The Cult of Christian Nationalism

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sounds Like a Cult – “The Cult of Christian Nationalism”

Hosts: Amanda Montel, Reese Oliver
Guest: Jenny Gage (Life Take Two)
Date: April 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the controversial and urgent topic of Christian nationalism in the United States, dissecting its ideology, influence, and culty characteristics. The hosts, Amanda and Reese, are joined by ex-Christian nationalist and ex-Mormon Jenny Gage (Life Take Two), who shares a personal, behind-the-scenes account of what it’s like to buy into and ultimately break free from this movement. The discussion explores the intersection of religion and politics, identity, cultic language, gender dynamics, and the growing appeal of Christian nationalism among younger Americans.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Christian Nationalism

[07:49] Amanda & Reese begin with historical context, explaining how Christian nationalism is:

• The belief that America is and should be a specifically Christian nation, defined by a conservative, white, heteronormative identity.
• Less about personal faith, more about enforcing “God’s will” through control of politics, culture, and identity ([08:28]).
• According to sociologists, this movement is gaining strength, seeking to legislate supremacy rather than spread beliefs organically.

Key quote:

“White supremacy and patriarchy have always been foundational to American Christianity as it's been practiced…we're kind of just becoming sensitive to it and critical of it now.” – Amanda ([09:54])

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2. The Seven Mountains Mandate

[11:56] Reese introduces the “Seven Mountains Mandate” (core to charismatic Christian nationalism), which aims to gain control over:

• Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Business, and the Arts.
• The concept has influenced online spaces, viral controversies (like TikTok’s 7M Films and the Netflix doc “Dancing for the Devil”), and mega-churches.

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3. Not All Christians

[13:57] Hosts clarify many regular Christians do not buy into Christian nationalism;

• Often, those most militant about Christian nationalism are “cultural Christians” rather than devout congregants.
• Groups like Christians Against Christian Nationalism emerge, promoting faith rooted in love and democracy.
• The movement is often about “power, identity, and control—the creation of a patriarchal white ethnostate.” ([15:45])

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4. Christian Nationalism in Politics and Culture

[16:20] Amanda & Reese detail how:

• Christian nationalism was visible during the January 6th insurrection: religious language, Christian flags, militant rhetoric ([17:48]).
• The belief system frames political conflict as spiritual warfare; “social change is a supernatural supernational mission.”

Key quote:

“It sounds like the plot of a video game, but their Kayfabe went a little too far.” – Amanda ([17:48])

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5. Interview with Jenny Gage – Life Take Two

Jenny’s Background & Deconstruction

[22:26] Jenny introduces herself as a former Mormon, ex-Christian nationalist, and ex-“trad wife,” who left her church and marriage in her 40s:

• Her journey started after a pivotal, sickening moment in church when confronted with explicitly homophobic (and previously antisemitic, sexist) doctrine ([27:43]).
• Significant exposure to “real-life” LGBTQ people through her MLM (essential oils) community caused her cognitive dissonance—contrary to everything she was taught, they were “the nicest people.”

Memorable anecdote:

“So you tried to start a pyramid scheme. Instead you joined a coven. I’m loving this.” – Amanda ([32:29])

Where Do Christian Nationalists Gather?

• Unlike classic cults, modern cults use invisible boundaries, online communities, and lifestyle immersion ([33:54]).
• “You will not step out of that invisible fence because if you do, like me being friends with the lesbians, that was kind of zapping my neck a little bit.” – Jenny ([34:37])

Key quote:

“Donald Trump comes along and what he did was he pulled all of these Christian nationalist cults under his big tent.” – Jenny ([37:02])

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6. Culty Beliefs and Their Justifications

[42:26] Amanda & Reese ask Jenny about the extremity of her beliefs:

• “I believed the Constitution was inspired by God and it was just a placeholder for Jesus Christ to come back and rule and reign…the whole government was going to be done away with anyway.” ([42:43])
• She literally let these beliefs dictate life decisions like her mortgage and life insurance.

Memorable moment:

“I don’t know if we should do a 30 year mortgage because Jesus is probably coming back before that.” – Jenny ([43:51])

The Cult Escape Trajectory

• After leaving her faith and marriage, Jenny describes the void and tendency to swing between extremes (from culty purity to “ho phase”) before finding balance—often repeating cultic patterns in new relationships.

Key quote:

“That nihilistic void that you get plunged into after leaving a high control religion like Mormonism is incredibly intense.” ([46:27])

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7. Gender Dynamics & Power

[52:15] Amanda explores the role of women:

• Women are used as “bait” or “advertisers”—pretty, subservient, and incentivized to maintain the cult’s appearance of happiness and virtue.
• Men are motivated by promises of “pretty wives, sex for life, children, and status.”

Memorable moment:

“Her body belongs to you…you get children…really, I was an emotional support pet to Jake and to everybody around me too.” – Jenny ([52:24]) “I was the recruiter for my neighbors and everybody around me in the Mormon Church in the alt right community.” – Jenny ([55:30])

Aesthetic and Identity:

• Cultic standards enforce hyper-masculinity and hyper-femininity; “it’s so homoerotic, but also homophobic at the same time” ([63:01])

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8. Culty Language & Thought Control

[56:32] Amanda & Jenny discuss language as a tool for control:

• Buzzwords shut down inquiry, e.g., “Doubt your doubts,” “Stay in the boat,” “Put on the armor of God.” ([57:17])
• “If I ever doubted anything…that was Satan whispering in my ear so that he could taint me.” – Jenny ([57:17])
• Particularly diabolical cliché: “You can leave the church, but you can’t leave the church alone.” ([60:01])

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9. Blurring Religion and Politics

[66:08] Mandy and Reese ask how these beliefs impact voting, schools, and society.

• Christian nationalist values seek dominance in every social sphere (Seven Mountains): arts, media, business, education, government, finances ([67:19]).

Key quote:

“As a Christian nationalist, I believed [the Seven Mountains] should be controlled by religious people like me because God called and chose me to be in charge of everything.” – Jenny ([67:19])

Cult Leaders

• Donald Trump is identified as the “charismatic leader” who unites Christian nationalism under one “big tent.” Mega-church pastors and media personalities like Charlie Kirk have significant influence ([69:10]).

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10. Why Christian Nationalism Is Gaining Ground

[71:00] Amanda & Reese:

• It appeals to those seeking order in a chaotic world (post-pandemic, culture wars, etc.)
• “One of the biggest movements right now in America is just people leaning back into tradition.”

Key quote:

“Religion is the biggest money maker in all of America…my ex-husband and I paid about $300,000 in tithing in a 2014 year marriage…I have no retirement…While the Mormon church is worth almost a trillion dollars… they sold me nothing.” – Jenny ([72:53])

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11. Advice for Those Leaving

[74:31] Jenny’s advice for anyone doubting Christian nationalism or similar cultic groups:

• Go “no contact” with the religion/group to gain perspective.
• The pain, loss, and identity crisis are real but lead to the greatest happiness and freedom on the other side.
• “On the other side of rock bottom is the greatest happiness and freedom that you can ever have.”

Key quote:

“If you’re doubting your faith… tie a knot, hold onto the rope. It’s going to be a bumpy ride. But that bumpy ride is the only thing that separates you from the life of your dreams and a relationship with other people and yourself that you could never even dream of.” – Jenny ([77:12])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the culty “trend cycle”:

  “The pace in which people are folding in and out of cults is increasing…the cultishness cycle is shortening.” – Reese ([06:46])

• On representation:

  “If you have a First Corinthians reference in your Instagram bio, you talked shit about every girl behind their back in high school.” – Amanda ([15:10])

• On dehumanization:

  “I was an emotional support pet to Jake and to everybody around me.” – Jenny ([52:24])

• On manliness:

  “Men have to prove that they're men to everyone around them because they're afraid of being gay. And honestly, I think that they're all gay…I grew up in this community and they love each other so much…it's so homoerotic, but also homophobic at the same time.” – Jenny ([62:16], [63:01])

• On hope:

  "I literally am happier than I have ever been. I never was happy for 44 years, until the day I walked away from my faith and the abusive man and the people that were toxic." – Jenny ([75:00])

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Timestamps: Important Segments

• [03:15] Topic Introduction: Framing “Christian Nationalism” as the episode’s cult focus
• [07:49] Defining and historicizing Christian nationalism
• [11:56] The Seven Mountains Mandate
• [16:20] Christian nationalism’s role in January 6
• [22:26] Interview with Jenny Gage begins
• [27:43] Jenny’s epiphany moment and decision to leave
• [33:54] Modern cults, community, and “invisible fences”
• [42:43] Outright cultiest beliefs and their life consequences
• [46:27] The cult escape trajectory and aftermath
• [52:15] Gender roles and exploitation
• [56:32] Language as a tool of cultic control
• [66:08] Politics, schools, Seven Mountains in daily life
• [69:10] Charismatic leaders: Trump, Kirk, churches
• [71:00] Why is Christian nationalism rising?
• [74:31] Jenny’s advice for deconstructing from cultic groups

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Host Verdict

• Categorization: Christian Nationalism is an “even get the fuck out” cult ([82:00]).
• Final Thought:

  “This ideology is part of the death of our society as it was part of the birth.” – Amanda ([82:16])

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Where to Find Jenny Gage

• YouTube: Life Take Two
• TikTok: @LifeTakeTwo

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Tone & Style

The episode is witty, irreverent, candid, and unflinching—balancing humor with deep emotional honesty, particularly via Jenny’s personal story. The hosts use their signature playful banter while never minimizing the seriousness of cultic control and its consequences.

