The Cult of Enneagram

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sounds Like A Cult

Episode: The Cult of Enneagram
Release Date: June 23, 2026
Hosts: Reese Oliver & Iman Haririkia
Guest: Ashton Whitmoyer Ober, Enneagram expert & educator

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Overview

This episode of Sounds Like A Cult dives into the world of the Enneagram—its popularity, cult-like tendencies, and psychological impact. The hosts explore why so many people are drawn to the Enneagram personality typology, how it has become an identity-building tool, and where (or if) it falls along their "cult spectrum." The episode features listener stories, a deep-dive interview with Enneagram educator Ashton Whitmoyer Ober, and a playful critique of the Enneagram's spread through pop culture and self-help spaces.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Connections to the Enneagram

• Listener Jordan Moore describes becoming "obsessed" with the Enneagram after a therapist introduced her to it. She used it socially and even referred to "The Complete Enneagram" as her "bible." (01:46–02:27)
• Iman ties Enneagram’s rise to the popularity of digital media personality quizzes:

  “A big chunk of what I did…was edit articles that sounded a little bit like ‘who you should hook up with this Thanksgiving break based on your star sign’ or ‘why you should text your toxic ex based on your Myers Briggs.’” (03:26–05:05)

• Reese notes Enneagram’s slightly more “sophisticated” vibe compared to other buzzworthy quizzes and references celebrities (like Rhett of Rhett and Link) being open about typology obsessions. (05:05–05:59)

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2. What Is the Enneagram? (History & System)

• Iman breaks down the nine core types and how wings (“adjacent” types) nuance each profile:

  “Tests are highly contested in the Cult of Enneagram. So regardless of which test you took, both our tests might not mean anything—and we can choose to be whoever we want.” (07:52–09:06)

• Origins: Traced to 20th century spiritual teacher George Gurdjieff, with later systematization by Oscar Ichazo and Claudio Naranjo.
• The Enneagram’s scientific standing is questioned:

  “The symbol itself is often traced back to George Gurdjieff... Naranjo himself said that much of the system came from intuition and what he described as automatic writing rather than empirical research.” (09:45–10:59)

• The Enneagram is not recognized by mainstream psychology due to lack of reproducibility and empirical grounding.

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3. Why Is the Enneagram So Popular?

• Decision fatigue & modern uncertainty:

  “I think the more that we can eliminate choices and put ourselves on one streamlined path...it’s nice to be told what to do sometimes.” — Reese (10:59–11:42)

• Social media and spiritual outlets:

  “We want to affirm what we already know about ourselves to be True through astrology.” — Iman (12:43)

  • The Enneagram, like astrology, offers a tidy framework for self-understanding and a sense of belonging.
• Barnum Effect: The sense of uncanny accuracy stems from broad, general statements people find uniquely true for themselves (13:08–14:56).

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4. The Cultiness of Enneagram

• Community & belonging:

  “Immediate community belonging to an in group...some sort of explanation or understanding of why the world looks the way it looks and why we act the way we act.” — Iman (14:18)

• Deflection of accountability:

  “Well, it’s not my fault I behave this way. Like according to my Enneagram, my motivation was actually X, Y, Z.” — Iman (14:56)

• Labeling in relationships:

  “Instead of having real conversations, this turns into a labeling game. Like, ‘you’re such a two’ or ‘oh, there’s your eight showing,’ which really flattens relationships and takes complex human behavior and turns it into something really simplified and shallow.” — Reese (19:44–20:34)

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5. Real-World Impacts and Risks

• Misuse in the workplace:

  “Some companies have used it in hiring or team building contexts, even though experts ... caution against using non validated personality tests for employment decisions.” — Reese (17:47–18:37)

• Substitute for therapy:

  “People often use the Enneagram as a substitute for actual mental health treatment, reducing complex issues like trauma, anxiety or depression into personality types.” — Reese (18:37–19:20)

• Self-diagnosis pitfalls:

  “I’m not a medical or a mental health expert and I shouldn’t be trusted with diagnosing myself essentially.” — Reese (19:44)

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6. The Guest Interview: Ashton Whitmoyer Ober

(Timestamps: 25:09–44:28)

Who is Ashton?

Licensed psychologist turned Enneagram educator/speaker/author, drawn to the tool for its motivational insight and personal change potential. (25:21–26:08)

Why Enneagram?

• It’s about why you do things, not just what you do.

  “With the Enneagram, it’s about why we do things the way that we do ... once we understand why, we can change those behaviors we might not like versus other personality tests.” — Ashton (26:18–27:03)

Resurgence explained:

• Social media and pandemic-fueled self-reflection (28:00).
• More resources available now, though Enneagram’s content dates back “2 to 4,000 years,” with booms in the 1980s and now.

Cultiness Signals:

• Asking someone's "type" is the instant in-group shibboleth. (29:00–29:23)
• Some types (like 7s and 9s) are popularized/hierarchized through memes and social media, fostering subtle status games (30:17–30:33).
• Lingo is strong: “wings,” “healthy/unhealthy,” “stress/growth lines,” and “instinctual stacking.” (32:11–34:28)

  “When people say, ‘I’m a two wing three’…that is so Enneagram coded. If you don’t know anything about the Enneagram, you’re like, what are you talking about?” — Ashton (32:11)

Entry/Exit Costs & Monetization:

• Low barrier to access (read online, self-study). Costs arise with paid tests, coaching, and events—riskier if people get sucked in. (38:29–39:36)

Hierarchies & Conflicts:

• Internal splits over test accuracy and whether types are inborn or can change (41:20–42:08).

