The Cult of MAHA

Summary

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Sounds Like A Cult – "The Cult of MAHA"

Date: June 16, 2026
Hosts: Amanda Montell, Chelsea Charles, Reese Oliver, Iman Hariri Kia
Guest: Dr. Mike Varshavsky ("Dr. Mike")

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Episode Overview

This episode of Sounds Like A Cult investigates the movement known as MAHA—Make America Healthy Again—a wellness and medical freedom crusade that has swept up legitimate public health concerns into a swirl of cultish thinking, misinformation, and divisive rhetoric. The hosts break down the origins, language, recruitment tactics, and dangers of MAHA, focusing in particular on its public face, Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr. ("RFK Jr."), and featuring a detailed expert interview with Dr. Mike, famed digital health communicator. The episode explores how wellness messaging becomes weaponized and underscores the real world consequences for public health, policy, and vulnerable individuals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is "The Cult of MAHA"?

[04:54]

• MAHA (Make America Healthy Again) is a Trump-era "health" movement now formalized as a government initiative under Secretary RFK Jr.
• Ostensibly, MAHA's priorities address issues like food additives, vaccine skepticism, and holistic health—"restoring trust in vaccine safety," investigating autism, and changing SNAP dietary guidelines.
• The hosts identify that behind surface-level calls for health reform, the movement leans heavily on pseudoscience, anti-expert rhetoric, and conspiratorial us-vs-them narratives.

Amanda Montell [04:54]:

"It is a movement promoting seemingly good causes... All the while insidiously brushing aside science, putting public health at risk, and demonizing experts..."

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2. Cult Leader Profile: RFK Jr.

[08:22]

• RFK Jr. is painted as the archetype of the modern cult leader, combining fame, populism, and conspiracy.
• His resume: environmental lawyer, anti-vaccine activist, now U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services (since 2025).
• Notorious for outlandish, unsupported claims: COVID was engineered to spare Jews and Chinese people, antidepressants cause school shootings, chemicals "make children gay," vaccines and fluoride are deadly, etc.

Chelsea Charles [09:08]:

"He compared anti-Covid public health measures to the Holocaust... said the CIA had been planning for years to use a pandemic to end democracy..."

• Cult-leader behaviors: documented cheating scandals, egomania, and an "us vs them" mentality.

Dr. Mike [40:56]:

"The entire Maha movement started with some great principles... The issue with the Maha framing of it all is twofold. One, when they titled the movement Maha, they say that they want to make Americans or make America healthy again. And what I don't understand as a doctor is where is that again? When were we healthier than we are today?... And then the second...this moral superiority of hidden wisdom, that they know something that everyone else doesn't know..."

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3. Language & Recruitment Tactics: "Demonize the Other, Offer Secret Truths"

[10:10], [56:49]

• Use of vague "They" to foster suspicion/conspiracy ("No one loves they them pronouns more than a conspiracy theorist." – Amanda [02:12])
• Simplified, emotionally charged phrasing, e.g. "clean eating," "natural," "detox," "toxic seed oils."
• Tactics include blending legitimate complaints (e.g., about healthcare access or food quality) with wild, unsupported claims—"word salad" that confuses and persuades.

Dr. Mike [56:49]:

"When we start bringing up terms like all natural, detoxing...these words traditionally signal that you are part of this movement...there is an assumption, a false assumption, that just because something is natural means it's safe."

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4. The Engine: Influencers, Social Media, & Profits

[32:24], [33:02]

• Influencers play a major role, monetizing fear around health with supplement lines, coaching, affiliate links, paid “support” communities.
• Alarming rhetoric is rewarded by algorithms—fear sells.
• The aesthetic: a granola-meets-right-wing wellness hybrid, now mainstream in both "Brooklyn chic" and "hippie MAGA" communities.

Iman Hariri Kia [32:24]:

"Influencers are a major engine of the Maha ecosystem and they're often where the movement becomes persuasive and profitable..."

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5. Legislation, Policy, and Real-World Impact

[29:46], [31:47]

• The cultish trend is not confined to fringe groups but is embedded in law and public health policy, e.g. “La MAHA” bill in Louisiana, budget cuts to CDC/NIH, establishing new agencies to redirect health funding with a MAHA framing.
• Clinically dangerous outcomes: declining MMR vaccination rates, measles outbreaks, delayed cancer treatment due to "alternative therapies," gaps in care for marginalized populations.

Chelsea Charles [29:46]:

"The most obvious horror story is vaccines... According to the CDC, MMR vaccination rates among kindergarteners have fallen...below the 95% threshold...with a sharp rise in measles cases..."

Amanda Montell [31:47]:

"According to KFF, the Trump administration's 2026 budget proposal includes major cuts to core public health programs...while proposing $20.6 billion for a new Maha-linked agency..."

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6. Why Do People Get Pulled In? Who is Vulnerable?

[22:39], [25:36], [66:09]

• Grievances with traditional medicine are real: expensive, inaccessible, dismissive providers—especially for women, people of color, disabled & chronically ill.
• MAHA offers community and answers (even if wrong) for those desperate for solutions.
• Cult tactics target those with privilege as well as social/economic vulnerability.
• Dangers: binary thinking—once in, members must "buy into the whole lot" for community acceptance.

Iman Hariri Kia [25:36]:

"When I am at my most sick, I would do anything anyone told me just to feel relieved for a few hours..."

Dr. Mike [66:38]:

"You have to lead with empathy and understanding...the more you approach it in that way, I think the more successful you can be..."

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7. Key Hypocrisies & Contradictions

[51:25], [64:21]

• MAHA advocates decry "chemicals" in food but embrace unproven supplements and sketchy peptide treatments.
• Distrust of "Big Pharma" does not extend to the $35-billion supplement industry.
• Social media elevates charisma and PR wins over evidence-based, nuanced care.

Dr. Mike [64:21]:

"The hypocrisy...they have this unique wisdom that lead them to be very strong skeptics of Big Pharma...the bad thing actually comes from the fact that they do it unilaterally...you also need to be skeptical of the supplement world, all of these natural miracle promise formulas..."

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8. Expert Advice: How To Have Difficult Conversations

[66:38]

• Lead with empathy; don't attack with facts alone.
• Encourage curiosity about the logic and emotional roots behind beliefs.
• Avoid the trap of us-vs-them: “If you go in trying to persuade...the odds of you being effective are quite low.”

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9. Game Break: Maha or Cult Leader?

[68:15]

• Entertaining quiz highlighting how the language and ideas overlap between MAHA influencers and historic cult figures.
• Conclusion: It often comes down to packaging—the root claims are similar.

Dr. Mike [72:49]:

"If you want to make a good decision for your health, look for the evidence, not the charisma."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Amanda Montell [10:27]:
  "No one loves they them pronouns more than a conspiracy theorist."

• Chelsea Charles [23:17]:
  "It literally is where the horseshoe bends back and the left and right almost meet."

• Iman Hariri Kia [22:04]:
  "There's such a like elitist exclusivity too to the idea that in order to be living the right way you need to only eat organic...it's so expensive. It's not something that people who are often affected by poverty-based health issues can even afford..."

• Dr. Mike [42:59]:
  "What's most disappointing to me is that all those individuals that want to be healthy, that want their children to be healthy, I want that for them. But the things that they're advocating for and the way they're going about it is actually going against those goals."

• Amanda Montell [75:05] (on the cult category): "The cult of Maha—get the fuck out in its final boss form. Even if some of the intentions are pure and some of the needs that it's attempting to fill are real."

• Dr. Mike [73:07]:
  "The biggest takeaway...is that I and the healthcare industry are partly to blame for the rise of Maha. We've had a lot of failures...we've created these vacuums and a distrust that has led people to seek answers elsewhere..."