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For Listeners

This episode is a revealing, multi-faceted exploration of how Christian nationalism operates—with the pain and hope of deconstruction at its core. It’s as much about reclaiming personal agency as it is about warning of the dangers inherent in religious-political cults.

“Stay culty, but not too.”

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

[C]

I believed that the Constitution was inspired by God and it was just a placeholder for Jesus Christ to come back and rule and reign. I believe that so much that when I was 21 years old and I bought my first house I was like I don't know if we should do a 30 year mortgage because Jesus is probably coming back before that so I don't need life insurance.

[A]

The proof is in the pudding. That's how hardcore you believed it when your insurance policy reflects it.

[D]

Entirely true.

[A]

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of

[B]

books including Cultish and the Age of Magical Overthinking.

[D]

And I'm your co host Reese Oliver, sounds like a Cult's resident rhetoric scholar.

[A]

Every week on this show we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cult in culture, from Trader Joe's to Satan. Satanists. To try and answer the big question,

[D]

this group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

[C]

And if so, which of our cult

[D]

categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back or get the fuck out.

[A]

Because here's the thing. What even is a cult these days? During this time when our relationship to community and purpose is weirder than ever, culty groups can be, in our opinion, allegedly as mild as American Girl doll lovers or as insidious as anti vaxxers. This show is predicated on the belief that cultishness exists on a spectrum. And we're here to figure out where along that spectrum your faves fall.

[D]

Drop in the comments. Which American Girl doll you guys think would be an anti vaxxer? My money's on Kirsten. Anywho, today's topic. I'm excited, guys. It is draped in red, white and biblical verses armed with crosses in one hand, political power in the other. It is a cult that promises divine authority, moral purity, and a mandate to reshape the nation in God's holy image. Or at least this cult's version of it. No, we are not talking about the Children of God or the Way International. We're talking about something much more scarier.

[C]

Christian nationalism. Dun dun dun dun.

[A]

Wow. Doing our own sound effects. Multi talented.

[D]

Christian nationalism, a movement that may be as old as our republic is, but is also somehow as urgent as your

[C]

next school board election.

[D]

Which is urgent. You should be participating in those people.

[A]

Reese, how are you feeling going into today's recording?

[D]

I feel good. This is one of those topics that I'm excited to crack into because I feel like it bubbles up along the fringes of a lot of the groups we've covered before. Like, you know, we've covered the incels, we've covered conservative youth activism, Trad wives, of course. Tradwives, of course. We've just covered a lot of cults that have brushed up against Christian nationalism and I'm excited to be like looking it in its face and saying, I think you are the common denominator. You little trickster, you.

[A]

Yes, I completely agree. I feel empowered in sounds like a cult's political era. God, it's just like so interesting how the general cultural morale in the US informs what topics we cover on the show. When morale is high, we're just out here tee heeheing about Ikea and I don't know when was morale high.

[D]

Sephora?

[A]

I don't yeah, the show leans a little jokeier, but then I remember, like, oh, no, we actually do have a platform to more seriously and soberly point out how cultist ideology shows up in places you might not think to look. And during this time, I think, yeah, let's fucking go. Let's use that platform. And I especially feel empowered ever since our Maga Wives episode was so well received. Like, people are out here saying that was their fave episode and sounds like a cult's history. So I'm like, okay, you want to

[B]

know what we really think?

[D]

You want to hear your thoughts repeated

[C]

back to you in the form of our thoughts?

[D]

We can give you that.

[A]

We are going to get so much juicy insight in a bit because our special guest today is an ex Christian nationalist who has come forward and built her own online presence, speaking really candidly about the ideology that she sincerely held and how she ended up rejecting it. And hopefully this will give us some insight because it's one thing to talk to current Disney adults about what the fuck is wrong with them, to do that with love. Complimentary. But it's quite another thing to learn about what was going on in the heart and mind of this real human woman who thought that Jesus had sent Trump to save the nation. I can't even, like, say it. It doesn't taste good to say so

[D]

conspiratorial sounding when you're on the outside of it. And it just goes to show how culty it is that it becomes so commonplace and legitimate political ideology in your eyes once you're in it. And it's also crazy to me, the pace in which people are folding in and out of cults is increasing. Like the trend cycle, it's shortening. I feel like the cultishness cycle is shortening. It used to be like, you know, your dad would be in one cult until he was so and so age and then he would leave and then that would be kind of it. And now it's like within your lifetime you can join and leave like five or six different little cults.

[A]

Yeah, cults don't even have pensions anymore. Cults don't even come with benefits anymore.

[D]

There's not even a sunk cost fallacy aspect to be being in half of these cults anymore.

[A]

No, I know, literally, because you've only been there for five minutes. But at the same time, like, a lot of emotions can happen in five minutes.

[D]

And I think a lot of the cults do find their moment in their upswing and have such short lives because they hinge themselves on such topical things and they make you feel like those topical moments are forever and then they're not. And then you realize that you were shouting into Starbucks over some cups looking crazy.

[A]

Okay, before we get into our interview, we do want to give a bit of background to define Christian nationalism because. Because despite the fact that this label is fairly self explanatory, I don't think I fully appreciated like every contour of what Christian nationalism was and what it meant until we started doing some research for this episode and until I started watching our guests content. So we want to kind of set the stage with a bit of history. A question of the ages is how did we get from a constitution allegedly predicated on a separation of church and

[B]

state, emphasis on the word allegedly, to.

[A]

To shameless prayer sessions at proud boy rallies. Now, according to a study penned by sociologists Samuel Perry, Andrew Whitehead and Joshua Grubbs titled Save the Economy, Liberty and Yourself, Christian Nationalism and Americans views on government COVID 19 restrictions. Christian nationalism is the belief that America should be defined by a very specific kind of Christian identity. White, conservative, straight and wrapped in the flag. The way that these sociologists conceive of Christian nationalism is that it's less about earnest faith and more about control through politics, religion and ethnicity all rolled into one mission that says God wants us in power. This movement sounds kind of extremely fucked up and something that should have long been put to bed, but it's actually been gaining momentum, as you can probably tell. Actually, you know what I love? I feel like in Shark Tank pitches this normally happens and I always think it's so funny. And I feel like we've done this on sounds like a hole before. Whenever you listen to like three or more things that something can accomplish, like, oh my God, the scrub daddy can clean, wash and even scrub. But the thing that they put last after the word even is the thing that it can most obviously do.

[D]

I have also I find that funny because it sounds like it should be something contradictory or unexpected.

[A]

Exactly. I always think that's so funny. So anyway, shockingly, the movement has gained momentum in recent decades, even among white evangelicals who argue that the US is and should remain a Christian nation. Now, according to a paper on Christian nationalism and the insurrection, that's like kind of a composite of the work of a bunch of different scholars. We'll link it on our show notes. Nearly half of Americans now believe that Christianity should influence government policy. Journalist Katherine Stewart put it bluntly. She said the goal of Christian nationalism isn't to enrich democracy, but it's to replace it. Meanwhile, other scholars have pointed out that white supremacy and patriarchy have always been foundational to American Christianity as it's been practiced. So there's nothing new. We're kind of just becoming sensitive to it and critical of it now. That said, Christian nationalists have shifted from evangelizing to more explicitly enforcing. These days, the sentiment seems to be like, Jesus literally wrote this bill. And that's the culty pivot when a group kind of moves from trying to spread its message to trying to legislate its supremacy.

[D]

So this ideology has, believe it or not, seeped into US Politics.

[A]

It's steeped into even US Politics. Sorry, this is even US Politics.

[D]

The most unlikely of places. But yeah, leaders like the student to be stepping down, Ms. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Speaker Mike Johnson, and Ron DeSantis are all very open about their alignment with Christian nationalist ideals. In 2022, Lauren Boebert claimed that the church is supposed to direct the government, dismissing separation of church and state as junk. Yeah, Lauren, we know how much you like junk. We know how much you like rubbing all up on junk in the middle of a theater. No decency. No decency.

[A]

Sick burn.

[D]

One core belief from one of the major players in the Christian nationalism scene, AKA the new Apostolic Reformat, a far right Christian movement is the Seven Mountains Mandate, which we will hear about a little bit later from our guest. This essentially calls Christians to mobilize, to gain power and spread Christian dominion in seven key areas of culture being religion, family, education, government, media, business, and the arts. It's giving Project 2025, completely popularized by Lance Wallnau and Bill Johnson, 7 Mountains Mandate has become a key framework for charismatic Christians seeking cultural dominance. And its influence has even reached Hollywood. Even Hollywood. Nowhere is safe if corruption has reached my good, pure Hollywood.

