Caitlin Durante (4:09)

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Amanda Montel (4:37)

On WhatsApp.

Caitlin Durante (4:38)

No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password you to WhatsApp, it's all just this.

Amanda Montel (4:49)

So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those.

Caitlin Durante (4:53)

Late night voice messages that could basically.

Amanda Montel (4:55)

Become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone, I am honored to be joined by Caitlin Durante, one of the two iconic voices behind the Bechdelcast podcast. Caitlin, thank you so much for joining. Sounds like a cult.

Caitlin Durante (5:18)

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so delighted to be here.

Amanda Montel (5:22)

So it's just going to be me and Caitlyn today. For those who might be wondering what the rhyme or reason may be for when I solo host an episode versus when my glorious co host Reese and Chelsea are here. It literally just has to do with scheduling. Chelsea and Reese both work slash go to school full time. I got another full time gig too. That's just the context for like the 12 people who care anywh who Speaking of flying solo, we've discussed a lot of cults on the show of individual male celebrities, right? So from Jared Leto to Neil Gaiman. But my first impression of the Cult of Leo is less that he is himself a cult leader and more that he is just one of these sort of cult followed figures. The sort of, I don't know, Timmy Chalamet of his day. So it'll be really interesting to discuss where the boundary separating cult leader and cult followed figure might be. And I'm super fascinated to be here with you Caitlyn, to interview someone who has thought oh so very much about this man. All in an effort to figure out where he lands along our culty spectrum.

Caitlin Durante (6:23)

Happy to be here.

Amanda Montel (6:25)

So Caitlin, I had the joy and the pleasure of appearing on your delightful podcast the Bechtel Cast to talk about the film Poor things. Just to intro the culties to you and your work, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your connection connection to titanic slash Leonardo DiCaprio?

Caitlin Durante (6:43)

Happy to. So my podcast is called the Bechdelcast. It is named after the Bechdel Test, which I imagine most people are familiar with by now, but if you're not, it's a media metric. The general version is a movie or piece of media will pass the Bechdel test if two women speak to each other about something other than a man. So my co host Jamie Loftus and I took this very basic jumping off point and used it as a springboard to talk about movies through an intersectional feminist lens. So we do spend a minute or two of every episode discussing whether or not the movie we are examining passes the Bechdel test. But the rest of the other two hours that we're talking is just examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens and then connecting that back to Leonardo DiCaprio to Titanic and other of his movies. Because I guess other ones exist besides Titanic. So Jamie and I find found out early on into the podcast that we were both obsessed with the movie Titanic. So we have done upwards of eight or nine episodes on Titanic. We haven't covered any other movie more than once. Most of them are behind our Patreon. But we can't stop talking about Titanic. We can't stop talking about Leonardo DiCaprio. We've also covered Wolf of Wall street pretty recently. We've done Inception on the show Romeo plus Juliet.

Amanda Montel (8:10)

You know, I'm not in the cult of Titanic the same way that you are, but my best friend is. So for her 30th birthday, alongside another one of her friends, I planned this quite over the top titanic themed surprise 30th birthday party. I purchased a Leonardo DiCaprio life size cutout for $100. Why are they so expensive?

Caitlin Durante (8:35)

I don't know. That's wild. But good on you.

Amanda Montel (8:38)

Thank you. Yeah. The main activity of the birthday was I got a very slinky piece of rosy lingerie and she laid about a sofa and all of the guests had to paint her like one of Jack's French girls. And she chose a winner who won a Titanic themed prize. It was a little seashell lamp. It was very cute. I just needed to express that, like, I have dipped a toe into the world.

Caitlin Durante (9:05)

I love that for you. You're describing my dream party. I kind of am upset that I was not invited to this. Even though I don't know your friend, it reminds me of remember when Adele threw herself a birthday party and it was Titanic themed and she's like very rich, so she was able to afford very decadent costumes. And just what I'm saying is I want a Titanic themed party and I haven't had one. And it's a crime.

Amanda Montel (9:31)

There's just so much fodder. It's such a rich real life event and also such a robust film and really obviously set the stage for Leonardo DiCaprio to become not just a famous actor but a cult followed figure. We will see if this episode of Sounds like a Cult passes the fucking Bechdel test. A lot of our episodes don't because famously cult leaders are men tend to be men. Not always Gwyneth Paltrow. We see you, Teal Swan. We see you. Anywho, Caitlyn, when we were coordinating this episode, it was because we had gotten acquainted. We were trying to think of a film related cult to cover on the show that you felt passionate about. The two options that you and Jamie put forth were titanic slash Leonardo DiCaprio and Shrek. I gravitated towards Shrek because that's demented and strange and truly fringe. And the cult of Shrek that you had only just started breaking down for me, I was like, how is Shrek a cult? You started breaking down the rituals and the culture. And I was like, that's fucking bonkers I really want to do that, but I also don't want to sabotage my listenership. Let's have the listeners vote on what they would rather hear about. And unfortunately, slash. Fortunately, the cult of Leonardo DiCaprio won. Hopefully one day we'll get to do the Cult of Shrek just for me. Just for us. I understand, though, why people wanted us to cover Leonardo DiCaprio because he represents such a wide spectrum of things that the word culture can mean. Like, he is a cult followed figure, but he also has some more serious culty controversies under his belt. When I say the cult of Leonardo DiCaprio to you, Caitlyn, what instantly comes to mind?

Caitlin Durante (11:22)

I would say the two things that people are kind of obsessed with regarding him are his dating history and his failure to get an Oscar for so long and being constantly snubbed and then finally getting one and then being snubbed again several times. And people's obsession with whether or not he has as many Oscars as they think he deserves.

Amanda Montel (11:44)

Okay, okay. And both have to do with fanaticism because he is at once this former heartthrob who has sort of like fallen from grace, but also he's an underdog because he hasn't been awarded the accolades that his fans think he deserves. And that sort of like hush pull of being like a creep, but an underdog, a heartthrob, but a creep that is such a recipe for cult like fascination Nation. I wanted to set up just some fast facts about Leonardo DiCaprio. So Leonardo DiCaprio, full name Leonardo. Do you know his middle name?

