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- [00:00]
Amanda Montell
This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online. I am a long time Squarespace user. It is a household name for a reason. Setting up a stunning Squarespace website took about 30 minutes. Squarespace Payments makes it really easy to get set up and sell anything on your website. Another thing that really makes Squarespace stand out is its design intelligence which combines decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology. And hey, let's say you're just trying to create a decent landing page that pops up first when people google your name. Squarespace is great for that too because it has fast and integrated SEO tools. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode of Sounds Like a Cult is proudly sponsored by Article I recently made over my back deck with some article patio furniture and oh my God, I'm now spending time in the Sunshine. Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long lasting home at an unbeatable price. Article offers a curated range of mid century, modern, coastal and scandi inspired pieces for any old room in your house. These products come mostly assembled, the weight and feel is super high qual, the packaging is meticulous and guess what? Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.comcult and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com cult for $50 off your first purchase. A hundred dollars or more. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
- [01:48]
Calvin Wayman
Joseph Smith had extramarital affairs and it was challenging his profit status. So the way he covered it up is he said an angel came with a sword and said you must take on other wives. I mean it's the best cover up story ever. Usually bros have to have like some sort of like bro code of like no. If my wife asks, I was here but he was like no. An angel told me and he made like religions about it. And I come from it. This is the best part. This guy's cover up story is why I'm born. This is amazing.
- [02:16]
Iman Haririkiah
Biggest scheme of all time.
- [02:18]
Calvin Wayman
Yes, it's so bananas. But that became not only is this okay, but polygamy is how you get to the celestial kingdom.
- [02:27]
Reese Oliver
This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Reese Oliver, Sounds like a Cult's resident rhetoric scholar.
- [02:35]
Chelsea Charles
And I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology.
- [02:40]
Iman Haririkiah
And I'm Iman Hurricia, author of Female Fantasy, the Most Famous Girl in the world and 100 other girls.
- [02:46]
Reese Oliver
Every week on this show we discuss a different group or personality that puts the cult in culture, from fantasy football to Etsy witches. To try and answer the big question,
- [02:55]
Chelsea Charles
this group sounds like a cult, but is it really?
- [03:05]
Iman Haririkiah
And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A Live youe Life, a Watch your Back, or a Get the Fuck Out?
- [03:13]
Chelsea Charles
Because cultish thinking is a spectrum from the usually harmless collectibles like American Girl Dolls and Reese's favorite Labubus to the more insane insidious crowds like Anti Vaxxers and Christian nationalists. So we're here today to unwrap the nuances of your favorite groups and determine where they fall on this rainbow of cultishness.
- [03:37]
Reese Oliver
Like, for example, a cult of two that turns into a cult of three and then a cult of four. And then you reproduce with your fellow cult members and hope to book a reality show on tlc. And no, we're not talking about us, silly. Although that sounds fun. We are talking about the cult of Sister Wives. We're gonna touch a little bit on the popular TLC show, but we're also going to take a look behind the curtain at what sister wifing is really about. Because it is not just for the screen. Maybe it is happening. It is happening. Boots on the ground, honey. So you two, have we seen Sister Wives? Did we watch Big Love?
- [04:14]
Chelsea Charles
I've probably seen maybe three episodes of Sister Wives. But I am very, very, very familiar with the fandom that is associated with Sister Wives. The people that love that show, they go hard for that show.
- [04:27]
Reese Oliver
Do they have like K pop biases for, like, which wife is their favorite?
- [04:31]
Chelsea Charles
Absolutely, yes. There's a wife hierarchy.
- [04:33]
Iman Haririkiah
I am not familiar with the fandom around Sister Wives. I did see a little bit of Sister Wives when I was growing up, but I was more so obsessed with the concept of having a sister wife when I knew absolutely nothing about polygamy or what it meant. That OB obviously has changed as I've grown up. Not only because I used to work in sex and relationships, but because I live in Brooklyn. But obviously, like when I was young, I really hyper fixated on the Idea of my best friends one day becoming my Sister Wives, which was a misguided dream.
- [05:07]
Reese Oliver
There is such a range of ways to feel about monogamy. It's crazy because my impulse when I see something like the Sister Wives is I'm like, no, I don't think I'd like to share. Thank you very much. But I totally. I love that baby. Iman was like, no girl power. That sounds like I get to hang out with my bestie all the time. I'm in.
- [05:26]
Iman Haririkiah
Definitely. As I've gotten older and gotten married myself. Cult of marriage. My opinion on Sister Wives has, let's say, evolved. But please. When I was in middle school and the show was airing, I was looking around like, yeah, why don't we all pick one and just hunker down together?