[A]

There's even corruption in Hollywood. Okay, but hit us with an example.

[D]

So in 2022, TikTok dancer Miranda Derek was at the center of a viral controversy involving her Management Company, 7M Films. Y' all remember episode on 7M?

[A]

Well, did you know we took that episode down? Sounds like a cult. Okay, sounds like a cult. Had an episode on 7M and I forget why we took it down. We never got a cease and desist. But yeah, we took down the 7M episode. I think just because, I don't know, someone representing us at the time got spooked. But it all comes full circle because I don't think I really internalized what the Seven Mountains were at that time. But it did give that TikTok dancing cult its Namesake. Fascinating.

[D]

Yeah, it was kind of. It was like this TikTok thing seems culty and kind of religiously entwined somehow. And now it's like, oh, no. It's a very clear framework. And this was a TikTok house set up to proliferate this ideology.

[A]

Yeah, it was a Christian nationalist high control hype house for, like, evangelical TikTok dancers. If anyone doesn't know what we're talking about, it's featured in the Netflix docu series Dancing for the Devil.

[D]

Now we're gonna get into some good old infighting. It would not be an episode about Christianity without some infighting. Not all Christians are on board with the whole Christian nationalism thing. A lot of them are really pissed at the Christian nationalists for giving them a bad reputation. In fact, a lot of studies show that people who practice their religion regularly are actually less likely to hold Christian nationalist views. It's often that the cultural Christians, the posers, if you will, not the actual churchgoers who have the love and spirit of Jesus Christ in their heart. It's those posers who are the most militant about the Christian nationalist bs.

[A]

That's a very interesting stat, actually. Like, the Christian I est Christians are not on board.

[D]

Well, yeah, because it's like true virtue signaling in every sense of the word. Like, if you're actually living by your values with integrity, then it will be shown in just the way you conduct yourself and you won't have to do all of this very performative control.

[A]

I wonder if there's a correlation. You know how the worst people are always talking about what empaths are? They are.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

If you have to put a Bible verse in your Instagram bio, you're telling on yourself as performative.

[D]

Sorry, you are. It's kind of like the stereotype that, like, all nurses are like, the meanest girl you ever met in High School.

[A]

100%. If you have a First Corinthians reference in your Instagram bio, you talked shit about every girl behind their back in high school.

[D]

Everyone. And that's okay. We just need you to be real

[A]

about it so you realize that you're mean.

[D]

So there are a few groups, such as Christians Against Christian Nationalism, that have emerged calling for a version of faith that is rooted in love and democracy instead of cultural domination. Who'da thunk? The National Council of Churches even released a formal statement calling Christian nationalism a direct threat to American justice and peace.

[A]

Okay, haven't heard anything about that.

[D]

No. So I feel like it's pretty transparent. Christian nationalism is not actually theologically inclined at all. It's very much so about power, identity and control, the creation of a patriarchal white ethnostate. So even within the faith, this movement is being called out for what it is, which is like a culty power grab hiding behind a St. Christopher.

[A]

So you might be wondering. I was about to say, you might be wondering, how bad can this really get? Sounds fine.

[D]

I think we're watching. I think we're seeing.

[A]

No, you're not wondering that.

[C]

That.

[A]

Because this is obviously bad and we all know how bad it can get, because Christian nationalism is what led to the January 6th insurrection. The January 6th riot atrocity criminal act was a vivid example of Christian nationalism in action. So many of its participants were tied to that new apostolic reformation that we mentioned before, which incorporates militant language like spiritual warfare and sees political battles as religious ones. These folks believe that demonic forces had stolen the election from Trump, who they see as God's chosen leader, and that the capitol became the site of a spiritual shutdown. It sounds like the plot of a video game, but their Kay fabe went a little too far. Real ones know I mispronounced that on purpose, as you may have recalled from the news footage, or if. If you were there. Present at the insurrection were talismans of the Christian nationalist cult, including Christian flags, crosses, shouted prayers. A sociologist named Samuel P. Carey called it as Christian nationalist as it gets. Because for these believers, social change is a supernatural supernational mission, and they are actually soldiers in this holy war against evil. And I think the reason why this all thrives is actually connected to the fact that it feels like a video game, because these people are giving incel gamer, bro.

[D]

They are. And it's a way that they can see themselves as a hero or as like the good participant in a story without actually having to get off their ass or do anything good for their community or anyone around them.

[A]

Essentially, the January 6th insurrection was this really weird, I think, jarring moment for a lot of people who at that point had seen QANON and Christian nationalism as this weird basement, not particularly materially threatening thing. It really came alive in the real world in that moment. This sort of divine mission, evil enemy, sense of urgency that justified extreme action brought to life. Only it wasn't actually a compound in the woods. It was live on CNN at our capitol. It was fucking nuts. But speaking of ice cream with nuts in it, that's gonna make sense in a second, or maybe it never will. Speaking of even nuts, I think it's high time that we get into our interview. We do want to make a few little disclaimers, prefaces, kind of content warnings and trigger warnings. A Our guest is an ex Christian nationalist who specifically grew up Mormon. There are various Christian denominations of Christian nationalism. Mormon is one of them. So our conversation and her experience is not going to represent all of them. I also want to note that we talk about some pretty disturbing subject matter, including racism, violence against women, suicide.

[B]

The word prostitute gets uttered.

[A]

Okay, not by me, not by Rhys. This is an intense conversation. So if you're not feeling like you want to listen to an intense conversation today on Sounds Like a Cult, even though you should because it's fascinating and terrifying and juicy, go back and listen to our Plant Parents episode because that one was really chill.

[C]

Always there for you.

[A]

Yeah, but yeah, stick around for after the break. Wait, we're going to get into it. Oh my God. I am so excited that this podcast is sponsored by article.

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[A]

behind the curtain of this movement, we are honored to have Jenny Gage join us today. Jenny is the creator of the YouTube channel Life Take Two and she used to be an active follower of this

[B]

movement before realizing it wasn't exactly what

[C]

it appeared to be.

[D]

Jenny, welcome to Sounds like a Cult. Could you introduce yourself for our listeners and your relationship to this cult?

[C]

Thank you. Yeah, I'm Jenny and I'm over at Life Take Two. And the reason I'm called Life Take Two is that seven years ago in the middle of Mormon Church one Sunday I had an epiphany I guess and walked out of church that day at age 44, left that cult two weeks later, left the cult of one that I belonged to, which was my marriage to my Mormon returned missionary husband. I call him Stinky Jake on my channel. And sometime during the pandemic as I was deconstructing 44 years inside the alt right, I was a Christian nationalist, white supremacist, trad wife Mormon, all the things prepping for Jesus to come back. And that's a lot to deconstruct. So as I was unpacking that one day, decided to start a little TikTok so I could talk about it and inadvertently kind of pioneered ex Mormon TikTok with a bunch of other little rebels. And here I am today. It's definitely been a long journey and as we talked today I want people to realize that it is a journey to unpack all those bags. And it's been a seven year journey for me and I'm just barely kind of feeling like I'm getting there.

[A]

Thank you for summarizing that. I don't know where to begin. I mean, first of all, I feel like the pandemic was obviously such a kind of cult peak in history because people were reckoning in big existential ways. And some people got out of cults during that time like you, some people got in. TikTok was the new cult compound of sorts of during that time where you could find any sort of community, whether it was a community of defectors or New Agers or whatever it was. And so it's really, really interesting to hear that this whole experience happened for you during the pandemic. I'm curious though, off the bat, what do you think makes Christian nationalism, the movement, the ideology, feel cultish? Like in retrospect, what behaviors or beliefs stand out to you as particularly cult like in kind of the classic sense?

[C]

Oh, that's such a great question. First of all, I guess I should just define what I feel a cult is. And I am somebody who has a high level of expertise and I work with some of the top experts in the field in regards to cults. A cult, you have to have a few ingredients. It's like baking cookies. You have to have a charismatic leader, somebody who is driving the bus. A commune without a leader can be cult like or cultic, but somebody has to be making those decisions. That can be God himself or some type of goddess, or that can be the prophet or the president or somebody else in charge. You have to have some type of ide identity that you wouldn't naturally absorb from the community around you without that being instilled in you. So if you live in a neighborhood and you're just absorbing this is what tennis shoes people wear and this is how we talk and all those things that we absorb as humans organically. Again, that's not a cold. But if you're going to church on Sunday or you're signing up for some type of a seminar and they are infusing you with a personality that is shifting how you would usually operate in the society in which you live. You might be in a cult. Some other things are, you're. You're going to have some information control now. They're your one stop, they're your source where you learn everything. And for me, this was probably the biggest thing that kept me inside of my multi cult life. So for Instance when I was a new mom and I had kids rather than going to the library and checking out parenting books. This is before the Internet when I had kids because I'm, I'm old, I'm a grandma, right? I would go to church on Sunday and I would talk to other women and I would listen to what the prophet said. I would open up my Bible or my Book of Mormon. All of my information if I wanted answers to how to have a better marriage, how to get in shape, how to do anything, all of that information came from within the organization. And then you start to have some things like control. People asking you for money, people telling you what to do, those things in tandem all equal. A high demand organization. And we call it a cult. Yes, yes.