Dogma/Core Why:

• The drive is sharing and understanding oneself—“People love to talk about themselves ... It’s this dogma of wanting to learn about themselves, but then wanting everybody else to also learn about that.” — Ashton (43:21–44:28)

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7. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jordan Moore’s Enneagram “conversion”:

  “I would pull out my copy of ‘The Complete Enneagram’ ... and tell them that it was my bible.” (02:18)

• Nora from NY:

  “I think that the Enneagram is culty because it’s basically the MLM of pop psychology.” (24:11–25:09)

• Amanda Montell (creator, call-in):

  “Everyone I’ve ever met who’s gone on to become an Enneagram coach ... is some man with a totally cult leader degree disposition ... using Enneagram to avoid having to be a functional adult in the real world.” (37:16)

• Ashton on leader figures:

  “Riso and Hudson ... are the founding fathers of the modern day Enneagram ... Suzanne Stabile, we call her the Enneagram Godmother.” (30:31–31:44)

• Hosts on the spectrum:

  “So, Aman, at the end of the day ... where are you putting Miss Enneagram?” — Reese
  “This one feels pretty firmly in the camp of Live Your Life. ... As long as you don’t use your Enneagram type as an excuse to behave badly, isolate yourself, or exclude others, I say live your life, girl.” — Iman (49:15–49:55)

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8. The “He’s a 10, But…” Enneagram Game (46:24–48:44)

A humorous segment in which Ashton ranks hypothetical boyfriends based on Enneagram quirks, using the show’s playful tone to highlight how personality branding can influence perceptions.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Listener testimonial – Jordan Moore: 01:46
• Hosts define cult & spectrum: 03:03
• Enneagram type overview & wings: 07:52, 32:11
• Barnum effect & culty dynamics: 13:08–14:56
• Guest interview—Ashton Whitmoyer Ober: 25:09–44:28
• Cult categories & conclusions: 49:15–50:36

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Final Verdict: Is the Enneagram a Cult?

Hosts’ Cult Meter Ranking:

• Both Reese and Iman place the Enneagram in the “Live Your Life” (benign) cult category.

  “There haven’t been that many major controversies. The Cult of Enneagram doesn’t appear to be actively hurting anyone. So as long as you don’t use your Enneagram type as an excuse to behave badly, isolate yourself, or exclude others, I say live your life, girl.” — Iman (49:25–49:55)

They note that the Enneagram can become culty when taken too seriously or monetized aggressively, but its general impact—unlike harder-core cults—is relatively safe as long as it’s used in moderation and not as a shield for bad behavior or substitute for real mental health support.

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Tone & Style

Throughout the episode, the tone is witty, confessional, and conversational, blending pop culture references with critical, scholarly scrutiny. The hosts keep the discussion accessible for listeners new to the Enneagram, but provide enough depth for fans familiar with its jargon and frameworks.

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Useful For:

• Anyone curious about the Enneagram, pop psychology, or “cultish” group dynamics
• Fans of personality quizzes & introspective self-analysis
• People wondering about the risks (and rewards) of grouping their identity around personality type systems

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Memorable Quote to Sum It Up:

“We want to be unique, but not too unique. Unique, but still one of many.” — Reese (16:57)

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End of episode summary

Transcript

[Amanda Montell]

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[Jordan Moore]

Hi, my name is Jordan and I am in San Francisco, California. I became a member of the Cult of the Enneagram when a therapist introduced it to me in 2018. I immediately became obsessed and felt like I found the secret to understanding myself and everyone else around me. I started attending workshops and worked with an Enneagram coach for about a year. At the time, I would talk about the Enneagram with anyone who would listen. I would try to figure out their number as well, even though you're not

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

supposed to do that.

[Jordan Moore]

Also, when I had friends over, I would pull out my copy of the Complete Enneagram by Beatrice Chestnut and tell them that it was my bible.

[Reese Oliver]

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern Day cults we all follow. I'm Reese Oliver, sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar.

[Iman Haririkia]

And I'm Iman Hurikia, author of Female Fantasy the Most Famous Girl in the world and 100 other girls.

[Reese Oliver]

Every week on this show we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist all the way from Mom Talk to marching fans to try and answer the biggest question of them all.

[Iman Haririkia]

This group sounds like a cult. But is it really?

[Reese Oliver]

And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A lit your life, watch ya back or a get the fuck out? Because not every group that seems a little culty for comfort is mixing up poisonous off brand Kool it cultish influence these days exists on a spectrum, baby. It's all spectrums. From the slightly on beat to the seriously concerned.

[Iman Haririkia]

And the point of the show is to explore how fanaticism creeps into everyday life. So to examine how power and identity can get warped in the farest of corners of the Internet and to critique the culty places that you might not think to look, but maybe you should. Like a harmless personality quiz that you take with your friends. Something that helps you understand your relationships, your fears, your patterns, until suddenly you're organizing your entire identity around a number. Yes, today we are talking about the Cult of Enneagram. So I am pretty familiar with the Cult of Enneagram. Reese, I don't know if you and I have ever discussed this before, but Amanda and I have something in common and that's we are both escapees from the Cult of Women's lifestyle media. So I worked for a women's digital media group for many, many years, specifically in the sex and relationship space, which I've mentioned in the past. But a big chunk of what I did for about a year and a half when personality quizzes were all the rage a la buzzfeed quiz was edit articles that sounded a little bit like who you should hook up with this Thanksgiving break based on your star sign or why you should text your toxic ex based on your Myers Briggs. Or here's what your Enneagram number can tell you about your favorite sex position. So that's my background with the Cult of Enneagram. What about you?