Caitlin Durante (12:25)

Yes, I do. Wilhelm.

Amanda Montel (12:27)

We've got Leonardo DiCaprio and then Wilhelm. Like where, where did that. It's just, I don't.

Caitlin Durante (12:34)

Because his mother has German heritage, I.

Amanda Montel (12:37)

Believe that comes through. That comes through in Leo's visage. Well, actually, I'm just gonna turn these fast biofacts into a quiz. Do you know his birth date?

Caitlin Durante (12:47)

Oh, my gosh. I should know this because we do kind of observe it on the Bechtel cast sometimes. Like a holiday we'll like, post about. Well, not to be getting off topic so soon, but something that I feel like it's left out of the idea of Leonardo as a cult figure or just, you know, the following of Leonardo DiCaprio is how often he is in his movies, fully clothed and underwater, swimming around. He falls in the water. It happens like in nine of his movies. And it's fascinating. So we made a post about it. And then every so often, usually on his birthday, we'll be like happy birthday to the actor who apparently has it in his contract that he be underwater.

Amanda Montel (13:31)

Fully clothed, maybe subconsciously, or if I were taking a conspiratorial stance, consciously. These writers and directors are like, the fans expect a motif where a Leonardo DiCaprio is being heroic, but being underwater, you're like, a little vulnerable. It's like a kind of juxtaposition of masculinity and femininity. That position, I feel.

Caitlin Durante (13:53)

Oh, okay, Yeah. I mean, I like where this is going. I was thinking when he's not like, fully submerged in water in his clothes, he's often being, like, rained on. So in other movies where he's not all the way underwater, there will be wetness, water splashing on him, rain coming down on him. So he's always wet, basically, is the point. And I also think it contributes to, like, it's just more dramatic when there's like a downpour on the actors, a big climactic moment or a big profession of love. It's more dramatic when there's rain. So I think, honestly, the rain and the wetness is used by the filmmakers to kind of trick us into thinking he's a better actor than he is.

Amanda Montel (14:34)

Okay, here we are already.

Caitlin Durante (14:37)

I know, we're all right. We're still on the trivia of when his birthday is, which I don't know.

Amanda Montel (14:43)

All to say, he was born on November 11, 1974.

Caitlin Durante (14:46)

Okay, good for him. Eleven. Eleven. Make a wish.

Amanda Montel (14:49)

Very lucky. We're also recording this episode, the year that he turns 50.

Caitlin Durante (14:53)

Yeah.

Amanda Montel (14:53)

So he is now officially twice as old as the cutoff age for his romantic partner. Numerology numbers. Okay. He was born in la. He's an LA native. He was baptized by the cult of Hollywood. And his breakthrough role, one could say, was Caitlyn. Do you know the film was 1993's what's Eden?

Caitlin Durante (15:17)

Gilbert Grape.

Amanda Montel (15:18)

This Boy's life.

Caitlin Durante (15:19)

Okay, that one too.

Amanda Montel (15:20)

But what's eating Gilbert grape was also 93. You're absolutely right. Just to rattle off some of his best known projects, for those who dare not to know, we already mentioned Romeo plus Juliet. He's delish in that. I just rewatched it on VHS. Titanic came in 97. Then in 2002, he starts to get a little more edgy. We've got Gangs of New York in 04. We've got the Aviator. Now we're moving into Martin Scorsese territory with the departed. In 2010, when I graduated high school, we got Inception. Okay. Dream within a dream. Now we're Coming to the Wolf of Wall street, the Revenant, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood came in 2019. What has he done since? Just surfed with young girls, allegedly. I'm making that up. He's not a criminal. All right.

Caitlin Durante (16:10)

That we know of. He was in that Don't look up. And then he was also in Killers of the Flower Moon, which I am halfway through, and I have been halfway through for about three months.

Amanda Montel (16:21)

Long one. Okay. Other than the water motif.

Caitlin Durante (16:25)

Yeah.

Amanda Montel (16:26)

Does anything about Leo's filmography, the roles that he plays, the directors that he works with, anything at all? Give Cult to you?

Caitlin Durante (16:36)

The closest thing I could think of would be his constant collaboration with Martin Scorsese in particular. You know, Scorsese, he's an auteur. He's someone who, when he finds an actor he likes working with, he casts them again and again. We've seen this with his relationship with Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci, you know, a handful of others, and Leonardo DiCaprio is one of them because they've done Gangs of New York, Shutter island, the Departed, Wolf of Wall street as well, and then Killers of the Flower Moon. There are these, like, director, actor collaborations with, like, for example, Tim Burton and Johnny Depp that do feel cultier. The way that, I don't know, both of those people are just very problematic. And a lot of the fans and followers of those movies and that duo are just like, what's the big deal? It's fun, it's quirky, totally.

Amanda Montel (17:27)

It creates a cult of personality, a that comes with lore, an aesthetic, and, of course, an in group. Like, you know how Wes Anderson has that clique of actors that he always works with? And I was also thinking how celebrity power couples are kind of bigger than the sum of their parts in terms of stardom, and people get totally enamored and attached to them almost in this, like, parasocial parent, child way. That's almost how these Hollywood cliques can feel, too. It's an identity at that point, if that makes sense.