[A]

And we kind of operate on this like, weird spectrum because, I mean, this show is about analyzing not necessarily like the classic cults that you would stereotypically conceive of as a cult, like Heaven's Gate and Scientology. It's more about clocking where cultish influence shows up in everyday life, including, you know, online and groups that don't necessarily seem to have that charismatic leader, but actually maybe secretly they do. It's just maybe the algorithm is the leader. You know, like that's what we're hoping to understand. Not necessarily so that people can leave every culty group that they're a part of, but more so so that we can improve our critical thinking skills and find community more healthily. You described the moment that you realized you had to like stand up and leave as an epiphany. Could you talk a little bit more about that? Like, what do you think led you to that epiphany and what was the experience like from epiphany to departure?

[C]

I have a really unique experience leaving the Mormon Church. So my mom was multi generational. L got married very young and then she went from her childhood to being my mom, where she was just doing like, you know, playing with play DOH and doing play dates. And then she was very cloistered. So she was only playing with other Mormon women. Like she was hanging out with Mormon girls who were having playdates with their kids and stuff. And so like when I had babies, I was multi generations. I had been raised by this very immature mother who was very sheltered and very childlike. And so I start having babies when I'm 22 years old and I had never really grown up. I was never around adults. I spent my day at home in my million dollar house with my babies and doing play dates and stuff. And like as my kids grew up then I kind of matured along with them. So when my kids were in high school, all of their friends were like, you have the coolest mom because she totally acts like a high schooler. Because I had literally never evolved or had any experience. It's not like I had a job where I had to learn like the lingo of adults. I still speak like my teenagers. Here's what happened. I went to church one Sunday, October of 2018, with my husband, Stinky Jake. At the time we were still married and church was just horrible. It was sexist. Like the first hour sacrament meeting, they talked about how that women should stay home and not go out and work. So they were preaching trad wife life. The second hour was anti Semitic. The lesson was on how that the Jews had been the victims of the Holocaust because they had murdered Jesus. So this is what God had planned for them. So the first two hours were shocking enough. I get to the third hour which is all women. Sounds great, right? So like no men, they're off doing their thing and the women get together called Relief Society. And we talked about women's stuff, homemaking and child rearing. And that day, as I sat in my chair, full believing member of the church, I had come to church that day 100% knowing that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was true. The Book of Mormon was my life, right? 10 minutes into the lesson, this little 23 year old teacher gets up and starts bashing her bisexual sister in law who's not even present. She's just the example for the lesson. And I flip open my manual and I realize that the title of this lesson is the Evils of Homosexuality Reality. And the funny thing is that I had always hated gay people because I knew that Heavenly Father hated gay people and they were cursed and evil and satanic. But in that moment, I felt so physically sick that I stood and walked out the door and I told them. I was like, I'm not just going to get a drink, I'm leaving the church right now and it's because of your lesson right here. I texted my husband, he was in the men's class and he met me by the drinking fountain. I was like, we are out of here. I'm not gonna let my kids hear this stuff. Like, if this was the first time we'd been at this church, would you ever want to be part of this? So that's what happened in the moment. And it literally was me just sitting in my seat listening to this lesson, looking at the manual, the evils of homosexuality and feeling physically sick. I had one thought that came to my mind that day, and that thought was Mormons too. Like, you dress up. I don't know if you've watched the secret lives of Mormon wives, but, like, we dress up for Jesus, right? I have spent like an hour and a half in my damn bathroom hot plating my extensions and putting on my Sunday clothes and the nylons and the high heels. Shoes. So that I can come to church and learn to be a better person and love people better. I don't come to church to learn how to hate people. So I resigned at age 44. Now that I've had seven years to deconstruct it, there was actually a moment in my life that led to that. And that was while I was selling doterra, because every Mormon girl has to have an MLM on the side as a tradwife, right? So I'm. I'm selling doterra and someone in my downline start signing up all of these lesbians. And it was the first time in my entire life that I had ever been up close and personal with evildoers. And so they'd come over to my house like, once a week to learn about essential oils. And I couldn't tell them not to come, right? They were the nicest people. We went to convention together. We did classes at my house all the time. And then when I became really sick, then it was these lesbians who owned this naturopathic care center and acupuncture and stuff that were helping me to get better. And that sent me into, like, this cognitive tizzy fit of. I've been told my entire life that lesbians are like the ultimate satanic people, right? And then I become friends with real life lesbians, six of them. And they were the nicest people that I had ever met. So my doterra lesbian downline, I mean, it was like six or seven years later that I was then sitting in that class, faced with that lesson. And I knew in my heart that every single lesbian that I knew all six of them, were the nicest, kindest, most compassionate people in the world. And that's what then gave me that reaction.

[A]

Oh, my God, Silly Mormons don't realize if you get, like a bunch of women in a room with essential oils, like, eventually the lesbians will find them.

[D]

Statistically, it's gonna happen.

[A]

I'm dead. Okay, so you tried to start a pyramid scheme. Instead you joined a coven. I'm loving this.

[C]

Do you know Amanda this week because I talked about this on a Scientology podcast here just a month ago because someone asked me, well, was there a step or two before that? I also had a tragedy in my family around a gay cousin. And I've always been like, that's why. But that was so sort of why it was the lesbians. So this week I've been working on an email that I'm going to send to these lesbians who literally do not know that they changed my life, and sending them my Vanity Fair article and a couple things and just telling them, like, hey, you guys changed my life. And I'm sure I was a booger too.

[A]

We should turn this into a national holiday called national email. Your favorite lesbian day. Whether they know it or not, everyone's life has been changed by six lesbians.

[D]

It's your life's work to identify. Like good Scott Pilgrim.

[A]

Exactly.

[D]

Obviously.

[C]

Alrighty.

[D]

So stereotypically, in some of the more classic cults we talked about earlier, there is a physical location of gathering a church or a temple or a compound of some kind. But modern cults often don't really need a physical space to organize. Many of the cults that we talk about on the show congregate via the interwebs. Are there physical or online spaces where people gather to specifically engage. Engage with Christian nationalism? Like, where would you locate this cult's center from your point of view? So I can stay far away from it?

[C]

Rhys, I love this question. First of all, I think that one of the reasons why people don't recognize cults is that we don't all move to, like, Waco, Texas or whatever. So for me, when I dialogue about the Mormon Church, especially the Mormon Church that I grew up in, because I'm 51, so I grew up in the 70s, people are like, oh, come on, you weren't cold. I have Mormon neighbors. You know, you're just me, mainstream, but it's the cult in your head. And I relate this too. I had a neighbor dog, and he was a big dog. I don't know what he was. He was like one of those type of dogs, would carry, like, a little wooden barrel under his chin, like on the ski slopes in the Alps, right? And they didn't have an actual fence because they had this beautiful modern home. And they didn't want to, like, mar their property with any type of fence. So they had this sunken fence. It was just a wire, and the dog just had a little choke collar. And if this beautiful dog tried to bounce out of the yard, right? It was zap them. Their fence went down for a while and I remember them telling me the fence is down and the dog never leaves. Anyway, that is how most cults operate now because they feed you a bunch of information. You fall in love with the divine charismatic leader, you fall in love with the community, you start to identify as part of this family. Whether that's your Jeep family, your MAGA family, your prepper family, your skinhead family, your Mormon family, whatever that is, you start to relate to. We're all one and we're working on this purpose. And then you will not step out of that invisible fence because if you do like me being friends with the lesbians. That was kind of zapping my neck a little bit. Like, I'm not supposed to be friends with these lesbians, but they're so nice, like they're so good. So that's my allegory for the cults today. Where do they gather? We have so many different flavors of Christian nationalism. Like Baskin Robbins. 32 flavors, right? So there's the Mormon Christian nationalism. They hang out at church, they hang out online with all of the pro lds. You have the evangelicals, everybody with Turning Point usa, They're hanging out in their rich neighborhoods at the mega churches. And like these mega churches are as intense as the Mormon Church. Like Mormon church, it was five days a week during high school. I had seminary as a pull out. Then I had Wednesday night youth activity. We had ward activities on Saturday nights. We had church for three hours on Sunday and then a fireside in the evenings where you'd go back for more church. We had church dances, girls camp, and then I went to Mormon college. So church was literally my life. So that's where all the Mormon Christian nationalists were hanging out there. You know, I think that across the south, that's just their neighborhoods. We had neighbors that were clan that invited us into the kkk. We didn't join, by the way. I always have to say that we were invited, but we declined. And what's happened with Trump is that he has merged. So you may be hanging out all the time on Evangelical TikTok. And so you're seeing all of this messaging and then along comes somebody like Erica Kirk and they're all watching the Turning Point USA podcast and they're all at that funeral. And then we have all of these different little sub cults of Christian nationalism who like, we hate gay people, we don't want trans kids on our SP teams, and we better make sure that nobody aborts a embryo that was just fertilized two days ago. So we hate abortion. So Donald Trump comes along and what he did was he pulled all of these Christian nationalist cults under his big tent.

