← Sounds Like A Cult
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- [00:00]
Amanda Montell
This episode of Sounds Like a Cult is proudly sponsored by Liquid iv. I have recently re fallen in love with Liquid iv. Now that it's summer, their firecracker popsicle flavor has been single handedly keeping me alive. Its science backed formula contains an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients. Just one stick of the stuff plus 16 ounces of water hydrates faster than water alone. Stay hydrated while you're on the go this summer with Liquid IV. Tear pour live more go to LiquidIV.com and get 20% off your first purchase with code cult at checkout. That's 20% off your first purchase with Code cult@liquidiv.com the best dancers from across
- [00:40]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
the globe are about to join me for the audition of a lifetime.
- [00:43]
Amanda Montell
ABC Mondays. Do they have what it takes to compete and be the next Dancing with the Stars pro? I'm here to win.
- [00:50]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Nothing is going to stop me.
- [00:52]
Amanda Montell
Our star judges will decide.
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Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
This is what hunger looks like. It was 100% a wrong choice.
- [00:57]
Amanda Montell
Robert Irwin, Host the next era of
- [00:59]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
ballroom starts right here on Dancing with the Stars.
- [01:02]
Amanda Montell
The next pro new Mondays, 8, 7 Central on ABC. Next day on Hulu. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Conversion therapy is hella problematic. It's not therapy and people's sexuality cannot be converted.
- [01:30]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
So sadly, there are so many stories of these former cult leader conversion therapy ministry leaders who did really horrible things to people who were under their care, making them act out sexual fantasies or making them talk very graphically about things that they had experienced and like cuddle therapy. Like there's so many weird things that happened in conversion therapy because there was no license for conversion therapy. The end goal was like be straight, be heterosexual. But all these people kind of just created and invented their own ways of doing this therapy. It's. It's not therapy. It's torture.
- [02:04]
Amanda Montell
This is Sounds like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of books including Cultish the Language of Fanaticism.
- [02:15]
Reese Oliver
And I'm your co host Reese Oliver. Sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar.
- [02:20]
Amanda Montell
Every single episode we analyze a different fanatical fringe group or guru from the cultural zeitgeist. From essential oils to incels to try and answer the big question.
- [02:31]
Reese Oliver
This group sounds like a cult, but is it really. And if so, which of our three
- [02:44]
Amanda Montell
cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your
- [02:47]
Reese Oliver
back or get the fuck out.
- [02:49]
Amanda Montell
Because here's the thing. When you hear the word cult, you might picture a satanic compound in the woods with a wild eyed dark creature on a pulpit and a bunch of barefooted weirdos with, I don't know, dirty noses. What? But that's not always what a cult looks like these days. Cultish influence can show up on the Internet, it can show up in your fitness studios, it can show up in your corporate offices. Essentially, we are all under some level of cultish influence. It just doesn't always look the way that you might expect respect.
- [03:22]
Reese Oliver
No, it does not. And much like identity, cultish thinking is not binary, baby. It is a whole rainbow.
- [03:29]
Amanda Montell
A goddamn spectrum.
- [03:31]
Reese Oliver
Some cultish groups tend to be on the darker, more insidious side, like anti vaxxers and aforementioned insoles, while others are a little bit more colorful, whimsical, a wee bit fun. I'm thinking Labubu mayhaps Pokemon collectors. Under this premise, within this podcast, we chat, we gab, we yap, and we decide where our faves fall along this rainbow road of cult foolishness.
- [03:54]
Amanda Montell
Wait, I just heard a joke. Where do bad rainbows go?
- [03:58]
Reese Oliver
Oh, I don't know.
- [03:59]
Amanda Montell
To prism?
- [04:05]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
I like that.
- [04:07]
Amanda Montell
And you know what? That joke has a lot to do with today's not so jokey topic where bad rainbows in the eyes of the church go to conversion therapy. Oh yeah. Unfortunately, today's cult of discussion truly un whimsifies and dulls the bright colors of the world through fraudulent claims, harmful rhetoric, high control mechanisms. It's a cult that exploits our very human need for acceptance, community, a solid sense of self. And while you may think that this cult is dwindling, that it seems kind of backwards and upside down, unfortunately it's not. It's having kind of a heyday. And we're going to hear all about that from our very, very special guest, Tim S. Rodriguez, who wrote an incredible book that just came out called Conversion Therapy Dropout.
- [05:04]
Reese Oliver
I guess my naive assumption was that more formal conversion therapy had kind of fizzled out and it was more so just homophobic teachings that remained within the bones of pre existing fundamentalist and evangelical religious groups. I didn't really realize that there were still active groups today with the explosive explicit purpose or I think I knew that they were there. I don't think I realized they were having such a moment right now. Is this something that's been on your radar Lately?
- [05:30]
Amanda Montell
No. I mean, call me a bimbo, but in my, like, very queer bubble, everyone's just getting gayer, Right? But I guess that's what they're trying to fight. We considered doing an episode on the cult of conversion therapy, like, four or five years ago, and I remember polling our listeners about it on Instagram. Follow us. Sounds like a cold pod on ig. And there wasn't that much interest in it because a lot of people, I think, agreed that they thought it was a thing of the past, and it's really, really fucking not.
- [05:59]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, that's something really concerning and culty to me is that, like, in spite of, and maybe even because of the fact that we live in such queer bubbles, this has totally not even been on our radar. And that's something that I think is really very cult y and just emphasizes the importance to me of making sure that you're keeping up with your news in all of the cultish corners of the world, even the ones that you don't particularly like, because they could be a lot more relevant to you than you think. Yeah.