Caitlin Durante (17:59)

It does make sense, and I totally agree. I think maybe another component of this, and I'm having this thought in real time, so forgive me if it's kind of half baked, but I find that a lot of the characters that Leonardo DiCaprio plays, and you could also isolate specifically the ones that he has done with Martin Scorsese in those movies. But I think also, generally he's playing these often men who are very flawed. And sometimes the movie recognizes that and sometimes the movie doesn't. And for the movies that doesn't. It's just sort of like presenting this. But he's still such a charismatic and handsome cool guy. And isn't that awesome? And isn't that so cool? And then even for the ones where there is an acknowledgment of this guy being very flawed, such as his character in the Wolf of Wall street, which is a biopic about a real person, Jordan Belfort. Right. But when you cast Leonardo DiCaprio in a role like that, it's telegraphing to the audience like, no, this guy's actually kind of cool. And even though we see his downfall, we don't really necessarily remember that part of the movie. And we actually had a discussion about this on the Wolf of Wall street episode because that movie is almost identical to an earlier Scorsese movie, Goodfellas, that came out nearly 20 years before. But that movie, I think, does a better job of like, showing also real life person Henry Hill and his downfall and all of the, like, you know, hubris and toxic behavior and toxic masculinity that contribute to that. But a movie that comes out a couple decades after that and has a very similar structure and is about a very similar guy who rises to prominence and wealth and then has an undoing. But I don't know, the way that the Leo character is framed in Wolf of Wall street is like, people are still like, oh, but he was so cool. And isn't it awesome how rich he was and how many women he had sex with? And isn't that so inspiring? Because, so I don't know. I think the characters he tends to play contribute to this toxicity and idea of masculinity that ends up being really toxic. That I think a lot of his fans and followers are just like, yeah, this is an aspirational guy and his characters are aspirational.

Amanda Montel (20:09)

Ah, yeah. That is such an interesting take on how the charisma of a cult followed actor can subtly sort of glorify the anti heroes that he plays. And that point that you're making makes me think, you know, I had an intuition looking at his filmography, that there was a kind of cultish progression. I'm speaking with hyperbole here, but if I dare make the connection, usually an actual cult leader like a Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate or a Keith Ranieri will start out with kind of an innocuous idea or something really silly or just more acceptable. Like, let me put it this way, Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate's first idea was not let's all kill ourselves in order to board an imaginary spacecraft that will take us to the kingdom of heaven. Right. Like, it started out more innocent, and then it escalated. I don't know if this was just opportunistic. I can't imagine that someone, like, planned this out for Leonardo DiCaprio's career. But the fact that he started out as this romantic lead, this, like, charming, innocent. I mean, he was such an underdog in some of those earlier projects, like what's Eating Gilbert Grape and this Boy's Life. And then he became this heartthrob that an entire generation was just goo goo gah gah. And so he established himself as a Harry Styles, Justin Bieber type, only to then go on and play these very problematic men in these violent films. But he'd already made America fall in love with him. So it's like a sneaky way to introduce an audience to the idea that, like, a cute boy can get away with anything.

Caitlin Durante (21:53)

Yeah. Because he's this heartthrob in Romeo and Juliet and especially Titanic, and that's kind of the instigator of this Leomania. And never again does he play any kind of, like, heartthrob character or, like, romantic lead that would encourage the audience to be like, ooh, I want to be with him. His little blonde locks falling into his eyes as he draws you like one of his French girls. That doesn't happen again for the rest of his career, I don't think.

Amanda Montel (22:21)

Right.

Caitlin Durante (22:21)

He goes on to do a few movies in the late 90s that were mostly, like, critical flops, slash things that, like, have mostly been forgotten by the Zeitgeist, like Man with the Iron Mask, he kind of falls off for a little while, and I think he was, like, deliberately trying to distance himself from this, like, like, heartthrob Leo Mania Persona. That's not the actor he wanted to be. So then he comes back a few years later with things like Gangs of New York and Catch Me if youf can, which is a little lighter tonally, and it's a Spielberg movie and stuff like that. But I think he was like, Gangs of New York. This is what I want to be doing. Because pretty much every movie after this, with a few exceptions, but it's a lot of other collaborations with Scorsese, a lot of serious biopics. He's in stuff like the Aviator, he's in Blood diamond, he's in the Departed, he's in Revolutionary Road. Teaming up with Kate Winslet again. But both of them were like, we don't Want to do another Titanic? Let's do something where our relationship is utterly failing. So he's like trying to distance himself from this. And by the mid 2000s, I think he's successfully done that. And then it's interesting because he goes from being this like teeny bopper heartthrob at the not onset of his career because there were a few roles in the earlier 90s, like we were talking about this boy's life and what's eating.

Amanda Montel (23:47)

Gilbert Grape during his come up.

Caitlin Durante (23:48)

During his come up. Right. And then he basically goes on to take pretty much nothing but character actor roles, which is interesting because he's kind of one of the few a lister movie star like bonafide celebrity actors who's also a character actor like Johnny Depp.

Amanda Montel (24:06)

Another person who we could do a whole sounds like a cult and should do a whole sounds like a episode about.

Caitlin Durante (24:12)

Right.

Amanda Montel (24:12)

And it's occurring to me how sinister it is that in order for an actor to be taken seriously in Hollywood, they have to reject things that girls and young women like.

Caitlin Durante (24:23)

Oh my gosh, yeah.

Amanda Montel (24:25)

No. In order to win an Oscar or to try really, really, really, really hard for a long time to win an Oscar and fail and then finally succeed. But you know what I mean, That's Leo's story. I have to slough off this Persona that makes women interested in me and my work because that's frivolous and that is not Oscar worthy. Instead, I have to be this violent anti hero in order to be respected. And I find that so culty reflective of the larger cult of Hollywood and also probably reflective of some values that he holds.

Caitlin Durante (24:59)

I would say so based on his behavior in life. I have two other examples of this and I'm sure there are more. But the two that pop to mind are Matthew McConaughey. There's a long chunk of his career in the late 90s, early 2000s that he's pretty much only doing rom coms and he's doing a really bad job in them. And he never has chemistry with any of the romantic leads he's paired with. And you know, he was like, whatever, People magazine, sexiest man alive all these times. He was also this like heartthrob guy and he shed that. And now he does these kind of serious roles and now people take him seriously as an actor. And before that he was like, oh, that's just the guy who's in the rom com. So therefore that can't be taken seriously. The other example is Robert Pattinson blowing up as the co lead in the Twilight movies. And you know, were those movies good? No. Were they very problematic? Yes. But there is something about movies, or just media in general, that is targeted toward teens and tweens and young girls and young women that, like you said, get so dismissed by the pretentious Hollywood elites that even if there are examples of movies like that being really good, they'll still be dismissed. But anyway, he wasn't taken seriously as an actor until he got away from Twilight and started doing these other roles. So, yeah, it's a common trend.