- [05:42]
Chelsea Charles
I don't know, Iman, you might have been a little forward thinking on there. A little splitting some responsibility up. You know, sometimes you get some alone time when he's with the other one. I don't know, it might be a perfect little setup. Maybe they're onto something.
- [05:56]
Iman Haririkiah
I was a cult leader, onto myself, because I was thinking, if we find the right dumb man, we can manipulate him into taking us all on.
- [06:06]
Chelsea Charles
Uh huh, uh huh.
- [06:08]
Iman Haririkiah
Okay. Speaking of which, let's get into a little bit about the history of this cult. When most people hear Sister Wives, they think of the TLC show Sister Wives, which does follow one polygamous family. The Browns, navigating marriage, parenting, and relationships in a very public way. And the show has done a lot to normalize the idea of plural marriage, Hence my misguided desire to have one presenting it as a lifestyle choice rooted in faith and family. But the reality is, plural marriage in the US Is most commonly associated with the fundamentalist offshoots of Mormonism, particularly groups that broke away from the mainstream, the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, after it officially renounced polygamy in 1890. These fundamentalist groups continue to practice what they call celestial marriage, the belief that having multiple wives is a requirement for reaching the highest level of heaven. But importantly, this is a belief system more than just a lifestyle, often not deeply embedded in isolated communities with strict gender roles, religious authority structures, and limited contact with the outside world.
- [07:24]
Chelsea Charles
You know, I'm pretty sure this group of people is just so intriguing to entertainment because the amount of documentaries about the FLDS church and these plural marriages is insane. I literally just watched one last weekend and I was like, this is interesting to say the least, because I would say it's like not just the Plural marriage part, it's the, you know, pedophilia. And because some of them take wives that are like extremely young, we're gonna get into it.
- [07:57]
Reese Oliver
But yeah, I think it's funny that they just have their own little ecosystems. I have watched Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey and it's like, it's so culty the way in which they fully have even like economically removed themselves from the outside world, in my opinion, to absolve themselves of any judgment. Because it's like if we don't need to rely on anybody, then nobody, nobody can judge us. But yeah, like, it just goes to show the lengths you have to go to isolate yourself if you want to do something as blatantly sexist as require multiple wives for men, but not multiple husbands. Like, you know.
- [08:26]
Chelsea Charles
Right, right, right.
- [08:27]
Reese Oliver
Why is it only going one way?
- [08:28]
Chelsea Charles
Also, why is it so intriguing? Why are there not many shows about the other structure? Because I know that there are indigenous cultures that are like one woman, multiple husbands. I don't know. I would like to see that on my TV screen.
- [08:40]
Reese Oliver
Right. There are so many more interesting ways of living non monogamous lifestyles that I think, like, actually be very fulfilling for people to see and that I think would like, do a lot of good. And I do think reality tv, you might be able to say more about this than me, but I think slowly heading in that direction. But for sure, what makes the money and what we know people are going to watch is the Browns on Sister Wives, of course.
- [09:01]
Chelsea Charles
Absolutely. So more on that in the case of tlc. Sister Wives. The Browns are an American polygamous family that hit reality TV stardom in September 2010. The family includes Kody Brown and his current wife Robin, and his his ex wives, Mary, Janelle and Christine. And they're 18 in this economy, children plus spouses and grandbabies. Now, this family began their reality TV journey in Utah, but Kody and Robyn currently reside in Flagstaff, Arizona. The ex wives and children are scattered around the US you might be thinking, isn't it illegal across the US to marry more than one person? Indeed it is. Kody Brown's legal loophole, as many other plural marriages, was to legally marry one woman, while the other three marriages were spiritual unions. These spiritual unions were supposed to be equal to legal marriage within the family. But as we'll later see, it wasn't always the case. Okay, fun fact for all my culties that are sister wives lovers. Kody was legally married to Mary first, and then he divorced her so that he could marry his fourth wife legally. Robyn.
- [10:15]
Iman Haririkiah
Interesting.
- [10:17]
Chelsea Charles
Because, you know, like, the first wife is the person that's supposed to have, like, all the hierarchy and all the things. And then he, like, fell in love, I guess, with his fourth wife and was like, ah, I want to marry her. So what?
- [10:26]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, like the person you're sealed to is the person that you go to the celestial kingdom with forever. So to, like, unseal and reseal. That's a little wild.
- [10:33]
Iman Haririkiah
I mean, could these celestial marriages actually be a tool for the patriarchy?
- [10:40]
Amanda Montell
My brain just exploded.