- [06:22]
Amanda Montell
And also one of the reasons why I think I wasn't more aw error is because, as we will discuss shortly with our guest, after people leave and survive this cult, the psychological ramifications can be so dire that it's tough to, like, come out and speak about it formally. And this book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, is very unique. It's a very, very unique memoir. I did read another memoir about a conversion therapy, survivor Boy Erased, which was turned into into a movie. But that book came out in 2016, and for some reason, like, I thought that era was like the last gasp of this whole industry movement cult. But we had the record set straight. Oh, wait, we had the record set queer. This interview is amazing. Like, Tim is so good at talking about his story, but before we get into it, we did want to kind of quantify how fucked up and how alive this cult of conversion therapy really is in 2026. First of all, it needs to be said that this term, conversion therapy, is hella problematic. It's not therapy, and people's sexuality cannot be converted. But generally, we're going to be using this term. That's the term that Tim uses. That's the term that people recognize. And it refers to the pseudoscientific practice of attempting to alter someone's gender identity, sexual orientation, or related behaviors in order to get them aligned with their godly purpose in the U.S. a 2019 study by Mallory Brown and Conran from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law reported that nearly 6, 700,000 LGBTQ adults have received a form of conversion therapy at some point in their lives, with half of them receiving these practices as teens during this ever vulnerable time. And a study in the American Psychologist found that black transgender people are disproportionately impacted by conversion therapy, religious trauma and barriers to gender affirming care. So this is a lot of people and it disproportionately affects those most marginalized. Huge bummer. Yeah, this is a very big problem
- [08:44]
Reese Oliver
with a very extensive and brutal history. Some of the more extreme documented cases of conversion therapy include lobotomies in late 19th century United States, experimental castration of gay men in Nazi Europe, and brutal aversion therapy in the form of electroshock and nausea inducing drugs in American and British mental hospitals from the 40s and 60s. If anybody's seen American Horror Asylum, you've seen something similar. Ryan Murphy, you will not be forgiven for your crimes. Some other forms of aversion therapies that border abuse were still being used in the US by religious counselors as recently as the early 2000 and tens, which is absolutely insane and much too recent, as is all of this stuff, truly.
- [09:26]
Amanda Montell
Now here's what makes conversion therapy confusing as a term, as a phenomenon. Obviously when we say the word therapy, you probably picture licensed professionals. But most people offering these services aren't doctors. Most of them are non licensed figures like religious leaders or spiritual advisors. That doesn't mean that licensed therapists are not offering conversion therapy. And we will later mention a very recent Supreme Court ruling in Colorado that actually made banning conversion therapy by licensed therapists more difficult. More challenging. Regardless, all to say that conversion therapy is happening in therapists office, but mostly it's happening in churches, communities and in informal settings that are much harder to regulate.
- [10:19]
Reese Oliver
Much harder to regulate. Much like an mlm. It's actually a lot like an mlm, but a lot worse because much like multilevel marketing companies are really difficult to enforce any kind of regulation against them via the Better Business Bureau or the ftc because they're not like a lot of the time actual licensed businesses. They're just like random burlies. And similarly, conversion therapy exists in a very weird legal gray area because it is sometimes being practiced by therapists and sometimes not. It can sometimes be prosecuted as consumer fraud because it's duh, ineffective horseshit. But, and this is the catch, those bans only apply to those licensed professionals. They don't cover religious leaders, coaches, other non licensed providers, bootleggers, which is like a huge loophole. And honestly, most of the people teaching this kind of shit, as we'll talk about later, the DIY side of conversion therapy and some of the more culturally less clinical forms of conversion therapy are really what seems to be doing a majority of the harm nowadays. And that is the sect of this cult that is the most difficult to legally retaliate against, which is obviously terrible. Even in places where conversion therapy is technically banned, thousands of young people are still being subjected to it, often through religious or community channels. And that's what makes it so difficult to track and regulate slips outside the boundaries of what the law can easily
- [11:34]
Amanda Montell
touch okay, so I think now is the time to transition into our interview. God, I can't wait for you culties to hear it. After the break, you will have the pleasure of hearing from Timothy Schrader Rodriguez, a conversion therapy survivor and author of the brand new book Conversion Therapy Dropout. This episode of Sounds Like a Cult is proudly sponsored by Liquid iv. I have recently re fallen in love with Liquid Ivy. Now that it's summer, their firecracker popsicle flavor has been single handedly keeping me alive. Liquid IV is a delicious little on the go hydration packet that is clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone. Powered by a little something called LIV Hydro Science and anecdotally I can also tell you from my body and spirit that it really does hydrate very quickly. Its science backed formula contains an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients. Liquid IV helps you retain that sweet, delicious hydration. Just one stick of the stuff plus 16 ounces of water hydrates faster than water alone. It's vegan, gluten free, dairy free, soy free, they even have sugar free flavors. I recently brought a bunch of Liquid IV to a little beach day for all of my friends and it was oh so gorgeously received. Stay hydrated while you're on the go this summer with Liquid IV. Tear poor live more go to LiquidIV.com and get 20% off your first purchase with code cult at checkout. That's 20% off your first purchase with Code cult@liquidiv.com Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like DoorDash. No ID, prescription or age requirement. It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception and it won't impact your future fertility. That's freedom to be use as directed. Tim, welcome to Sounds like a Cult. Thank you for being here.