Amanda Montel (26:27)

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Caitlin Durante (26:42)

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Amanda Montel (27:10)

So, Caitlin, my next question for you is While we were sort of like arranging this recording, we were on an email thread with some podcasty people, and when I mentioned that we were doing this topic, one of those podcasty people chimed in and was like, oh my God, I'm in this cult. She said, holy shit, I can't wait to listen to this episode. I used to have a fan Tumblr dedicated to Leonardo DiCaprio. It's still up. The little bio says, like mentally married to Leonardo DiCaprio. She said she had every single one of his movies on Blu Ray. I don't know the backstory behind this, why this came to pass, but she had scientifically named a spider after him that is now in a published journal. Going to need to do some follow up on that. Could you talk about how Leonardo DiCaprio's role as a 90s heartthrob is different from other heartthrobs before or after him in a cult Y capacity.

Caitlin Durante (28:08)

Oh gosh. Well, I wonder if some of it has to do with the fact that and this might be controversial of me to say, but he's not necessarily a classically handsome man in the way that heartthrobs many before and since have been these kind of like rugged cowboy types or like Action movie heartthrobs with glistening muscles and like a James Dean. A James Dean. You've got your, like Harrison ford in the 80s and Leonardo DiCaprio. He's like scrawny especially. And I'm talking about like him in his heartthrob era, which is like Romeo and Juliet and Titanic 1996, 1997. He has somewhat feminine features to his face. He has this hair that just kind of flops around. He doesn't have the same type of. That Western culture has deemed to be like, ooh, this is the ideal man with his like swashbuckling cowboy demeanor and that kind of thing. So I don't know how much that has to do with.

Amanda Montel (29:18)

Well, I think what it has to do with it is that he appealed to the very, very, very, very young. Like he was attractive to a 12 year old. Like a 12 year old has crushes on the boys in her School. An 18, 20, 25 year old Leonardo DiCaprio almost looked like a boy in her school.

Caitlin Durante (29:39)

He had a very boyish look where, yeah, like 12 year old girls aren't looking at a 40 year old Harrison Ford and being like, hubba hubba. They're like, ooh, that's a gross old man. But they look at Leonardo DiCaprio on Titanic and they're like, that could be my boyfriend.

Amanda Montel (29:54)

Yes. So in a way, he like shaped a generation. Like people have been in love with him since they were 10 years old or younger. So that's powerful.

Caitlin Durante (30:03)

That is powerful. And difficult to talk about this without sounding like extremely judgmental or ageist or any number of things, but, like, he hasn't aged as well as many of his other Hollywood counterparts. He's got the whole dad bod thing going on now, and he has for a decade or more kind of thing. And people just, they're like, who cares? He's Leonardo DiCaprio. I don't find him especially handsome. And I think we might be getting off topic here, but I've never been someone who's like, he's so cute. His character, character in Titanic, like, kind of does it for me, but like, not even totally.

Amanda Montel (30:42)

Well, I mean, cult leaders are sex symbols regardless of their appearance. Like a successful cult leader, and I like shudder to call them successful, but like cult leaders who we can name became that way because they established themselves as sex symbols. Not necessarily because they were hot, but they have this amazing way of creating intimacy. Like, that's what love bombing is like. You have this way of making everyone that you encounter feel like you get Them like you are speaking uniquely to them. And I think there was something really intimate about those heartthrob years with Leonardo DiCaprio's movies. And I think that also has to do with the underdog thing and the youth and whatever and like him playing poorer characters and, you know, more boyish characters. It wasn't just his appearance. There was intimacy there. And that's culty.

Caitlin Durante (31:33)

So true. He just seems relatable, especially in those heartthrob years. He has, again, this face that just seems inviting. And I think it's because, again, he just seems like a boy who might be in your class.

Amanda Montel (31:43)

Yeah. Or a girl.

Caitlin Durante (31:44)

Or a girl.

Amanda Montel (31:45)

I feel like Leonardo DiCaprio was like many people's bisexual awakening.

Caitlin Durante (31:49)

Yeah. And there's a whole separate kind of sub cult around this notion that Titanic is actually a lesbian movie about two lesbians who fall in love on Titanic because it's Kate Winslet and another woman who is played by Leonardo DiCaprio. So he does have have a very lesbian quality about him, especially in that movie and Romeo and Juliet, I would say for sure.

Amanda Montel (32:14)

So on that note, since Titanic is really your area of expertise, could you talk about some of the cultiest Titanic fan rituals, traditions, obsessive tendencies, merch, etc that you've seen?

Caitlin Durante (32:29)

Oh, my gosh. Well, speaking of merch, I just want to show you the shirt that I'm wearing right now. For the listeners at home, it is just a Titanic shirt with the kind of traditional Titanic poster. I own a Heart of the Ocean necklace. I don't wear it. I'm just like, I need this. I need this to have. And there are other just sort of shows that people create. There's a show called Titanique, which is a musical parody of the movie Titanic as told by Celine Dion. If she were a passenger on the Titanic and it's her sort of like observing and narrating the story. It's a great show that goes up in New York City. Someone who I met at Edinburgh Fringe a few years ago did a show called Never Let Go and it's a solo show recreation of the movie Titanic.

Amanda Montel (33:18)

Okay, baby reindeer.

Caitlin Durante (33:20)

Yes, that. But Titanic, there's also what you could maybe consider churches. I've been to a number of Titanic themed bars and restaurants. There was one in Los Angeles called Cafe Jack. It was a restaurant that was like, really, really badly done and like poorly executed and I think might have been a front for something. It was a Titanic themed sushi restaurant. And so the things on the menu were called like the Titanic Roll The Jack and Rose roll there was just like decor that was again like poorly executed around the walls of the restaurant. I went to a Titanic themed restaurant in Brussels.

Amanda Montel (33:55)

Right. So these are like houses of worship that you go and visit to pay homage to pilgrimage, just. Just to prove your fandom to yourself.

Caitlin Durante (34:05)

Exactly.