[Reese Oliver]

That actually makes sense. So much sense because it's such. It is such like a little teen magazine thing. But Enneagram specifically feels a little more sophisticated to me. A little like a little more grown up than the other ones for whatever reason. Maybe not Myers Briggs. I feel like Myers Briggs and Enneagram are the two that feel they just have a slightly more clinical feel to them, which I think kind of gives them an air of credibility. I'm not sure if they fully deserve, but yeah, I don't have a ton of experience with Enneagram. I think I, like, heard the term tossed around loosely. But what really struck me as like, oh, this is a cult that we should talk about is I was listening to an episode of Rhett and Link's podcast and Rhett went on the record about how very into this cult he is. And he has brought it up many times on their podcast since then. And hearing him talk about how insightful it was for him, I. I was both like, wow, there are clearly people that are really into this. And selfishly. And as a three, I'm pretty sure Rhett is also a three. I was like, I want to know about myself. I want to take the test.

[Iman Haririkia]

Are we all threes in the chat right now?

[Reese Oliver]

All two of us?

[Iman Haririkia]

All two of us are threes, which is crazy because there were truly nine other options that we could have fallen under.

[Reese Oliver]

So many options. Who are the bitches with a microphone going to be, though? Come on. Like, we need to do a test of the other hosties.

[Iman Haririkia]

That's very true, and we're going to get into this a little bit later in our conversation. But the wing, which is like a supplemental number that you're given that is like adjacent to your number and can tell you more about your type, I do think, think that, like, when I read the full description of my type with the wing included, I found it to be incredibly accurate. And I will say every personality test I've ever taken from Myers Briggs to Enneagram to, if you count astrology, has told me like pretty much the exact same set of things about myself. So I'm just gonna put that out there.

[Reese Oliver]

I wanna ask you, does this remind you of any other cults or are we, like, expecting it to be culty? How are you feeling on the cult meter starting off?

[Iman Haririkia]

Well, it does remind me, as I mentioned, about the. The cult of Myers Briggs, but definitely also reminds me a little bit of the cult of romance novels because of the romance trope categorization, all of the different sub tropes. But can I just say, like, I think that's because microtropes tell us so much about why we're attracted to what we're attracted to and why we love who we love. And I think that Myers Briggs types teach us a lot about, like, why we do what we do and why we are who we are.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. As we're gonna get into with our guest, she mentioned that the Enneagram is very motivation oriented, and I feel like that's something that reflects itself quite easily in written media. So now, Amon, take us away into some history and some basic info about the Enneagram.

[Iman Haririkia]

So the Enneagram is a personality type system that sorts people into nine distinct types, each with its own core motivations, fears and behaviors. And these types are type 1, the reformer, type 2, the helper, type 3, the achiever, type 4, the individualist, type 5, the investigator, type 6, the loyalist, type 7, the enthusiast, type 8, the challenger, and type 9, the peacemaker. Oh, this is so interesting. I didn't realize that your type changed based on your wing. So as a enneagram3wing4, my type is the Professional, which is not one of these types. So it combines Type three's ambition and focus on success with Type four's desire for authenticity and individuality. Embarrassing. As we'll get into later on in the episode, Tests are highly contested within the Cult of Enneagram. So regardless of which test you took, both our tests might not mean anything and we can choose to be whoever we want. We could be the Challenger. We could be the investigator for all I know.

[Reese Oliver]

That takes the fun out of it. For me. That's not the point. Tell me.

[Iman Haririkia]

I don't want to decide who I am. I want some anonymous website on the Internet to tell me who I am.

[Reese Oliver]

No, the whole point of the test is so I know how to better act in the future.

[Iman Haririkia]

Well, Enneagram is widely used today for self discovery, relationships, and even workplace dynamics, despite the fact that it's not recognized as a scientifically validated personality assessment in mainstream psychology. Very culty. According to the American Psychological association, widely accepted personality frameworks rely on empirical testing and reproducibility standards that the Enneagram does not meet. For reasons that we literally just discussed, its origins are also not exactly academic. The symbol itself is often traced back to George Gurdjieff, a 20th century spiritual teacher, before being developed into a personality system in the 1960s by Oscar Ichazo and later expanded by Claudio Naranjo. Naranjo himself said that much of the system came from intuition and what he described as automatic writing rather than empirical research. We can make up whatever we want to make up at any time. Well, pseudoscience or not, Enneagram is extremely popular, with over 50 million uses of hashtag enneagram on TikTok and 77k grammars. In R enneagram. Enneagram has gained traction in two spaces, the workplace and one's spiritual practice. According to Peter Clark's Encyclopedia of New Religious Movements, both avenues of engagement highlight differing potential benefits of. Well, I don't know. What exactly does it highlight? Rhys?

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, so I know I mentioned that fleabag scene a lot on this show, but I think it's so applicable to cultiness. Like, I just want someone to tell me what to do. Man, it's rough out here. I think everybody has so much decision fatigue because we are beholden to so many systems that force our hand. A lot of our decisions have stakes behind them that they shouldn't have. Like where I buy my groceries shouldn't necessarily decide whether children across the world should eat tomorrow. But that happens. That's a reality we have to face. So I think the more that we can eliminate choices and put ourselves on one streamlined path that we kind of know is correct and we don't really have to do as much critical thinking. To be blunt, I think people like that, and I mean, I'm included in that. It's nice to be told what to do sometimes.

[Iman Haririkia]

Totally. I also think post pandemic and also because of the popularization of social media and technological spaces, we have so much more trouble communicating with one another. And so it doesn't surprise me that more than ever in the workplace, people are using personality tests to help them navigate conflict and talk to their co workers and manage people because ultimately we're lacking in that face to face contact.

[Reese Oliver]

I'm wondering if there's any kernel of truth to it being a byproduct of a further diversification of a lot of workplaces where like, a lot of social norms that before were kind of taken for granted are being reevaluated. And people, like you were saying, in addition to like post pandemic, are needing to kind of recalibrate how they behave in those settings and having something like enneagram that's kind of demographically neutral and so up to personal interpretation, then it's like, well, now you're only treating people in a way that they've explicitly told you to treat them, kind of. So it takes a lot of guesswork out.