[D]

The use of the term the big tent is so interesting because for so long that was a phrase that just implied the general political communications sphere, like where every everybody spoke in like the realm of reasonable, socially acceptable opinion. And I do think that the varying flavors of Christian nationalists do fancy themselves the big tent of today. Like the new status quo. And that's scary.

[C]

They're not just the new status quo, they're also the old status quo because God invented America and the Constitution. So they're the new, the old. They're the everything. They're the alpha, the omega, the beginning, the end. They are the Lord's 10.

[A]

And there's a lot of, I mean, if you want to see it as evidence, there's a lot of messaging baked into secular society that you could interpret as support for Christian nationalists. I mean like we say God bless America, we say in God We Trust

[D]

pledge of allegiance in schools, like every morning for my entire childhood it's like,

[A]

yeah, there are separation of church and state allegations in this society. But like in practice, it's not really there.

[C]

It's not.

[B]

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membership okay, what were some of the outright cultiest Christian nationalist beliefs that yes, you held? How were those beliefs justified and how did you dispel them little by little, one by one?

[C]

Okay, I'll give you a really good one. Here's the first thing that comes to mind. I believed because of my Book of Mormon right here and the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith who spoke directly for God that when Elohim and his son Jesus Christ made the earth that there was this little bit of dirt that they particularly had preference for and that was the American continent. And they had so much love for this, this little region of this globe that they had made with their little bare hands that they put the Garden of Eden there in Jackson County, Missouri. So I believed like we went on church history tours, like we paid money to drive across the country from Arizona to Missouri. It's like a 3,000 mile drive. I don't even know it's so far so that we could go and see these stones that Joseph Smith said were some of the stones that were left over from Adam's altar. This was a family vacation. So I believe believed that God himself had like this is where I want all of my children. This is where I want the Garden of Eden. This is where I want Adam and Eve. And then when Adam fell and ate the fruit, then he was cast out. And then of course Cain was cursed to have African American skin, right? And then that God promised that his son Jesus Christ was going to come back to that little space Adam on Diamond. The church owns this, the Mormon Church owns Jackson County, Missouri. And they have built all this stuff to prepare Jesus Christ to come back to rule and reign the entire world during the millennium. And another significant thing that happened in Jackson County, Missouri of course was the restoration of the Mormon gospel because it's so special that Jesus Christ himself came down and told the saints that they were supposed to live there and buy all that land, which they did. So I believed that the Constitution was inspired by God and it was just a placeholder for Jesus Christ to come back and rule and reign. So God gave us Constitution with freedom of religion and democracy and capitalism and all the stuff that we have so that the Gospel could be restored here in this promised land, Zion, so that he could prepare his people for his son's return. And I literally believed so much that Jesus was coming back to America and then like the whole entire government was going to be done away with anyway. Not only would we be a theocracy, but we would be like a godocracy, like Jesus Christ himself sitting on the throne in Jackson County, Missouri, ruling America. I believe that so much that when I was 21 years old and I bought my first house with Stinky Jake, I was like, I don't know if we should do a 30 year mortgage because Jesus is probably coming back before that. So like we didn't buy life insurance because it's like, well, Jesus is coming back, so I don't need life insurance.

[A]

Wow. I mean, the proof is in the pudding. That's how hardcore you believed it when your insurance policy reflects. So a what I'm hearing is that the song I Believe from the musical the Book of Mormon is 100% accurate.

[D]

Entirely true.

[C]

When I heard the Book of Mormon for the first time, so I boycotted that. Like this is so accurate. And then I was like, why is everybody mad about this? Because the Book of Mormon is actually totally accurate. We should be watching it at byu.

[A]

This is stage representation. Okay? These are obviously really, really intense, intense things to believe. And oftentimes when one believes really intense things and then they leave, they like swing way, way, way the other way. And then that ends up being really overwhelming and culty in the opposite sense. And so it takes a really long time to kind of like find a middle ground where, where you like truly connect with a healthy balance of beliefs. Like, how are you with that?

[C]

Thank you for understanding the cult escape trajectory. So I left the church in October of 2018. Two weeks later, I caught Stinky Jake picking up his very last teenage which he said she was 18 prostitute and ended my marriage. So my 24 year marriage and 44 years of faith in Jesus and Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon all came crashing to a halt. So December of that year, I attempted to take my life. I Was rescued by a neighbor girl. I was in a coma for 10 hours, and I still have a brain injury today. And that's actually why, why I'm called Life take two. Everyone's like, oh, it's such a cute thing because you have this all new life. Yes, I have an all new life. But I woke up after the coma in a hospital and I was like, crying, oh, no, I'm still alive. And there was some type of a medical person there in like, scrubs, and he's like, honey, no, this is good. It's like Ron Howard just yelled cut on your life. And yeah, you lost your husband and you lost everything, but now you get a life take two. So when I started TikTok during the pandemic, I was like, I'm going to need at life take two for the guy who was there when I came out of the coma. So first I tried to end my life because that nihilistic void, right? It's like, why am I even getting up and eating breakfast? What even is cereal? Does this spoon exist? The nihilistic void that you get plunged into after leaving a high control religion like Mormonism is incredibly intense and very painful. And I did at the same time as losing my home, losing my money, losing my husband, My entire family cut me off, right? So then from there, where I went was my home phase. Because, honey, like, I didn't have sex with stinky Jake until our wedding night when I was 20 years old. I had spent my whole life in purity culture not even letting my knees show. My shoulders couldn't show because I wore my Mormon garments. So, oh, I swung so far the other way that my first alcohol when I was 44 years old, Walmart red wine, by the way, about three bottles. I was sleeping with little mini bottles of apple whiskey under my pillow that I got from, like, a liquor store on the corner in Gilbert, Arizona. I was like, Starbucks for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. So that was weird. That was a wild time. And I have heard from so many other people who've gone through very similar. You do, you swing the other way. And what tends to happen is you find yourself in another cult because you're programmed to have that charismatic leader who's making decisions for you. You're programmed to have somebody tell you how to think and what to do. So I was trying to make like, this boyfriend be my cult leader now. And then I joined the Christian church right after. After leaving Mormonism. And Jesus was okay with my ho phase because I was forgiven. I had accepted him. But then Like I was trying to turn my Christian pastor into a cult and I was going to Bible study every day of the week. There's all these Bible studies. So I'm like, my bounce out of Mormonism was kind of funny. But then a couple of things happened for me. I started telling my story, you know, as we're building this little XMO hashtag for the first time, you know, on social media, you put something up and then you have people comment and people DM you. And I became friends with all of these other people. It was the first time time I'd ever met anyone else who'd lost their faith. Right. I went the first two years with nobody and then I started to have feedback from other people, started listening to other deconstructionists and got a really good therapist. I've actually been with her for years now, every week. I just saw my therapist yesterday. She's a trauma and abuse therapist. She's been incredible with me, just helping to see what was done to me, the programming, etc and having this network around me. I went through a cult deprogramming. I definitely didn't end up happy on the other side just by accident because I would have stayed in some culture or another for sure. It's taken a lot, lot, lot of work and a lot of good people around me.

[A]

Oh man, the story of you waking up in the hospital gave me chills. Thank you for sharing that whole. It's so important for people to hear because, you know, I think some might think like, oh, just get out, Just leave as soon as you realize that there's something wrong and then all will be well. And that's so often not the case case because when you're conditioned to think that certain power dynamics are normal, then you look for them again. And I think a lot of people can relate to that, whether it relates to like spiritual and political beliefs or not.

[C]

I think one of the hardest things too with leaving Mormonism and leaving a cult or a culty relationship, you know, if you're married to one of those bad guys where your whole life is sucked into that marriage, it's not even just the loss of my beliefs and the community, it was the loss of my personal identity. I went from, from being a child of my heavenly father, a daughter of God, a princess in heaven. I was going to die and become a goddess with Stinky Jake for all of eternity, right? I went from knowing that I was a child of God and that he loved me to I'm just a meat sack, I'm a lump of clay. You know, that nihilism that hit right afterwards like I am meaningless, I don't even exist. And you know, that's one of the most painful things if you're married and you get divorced. I went through that too. It's not just oh, I lost my home and I lost my husband and maybe you actually like your in laws or something and now you have that loss, that relationship. It's I used to be a wife sitting at the table with my husband at night, part of this family. And now I'm the single cat lady living in a condo in Sun City. It's that shift in identity that's so shocking and so difficult. And I see this with people leaving maga when people wake up and then they start to shift that identity and it's like, oh God, who am I now? We never want to shift identity.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds like one of the grave examples exit costs that oftentimes defines a cult. So often with groups like this, the beliefs themselves are nowhere near as important as the community and concept of self that surround them. We wanted to ask, you know, in classic cults there tends to be a pretty interesting gendered power hierarchy. What role do women play in the Christian nationalist movement and specifically how are they both used by and implicit in it?