Amanda Montel (34:06)

I just have to brag for one second that the signature cocktail that I created for my friend's 30th birthday party was called a Jack and Rose. And it was a rose liqueur whiskey cocktail. The like Four Roses whiskey. And that was kind of the Jack Daniels. So it was called a Jack and Rose.

Caitlin Durante (34:23)

I love that, man. That makes me just want to come up with a whole menu of food and cocktails. Titanic themed.

Amanda Montel (34:29)

This is the fun part of being in a culture. Hi. Sounds like a cult. My name is Mary and I'm from California. And I think Leonardo DiCaprio is a cult or I guess a cult leader because I fell in love with him in Titanic when I was six years old. And even though now as an adult woman, I am fully aware of what a creep he is and his reputation he is is still very much my hall pass in my marriage.

Caitlin Durante (35:03)

Hey, culties, this is your co host Chelsea phoning in. I think the cultiest thing about Leo is that there are rumors that he.

Amanda Montel (35:11)

Can'T have casual sex unless he's wearing headphones.

Caitlin Durante (35:16)

Allegedly I was part of the Love.

Amanda Montel (35:20)

And Leo fan club cult in about 1998. I begged my parents to join. I don't know know if I had to send in or maybe I just.

Caitlin Durante (35:28)

Bought it at the book fair. But it was a like a magazine, a poster that was supposed to be.

Amanda Montel (35:34)

Signed by him and then dog tags that said Love and Leo.

Caitlin Durante (35:39)

And I wore them very, very proudly. Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints, and everywhere in between. So no matter where you go in every bar, you'll always know someone by name.

Amanda Montel (35:57)

Jack, Jack and Coke.

Caitlin Durante (35:59)

Shot of Jack. Jack Daniels, please. Right away. That's what makes Jack Jack. Please drink responsibly.

Amanda Montel (36:05)

Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks copyright 2025. Jack Daniels Tennessee whiskey. 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof. With the Venmo debit card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo the this or their next show.

Caitlin Durante (36:18)

You can Venmo that.

Amanda Montel (36:19)

Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by Mastercard International Incorporated card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply. So thus far, we've been applying a sort of overly analytical lens to things about Leonardo DiCaprio that may or may not have been executed on purpose. Just kind of trying to understand why he's been elevated to this culty statistical in a way that almost doesn't have anything to do with him. Now, I want to talk about some things that he has actually done that are culty and controversial.

Caitlin Durante (36:52)

Yeah.

Amanda Montel (36:53)

So the first thing is the sort of savior status surrounding his environmental activism. So I remember a time in the early 2000s when Leonardo DiCaprio had recently founded the Leonardo DiCaprio foundation, advocating for climate awareness and wildlife conservation, and was establishing himself as a sort of climate hero. He was the first person I ever knew about to own a Prius. Regina George wore army pants and flip flops. So now I'm wearing army pants and flip flops. Leonardo DiCaprio got a Prius. My parents got a Prius. And I remember them referencing him.

Caitlin Durante (37:29)

That's so funny.

Amanda Montel (37:30)

They were loving that about him. So he was lauded for this activism that he was doing, only then to be accosted with accusations of hypocrisy due to his use of private jets and yachts, while in the same breath advocating for all of these causes. And there has been all this public scrutiny, scrutiny over his carbon footprint. Do you think Leonardo DiCaprio's environmental hypocrisy is culty, or do you think it is just typical celebrity, imperfect, fallible behavior that always comes with celebrities getting involved with any kind of activism?

Caitlin Durante (38:05)

I feel like there is a culty component to it, and you're far more the expert on this than I am. But my impression of cult leader is that some of them don't even believe the thing that they're culting about. It's just that they see this as an opportunity to gain power or gain money or influence, and they just want control over other people. And so they just kind of invented a thing or they are pushing forth an ideology that they know people can get behind and that they have the skills to get people to get behind them, like so many leaders of, like, mega churches. So I think that actually is very culty, this hypocrisy of, like, him saying one thing and then almost placing the responsibility to, like, oh, well, I don't need to watch my carbon footprint because I'm above that. I'm too famous and rich and beautiful for that. But all you peasants out there, you should be the ones to do It.

Amanda Montel (39:03)

Yeah. To go so far as to, like, establish yourself as a leading voice in the. This charitable space dealing with an existential concern. It's not like his activism has to do with, I don't know, the local cat sanctuary, which is existential for us as cat lovers, but, like, you know, that's a little more humble. It's less savior. Complexy. I would argue that, like, the most important issue. Listen to me, like, the most important issue facing our society is, like, the environment. The hot take. And here comes Leonardo DiCaprio being like, I'm gonna save us, but do as I, not as I do. Because ultimately I am a movie star.

Caitlin Durante (39:43)

Yeah. I'm above the thing, and so I can do whatever I want.

Amanda Montel (39:47)

You know, they say that in addition to flying, one of the worst things that you can do for the environment is procreating. So counterpoint. And we haven't gotten here yet, but maybe his pattern of only dating women who are not, like, of appropriate age is to save the environment through not procreating and becoming f. I mean, we.

Caitlin Durante (40:08)

Do have to kind of find these compromises. Right. As someone who also cares deeply about the environment and preservation and stuff like that, I'm someone who, yes, I do take flights because I like to travel and I like to go places, but I counteract that with other things. We.

Amanda Montel (40:24)

Oh, totally. No, we're definitely all full of contradictions, each of us that could be framed as culty. I'm sure if someone chose to look at it from a certain angle. And I think that's kind of just a part of what it means to be alive and on the Internet or in public in any way whatsoever, attempting to. To create a meaningful life in modern society. Which actually kind of begs the question, despite Leo's sort of hypocrisies, allegedly, would we rather him not speak about the environment at all? Because I wonder what the net effect is like. Is it. It's probably net positive.

Caitlin Durante (41:00)

Probably. Hard to say. And I'm speculating here, but my speculation is that he's just sort of kind of putting on a show to be able to, like, I'm a good person. Look at me caring about something. I don't know. And this might just be me here, but for me, his activism is not so much about what he is doing, but what he is not doing. And it's not as though I'm saying, like, every celebrity's responsibility is to talk about every single issue facing the sun.