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• Intro to Episode & MAHA Overview: [02:17]–[05:53]
• RFK Jr. Profile & Claims: [08:22]–[13:58]
• Cult Tactics, Language, and Word Salad: [10:10]–[12:50]
• Policy & Legislative Impact: [29:46]–[31:47]
• Influencer Economy & Social Media: [32:24]–[35:44]
• Personal Testimonies: Chronic Illness & Vulnerability: [25:36]–[27:22]
• Interview with Dr. Mike – Overview: [39:31]–[73:59]
  • Cult Language & “All Natural” [56:41]
  • Science vs. Pseudoscience [40:56], [47:16]
  • Policy & Funding [52:45], [58:46]
  • Advice for Concerned Friends/Family [66:09]
• Game: MAHA or Cult Leader?: [68:15]–[72:32]
• Final Cult Category Verdict: [74:07]–[76:19]

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Episode’s Tone & Style

• The hosts balance rigorous analysis, playful banter, and sincere empathy.
• Frequent use of humor and pop culture references keeps the discussion accessible.
• Academic background (rhetoric, sociology) informs various breakdowns of cultish behavior, language, and marketing.

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Final Verdict

The Cult of MAHA:
Category: "Get the fuck out" (Unanimous)

• While MAHA taps into real needs and frustrations, it employs cultish tactics, wields misinformation, and has dangerous, real-world effects—especially by undermining trust in science and effective medicine.

Closing Words:
Amanda Montell [76:19]:

"Even if some of the intentions are pure and some of the needs that it's attempting to fill are real... it has to be a get the fuck out."

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Follow-Up

• Dr. Mike: Find him at "Doctor Mike" across all socials.
• Sounds Like A Cult: Instagram @soundslikeacultpod, ad-free on Patreon.
• For further reading: Amanda Montell's "Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism"

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Anytime you criticize something that he says, people believe that he is the only one capable of telling the truth. And that is not the case in any reality. But they simplify it into something that creates an us versus them mentality. And when you start creating this us versus them mentality instead of creating solutions and thinking about it in a nuanced way, you have a recipe for disaster.

[A]

Like who are they?

[C]

Who they they Us versus Them.

[D]

Can they stand up please?

[A]

No one loves they them pronouns more than a conspiracy theorist.

[C]

Literally.

[A]

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of books including Cultish, now out in paperback.

[C]

I'm Reese Oliver sounds like a cult resident rhetoric scholar.

[E]

I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology.

[D]

And I'm Iman Hariri Kia, author of Female Fantasy, the Most Famous Girl in the world, and 100 other girls.

[A]

Every week on this show we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cults in culture, from Christian nationalism to Renaissance fairs. To try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a culture, but is it really?

[E]

And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? Is it a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the out?

[D]

Because in this increasingly terrifying modern landscape, cultish behavior and cult like tactics. Tactics can be used in ways that range from harmless to deeply dangerous. It can be as benign as calling the top player in chess a grandmaster. Or as horrific as drinking milk straight from the udder in the name of purity.

[A]

Wait, I'm so sorry, I have to interrupt for a second. Yesterday I tried my friend's breast milk.

[D]

Oh, wait, wait, Amanda, I brought this up. Two days ago, I asked a room full of men if they had ever tried breast milk like I went through. And three. Yes. Five, no.

[A]

Why were you in a room with so many men?

[C]

Thank you so much for asking. I was at a wedding.

[E]

Oh, oh, okay.

[A]

You were like, cut her out. No, honestly, the question stands. But it tasted like the milk at the bottom of a bowl of Honey Nut Cheerios.

[D]

Really?

[C]

Ooh, yeah, I can see that.

[E]

Wait, very important question. Ice or no ice?

[A]

I considered icing it, but then I was like, no, I want to try

[D]

it the way from the house, from the tea.

[A]

Okay, yeah, yeah. No, I didn't, like, suckle my friends. Utter as a. But she did trickle into cortado cup and. Yeah, and I took a shot and, you know, dude, great.

[D]

April Fool's prank. Drink unlocked, bring someone a matcha, and then afterwards, tell them that you put your breast milk in it. See how they react.

[A]

Oh, yeah. See how they react. And honestly. Yeah, It's a Rorschach test for friendship. The point is, today we're covering the cult of Maha. Maha stands for Make America Healthy Again. It is a movement promoting seemingly good causes like children's health, cleaner food, and personal medical freedom. Freedom. All the while insidiously brushing aside science, putting public health at risk, and demonizing experts, including the tall drink of water. I actually don't know how tall Dr. Mike is. Dr. Mike is our guest today. And holy shit, who would ever demonize him? If you've ever seen an absolute snack of a man in medical attire on your Instagram feed spitting bars about misinformation and what we can do about it, then you have probably drooled over this man. Dr. Mike is a leading voice in digital health communication and the most followed doctor on social media.

[E]

Speaking of Hot Dr. Mike, you know who I heard is hot? Who?

[B]

RFK. Wrong.

[D]

No, go look it up.

[B]

Go look it up.

[A]

It's a thing.

[C]

To prove you wrong, I'm opening a private tab.

[A]

Go look it up.

[D]

One of my favorite things to talk about with people is RFK's sex addiction and how he chronically cheats on his wives. His ex wife ended her life after finding a diary in which he detailed cheating on her with over 30 women. RFK then came out and said, I'm a sex addict. Like, that's why I did it. And we don't need to include this. But the craziest thing, they buried her body with her family, and then the Kennedy estate, like, made a huge fuss about it. And I think they fact check me, they had to exhume her body and move it into the Kennedy plot so that she could be buried with the rest of the Kennedy family after RFK again cheated on her with upwards of 30 women, as testified in his private journals. And they wouldn't let her rest with her own family members. Like, this shit is crazy.

[C]

Yeah, that sounds like someone who's had a parasite eat part of his brain.

[E]

The frontal lobe specifically. What's up with all these men cheating and keeping diaries? I hear that's what Klay Thompson did as well. I'm like, what's happening?

[A]

It's cult leader behavior. It is egomaniacal, unhinged cult leader behavior. But, yeah, no, he's not hot. He's brainworm eaten. And he clearly looks like someone who doesn't believe in sunscreen.

[E]

Yes, look at it.

[A]

Look at his skin.

[E]

I don't know. Listen, I think he's deplorable. And I've also seen this series of videos about him being like a sleep paralysis demon. And I get a huge kick out of those. But I'm just going to call a spade a spade. He may be a butter head. Okay. Back in my day, you know, that's what we called him. Hot bod. Brainless, not cute in the face.

[A]

I love, I love that we're immediately like himbo fying RFK Jr. But oddly, his appearance is among the least of his offenses. So in order to wrap our heads around the very complex cult of Maga, which we're going to do our very best to represent in just an hour long episode. It's structure, it's allure, recruitment tactics and problematic ideologies. It probably does make sense to begin with a proper analysis of the group's alleged leader, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

[C]

Robert Francis Kennedy Jr. Is an American politician, environmental lawyer, he's a conspiracy theorist and he's an anti vaccine activist currently serving as the 26th United States Secretary of Health and Human Services, a position he has held since 2025. He is also obviously a member of the Kennedy family, a son of Robert F. Kennedy and a nephew of US President John F. Kennedy.

[A]

Chelsea, could you maybe walk us through some of the most unsupported and cult leadery health claims that Robert F. Kennedy the Second has made?

[E]

Of course, gladly. One of the claims was that Covid was engineered to spare Jews and Chinese people. Ye.

[D]

Yeah, totally.

[E]

Yeah. Yep. He compared anti Covid public health measures to the Holocaust. Yep. He also said that the CIA had been planning for years to use a pandemic to end democracy and impose totalitarian control on the entire world. Right. Human made chemicals in the environment could be making children gay. That one is actually my favorite one.

[A]

If there are gay chemicals, I want to know what they are.

[D]

See, you can inhale them.

[E]

He also said that usage of antidepressants has led to school shootings. He said that fluoride in drinking water causes arthritis, bone fractures, bone cancer, IQ loss, neurodevelopmental disorders and thyroid disease.

[D]

That one has really reached the people.

[E]

Oh yeah, we're gonna get into it later, honey. He also said that they are the man putting 5G high speed broadband service to harvest our data and control our behavior.

[A]

Ooh, this is a great little syntax tactic thing to focus on whenever, sort of like anti science or feelings over facts type cult figures, disseminate their opinions. They often use this like general phrasing of they say which is conspiratorial, like who are they?

[E]

Who they? They?

[C]

Us versus them.

[D]

Can they stand up please?

[A]

No one loves they them pronouns more than a conspiracy theorist.

[C]

Literally.