[Iman Haririkia]

Yeah. I also think because of the even further rise of astrology in mainstream culture, I think that now people do have some baseline information about who they are and they're looking for any kind of supplemental information to emphasize and mirror why they are the way they are. They want to affirm what they already know about themselves, to be True through astrology.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. And they want information that feels credible. So to turn to something that called the Enneagram Institute with an acronym for the test. It's called the Ready like it. It looks like I was saying earlier, very clinical. I think in a maybe kind of cultish way. It does really present itself as an authority for people who are trying to figure out who they are. And with that we're going to get into some culty analysis. A lot of people have the experience of reading their type description and feeling like very completely seen, just like you Aman. And that makes sense because these descriptions are often kind of like astrology. Broad enough to apply to a wide range of which is a phenomenon that psychologists will sometimes refer to as the Barnum effect, where individuals believe vague general statements are uniquely accurate to them. The American Psychological association defines this as a really common cognitive bias that underpins things like astrology and personality tests. It also offers something people are actively looking for. A sense of identity, a sense of control and a sense of belonging. A lot of what we were just talking about. Much like other cult adjacent spaces that we've covered. Personality tests like the Enneagram give people language for their struggles like you were saying them on. And a community that reinforces it and embraces them for it.

[Iman Haririkia]

This is so common across so many cults. A immediate community belonging to an in group. Some sort of explanation or understanding of why the world looks the way it looks and why we act the way we act. Like I'm not surprised that this is a cult that many are susceptible to, including myself.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, there's just something about a fun little cult where it's like, here's how you can toy with your presentation to the world. Shoulder here. So you can project yourself onto a predetermined category of. Of some kind. Because then it's like I'm unique, but I'm also one of many. So I'm not alone.

[Iman Haririkia]

Yeah. I wonder if it also helps us sort of mitigate responsibility. We're like, well, it's not my fault I behave this way. Like according to my Enneagram, my motivation was actually X, Y, Z.

[Reese Oliver]

That's so interesting and I think probably really true. And I'm wondering like if there are any devious people in the Enneagram space who have taken advantage of that. I don't even know how someone would do like all the fours should sell me money. I don't know.

[Iman Haririkia]

Or like I'm not being overly friendly with you. I am a seven.

[Reese Oliver]

I wasn't flirting with her. Babe, I'm just an eight, I swear.

[Iman Haririkia]

Exactly. I just love to have fun.

[Reese Oliver]

So when people say like, sorry, I'm just really blunt, it's like, now there's like a little title for that kind of thing.

[Iman Haririkia]

Reese, do you remember Group 7 on TikTok?

[Reese Oliver]

And let me know, okay, this is

[Iman Haririkia]

maybe exposing how chronically online I am, but maybe let's say like six months ago, a girl on TikTok made a video that just said, if you're seeing this on your feed, you're in Group 7, basically. And there was no explanation for what Group 7 was, the types of people that fell under the category nothing. It was just a way to incite engagement. However, anyone who received that video on their feed immediately enthusiastically embraced being Group 7 and started making sort of copycat videos for their own followers and their own feeds. So ultimately, I think this just exposes that, like, at the end of the day, people are dying to belong to something greater than themselves. They're dying for community, for acceptance, for a sense of, of belonging. So regardless of Whether you're in Group 7 or Type 7, it has less to do with the specifics of what it means to be in Group 7 or be a Type 7, and more to do with our yearning for categorization says about how like, disconnected and even lonely we are.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, for sure. And I think it becomes kind of like a feedback loop of identity formation where, like, you find people that identify with, whether it be the things you like or the way you behave or what shows up on your feed, and that becomes the thing that bonds you with people. And then because you're bonded with those people, you're exposed to a bunch of other things that you are more likely to like and enjoy because you have a similar taste profile or you behave, you know, like whatever it is. So I think that it's for sure a recipe for cultishness in that way, but not always necessarily for the worst. Like you were saying, just finding yourself within a group. We want to be unique, but not too unique. Unique, but still, but still one of many.

[Iman Haririkia]

And then the dark underside of that is that it creates, like, exclusionary practices. Like everyone who didn't get the Group 7 video on their feed and then felt totally left out and like a giant loser.

[Reese Oliver]

So we're gonna get into some actual horror stories, some consequences, because it's not all sunshine and rainbows when you're fully buying into this ideology that is at the end of the day, self determined and not being checked by any, like, empirical source. So the consequences are usually subtle with Enneagram than with something like, I don't know, Maha, but they are still very real. One of the biggest concerns is how often the Enneagram gets used in spaces where it probably doesn't belong. Some companies have used it in hiring or team building contexts, even though experts in industrial organizational psychology caution against using non validated personality tests for employment decisions. It feels very nonprofit to me. Very like, we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings and we want to create a good work environment without imposing any rigid structures. So kind of gonna like make you guys figure it out yourselves and blame it on your personalities.

[Jordan Moore]

Wow.

[Reese Oliver]

There's also the issue of therapy. People often use the Enneagram as a substitute for actual mental health treatment, reducing complex issues like trauma, anxiety or depression into personality types. This is actually something interesting that the guest said. Some people are in the camp that Enneagram is very nature. Some people are in the camp that Enneagram is very nurture. How trauma interacts with that is something that I would be intrigued to learn more about. But the APA makes it very clear that like, because of things like that, evidence based therapy requires clinically tested methods, not just like personality frameworks that are built on some randos. Automatic writing for 20 minutes, like your creative writing class warm up should not be determining how people behave in the workplace or what kind of therapy or therapeutic treatments people are trying to give themselves.