- [10:43]
Iman Haririkiah
God, I learned something new on this podcast every day.
- [10:48]
Chelsea Charles
In 2011, Kody Brown of Sister Wives and his wives filed a federal case challenging Utah's anti polygamy laws, saying they had fled to Las Vegas out of fear of prosecution. Cody claimed that although they had checked with state officials before going public, they were investigated for felony bigamy the day after the show premiered, which he said impacted his job, finances, and family well being, because, Listen, he's got four wives and 18 children he needs to take care of. Okay. Ultimately, the case was dismissed by the U.S. court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit, which ruled that Utah did not typically prosecute polygamy unless it involved additional crimes like fraud or child marriage, meaning the Browns did not face a credible threat of prosecution. I guess I would say similar to how it's hard to prosecute cults unless there are other serious crimes associated. We've seen it with NXIVM and OneTace and even heaven's Gate, where things like tend to operate in this gray area before anything legally actually sticks.
- [11:53]
Reese Oliver
Yes, this is something that I really remember learning from Carol Murchison, the lawyer that we spoke to about Kundalini Yoga. If you haven't listened to that episode, I highly recommend it. But yeah, one of the things that makes her job so tricky is that she isn't really prosecuting the entire situation that she's dealing with. She's having to sift through it for what reads as crime to legal authority. So it's not very much different here. It makes things a lot trickier to get litigious with. And now it is time to circle back around to what Chelsea had mentioned earlier. The fundamentalism of it all, the controversy. Obviously, the sister wife lifestyle does not come without drama. And critics and former members of polygamous communities have pointed out that what we see on TV is pretty much just a curated version of, like, a much more complicated and often troubling reality. So the most extreme examples come from groups like flds, which you can learn more about in documentaries like Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey or Alyssa Wall, her book Stolen Innocence. Really Good, where under Warren Jeffs, girls like Alyssa were married off at really young ages and dissent was punished severely. Jeffs was convicted in 2011 on charges related to the sexual abuse of minors, which brought national attention to the darker side of these communities. I'm pretty sure he was arrested in the back of a car that was either on the way to or leaving from Disneyland. He was breaking all of his own rules. Maybe. Beyond that, there are broader patterns that former members have spoken about, such as young women being pressured into marriages, limited access to education or financial independence, men being expelled from communities to reduce competition for wives, and families being separated when somebody leaves. And even outside the most extreme groups, people who leave often describe losing absolutely everything. Their family, their support system, their identity. Like I said earlier, these FLDS communities are extremely insular for that purpose, to intimidate you into staying because being excommunicated from them is purposefully life ruining. But that is because not everybody in a plural marriage or in this lifestyle would describe themselves as oppressed. There are a lot of people who choose this life that find meaning in it. They say that it works for them. And the TLC show definitely helped to push that narrative to the masses.
- [14:04]
Iman Haririkiah
Well, I mean, I think that like sister wives are inherently culty in that people that grow up in these communities are, are essentially isolated from the moment that they enter their marriages and are often put in positions in which their insulated communities mirror their own. And they think that everything that they are oftentimes being sometimes suggested towards, oftentimes subjugated to is their idea, especially because they're so young. Obviously this is not a rule for all women in these situations. But I have to thank any young girl who is entering a marriage or a relationship when she's coming of age, around the age of 18, is oftentimes not making decisions that are empowering. And in this specific situation, when the power dynamic is so ultimately not in her favor, I can't imagine a way in which someone could be operating with their full agency when they decide to enter a relationship like this.
- [15:10]
Chelsea Charles
I also can't help but to think of the long term ramifications of the relationships you then have with your parents. Because a lot of these families were born into this religion and they are forcing their kids to participate and perpetuate and uplift the same ideals of this religion. And just seeing like those firsthand accounts of people leaving the religion and seeing them look back, it's like I don't know how I would then feel about my parents, who I know obviously forced me into this situation. Also, I think it's interesting how a lot of them are sister wives, but a lot of them are actually like sisters, blood siblings, married to the same man. I just thought that was fascinating and very culty.
- [15:54]
Reese Oliver
I don't know what's scariest to me about it is it's like a double walled, insulative layer of cultishness. Because not only are you like within the cultishness of a fundamentalist Mormon community, but then within your own household, you don't even have agency or you're not able to share that headship position. So the only slight silver lining I see in it is, I think as opposed to like a lot of different Christian fundamentalist couples that are monogamous, at least in this you have commiserators, there are other women with whom you can bond. But I do think that that gets scary because I think when all of those people are victims of this system that are warping their perspective, it can become just kind of like a, an echo chamber of some, some really harmful things that are not good for your self esteem. So I, I worry for the women in these homes. That's how I feel.