- [13:47]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Thank you. Thanks for having me. So glad to be here.
- [13:50]
Amanda Montell
Could you introduce yourself and your work to our listeners?
- [13:53]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Yeah. My name is Tim Schrader Rodriguez. I am a conversion therapy survivor who also worked in evangelical Christian megachurches. I left that world behind. I live in New York City today, I work in tech, and I just released my first book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, which is my story of all of
- [14:10]
Reese Oliver
that from one cult to another. So just to kick us off, could you tell us about your experience with conversion therapy and did you ever think it was a cult?
- [14:19]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Sure. So I opted into conversion therapy when I was 19. That's kind of a unique part of my story. I was not coerced in by an adult or a parent. It was a choice that I willingly made. But a lot of that was because of the pressure that I felt from my community, where I grew up in the Midwest, being raised evangelical Christian. And so I believed that if I wanted to keep my relationship with God, if I wanted to keep the connection that I had in church, that that was the way I had to go. And so, you know, I never initially questioned if it was a cult or not because it just seemed like it was this force that was doing some good in the world by helping people overcome their unwanted same sex attraction. I initially was involved in an online support group where there were hundreds of other young people like me. I eventually went to one of the big national conferences from Exodus International, which was the largest organization at the time. There were thousands of other people there who all said that they had experienced this divine transformation. And so I didn't really have any ground to stand on to question whether or not it was real or if it was effective just because there were so many other people that were bought into it. But I guess it's like classic telltale sign of a cult. I didn't know that at the time, but I would say over time, as I got deeper into it and the more time I spent in conversion therapy, the more I realized that it was a controlling environment that was actually sucking the light out of us and not actually leading us to where they promised we would go.
- [15:42]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. Did you have like a shelf breaking moment you can remember?
- [15:45]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
It was a combination of things. I think. When I initially started in conversion therapy, the banner literally said, freedom is possible. And by the end of my time in conversion therapy, they started to Change their tune a little bit, because so many people were dropping out of conversion therapy, were leaving, and so they were saying, hey, you might not change, but you can choose to, like, honor God and be celibate, or you can choose to, like, live a heteronormative life and marry a. A woman that you might not be sexually attracted to, but you're doing the right thing by fulfilling what God wants people to do by having celibate or straight marriages. I would say, though, that the big catalyst for me was just seeing friends that I knew through my time in conversion therapy who started to fall away and embrace the lifestyle. Like, we were always told to lose contact with those people because they were going to drag us down. And I couldn't do that, though, because these were my friends. And seeing how their lives started to unravel, initially, I was always told, like, well, that's because they fell away. But I started to learn that a lot of the substance abuse and depression and a lot of the things that they were struggling with weren't the result of them embracing their sexuality. It was the result of all of the toxic things that they learned about themselves in conversion therapy that led them to those destructive ends. And because going into conversion therapy, you know, it was therapy, it was talk therapy. And so for a lot of them, when they got out of conversion therapy, they were scared to go back into a therapeutic space because that had been violated for them. And so they really were neglecting to get the real help that they needed to do to integrate themselves after being told to erase or disintegrate so much of themselves for so long.
- [17:22]
Amanda Montell
Oh, it sounds like such a complex and disorienting disentangling process, honestly, like a miracle that you were able to not only, like, get through, but process it and package it well enough to write a fricking memoir like, bless. So my understanding of conversion therapy until fairly recently was very much shaped by Hollywood portrayals. You know, conversion therapy is portrayed as this, like, explicitly culty thing. Very violent. Red flags abound. It's always like this isolated, compound type situation. Could you sort of compare, contrast, and maybe, like, debunk some of the Hollywood portrayals of this cult and what the cult is really like structurally and emotionally?
- [18:10]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
I mean, so those Hollywood archetypes of it aren't wrong. They're just the minority of what could conversion therapy look like? For me, initially, there were no groups for me to go to because I was in the middle of Illinois. And so I had to join this online support group that was a forum out of this organization in Dallas, Texas that still exists today. And so it was just me on a message board. This is like early 2000. So like very like web 1.0. But I was on this forum and I was interacting with people, but it was completely controlled. Like, we weren't allowed to exchange contact information. This was like right around the time that AOL Instant messenger came around. We weren't allowed to share our Instant messenger handles. It was a very controlled, like we could only post what the moderators could read. But it was also the first time I read other stories like mine or felt I was connecting with other people who shared a similar experience. And so there was that end to it. And then eventually I did go to an in person support group. And very similarly, it was like AA for homosexuality. But in order to get in, you had to fill out a very invasive questionnaire about your sexual past, your spiritual life. You had to get a pastor or someone like an adult over you to like, give a reference, to meet with the ministry leaders in person ahead of time to make sure that you weren't in it for nefarious reasons. And then once you got into the group, you couldn't have contact with group members outside of the group meeting time. And obviously that was because they didn't want us all hooking up with each other. But it again was just another one of those, like, controlling things that they didn't want us to have contact with each other outside of a space that they could monitor or control. And then there were these annual conferences that we would all go to and those, it's weird to say they were fun because they kind of were. Like, it was the first time I was around people like me. It was kind of the first taste of queer community I ever had.
- [19:57]
Amanda Montell
Oh, that is so ironic.
- [19:59]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Right? Like, I mean, we would stay up late into the night and like, one of my friends, like, did a chair. Did like the Britney Spears chair dance.