[E]

Okay, so more into RFK jr's ridiculous claims. He also said that autistic children will never pay taxes, they'll never hold a job, they'll never play baseball, they'll never write a poem, they'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted. I love the baseball addition to that.

[A]

They'll never play baseball.

[C]

You could just put words together in any order you want.

[A]

Okay. Exactly. Nexium survivors, one of whom We've interviewed on this very show. In our Cult of Self Help episode, Sarah Edmondson often referenced Keith Ranieri's word salad. Like, if you state anything confidently enough, combining legitimate claims with utter nonsense, with words that sound scientific, with words that sound mystical, discerning, people give up because they don't know where to begin with you. And people who are already intrigued or full blown in will just also kind of tune you out. But listen to the confidence of the delivery and be like, yeah, sounds good.

[C]

It's called parrhea. It's a rhetorical ability to speak super candidly, but it doesn't even necessarily matter the content or the truth of what you're saying.

[A]

Parrhaecia.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Ooh.

[A]

The ancient Greek concept of frankness. Risky act of speaking truth to power or speaking filterless garbage to power. But, like, at a certain point, the two notions get scrambled.

[D]

Colloquially referred to as word vomit.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

Salad is, like, too healthy.

[D]

Yeah, Guys, it's the cult of Maha. We're only having word smoothies and word salad.

[E]

Okay, so this claim is the most famous one that he contracted a parasite which got into his brain and ate a portion of it and then died.

[C]

Most believable RFK claim.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A lot of the other claims had to do with his extramarital affairs. Like Iman mentioned at the top of this episode, he kept a diary that kind of documented all of his affairs he had while married to his second wife. He also was reportedly sexting a reporter while married to his third wife. He allegedly was sexually assaulting his babysitter. And he has discussed, ad nauseam, his past heroin usage.

[A]

I think I maybe have some insight now into, like, the diary keeping that all of these assailants do, despite the obvious risk of getting caught. Because the reason why that docu series, the Vow, about nxivm, the HBO docu series, had so much footage was because Keith Ranieri and his disciples were super into heavily documenting, like, every action of nxivm, every little humdrum daily activity in addition to the bigger events, I think because, like, megalomaniacal, cultish leader types want a record of their actions. I mean, part of me thinks he probably wanted his diary to be found or he wanted to admire it like a. Like Dexter admiring the blood slides full of his victim's blood.

[D]

I was literally going to say it reminds me of how serial killers will often, like, leave a signature so that they can get recognized for their work by those in the know, so that there's a way to connect all their crimes to one another for sure.

[A]

And clearly RFK Jr has not been held accountable at all for any of these actions. So like, yeah, it really worked out the way he probably wanted.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's a really good, like, if I put all my cards on the table, then nobody can call me out for anything because I've said it first, but in my own way. So get control of the narrative that way.

[A]

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[D]

of making history, let's get into a little bit of the history of the Cult of ma. So Maha, again, short for Make America Healthy Again, is a Trump era health movement now formally being implemented through HHS, the Health and Human Services under RFK Jr. Who frames it as a plan to overhaul America's food, health and scientific systems in response to chronic disease. So its official priorities, according to the HHS website, include removing petroleum based food dyes, changing dietary guidelines, reforming snap, investigating autism, and restoring trust in vaccine safety. And I want to really emphasize the quotation marks around restoring trust in vaccine safety.

[A]

In vaccine safety, the euphemisms are euphemisming.

[D]

But the movement's public facing leaders, including RFK Jr. Helped popularize Maha's critique of processed food, big Pharma and chronic illness policy. But at its most basic, Maha claims America is sick because corrupt institutions, pharmaceutical companies, food corporations and federal agencies have hidden or ignored the quote unquote root causes of disease. When I hear this, I'm just reminded of how slippery of a slope Maha can be, because every once in a blue moon a good point is made. Like there are a lot of unregulated chemicals in American food. And I think we can all agree that we do want to make the country healthy again, but by agreeing or but again. Yeah, the word again. I don't know why I even said again. When was it healthy? We want to make.

[A]

We want.

[D]

Oh my God. See, I just did it. We want America to be healthy. We want Americans to be healthy. But by agreeing with that.

[A]

What?

[D]

One statement, overarching claim, you then descend into madness. Like genuine madness. I literally just proved it myself. Yeah, yeah, you maddened fool. Yeah. I can't believe it. I know. Next I'm Going to be throwing away all of my store bought milk. I just can't believe it. I'm literally just thinking like one day you're like, wow, I really wish there weren't all these unregulated preservatives used to spray food before it reaches the grocery store. And the next day you're like, wow, they're putting autism in the water supply.

[C]

And that's really the missing piece is it's what happens when you try to investigate these problems without looking at any of the like, social or economic inequity that is causing them. So like when you're not actually looking at food deserts, when you're not actually looking at issues like pollution and the way in which those actually disproportionately affect the people of our country. And it feels like the worst effects of these issues, like the malnutrition, the not being able to afford food, like, I know that none of that concerns RFK or is what he cares about, like, he cares about it from a much more crunchy, convenient angle. And because of that, it's a much easier slope to all of this other bullshit because it's just like a catch all for all of his weird opinions.

[E]

Yes, Rhys, I was just gonna say it reminds me of the episodes we did on Erewhon and I believe the of Pilates. Is that what we're actually seeing is that Maha started from a good place, but it's like this wellness romantization and hyper consumerism and it's like everybody has this idea that they want something cleaner, but it quickly becomes just aesthetic and that's not what it should be about.

[C]

Yeah, I'm reminded a lot of homesteading where it's a lot more about a very idyllic lifestyle, but not actually about sustaining the communal ties or trying to achieve a kind of something like utopia, wherein having those things a bit available to you inherently would be possible.

[D]

Before we move on, can I ask a brave question? What is beef tallow?

[C]

It's just fat, I think.

[D]

Is it just fat? How did it receive the rebrand of the center?

[C]

Because it's like cottage and yeah, it's rendered fat.

[D]

Oh my God.

[C]

But we're saying because it's an occlusive. Any fat can be an occlusive.

[A]

So yeah, I think the Maha thing is like, first of all, health information is really intimidating. Who wants to read a peer reviewed study, really? That means the work of science communicators is so, so important. But measured science communicators often struggle to stand out against the like cult fear mongering and rah rah attitudes of Maha influencers, RFK junior types. And a broken clock is right twice a day. A broken clock is right twice a day. So they do have surface level messaging that makes a lot of sense. And here's the problem is that like scientists who know what's going on, like my mom and I talk about this all the time. My mom who's a cancer cell biologist, she acknowledges that this has certain ideas that most of us can get on board with, but they're not going to say the same thing about pro science people. So like what are we supposed to do?

[D]

Yeah, and there's such a like elitist exclusivity too to the idea that in order to be living the right way you need to only eat organic or only eat things that are sourced a specific ethical way. It's so expensive. It's not something that people who are often affected by poverty based health issues can even afford to buy into. So ultimately it's not even helping the people that are impacted the most by systemic imbalance when it comes to health in this country and what you're talking

[E]

about, Iman is some of the cultiest aspects of the Maha movement. It grabs people through legitimate frustrations. The American healthcare system is expensive, rush, confusing and often dismissive, especially towards women, people of color, disabled people, chronically ill people and parents desperate for answers. It borrows older crunchy ideas from the left like organic food as medicine and anti corporate wellness and then fuses them with right wing distrust of government, vaccines and public health agencies and science.

[A]

It literally is where? The horseshoe.

[E]

Absolutely. Absolutely right there. Some of my house health claims are that seed oils are toxic and causing chronic disease. Toxins in food, like food dyes and additives are primary drivers for illness. Vaccines are dangerous, dangerous, unnecessary or linked to autism. Chemo is more harmful than cancer itself. Supplements and detoxing can replace medical treatment. Raw milk, baby. That raw milk, do y' all know I saw in sprouts, I'm pretty sure I saw a bottle of raw milk being sold and I love sprouts but

[C]

I was like, listen, yeah, it's kind of everywhere now. And something else I'm seeing, that's funny, I saw, I saw a real the other day. I couldn't tell if it was satirical or not, but it was like life hack, boil your raw milk.

[E]

No.

[A]

What is that supposed to hack?

[C]

Not pasteurizing it.

