you agree with. Chess has been a part of pop culture and the arts for centuries. The sport has been featured in novels, movies and tv, paintings, poems, comics, plays, music, video games. Is anybody seeing the revival of the chess musical with Lea Michele and Aaron Tevette on Broadway? Right? Musical with notoriously terrible writing but very good songs, you know, chess is the perfect foreground for a Broadway musical. It's very dramatic. There's two people in it. That's kind of all you need. From the iconic match between Harry Hermione and Ron versus the chessboard chamber and the 2001 movie Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone to the chess themed 1871 Lewis Carroll novel Through the Looking Glass and what Alice found there. I never thought about the fact that Alice in Wonderland is low key chess themed. I mean, I guess I have thought about it before for it's a very clear motif throughout the film. But I feel like it's not a very highlighted thematic element and I find that fun now that we're talking about chess. And of course, what I am most familiar with the game of chess from, and I'm sure many of you are also familiar with chess from this, the 2020 Netflix original series the Queen's Gambit, based on book of the same name. Chess has seen it all and then some. It is fodder for many a piece of art. And I think that that is because despite its strict rules, chess is an incredibly versat. You can play chess just about anywhere. You can do some little casual quickies with your friends. If you just want to get in and out. You can sit and do a very formal tournament. If you're very serious about your chess and you want to pay entrance fees and you're like trying to move up the ranks of the cult baby. You can also just sit online and not pay attention to your like English lecture and play on chess.com if you're like half the boys I went to high school with, which I guess good for you that you're not like, I don't know, on 4chan or watching porn or something, but like, pay attention. But yeah, you can even play chess boxing if you really needed reassurance that chess is a sport, which is exactly what it sounds like, a hybrid between chess and boxing. It is awesome in the very biblical sense of the word, in the Amanda Montellian sense of the word. But I don't know if it's clear, you guys, I do not know that much about chess. As I said earlier, I had a chessboard growing up and never really interacted with it because I wasn't good at it without ever even trying. And in my brain that was proof that like, me and chess were not to get along. I do regret that now. And you know, I've started thinking maybe it's time for me to rethink chess. I Obviously, like Beth Harmon's fuck ass little Bob. And I love her little outfits. Maybe I want to get in on this whole chess thing. So here to help me uncover it and to tell us all about this checkered sport, we have Danny Wrench, American Chess International master, event organizer, lecturer and commentator. Danny is the co founder and chief chess officer. Holy shit. A cool ass. Title of chess.com. Danny, welcome to Sounds like a Cult.
- [10:44]
Danny Wrench
Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.
- [10:46]
Reese Oliver
Of course. Excited to have you. Could you introduce yourself for our listeners?
- [10:51]
Danny Wrench
My name is Danny Wrench and I am a co founder of Chess.com and I am a cult survivor, if that's what we call it. I was in a cult growing up, the Church of Immortal Consciousness, but I've never been asked to introduce myself. So that sounded that. Hopefully that went okay.
- [11:06]
Reese Oliver
Wow. Okay. I want like the spark notes on this Church of Immortal Consciousness thing first. What's that?
- [11:11]
Danny Wrench
So that was the group that I was born into. It was a spiritual commune in Northern Arizona, Tonto Village, Arizona, just outside of Payson, for those who know the area. And I was a part of a gener generation of kids, probably the first generation of kids that were sort of being born into this group. It had been around for probably five to 10 years before I was born in 1985. But it was a spiritual group founded by Stephen and Trina Camp. Trina Camp was sort of the deity or the guru, if you will. And she was a practicing trance medium, which meant she had been traveling the world trancing a spirit that spoke through her. And at this time, her and her husband, Stephen Camp had decided not to travel, but instead to set up shop and create kind of a community. So that is where my parents entered the picture before I was born, and then I was eventually born. So that's the very PG version of how that came together.
- [12:02]
Reese Oliver
Wow. I mean, it's a little too classical for a Slack episode, but clearly you are very well predisposed for not only this show, but also for joining other cults. I'm happy you seem to have found a less harmful one. At least I hope it's less harmful. I guess we're gonna find out.
- [12:16]
Danny Wrench
Is Chess a less harmful cult? Is that it?
- [12:19]
Reese Oliver
That's the implication.
- [12:20]
Danny Wrench
Although we have joked recently that even the term grandmaster in chess sounds like the name of a cult. So anyway, I do think Chess is a less harmful cult than the one I grew up in. I think like any group, it actually does have its own tendencies to be. What is the right way to say Whether it's not just, not just controlling, but I think that there's an aspect to chess that can really draw people in and become their obsession in a way that that's all they do. There's a parallel there, but yeah, I'm not a part of any, any active cults other than the fact that I, I am a big part of the chess community for sure.
- [12:51]
Reese Oliver
Okay, good, got that solved. So to kick us off, can you just explain your relationship to the cult of chess?
- [12:59]
Danny Wrench
So I'm a co founder of Chess.com, which means I've been in the chess world for a long time and now accidentally, I guess find myself in one of the chairs where we lead a pretty big community. And I though as a kid, part of my story is that I was a child chess prodigy and I actually learned to play when I was still in the collective. The Church of Immortal Consciousness leader Stephen Camp was pretty obsessed with chess, regardless of his other faults. And so the unique part of that is that I was sort of put on a path to playing chess because of my upbringing and that path didn't work out. And the collective that I was in has since fallen apart. But I am still playing chess today and also in a position to make chess a pretty big part of my life. And so yeah, on a day to day basis that is not a very fancy thing. I'm basically just like anybody else and like a tech company, you know, writing emails I guess. But yeah, that's the quick version of how I got there.