[Iman Haririkia]

Now I'm also thinking of more questions because if that's true, does that mean that you can change your type of.

[Reese Oliver]

That's what she was saying. Some people say yes and some people say no.

[Iman Haririkia]

But also it's like, if you are a certain type and then you experience a traumatic inciting incident, does your type organically evolve or do you have to compare everything that happens to you against your original type?

[Reese Oliver]

And then I think it also comes into the like, when you are a traumatized person or. I mean, I guess this goes for any. Like, I don't think anyone is like fully 2020 in terms of like mental health, but I'm wondering just how valid our own interpretations of ourselves are. I think there's probably a good reason that you want authority of some kind. Like, I think, yeah, I'm not like a medical or a mental health expert and I shouldn't be trusted with diagnosing myself essentially. But yeah, there's also the interpersonal fallout aspect of the Enneagram. So instead of having like real conversations, this turns into a labeling game. Like, you know, you're. You're such a two or oh, there's your eight showing which like really flattens relationships and takes complex human behavior and turns it into something really simplified and shallow. It can also become a way of like avoiding accountability or genuine understanding. Like Aman was saying, I didn't do my homework because I'm a three and I I'll achieve regardless.

[Iman Haririkia]

Yeah, that's so interesting. Like I do think though that that is not something that's specific to Enneagram. I think people do this all the time with other personality quizzes and or astrology.

[Reese Oliver]

And honestly, I think I would rather have people saying like oh I'm such a five than people saying like oh I'm so OCD or something like that. Maybe this kind of thing is what statements like that are for instead of more serious diagnoses or other things that we have no business categorizing ourselves. At least this is like no, you're supposed to be the authority so no one can really hold you to anything if you're spewing out of your ass.

[Iman Haririkia]

Yeah, absolutely. Like this is a safer way for us to sort of like hide behind a more general descriptor of who we are. Well, to help us get the 411 on all things Enneagram, Today we will be speaking with Enneagram from Ashton, who is a speaker, workplace consultant and Enneagram expert who provides resources for those interested in Enneagram.

[Amanda Montell]

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[Jordan Moore]

this is Nora. I'm from New York and I think that the Enneagram is culty because it's basically the MLM of pop psychology. And particularly with Enneagram, I kind of see it as sort of a stepping stone. And a lot of people who get into Enneagram, the pipeline to life coaching is kind of inevitable. You're kind of lured in with this self help sphere and you dig deeper and deeper and you think, oh, this is like a real science. This makes a lot of sense, but there's just not a lot of room for nuance. They're kind of boiling everyone down to nine types. In the case of Enneagram, there's no cognitive functions that explain away all of the behavior that doesn't make sense for the core behaviors of the type, things like that. So I think Enneagram is culty for those reasons.

[Reese Oliver]

Ashton, welcome to the show.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Reese Oliver]

We're excited to have you. Could you Introduce yourself to the culties and share a little bit about your relationship to the cult of Enneagram.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

So it's funny because I feel like, and I'll probably say this a couple times, but I feel like so much of my work that I do is telling people that it's not a cult. Here I am on here. But my name is Ashton Whitmoyer Ober. I'm an Enneagram educator, speaker, author. And I became obsessed with the Enneagram, like so many people, back in 2018 when I was in my master's program for psychology. So I have my bachelor's and master's master's degree in psychology. I'm a psychologist by trade. Discovered the Enneagram and just became totally obsessed with the way that you can use it as a tool to better understand yourself and others. And so that is what started my Enneagram journey and what led me to make a full blown career out of it.

[Iman Haririkia]

And why do you think certain people prefer Enneagram over other personality tests like, say, Myers Briggs? And why has there been such a resurgence lately?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Yeah, great question. So people gravitate more towards the Enneagram over other personality typing systems because the Enneagram is not about your behavior. So in tests like Myers Briggs or strength finders or disc assessment, we're often trying to figure out like, who we are. Maybe we're extroverted or we're introverted, or we avoid conflict, or we face it head on. But with the Enneagram, it's about why we do things the way that we do. So it's instead about our motivation. And so it's the motivation behind why we avoid conflict or why we're more introverted. And so I think people just like that a little bit better because we're able to. Once we understand why we do things the way that we do them, then we can change those behaviors that we might not like versus other personality typing systems. It's just, you take that information and you kind of just go along, go away. Right? And we just like, oh, okay, this is who I am now. That's that. But with the Enneagram, we can actually use it as a tool for change. I think that there's been a resurgence for a couple different reasons. When I first started doing this work, I was just explaining this to somebody the other day. There were hardly any books that were out there on the Enneagram. There was like one book that people would read and follow, et cetera, but there weren't a lot of books. And so I think with it becoming more of an obsession lately, more people are writing books about it, but also we have access to information today, more so than we would in years past. So the Enneagram is actually what of the oldest typing Systems. It's between 2 to 4,000 years old, but it was created over in the Middle east, and it didn't really come to this part of the world until the 50s. And then it had a resurgence in the 80s because books were starting to be written. And then it kind of died down a little bit more. And then with social media and the way that we kind of consume our content and information just started to have people become more obsessed with it. I think also the pandemic when we were all just kind of sitting around and scrolling and not really doing much, it just became more prominent on people's feeds.

[Reese Oliver]

That's really insightful what you said about people being more drawn to the motivational aspect of Enneagram as opposed to something more diagnostic. Because I do think that things like, I don't know, for example, astrology can get very general because people do similar behaviors for very different reasons. So I think that getting a little bit more specific sounds really helpful. My next question for you is, are there any immediate tells that would signify a new person you're meeting as part of the Enneagram in group? Like, how would you be able to tell that someone is, like, a fan of the Enneagram?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Well, the easiest way is if someone were to be like, do you know your Enneagram type? I feel like that's always. What I hear is people are always like, do you know your Enneagram type? Or, what is your Enneagram type? Or, what type are you? And so it's really just that, like, intro question. And then if people say, like, I have no idea what you're talking about, then they can open it up with, ooh, let me tell you about, like, this really amazing thing that I know, right?

