The Cult of Digital Marketing Scams (The New MLM)

Summary

Summary of "Sounds Like A Cult" Episode: The Cult of Digital Marketing Scams (The New MLM)

Introduction In the August 12, 2025 episode of Sounds Like A Cult, host Amanda Montell, alongside co-host Reese Oliver, delves into the intricate world of digital marketing scams, portraying them as the modern evolution of multi-level marketing (MLM) schemes. The episode seeks to unravel whether these digital endeavors are merely scams or have transcended into cult-like entities.

Defining Digital Marketing Scams Amanda Montell introduces the episode by highlighting the nebulous nature of digital marketing, which often masks predatory practices under the guise of legitimate business opportunities. She states, “Digital marketing is an intentionally vague term and thus the scammy digital marketing cult exists in so many forms it's truly so disorienting” [07:53]. These scams range from selling courses that teach others to sell courses, creating an abstract and convoluted system that is hard to dissect.

Comparison to MLMs and Cults Reese Oliver draws parallels between digital marketing scams and traditional MLMs, emphasizing the cult-like characteristics they share. “There's very real consequences for exiting the group. That to me means it's much more culty than it is scammy” [25:04]. Michelle Mazur echoes this sentiment, noting that while traditional scams may involve straightforward financial exploitation, digital marketing scams entangle victims emotionally and socially, making disengagement challenging.

Tactics Used by Digital Marketing Scammers The podcast discusses various recruitment and retention tactics employed by these digital marketers. One prominent method is love bombing, where scammers inundate potential recruits with excessive praise and attention to build trust quickly. Maggie Patterson highlights the deceptive nature of these tactics: “They give you these success stories. It basically wears you down over time” [26:33].

Another tactic involves the endless upsell, where initial low-cost products or courses lead to more expensive offerings, trapping individuals in a cycle of escalating financial commitments. Reese Oliver explains, “They keep you. There's this escalating commitment that goes on and it's very culty in terms of how they indoctrinate you and how they keep you on the hook” [28:01].

Impact on Victims The consequences for individuals caught in these scams are severe, extending beyond financial loss to emotional and social repercussions. Reese shares, “People are losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. People are isolating themselves from real life” [09:33]. Amanda adds, “Time we are in right now with all of this chaos, it is perfect for these digital scams to rise” [49:47], emphasizing how economic instability fuels vulnerability to such schemes.

Red Flags to Watch For The hosts and guests outline several warning signs indicative of digital marketing scams:

1. Buzzwords and Phrases: Terms like passive income, financial freedom, and time freedom are heavily used to lure victims. Reese Oliver warns, “Anything you're getting in the territory of the words passive income, that should be treated as, like, a parade of red flags” [43:13].

2. Pressure Tactics: High-pressure sales techniques that urge immediate commitment are a significant red flag. “If someone is pressuring you to buy something today or like in the imminent future, that's such a red flag” [58:54].

3. Vague Promises: Courses that offer broad promises without concrete outcomes or detailed plans often conceal ulterior motives. Michelle Mazur points out, “These courses are incredibly vague. You're really buying the idea of financial freedom and ease” [30:43].

4. Endless Upsells and Escalating Costs: The continuous push for more expensive products or services traps individuals into deeper commitments. Reese Oliver notes, “There's this escalating commitment that goes on” [28:01].

Responsibility and Accountability The episode touches on the difficulty of holding digital marketing scammers accountable. Reese Oliver states, “Ultimately this is why consumer awareness is so, so important” [62:35]. While regulatory bodies like the FTC and platforms like Stripe are beginning to crack down, the decentralized and ever-evolving nature of these scams makes enforcement challenging. The hosts advocate for increased consumer education as a primary defense against these deceptive practices.

Horror Stories and Worst-Case Scenarios Reese Oliver shares distressing accounts of individuals who have suffered significant financial losses and personal hardships due to these scams. One poignant story involves a professional who liquidated her savings and sold her house to fund a meaningless course, ultimately losing around $50,000 with no returns. Such narratives illustrate the profound and often life-altering impact these scams can have on unsuspecting victims.

Conclusion Amanda Montell concludes the episode by categorizing the cult of digital marketing scams under the "get the fuck out" category, urging listeners to disengage and protect themselves from these pervasive schemes. The hosts emphasize the importance of critical thinking and skepticism in the digital age to prevent falling prey to such manipulative tactics.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Amanda Montell: “Digital marketing is an intentionally vague term and thus the scammy digital marketing cult exists in so many forms it's truly so disorienting” [07:53].
• Reese Oliver: “Anything you're getting in the territory of the words passive income, that should be treated as, like, a parade of red flags” [43:13].
• Reese Oliver: “People are losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. People are isolating themselves from real life” [09:33].
• Reese Oliver: “They keep you. There's this escalating commitment that goes on and it's very culty in terms of how they indoctrinate you and how they keep you on the hook” [28:01].
• Reese Oliver: “Ultimately this is why consumer awareness is so, so important” [62:35].

Final Thoughts Sounds Like A Cult skillfully dissects the dark underbelly of digital marketing scams, illuminating their sophisticated and cult-like operations. By featuring experts like Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur, the episode provides listeners with valuable insights and practical advice to recognize and avoid falling victim to these modern-day predatory schemes.

Transcript

[Amanda Montel]

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[Reese Oliver]

And sometimes it's coaching, sometimes it's digital products, sometimes it's courses. There's so many flavors of the scam.

[Amanda Montel]

They gaslight you into believing that their system is flawless. And if you don't succeed, then there's just something wrong with you.

[Michelle Mazur]

Digital products convert between 1 to 3%. They are outright lying to you about the ease to sell you this dream of financial freedom.

[Maggie Patterson]

Part of the American dream is being sold that return on investment this is.

[Amanda Montel]

Sounds Like a Cult A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel and I'm an author.

[Maggie Patterson]

And I'm your co host Reese Oliver. Sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar.

[Amanda Montel]

Every week on this show we discuss a different fanatical fringe group or guru from the cultural zeitgeist, from Trad Wives to Trader Joes to try and answer.

[Maggie Patterson]

The big question, this group sounds like like a cult. But is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? Live your life, a watch your back or a get the fuck out? After all, cultishness is in the eye of the beholder and not every culty looking group these days is equally bad. The point of this show is to analyze how culty behaviors show up in everyday life, including places you might not think to look. And you know, sometimes they're exactly where you thought they'd be, all cozied up on your IG Discover feed. How would you like to make your month's rent from your couch this weekend?

[Amanda Montel]

Indeed, this episode is dedicated to the Cult of the Digital Marketing Girlies, aka the new 2025 version of the early 2000s MLM Girlies who are trying to get you not to leave the prison of your 9 to 5 job to become your own girl boss and sell leggings from home, achieving the American dream without having to leave your kids, but rather the beige filtered clean girls promising to sell you a digital marketing course teaching you how to sell digital marketing courses. If you're confused, that is the point so are we to the point that we've already recorded this intro and it was so confusing that we have to do it again?

[Maggie Patterson]

The girlies are confusing.