- [13:53]
Reese Oliver
Wow. Well, first of all, co founder of a one word website is like such an accomplishment. So I think that in itself you should be very proud of like just Chess.com, not even anything else. Like that's a point of pride right there if I've ever heard one.
- [14:06]
Danny Wrench
Very lucky. But yes, it's true. We did actually get it from a group of people, a group of VCs who really didn't know what they had. And so we are in one of those positions where people go, how did you get Chess.com, like chess? Exactly. So thank you for saying that. And yeah, it's been a lot though. It's been 20 years of grinding and then the pandemic hit and the Queen's Gambit show on Netflix. Netflix hit, which was its own massive blockbuster moment for the game of chess. And so the online chess community has blown up a lot over the last few years.
- [14:33]
Reese Oliver
Oh yeah, I'm sure. And then just before we move on, the other thing I wanted to say is I made a joke about your cult experience, like predisposing you to be involved with chess. And I did not realize that was very literal. Like, that is your truth.
- [14:49]
Danny Wrench
It's totally true. Actually, the craziest part of my story is that like any other kid in the Village, I was just a regular member of the cult. In fact, one of the things about this particular group is there was a very clearly defined hierarchy. And so in some ways it was like leveraged and weaponized kind of openly in terms of where you stood on the totem pole of the group. And in other ways it was more subtle, more manipulative. But let's just say that even as like a nine year old kid, I knew very clearly that me and my mom were very much like at the bottom of the totem pole in the group. Right. And so when I learned to play chess, the summer of 95 when I was nine, which I learned from watching the movie Searching for Bobby Fischer, which is a great movie. Any ever seen it? I kind of went from 0 to 60 in terms of how good I got and how quickly I got good, which thrust me into not just kind of like the limelight of the group, but sort of being like the apple of Stephen Camp's eye. And he was the leader of the group. But it very quickly changed a lot of things about my life. And so literally, I was a child chess prodigy from a cult in Arizona who was told at the time that my spiritual purpose was to become the best chess player in the world. Like, that was part of what was ordained upon me. So that was the thing. And at some point that didn't work out, yet somehow I'm still here, a part of the chess world. And so that's why I wrote a book is because it's hard to make up a story like that unless it's real, you know?
- [16:06]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, well, good thing you, you wrote the book before somebody else did. I was going to say that's, that's some fodder right there.
- [16:12]
Danny Wrench
It's funny because every time the story like was sort of casually discussed before the book was written, that was kind of the response. People were like, is anyone writing a book about this? Like, is there a movie about this? Like, when is that coming out? Right. So, yeah, it's been wild. And sharing it with the chess world, who's known me for a long time, I guess, in terms of being a face of the company and a chess player and a chess comment hater, they've known a certain part of my life, but no One really knew this part of the story and now it's. Now it's out there, right? Can't put it back.
- [16:39]
Reese Oliver
No, no. I can't put the genie back in the bottle.
- [16:45]
Amanda Montell
Culties Let me tell you what. Lately I've been trying to get out of the cult of impulse shopping and just be a little bit more intentional about the clothing and home decor items that I am purchasing. And you want to know one brand that I absolutely never regret patronizing? Quint. I'm dead serious. I love Quince so much. Their pieces feel elevated, effortless. They all go together so you never have to overthink about your wardrobe. I am wearing a Quint's waffle robe right now. I feel like I'm in a luxury hotel, but I'm just in my house. What makes Quince an absolute no brainer is not only the quality of their pieces and I'm talking everything from cashmere sweaters to linen matching sets. Their prices are up to 50, yes 5 0% less than similar brands because Quince works directly with ethical factories, cutting out the middleman so that you get to save on high quality craftsmanship. If you want to be as cozy as me and support Sounds like a cult. Seriously, give Quince a go. I am genuinely obsessed. Refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use head to quince.comslac for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/ for free shipping and 365 day return. Quince.comslac okay culties. I recently made a tweak to my lifestyle that I feel like has officially pushed me into being a full grown adult. I updated my bedding after years of sleeping on threadbare quilts and nonsense sheets. I discovered bowl and Branch and I am so excited they are sponsoring this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. Bowl and Branch makes the entire bed high quality cotton sheets, pillowcases, blankets, comforters. Replacing my bedding with bowl and Branch has made my bedroom feel like a sanctuary someplace a sophisticated grown up would lay their head to rest. It's made me sleep better. I was literally just cuddling up with my dusty rose colored waffle blanket right before I started recording this ad. Let me show it to you. If you're on YouTube you can see this right now. But how cozy is this ocean of waffle fabric? It's breathable. It's soft. I'm obsessed. Get 20 off your first order plus free shipping during the Memorial Day sale at bolandbranch.com SL with code/, that's Bullenbranch B, O, L, L, A, N, D branch.com/codeSL A C to get 20% off Boland branch.com/code SL A C exclusions apply.