- [20:06]
Reese Oliver
The gayest shit.
- [20:07]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Yeah, like, it's the gayest shit ever. And it was the only space that we felt safe to do that. Which sounds really weird, but it's like, you know, at home we were following these, like, strict regimen, like, act like a man, do what a man does. And so it was like the first time we could like, let our little rainbow freak flag fly. And so it gave us this illusion or this sense of community and belonging. And as much as we were connected by those things, I mean, we were told to snuff that out immediately. Like, you know, don't be like that. But it gave us that sense of belonging and connection that I think we all craved. And so, you know, it took many forms over those years. And then also just like individual therapy with a therapist. And that felt just like normal talk therapy, except everything that I said in that setting was weaponized against me to say, you are who you are because of trauma that happened to you. And so it's just from all angles, it's just focused on disintegrating who you are as a person, erasing those things that make us who we are. And, like, affirming these, like, really rigid gender roles or norms of, like, what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman. And it was bad.
- [21:09]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, it sounds like there's a very large emphasis on eroding any sense of inner trust you have within yourself, even when it comes to things like choosing the people that you surround yourself with. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about some of the expected entry and exit costs of this cult. Like, what are you losing entering? What do you lose when you exit? And not only just for that, but for the person's family and friends as well.
- [21:29]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Oh, totally. I mean, entering into it, there's just a whole list of behavior modifications that we were given. Like, there was like the psychological component, there was the spiritual component because it was religious based, but there was also just like behavior modifications. So to say, okay, you have to give up all of your pop divas. You can't listen to any music that has a female vocal lead to listen to men. Men's music. Clothing, like, the brands of clothing that we wore, like, we weren't allowed to wear Abercrombie or Calvin Klein or anything that, like, sexualized men's bodies, because if we put that on, we'd think about the brand that it associated. And so there was that component to it. And we had to give up any hobbies or interests that were stereotypically queer. And also, like, with media not allowed to watch anything that, like, celebrated the gay lifestyle. So I would watch Will and Grace or Queer as Folk in secret. But, like, those were all, like, just things that we were told that we couldn't do to get into this. And then obviously leaving it, I mean, leaving it, there was no option to. It was dire. It's like, if we broke away from this, we're going to go to hell. We're going to lose our relationship with God, we're going to lose our connection to our family. And so there was never really, like an escape hatch and if there was, it was presented as, you're going to go into the gay lifestyle, you're going to get addicted to drugs, you're going to get aids. Like, there was never any positive story about embracing our sexuality. So the only end goal was like being heterosexual.
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Amanda Montell
The fact that you are able to articulate these entrance and exit costs as if you are looking at a rubric of what makes a cult a cult and checking off these boxes sends a shiver down my spine. Like the way that you so eloquently phrase these red flags, it makes me think like, this has to be one of the cultiest accepted on some level groups that we've ever covered on this show. The things that you are meant to sacrifice. And I mean, no dignified off ramp thinking that you're going to get AIDS and go to hell. Like, what could be scarier? God. Okay, so in your book Conversion Therapy Dropout, you talk about your experience as a former member of a megachurch. And I'm wondering, in your opinion, do you think that some of the cultish tendencies of mega churches in general, even ones that people go to casually or because like Justin Bieber is involved or whatever, like their charming leader and the insidery language has, have informed how conversion therapy operates?
- [23:57]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Oh, absolutely. And I mean, I think conversion therapy existed before megachurches did. But I think just the whole idea of having these like big masses of people and rallying around a belief or shared cause, like, I mean, that's universal. But I would say most mega churches were shuffling people like me in the direction of conversion therapy. Conversion therapy was the only option that was presented to any person that was admitting that they were struggling with their sexuality or even if they said they were gay. All of these megachurches and religious groups would point people in the direction of conversion therapy and say, okay, if you want to be a part of this, if you want to have connection to God, if you want belonging in this church, you need to get your life right, you need to get straightened out and you need to go to conversion therapy. It was just sort of like the pathway that we all ended up there. It was through our churches, it was our youth groups, it was the messages that we grew up hearing about human sexuality. There was no other option.
- [24:50]
Amanda Montell
So do you think that people who were even like more casually involved with megachurch culture than you or the most devoted participants got pushed into conversion therapy too?
- [25:01]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that one thing to realize is that a lot of people didn't go to formal conversion therapy. Like, they didn't go to the support group or the therapist or the conferences like I did. A lot of people did DIY conversion therapy by buying books or listening to the resources or just believing that in order to be accepted or loved by God or included in their faith community that they had to change their sexuality. And so whether or not they were doing that in a formal way, anyone who was praying, God, please change me, God, please take this away, was engaged in conversion therapy. And any evangelical Christian church, whether it's a mega church or a small church around the corner, wants those things to be true of their people. They want to make sure that people are living in alignment with God's word. And so anything that turns a gay person straight is widely accepted.
- [25:50]
Amanda Montell
I mean, that makes perfect sense because in a non religious capacity, people engage in DIY therapy. Are there like TikTok conversion therapists?