[Amanda Montel]

The girlies are confusing and the girlies are confused. Basically, I've been wanting to do this episode for like six months because it feels like the Pokemon evolution of the anchor subject of this whole entire podcast. That being the multi level marketing industry, Digital marketing is an intentionally vague term and thus the scammy digital marketing cult exists in so many forms it's truly so disorienting and I hope by the end of this episode you'll understand it a little bit better and how to avoid it. But at first blush, the term digital marketing might conjure one of many images you you might think about like, I don't know, shady looking luxury marketing firms on LinkedIn. Or indeed. Or maybe you think of like social media scams that promise to help you increase your follower count, or SEO by thousands overnight, or like faceless accounts offering to sell you a cheap website domain with no strings attached. We get emails from such digital marketing scams in the Sounds like a Cult inbox every day. In fact, they're like the main type of email we get. So I I wish you culties would email us more often.

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah, please drown out some of the other bullshit we get.

[Amanda Montel]

All of those types of scams are important subjects and certain aspects of the conversation we're about to have with our guests will be applicable to each of those. However, I feel like the cornerstone of this episode and the element of the digital marketing scammer universe that got me interested is the digital marketing girly. And by that we mean the MLM Industries Self satisfied Tech girly Gen Z younger sister. These TikTok and IG digital marketing scammers of the 2000-20s take advantage of the wild west of unregulated social media based e commerce platforms to make bank or sometimes lose every dollar to their name and supposedly then teach you how to do the same. Indeed, these scams are so confusing because the MLM world is like ostensibly trying to help you sell an actual physical product, whether it's a pair of leggings or a supplement or some kind of fitness contraption. But the digital marketing cult is trying to get you to buy a course to teach you how to sell courses and it's just like so fucking abstract that I barely even know how to talk about it.

[Maggie Patterson]

And though yeah, the multi level marketing girlies have just been doing the hard work for so long of scamming people with shampoo, of scamming people with smoothies, of scamming people with powders. And one day the digital marketing girlies looked to their right and they saw that all of these bitcoin boys and NFT were selling canva doodles of monkeys and fake money. You know, we went, we wanted on that, hey, we could sell nothing too. And hence the digital marketing girly was born and now exists in perpetuity in a 10 slide carousel on your feed with a filter that you forgot existed.

[Amanda Montel]

Exactly, exactly. I brought this up during our interview. But the coldest thing about the digital marketing scammerverse to me at this point is that there is nothing tangible to even critique. And thus I almost just want to throw my hands up and walk away and be like, you know what, it can exist, it's fine.

[Maggie Patterson]

And I think they know that. I think they know that they exist more in vibe and they're not being really one solid leader. And it really being a cult more by means of tactic makes it so nefarious in that way and so difficult to pin down in conversations because everybody's experiencing it in a way that's tailored to them by their algorithm.

[Amanda Montel]

Exactly. Which is not to say that it's less dangerous, it's just more in its.

[Maggie Patterson]

Nascent yeah, bad people are harder to catch when they spread themselves out. They're not unifying themselves as one brand that you can look at and point to that have a clear enemy and a clear like we identify here and we don't hear like they can find you anywhere. And while they do have like types of people they identify more with, they're not making enemies. These either necessarily also like the consequences.

[Amanda Montel]

Of these various things are dramatic. Like people are losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. People are isolating themselves from real life. People are investing in some false promise of the American dream very much in the same way that the multilevel marketing industry is constructed. It's just again so hard to hold accountable because it's hard to articulate. But we're going to try.

[Maggie Patterson]

We're going to try. So most of the definitions for digital marketing come from people that are themselves trying to sell you a course. And most of these digital marketers will claim to help you or your business with or help you learn to teach others about online advertising, search engine optimization and marketing, social media marketing and management, content creation amongst a bunch of other things. This is all according to the American Marketing association and and nowadays popular digital marketing scam that I see often are the ones that are wanting to sell Courses to help aspiring influencers, salespeople, small business owners, really anyone looking for a passive income by teaching them to sell courses instead of acquiring any real life skills. It's like I was doing research into all of the people that have been duped by these scams and one Redditor said, you know, you make more selling shovels, which I guess here shovels are real resell rights. Like these shovels. Like these aren't even existent shovels. Like these are links, babe. Like these are Canva templates. Like it's bad. So yeah, most of the time what you're actually getting when you sign up for these courses is just like PDFs that are written by ChatGPT, deep seq, if you're lucky, infographic templates you can get on Canva and a bunch of other like algorithm numbing versus that is not going to make you stand out or create any kind of individual brand for you beyond the brand that recruited you in. Because at this point, so many of these things exist just like multi level marketing companies. It's such an oversaturated market, you will not make any kind of money.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, it's such a sign of the times. Everybody is encouraged to think of themselves as a brand and a small business. And I'm telling you, like, until I was forced to learn what marketing was to promote my own books, I did not know what marketing meant. And so if I were to see someone in my feed promoting one of these courses specifically for authors, bro, when I was like 25 years old, I would have fallen for it easily.

[Maggie Patterson]

We like to sit and talk about how, oh, the boomers on Facebook can't tell what's AI and what's not. And you know, they're calling for all of these online scams and they're getting malware on their computer and it's like, are we better? The call is coming from inside the house for sure.

[Amanda Montel]

For sure. And the sad thing too is that like marketing is an important skill if you're a small business owner, unlike a shitty diet shake. Like nobody actually needs that, even though that's like the product of a lot of MLMs. Small business owners actually need marketing prowess. It's just you're not going to learn it from these people. Now this is one of the first questions we pose to our guests and I'm excited to introduce them to you all. But all of this conversation thus far does beg the question, why are digital marketing scams occult? Why aren't they just a grift or a scam? And so much of the conversation that we had today is dedicated to answering that question question. Because I think in the context of today's labor market and just how hard it is to survive in the capitalist landscape these days, the cultometer on predatory industries like this is just dialed up much higher and we'll articulate what that looks like.

[Maggie Patterson]

So I talk about this a little with our guests later, but in trying to find examples for you all of the ways in which these influencers recruit, I came across one of the most nefarious recruitment tactics that I have ever seen. And it was at this moment when I realized like, oh, this is the way in which these are like the next evolution of the MLM girlies. Like they've taken the MLM playbook and we've learned. We are now taking into account the fact that we are living in an online culture wherein people are cognizant of scams and we are now not only playing coy and being cute and acting legitimate, we are purposefully evading that reputation. Should I put them on blash? I dropped their at.

[Amanda Montel]

I feel like yeah Jordan, we might.

[Maggie Patterson]

Tell you to cut their at later, but ummymarketing_lifes ig she posted top five mistakes every beginner makes when starting their digital marketing business and what to do instead. Number one Jumping into the wrong course. They buy hype instead of help. Flashy promises, no real plan. Choose strategy over aesthetics or you'll stay stuck and skint.

[Amanda Montel]

Wait, what is skint?

[Maggie Patterson]

ChatGPT can probably tell you and then they give you four other mistakes and then they say the fix a step by step strategy designed for real life, not hustle culture. One that works even if you've got kids, a job, or zero time to waste. That's exactly what UBC and the Secret Soft gives you. If you're tired of guessing and finally ready to grow DM UBC and I'll send the details. Stop the fact that a whole thing they're aware enough of scammy digital marketing courses that it is a core tenant of their course to tell you to avoid other courses or take advantage of the fact that you may have been scammed before.