[C]

Oh, that's such a great question. From my experience living this myself, I just always felt like I was there to be pretty. In many ways I was used as the bait for the men. The men in my crazy alt right community had to work so hard. They're supporting these big families with like four, six, seven kids. They're supporting their stay at home mom, submissive wife, they're working. And then they're also working in the church organization too. So you're retro your business or go to your office job. Then on top of that you're helping with scout camp, you're helping with youth ministry. You're donating so much money to the church too. So the men definitely have a really difficult life, especially if they're in any type of leadership position. And like the cherry on top of all of that that makes the men keep working is you're going to get a really pretty wife and so you have access to sex for the rest of your life. Her body belongs to you. So you can roll over in bed at 2 o' clock you morning and wake that babe up and go for it. You get children, you know, without the woman. A lot of men are very, very motivated by having their posterity. Right. Like my dad taught me how to play Baseball. I can't wait to have a son so that I can teach that to him and pass that down. I was recently on a podcast with mostly men. And as I was talking about feminist issues, that was the number one thing that they were basically screaming at me about, like, well, if you take women out of the occasion because I was scared, saying, go, birth strike. Let's not have a birth strike. Let's have a birth strike pandemic. Let's make this bigger than it could ever possibly be. And the men were. That was their number one thing that they were upset at me about. They're like, well, but if we can't get married and if we're not going to have a life companion and if we're not going to have children, then we're just going to play video games all day and drink beer and enjoy ourselves. Because most men are working for that family. And for that, I mean, really, I was an emotional support pet to Jake and to everybody around me too. So that's the number one. I mean, it really is. It's breeding the offspring and it's being the reward for the men. So that's one of the reasons why in these high demand religions like Mormonism and the alt right, like the MAGA girls, right? I just cut my hair recently as a political protest because I was still rocking the Mormon curl, you know, the Utah curl. It was long and people kept saying, you still look maga. So I chopped my hair straight because it was such a triggering comment. You see the MAGA girls, like, there's the MAGA curl, There's the MAGA look, the eyelashes, the breast implants, the bleached white teeth that, like, they're about to fall out by the roots. That emphasis on being pretty is in part because no guy wants an ugly wife. And the woman is the reward. She plays the role of the trophy. She plays the role of emotional support pet. She plays the role of personal assistant. I worked for Jake for 24 years building businesses. I didn't have a paycheck or a bank account. I worked for free. And I had. I have so many friends who, like, put their husbands through college, run his dental office. They're not on the llc. They don't get a paycheck. They get room and board. Women also play the role of spreading. They are the advertisers. You know, just in Mormonism, you look at these Mormon guys on Secret Lives of Mormon wives, right? And I'm sorry, they all look like a bunch of goobers. I don't usually shame Men. But there's a collection of losers on the Secret, Secret lives. And, like, nobody's gonna watch these guys and think, oh, I want to join the Mormon Church. But you spend six minutes scrolling ballerina farm Hannah. And she's so sweet, and the beautiful skin and the glossy blonde hair, and she's baking the most delicious thing, and you're gonna join that church. Women also act as a beard. You know, people in my neighborhood, I lived in these country club neighborhoods, and they saw me and my cute kids and our little family. Oh, look, this is what Mormonism is. And that kind of kept them from seeing the polygamy, the white supremacy, the hatred to gay, you know, lgbtq. I was the face of the Mormon Church, so it keeps people from kind of digging deeper in a lot of ways. Like, Ghislaine Maxwell was that recruiter for Epstein's Island. I was the recruiter, recruiter for my neighbors and everybody around me in the Mormon Church in the alt right community.

[A]

Wow. Oh, my gosh. You just sort of, like, checked all the boxes down. The culty rubric, you know, the sort of, like, intense dehumanization and objectification, the financial exploitation, the justification for all of it. I mean, I did actually want to ask about that. Like, my hyper fixation is cult language. And I'm always curious how buzzwords and turns of phrase are used to shut down people's questioning and independent thinking. I mean, whenever you did feel any cognitive dissonance or whenever anybody wanted to express any measure of pushback or even ask why were there Christian nationalist phrases or slogans or buzzwords that would be delivered to you to kind of keep you in.

[C]

Well, first of all, Amanda, if I ever doubted anything, then that was Satan whispering in my ear so that he could taint me and pull me off of the straight and narrow path. There's a scripture in the Book of Mormon that says that he binds you with flax and cords and leads you carefully down to hell. So Satan doesn't just, like, push you off a cliff and there you are, burning in hell. I always picture, like, he'd just bind me with, oh, I'm watching mtv. And so there's one little golden thread. And now I let my boyfriend touch my butt at a dance, and there's another golden thread. And pretty soon, you know, little bit by little bit, he's rubbing his me down to help some of the phrases. So this comes from Elder Uchtdorf. He's one of the current apostles. He's German, and he had this phrase, doubt your doubts. So he literally gave a talk and he speaks for God, right? This is straight from Heavenly Father that whenever you have doubts, rather than doubt the church, rather than doubt the brethren and the general authorities, doubt your doubts. And so I would think that like there were certainly times when it's like, you know, this Sunday school lesson seems a little bit off, right? But then I would automatically think, oh, that's Satan. Satan's trying to tempt me away. He's trying to bind me with those flax and cords and lead me carefully down to hell. So I better doubt my doubts because I should never ever, ever doubt the

[A]

church if that is not a thought terminating cliche. Doubt your doubts.

[C]

Stay in the boat.

[A]

Oh, stay in the boat.

[C]

Yeah, stay in the boat. This was another one of the apostles and he's repeated this multiple times. So he talks about like the churches, a boat, and like we're all in this together on this stormy sea, right? And there's actually some little cartoon that I think he posted in General conference when he talked about this. There's these huge waves, like you're going to capsize and drown. And he's like, why in the world, if you're in the middle of this ocean, in this storm, in the dark with sharks and icebergs and like, who knows, there could be a nuclear bomb going off there. Why would you jump out of the boat, stay in the boat? And I would actually pray for pray. Like I always had my prayers. Every morning I'd go to the bathroom and then come back and kneel by the side of my bed in my pajamas and pray before I did anything, before I made my bed, before I went down and had breakfast. I always had my morning prayers. And one thing that I would pray is please help me to stay in the boat, help me to resist, help me to put on the armor of God. So that was one of the things, like if you're having doubts, if you're questioning, then it's because you're not reading your scriptures. So basically you're not self hypnotizing, right? You're not reading your scriptures, you're not going to church, you're not listening to music, you're not talking only to members of the church and listening to, to all the stuff that they want you to. So put on the armor of God and then your doubts will dissipate and you'll be able to eradicate Satan.

[A]

Those are all such emotionally charged. Wow. They're foreboding, you know, they're invoking all of existence.

[C]

Do you want to Hear what I think is the most diabolical phrase out of the Mormon Church.

[D]

Absolutely.

[C]

You can leave the church, but you can't leave the church alone. This comes from Neal A. Maxwell here. He's one of the apostles towards ex Mormons. So if you leave the church and you say anything about it, like, let's say some little blonde decides to like, make a video and hashtag it ex Mormon. If you do that, you're not leaving the church alone. And they're almost like gaslighting you into thinking that that's a bad thing. You can leave the church, but you can't leave the church alone. You're supposed to leave quietly. Shut your mouth.

[D]

It's impossible to escue it from your mind. Totally. So there's not even even a point in trying and you might as well just participate from the inside comfortably, pretty much.

[A]

Is that like a play on words? It's kind of like ambiguous. Like, you can't leave the church by yourself, but you can't let the church go.

[C]

It makes you feel like if you tell anybody anything bad that happened to you inside the church, right? Like me, like the seven years that I've been doing videos about the Mormon Church and articles and everything that I do, right. I have a documentary about to come out about my life inside the Mormon Church. If you do that, then it's like, oh, Jenny's some type of a stalker. And what's funny too, like, we don't have that phrase around anything else. Like, you can leave the restaurant, but you don't leave the restaurant alone. No, if you had a good experience, you're gonna go talk about it on Instagram and post some videos on Google. If you have a bad experience, you're gonna go to Yelp and you're gonna give it a one star review and you're gonna tell other people, hey, there was a hair in my soup, like, hot Hep C there or something, right? Like, we don't talk about that. You. You left Amazon, but you didn't leave Amazon alone. No, we go to Amazon, we write. Write reviews. But that little phrase there, like, I actually think that phrase often, anytime I'm being ex Mormony, I think I can leave the church, but I can't leave the church alone.