- [25:59]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
I would say social media is flooded with these stories and there are groups that are putting out content, but there's also just individuals. There's people who have had these radical transformational experiences who are talking about how they used to be gay and how now they're straight. There's detransition stories. And to me it's really scary because I started in conversion therapy in 2001. So we didn't have the Internet, I didn't have social media. I had to like dig and find the books and the resources and literally pick up a phone and call someone to like, say, where should I go? Where? Today it's as accessible as our social media feeds. And it's scary because it's dehumanizing. It is painful. Like it totally erodes a person's soul. And yet it's so widely accepted as like the path of what it means to deny yourself, to follow Christ. And so it's more pervasive now than it ever used to be. And a lot of people don't realize that. They think that it's a thing at the past, that it doesn't happen anymore. And I think that's the thing that makes me so scared of it now. And also why I wanted to write my book, to get my story out there. To be like it is a clear
- [27:05]
Reese Oliver
and present danger that is totally terrifying, especially given just the absolute melange of different self improvement avenues that there are on the Internet. I can see something like this getting tied up in so many different formats of that. I am wondering if the path to conversion therapy kind of always functions as a pipeline from religious settings or if you've witnessed a secular falling into this
- [27:28]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
cult I would say that by and large, there was, like, in the 1950s and 1960s, you know, McCarthy era. That's when all of these conversion practices first came into play. And so that's when the psychological community is like, well, maybe we can change a person's sexual orientation. They got rid of all of that stuff when they removed homosexuality from the dsm. So the larger non religious community acknowledged that this does not work. It causes harm. Harm. It is not possible for a person to change their sexual orientation. Religious communities, though, picked those ideals up and applied a spiritual layer to all of it. And so it's not just a Christian thing. There are conversion organizations within any major religious group that are active today, which is crazy. There's over 1300 conversion therapy practitioners active in 48 states right now. And that number may actually be larger because so many of them exist underground in religious communities.
- [28:20]
Reese Oliver
Oh, my God. We've been talking about the power of EW today, and I think that earns one.
- [28:24]
Amanda Montell
The power of ew. What are the two states where conversion therapists are not operating?
- [28:29]
Reese Oliver
Probably Alaska and Hawaii.
- [28:30]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
I was gonna say. I don't know. I'll. I'll look that up.
- [28:33]
Amanda Montell
I'm just like, should we all go there?
- [28:36]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
We need to move there. Well, and the other thing to point out is there's conversion therapy bans in, like, 20ish states right now. But those bans do not mean that conversion therapy is not happening in that state. It's just protecting LGBTQ youth from encountering conversion therapy in therapeutic settings. Now, all of that is in danger now because of what's happened recently, Colorado and the Supreme Court. So it's only going to continue to get more pervasive.
- [29:01]
Reese Oliver
Yeah.
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Amanda Montell
And, you know, obviously cults are good at rebranding. They're good at renaming and hiding under euphemism. And we came across a study by the ilga, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex association, which reported that proponents of conversion therapy have started distancing themselves from this term to appeal or less harmful, and are even denying that gender variance is an illness. Instead, they're using terms like reparative therapy, gender exploratory therapy, gender critical therapy to reflect this shift. And oftentimes, these conversion therapists say that they're promoting healthy sexuality. You know, support change is possible. You're just obtaining redemption. Could you talk about some of the culty terms that you encountered in your experience that camouflage the harm that you endured? And what are some of the more modern terms that you've come across?
- [30:03]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Yeah, I mean, the one phrase that was very consistent over my time in conversion therapy was that the opposite of homosexuality isn't heterosexuality. It's holiness. So it's like doing the right thing. It's like living how God. So and that was kind of like masking the whole idea that, like, your sexuality might not change, but, like, you're still gonna do what we say is the right way for you to live your life. That was really big. And a lot of modern day evangelicalism is centered on total depravity. Like, we are all broken. We are all in need of a savior. And so it just plays on that and says, yes, that is true. And you especially, because you're struggling with your sexuality. And they use a lot of Bible verses, like when Jesus says to deny ourselves and follow him. And so there was a lot of that language all throughout, but also just this whole idea that, like, you're the result of your trauma. It's not nature versus nurture. Like, you're not born that way. You learn your way into this behavior. It's because your dad was distant or your mom was overbearing, or you were into more stereotypically female hobbies than male. Like, and they try to pathologize those things that make you queer.
- [31:12]
Amanda Montell
Like musical theater.
- [31:14]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Exactly. I was a huge musical fan and like, no, that's not natural. Like, you need to like what guys like. And so it would pathologize all of those things and say, you know, the way to healing is embrace, you know, the good things. And so it was always presented as you have this choice. And I think the biggest thing is that there was never room for us to say that there was something wrong with the program. Like, if it didn't work, if you did not experience the change or transformation, it wasn't anything wrong with the program. It was nothing wrong with God. It was something wrong with you. And so it teaches you to, like, hate yourself and to second guess everything. And so one of the biggest groups of conversion therapy ministries, Exodus International in 2013, shut down. They're like, this doesn't work. No one's changed. Like, we've had it all wrong. They've tried to apologize. And, you know, one of the things, most of the folks who led ministries or organizations that did conversion therapy when I was in it have all recanted and said, it doesn't work. This is leading people down a destructive path. But people picked up the mantle and have carried on the work. And there are all of those groups that I mentioned, and they are reframing it. Like, they're very smart to say, don't call it conversion version therapy, call it discipleship, call it integrating person's sexuality with their spirituality, of choosing, you know, to live your life in alignment with your biblical conviction. Or it's a compassionate response to people who are impacted by LGBTQ issues and they're using language that sounds very compassionate, very, like pastoral, very counseling, like, very wellness, wholeness, those kinds of things. But it's leading people down this path of self destruction and self.