[E]

Pasteurizing it. Pasteurization.

[C]

That just makes it regular milk.

[A]

Life hack, oat milk. Life hack Life hack.

[D]

Let's repackage something that already exists and

[A]

sell it to people.

[C]

Let's make the Doritos ourselves all track life.

[E]

Okay, so as one KFF health news piece put it, quote, the Maha movement capitalizes on many of the non conventional health concepts that have been darlings of the left. But in an environment of polarized topics, the growing prominence of leaders who challenge what they call the cult of science could lead to more public health confusion and division. And this is what entry to this cult looks like and how this cult preys on the vulnerable. A scared patient with a new diagnosis or mom who's worried about her autistic child navigating an understaffed, overwhelmed health care system that is draining their life savings. And it's like, no wonder people turn to alternative sources much in the way that cults offer alternative lifestyles for people who are looking to ultimately better themselves.

[A]

Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why, like, we can poke fun of and laugh at. I mean, I guess we've mostly just poked fun of and laughed at RFK Jr. But like, we can roast followers of this movement. But, like, who can really fault people too, too much? I'm saying that, but I really struggle. And yet I don't necessarily blame people who are seeking answers for some of their most urgent and pressing problems that are rooted in very real things.

[D]

I completely agree. I'm someone who struggles with chronic illness and autoimmune disease. I have gastroparesis and eosinophilic esophagitis, which are two, like, digestive illnesses that are truly like, hell on earth. And when I am at my most sick, I would do anything anyone told me just to feel relieved for a few hours. And that includes cutting out seed oils. That includes avoiding food groups that I previously knew to be entirely consumable and not the cause of my illness. I think, like, because holistic medicine really can be so life changing for people, it can be really hard to realize when you're toeing the line and when you finally cross it.

[A]

Totally.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And to like, bring it back to cult analysis. There are so many red flags already. There's a serious health upheaval happening in our culture right now, which creates the conditions for alternative solutions to emerge. Most of the people who are joining this movement in the most extreme way are people of some privilege. And that's like this myth about cult followers is that they're like, desperate, at the end of their rope, would follow anyone into the woods. But no, cults want people who have, have money and time and influence to spare. And it's really hard as a member of this movement to say like, oh, I agree with this, I agree with this, but I don't so much agree with this. You kind of have to buy into the whole lot in order to be accepted. Which I would argue that, like feeling accepted when you're going through something tough like raising a sick child or dealing with health issues yourself, feeling a sense of belonging probably feels just as good as finding medical solutions.

[E]

Amanda I want to kind of contextualize because there's been a lot of legislation that has been introduced recently on a national level and locally. And I just want to contextualize for our listeners what that looks like, because my best friend is an environmental lawyer and we talk about all the time the things happening in Louisiana specifically. But there has been a bill recently that was passed called La Maha, which is a, a brand specifically for Louisiana, and it's aimed to improve like public health, focused on the things that we were talking about like the food additives and clean living standards. And what we keep mentioning is the nuance that a lot of these bills miss. Because, Reese, just as you said, food access and these low income and rural communities, so like a lot of these people in south Louisiana are living in food deserts. And so you have this elitist standard, if you want, that you think people should be, I guess, subscribing to when they don't even have the access and the fact that what's healthy is being defined culturally and scientifically. So for a long time, like Southern black communities and indigenous groups like the Houma and the Lumbee were taught that soul food was unhealthy. And it was part of the problem when mainly that diet is comprised of beans and greens and grains. And so then you have to ask the question, it's not just about access, but who is deeming what these people are eating as unhealthy. So it comes from a very, very, very privileged place. And it's gross because, I mean, these bills have just been recently introduced, but by, I think June is when the deciding factor happens, if this is actually going to come into fruition.

[A]

Oh my God, thank you for contextualizing that. And also, this is why I think it's so important to talk about movements like this on this podcast, because, like, it's not just a group of worshipers in robes on a compound. This is show everywhere, including places you might not think to look. It's showing up in legislation, it's showing up in mom groups, it's showing up in algorithms, even among people who are not right wing or whatever. And so it's just important to notice the signs and notice where they come from, what's motivating them. So maybe we should get into talking about some of the kind of real world culty consequences and horror stories that have come of this culture.

[C]

So the most obvious horror story is vaccines. I know a Maha follower who told me when I told him that I was getting the COVID vaccine, that if I got leukemia from it, he would laugh. So that's how that's going. We've done a whole episode on Anti Vaxxers earlier this year that you can go and listen to. But According to the CDC, MMR vaccination rates among kindergarteners have fallen to about 92.5%, which is below the 95% threshold, which is needed to prevent outbreaks. And that decline has coincided with a sharp, sharp rise in measles cases. Who'd have thunk? Including more than 2, 200 cases in 2025, the highest levels seen in decades. This after the US declared measles completely eliminated in 2000. So, yeah, we're making America something again.

[E]

I don't think it's healthy.

[A]

We're making America measly again.

[C]

Literally making America measly. Mumpy eating out of canned food.

[A]

Raging mama.

[C]

Reuters reported that a 2025 through 2026. That's a long time South Carolina outbreak alone sickened 997 people, 932 of them unvaccinated, quarantine 874 students, and cost the state an estimated 2.1 million. Wow. Another horror story is what happens when, quote, unquote, doing your own research leads to rejecting modern science that has been been proven. The National Cancer Institute summarized that breast and colorectal cancer patients using alternative therapy as initial treatment were nearly five times as likely to die after a median of five years.

[A]

Real quick. Colorectal cancers are on the rise among people under 35 and are often diagnosed at a late stage because, like, doctors don't take us seriously. We're too young. Da da da. Like, we don't know how to recognize symptoms, but also like, we're not getting colonoscopies. And so I'm trying to get a colonoscopy this year.

[C]

Girls do it.

[D]

Wait, oh my God. Get ready with me to get a colonoscopy.

[A]

That so sounds like a. I love that.

[C]

And then there's policy. According to KFF, the Trump administration's 2026 budget proposal includes major cuts to core public health programs like the CDC and the NIH, while proposing $20.6 billion for a new new Mahal linked agency called the Administration for a Healthy America. Word Salad reporting from CBS News, says this new agency would take over and reduce funding for existing programs that track disease and manage chronic illness. So while the branding may be about making America healthier, the concern is really that the systems that are actually keeping people healthy are being scaled back at the same time.

[D]

Well, speaking of branding, let's talk a little bit about, well, influencers. Influencers are a major engine of the Maha ecosystem and they're often where the movement becomes persuasive and profitable. Many creators package health advice alongside affiliate links like and subscribe supplement lines, coaching programs and paid communities, which then turns fear into a pretty great revenue stream. The more alarming the claim, the more engagement it drives and the more products can be sold to fix the problem. Yeah, that sounds like the America I live in.

[C]

What's the craziest Maha related social media post each of us have seen as of late?

[E]

Ooh.

[A]

I mean, I have not so much had Maha rhetoric show up online for me as I have had it show up in real life. For example, some family members of mine are neighbors with an anti vax, Trump supporting evangelical lady who when you first meet her, looks kind of like a hippie. Like she loves watercolor and wind chimes, but it's so confusing because she's like hippie maga. That's Maha.

[C]

My culture is not your costume.

[A]

Okay, okay. Stop dressing like a slutty hippie if you're not gonna walk the walk.

[C]

Stop dressing like you love people. Like you want world peace.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, I think that Maha has really reached the people of Brooklyn in a very chic granola way. It's more so being peddled as make sure that you are downloading app to make sure that nothing you eat from chain restaurants has any seed oils in it. I don't know. I also think like other microwaves, it shows up. I'm sure we all notice like the big influence influx of emphasis on protein over the past year. It's now, it's now becoming fiber. I don't know if anyone noticed. And it's, it's tricky because you know, we were just talking about the rise in different types of rectal cancers. Fiber consumption is really important for young people. But again, it's that tricky line like when does it transcend from we should all just be mindful of naturally consuming fiber in our diets to we need to buy specialized products right Chelsea, what's

[A]

one of the wackiest Maha claims that you've experienced in the wild?