Amanda Montel (41:29)

Oh, I think it's definitely not totally.

Caitlin Durante (41:32)

But also for me, it's Such a. And, and again, maybe this is another one of my half baked opinions here, but I feel like he's like one of the most popular and influential people in Hollywood and he has a position to advocate for far more marginalized people. He has a production company, he could be funding projects that marginalized filmmakers are making, but he's not really doing that. Instead he's just like drive a Prius.

Amanda Montel (41:58)

Well, you know, celebrities role in activism. It really is such an interesting and sort of charged subject. On my other podcast, Magical Overthinkers, we have an episode on celebrity worship that goes more formally and less cheekily into the sociology of this subject. But I will say it is a relatively new like past 20 years phenomenon that so many of us expect the celebrities that we admire not to just entertain us, but to save us. Especially with certain cult followed women. And if I may, this connects to something called the Halo effect where a larger than life figure advocates for one cause that some of their fans care about. And then some jump to the conclusion, conclusion that that celebrity should then align with them on every other cause too. And when they don't, they become disappointed. Right now I think if a celebrity is moved to speak out about a specific cause, whether it's the environment or more just labor practices, I don't think we should discourage that or tell them to stay in their lane. But I also don't know if it would necessarily be productive or realistic to expect every Hollywood actor to speak up about everything just because we happen to care about a cause that isn't their public priority. Maybe it's their private priority, I don't know. Or maybe it's not. Part of what's interesting about discussing the cult of celebrity in 2025 is that expectation that they are not just here to amuse us, they're here to save us. And that pop stars and actors are our new sort of clergy. Yeah, to be honest, in my real life, I truly, truly like to just give most people the benefit of the doubt. But in the interest of melodrama and discussion, for the sake of this show, we can certainly make certain speculations like perhaps if anything, Leo DiCaprio is able to get it up for the environment because like he too lives on planet Earth.

Caitlin Durante (43:50)

I don't know, I just, I get upset with people who have all this power and influence and wealth and only care about issues that directly affect them. That's such a privilege, privileged place to be.

Amanda Montel (44:02)

I get fucking bitter about people in tech like Hollywood money and Hollywood influence is hennies compared to the type of power and influence that people have in the business world, in tech. Those blessed, invisible, powerful people are the people who make me fucking angry. Yeah, what is this podcast about? I'm just kidding. It always gets here, though. It is just a fascinating ongoing discussion that I don't have the answers to. And I don't think anybody has a perfect take about is like, what is the role of a celebrity in activism, politics, making the world a better place. There's no playbook for, like, how to be an A lister and a good person.

Caitlin Durante (44:44)

True, Very true.

Amanda Montel (44:45)

Dolly Parton's done it best.

Caitlin Durante (44:47)

Ooh, yeah, you're probably right. In general, I find his activism pretty culty because it doesn't feel genuine. It doesn't feel authentic. It feels like I'm preaching this, but I don't have to do it myself because it's too hard.

Amanda Montel (45:05)

Okay, so now I'm curious. Culties listeners, let us know what you think. If you go and find our cult of Leonardo DiCaprio Instagram post @ Sounds like a cult pod, you can weigh in on this particular subject matter. We would love that. Okay, I want to talk about one more of Leonardo DiCaprio's culty controversies, and then we're going to play a little this one, of course, has to do with the power dynamics found in his romantic relationship. So as we mentioned, Leonardo DiCaprio is 50 this year, and he is known more than, like any other actor that I can think of, for dating women half his age in their early 20s. This has led to widespread criticism jokes about him having a cutoff age at 25 for his romantic partner partners. Even the Guardian has covered his dating habits in a 2022 piece titled Leonardo DiCaprio. Why don't you date someone your own age? Arwa Madawi writes, quote, At 25, you have reached maturity and have a fully formed brain. You also have absolutely no chance of dating Leonardo DiCaprio. DiCaprio's predilection for women without fully formed prefrontal cortexes has become a cultural talking point and earned a name Leo's Life Law because of just how strictly he adheres to the age limit. A few years ago, a Reddit user plugged all of DiCaprio's relationship since 1999 into Excel and came up with a viral chart that shows DiCaprio steadily aging and his many girlfriends remaining frozen in time forever under 25. This week, a new data point became available. DiCaprio broke up with his girlfriend of four years, Camila Marrone, just a few months after her 25th birthday. It's perfectly possible for two consenting adults to have a healthy and equitable relationship despite a significant age. However, it feels like a major red flag. If a man consistently dates women half his age, one suspects that person isn't actually looking for a partner, but an admirer. So my last question for you, Caitlin, is could you armchair analyze Leo's dating history? And do you think it's cult leadery?

Caitlin Durante (47:05)

I think it's so culty the way that, again, cult leaders often just want to find a way to access power and control over other people. And it's not the age difference necessarily. Although dating, dating someone half your age, there's bound to be a major power imbalance. But the case by case basis kind of thing. But the fact that he's made this such a pattern and the fact that there's all this context, which is that women under the patriarchy are valued for their youth and their beauty. And once women start aging, they become far less valued by society and society. So because he keeps dumping women when they turn 25 or just keep going after these, you know, very classically beautiful. All of them are like supermodels. Right. So it's, you know, he's got a type and he's got an age, and he keeps going for it and going for it and going for it. And it feels very culty where he is in this position of power, not just as a celebrity who is very wealthy and who has had a heartthrob status. He's a coveted person in the public eye, but he has power in his age. And I can't help but feel he's probably just, like, exercising the power he has gained over these younger women. And I don't want to take away any autonomy from them because that's often been a countercriticism where it's like, well, these women are choosing to date him too. They have the autonomy to do whatever they want. And it's, like, fair, but it's more of a about, again, this pattern of behavior where he's clearly exercising his power again the way cult leaders do and the way the cult leaders, like, try to become cult leaders so they have access to power so they can do stuff like this. So it certainly feels very culty to me.