- [16:41]
Iman Haririkiah
And obviously this is a lot more extreme than the Cult of the Amish, in my opinion. But it does remind me of the episode you guys did on the Cult of the Amish. Before my time. But I've been famously listening to all of sounds like a cult's back catalog. So I recently listened to the Cult of the Amish and I was thinking about the exit costs associated with giving up all of the time and energy and relationships that you've put into fostering in order to start fresh. Like I can imagine that abandoning your marriage years into it after you have children, after you've been in a family unit for so long and starting anew can be so incredibly terrifying and intimidating and also feel like a betrayal of your own core beliefs. Similarly too. And that's probably where the similarities end.
- [17:35]
Reese Oliver
Something else that I'm also curious about is what life is like for the children on the inside of this. Like, I guess this is kind of just a general polygamy question, but I wonder if as a kid of a secondary or a third wife, there's tension there as opposed to the children of maybe, maybe the primary wife. Because I know even just like among step kids with blended families, those dynamics just get so complicated and especially when not only you're so young, but you're in such a morally charged environment where like everything you do is being held under such a microscope. I am really excited to get into our interview and gain some more perspective on what life surrounded by IRL Sister Wives is like.
- [18:15]
Iman Haririkiah
So much of what we see on shows like Sister Wives reflects reality, but how much of it is a curated version of a much more complex and at times troubling system. Well, to help us understand what this world actually, actually looks like from the inside. Today we are joined by Calvin Wayman who grew up in a plural marriage family.
- [18:45]
Amanda Montell
This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to create the website of your dreams, to connect with your audience and to sell anything from products to content to even your valuable time. I am a longtime Squarespace user. It is a household name for a reason. Setting up a stunning Squarespace website took about 30 minutes. It's great for artists, e commerce brands. Squarespace Payments makes it really easy to get set up and sell anything on your website. Not just physical products, but also like photographs, courses. Another thing that really makes Squarespace stand out is its design intelligence which combines decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to help you unlock your creative potential. You can use it to build a stunning bespoke website that really matches your brand. And hey, let's say you're not really trying to sell anything. Let's say you're just trying to create a decent landing page that pops up first when people google your name. Squarespace is great for that too because it has fast and integrated SEO tools. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode of Sounds Like a Cult is proudly sponsored by Article. I recently made over my back deck with some article patio furniture and oh my God. I am not exaggerating when I say it has improved my life, my mood, my health. I'm now spending time in the sunshine. I never did that before because my patio was ugly. But the thing about article is that it makes it effortless to create a stylish, long lasting home at an unbeatable price. And I'm not just talking outdoor furniture. Article offers a curated range of mid century modern, coastal and scandi inspired pieces for any old room in your house that not only stand beautifully on their own, but pair really well. So you could outfit your entire house in article and it would look cohesive and stylish. These products come mostly assembled. The weight and feel is super high quality. The packaging is meticulous. Shipping and assembly are fast and affordable. I really feel like I bought a $6,000 outdoor couch but didn't. And yet Article makes me feel like I did. And guess what? Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more. To claim, visit article.com cult and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com cult for 50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more.
- [21:21]
Iman Haririkiah
Calvin welcome to Sounds Like a Cult. Could you please introduce yourself for our listeners?
- [21:26]
Calvin Wayman
I'm Calvin Wayman. I grew up in a small town in Utah, spent a lot of time in Colorado City, Arizona, where the headquarters and I have one dad, four moms, and 44 siblings.
- [21:39]
Chelsea Charles
44, 44.
- [21:41]
Calvin Wayman
We all grew up in one house.
- [21:42]
Reese Oliver
Oh, my God.
- [21:43]
Chelsea Charles
How many bedrooms? Calvin?
- [21:45]
Calvin Wayman
Not enough. About 12, I think.
- [21:47]
Reese Oliver
Oh, okay.
- [21:48]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah, 12 bedrooms, 12 bathrooms, something like that. Yeah.
- [21:51]
Reese Oliver
I'm not good enough at math for
- [21:52]
Chelsea Charles
that, but, well, still a lot of people. Okay, so could you tell us a little bit about your upbringing and what growing up in a plural marriage family looked like for you?