[A]

Well, that is the power of language is that like, language follows you. It's so catchy. It's the last thing that you kind of shake off.

[D]

I think I want to touch on something that you had brought up earlier, which is the Luke, the Utah curls. Amanda had her hair Tinseled lovingly at Secret Lives of Mormon Wives premiere event. We're well familiar with the uniform. And for the men folk, that usually looks like AR15 in all your photos. Maybe like a big fish in there. Flags in church.

[C]

There's a look.

[D]

How does the aesthetic of Christian nationalism contribute to the culture within it?

[C]

Well, men and Christian nationalism and it doesn't matter if it's Mormonism, evangelical, fundamentalist, Baptist, atheist, MAGA people, the men have to prove that they're men to everybody around them because they're afraid of being gay. And honestly, I think that they're all gay. And I have no evidence around that, except that I grew up in this community and they love each other so much. Like my ex husband always had like these bromances with everybody. Like he hero worshiped all of his guy friends and they really hate women. Like women are utterly purposeless. So just because of that, because the men are trying, you know, Gaston from Beauty and the Beast, you know, no one fights like Gaston. That is men in Christian nationalism. Am I wrong?

[A]

Oh my God, that's hilarious. It is homoerotic.

[C]

It's so homoerotic, but also homophobic at the same time. So that right there, that tension between the bromances and the having to prove that you are actual men and that you're not gay really leads to hyper manliness. And a lot of it with the Christian nationalism also plays into just some of our American folklore around, you know, the mountain men and our Texas cowboys and all of that. Like those are certainly the ideals. My ex husband one time he called guys who were sensitive and kind juice drinking, muffin eating, sweater wearers and like that's everything that my new partner is juice. Right, Because I don't know what's your.

[A]

Oh, like green juice.

[D]

A threat?

[C]

Yeah, like orange juice. Like I don't know, you're not supposed

[A]

to drink juice, you're supposed to drink soda.

[C]

Yeah, your big old big gulpful Dr. Pepper. So that tension to be manly I do think leads to male behaviors. Like when my son was young, he had a little baby doll and some of the guys came over. You know, my husband had a bunch of guys over to watch football or something and they saw my little 2 year old son with a baby doll he had asked for. He wanted it to the store so I bought it for him and they made fun of him and they picked it up and they chucked it in the garbage, ripped its head off, threw it in the garbage because that was an act of hyper masculinity and we're real men. And so then what that does, too, is it forces the women to be hyper feminine because we want to make sure that the men know that they're not having sex with another man. Right. Or that they're not attracted to another man. And it's also really harmful, in my opinion, the way that the evangelicals, the Baptists, that everybody who's kind of on the wild side of things with the Mormons, and the Mormons in particular, fetishize a very specific type of woman. If you look at Ballerina Farm Hannah, she looks like she's 16, right? She's so teensy, and she doesn't wear the makeup and she's all freckled. She looks like a teenager. That's how they want him. And fundamentally, like Mary in the Bible, right? Like the God guy comes down and she's supposed to be a teenager, and he gets her pregnant. And every, you know, Ruth and Esther and all of these women that are objectified by men throughout the Bible, that is the standard. These guys are reading this every single Sunday that Eve was made for Adam. And they like him young. They like him really young. So I'm 51, and I still have to feel like. Like I don't feel comfortable in my skin if I lean into my age, because those guys in those communities want you frozen in time. So you're immature, and they cut off access to education and things like that so that you stay immature. And that creates very gendered roles for women and a lack of opportunity.

[A]

Okay, this is really illuminating. First of all, that is all so oppressive, and I'm sorry that you've internalized that and you carry it with you. But this is really illuminating because I remember when Rhys and I attended that premiere party for the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. The cast was there. I remember the whole place feeling like a child's birthday party. It was a dry event.

[D]

There was, like, bedazzled jean jackets. I mean, I led in with, like, you got hair tinsel. It was quite juvenile. Yeah.

[A]

And I remember some of the cast members, like, the dances that they were doing for the camera felt a little Toddlers and Tiaras coded. Like, I was just like, it's odd how childlike, but at the same time, sexy. Everyone feels the need to behave and the fact that it's all just, like, a reaction of this culty standard that has been set for men and masculinity and, like, women are just meant to accommodate the that and are, again, cut off from any education that might disrupt that, that sheds Light on this question that I've had about just that observation for a long time. But I want to specifically ask another question about, like, how all of these beliefs blur into politics. So obviously, like, the Christian nationalist mission is to make politics and church one and the same. Can you explain how that shows up in everyday life, like in school and voting? I'm just super curious about that.

[C]

Well, Jesus was my Lord and King. And coming from my worldview, like, the whole purpose of everything was just God and religion. My loyalty was to my Lord and King Jesus Christ. And from my worldview, it was my job to help bring his kingdom to the earth. So have you heard of the seven mountains of Christian nationalism?

[A]

Yes, but please explain.

[C]

Okay. The seven mountains are these pillars of civilized society that as a Christian nationalist, I believed should be controlled by religious people like me because God called and chose me to be in charge of everything. So that's arts and entertainment, that's education, that's politics, that's finances. So the whole thing about Bad Bunny at the super bowl, the reason why, like Turning Point USA and all the Christian nationalists are pissed off about that is because they believe that their Christian entertainment should set the tone for all of American society. So, like, they can't just turn off their TV for 10 minutes and go do else or like play some different music. They believe that the Lord's music should be the only music at the Super Bowl. So I guess that would be worship music or like George Strait. And so like finances. Like, they want religious people to own all of the banks. They want religious people to own the movie production companies. So Christian nationalism, to me, I wanted only Christians to run everything. Because if you weren't a believer like me, then obviously you're an evildoer who is following Satan. And that was going to lead to worldwide catastrophe and evil. And pretty soon we have gay people getting married and college girls aborting babies and we all go to hell in a hand basket.

[A]

The confidence. I am confident in so few of my beliefs. Definitely not confident enough to want to institutionalize them and have them reflected at the super bowl halftime performance.

[D]

Oh, no. You had mentioned earlier that one of the classic tenants of a cult or a cult like group is a charismatic leader. So of course we gotta ask you who you think the charismatic leader of Christian nationalism is right now. Would you say Donald Trump? Would you say somebody else?

[C]

Absolutely. Donald Trump 100. He has merged everybody. Charlie Kirk definitely had a lot of power through his podcast. He reached so many people. And I just don't think that a Lot of people realize publicly what is happening privately behind the scenes with Turning Point USA and that movement and the hundreds of thousands of young college kids that they're reaching. I live here in Arizona, so I was here when people were coming out of the funeral. I was at a restaurant that wasn't very far away from the Charlie Kirk funeral. And so everyone was coming in with their freedom T shirts on. So many people, I, I don't know what the final number was of attendees at that. The fact that there were that many people at that Charlie Kirk funeral. The. If you look at their traffic online, Turning Point USA and some of these podcasts around Jesus are certainly huge. But then just like the Baskin Robbins, different flavors that trickles down to individual mega church pastors. You know, like Mark Drake Driscoll. He's certainly a cult leader. Especially, you know, you think about church 100 years ago when you actually just went to a church and it was a small church, there's no televangelism. And so, you know, what, what could a preacher, a pastor handle? 500 people, maybe at the most, a little congregation and get out to meet them all and know them and take care of their needs. Today, the way that churches operate with our mega churches. There's a church that I was attending when I, you know, the church that I left Mormonism and became Christian. I think they have something like 30,000 members across seven different campuses. So that pastor himself is definitely creating an identity for those people. And then as they all align together, then people look to like, Donald Trump is just the grand Poobah of everybody.

[A]

Poobah is the perfect word to describe his, like, body shape.

[C]

Right?

[D]

Anything.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so why do you think Christian nationalism is, is gaining so very much ground right now, especially in younger demographics?

[C]

Humans operate between order and chaos, right. And we have to have just the right amount. If things are too chaotic, then we're like, oh, I need to, you know, I need some tradition, I need some stability, I need some routine. And coming out of the pandemic, I think that the world has been very chaotic for a lot of us. It was chaotic for me, like I almost died and then like my business was terrible. Everything sucked. So we come out of the pandemic and of a lot, lot of us want more order. I feel like just for me as a 51 year old woman, there are more kind of like upheavals in the world today than I've seen in like my whole entire life, with the exception of September 11th. So when we have all these things going on, then people are going to look for something to make sense. And one of the biggest movements right now in America is just people leaning back into tradition. So that can be the trad wife movement. Obviously we see that a lot. That can be young kids who, you know, just gen X was 40% atheist. And now we have some of these Gen Alphas who are like joining youth groups and stuff in droves because the world felt kind of chaotic. And rather than just embracing that and being okay with that discomfort, we have to make sense of things. We want traditional family, we want nostalgic TV shows. We're gonna wear fashion from yesteryear and we're gonna name our babies grandma's names, right? So that we can have that little of order. So I think the spread of Christian nationalism is resonating with the younger generation because the world has been so chaotic for them that they need that to keep order. Why does Christian nationalism want to spread? I think is one of the bigger things, and that's just money. Religion is the biggest money maker in all of America. And I don't even have to have a product. My ex husband, Stinky Jake and I paid about $300,000 in tithing in a 2014 year marriage. Do you know how much I have in retirement? Zero. I have no retirement. I have no life insurance. I have nothing. I'm 51 years old. The Mormon church made so much money off of me and they sold me nothing. I got nothing. Eternal life isn't real. The Book of Mormon is fake.