- [19:09]
Reese Oliver
Okay, I want to get more into this chess world of your life. If you had to define or pick out a leader of the chess cult, is there one, would you say?
- [19:20]
Danny Wrench
Okay, that's funny. Some would probably say that that's me, honestly, which is an ironic thing to share given my backgr having literally been in a cult. You know, the chess world is big. But one of the things about Chess.com is we have kind of accidentally gained a lot of market share. I guess that's the politically correct way to say it. Right? Which is true. And I think we've done a very good job with that market share, and I think we've done a lot to grow and popularize the game. But I think there are people at times who, whether they get banned for cheating on chess.com and they want us to be more transparent with what we do, or whether there's people who want Chess.com to do something else if there's a person to blame at the end of the day, when we do or don't do the thing, I tend to get a lot of that heat. Depending on where you look on Reddit, I would definitely say that there are a lot of things that actually make it. I would argue in my definition of a cult, having been in one, and I'll pretend to at least have an opinion on it for a second. One of the things is that no one owns chess. Like, there are literally thousands of places to play and learn. And while Chess.com does have the powerful domain, as you said, we are obviously in a position where we get a lot of members. There are so many more choices available that this is not a world where anyone ever signed up with a covert contract and gave away their agency to a cult leader. And I point that out because I feel very personally attached to that process because, frankly, that was literally what I was born into. My mother had signed a contract, whether overtly or not, to give away her life to the leaders of the collective. And the things that happened from there with my relationship with my mom and my dad and all, all the fallout. Like, I know exactly what that experience can look and feel like and how that can be weaponized and used. And so I always say, like, hey, you are free to go whenever you want. And this isn't even like a cult leader tricking you like there's a lot of other places to play and learn chess. So I debunk the idea that anybody@chess.com would be a cult leader. But if you go beyond me, I mean, I don't know, I think that is really a thing that is great about the game is that it's the original kind of open source. You get to choose your own adventure. I think that many aspects of the top of chess have been too cultish because it has been a very feaster famine culture. I think it is like. It is also gatekept most people who feel like, oh, if I'm not smart enough, then I don't want to play chess. So I'm trying to break down the other aspects of the high level chess cult of elitism. Kind of break that down with a wrecking ball as far as one of the things that Chess.com has tried to do. So that's my long winded answer to say I'm not a cult leader. I think there are people who don't like Chess.com and would probably blame me for some stuff. But I think that one of the things we've really been trying to do is actually change the narrative of the old school way that chess has been viewed. If we want to call that a cult to some degree.
- [21:43]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. Wow. That's a really well thought out answer. Chess strikes me as similar to like Van Life or Plant Parenthood or some of the cults that tend to stray a little. Live youe Life on the show. Not to make any presumptuous assumptions. A lot of the Live youe Lifes what kind of gives them their culty edge is that you can find a leader in them if you really want to. And at that point I think it's kind of up to how. How predispositioned to cultish behavior you as a consumer are. Because on the base level the thing might be like you can play chess with like just your friends or people in the park or whatever. And that's not anything crazy. But if you are an obsessive person or if you're someone who kind of needs something all consuming, you can dial up the cultishness if you want. And I think just something that affects maybe where a cult falls in that scale is how much that leader finds you versus how much you need to seek out that leader.
- [22:33]
Danny Wrench
That's interesting.
- [22:34]
Reese Oliver
And with chess, I do feel, especially if you're the leader, I do feel you're sought, which is I Think point for chess.
- [22:39]
Danny Wrench
Okay, well, that's good to know. And I like how you, how you think about that because I think that that's definitely true for chess that like, depending on where that person is at, I mean, I've met people who chess literally is their religion, it is their God. Like there's both. The game itself, the obsession of chess sort of like can land someone not just in the stereotypical, like this person is very antisocial, whatever, kind of lane savant lane. But even if they present a little bit more savvy in terms of, you know, just social communication skills, their priorities are that becoming the best chess player in the world is first and foremost and sort of they rank every other human being around them based on that. And I think that that's actually been a historical problem for chess, is that it's had like a very clear hierarchy back to like a bit of an analogy of where I grew up. And I think that if you weren't at the top of that hierarchy, it wasn't just that you were famine, because there's only been money at the top of the game for a very long time. I think until the digital kind of revolution that has been on the line. One thing I'll share, I don't know if this relates to other cults, is like there was also a weird elitism by those at the top in terms of even if they were starving and even if the game had a broken economy, it was like, don't tell us how to fix it because we're better than you. Because we're smarter than you. And there was, there's been a lot of that in chess historically. It's like I'm a starving artist. But you don't get to tell me that because, like, I'm better than you and I'm smarter than you. And that part of the game has been something we've also been sort of trying to destroy. Now I sound like I'm trying to destroy chess, which is not totally the goal, but old school ways that I think chess has not made itself accessible or welcoming for anybody, let alone the cultish hierarchy has been something that we've been trying to kind of break down.
- [24:08]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, being aware of your cultishness is definitely the first step in breaking it down. So it sounds like it's not a very warm and fuzzy cult, competitive as it is. So I want to know a little bit more about that. Can you tell me some of the entry and or exit costs to the culture of chess?