[Iman Haririkia]

Okay. Do you think there's a power hierarchy within the Cult of Enneagram? Like, do some types get all the glory? Are they ranked or otherwise compared against each other?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

I would say that some types probably feel like they are ranked and compared or, like, pitted against each other in some way. A lot of people will often say, like, oh, I wish I was a type 9, or I wish I was a type 7. They're so fun. And so I think the nature of content creators creating really fun and, like, exciting graphics about the Enneagram, even if they're just, like, not very Serious and just funny. It kind of naturally creates those hierarchies. And then you have your enneagram 4, who in general tends to feel like something is missing in them and that other people have what they don't have. And so they in general just feel like they're kind of the ones that are left out or not. As talked about as much.

[Iman Haririkia]

I have a wing for. So that's interesting to know some cult

[Reese Oliver]

lingo we'll have you define in a second. Alrighty. Well, every cult needs a leader. Who would you say is at the forefront of Enneagram and who's putting in the good work to spread the message.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

So I think there's probably a lot of people who might be aware, some people might be unaware that they are like the leaders. Right. So Richard Rohr was one of the people who wrote like the first books in English as well as Riso and Hudson have created an Enneagram test called the Ready the R H E T I. And so it's the Riso Hudson in Enneagram typing instrument. So I always consider them the founding fathers of the modern day Enneagram. But of course, then we have Suzanne Stabile, who we actually call her like the Enneagram Godmother because she is just so knowledgeable. I don't know if she'll ever listen to this, but she's like, I don't want to call her old, but she's older than a lot of us. And so because of that, she has a lot of wisdom when it comes to the Enneagram as well as Ian Morgan Crone wrote the book the Road Back to youo and that was the book I was talking about earlier. That is also part of the lingo. It's like the book that people are reading back in like 2018, 2019 to learn about the Enneagram. So I feel like those are probably the ones that are most prominent with shaping this.

[Iman Haririkia]

Well, speaking of both the lingo in that book and me interjecting to say that I am a wing for me wanting to know the motivation behind everything, that's that I do. I love to learn about myself. Cults love lingo. How does the Enneagram test then cultivate a lexicon? And do you feel like followers such as myself just now speak in tongues, Teach us a little bit about the terminology involved?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Yeah. So I mean, I would say the number one thing is the wings. Like you kind of walked right into that by sharing that. Because when people say like I'm a two wing three or I'm a three wing four. I'm a seven wing eight. Like, that is so Enneagram coded. Right? Like, if you don't know anything about the Enneagram, you're like, what are you talking about? I actually had somebody say to me before that when I was talking about wings, they assumed that I meant, like, chicken wing instead of, like, the Enneagram lingo. So that is definitely something that people say.

[Reese Oliver]

What does that mean for our followers who don't know?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

So the wings are the number on either side of your main type. So if you are a three, then your wing could be a four or a two. So when people say, like, I'm a two wing three, it just means that they're a two and their wing is a three. So they're a two. That can look like a three.

[Reese Oliver]

Kind of like a rising sign situation.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Yes.

[Iman Haririkia]

Supplemental sign to, like, offer, like, further context to your type.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Yeah. Are you a three?

[Iman Haririkia]

Yes.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Okay, I'm making assumptions, but it's because I wouldn't assume that you would be a five. So a three with a four wing is going to look different than a three with a two wing. And so that's what differentiates people.

[Reese Oliver]

You know what's crazy? I think I might be a three with the two wing. I'm a three. I don't remember what my wing is that could track.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

So definitely the wings. The wing is a lot of the lingo as well as, like, people will say, stress and growth. You're in your stress line, and you're in your growth line. People will also say, like, healthy or unhealthy. Like, are you a healthy version of your type? Are you an unhealthy version? And I always think, because I'm in this lingo, like, often sometimes I forget that it sounds weird, but when I say, like, are you a healthy version of your type? People sometimes will look at me like, what are you talking about? Because, like, healthy is just when you think about it, it's weird or not a common word I should say, that we use in everyday language. So that is common. And there are subtypes, like instinctual subtypes, or what way do you stack? When we think about, like, subtypes, types. So things like that. That if you aren't familiar with the Enneagram, you would be very confused about why we're speaking in that way.

[Reese Oliver]

Okay, I'm gonna guess. Is that. Is that just in reference to, like, the progression of what percentage of each type you are? I guess, like, what does that mean? How do you stack?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

So it's with your instinctual subtypes, which. Your instinctual subtypes, if you're new to the Enneagram, we all have a natural instinct. And then when we combine that with our type, it produces another type of. It's very confusing. So, for example, I'm going to use you Iman. And I guess you guys are both threes, so I'll use the threes. So the three is like their biggest motivation, their biggest desire is to succeed, but then to be seen as like, respected or valued because of that. And then their biggest fear tends to be failure or being like, disrespected or not valued, not seen as like, capable. And so when you mix that with the three instincts which you have your self preservation and instinct. So like, your natural desire to like, protect yourself, you have social. So like, for that need for belonging or to like, be part of something. And then you have what we call, like sexual or one to one, which is the need for intimacy or connection. So we all have an instinct. And when we're referring to stacking, it's the way that our instincts stack. So like, what I would say is I'm a social self pres. To wing three, because social is first for me and then self pres. I know it sounds crazy. I know. Wow.