- [32:56]
Reese Oliver
This is such a crude comparison, but it reminds me of this BoJack Horseman episode where they rescue a chicken from a factory farm. If anyone has seen this episode, they might understand that. But one of the biggest culty red flags that sticks out to me in what you just said is just the total lack of ability to question anything happening around you and just the impetus to look inward with any and all criticism. I'm wondering if there are any other similarities with cult like groups that you haven't pointed out yet that you'd like to highlight.
- [33:24]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
So many. I mean, I could talk for hours. I think one of the big things was that we couldn't have contact with anyone that defected from the program. We were instructed, like, don't talk to them. Don't have relationships with them. Cut them out of your life. Even when I left a group that I had been involved in for two years, no one called to see where I went. No one checked in on me. It was a group I'd spent once a week with for two years. And it's just like, well, what was I doing all this for in the first place? Then like, if you're really caring about me and wanting to be concerned about my spiritual well being, then, like, where are you when I'm not showing up? So it was. It was messed up.
- [33:59]
Amanda Montell
I'm curious about the people running these programs or like, these therapists. They seem gay. Like, how obsessed are you? You just, like, want to be around gay people all the time. You know, it's like, are these conversion therapy cult leaders just gay? Like, what's the deal?
- [34:19]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
I would say 99% of them are gay. And they've said that they have changed and they see their goal and their role in life is to now help other people experience the change and transformation that they've experienced. I thankfully, I mean, I had a very difficult time in conversion therapy. It was very traumatic. But there are people who went through a lot worse things than I did. And sadly, there are so many stories of these former cult leader conversion therapy Ministry leaders who did really horrible things to people who were under their care, making them act out sexual fantasies or making them talk very graphically about things that they had experienced. And like, cuddle therapy. Like, there's so many weird things that happened in conversion therapy because there was no license for conversion therapy. There was no rule book to say, this is how it is, this is how it works. There was not 12 steps to follow to how to be straight. So everyone was just kind of inventing their own ways and means of doing this. Like, the end goal was, like, be straight, be heterosexual. But all these people kind of just created and invented their own ways of doing this therapy. It's not therapy, it's torture. But, like, they thought of different ways to do it and then enforced it on people. And, like, there's some really, really messed up stories that came out of it. And people who were sexually assaulted by their therapist or who were forced to act things out sexually or be naked with other people. Like, there's so many weird stories because none of it was regulated. Like, most of this didn't happen in therapist office. It was in church basements or offices and like, strip malls of people who are just like, hey, we're going to help you figure this out. I mean, it's all on unlicensed, unchecked,
- [35:55]
Reese Oliver
following that thread of things that people might not necessarily expect. There's a lot of emphasis on the harmful psychological consequences that come along with conversion therapy. Like, obviously, very rightfully so. But I'm wondering what you think some of the more overlooked consequences or some of the more maybe subtle ways that conversion therapy survivors have to confront their trauma in daily life.
- [36:17]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Yeah, I know for me personally, I dealt with substance. Substance abuse and addiction for a long time after I came out of conversion therapy. And for a long time, I just assumed I was following the script that they said that would happen to people like me if they chose to embrace the gay lifestyle, and that it was just kind of part of the culture to go crazy and do drugs and get drunk all the time. But I finally realized, no. Like, I was trying to numb the pain of everything that I had lost and the pain and the shame that I had inherited to believe about myself for all the years that I was in conversion therapy. And so I can look back at all of that now and say, I know that my substance abuse was the result of my time in conversion therapy. And there's a number of people that I still keep in touch with who I was in conversion therapy with. And there's like five or six of us who are all sober today. And we've all dealt with addiction and self harm like that. So that's one component. Another thing is just therapy in general. Like I mentioned this earlier, but like a lot of folks just were too afraid to go back into a therapeutic space because that space had been violated, that trust had been broken. And even if it was with a different clinician, like they just didn't trust that they could ever go back into a therapeutic space and get the genuine help that they needed. Another thing that I've struggled with with is just the inability to have a long standing relationship, a long standing committed relationship, because I just felt like I was unworthy of love, that those types of relationships were wrong or sinful. And so I've had a hard time like dating and I've had a hard time being in relationship just cause I don't know how to do that because for so long I was told that it was wrong. And I think there's always just gonna be that residual shame. I mean, when it teaches you how to be so hyper critical of yourself. Like that voice is always in the back of my mind. And the minute I quit conversion therapy, it wasn't like I was magically free and my best gay self. It took me years to peel away that shame and that fear and that self hatred and to finally be able to be comfortable in my own skin. And so I think that's one thing a lot of people don't understand is it's not just something that you go into. You do it for a minute and then you're out. It's like, no, it messes up everything and how you perceive the world. You know, we were always told our first instinct was the wrong instinct, that our gut feeling was wrong, that we couldn't trust ourselves. So even just to learn to trust my own intuition took me a very long time. Very long time.
- [38:22]
Amanda Montell
Tim, I want to like give you a hug. This is up. This is, this is, this is up. There is a special place in hell for people who make gay people feel this way. Like.
- [38:35]
Reese Oliver
Like what? Yeah, like I can't even imagine having to like relearn who you are. Like, I would even liken that to like a brain injury of some kind because you, you having to come to terms, like create a whole new. That's insane.
- [38:49]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
And like I didn't even know who I was because I was killing all of those parts of myself before I even allowed them to come to life. And so I didn't come out Till I was 28. I was a virgin until I was 29. It was a wild journey because I did not know who I was because I was just following a script that had been handed to me.