- [24:25]
Danny Wrench
Wow. We're down an analogy Road I got to think of this. Let's see. So I'm going to go to the exit first because that one's on the top of my brain. I think the exit cost of chess comes with some self shame and self worth. That unfortunately is a story that people tell themselves which is, ah, I wasn't smart enough to play this game, they were right. Or like I'm not good enough for this. And I think that that's been a highly unfortunate thing that the culture has leaned into because I think on the other hand they're sort of perpetuating. Oh, the best chess players in the world are geniuses, the most elite of our species who should be put on a pedestal and worship when in reality that is also not true. I think like any other kind of niche thing, if you commit your life to it, you can get very, very good at it. And I think, I don't want to say that I'm disparaging chess players that they aren't smart. I think they, I think you can be smart chess player. But I guess what I'm pointing out is that there's no real reason to believe that you have to like, I guess back to your entry point, sign a covert contract. That means I'm all in on this idea that I'm going to be completely obsessed with the game or I'm not allowed to play. And that's been a thing for a long time that was there. In fact me and my co founders just to talk about that, like my story was I had failed as a child chess prodigy and because I didn't become the best chess player in the world, there was like nothing left for me. There was no online community at the time. There was no like place to earn a real living, let alone one that would support a family. There was like a oh you failed so get out kind of opportunity. Because if I wanted to have any other type of business or profession in the game that wasn't trying to become the best player in the world world, it wasn't there for me and my partners. They had never played chess at the same level, but they felt gatekept by most at the top by saying, oh, like you're not really good, then there's no place for you. And there was no like place that celebrated kind of just the fact that we were just playing chess because we love the game and it was fun and we all blunder our queen and it's not that big of a deal. And like that kind of environment just didn't exist. And so I Guess the entry cost was like you're either giving up your life or don't even pretend that you can play here. And by the way, if you fail, it's not just that you failed, it's like your self worth is at stake. Right. In terms of how you feel about yourself, yourself. And I think that is a very heavy cost. And I think kids by the way, feel that cost in chess. Like if you're not careful, like they will very early on understand like the pressure to perform not just for like a parent, but maybe a coach is like, oh, if I don't figure this out, it means I'm not as smart as this other kid. And I just don't think that that's actually a fair way to set that up. I think that you really should have like a you're never losing if you learn mentality. But I think a lot of people just like sports dads living through their kids with T ball, like they're living through their kid is the smartest. And that's actually not a very good, good thing.
- [26:51]
Reese Oliver
No, that's very culty and so dangerous the way that you get caught up and you get very into I guess the, the tighter rings of the cult that you can instrumentalize yourself and it turns into such a zero sum game. That's a very cultish thing.
- [27:05]
Danny Wrench
Zero sum is a good way to put it. Yeah. That's sad because I think a lot of parents are actually okay with that until they're not. They're okay with rewarding the result of what the kid does and not the process as long as the results are good. And then they look back and go, oh, we were really over rewarding the result and our child has all this like self worth wrapped up on whether they please us. And we weren't rewarding the fact that like hey, like actually the fact that you're like busting your ass and willing to play. Like I'm proud of you for that. Right. And I think the chess cult at a scholastic level can have a lot of that. And it can be a reason why a lot of young people drop out. In addition to the fact that many years chess wasn't cool. I think chess is cooler than it used to be. At least I'm going to say that as one of the, one of the cult leaders apparently. But I would say that chess is more cool, but it still has a lot of people drop out too young.
- [27:47]
Reese Oliver
I think that's. You either hear about people that have been playing chess for forever or like very young children that are playing chess. And I feel like amongst people my age, there's not a lot of casual chess players or people who are either recently picking it up or are playing since childhood that still regularly play. I do feel like Chess.com though I will say, to feed into your reputation as cult leader. I do feel like Chess.com is improving that because I see quite a few people in my undergrad classes not paying attention because they were on chess.com.
- [28:15]
Danny Wrench
okay, there you go. We're winning. Thank you for saying that. That is the goal.
- [28:19]
Reese Oliver
It's, I guess some kind a win for the cult.
- [28:21]
Danny Wrench
Win for the cult. No, but what you're saying is true. I think for a long time it was like, oh, I played when I was little, but I don't play anymore. Or I've been playing chess my whole life. Right. But I think what you're saying is true in part because of, you know, I joke. We're trying to tear down the gate with a wrecking ball. I think we, we've been trying to say, look, it doesn't have to be that way. Right. There can be a much more open, inclusive, go in and out of the gate as you please. It doesn't have to be you're obsessed and leaving your family for chess or it's something you did when you were little. And I think there are more people anecdotally and are data would say that there are more people coming back online and playing hopefully in the mid-20s and-30s demographic are playing more chess than before.
- [28:59]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, yeah, hopefully. Get out there, guys. Go play some chess. Okay. What if any, rituals or ritualistic behaviors are performed by chess players?
- [29:10]
Danny Wrench
Wow. Let's see. There's definitely a few. One thing is the pen. People will use the same pen until they lose a game. And in fact, if you watch them, a lot of chess players have like super nervous tics about how they place the pen. Because in chess, when you're playing, playing at a high level, you're supposed to write down your move. It's like a golf score. You have to mark what you got on every hole, basically. And so a chess player will have a lot of. Not just superstitious, but sort of like OCD obsessive type of behavior. That is a thing. I don't know if that counts as a ritual, but I think one thing about chess players is because so much of it is like mental. And you're either in your own head or you're not. There are a lot of things that not just the pen. I've even known Players, I won't call them out by name who like, don't shower if they win. And what that can mean is that if you're really good, you might also really stink.