[Reese Oliver]

And are these. Is. Is your stack something that like, you determine and intuit, or is that something that an Enneagram expert can like, read

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

for you or either. Or like, we're big believers that in the Enneagram community that, like, it's ultimately up to you to determine what your motivation is. It's similar to why, like me watching people, I can't just assume what their type is because I don't know their motivations behind why they're doing those behaviors. Right. And that's why we aren't that big of fans of Tess, because they're a great place to start. But we don't really think that, like, a test can determine who you are. Like, it's really up to you to trust yourself and to determine why you do things the way that you do. Which, like, as humans, we don't really like that. Like, we want people to tell us.

[Iman Haririkia]

And so what does the word healthy then mean in the context of Enneagram?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Like, are you the best version of yourself? Are you kind of living out those great qualities of your type versus are you unhealthy? And so are you more on those not so great qualities? Qualities?

[Reese Oliver]

Well, the healthy, unhealthy dichotomy seems like a culty Red flag to me. But I think it's balanced out by the lack of standardization. I think that the ability to kind of read oneself, I think that that's a green flag.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Yay. I'm here for a green flag.

[Amanda Montell]

Hi culties, this is Amanda calling in from Los Angeles. And. And I think the cultiest thing about Enneagram is how I can't help but notice that everyone I've ever met who's gone on to become an Enneagram coach, maybe through some kind of pseudo certification or like offshoot coaching program, who the heck knows, is some man with a totally cult leader degree disposition. They're always these kind of like wild eyed kind of charismatic. Maybe they wish they were charismatic types. And they totally have a cult leader complex and are using Enneagram to avoid having to be a functional adult in the real world.

[Reese Oliver]

That's what I think is cultiest. So high entry and exit costs are another hallmark of any cult. Both getting and keeping all of your followers is very important. What would you say are the entry or exit costs? Costs to the Enneagram lifestyle, if there are any. And follow up. Is there more than one level of investment available within Enneagram either financially or otherwise?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

So not typically, because again, you are really just supposed to figure out your type yourself, you know, and so that unless you are going to buy a book, you could have like your cost of your book. But the Internet's free for the most part. And so doing your own research on what the types could be or scrolling social media like that could all be free to whoever wants to spend that time figuring it out and like sitting with themselves and really seeing what resonates with them. The costs come into play when you have people who are charging for a test. And again, I don't always believe that tests are that accurate. And so that's when people can kind of get sucked in, right? And then they pay for like results. They pay for the test and they pay for results. Then they like want to go deeper into that. And so I very clearly see how that can happen. But as far as doing it the right way, it's very low risk to really figure out what you're doing type is. But of course then we have people who are coaching and speaking and courses and programs and all of those things that could keep people in and wanting to learn more.

[Reese Oliver]

Have you ever seen someone like drastically change their life because they've learned something about them via Enneagram? Like I'm a four, so we can't hang out anymore. Like anything like that ever.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

I feel like it's drastically changed my life because I like made. Made it my entire personality apparently. I feel like now that I'm sitting here, I'm like, am I in a cult? Because I've made it my entire personality and it's my job. Like, it's my business. You know, where I wasn't doing that before. But as far as people, like, I've seen people who have really struggled with setting boundaries before are able to like adhere to going no contact with like a toxic family member. So I'll just use an example. Somebody who was an Enneagram too and had. Has this need. Their desire is to be loved and wanted, realize that and then be like, they're not giving me what I need and I need to find that elsewhere and then have that ability to set those boundaries. Also, I work with a lot of people in the workplace, so people who really struggled to work through like conflict situations or tension, being able to understand like why it is that they struggle with conflict and being able to overcome that. So I feel like those are pretty big deals when it comes to healing and growth and being able to use it like alongside of other. And I think that's the biggest thing. Like it's not the end all be all. Like using it alongside other areas or things that you're using in personal growth.

[Iman Haririkia]

Well, speaking of conflicts, what are some of the cultiest or crazy conflicts or clashes that you've witnessed within the Enneagram community itself? Like, have you seen someone go so hard for one thing or the other, either for better or for worse?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Yeah, I would say that the biggest thing is when, you know, a lot of us are trying to tell people that tests aren't that accurate. And then you have this other group of people who are like creating and monetizing off of tests. Right? Like, that's a big clash for us also, just in the way that like we communicate about the Enneagram. Like we were trained to believe that your Enneagram is more of the nature versus nurture. Like you were born with your type, but then you sometimes have like somebody come in and be. Be like, no, your type can change. And we're like, stop teaching people that because that's not true. So there's some changes or differences, I should say, in the way that people teach or educate others about the Enneagram that can make it difficult for people who are trying to, you know, determine what's true and what's not true.

[Jordan Moore]

Helpful.

[Reese Oliver]

Is there like a worst case scenario here for someone who follows Enneagram really closely, like maybe a horror story of someone who maybe went a little too far in the name of Enneagram.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

I would say just like anything, you know, anytime you are having a very black and white thinking, right? Like, if the Enneagram is my sole way that I'm going to change my life or, like, change these behaviors I don't like, and they're going all in in that way, I think that could probably be harmful to, like, their own personal growth story, because they're just believing everything that it says all the time, right? There are things that go into our types, like life experience, our family relationships, you know, just who we are as people. And so if you're only ever, like, reading something and taking it fully to heart, or this is the way that it has to be, or this is just who I am and that's just the way that it is, then that

[Iman Haririkia]

can be harmful if there is one. What do you think the central dogma mission or guiding principle of Enneagram followers is? Is there, like, one core truth that unites all cult members?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

I would say that the biggest truth for people who are following the Enneagram or wanting to learn about the Enneagram is that they're, like, learning about themselves, right? That they're understanding these things that they do, and that they likely are feeling less alone because of that. Like, a lot of times people will say, I thought I was the only one that thought that, or I thought I was alone in my thinking. And so I think that most people who are following the Enneagram would say that. That they're doing so because now they know they're not alone. I also think that people just like. Like the graphics, right? And people always ask me, like, about how I got followers on Instagram, and I'm like, people love to talk about themselves. And so I think that is probably part of it. They love to talk about themselves. They love to share things about themselves. And so when, you know, they see something about an enneagram 3, they're like, oh, that's me. I'm going to share it to my story so that everybody can know that that's me. And so I think that it's this, like, dogma of, like, wanting to learn about themselves, but then wanting everybody else to also learn about that.