Amanda Montel (49:00)

Yeah, I think it's symptomatic of the larger Hollywood cult because, like, I personally know powerful Hollywood men who date women half their age. And it's a trip because, like, it seems normal to them like this. They go about their day. I mean, it's so obvious that there's a power dynamic to everybody on the outside, but they don't seem to sense that. And I think part of it might have to do. I mean, this is just like a cliched axiom that gets repeated. But they say that celebrities stop aging at the age when they got famous. They stop maturing past that. And so Leonardo DiCaprio was very young, so that's not an excuse, but. But it might explain some of this pattern. And then, I mean, you could also argue that these women are accessing some of his power. And so there's actually an exchange of power. But I don't know. I think it's just culty that this exists in Hollywood as a pattern. I think it's culty that Leo's pattern is so consistent. And it also can't be ignored that he was friends with Harvey Weinstein and underwent criticism for not speaking out earlier during. During that scandal. In fact, actually now is probably a good time to mention that in the 90s, Leo and his friends were known by some, I hear, as the quote unquote, pussy posse, whose sole purpose was to have sex with as many women as possible. Reports have been made that Leo's father encouraged him to lose his virginity at the age of six, which is super fcked up. And throughout his life he was surrounded by a kind of maybe allegedly sus quantity of sexual predators, from the aforementioned Harvey Weinstein to Brian Peek a Predator, who we talked about in our Nickelodeon episode. David Blaine, Leo's own manager, was a predator. So I don't know where sex and Leo are concerned. There's definitely plenty of reason to get the ick. And yet his reputation is still that of a dreamboat. So that's just like another data point contributing to this general feeling that like, oh, that's culty that he keeps engaging in this behavior.

Caitlin Durante (51:06)

It's interesting too, how it is analogous, I think, to a lot of movie franchises where let's look at like Mission Impossible movie. It's always the same lead where it's like one big movie star and he's consistent throughout. But then there's like the love interest, usually a different one in each movie and they never get older. They cast new actors who stay the same age and the guy is getting older and older and older, and it's like, well, we need a new woman, a new fresh face for this new installment of the franchise. And she has to be, you know, 26. Can't be older than that. Even though this guy is pushing 50 or 60 in like the Tom Cruise example. And I'm sure people be like, but there's the same Rebecca Ferguson's in several of the things. Whatever you like, watch any franchise like this, and it's like the man keeps aging and he stays consistent throughout. And the woman is always recast and she stays the same age. They don't cast anyone who is the same age.

Amanda Montel (52:12)

Yes. There is such permission in Hollywood from every angle for these dynamics. And yet Leonardo DiCaprio seems to be representing them, like, the most extremely.

Caitlin Durante (52:23)

Yeah. In real life and not like a movie. This is his real life. And it's like, maybe life shouldn't imitate art in this example.

Amanda Montel (52:33)

Foreign. Hey, culties. This is your co host Reese phoning in.

Caitlin Durante (52:42)

And I think the cultiest thing about.

Amanda Montel (52:43)

Leonardo DiCaprio is how he sort of built his celebrity image around his tragic losses and then kind of took advantage of the people's sympathy in order to manipulate them and. And kind of start a cult in his own right and date exclusively women under 25. I've never found him super cute or attractive.

Caitlin Durante (53:10)

Titanic was just, okay, hot take. I don't get it. I don't get the obsession.

Amanda Montel (53:15)

I don't get the infatuation.

Caitlin Durante (53:17)

And I think that he clings to youth as a way to stay relevant.

Amanda Montel (53:23)

I think he's a great actor.

Caitlin Durante (53:24)

I'm not gonna. I mean, gotta give kudos, but, yeah.

Amanda Montel (53:28)

I just don't get it. Okay. I feel like we have pretty thoroughly discussed Leonardo DiCaprio's cult influence. Before we get to our verdict, though, I want to play a little game. This is a classic. Sounds like a cult game. It is called culty quotes. So I'm going to read a sequence of quotes to you. Some of them were uttered by classic cult leaders from history. Some of them were uttered by Leonardo DiCaprio and Yuri. Going to have to guess whether each quote was said by Leo or a cult leader.

Caitlin Durante (53:57)

I'm going to be really bad at this, but I can't wait. I'm so excited.

Amanda Montel (54:00)

It's way more fun if you're bad at it.

Caitlin Durante (54:01)

Okay. Awesome.

Amanda Montel (54:03)

The first quote says, I think I will always feel like an outsider.

Caitlin Durante (54:08)

I could see Leonardo DiCaprio saying something like that.

Amanda Montel (54:11)

You are correct. That was Leonardo DiCaprio. Good job. Being hot is so lonely.

Caitlin Durante (54:17)

No one understands me. It's so hard.

Amanda Montel (54:20)

Okay, second quote. I love being immersed in nature, going to places in the world that are pristine and untouched by man. It's almost a religious experience when you go to a place like the Amazon and there's no Civilization for thousands of miles.

Caitlin Durante (54:35)

I feel like that could also be Leonardo DiCaprio.

Amanda Montel (54:38)

You are correct.

Caitlin Durante (54:40)

Okay. All right, there he goes, flying around.

Amanda Montel (54:42)

The world, doing things for the environment. And by doing things for the environment, we mean going on vacation in the environment.

Caitlin Durante (54:49)

Yes, yes.

Amanda Montel (54:50)

Okay, next. Next quote. I never thought I was normal. Never trying to be normal.

Caitlin Durante (54:54)

Let's say cult leader.

Amanda Montel (54:55)

You are correct. That's Charles Manson.

Caitlin Durante (54:59)

Which is like, very similar to the first quote it is heard Leonardo DiCaprio saying.

Amanda Montel (55:04)

Yeah, male cult leaders always have a chip on their shoulder. Next quote. My mission is a cosmic mission.

Caitlin Durante (55:10)

Oh, let's say Leo.

Amanda Montel (55:12)

Oooh, that was Reverend Sung Young Moon, leader of the Unification Church, aka the Moon. Okay, thank God we finally got you. But I thought, like, that does sound like a marketing line for his foundation, does it not? Okay, two more. Next quote. Let me clarify this very definitely. This is not an authoritarian organization.

Caitlin Durante (55:35)

I want to say Leo. And if that's true, I want to know what he's talking about.