[E]

Okay, so here's the thing. I actually teetered a little bit two years ago when I was still living in la. I had a primary care physician and a homeopathic primary care physician. This person, which I loved her, she was trying to get me off of my Adderall and transition me into another one called Synapsin. And it's a peptide. So I got pulled into the world of peptides. And so now all I see on my timeline, which you all know it's under the Maha movement, are the peptides, these like compounded chemicals where they're still not FDA regulated. And it's just a whole bunch of people randomly going to these places, getting these chemicals and injecting themselves with it. It. So it's a crazy world. And I think the GLP1 was a slippery slope into that.

[C]

That's what I was gonna say. I actually don't have an example, but I think the GLP1 is a big component of the whole protein and fiber push of it all because nobody's eating enough. So everybody needs the protein and the fiber. And it really just emphasizes to me how much the priorities of this movement are about looking like a certain version of health or what this movement thinks healthy looks like. It's not actually about creating a world where people are healthier or feel more supported. And I think that that' again, portion of it is I want to go back to a time when people felt more pressured to look the way I want them to look. And I think that that's all it is, really.

[D]

Oh God. GLP1. Speaking of things that people are putting in their bodies that have not been tested on the long term side effects of perpetual infinite use, GLP1s on people that don't have diabetes or PCOS. That's one of the biggest risks I

[A]

really Want to cover. GLP1s in 2027. We're going to have to be so delicate about it. So sorry, delicate. But you know, we are in our take no prisoners era. It sounds like a cult. Gone are the weeks when it was back to back Trader Joe's and whatever the fuck. Now we're out here doing Trump, ladies and Manosphere. Okay, so I think it is high time that we transition into our interview with the one, the only Dr. Mike. We want to know, how does a movement that starts with fair questions about food, chronic illness and a broken health care system end up ushering measles back into our Lives Mama. Make America Monthly Again. To help us sort the legitimate concerns from the extremely dangerous and culty conclusions, we are joined by Dr. Mike, a practicing physician and one of the Internet's most recognizable voices on medical misinformation. Culties. Did you know that there is an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your front door? And this is no ordinary THC company. They've found ways to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. They also have beverages. I'm talking about mood.com you can get 20% off your first [e-mail] with promo code CULT. Thanks to Mood, you can forget one size fits all supplements that only get you high. These are functional gummies. Delicious, tailored to your desires and needs and optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes. I am so in love with their mind. Magic Gummies. They're for focused, deep work and enhanced creativity. Everything ships directly to your door. No dispensary lines, no awkward conversations. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by 100100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with Code Cult. So head to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for, and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code Cult when you check out and save 20% off your first order. Try it [e-mail] Good sleep is everything.

[E]

That's why Ollie's Science Back Support is

[A]

made with a blend of melatonin and L theanine for both kiddos and coffee grownups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help your

[E]

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[A]

[e-mail] that's o l l y.com Dr. Mike Wow. We are all so starstruck. But we will not allow that to compromise the integrity of this interview. Welcome to Sounds Like a Cult.

[B]

Wow. Such high praise. I appreciate that. But I'm starstruck because I'm excited to learn from your wisdom and perhaps share some of my experiences from this wacky world I find myself in.

[A]

Oh my God. A bit of mutual love bombing. We love that. Could you introduce yourself for our listeners who dare not know and explain your relationship to the Cult of Make America healthy again.

[B]

I'm Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky, better known as Dr. Mike especially in the world of social media. I'm a board certified family medicine physician that focuses on prevention instead of just curing and really try and spend half of my time educating the world for the huge amount of misinformation they're being dealt every single day, both on social media, traditional media, television, etc. With the primary driver that is currently head of Health and Human Services, RFK Jr. And the organization known as MAHA Make America Healthy Again 0 are called

[A]

the Antidote in this, this godforsaken world. So one thing about cults is that they often operate on the promise that insiders have access to some kind of transcendent wisdom, a promise that is actually often based on fallacious logic or lies. From your perspective, what are some of the core values that people in the Maha world, including otherwise smart and decent people, are holding onto right now? And where does the actual science land on these claims?

[B]

Yeah, I think the entire Maha movement started with some great principles. Trying to keep kids as healthy as possible, realizing that we're facing a chronic disease epidemic, making sure that we get people out into sunlight, moving around, spending time outdoors, not just fixed on our devices. The fact that we have tremendous healthcare spending in our nation, one of the most in the world, if not the most in the world, and yet the outcomes that we get get are far from good. And then on top of it, the lack of access for many people who want to participate in our healthcare system and unfortunately face barriers. So the Maha movement really had a upswing with all of these true issues circling their lives, because that's the reality they face. And I'm not one to disprove that. I think that is the true reality. I see my patients struggle with this all the time. The issue with the Maha framing of it all is twofold. One, one, when they titled the movement Maha, they say that they want to make Americans or make America healthy again. And what I don't understand as a doctor is where is that again? When were we healthier than we are today? Do we want to go back to a time prior to the polio vaccine, to the time prior to antibiotics, where if you stub your toe, that could be a death sentence? So I don't quite know what the again portion of the Maha titling refers to. That's something I've yet to get an answer on. And then the second port, as you mentioned in your opening, this moral superiority of hidden wisdom, that they know something that everyone else doesn't know and anyone that disagrees with them means that they're lying. It's further proof of this conspiracy that's happened. I think those are the two major through lines within the Maha organization that I think ultimately work against what they're trying to achieve. And that's what's most disappointing to me because all those individuals that want to be healthy, that want their children to be healthy, I want that for them. But the things that they're advocating for and the way they're going about it is actually going against those goals.

[D]

So not all modern day cults do have a clear leader. But you already mentioned Maha's lord and savior, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who I guess does kind of seem to fit the role of cult leader, in addition, I guess to certain influencers who do make up a lot of the online evangelizing and recruiting. But my question for you is what qualities do you think make RFK Jr just so influential? And do you think they mere cult leader qualities in any capacity?

[B]

Yeah, it's tough to say I even would hesitate to call him a cult leader. It's almost this cult like personality. And the reason why I make that distinction is because I don't want people to feel shut out from this conversation. In the discussion of Maha and all the topics that we're bound to get into today. I want to feel like we're bringing people into the fold with transparency, with honesty, because those are all the things that Secretary Kennedy and the other members of the Maha movement, they preach, they say that they espouse. But I want to uncover the fact that that is far from reality. But I do think that there is a cult like presence there. Because what's interesting about Secretary Kennedy is he had this popular start, probably driven by the political name and the fame that came along with that. Then he was an environmental lawyer advocating on behalf of citizens who want a cleaner environment. He came up during a time when there was already an incredibly high level of governmental distrust following the COVID 19 pandemic. So all of these ingredients of were simmering to the top. You have the distrust of the government. He feels like an everyman who's advocating against large corporations, against governmental control. And that's why you see this interesting flip where initially he ran for president as a Democrat, and when that was becoming not so successful, he swapped independent only to join the Republican administration of President Trump. And it goes to show that the way that he's actually garnered so much support for the Maha movement is that he's transcended partisan politics and combined a lot of these different principles that each party espouses and brought them into the fold. What also makes me believe that he has a bit of a cult like Persona is that anytime you criticize something that he says, people believe that he is the only one capable of telling the truth. And that is not the case in any reality. Even when I speak, I believe I should be questioned, I should be challenged. In fact, recently I had Jesse Eisenberg on my podcast and he was asking me about chat chatgpt and medical advice and he thought I was gonna say that I hate it. I surprised him and said, I don't mind when patients do it. And he said he was ready to challenge me. And I was excited for that because I think we should all be challenging each other. If you wanna have good ideas, you need to have them challenged. In fact, that's kind of the cornerstone of science. When we wanna put forward a hypothesis, an idea, a theory, we need to try our best to disprove that idea in order to see, see if it can stand on its own. And I don't think what Secretary Kennedy does is science because he believes if you disagree with him, you're part of the problem. Instead of being open minded and listening to his critics and allowing that discourse to make all of our ideas come together and function more optimally.

[A]

I love so much of what you're saying a the idea of bringing people into the conversation by hedging our language, saying cult like presence, cult of personality, cult leader energy. You know, we hedge on this podcast, podcast through humor rather than precision or like measured professionalism. But I think they're both valid ways in. But thank you for that. And also I loved that conversation between you and Jesse Eisenberg. It was such a beautiful representation of like non toxic masculine discourse. And I was like, this is required viewing. Well, not required. This is gently if you want to prescribe viewing, recommended viewing.