[Amanda Montel]

Dude, yes, mistake number one.

[Maggie Patterson]

You picked the wrong mlm. Like what the fuck? It's just so transparent.

[Amanda Montel]

It's like telling on themselves while also trying to get in front of the narrative. It reminds me of this conversation I just had for the Magical Overthinkers podcast that I also do every two weeks. He tune in about gaslighting A listener wrote in to the academic that I interviewed for that episode about whether or not it's possible for a gaslighter to be, like, deeply deceptive and know that they're being deceptive, but also at the same time to believe their own bullshit. And she said yes. And she actually referenced a cult. You'll have to tune into the episode to learn which one and how. They had, like, kidnapped this woman and the woman, for her survival, convinced herself that she wanted to join this group. And they would simultaneously coerce her into doing all these things that she didn't want to do, but also be like, super anxiously, relentlessly checking in on her, being like, but you want to do this right? But you want to do this right?

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah. It's a make them think they thought of it thing.

[Amanda Montel]

Yes. And it's just like, it's such a mind fuck. I feel. Mind fuck thinking about the mind fuck.

[Maggie Patterson]

Exactly. And it only gets mindfucker. I want to share one more example that I truly just was astounded by.

[Reese Oliver]

Please.

[Maggie Patterson]

So I was researching and I was trying to find, again, people who had actually been scammed by digital marketing Girlies and Infinite Money Collective on Instagram got me good with this one they posted. I fell for a digital marketing scam. Here's my story and what you can learn from it. But wait, it's not a scam at all. What I actually did was craft a catchy hook using ChatGPT, a tool I learned about in my digital marketing course. As a total beginner, this course has been my gateway. Yada, yada, yada. So, again, opening with the premise of preying on people who have been scammed by digital marketing or who might be wary of getting into digital marketing or taking advantage of people who any semblance of critical thought left and absolutely eroding it and presenting themselves as the answer and the solution, which is like, we've been talking about all anyone wants online these days. It's tragic.

[Amanda Montel]

It sucks, because as you'll learn very shortly from our guests, the people who, like, founded this industry are, surprise, surprise, old men. And the people that I found this industry through on social media are moms who have privilege for sure, but who are otherwise locked out of the dignified labor market or are, whatever, pawns of the patriarchy. And in a way, it sucks that we're critiquing them and not the bros who founded all of this. But also, the girlies are just always going to be more interesting.

[Maggie Patterson]

To me, the girlies are going to be more interesting. And I do think there's an aspect of traitorism to it. Just something about the scamming girl boss is so predatory given how women have such a complicated history with labor and it's just really nasty to me and.

[Amanda Montel]

They look like such girls girls, but they are not.

[Maggie Patterson]

That's really gets me about it.

[Amanda Montel]

So I think it's high time that we get into this juicy, illuminating and at the same time confuse ifying little interview with none other than two of the digital marketing cult most devoted critics. They are the hosts of a podcast called Duped the Dark side of Online Business. They are seasoned marketers themselves, Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur behind the Instagram account BS Free Business. So stay tuned after the break to hear our conversation with them. Okay Culties, I want to let you in on a secret. If you're paying rent every single month without earning anything in return, allow me to introduce you to bilt, the rewards program designed to earn renters valuable points on their largest monthly expense. Let me explain. By paying rent through bilt, you earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and more. But it doesn't stop there. BILT is about making your entire neighborhood more rewarding. You can dine out at your favorite local restaurants and earn additional points, get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, and enjoy exclusive experiences just for BILT members every month. BILT is turning a monthly expense into an opportunity to earn rewards and discover the best your neighborhood has to offer. Your rent is finally working for you. Earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to joinbilt.com cult that's J-O-I N B I l make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Maggie and Michelle, could you please introduce yourselves to the culties here at Sounds Like a Cult and how you began critiquing digital marketing scammery in your work.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, that is a long story, but we'll try to sum it up to be very succinct. So Michelle and I are both marketers by profession, have worked in Corporate have worked for a big corporate and we're both self employed. We're in this world of the online business, digital marketing that can be very scammy and culty. And we were kind of having this continuous conversation behind the scenes where we were like, this isn't normal. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Like, did you see this post on Instagram? And eventually we're just like, you know what, these conversations need to be more mainstream because we'd be talking to friends and groups and they'd be like, oh yeah. And we really decided to launch our duped podcast and start really doing consumer, consumer advocacy because we can't stop the scammers, but we can help the end consumer be more educated and understand like, hey, you're not going to get rich because this ad on Instagram said so.

[Michelle Mazur]

And fun fact, Maggie and I became friends because I met her on social media and decided that she and I were going to be friends. And I stalked her until I made it happen. I mean, not like that's wholesome, stocky.

[Reese Oliver]

Stuff, but you, you kept it classy. I wasn't scared.

[Michelle Mazur]

I know I kept it classy, but she was like a person I met and I was like, she and need to be friends. Because I saw that we just had so much overlap, like with her background in corporate and marketing and my PhD in calm. I was like, we have so much to talk about so we have to be friends. So I stalked her.

[Amanda Montel]

Beautiful origin story.

[Reese Oliver]

It's hard to make friends.

[Maggie Patterson]

Oh my gosh, it is impossible. I would love if each of you could tell us what you think the cultiest thing about digital marketing scams is.

[Michelle Mazur]

I feel like there are so many culty things about digital marketing and for me, I think the cultiest is also this grift of like how easy it can be. And it's like there are people who are out there wanting to give you $500. They have their credit cards. Like you don't have an audience, you don't have a problem. You can just sell this so easily and make tens of thousands of dollars a month and it' just such crap. Because audience growth is hard. Digital products convert between 1 to 3%. They are outright lying to you about the ease to sell you this dream of financial freedom. And to me that is super freaking culty and scammy and I hate it.

[Reese Oliver]

I think beyond that, the other really culty thing is there is no allowing for critique. It is all positive vibes and toxic positivity all the time. Where if you know you comment and say like, hey, can you explain this to me? Like, even a good faith question is immediately deleted. There is absolutely no room for critique or dissent. And that is something we see time and time again. And it's the biggest red flag when the leader or the so called creator or whatever will not take any even legitimate questions.

[Amanda Montel]

Totally. So I want to ask, because this, this is a question that came up when I was incorporating my chapter on multi level marketing into my book Cultish, and then when we covered it on the podcast, what is the difference between a scam and a cult? Like, when does something transition into something more complex and life consuming? In the case of MLMs, and I would love to hear more about what you two think about how these digital marketing scams might be MLMs in a new cloak or whatever. But in the case of multi level marketing, it felt like more than a scam because these organizations seem to have a language and culture all their own. They had these like strong and pervasive ideologies that were missionary in character. Members came to revere their founding leaders who shared a desire not just to run a successful company, but to literally rule the free world on the level of religious worship. And they condition and coerce you with these loaded buzzwords. That toxic positivity that you mentioned and those us versus them dynam were so profound, they gaslight you into believing that their system is flawless. And if you don't succeed, then there's just something wrong with you. And it's just obviously something so much more than like, I'm gonna get your cash real quick and then leave you alone. How do you think that these digital marketing scams resemble something more like a cult than your average temporary grift?