- [39:08]
Reese Oliver
Ugh.
- [39:09]
Amanda Montell
This book is going to help so many people. Like. Thank you for writing it.
- [39:17]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
The Colonels cooked up a new $10 bucket of the day just for you. Monday 24 nuggets for $10 Tuesday 8 piece fried chicken for $10 Wednesday 10 wings for $10 Thursday 8 tenders for $10 Friday 24 nuggets for. Oh, you guessed it, didn't you? $10 the $10 bucket of the day deal every weekday only at KFC. It's fig finger licking. Good prices and participation. Variable supplies last not available on third party ordering platforms. Tax extra.
- [39:48]
Amanda Montell
If you've ever blasted synth beats from your Boombox or burn CDs for your besties, this one's for you. As people get older, much like their music tastes, their health needs change. AG1 is the simple daily health drink designed to deliver over 75 essential daily nutrients in pre and probiotics to support energy, digestion and mood so you can make the most out of every decade and dance break. Learn more@drink ag1.com we have a couple more questions for you and then we're gonna play a game so you mentioned earlier the Supreme Court ruling in Colorado From March of 2026, March of this year, that weakened the state's ban on conversion therapy for minors. Could you talk a little bit more about that and what the repercussions of it might be? Because yeah, as we were talking about, like so many people, including myself until recently thought that conversion therapy was like this retro dwindling thing. But clearly that's not the case.
- [40:51]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
No. So there was a therapist in Colorado who believed that it was her right of free speech and religious freedom to be able to perform conversion therapy in a therapeutic setting. And so she got representation. It got all the way up to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court did agree with her that she should have the right to express her opinion in a therapeutic setting. And so that happened. Now a good thing that kind of came out of that, though, is just in the last week or so, the Colorado House has passed a bill that essentially is creating some hedge of protection around that. To say that a therapist is not allowed to force their own opinion on a minor, but they're allowed to express it, but they're not allowed to in a therapeutic setting, say that this is the only way to go, this is the only way you can be which is good. And they've opened up the window for the statute of limits limitations. So folks who have experienced conversion therapy and have had a negative experience with it, which is everyone are able to seek out legal recourse for that. Another little interesting thing that happened as well is that the Vatican, for the first time ever, has listened to the witness of LGBTQ Catholics on the topic of conversion therapy. And so while our Supreme Court is arguing whether or not it's an issue of free speech and religious freedom, the Vatican has said it is harmful. It causes enduring harm to anyone who is experiencing it. And so the Vatican is recognizing that this is. This is not a good thing, which is a victory, definitely. Like, Catholics have a long way to go on LGBTQ inclusion. And I think, you know, what's at stake and what's endangered now is there are a lot of these conversion therapy groups that we're hoping that the court would rule in this way. One in particular that's based in California, and they have listed their manifesto online to say that now that they know that they have the Supreme Court's backing, they want to work to get homosexuality added back into the diagnostic manual to say it's a disorder. They want states to start doing detransitioning services. They want insurance to cover detransitioning services. They've got a really wild agenda of things that they want to do. And this is one of the largest conversion therapy organizations that's active today, and they're represented by the same group that went with this Colorado therapist to the Supreme Court. And so I fear that we are going to see this become a little bit more mainstream. And so it's really incumbent on all of us to realize this is a clear and present danger, to advocate and to really speak up and protect LGBTQ youth, because they are the ones that are most vulnerable to this. And research shows that youth who experience conversion therapy are twice as likely to attempt suicide. And so these are real lives at stake. And these bans were put in place for a reason, to try to protect those children. But in Colorado already, it's been rolled back, and we'll probably see that happen in other states as well.
- [43:36]
Amanda Montell
Oof. Oof. Heavy, but important. Important to get this message out there.
- [43:42]
Reese Oliver
No. Incredibly important. And I'm learning a lot. I didn't realize what's happening right now, and I am appalled. And I'm wondering what advice you would give to a young person or teen that are trying to escape a situation where they're being pushed to do conversion therapy, or maybe they're already in it.
- [43:57]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Yeah. I mean, run as fast and as far as you can. And I understand that you might not be able to. And I would say. And this is something I would say to all queer people. I think that one of the most dangerous things that conversion therapy does is it says to queer people, spirituality is not for you. I'm not saying religion, but I'm just saying, like, spiritual expression. And I think it's very important to maintain that spiritual connection, whatever that looks like to you. I don't believe that that has to be contained to a particular faith group or to a church building. You can experience God, experience the divine, experience the higher power in any way that works for you, but don't let that spiritual side of you die because you're being told to believe that you can't have that experience because of who you are. And look for the helpers. Look for LGBTQ affirming churches. There tons of those that are out there. There's many great resources that exist that can help you navigate what it means to be queer. But whatever you can do, run as fast and far as away from anything that says that you have to change who you are to be accepted.
- [44:57]
Amanda Montell
Thank you so much for that. God, you're so good at talking about this. This is not easy like, you are really. Do I want to say the Lord's work, but I feel like that's not
- [45:10]
Reese Oliver
someone's work.
- [45:11]
Amanda Montell
You're doing someone's work. Okay, so now we're going to play a little game. This game is called Culty Quotes. It is a classic. Sounds like a cult game, and it's played like this. We're going to read a sequence of quotes that were either said by a classic cult leader from history or some conversion therapy nut job. And we found the quote online. So, yeah, after we read each individual quote, you're going to guess whether it was said by a cult leader or a conversion therapy proponent whose unfortunate language we uncovered on the Internet. Rhys, you want to start us off?