[E]

So Dr. Mike, we often talk about how when it comes to call cults, the ideas are sometimes less important to members than the community that surrounds them. So in your opinion, what are some of the Maha movement's most harmful ideas? Where do they come from? And what aspects of the community allow these ideas to gain traction?

[B]

Yeah, so usually the initial ideas of these types of movements start with good intentions. In fact, we've seen this play out in medical media. The medical talk shows when I was going through my medical training was like the Dr. Oz Show. And initially that started off as a great program educating people about heart health, heart healthy diets, ways to incorporate exercise into your everyday life. And that was the early seasons, later seasons, transcended into how your zodiac sign impacts your heart health. So it's like they always start with a little bit of accuracy and a little bit of science and then it transcends into something else. And I've seen that with the Maha movement where they will rightfully point out that obesity is a huge problem in America, that chronic disease, pre diabetes, diabetes, hypertension, all of these issues are huge problems in our nation and we need to desperately get them under control. Especially when it comes to thinking about the quality of life, the length of life, and the healthcare dollars that are continually ballooning to truly a level that's going to be unsustainable and the system will undoubtedly brave. So I think about these ideas that they start off with and we can take like ultra processed foods as an example. Now if we look at data between ultra processed foods and whole foods, we see that generally people who consume ultra processed foods to a higher level will have worse health outcomes. They will over consume those ultra processed foods because of the way that they're designed. Now, the way that these foods are designed is done so in order to get you to eat more of the foods. Was this done maliciously in order to get you to be sick? In order for you to develop a cancer, heart disease? No, it's much more simple than that. It's right in front of all of us. The companies want to sell you more of their ultra processed food. And if they can make it in a way where it's leading you to not feel satiated, if it's addictive in nature, they're absolutely going to make more money. And at the end of the day, that's what private companies do. That's sort of their goal. So we start with the notion of, of ultra processed foods seem to be on the whole less healthy, that if we over consume them, they create a problem and then it starts finding its way to who's to blame? Well, it's the companies to blame. Well, the companies are poisoning us. Well, they're poisoning us to keep us sick in order to make a profit. Anytime we see seed oils on a packaging, that automatically means this food is awful. Anytime we see any kind of metal component in a food, we automatically assume it's awful. But that type of thinking is not very logical because a lot of times when it comes to thinking about one's whole life, there are so many risk factors at play. There are so many variables in our lives that change how we feel, how we live, how long we live, the quality of our lives. And this could be from something as simple as if you have your shades open in the morning and you are exposed to early sunlight, whether you go for walks, whether you have a support system, you have barriers to accessing healthcare, all of these factors matter, but they simplify into something that creates an us versus them mentality. And when you start creating this us versus them mentality, instead of creating solutions and thinking about it in a nuanced way, you have a recipe for disaster. Especially in the day and age of social media, where algorithms love villainization, they love extreme content, and that's really given credence power to the Maha movement in a way where we've completely neglected nuance. We've lost sight of the fact that, hey, injecting peptides, chemicals that are not well tested, could be bad. And yet Secretary Kennedy's all about them. And when we have really great evidence, decades worth of evidence across many nations, many continents for vaccines, also chemicals, he suddenly thinks these are bad. And it's very clear that we're not keeping any sort of logical consistency here. And that's the flag that I love to read for those who support the Maha movement, because ultimately, I don't think the Maha movement is doing what they think it is.

[A]

The hypocrisy is really quite something. It reminds me of. I used to work in the beauty and wellness industry, and there was a girl who would like, not take ibuprofen for pain because it was like the Western medicine, but her face was full of fillers.

[D]

See?

[E]

Crazy modern medicine.

[B]

But look, here's the thing. As an individual, I just want to give you my mindset on it. I'm curious how you reflect on it as a doctor. If a patient tells me that, I actually don't think that's problematic because everyone sets arbitrary lines in their lives, whether it's who they want to date or what kind of food they like to eat. So, like, everyone has their own preferences. It's when they start becoming activist and advocating for it. Not truthfully, not saying I don't like taking it, that's fine. But it's dangerous to take ibuprofen. It's much safer to do filler. And that's when I start developing a problem with it. Because now you're misinforming people.

[A]

That's an essential distinction. Genuinely, like, do whatever you want, but do not evangelize to me.

[B]

And I'm sure you saw the Tylenol autism press conference, which was an absolute disaster. Oh, my God.

[E]

Wait, so, Dr. Mike, this is an aside, but so you've touched on Your thoughts on seed oils, peptides and vaccines. I'd love to know your thoughts on like, the newest legislation that's been introduced to removing fluoride in water.

[B]

I think folks have developed, especially in the MAHA group, this chemophobia, where anything that sounds like a chemical means it's automatically terrible for you. But there's actually two principles that we need to keep in mind when we're evaluating the safety of a chemical. One is hazard, one is risk. The simplest way to explain this is a shark is hazardous, right? No one wants to hang out with a great white shark. But the risk of you having a shark attack if you're doing not in the ocean is zero. Unless you're watching one of those 911 medical dramas where the shark escapes onto the highway and floating all over the place. So it's as much about whether or not this chemical is hazardous, but what is your exposure to said chemical, what is the route of exposure and what is the dosage of that exposure? And what we fail to realize is we have all sorts of exposures in our everyday lives with certain chemicals, chemicals that are totally normal, that our bodies are well accustomed to. And it doesn't necessarily mean that when you hear chemical, even a specific chemical like fluoride, it automatically means it's bad. The research that folks grab onto about fluoride and its effect on developing minds and children is largely tied to extremely high doses of fluoride and not what is added routinely to drinking water at several locations across the the United States. And yet it has tremendous benefit for the development of proper dental hygiene. Dental health, and those factors matter a lot, especially when you think about the disproportionate impact on those who are facing difficult socioeconomic times. And that's the reality that we need folks to focus on. If you don't want to have fluoride in your water, you by all means, especially as a wealthy person who are not impacted by fluoride, you can go buy bottled water, which by the way is not necessarily better. There's issues with plastics and bottled water, bacteria, all sorts of other things that can come up. But you can get bottled water, you can get a filter to remove the fluoride and allow the public health measures to help as many people as possible. Because the reality of healthcare is there's always a trade off. No matter what treatment we're instituting, medication, surgery, therapy, there are always pros and cons. And that's difficult to assess for an individual, but even more difficult to assess across a public health spectrum. That doesn't mean we give up and don't do it. We do it and we try and do it as best as we can with informed consent, educating people on the research that needs to be done. And actually, I think that's the strongest word of all of this. We need to do the research. When Secretary Kennedy has cut hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars for research, research surrounding treatments, preventing things like pancreatic cancer, als, I mean, diseases that are catastrophic if one of our family members, God forbid, is to develop it. And yet instead of saying, you know, he is questioning fluoride, great, do a study on it, fund the study. Let's talk about those results of that study. But that's not what he's actually interested in doing. He's interested in scoring political points, getting those PR wins, talking about titanium dioxide being removed from Skittles instead of fighting the real barriers that truly improve public health. Getting people insurance coverage, making sure they have transportation to their appointments, getting them stable work, mental health care access, getting all of these pharmaceutical industries in line so that they can act more transparently, that they can actually explain why they're choosing certain prices for their medications, have them be even more stringent with their research, come down on conflicts of interest equally hard, as you do for the financial industry, as you do the supplement industry. So as you could tell, I get really excited about this.

[A]

Totally. Oh, my God. Thank you for that. And your point about the Maha movement, infusing words that sound chemically with this strong emotional charge is a hallmark of cultish language and transitions kind of perfectly into our next question. Yes.

[E]

Are there any specific rituals or language that signal to you that someone is deep in the Maha mindset?