[Reese Oliver]

I think from my perspective, one of the things we see a lot of is there's very real consequences for exiting the group. That to me means it's much more culty than it is scammy. Because in some of my work I've talked a lot about, like the financial abuse that happens. I've talked about consequences, like stories from people like what happens when you leave the group? Well, what happens when you leave the group? A lot of these people lose their entire business support system. They lose friendships the same way you would have when you exit a cult or even an mlm.

[Michelle Mazur]

I agree with that. I think scams to me are just like a financial exploitation. It's a cash grab. And then you can usually leave because the scammer exits and leaves your life completely and you're just left with A hole in your bank account. Whereas these culty digital scams, they take up a large part of your time. They're like controlling your behavior because you have to spend all this time on calls with them and in their community and then actually doing the work of putting the marketing out there. And then if you decide to leave, all of that goes away. You are shunned. People block you on social media and these are people you thought were your friends and they are not. And if you say anything negative at all, whoever the course leader is will send their flying monkeys after you in order to shut you down.

[Maggie Patterson]

That sounds so hostile and awful and actually leads perfectly into my next question. Just from more of an outsider perspective, because I get served some of this, but I think at this point my for you page is like, we know she's not, not interested. It seems to me that MLMs have kind of a stronger group identity or brand thing going on. Whereas for the digital marketing scammer of today, it's much more about her own personal branding and her own feed. And I'm wondering what impact that aspect of digital marketing has on the community culture.

[Michelle Mazur]

It's interesting because these digital marketing schemes are more decentralized than a typical cult or an mlm, but they're still super duper culty. And I think one of the things is there's this indoctrination through identity. Like typically these digital scam artists are targeting moms, for instance. And you're not just buying a course, you're buying into a lifestyle, you're becoming her, the woman who has it all. And it's very aspirational and identity based. And the deeper you go, the more it's about being a part of this elite club of action takers or freedom seekers. So essentially they are shifting your identity so you become a part of that group.

[Reese Oliver]

The one thing I see a lot of is it's like the endless upsell. So the same way you see in a lot of like things we would label as, you know, actual cults, like you need, you're ascending through the levels of cults I will not name because they're litigious. Like, you know, you're going through all the nine levels or whatever. I'll use Nexium. You're going through the sashes. Yes, it's the same thing. You start out with maybe like a $27 product and you get into the ecosystem and then you buy a $97 product and then it's like they just keep you. There's this escalating commitment that goes on and it's very culty in terms of how they indoctrinate you and how they keep you on the hook. And then that's where we get into. Yes, there's financial abuse, but there is a lot of emotional abuse. In terms of something you said off the top is like you just didn't work hard enough, you didn't believe hard enough, you're not system those types of things. And that's where this really gets really messy. Because yes, there's money being lost and people tend to focus on that, but there is time and there's personal consequences for a lot of these people.

[Amanda Montel]

So something that I think makes digital marketing scams harder to clock as culty than MLMs is that they feel like quite of the moment, you know, like everybody wants to self brand, everybody wants to learn about marketing. Although I am curious how this whole cult will like survive AI replacing marketers, but whatever, that's like a different can of worms. Anywho, with MLMs I understand quite well what many of those levels look like. And it's so much about buying inventory and recruiting new people to your downline at this impossible rate. But like, what are these levels in this like unbelievably abstract world of just like courses and assets and like, I just don't understand it. Like it like is breaking my brain. Like what are we all talking about? Like what are we buying?

[Michelle Mazur]

I think that is the point. We don't know what we're buying. I mean these courses are incredibly vague. I was revisiting some of the sales pages the other day and it's like you're getting a bunch of modules and it's like crash course into Instagram, a crash course into LinkedIn and selling on TikTok and there's no real outcomes. You're really buying the idea of financial freedom and ease and that you can make your family $5,000 extra a month, which would be a big freaking deal right now in this economy. And so that's the point. It is intentionally vague. And when you buy these things, you will probably be underwhelmed by the content.

[Amanda Montel]

I remember I interviewed the economist Stacey Bosley for Dish who talked about how in multilevel marketing culture, so much of it is about the purchase of hope. Someone who's popping from, I don't know, Mary Kay to Avon to whatever, is not necessarily that passionate about the products that they're selling. They're passionate about these much loftier promises of financial independence and patriotism even and the American dream and all of that, that and with multi level marketing, I mean there's been so much reporting done at this point about that industry. Obviously the podcast the Dream is so iconic and I learned so much about the industry from Jane Marie, who created that podcast that I imagine so many of those listening to this episode have heard. And you can trace the MLM industry back to like Earl Tupper and Tupperware and like, you know, and, and to so many individuals like the founders of Amway, the DeVos family, Donald Trump himself. Like there are so many sort of like leaders and figure heads upon whom you can place blame. But who would you say if anyone is like at the helm of the cult of digital marketing, like, who's the cult leader here?

[Reese Oliver]

Oof. This is such a good question. So this is something that Michelle and I have debated at length over the years and I think the thing to think of is like it's less about having a leader and it's more like a lineage. So. So it's really the algorithm and the idea of freedom and the financial freedom. It's just being constantly kind of serving you up this content, whether it be at, you know, paid or organic content. And you, what you'll see is like, you know, you're on threads. Well, you see all these people making these income claims, they're sharing their doctored up screenshots, which is, you know, oh my God, we have so many examples of these things and really it starts to wear you down. You think, okay, you know what, this can't be that bad. So these scams that we're seeing now are really about remixing old schemes we've seen many times. There's definitely influenced by self help. It's influenced by a lot of culty tactics that have been borrowed over the years. And we'll see in big name self help leaders and how they bring in those culty tactics. I know you've talked about them on the show in the past. They used to have these things like called private label rights. Now they become master resell rights which then becomes PDF farming.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh my God, my brain is like short circuiting. Like I hate all of the terminology. It's like so confusing. Confusing, yes.

[Reese Oliver]

And that's part of it, right? Like in a typical culty thing, they're using these big, where you go like PDF farming. Well, I don't have a tractor. Like I'm not on a farm. What's happening ultimately, like if you look at digital marketing schemes, it really zooms back out to there are these basically grandmas and granddads of early Internet marketing that have begot this really disease set of family trees. So we have this entire orchard of disease trees that continues to infect us, all of us.

[Amanda Montel]

Who are those grandmas and granddads? Like, are they dead or are they like 45 years old?

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, they're like 60 plus.

[Maggie Patterson]

Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

This is like generation by generation. And I think the thing that's really interesting for us is I literally will see someone new pop up and I'm like, oh, they've been influenced by this person, this person, this person. You can tell how they market, you can tell how they talk about their products. And sometimes it's coaching, sometimes it's digital products products, sometimes it's courses. There's so many flavors of the scam, but at the end of the day, it all goes back up to this like, you know, core group of these people.

[Maggie Patterson]

Wait, who, who, who, who are they?

[Amanda Montel]

Who are they?

[Reese Oliver]

Well, if anyone wants to dig into this, the syndicate, Google that and your brains will break.