- [29:55]
Reese Oliver
That's an intimidation tactic.
- [29:57]
Danny Wrench
Exactly. You keep winning. That's not so much the case anymore, but there was a period where that was a thing growing up, for sure. I haven't talked about that a long time. There are some rituals that are mental, and this is interesting as compared to very, very serious and potentially damaging cults that sometimes what you're doing in your own brain, not just to compartmentalize, but, you know, you just sort of justify how you're living your life to kind of not look or not to start pulling on the yar. Because if you pull on it, you never know where it's going to go. Right. So you're doing your own mental gymnastics to make sure that you're in the best state of mind to do what you can do. And I think for chess players, not just superstitious things, but one thing chess players will do is they'll avoid looking at the rating of their opponent. Because chess players have to live in a world where they're obsessed that if they do all the right things that they will always win. It doesn't matter what the rating is of the opponent. They could be a much, much better player or worse. It can kind of like avoid being sort of present to the opportunity and. And I think there are times where that eventually backfires. It's not always thing to have yourself denying how tough a challenge is or how good this person is. It might actually change your preparation. It could be a good thing to be willing to look yourself in the mirror and say, ah, this is going to be really tricky because of this. Some people don't even like looking at ratings. If someone's lower because they don't want to feel like the favorite. They don't want to have the pressure that they have to win because so the mindset can work both ways. And I did a lot of that stuff as a kid. I was also struggling with all kinds of other issues, being in a cult. But I would always have to walk to the bathroom the exact same way. And I would have to avoid like the pattern of like these big hotel ballroom carpets. And what I realized about that behavior now is like a lot of what you're trying to do is control what you can control because you can't control everything else. And so sometimes as a chess player, you're trying to get yourself in the right state of mind by controlling things that don't matter. But at least you feel like you can control something because of the pressure you feel to be smart enough in that moment. So I have never been like analyzed like this as a chess player about the psychology. So I just want to put that out there, that this is unexpected and fun.
- [31:50]
Reese Oliver
It's making me think a lot too, because I'm very much. I love control. I'm a very controlling person. And it does strike me that chess would appeal very much to that because of kind of the algorithmic nature of it. It's kind of about pinning down that last unknown variable and making sure that you're the person who sees more steps ahead than whoever you're playing. And with that, I do think what's always been kind of like mesmerizing to me about chess is that the game in itself, if you're good at it, there's a rhythm to it. It feels very ritualistic in the playing of it in itself. So there's a cultish entrancing quality just to the game. But you have to earn that flow state by being good enough. And it's also like a relationship with your opponent. I think that I find as an actor, that's something that I recognize and I find that special.
- [32:31]
Danny Wrench
I think all of those things are true about chess players. And I like what you said about you have to kind of earn the rhythm. And what I would say is one thing to get to the other side of these. We talked about the rituals and maybe the way that people play. Mental gymnastics. But if you talk about the best chess players who do it well, like you were saying, like they do appreciate that there's an algorithmic. We have to be as perfect as we can be, knowing that we won't be perfect, but we have to try. And they sort of find the zone in that. They sort of find the ability to stay totally focused in the moment. And now it works in reverse where they stop trying to control all these easy things and they focus fully on the hard task. Like Magnus Carlsen is the goat and the best player in the world. And you observe a couple qualities about him when he analyzes the chess and when he talks about it, that he's simultaneously going deeper than you in every position, but also has total short term memory loss. He doesn't think about anything that doesn't matter. So it's like players who are afraid that they. You won't be able to go as deep. You put that angst into something else. Like, let me control how I walk to the bathroom, Let me control how I put the pen. And it sounds like I'm exaggerating, but it really is, like, true. Like, there's like, an emotional anxiety you feel about the fear of whether you're going to be able to perform, and so you put that into ritual. Whereas, like, the best, like, total alphas are, like, actually fully focused on the thing that they know they'll never be able to solve, but it doesn't bother them in that zone, and they don't waste any time on what doesn't matter. And it's like a different mindset that I had. You know, I was never able to achieve a level of chess that Magnus did, even as a professional who played at a very high level. That's an interesting thing about Magnus's psychology that I would say aligns with what you were saying.