[B]

I think when we start bringing up terms like all natural, detoxing these words traditionally signal that you are part of this movement, not necessarily part of it, but at least going down into that rabbit hole. And the reason why All Natural has this bit of Maha conspiratorial mindset to it is that there is an assumption, a false assumption, that just because something is natural means it's safe, or just because something is natural means it's better than the synthetic version of this chemical, of this product, of this food. And that's also not true. So that's where that nuance needs to come in. And we need to leave our assumptions at the door and try our best to understand what reason research shows, what research is valuable, what research we need to take with a bit of grain of salt because it's not accurate, and fight back against all of these labeling and words that essentially someone else is trying to sell us. Because if we look at packaging nowadays, there's so much fear mongering that goes on when you're just walking down your local grocery store aisle from non GMO gluten free, like I saw the other day a chicken coffee, like an actual just piece of chicken with no bread around it and it was labeled gluten free or salt that was non gmo. And it's like it's not an organism, you don't need a GMO sticker on it. But this is that type of marketing that is almost like a dog whistle for those in the Maha community.

[C]

So you've already touched on this a good bit. But distrust of doctors has given way too many modern day cults that we have covered from like anti vaxxers to multi level marketing people. But one really complicated thing about cults cultish groups is that there is always a grain of truth to their thinking. So what are those real problems with the American healthcare system that the Maha movement is tapping into? You've named a few already. And what do you think would actually fix those problems in a non culty way?

[B]

Yeah, I think it starts with not enough access to insurance coverage, no time that your doctor spends with you, or at least not enough time that the doctor spends time with you, difficulty in accessing primary care, the fact that we spend so much money in our country on healthcare and yet so many people can't access it. And the ones who do can end up facing bankruptcy because of surprise billing or issues related to their insurance, being out of network and all these games that these large corporations play at our expense. Now all of these issues are real and they require simple boring solutions. It's almost like when people ask me about longevity cause it's such a hot topic right now. Like everyone wants to live forever, everyone is Brian Johnson reincarnated. And the reality is the things that help you live longer and a better quality of life are the boring things that grandma told us about. Sleeping well, making sure you're getting enough, exercising. It doesn't even matter what kind of exercise you do. You want to do Pilates, CrossFit, Weight Lift Marathon, it doesn't matter as long as you're moving, that is the win. And then eating a wide variety of fruits and vegetables, a plant focused diet with some lean cuts of meat if you prefer. So that is what gives you the best bang for your buck. And obviously avoiding bad habits that we know are detrimental to health, smoking, excessive alcohol consumption, et cetera so that is the cornerstone of longevity. And yet that is not what the majority of social media or podcast bros will tell you. They will try and sell you the shiny miracle promise of a red light bed, hyperbaric oxygen chamber, cold plunge, a cold sack to hold your genitals in while you walk into the sauna. I'm not making this up, by the way. This is a new world that we're living in.

[A]

I was not ready to hear cold sack at all.

[D]

Wait, is that because, like, he is bad for male sperm? Like is. So you need a cold sack to protect the skin, supposedly.

[B]

Well, it's not supposedly. Heat has a negative impact on sperm for sure. That's actually why the scrotum is descended from your body. Keeps the sperm cells away from the heat of your body so they're a couple of degrees cooler. But that is not why they talk about this cooling sack. They talk about it because they worry it impacts their testosterone production or their general health. And we don't have evidence for that. And that's the reality of a lot of these biohackers, where they out pace the level of evidence to try and get ahead of things, which if you really hold them to the claims that they've made across their careers, the huge majority of them turn out to be wrong and incorrect. But they bank on you forgetting all of those claims and just remembering the one time that they were right. But if you want to choose a good person to listen to for health advice, you much rather take the person who is more often right than they are wrong wrong, then more often wrong than they are right. Because health is about limiting bad things, not trying to find the one miracle thing and getting a bunch of bad things to happen to you. So to me, this shiny object that all these biohackers try and sell you is really a distraction. That's the micro level. If we zoom out to the macro level, Secretary Kennedy, instead of focusing on getting mental health care covered, family leave as the part of part of medical care, good reproductive rights secured for our nation, instead of focusing on all of these important issues that dramatically improve quality of life are preventive, not reactive. Like they often talk about our system being all about cures, not about prevention. Vaccines are prevention. But he has some sort of weird qualm about them and is anti vaccine. Oh, and going after Big Pharma when they're acting inappropriately. Pharmacy benefit managers is a whole other book of worms to open. So instead of focusing on all these boring things that require work, he tries to sell us the Shiny stuff, the seed oils, the beef tallow, the titanium dioxide and Skittles, that all red dyes are responsible for every behavioral problem in children. And that's just not the reality. And there might be some bits of evidence in there to support some of those things, but it's not the huge problem. So we're getting some of these PR wins, but at the expense of actually making profits progress. And when it comes to making us healthier, we need to invest in innovation. And the exact opposite is happening. We're having a cutback on innovation. We're losing the most brilliant minds in our country that are going abroad because they're losing all their grants. I personally know at least a half dozen scientists whose labs have closed and they had to relocate outside of the US because their research is no longer being funded. So I don't know how one can claim that you're trying to make America healthy when you're focusing on the shiny object, not going after the big wins and cutting back. The one thing that can give us hope for creating a healthier future, from

[D]

defunding real scientific innovation to removing the coating off of Skittles and apparently cold sacks for your balls while you sauna. I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be letting go of that. What do you think is the number

[B]

one, Is that gonna be the title?

[D]

I'm just like so shook by this. I'm trying to imagine the kind of man who makes that kind of investment in his future. What do you think is the number one cultiest thing about Maha? Like if you had to pinpoint just one belief or worst case scenario?

[B]

I think it's the hypocrisy that they believe, that they have this unique wisdom that lead them to be very strong skeptics of Big Pharma, governmental agencies, the failing medical system. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. The bad thing actually comes from the fact that they do it unilaterally, that they don't then have some of that skepticism for their own in group and things that their group supports. So it's good to be skeptical of Big Pharma. I advise it. I encourage all my residents that I train in my hospital to be skeptical. But I don't tell them just to be skeptical of Big Pharma. You also need to be skeptical of the supplement world, all of these natural miracle promise formulas that RFK swears that he loves and enjoys. So I think it needs to be bi directional, it needs to be fair and it needs to be honest. Because if we look at the pharmaceutical industry, while I am skeptical of them, and they've certainly done us a disservice with the opioid epidemic and all these other issues over the years, they at least have to prove their medications work. They have to prove some sort of safety profile. They have to do interaction checks to show how these medications interact with others. And guess what? If they do something bad, their profits are at stake. So they have some sort of liability. You have someone to come after. But in the supplement world, where these supplement companies open and close, it seems like week in and week out, there is no liability. There is no proof that needs to happen in order to make a supplement. I can right now make whatever formula I want, bottle it up right here, put it in a nice can, and say this is equivalent health benefit to cold sacking in the sauna. And suddenly people might buy it, you know, so you just, you need to be honest about it.

[C]

Yeah. And, you know, I think that that comparison right there really just sums up the wide variety of insidious ways that this movement can get to you. Like, no matter where you are, no matter what you like to do, Maha will find a way to make you feel like you're not being healthy enough. So I guess my question for you is it's pretty likely that all of us know somebody who's in deep. If we have a friend or family member who is deep into Maha, maybe they just wanted to start eating healthier, fell down a rabbit hole. How do you recommend talking to them about it without pushing them further in?

[B]

Yeah, I think you have to lead with empathy and understanding. What I like to do, and I feel like I've done this at baseline line ever since childhood, is be curious about other people. And when someone has a unique belief that you disagree with, if you go into a conversation trying to persuade that individual to change their mind, even if you have good intentions in doing so, the odds of you being effective in doing that are quite low. The best ways to get someone to be open minded to see your point of view is to also be open minded and see their point of view and see where their logic comes from and be curious about that. You know, I did this Jubilee surrounded debate format a couple of times, and even though all those people disagreed with me, some of them hate the healthcare system, maybe even hated doctors. Afterwards, we had productive conversations. Some of them asked for selfies, some of them changed their minds after those debates. And it happened because instead of talking like doctor and patient or doctor and non expert expert, we talked like humans, we were both genuinely curious in one another. And the more you approach it in that way, I think the more successful you can be.

[A]

What if you, like, got on their level in terms of, like, conspiratorial whispering and you were like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Wait, you know what I've heard about. There's, like, this supplement that you can put in your water. It's called, like, fluoride. I don't know. And it's really, like. It's kind of, like, controversial, but, like, that's why we like it. And, like, I don't know why it gets banned now. Teeth, like, really?