[Michelle Mazur]

I will give you a few examples because these are the granddaddies and some of them are out of business because they've actually sold their culty marketing businesses to other people. One of the OGs is Dan Kennedy, Magnetic Market, one of the first, I think, kind of bro marketers using a lot of manipulative tactics. Frank Kern, who is a copywriter, is part of this lineage, like direct response, but really exploiting the work of Robert Cialdini. His book Persuasion in particular. Instead of using that as a guidebook of like, oh, I need to be responsible with my persuasion, they're like using it as the book of like, okay, how can I scam people out of.

[Reese Oliver]

Money and tell them what they want.

[Michelle Mazur]

To hear so they get their credit card out? So I feel like some of the, those are like the OG people, but they have left the field and have sold their businesses. Although I think Frank Kern, he's up there in like a million, he's like a million years old.

[Amanda Montel]

How did these dinosaur scammer motherfuckers get all the way to like the beige toned mommies on Instagram? How did that trickle down like that?

[Reese Oliver]

So it's really interesting that kind of the granddaddies, or maybe even the great granddaddies now we, I mean they make be the great, great. We don't know, we'd have. I'd have to draw out the tree, which I have in a notebook somewhere. But here's the thing is what they did is they started getting in with a lot of really big self Help names like Tony Robbins had them coming in and training him on Internet marketing. So a lot of these tactics became very, very mainstreamed. Then we saw people come in that maybe you wouldn't have identified as a bro marketer, but was getting trained by these people. And basically the same way we see with a downline in an mlm, there's just this really tangled, never end layers and layers and layers. Like this person got these four big names, these four big names, then got 24 more big names. And it just goes on and on and on. I've been working in the Internet marketing online business world since 2013 and I literally still don't know branches of this tree. Like it's everywhere and it's insidious.

[Michelle Mazur]

And I remember when I first started my business, like coming out of academia, I didn't know it at the time. I went to like one of these big named people who was from this family tree. And I was sitting in a video training of his and he said something, he's all like, oh yeah. And you don't have to be an expert. All you need is a great story. You know, tell your rags to riches story about like how you were sleeping next to your Cousin's toilet, like $100,000 in debt and then you started this business and that's all the credibility you need. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, wait, but I actually know my shit. I am an actual expert in what I do. But that didn't start with that marketer. It came from his lineage, almost like his upline in some ways.

[Maggie Patterson]

Wow. It's like rewriting bible stories to create these grandiose, like, no, sometimes people just work hard and like learn and are good at things. That's terrible. So obviously lying is up there with one of the worst ways you can recruit. What are some of the other more nefarious ways that you have seen these digital marketing scammers recruit? It is such a vast landscape that I feel like there are as many different ways to recruit as there are people. But we're pointing out these very distinct lineages. So describe some of the tactics.

[Michelle Mazur]

I feel like one big tactic is playing on economic anxiety and mom guilt. Because I feel like a lot of these faceless Instagram accounts and digital marketers, they are real, really preying on moms, similar to an mlm. So it's that be there for your kids and make passive income from your phone. And in this current economic hellscape that we are in, people are extra vulnerable to that message. And so they're like, oh, I can be a good mom and provide for my family and it's not gonna take me any time away from my family. I'm just posting on Instagram, it's no big deal.

[Maggie Patterson]

And then you don't realize that like all that time that you're at home with your kid, it's like how, how much is your kid ever actually seeing your eyes? I don't think so. Probably never.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah.

[Michelle Mazur]

And it is about like, yeah, you're selling them this idea of ease when really what you would have to do to make these businesses work to just sell 10 of these digital courses, right? Just 10amonth. Like it would be constant hosting content, constant showing up, constant interaction with followers and really they're selling like ease and time freedom. But you're just, it's a one way ticket to burning out and not seeing your kids. So it's not giving you any of the things that you actually want and it's just taking from you.

[Reese Oliver]

I just want to add to what Michelle was saying. One of the things we see a lot of and a lot of people share their stories to us in response to what they hear on Duped. You know, they DM us and like we on our show don't name names because we really don't to want focus on this person is bad. We want people to learn the tactics. That's been a really deliberate thing. But we hear the names behind the scenes and what we see a lot of tons of love bombing. Rhys, you say, oh, I have a question about digital marketing. Whatever, whatever. Next thing you know, like I'm inundating you with the bestie behavior. I'm acting like your new best friend and it's relentless until you buy and then I drop you like a hot.

[Amanda Montel]

Do you find that mostly the people who get lured in by these taxes tactics are former mlmers or do you think there are a lot of people who maybe wouldn't even fall for an MLM because that's not their culture or they've, you know, come across anti MLM TikTok or whatever, yet they still would fall for a digital marketing scam. Like who is the target here?

[Reese Oliver]

I have a theory on this. I think that it's one part the people we see especially with like the master resell right rights stuff in terms of digital marketing scams. I feel like a lot of those people are people that have picked up on the anti MLM stuff, but they're very susceptible to that messaging. They really want to be able to stay home they want to be able to do those things. But I absolutely believe, whether it be specifically a course or a program or a coach or whatever, that pretty much anyone who's running a business or what is what we would call a wantpreneur, is very susceptible to that. Because. Because anyone who wants to be self employed very much has hope. There's this like relentless optimism. You have to be a little bit delusional, right? If not a lot delusional. So it plays on that constantly. They give you these success stories. It basically wears you down over time. And I, I spend a lot of time for my work and what we do on duped, tracking these things, cataloging them, watching for trends. And there are times I send stuff to Michelle and I, I'm like, you know, maybe I should just. I'm like, oh, even the person talking about consumer awareness is being lured in. I know all the tactics and it's still appealing.

[Amanda Montel]

Okay, so a couple of things. Talking about this subject matter makes me disoriented. Like it is all so confounding. I like have trouble even like gathering my thoughts, which is difficulty. Literally. Yeah. My only job is to get gather thoughts. So when I am sort of.

[Maggie Patterson]

It's not good.

[Amanda Montel]

I start, yeah, it's not good. But then, okay, so I identify as highly delusional as a self employed person who wants to remain self employed for my whole life. And I am also quite interested in marketing. And when my book Cultish was coming out, I mean, I'll be honest, this whole podcast was started as a marketing exercise for my book. I am very interested in and like clever marketing tactics that don't feel like it, which is honestly the opposite of these digital marketing courses which like, yes, only feel like marketing, but anyway, without.

[Maggie Patterson]

Any of the fun stuff even.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, literally. So I feel like I could be inveigled by someone. Maybe not. The beige tones don't really speak to me, but if someone specifically was like targeting authors who want to learn how to start their own engines or whatever, I feel like, like I could totally see myself being at least curious attending some kind of introductory thing. So what are some red flaggy buzzwords to look out for? Please inform us because I mean, obviously that's my clue. Number one, help us understand what are some of these first signs that the marketing coach you're looking at might actually be a marketing coach scammer, linguistically speaking.

[Reese Oliver]

Okay, so I'll talk buzzwords and then Michelle, do you want to talk deceptive phrases? Because there's a lot.

[Michelle Mazur]

Yeah, I can do that. Yes. Okay.

[Reese Oliver]

Because we could honestly go on for days and days, but anytime you're getting in the territory of the words passive income, that should be treated as, like, a parade of red flags, because there is no such thing as passive income.

[Maggie Patterson]

Like, I'm lying on the beach washing over me.