[A]

That is like science fucking tology. Like that alone makes this a cult.

[C]

Oh, absolutely. I think if you're charging money at the door, it's a cult for sure. So they have all of the motivation because they are huge money makers. Huge money makers. The Mormon church is worth almost a trillion dollars. Even if like a hundred people join in the church and pay like $100 a year in tithing, they're making money

[D]

more than they had before that.

[A]

And this is a great reminder that sounds like a cult is available for free. And if you want to listen without ads, it's only $2 a month on Patreon.

[C]

Sorry, best money you'll ever spend.

[D]

Necessary plug.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

You'll actually. You'll get a tangible product.

[A]

Yeah, $2. $2. It's the cheapest podcast anyway. Okay, we have one more question and then we're gonna play a quick and cheeky game.

[D]

We do. Given that there is seemingly such a large influx of young people migrating towards Christian nationalism, we have to be optimistic and Hope that. That there are an equal and opposite amount of young people migrating away and deconstructing. So our closing question to you is, what advice would you give to someone beginning to question their Christian nationalist beliefs who feels scared or alone to begin the deconstruction process?

[C]

So great. The first bit of advice that I wish that somebody had told me seven years ago is the same advice that I got from my therapist around my abusive, now ex husband. And that's gonna no contact. So when you're in that questioning phase, if you have some doubts, it's just like, I mean, we're all watching Jesse do this in secret lives where she really just needs to, like, separate and move on with her life, but she keeps going back to Jordan. You don't go back. You don't sit down and have dinner together. You don't hang out in the hot tub together, and you certainly don't go to bed together. So if you're questioning, the best thing in the world that you can do is give yourself some space. Go no contact with your religion. Don't go to church on Sunday to get the answers. Don't find clarity there. Don't read your scriptures more. That's not what we do with anything. That's just terrible advice. When I went no contact with my church and I had that space to get kind of an elevated perspective, that separation was exactly what I needed to really dig into the doctrine further and look at the results of the church in my life and make that decision of whether or not I went back. So I'd say, first of all, no contact. And then secondly, I wish that somebody had told me that on the other side of rock bottom is the greatest happiness and freedom that you can ever have. My Facebook memories just gave me a picture this morning of me exactly seven years ago. I look terrible. And I was seven years younger, right? This is in the middle of my divorce. This is just a few days before I would try to take my life. And I look absolutely miserable. I'm in absolute shock. And as I was walking through this time, I was thinking, I will never be happy again without the Mormon Church, without Stinky Jake, without my family. My family's disowned me. I have zero people in my life from my old community. Zero. Without all of these people, without my home, without my dog, without the stuff that I'm used to, I can never be happy again. And it's such a lie. I literally am happier than I have ever been. I never was happy. I was never happy for 44 years, until the day I walked away from my faith and the abusive man and the people that were toxic. And if I could just give myself that little peek of me seven years down the road, first of all, I don't think I would have believed it, but it would have kept me going in major ways. So if you are doubting your faith, even if it's like your faith in maga, maybe you're part of a toxic friend group that acts like a cult. Maybe you're in that cult of one with a terrible wife or a terrible boyfriend or whatever that thing is. And if you're in the Mormon church or something else and you're starting to have those cracks and you want to know what those next steps are, that next step is literally just tie a knot, hold onto the rope. It's going to be a bumpy ride. But that bumpy ride is the only thing that separates you from the life of your dreams and a relationship with other people in yourself that you could never even even dream of.

[A]

Thank you so much for sharing that. That's such a. That is such a hopeful motivational sentiment. I just. I appreciate that so much. God. And I feel, like, kind of awkward now because that was like, so earnest and meaningful. And now we want to play like

[D]

the dumb early game time.

[C]

I love the dumb games, though.

[A]

Okay, well, our other co host, Chelsea, invented this game. It's basically like culty Mad Libs. So you know how to play Mad Libs, right, Jenny? You, like, fill in adjectives and nouns and such. So we're gonna just ask you for various parts of speech and then we're gonna plug it into a culty Mad lib that our producer put together. I'm really excited. We both are.

[D]

Okay, give us an event of some kind.

[C]

My Christmas dinner party, because that's big on my mind right now.

[A]

Amazing.

[D]

Give us a patriotic symbol.

[C]

The American eagle.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

I don't even know that. That recall was amazing. I don't even know if I could name a patriotic symbol off the top of my head.

[C]

Honey, I was Christian. Ashley.

[D]

That would probably be what I would

[C]

say,

[D]

a pop culture icon, if you will.

[C]

Let's go with. I mean, I love Marilyn Monroe, so I'm gonna go way back.

[B]

Love.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Classique.

[D]

Very Americana. Now give us a good old conspiracy theory.

[C]

The New World Order is actually behind all current governments on the earth under the Koch brothers, and they hold all of the money.

[A]

Oh, my God. Katie, did you get that?

[D]

Katie's got it. Alrighty. And now give us a scapegoat group of your choice.

[C]

Let's go with trans athletes.

[D]

A Christian nationalist buzzword.

[C]

Trad wave. A civil right or law like freedom of speech.

[D]

Hit us with a plural noun.

[C]

Let's do potatoes.

[D]

Give us a singular noun.

[C]

Chicken.

[D]

A motto of some kind to my

[C]

motto, which is a man is not a plan.

[D]

That's a great motto. I love that. And now, just to come, couple more I need from you. A country.

[C]

Russia.

[D]

A noun.

[C]

Shoe.

[D]

And last but not least, a noun that begins with the letter F. Feather. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[D]

Amanda, would you like to read?

[A]

Yeah, I really, really do. The theme of this Mad Lib is a Facebook post from your uncle who's deep in the cult of Christian nationalism. So imagine that this is that post.

[C]

I love it already.

[A]

Okay, just got back from my Christmas dinner party where we praised the American eagle and gave thanks to Marilyn Monroe. I don't know who needs to hear this, but if you don't believe the new World Order is actually behind all the world governments controlled by the Koch brothers, then you probably support trans athletes. This country was founded on trad wives, not freedom of speech. I will not let my children being doctrinated by potatoes who hate chicken. I stand for a man is not a plan. And if that offends you, you can move to Russia. Blessed, saved. Hashtag patriots for shoes. Faith, family feather.

[D]

And I've always said that.

[C]

Have you seen the new faith Uggs? They have little crosses on them and they have like little second Corinthians and stuff. They just drop. I just saw them on Ugg.

[A]

Ugh.

[D]

Indeed. That's terrifying.

[C]

Making money off of Jesus. That's so great.

[A]

Wow. Well, hashtag faith, family feather. Jenny, thank you so much for this extremely eye opening conversation. If people want to keep up with you and your work, where can they do that?

[C]

I'm mostly hanging out on YouTube right now. I'm Life Take Two. I do have almost half a million followers over on TikTok that I occasionally, occasionally pop in to say hello and do a live stream and blow kisses out. So either or amazing. Thank you again. You guys are amazing. You're so much fun and you're so smart. You give me hope for the future of the younger generations. Amazing.

[A]

Oh, my God. Jordan, keep that in.

[D]

Jordan, keep it in. Thank you. No. Very inspiring to hear from you. I'm 22 right now, so.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Recently. This is the youth.

[C]

I believe that children are our future.

[A]

All right, Reese, out of these three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and even get the fuck out. Which cult category do you think this cult of Christian nationalism falls into I

[D]

am even getting the fuck out. If you can even actually, actually believe

[A]

it or not, I'm getting the fuck out. Yeah, it's so bad. It's the worst.

[D]

Yeah, it's that whole like saying the quiet part out loud, but yeah, yeah,

[A]

there's no much more to say along with this verdict. This ideology is part of the death of our society as it was part of the birth. Well put, my dear, well put. Well put. Well, this conversation has made me hungry for a banana split and I will not explain further. That is our show.

[D]

Thank you so much for listening.

[B]

Stick around for a new cult next

[D]

week, but in the meantime, stay culty but not too.

[B]

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Katie Epperson.

[A]

Our theme music is by Casey Cole.

[B]

Additional research for this episode by Naomi Nakahodou.

[A]

If you enjoyed the show, we'd really

[C]

appreciate it if you could leave it

[A]

5 stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish

[B]

the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show.

[A]

You might also enjoy my other books,

[B]

the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language.

[A]

Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support

[B]

us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult.

[C]

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