[B]

I like this. Reverse psychology.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I hear it's like, it could make your teeth, like, amazing. Like, what do you think? Like, fluffy.

[B]

Definitely a strategy worth studying.

[A]

Thank you. I'm gonna give it a go. Okay, so, Dr. Mike, before we let you go, we're gonna play a little game with you. It's a new game for Sounds like a cult called Claims Core. So we're gonna read you a series of. Of health claims, and you're going to have to guess whether each claim was made by a Maha influencer or a notorious cult leader from history. Oh, okay, the first one goes like this. Mental illness and physical illness are caused by spiritual trauma and can be cured through our methods, not medicine.

[B]

Oh, it feels Maha.

[A]

It does, doesn't it? But instead, that is a Church of Scientology claim.

[B]

Oh, is there overlap there? I don't. I don't even know. I'm not familiar enough.

[A]

Oh, I'm sure I don't know.

[C]

They're powering their speed runs with, like, extra protein and all the. All the gym bro stuff. Okay, next one. Nicotine pouches can combat Alzheimer's or adhd.

[B]

I think I even know who may have said this. Is it Tucker Carlson?

[C]

It so would be Tucker Carlson, wouldn't it? He loves those things. No, it's Jillian Michaels, who's technically a Maha influencer, but also a cult leader in our opinion, as we've covered her on our Biggest Loser episode.

[B]

I feel like she did an appearance on his show. I feel like it was close.

[C]

No, definitely,

[A]

you get a point.

[D]

And that sounds like a Tucker. So onion water should be tried before over the counter medications, like Tylenol.

[B]

Well, it has to be recent because Tylenol wasn't a thing in the ancient times, so I'm going to say Maha.

[D]

Correct. That was Maha influencer. Diary of a Crunchy Mop. Wow.

[B]

Well, the crunchy mom thing is interesting. It goes to show How? Right now, obviously the Maha movement is quite libertarian republican, but it used to be on the Democratic side. So it's interesting how the movement has sort of. I don't even know if fractured is the right word. Kind of coalenced.

[A]

Coalesced.

[B]

Yeah, coalesced. Coalesced.

[E]

Coalesced.

[B]

Sorry, English as a second language here. Struggling.

[A]

No? Yeah, no, you're doing amazing, sweetie. I mean, when I hear crunchy mom, maybe, maybe 20 years ago someone would have thought of like a divine, feminine, hippie, left wing girly. But now when I hear crunchy mom, I think maga.

[E]

Okay, so the next one dying is not the end. It's a revolutionary act or a transition to a better existence.

[B]

Okay, this feels Egypt Pharaoh days. Because they believed in the afterlife in historical context.

[E]

Yeah, it is. Cult leader. It's from the People's Temple cult.

[A]

Jim Jones.

[B]

What era is that?

[A]

The seventies. Next claim. Yoga and meditation alone can cure serious diseases and eliminate the need for medical treatment. Cult leader or Maha.

[B]

I mean, that's Maha for sure. And I'm trying to see who would say that. Yoga. I don't want to get in trouble saying someone's name.

[C]

So who is that?

[A]

You don't have to. Yeah, I mean you added that dimension to the game. It's totally unnecessary. But that was actually a claim made by the Bikram Yoga cult. I don't know if you've seen that.

[B]

I did watch that Netflix documentary on it and it was creepy.

[A]

Indeed.

[C]

Next one. You can purify your body and mind through extreme fasting and isolation.

[B]

Oh, this feels like Wim Hof.

[C]

It does feel like Wim Hof. It is not Wim Hof. It is a cult leader. It is the Love has One cult.

[E]

Oh, okay, next one. All of your maladies, from self esteem to sadness are caused by parasites.

[B]

By parasites. It feels like there's gonna be some ivermectin tie or something. So it feels Maha.

[E]

Definitely Maha influencer. It's Kim Rogers, the self proclaimed worm queen.

[B]

Oh, worm queen.

[C]

Great, great. That exists. Love that.

[D]

Okay, our final claim. Colloidal silver and alternative remedies can heal the body and protect against disease.

[B]

Oh, this feels like that naturopath dude on YouTube. I'm gonna say Maha.

[D]

That was the Love has Won cult.

[A]

Again, lots of overhead.

[B]

What is that cult? Because it sounds so lovely, like I want to support it.

[C]

It's the Galactic Federation of Light new religious movement. This lady, Amy Carlson. Mother God. Just, you know, it's pretty run of the mill.

[A]

Yeah, Mother God. Yeah, yeah. But this game is interesting because it just goes to show how if you pac the same ideas under a cult leader aesthetic versus like a mainstream Maha aesthetic, then suddenly it seems worse. But actually it's all kind of the same.

[B]

Yeah, that's the thing with these cult leaders. You have to remember that. It's like if you want to make a good decision for your health, look for the evidence, not the charisma.

[A]

T. Dr. Mike, thank you so much for joining this interview. What a thrill. If people want to keep up with you and your mission, where can they find you?

[B]

We are Dr. Mike on every platform. I should have come up with a more interesting name for our channels, but it's self titled. And the biggest takeaway that I'd love for folks to get from our conversation is that I and the healthcare industry are partly to blame for the rise of Maha. We've had a lot of failures in not giving enough time to our patients, in creating a system that doesn't keep them as the top priority in feeling like we didn't need to be there to answer their questions on certain platforms, especially social media. And as a result, we've created these. These vacuums and a distrust that has led people to seek answers elsewhere and in this case happens to be in the wrong place and ultimately going to harm them. So I hope we can find a way to seek understanding, bring folks into the fold, and ultimately overcome this tremendous health challenge that's before us.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[C]

You.

[A]

All right, y'?

[E]

All?

[A]

Out of our three cult categories. Live your life, watch your back and get the out. Which do we think the cult of Maha falls into? Should we say it on the count of three?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We might all have different answers, but okay. One, two, three.

[C]

Get the fuck out.

[D]

Get the fuck out.

[C]

Amanda, are you not sure? Did we all. Do you want to stay?

[A]

No. The cult of Maha. Get the the fuck out in its final boss form. Get the fuck out. I was thinking like, if we really want to divide because it is natural for the human mind in times of crisis and tumult or whatever to like start dividing into us versus them, splitting, whatever. But I'm just like, if you want to demonize someone, demonize the profit driven companies, not the government. Or I mean, demonize this government. But like, I don't know, it's so upside down and backwards and twisted. I think it has to be a get the fuck out even. Even if some of the intentions are pure and some of the needs that it's attempting to fill are real.

[D]

I also think Maha get the fuck out. And in a lot of ways, holistic medicine. Get the fuck in. I think that there's so much to be said about the ways in which we can supplement our health and the ways in Western medicine with Eastern medicine and alternative solutions. Like, I really do think those two things, looking at your body and your mind, mind holistically, as like connected parts of the self, addressing that injunction with Western medicine and health is so important. But those that take advantage of that and then toe the line and dip too far into conspiracy, that's when you need to get the out.

[C]

Yeah. If I can make one final point, be nice to your doctors. And I think it's indicative that we need systemic changes for the ways in which, like, you know, cult of medical school, the ways in which our doctors are treated. Because Dr. Mike's number one piece of medical advice for people I saw in another interview interview is to build a good relationship with your primary care physician. And these doctors, the ones that are really good are the ones that are empathetic. And unfortunately, that also means that they burn out way too fast. So I think that treating this as not a human issue is also part of the problem.

[A]

Ooh, hot tip. Chelsea, you got, you got anything?

[E]

No, I, I, I'm just remaining my same from the beginning. It's get the fuck out.

[A]

Okay, let's go.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Well, well, that's our show.

[E]

Thanks so much for listening.

[C]

Stick around for a new cult next

[D]

week, and in the meantime, stay culty,

[C]

but not too culty.

[B]

It'll work.

[C]

It'll work out.

[A]

Sounds like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the podcast. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel, Reese Oliver, Chelsea Charles, and Iman Harirukia. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Master Overthinking Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network, Studio71. And be sure to follow the Sounds like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult pod. Or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult. This Father's Day when you ship UPS Air at the UPS Store, your items arrive on time with your money back

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