[Amanda Montel]

That would totally get me. Oh, my God, I. I would be so susceptible to that promise.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. And you think about it, right? You're working hard, you're maybe feeling a little burnt out. You're just like, oh, wouldn't it be great if money just rolled in while I was sleeping or while I was on vacation?

[Maggie Patterson]

And I think part of the American dream is being sold that, like, return on investment and that, like, if I do just stare at my phone for 12, 15 hours a day, I will earn the passive sitting there as I'm washed over with money. That never happens.

[Reese Oliver]

Exactly. I always refer to these with my clients as pina colada dreams. Like, you're just sipping pina coladas on the beach and the money is just those PayPal notifications are going wild. And the other one we see a lot of is people talk about, like, time, freedom, financial freedom. Like, the word freedom is used. It is. So I don't trust anyone who says freedom, because at this point, in the context of business, like, it is just over simplifying something that is so complex to be like, I've got the secret recipe. It's like, no, no, no, no, no digital assets. Nobody should be speaking about anything as assets. I'm buying a course with assets. What?

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah. Like, what is a digital asset? My asset is my 1997 Princess Diana beanie Baby with hang tag. Like, let's talk about what matters, people.

[Reese Oliver]

Exactly. Anything that's talking about faceless content, that should absolutely be a no. Know, like, you don't even have to show your face. And I will say, when we talk this, I always like to do this disclaimer is there are legitimate reasons why people will do faceless content, but not in this context. Anything in the make money while you sleep also, too, should just be like a immediate no.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, my God. I cannot even tell you how attractive all of these. I normally am quite resistant.

[Maggie Patterson]

Can you tell how overworked this woman is?

[Amanda Montel]

I am. I'm tired. I'm so tired. And I genuinely think that being burnt out is an underrated vulnerability. In terms of these days, you think of people being, like, gullible or just sort of, like, desperate or whatever. But what about being actually, like, overemployed? You know, like I think that's why this is appealing these days is because a lot of people are just like grinding and hustling so hard and they just want to lie down and take a nap and wake up and find $300 in their account.

[Maggie Patterson]

Same.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. And I think the interesting point of that is most of the time when we hear stories from people, it's never who you would expect. Like, these are accomplished, smart people who had a vulnerable moment and got taken advantage of. And sometimes that's just a. I'm not going to say just flippantly, but like a 497 course. And sometimes we're talking like they've lost a hundred thousand dollars that they took out of their 401k because they got bought in. Oh. Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Mazur]

Oh, yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, yeah. So liquidating things, selling homes. Sometimes people get in really, really deep. The financial abuse here is astounding for PDF resale rights.

[Maggie Patterson]

Come on now, y'. All.

[Amanda Montel]

Hold on.

[Michelle Mazur]

Wait.

[Amanda Montel]

What does that mean? That's. What. What is a PDF resale? Right?

[Maggie Patterson]

I don't know. I'm just throwing words together like they do. Man. I don't know.

[Amanda Montel]

That sounds real, but I think that.

[Michelle Mazur]

Gets into some of the deceptive phrasing, right? Like, I went to some of the sales pages yesterday just to pull some real, like, examples. A product that is a hundred percent yours without having to create a single slide. They're giving you everything you need. It's so easy, whether it's a PDF or a video or a slide deck, like, it is yours to sell as much as you want. We also see big statements like, oh, I made $73,000 in 47. All you have to do is just follow the roadmap. You don't need any experience in marketing to make this work. Roadmap?

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah, because they've got you. They're going to show you everything. You don't need to worry about any kind of knowledge. And maybe there should be some kind of red flag that that's because this isn't very skilled labor. But no, it's.

[Amanda Montel]

It's just well and very customized. Like, there is no one size fits all marketing plan for anyone. It's a lot of throwing spaghetti at the wall. And that is not as attractive sounding as a roadmap. As bummed as I am that summer is winding down sartorially, I'm actually kind of excited about it because fall clothes are my favorite, especially now that I've discovered the timeless, high quality staples of quints, which are perfect for a fall capsule wardrobe of mixing and Layering. I'll never forget the very first thing I got from Quince was a cashmere crew neck sweater in like a robin's egg blue color. Great to wear with either jeans or a skirt. Indeed, their chic cashmere and cotton sweaters start at just $40. That is half the price of similar brands. And the way Quince is able to pull that off is by working directly with artisans, cutting out the middleman. So the savings go directly to you. To us. I also love Quince's homewares section. I recently got some drinking glasses from them and everything on the Quint website is so timeless. High quality, ethically made and affordable. There is just truly no downside to checking out the site. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quint. Go to quince.com/for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C-E.com slac to get free shipping and 365 day return returns. Quince.com slac Abercrombie Denim is everything right now. Denim should feel like this. Confident, easy, like your butt has never looked better. If you didn't know, Abercrombie's Curved Love denim went viral in 2019 for eliminating waist gap and it's still a game changer. Between that and their classic fits with a straighter line from waist to hip, the perfect denim does exist. Shop Abercrombie Denim in the app, online and in store.

[Maggie Patterson]

So let's talk a little bit more about how exactly this has become such a problem in the first place. If there are so many people like us who find it so disgusting, to what do you attribute the rapid culty ascension of the IG girly course reseller brand of digital marketing scheme?

[Michelle Mazur]

We are in this crisis of capitalism right now. Wages are stagnant. The new inflation report came out today. It's at like 2.7%. Childcare is expensive and selling these digital assets just feels like an easy way out because it taps into the fantasy that you can out hustle this broken system. We're in with a Canva template and a resold course and we did an episode of Duped because I got obsessed with the question of like, why do people fall for get rich quick schemes? Because I just, I couldn't understand it. Like our parents, parents raise us to believe. Like if it sounds too good to be true, it definitely is. And what I found is these get rich quick scams, they really started in the 1920s when we were having a Lot of economic uncertainty because of the crash on Wall Street. People were struggling to get by. It was dire. So hearing this message that you can have control over your financial life when there is high uncertainty and less opportunity, it makes you think like, great, I can pull myself up by my bootstraps. This is the American dream. I am in control of my destiny. And I can just post on Instagram, set up a stand store and I can start making money. And if your family is struggling and you think, oh, I can sell 10 of these a month and make 5k, that's life changing money. Money for the people who are struggling. And the problem is that these courses become saturated so quickly. They have a very short shelf life until you tap out. And so the new scams just keep coming and you're like, oh, well, I can take control of my destiny if I just keep trying. I can pull myself up by my bootstrap. So the time we are in right now with all of this chaos, it is perfect for these digital scams to rise.

[Amanda Montel]

I feel like I've been hearing some flavor of this for so many years and it's like, oh, it's that meme where it's like your entire adulthood is just like, oh yeah, things are really going to cool down at the end of this month. And then it just like never does until you die. And that kind of feels like the way the labor market is moving in America. Oh yeah, it's like, oh, the get rich quick self help boom is certainly going to crest and fall at some point soon. And it just doesn't just like rebrand.

[Reese Oliver]

I've been waiting.

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montel]

So I have to ask, you mentioned the smart, conscientious people liquidating their. Sorry, I'm going to say it, I'm going to say it, I'm going to say it. Assets and going broke to sign up for these digital marketing courses. Could you talk a little bit more about some like, horror stories and worst case scenarios that you've heard of that our listeners could maybe see themselves in? Because I'm still like struggling to see how bad this could really, really, really get.