- [34:02]
Amanda Montell
Culties. Listen to me very carefully when I tell you that this past weekend I scored a pair of Lululemon leggings for $25. Yes, Lululemon is a cult. But you know what? The price is a big part of that. And I found a loophole, and that loophole is called Whatnot. Let me tell you about it. Whatnot is a very cool way of shopping. I was skeptical when I first heard of it, but it's really fun. It's a live shopping platform, so it's kind of like a community and a live your life sort of way that allows you to shop your favorite brands in addition to discover new ones without pretty much ever having to pay full retail price. I'm talking deals, honey. If you're a fan of thrifting, hello, I am. But you're not always a fan of leaving your house. Whatnot provides you with an experience that I highly recommend. Recommend. Whatnot is actually the largest live shopping marketplace in the country with over 10,000 fashion, beauty, and bag sellers. It is super cool. I highly recommend you check it out. Download the Whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search wh a t n o t whatnot in the App store and start scoring amazing deals. Did you know there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And they found a way to combine THC sea with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods, and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com. they have an incredible line of cannabis gummies, and you can get 20% off your first order@mood.com with promo code CULT. Make sure to Use that promo code Cult so that they know we sent you forget one size fits all supplements. Supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to the mood you're looking for. For example, they've got these Sleepy Time Advanced gummies which are so good for a mind soothing calm each night. That's one of their current best sellers. They've also got these Mind Magic gummies for focused deep work and enhanced creativity. Very interesting to me. Listen, you can find gummies to just get you high pretty much anywhere these days. But. But Mood's functional gummies combine premium federally legal THC with targeted botanicals to help you get into the perfect mood, usually in as little as 15 minutes. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with Code Cult. So head to mood.com, find your functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code Cult when you check out to save 20% on your first order. Try it today@mood.com.
- [36:56]
Reese Oliver
so an us versus them dichotomy is a thriving key feature of most cults. Is this something that you see at all reflected in chess or is that a little harder to find seeing that it is such a solitary sport?
- [37:08]
Danny Wrench
No, it's funny, of all the features, I think that's one of the ones that that is like prevalent not just within chess versus other games and other things that is compared to, but it's also really prevalent within the chess community. The us versus them kind of battle is happening right now every day between like the online. We're young, edgy, fast, fun, diverse. Chess is crazy. We can all blunder. This doesn't have to be a game that is only played by the most intellectual actually elite of our, of our species. And then what we've joked about@chess.com is like old chess where they're like don't try to grow the game and expand it to people who aren't going to try to become the best chess players in the world. And or no, we think that chess should be played for seven hours at a time by old white guys in a room blowing cigar smoke and like that's actually what chess is, right? So it's really interesting that there is a very much us versus them at times with the growth and the explosion of the game that has happened around Covid, around, around the Queen's Gambit and just around the explosion of probably like the smartphone and just how easy it has become to play chess casually. Right. Playing chess casually, like literally was not a thing until the Internet. It was like you were either a chess player committed to going to that club and being in that stuffy room because for whatever reason, if we're good or bad. Right. But that was your thing. Now you have a lot of people as a part of the growth of the game in a much more just kind of fun and open way. And it's not something that has been welcomed or supported by the old guard, if you will. And there are, you know, examples of it all over social media where they try to call out the chess.comgrowth and kind of the younger generation getting into chess and we're kind of like great, like, we love it, we're all on board with it. And then I think outside of the game, I think historically, people, I think have over defended the fact that chess is hard against other games where like what I would say is just as I've been talking about how they got off on the fact that it was elite and super smart and they actually didn't care if you felt bad about yourself if you lost. There was no effort to be like, hey, like, actually chess is really, really great for people. It helps improve their critical thinking skills. Let's keep people playing and let them play with a coach. Make it more accessible. Don't make it so feels bad that if you lose, they don't ever want to, you know, play again. Right. It's a problem. And like there were so many issues as far as chess being compared to other games and they didn't want to make any effort to make it feel more welcoming. And so I think there were those aspects for sure where the cult was protecting its own inward almost to its own detriment.
- [39:28]
Reese Oliver
That's very culty. Yeah. Wow. With a cult that has existed for so long, I mean, I learned in the research of this episode that chess has been around since essentially the seventh century. So there is bound to be some generational splits along the way. And I guess it's a point against cultishness because I do think there's a degree of flexibility that's necessary to withstand the different social forces of generation after generation after generation and even technological medium after medium after medium from something that was so tactile to now chess.com being the predominant mode of chess playing, I would assume. Yeah, that goes to show, you know, what do they say? Cult plus time equals religion. And is chess going to become a religion? When are we getting there?
- [40:09]
Danny Wrench
That's funny. Again, it probably already is for some. But it's funny how you talk about it evolving, because one interesting thing you were saying about the requirement to evolve, I think that obviously with a lot of mainstream religions that have kind of made it and survived the printing press and beyond, you sort of try to adapt and be more, at least relatable. Some do it better than others. Right. We don't have to get into all that. That's your expertise. But I would say when it comes to chess, I think the one thing the game did do is it evolved in different ways because it started in, as you said, the seventh century, 600 AD and moved with Alexander the Great and the whole Persian Conquest empire army. But there were multiple different stages throughout Europe where it probably would have been more on the verge of dying without a little bit of influence to sort of speed it up. And Queen Isabella of Spain, for example, is the one who invented the queen, because at that time she was probably the most powerful human on the planet. And before that, there wasn't actually a very dominant piece. Yeah, a lot of people don't know that. It's a fun fact that she literally said, like, no, like, we're not going to have the king and queen being slow. The queen is going to be the most powerful piece. And that actually ended up being super critical to making the game more interesting and entertaining. And there were other things, too, as far as, you know, little rules that I think were important. And I don't know what the time machine would tell us if back then, I would bet there were a lot of people, like, saying, queen Isabella, you know, whatever, for whatever reason, not wanting that, but she. She did it anyway. Right. And I think that there are probably old guards that try to protect and keep it dysfunctional, even if it is to their own detriment for as long as they can.