Amanda Montel (55:41)

Okay, so that is L. Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology.

Caitlin Durante (55:45)

That makes more sense because, like, a.

Amanda Montel (55:47)

Cult, just like a religion, is a business. And so I do find that it's funny. Whenever a cult leader talks about, like, the business aspect of their organization, they automatically sound like, oh, that's something that I could have heard like a CEO say. Or like Mark Zuckerberg on it, being deposed, you know?

Caitlin Durante (56:04)

Right. Also another example of someone who didn't believe the cult they invented. He was a science fiction writer who's like, I'm just going to invent a religion and try to get rich off this because I wasn't a very successful religion writer.

Amanda Montel (56:15)

Listen, again, chip on that shoulder. But it's good to be nimble. It's good to pivot, you know, he's.

Caitlin Durante (56:22)

So versatile, just like Leonardo DiCaprio. He has so much range as an actor.

Amanda Montel (56:26)

Yes. All right, last quote. I'm not the kind of person who tries to be cool or trendy. I'm definitely an individual.

Caitlin Durante (56:34)

That's got to be Leo. Ding, ding, ding.

Amanda Montel (56:37)

That is Leo.

Caitlin Durante (56:38)

That's such. He cares so much about his image. Without question, why else would he be dating 25 year old supermodels?

Amanda Montel (56:52)

All right, Kaitlyn, we've reached that portion of the Sounds Like a Cult episode where I have to ask, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which cult category do you think the cult of Leonardo DiCaprio falls into?

Caitlin Durante (57:10)

Ooh, this one feels a little tricky because it doesn't feel that harmful to belong to the cult of Leonardo DiCaprio, at least on the surface. But if you are a kind of like dude bro, who's like, he's my fucking idol and I love this guy and I love his characters. They're so aspirational. That's an ideology that's like contributing to the downfall of the world, I. E. The patriarchy. So I don't know, I would say it's probably the first one because it's not the. That harmful. But like the psychology of celebrity obsession, you know, you do have these like figures who people become obsessed with celebrities who we idolize and we say, oh, they can do nothing wrong. And obviously he's faced his fair share of criticism, but he's still a very prominent figure in Hollywood. I don't see him going away anytime soon.

Amanda Montel (58:06)

I think your instinct is right. I think it's a live your life. I think think Leonardo DiCaprio has maybe taken advantage of his power in these like little cult of one type ways with his romantic relationships. And he's maybe a little bit opportunistic when it comes to his activism. But there are Hollywood figures who go way farther with their cult leader role. Whether you're talking about like Taylor Swift. I mean, I think I've even leaned into like a cult leader role as the host of Sounds like a Cult more than Leonardo DiCaprio. I swear to God. He's like not leaned in to like any of the fan ritual as far as I can tell. He's not out here Jared Letoing, you know, like coming up with a sleepover for all of his fans.

Caitlin Durante (58:56)

What that happened? Oh my God.

Amanda Montel (58:58)

It's a long story. But yeah, I think like he is a cult followed figure in spite of himself. He has. Has a culty approach to some of his relationships and just like the way that he moves through the world. But like as far as the cult of Leonardo DiCaprio, overall, I think it's a live your life. Like if you want to throw those Titanic parties, invite me to co host. Like have a great old time. Live your life.

Caitlin Durante (59:25)

You're gonna make some delicious cocktails. And yeah, it feels pretty harmless lists for the most part. And I think the way that he's exploiting his power as a cult leader is mostly to get beautiful girlfriends.

Amanda Montel (59:40)

Yeah.

Caitlin Durante (59:41)

So you know, and he's not even.

Amanda Montel (59:44)

Trying to have more than one at the same time really. I mean he probably is, but like, not in a way that's special. The ways that he is problematic, I don't even necessarily think are all that.

Caitlin Durante (59:55)

Culty could be worse for sure.

Amanda Montel (59:57)

Well that's fucking boring. I'm just kidding. I am glad that we talked about this. I do hope to do Shrek in the future. Future.

Caitlin Durante (60:04)

Oh my gosh.

Amanda Montel (60:05)

Please. We'll circle back. Caitlyn, thank you so much for being here. If folks want to keep up with you and your work and your pod and your cult, where can they do that?

Caitlin Durante (60:13)

Oh my gosh. You can follow the cult of Caitlyn Durante on my Instagram at Caitlin Durante. Actually, I am a bit of a cult leader in the sense that I have convinced so many people to watch the Paddington movies.

Amanda Montel (60:25)

I can't wait to watch it. I've heard such good things.

Caitlin Durante (60:28)

Well, join my cult.

Amanda Montel (60:29)

Paddington Bear is one of my style icons cons along with Madeline.

Caitlin Durante (60:34)

Yeah, those duffel coats and those wide brimmed hats.

Amanda Montel (60:36)

That's what I'm saying. Primary Colors.

Caitlin Durante (60:39)

Yep, yep. So the Paddington movies are awesome. Otherwise you can follow the cult of the Bechtel cast anywhere you find podcasts. Check out Amanda's Poor Things episode. We've covered 500 movies over the course of the past several years, either on our main feed or our Patreon AKA Matrix. Okay, feminism. So chances are, if you've got a favorite movie that you want to hear our feminist analysis on, we've probably covered it.

Amanda Montel (61:09)

Amazing. Well, thank you so much again for joining us. And thank you Culties for tuning in. That is our show. We'll be back with a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty.

Caitlin Durante (61:24)

Foreign.

Amanda Montel (61:30)

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the podcappin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the SoundsLikeACult on Instagram for all the discourse. SoundsLikeACultPod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free@patreon.com sounds like like a cult. Not all meals are created equal. For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time and lunch.

Caitlin Durante (62:34)

Doesn'T McDonald's breakfast comes first.

Amanda Montel (62:40)

Take an Amex card with you on your morning coffee run and earn cash. Back on a weekend trip. Earn miles. See if you pre qualify for an American Express card with no impact on your credit score. Learn more@americanexpress.com check 4 offers. Your credit score may be impacted if you accept a card. Terms apply.