[Reese Oliver]

I mean, this is really hard to wrap your head around unless you start seeing it. And I think the one distinction I want to make before we kind of share some of these stories is the digital marketing scams. These course reseller things, they're often the gateway to much bigger things. Okay, so a lot of the people that are selling, you know, like I'm selling my master resell rights or my PDF farming thing to you, I'M now going to sell you coaching. When it's. It doesn't work. Now you're going to start coaching with my mentor, and then you're joining a mastermind, and then you're doing this. Like, there's this escalation of commitment. So we look at something like these digital marketing scams and go, oh, it couldn't be that bad. But it is part of a much bigger ecosystem, and people tend to get really sucked in. And I always think of one of Michelle and I's mutual friends, super smart, had a career in really, really big corporate. And I think at the end of the day, it was about $50,000 she had poured into coaching. There was no need for it. And I mean, the return on that, that was zero. And she was very public about it. But also some of the stories she was hearing in these groups she was in, we're talking people living in their car because they sold their house so they could pay this coach. They are extreme examples, but they happen more than we recognize. And a lot of it ties back to, you know, Amanda and the magical thinking. We get into the manifestation, well, if I spend $80,000, I'm gonna get my $80,000. Leap and the net will appear. Well, no. And we hear these stories all the time. I mean, we're not in our producing our season right now, so the stor slowed down a little bit. But soon as we start dropping episodes, it picks right back up. And I'm like, oh, here we go. Bad story on Instagram again today. Okay.

[Amanda Montel]

And here's the disturbing thing about this to me, and I know that this is a pattern and we say it every week, but it's really resonating with me today for some reason. Like, there is a grain of truth in some of these promises. There are some people who need to hear leap in the net will appear. Like Rhys, for example.

[Reese Oliver]

Stop it.

[Amanda Montel]

Who's moving to New York and being very diligent and deliberative.

[Maggie Patterson]

She's just being in that move.

[Amanda Montel]

No. And that's so valid. But that's what's hard about living in the digital age, is that I think a lot of us are, like, quite disconnected from when to trust our intuition and when to make a pro con list. Because we're living in such an informationally overwhelming and in many ways psychologically oppressive time. And. And so that really paves the way for some of these scammers to come in and fuck with your intuition and fuck with your critical thinking. If you've managed to develop any of those Skills somehow.

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah, I totally hear that. Because as a gen zer I am learning more and more that this is so fake. But all the time there's this overwhelming feeling of well, surely there is some person or presence or figure or entity that knows better than me that I can look to and that can teach me and tell me. And I think we're all looking for that in the digital marketing course we sign up for and nobody knows, nobody knows. And it's the wild west and they know that they know that you don't know and they know that they don't know and everybody knows that nobody knows.

[Amanda Montel]

And yeah, yes, I think something like we fail to recognize because it's, it's harder than just believing that someone has all the answers. Is that like you can have a caucus of experts in your life and get like a little bit of wisdom for from each one, but that doesn't feel as soothing as here is one answer in the form of a digital marketing course, you know, and I think.

[Reese Oliver]

The thing that's interesting in all of this is that when you think about I'm going to buy a marketing course so they can give me this grand wisdom, they know that you're looking for that. So they're pairing it with tactics that are designed to shut down your critical thinking to get you to commit. They're doing all these classic culty things, you know, using persuasion tactics in ways they are not supposed to be applied. So someone who's an actual expert and I'm sure Michelle will co sign this is not going to do those things and maybe it's not as appealing because they don't seem quite as confident to be like hey, are you going to commit today?

[Amanda Montel]

Uh huh, uh huh.

[Michelle Mazur]

But do you know where they get the actual experts? Because like I work mostly with people who run these expertise driven businesses and they are smart and they've been in business for a while and they got loads of experience and they are so curious and so hungry. And marketing is something they just don't understand at all because they're like, shouldn't good work speak on its own? And it's like no, you gotta market it. So then their curiosity and their love of learning drives them into these courses where they're hearing like, oh, there's one right way to do this. And then there's these manipulative tactics like seeded in and they're like oh, but like that doesn't feel good to me. And if they say that then they're shut down. They're told like nope, you Gotta do it this way. This is the way to do it. And then it erodes your intuition and it erodes your self trust. And by the time they get to me, they're kind of a mess. Like they don't know what they're doing wrong and why they suck so bad at this. And it's like, yeah, it's not your fault. It's just how these courses are taught in a very culty way.

[Amanda Montel]

Yes, it is. Because to make someone feel like they're the problem when this digital marketing course is actually useless, it's clever, I guess, because then they're perfectly positioned to be sold an extra level of coaching, like you said. Something you said earlier also reminded me of a buzzword maybe to look out for. If anyone is ever pressuring you to buy something today or like in the imminent future, that's such a red flag. And even people who aren't like that can still be scammy. Because I was watching the Netflix documentary about the college admissions scandal the other night. Oh yeah, that's the type of white collar crime that really fascinates me. But the reason why the guy who ran that college admissions scam was able to get away with it for so long, even though it was a very unsophisticated scam, was because he would play this long game with people. He would never pressure them to sign up today or make a huge investment today. He would play the game over months and months and months. So surely if someone is pressuring you to make a fast decision, that's no good.

[Michelle Mazur]

And I think it all goes to me. I always think about the level of risk. Right. We make fast decisions when something like we're at the grocery store and we're thinking about trying a new flavor of yogurt because, okay, we blew three bucks, it's not the end of the world. But some of these people are trying to get you to buy on, on a call and get you to spend 5,000, 10,000, $15,000. And you're like, oh. And it's all this pressure and they're just shutting down your critical thinking. And it feels like the only solution to escape that pressure is to buy. And that is horrible and culty and a lot of business, especially in the digital marketing scammy space.

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah. The human brain is not meant to be confronted with a decision of that magnitude and that amount of time in not a real format in front of them. That shouldn't happen.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. And like one of the things we've heard a lot of that even like adds an extra layer and I'm probably going to break your brains a little bit with this is they will literally be like, hey, we have financing for this or I'll stay on hold while you apply with our credit company. Wow. It used to be we were going to, you know, they have all these ways now you can use like Klarna to buy this stuff. Yes. It's making accessible to people maybe don't have the financial means right on hand. But also like that is a slippery, slippery slope.

[Michelle Mazur]

We've seen a PDF where the person is coaching them on how to get the money. Like you could drive Uber, you could sell your jewelry, you could walk dogs. You can walk dogs to pay for this $40,000 investment.

[Maggie Patterson]

And when the plans get this deceptive and this transparently awful, it really makes me feel so hopeless in the same way that I do when I think about multi level marketing. Because in part these are so hard to nip and to get shut down. From your perspective, whose responsibility is it to hold accountable independent bad actors in the digital sales world? Is it like the bbb, the ftc? Is it the social media platforms themselves, the people who follow them?