- [41:32]
Reese Oliver
It's always going to be Scrooges. Whatever. Screw them. Okay, just two more questions. This is a not so fun one. What were the most devastating effects of the chess cult that you have witnessed? But you can also round it out by answering some of the most positive impacts that you've seen.
- [41:49]
Danny Wrench
Okay. And, well, I have my own cult, too, so my relationship with chess and the cult that I grew up in was very tied. So I'll answer it very personally first and then I'll try to talk about the chess world abroad. But again, so my crazy story is because the cult leader was obsessed with chess. He orchestrated an abduction and took me away from my mom at the age of 12. And I was put on a path to play chess with all of my life and self worth being wrapped up in this idea that I was going to become a chess world champion. And so I'm in therapy and have been and will be for the rest of my life, just making sure, you know, and also I think as far as like lasting effects, because I was told my purpose is to become a world champion, it took me a long time to separate. That purpose is not like an achievement. It is the why you do a thing. It is the reasons you do anything right. Your, your thing you do could be podcasting or chess or be a lawyer or whatever. And I had a lot of issues and damage around my own self worth because I thought given that I had failed to become the world chess champion, that I was not good. And literally, and I think all the spirit spiritual shit that was wrapped up in that for chess, it made my relationship status with chess very complicated. Like I hated the game. It was like it was both mentor and tour mentor. And the part of it that was so difficult and had left such a, such a wound in my personal life, in my life with my family. That is a very personal answer. In the truth, that it was a very difficult game for me to continue to want to be a part of before chess.com and the opportunity came along that we now have. And the second thing I would say that maybe the chess world has done as far as the wounds, I touched on a bunch in terms of, I guess the financial ecosystem, that there were too many people okay with the status quo in terms of there not really being any real interest more broadly for the game, there not being any commercial interest or any real way for the game to continue to be played for a kid who wasn't going to become a prodigy. And even for the prodigies, it probably wasn't healthy. And I just think that the chess world fought its own evolution and fought opening up the gates for other people for way, way too long. And I think that that is changing. So my personal answer is a little more traumatic and I think just kind of wrapping a ribbon on what Chess.com has tried to do differently. You know, my professional answer is that the chess world was just its own worst enemy for way, way too long.
- [43:54]
Reese Oliver
So I have just one more question for you. First of all, I am so sorry that you went through that. And I also just want to say thank you for being so Vulnerable with not just me, but also our listeners. And I know it really helps paint an in depth picture of just how entangled that these, like, seemingly more harmless cults can get with forces of actual mass manipulation. It's, it's, you know, it's a scary world out there. So we need to be aware of even our hobbies, we need to have no blinders on. So with that in mind, my last question for you is, what advice would you give to someone who is maybe taking their relationship with chess a little too seriously, needs to chill out a little?
- [44:38]
Danny Wrench
That is a great question. Yeah. I think one of the unfortunate obsessions with chess is that after you lose a game, you have this immediate emotional response of, oh, I'm not as smart as this person. Or at least in that game I was outsmarted. And they remove like the objectivity of it was just one game versus an overall kind of indictment of your character. And what ends up happening next is because you feel, oh, I'm not smart. I have to figure out why I lost. And what happens is I think people move too quickly to analyzing and to trying to address what went wrong before the. They've had time to process and I guess even to say to grieve. I know that's a big word to use for just losing a game. But the truth is, like, any loss in life is like, you have to have a moment to like, feel it and to grieve it and to go, that sucked. And to actually, I mean, if you need to cry, let yourself cry. I've cried after a lot of chess games and like, one of the things I learned that was really fucked up and done with me wrong for all the spiritual reasons in the cult. But then I started to see parents doing it when I was teaching before chess.com and I really, when I was a young, a young person with no kids, like, I would, I would come down hard on the parents the other way and be like, hey, you're actually making not just a mistake in terms of that person's relationship with the game because you're like coming down on them about why they lost when they haven't had time to grieve and process. But science has borne out that my intuition there as a, as a young damaged teen ended up being right. That like, it's actually not even productive to try to dive too deeply into your mistakes when you haven't actually processed your emotions. Because what happens is your brain actually ties that losing and hard feelings are associated with learning. And then you stop wanting to learn. Because you end up in a spot where you feel like every time you're reviewing your mistakes, it hurts your heart and it hurts your feelings, which doesn't have to be the case. You can actually give yourself enough time to process and to grieve. And then when you're ready, go dive into the game, Figure out where you went wrong, where you are a little bit more just, like, stable, and it doesn't hurt your feelings anymore that you lost. And if I could be on any pedestal to like parents and chess players, I would be like, you don't have to tie your emotional body up. And whether or not. Or let's say why you lost the game. And when people do that too quickly, over time, you start to associate learning with. With bad feelings, and then you don't want to learn anymore. And that. That's a huge mistake people make with chess.
- [46:42]
Reese Oliver
Wow, that's incredibly wise. That's a little tidbit of wisdom that I did not expect to hear today. Learning about chess. I feel like that's widely applicable to not just chess.