[Iman Haririkia]

To be tagged is to be understood.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

So poetic, that enneagram4 in there.

[Iman Haririkia]

Okay, thank you so much. You literally just proved that to be true. You just saw me, understood me, and proverbially tagged me, which I love.

[Amanda Montell]

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[Reese Oliver]

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[Reese Oliver]

See fox.com for complete terms and conditions.

[Iman Haririkia]

So now we're going to play a little bit of a game. We're going to play he's a 10 butt. And here's how how it works. We're going to describe an otherwise perfect 10 person and then add a surprising flaw quirk. And then you will have to say what that person's new number is on a scale of 1 to 10, given the new quirk or flaw.

[Reese Oliver]

He's a 10, but he's an enneagram one. Aka the Reformer slash perfectionist.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

This is so much pressure. A six, but at least my house would be clean, I guess.

[Iman Haririkia]

Interesting. We're gonna be learning a lot about how you rank the.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

That's why I said it's a lot of pressure. And everyone's listening.

[Iman Haririkia]

He's a 5, but he knows his enneagram type.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Oh yeah, he's a 10. We're all about that self awareness.

[Reese Oliver]

He's a 9, but he hates Enneagram and loves astrology.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

I mean, loses points for hating Enneagram, but like gaining points because he loves something you know. Know it's difficult. I'm gonna go right in the middle with a five. Right in the middle.

[Iman Haririkia]

What a positive way of looking at that. I love that.

[Amanda Montell]

Right?

[Iman Haririkia]

He's a 10, but he spent thousands of dollars on Enneagram related paraphernalia and tests.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

That's insane. Like he's a two. He's not doing a great job with his money.

[Reese Oliver]

He's a two, but he plans your first date based on your Enneagram type.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

And he's a 10. Like he's seeing who I am. He's understanding what I will like because of my here for that.

[Iman Haririkia]

Firstly, he's a seven, but he only dates people with his mom's Enneagram type.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

That's weird. Like, not that he's dating somebody that is his mom's Enneagram type, but the fact that he's doing that on purpose is weird. So we're gonna go with one.

[Iman Haririkia]

The lowest of the low.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

Okay. He's a nine, but he has a chest piece that is Enneagram type.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

I don't even have anything Enneagram tattooed on me because I just think that it's weird. No offense to anybody out there who has done it, but. But is it like a symbol or like a reflection of his type? Or does it say like enneagram6?

[Reese Oliver]

I think it. Don't they all have like little titles like the Blank? I think it probably says whatever that is.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

I'm gonna go three.

[Reese Oliver]

Okay.

[Iman Haririkia]

Ashton, thank you so much for joining us today. If listeners want to follow you or your cult, where can they do that?

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

I'm happy to share my cult with you. Please come follow along, become a member. You can find me at as enneagram ashton on Instagram. Also enneagram ashton.com and again, you have me believing that I do have it in my name. So it's. Maybe it's concerning.

[Iman Haririkia]

Okay, thanks so much.

[Reese Oliver]

So, Aman, at the end of the day, out of our three cult categories that live your life, I'll watch your back and get the flock out. Where are you putting miss Uneven?

[Iman Haririkia]

This one feels pretty firmly in the camp of Live youe Life. To me feels like a relatively safe cult. If you're dying to join one, to be a part of there haven't been that many major controversies. The Cult of Enneagram doesn't appear to be actively hurting anyone. So as long as you don't use your Enneagram type as an excuse to behave badly, isolate yourself, or exclude others, I say live your life, girl.

[Reese Oliver]

Yes, I feel similarly. I also think that any ground is a live your life. I mean, I don't know, it's being taught in like corporate workshops. Not to say that everything that's taught in corporate settings is good, because I definitely don't believe that. But I think the fact that makes it culty in a less directly harmful way is that it is such a personal relationship and like an adjudication that one makes for oneself and that there's not really a living, centralized leading figure as far as I'm concerned, that seems to be dictating people behave in like one way or another more just like every man's journey for themselves.

[Iman Haririkia]

Yeah, and there's literally no exit costs. You can even change your Enneagram type if it no longer agrees with you. Okay, well, that's our show.

[Reese Oliver]

Thank you so much for listening.

[Iman Haririkia]

Stick around for a new cult next week and in the meantime stay culty but not too culty.

[Amanda Montell]

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore

[Iman Haririkia]

of the Pod Tavern.

[Amanda Montell]

This episode was hosted by Reese Oliver and Iman Harirukia. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show and ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult.

[Iman Haririkia]

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[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

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plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail]

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Athletic Brewing Company Crafts Award winning non alcoholic beers for those who want to be part of every round. With over 185 flavor awards, there are

[Reese Oliver]

exceptional NA beers that fit fit your

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

lifestyle and any social occasion. Summer's full of good times and Athletic fits right in. Go to athleticbrewing.com to have brews delivered

[Reese Oliver]

to your door or find them at a bar, restaurant or store near you near Beer Athletic Brewing Co.

[Ashton Whitmoyer Ober]

Fit for all times.