[Reese Oliver]

We could debate this all day long, but I think it really comes down to a few different things. Ultimately she should be accountable here that creators who are doing this and literally making the choice for better or worse to scam these people. There is definitely some interesting conversation about, you know, who is actually responsible. We saw a lot of really positive movement before current president came in with the ftc. We saw some really good action at the state level with attorney generals cracking down on influencers, making like income claims. But honestly we're probably over the next little while not going to see any of that. So can you go to your Better Business Bureau? Yes, but where we're seeing kind of the. One of the best moves I've seen is stripe, especially with the marketing re master resell rights is they started cracking down saying this is an MLM like operation and we are not going to let you process payments through here. But do meta. Do TikTok have responsibility here? I report this stuff and it never goes worse.

[Maggie Patterson]

Well, because it's beneficial. Yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

So I mean, I mean I think there is some things. But ultimately this is why consumer awareness is so, so important. And Michelle and I probably are going to be doing this podcast and from the retirement home down the road.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, literally. Us too.

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah. We can't keep up.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. Like there's always something new. Right. So and there's always like a new spin on It. And this is why, like, if you start to learn the tactics, you start to understand how they're being applied, and then it's not okay if someone says, hey, why don't you take this money out of your 401k? Or you should take up dog walk walking. Or can you make a decision right now those are red flags. And that you need to heed those red flags, no matter how appealing it is and how vulnerable you're feeling in that moment.

[Amanda Montel]

Totally. Okay, now I think it's time for us to play our game.

[Maggie Patterson]

We are going to be playing. Would you rather we explained to you two culty premises, one of which will have to do with digital marketing scams, and you will pick which one you would rather participate in.

[Amanda Montel]

Would you rather buy an online course from an influencer you don't know or talk to an AI chatbot version of your favorite K pop idol for an afternoon?

[Michelle Mazur]

Definitely talk to the chatbot version.

[Reese Oliver]

I'm going KOT all the way. Yeah.

[Amanda Montel]

You're not afraid that you would develop a robot love affair?

[Reese Oliver]

You know, I just read an article that I sent to Michelle on CNN about this, and, you know, I think I'm okay in that department. Like, that seems like a lot of work, a lot of hours you have to put in.

[Maggie Patterson]

Oh, my gosh. And they forget. You have to, like, jog its memory. I mean, not much different than women.

[Reese Oliver]

I'd be like, we talked about this, right?

[Maggie Patterson]

Scenario number two. Would you rather change your entire social media brand to follow the advice of she who recruited you or get rid of all of your offspring's branded, not plain, clothing in order to send them to Waldorf?

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, I'm sending my kid to Waldorf school. It's fine. Whoa.

[Amanda Montel]

Okay. You should listen to our episode.

[Maggie Patterson]

You should.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, I know. I know enough. And I'm just like, eh, I don't want to change my social media.

[Amanda Montel]

Hilarious.

[Michelle Mazur]

So I don't have offspring. I have cats. Can I send cats?

[Maggie Patterson]

I think they can become clairvoyant. I see it. Sending the cats.

[Amanda Montel]

Cats in Waldorf schools do feel like they go together for some reason.

[Maggie Patterson]

Yeah. Definitely some wisdom.

[Amanda Montel]

Would you rather buy followers to kickstart your digital marketing career or invest in Dojlan Mars, AKA Elon's cryptocurrency?

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, I'm buying followers.

[Michelle Mazur]

Yeah, followers. Like, I can't.

[Reese Oliver]

Everything about that was wrong.

[Michelle Mazur]

Yeah. Elon Musk is a whole. I know you covered him, but he's.

[Amanda Montel]

A get the fucking.

[Maggie Patterson]

Get the fuck.

[Michelle Mazur]

Yeah, he's definitely a get the fuck Out. I'd much rather, like, ruin a social media presence and then deal with that.

[Amanda Montel]

Reflects well on your priorities.

[Maggie Patterson]

It does. Okay. Would you rather only be able to message or DM those whose comment specific keywords on your posts or not be able to speak to people whose astrological sign you're not compatible with?

[Michelle Mazur]

Oh, crap. Because I don't think my husband and I are astrologically compatible, so that would really, like, head me towards divorce.

[Reese Oliver]

I think I'm going astrological because I just, like, did a roundup. I'm like my husband, my kids, kid, my sister. We're all compatible. We're all air signs, so we're fine.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, amazing. Okay. Wow.

[Reese Oliver]

Sorry, Michelle. We're probably not compatible.

[Michelle Mazur]

Oh, I'm an earth sign, I think. Aaron.

[Reese Oliver]

I'm not sure.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle Mazur]

Well, that ends our podcast. Well, crap, Maggie, thanks.

[Maggie Patterson]

This is what colts do, people.

[Amanda Montel]

It is it truly Podcasters apart. Okay, last one. Would you rather. Rather have to use chat GPT to write all of your Instagram captions with the purpose of recruiting other people or hands free drive your cyber truck to work every day?

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, I'm writing my Instagram captions like, for. To recruit people. I am not getting in a cyber truck. Absolutely not. No way in hell.

[Michelle Mazur]

Those trucks are so ugly. Like, the first time I saw one, I almost rear ended the person in front of me because it was such a distraction.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, they're a blight on the earth.

[Michelle Mazur]

So, yeah, I'm using Chat GPT and recruiting people.

[Maggie Patterson]

The chat GPT is like a slight to your dignity, but I feel like the cyber truck is like a threat to your physical safety, which is maybe a little more important.

[Reese Oliver]

And I would just be really bad at recruiting people, so it. It'd be fine.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, yeah, no, it's actually safer for humanity. Maggie and Michelle, thank you so much for joining this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. If people want to keep up with you and the Lord's work that you're doing to shed light on this scammery, where can they do that?

[Michelle Mazur]

You can find our podcast at Duped Online. And I am not really a social media girly, but if you're going to connect with me anywhere, connect with me on LinkedIn. Yeah. Slide into my DMs and tell me what you took away from the podcast today. I'm Dr. Michelle Mazur, really easy to find. And Maggie, working. They find you.

[Reese Oliver]

I am our Instagram correspondent. So I'm on Instagram and threads, free business. And the podcast dupe is all the Places. You're listening to this podcast. So amazing.

[Amanda Montel]

Thank you so much.

[Reese Oliver]

Thank you, thank you.

[Amanda Montel]

Okay, Reese, out of these three cult categories, live your life, watch your back and get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of digital marketing scams falls into?

[Maggie Patterson]

I'm clicking. Not interested. I'm clicking. See fewer posts like this. I'm blocking reporting. I'm getting the fuck out. Get the fuck off my discover page.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah. Despite the fact that I do want to learn more about marketing, I don't want to learn it from these sepia toned individuals.

[Maggie Patterson]

Anyone who actually has real marketing knowledge and something to teach me for real would not need to sell it to me via Instagram.

[Reese Oliver]

No.

[Amanda Montel]

And I actually think like marketing these days is a trial and error thing. Like I just later this year or next year or at some point in the future, I want to do an episode on the cult of consulting because like I'm just so annoyed by these God complex, you don't know fuckos. Yeah, like it's also culty and it's also predatory, especially in the context of business. Business today. So yeah, I agree. It's obviously get the out. Well, that's our show.

[Maggie Patterson]

Thank you so much for listening.

[Amanda Montel]

Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty but not too cozy. Sounds like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad [e-mail] SoundsLikeACult.

[Reese Oliver]

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[Maggie Patterson]

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[Michelle Mazur]

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