- [46:52]
Danny Wrench
It is. And as a dad with kids, I will say it is. And I also have struggled with it many times because it's hard because as a person and a parent, like, you can. And so you think you're doing the right thing. But, like, the more like, if I could, like, you know, the wise meditation, be like, don't do that. Don't associate the biggest feelings you have with these learning opportunities, because it will backfire with time and people will lose their motivation to want to improve.
- [47:14]
Reese Oliver
Your animal brain will not like it. You are not bigger than it. I promise. So now we get to play a fun little game. So this is a game that we call culty quotes. So I am going to read you a quote, and you are going to have to guess if it is from a grandmaster or a classic cult leader.
- [47:38]
Danny Wrench
Oh, my gosh, this is awesome.
- [47:39]
Reese Oliver
Okay, quote number one. You must take your opponent into a deep, dark forest in which two plus two equals five, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.
- [47:49]
Danny Wrench
I know that quote. It's Mikel Tal. That's a grandmaster. I know that quote. Unfortunately, I'm a good cult member. I know that one. That is a chess cult.
- [47:56]
Reese Oliver
And that's an iconic. Whoa.
- [47:59]
Danny Wrench
It's quite the quote. It sounds pretty dark, right? That's pretty dark.
- [48:02]
Reese Oliver
It's pretty metal. Okay, next quote. I'm Jesus Christ. Whether you want to accept it or not, I don't care.
- [48:10]
Danny Wrench
That's gotta be a cult leader.
- [48:12]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, that One's Manson.
- [48:13]
Danny Wrench
Okay. I was gonna say. All right, if that's a chess player, we got problems. All right.
- [48:17]
Reese Oliver
Right. That's. All right. Let's be realistic here, all right? You have to have the fighting spirit. You have to force. Force moves and take chances.
- [48:25]
Danny Wrench
It's gotta be a grandmaster. But I don't know who said that one.
- [48:29]
Reese Oliver
Bobby Fischer.
- [48:29]
Danny Wrench
Ah, Bobby Fischer. Okay, I guess I should know that, but.
- [48:32]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, I feel like the chess language gives it away.
- [48:35]
Danny Wrench
Yeah, I guess moves is one that gives it away, but. Yeah.
- [48:37]
Reese Oliver
Okay. The world doesn't want you to know the truth about your potential, but we will show you.
- [48:42]
Danny Wrench
That could go both ways. That's definitely a cult leader. But that could go both ways. That's a cult leader. But who is it?
- [48:49]
Reese Oliver
That's L. Ron Hubbard, but I'm sure man loved him some chess if I had to put money on it.
- [48:54]
Danny Wrench
Yeah, I bet that's so too.
- [48:55]
Reese Oliver
Okay. A bad plan is better than none at all.
- [48:58]
Danny Wrench
That's gotta be. Yeah, that's a chess player. That's a grandmaster.
- [49:01]
Reese Oliver
He's going through the archives. Yeah, that's Frank Marshall.
- [49:03]
Danny Wrench
Frank Marshall, Yeah. Okay, good.
- [49:05]
Reese Oliver
And last one. It is the aim of the modern school not to treat every position according to one general law, but according to the principle inherent in the position.
- [49:15]
Danny Wrench
Definitely a chess player. And is that a. Is that Botvinnik?
- [49:18]
Reese Oliver
No, that is Richard Reddy.
- [49:20]
Danny Wrench
Oh, Richard Reddy. Okay, ready? That's a good one. Okay. I thought it was bot. Finnick. He's the father of the Soviet chess school cult. If there was one, that would be Botvinnik, but. Okay, ready's a good one.
- [49:29]
Reese Oliver
Okay, I see. Well, I'm happy that I've been schooled. I have certainly learned me a thing. I hope you've sought you a thing. Danny, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can the listeners find you?
- [49:41]
Danny Wrench
This is awesome. Thank you for having me. What am I. I'm on chess.com. i'm on the Twitters and the Instagrams and all the stuff at Daniel Wrench, Annie Wrench. But I do content and broadcast commentary for Chess.com a lot. And. And, yeah, I. I recently wrote a. Wrote a memoir about my childhood and. And the wild times of chess and the chess cult and the cult that I was in. So anywhere you want to Google.
- [50:02]
Reese Oliver
All right, thank you so much. Well, culties, I don't know about you, but I feel like I am enlightened and I now know much more about chess than I ever did before. And I feel like. Let me at Ms. Anya Taylor joy I can tussle, but I guess it is up to me to give a solo verdict this week. And I think in its current iteration it is a live your life. Just because anything that gets people off of TikTok is a live your life in my opinion. Like God, use your brain. Even if it's on chess. Dr. Especially if it's on chess.com Danny's awesome. Go play some chess. Go learn some chess. Maybe. Should I learn chess? Should we learn chess? Culties Chess Club Thoughts? Anywho, Culties. That is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Join us for a new cult next week and in the meantime, stay culty but not too culty.
- [51:10]
Amanda Montell
Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Kolb. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod. Or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free@patreon.com SoundsLikeACult Craving something specific? From global flavors to viral snacks, TikTok has it all.
- [52:04]
Reese Oliver
If you can dream it, you can
- [52:06]
Amanda Montell
make it right at home. Find your next favorite dish on TikTok. Want to get more work done with less effort? On TikTok, creators are sharing AI automation tips that save time and deliver better results. Tap to discover try TikTok now.