- [45:50]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, I would love to. The most powerful way we can live our lives is if we stick within the community. So when you come together as a community to achieve one specific goal, it's really just a beautiful thing that's given
- [46:02]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
cult leaders to me.
- [46:04]
Reese Oliver
Correct. You would be. That's Ms. Allison Mack of Nexium.
- [46:07]
Amanda Montell
Yes. Really, like second in command to. Well, maybe third in command. Next quote. All sexual sin affects the human personality like no other sin, for sexual issues run deep in our character. And change is slow and uphill, but is possible Nonetheless.
- [46:23]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
I mean, come on. Conversion therapy.
- [46:26]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. That is from the Love One out content conference, part of Exodus International. Are you familiar?
- [46:34]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
I went to one of those conferences.
- [46:36]
Amanda Montell
Oh, how was.
- [46:38]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Still have the notebook.
- [46:39]
Reese Oliver
Oh. Oh, no. The free. The free swag.
- [46:42]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Always need the swag.
- [46:43]
Reese Oliver
Okay, next quote. This church family is an example of what society will eventually be like. All over the world there will be at last peace on earth. I have seen this all by divine revelation.
- [46:57]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Oof. Culty.
- [46:59]
Amanda Montell
Cult.
- [47:01]
Reese Oliver
Correct. That's saddy Jim Jones.
- [47:04]
Amanda Montell
Yes, one of the worst. Okay, next quote. If in the next moment your behavior would affect all of humanity for forevermore, how would you behave? Every moment is such a moment.
- [47:16]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
That's tricky because there's some like conversion therapy esque language in there. But I'm gonna say culty.
- [47:21]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. And that is the man himself, Keith Ranieri. The. The nxivm daddy.
- [47:27]
Reese Oliver
To live in harmony with the gendered world. That is God's creation.
- [47:31]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Conversion all the way.
- [47:33]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, That's a rando. I have no clue who that is and I don't want to.
- [47:36]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, you are good. Okay, we've got one more quote for you. And it goes like this. And the only reason the system frowns on it is that the Bible has taught sex is evil, which is contrary to the Bible. How could God create a sexual enjoyment be a sin? The system is really screwed up. God help us. They're the ones not normal.
- [47:56]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
It so sounds conversion esque, but conversion therapy would say like some sex is bad. So I'm gonna say culty.
- [48:03]
Amanda Montell
You are correct. That was David Berg of the Children of God. You literally got a 100 on that. It wasn't a quiz.
- [48:09]
Reese Oliver
But you like Winnah or something.
- [48:13]
Amanda Montell
Oh my gosh, Tim, thank you so much for this conversation which was low key. Like I feel like one of the most significant conversations we've ever had on. Sounds like a cult. If people want to keep up with you and your work, where can they do that?
- [48:28]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Yeah, I am on the Instagram and I like the threads at Timothy srodriguez. I also substack Timothy S. Rodriguez and if they want to learn more about my book, they can go to conversion therapy Dropout book dot com.
- [48:41]
Reese Oliver
Hell yeah.
- [48:42]
Amanda Montell
Thank you so much.
- [48:44]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Yes, thank you.
- [48:51]
Amanda Montell
Okay, Rhys, it's time for our verdict. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back and get the fuck out, which do you think the cult of conversion therapy might fall into?
- [49:09]
Reese Oliver
Let me do a big hard think. Yeah, I wish everybody a very get the fuck out. And I hope it comes fast and quick and soon and lovingly. And I hope that you're able to get some real therapy soon in a way that's non traumatic for you. Peace and love and be very gay.
- [49:30]
Amanda Montell
I couldn't agree more. So well put. I wish like many drag bingos and many musicals and many hugs and blowjobs and hand jobs in your future. Side note, Rhys, have you ever seen. Well actually, actually like a central note. Have you ever seen the movie? But I'm a cheerleader.
- [49:49]
Reese Oliver
Yes, that's.
- [49:50]
Amanda Montell
That's just Shout Out. That's my favorite conversion therapy rom com
- [49:54]
Reese Oliver
of which there are many, obviously.
- [49:57]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, no, that one's just my favorite.
- [49:59]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
Yeah.
- [49:59]
Amanda Montell
It's a story of conversion therapy survival starring Natasha Leone and Clea Duvall. And I just highly recommend any who bless Tim, Bless you Rhys, bless queerness. And that's our show.
- [50:14]
Reese Oliver
Thank you so much for listening.
- [50:15]
Amanda Montell
Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty but not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult Cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com sounds like a cult
- [51:21]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of Unlimited Premier Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.
- [51:30]
Amanda Montell
So I thought it would be fun
- [51:32]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
if we made $15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [51:43]
Amanda Montell
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.
- [51:51]
Timothy Schrader Rodriguez
See terms@ZocDoc. We know being a healthy adult is like living in a video game. Every day has side quests, taxes, laundry, birthdays, and just when you're leveling up, you have to book a doctor. The insurance portal crashes. They put you on hold. Your doctor doesn't take your plan. Game over. We see you. So we made booking a doctor easy. Download Sockdoc Search by specialty, insurance and availability. Book instantly, no cheat codes required. Find a doctor you love with Sockdoc.
- [52:22]
Amanda Montell
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