- [22:02]
Calvin Wayman
I'm actually really grateful for this conversation because, you know, there's always new documentaries coming out, the latest one, trust me, on Netflix, and I feel like they miss a lot. There's a lot of nuance to it because, of course, there's the deeply troubling culty aspect that should be acknowledged, and I've acknowledged it a lot on my shows and interviews. But I feel like there's the human aspects that are quite unique and sort of, like, special. So we grew up on a farm. We had our own property, living in New York. Now I'm always hearing people, like, wish that they had, like, the farm life and stuff like that. So we grew up with that. Like, I milked a cow every morning. I would say probably the most unique and special part of growing up was growing up with that many siblings because we were each other's friends. We did everything together. We got in trouble together, we disobeyed the parents together, covered each other together, raised the animals together, grew the garden together. And again, for my family specifically, my family was a little bit cultier than the religion at large, the one that I was born into, for example. I know some families were way more open to, like, go out and explore the world sort of but the way I was raised, we were raised in a fenced yard and never really went outside the property. Never even went to, like, a public park. And so everything was there. All of the adventure was on the property. And it's probably why I love New York so much, too, is just the contrasts of that. So, yeah, there's a lot of little things there.
- [23:23]
Reese Oliver
I was going to ask how you feel about that in retrospect. Are you grateful for that? Do you wish you'd gotten out a little bit more?
- [23:29]
Calvin Wayman
Such a good question. I've been on such a journey where when I first left this, I was so pissed. I was so angry at the way I was raised, the sheltered aspects of it. It didn't feel like I was me. I feel like I was a fish that was being forced to climb trees his whole life and just was completely against my soul. And so, yeah, I felt really bad and sad and mad that I didn't get to go explore, that I was made to feel that the natural parts of me were wrong. Just to have curiosity, just to have questions, just to be a natural human being. And so I went through several years of, like, just a lot of anger and processing and thank God for therapy, thank God for good friends, thank God for psychedelic drugs. Like, all the things to, like, process and get rid of the parts that weren't mean to find the parts that are mine. But I've had this strange thing in the last year, especially where, like, I love everything about life. Like, I love New York because everything's new. There's a variety of humans there. But I also love things that people find boring.
- [24:32]
Iman Haririkiah
Boring.
- [24:32]
Calvin Wayman
Like flying on an airplane. I see people at the airport and they're, like, mad if their flight's delayed. And I'm like, so you have to wait 30 minutes to do the impossible. Like, this is crazy. What are we doing? Like, we were hairless apes not long ago, and, like, we stole an entire species technology, and we do it infinitely better than them. We're going to be in the clouds. This is nuts. And I know that I have that perspective because I grew up so sheltered.
- [24:53]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, you have, like, a childlike wonder.
- [24:55]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah. So the thing that I've come to after the anger and everything is like, I've just started to, like, really fall in love with life. And I know a part of that is because of how I was raised. And so it feels disingenuous sort of now to, like, cut off my roots again. I am not one to shy away from the dark sides. In fact, I'm So curious about the dark sides. I'm very curious about where things go wrong. I mean, I. I went to the Middle east and did a documentary on the conflict between Israel, Palestine. Like, I'm so curious about the dark and what creates it and what it's truly like for people living in it. But I'm in this place now where, strangely or not strangely, I'm grateful for growing up the way that I did, because I wouldn't have the fresh perspective on life where everything is new that I have right now. I feel like I'm returning to innocence somehow, even though I'm not a child. Wow, how beautiful.
- [25:47]
Chelsea Charles
I love that. Also, just thinking eight years, that's not really that long ago.
- [25:52]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah. So I guess I am a child. I'm like eight years in this new life, so I kind of feel like an 8 year old sometimes.
- [25:58]
Reese Oliver
Okay, so. And a lot of people think about Sister Wives. They're obviously thinking about the TV show. Just wondering how that lives up to your lived experience. And also wondering if you think shows like Sister Wives have changed the outside world's views on plural marriage.
- [26:13]
Calvin Wayman
I have extreme views on this one side. Of course, it's drama, it's good for tv, and there's all the nuance and stuff, but the two extremes is. It's way more extreme sometimes and there's way more drama that could never be captured by tv. Like the nuance of the way people fight and argue and like hold grudges and sort of like turn on themselves thinking they shouldn't be jealous. There's a lot of internal dialogue that is really difficult to capture in sort of like polygamous societies. And again, I have nothing against even polygamy per se. I mean, one would be enough for me always, but it's from the place of which you do it. And so again, on one side, shows like Sister Wives capture a glimmer of something that is very true, and it's even more true than it could possibly capture. And again, flipping the other extreme, there is genuinely so much, much goodness wrapped up in a fundamentalist, Mormon, polygamous society that is so difficult to capture. The only thing I could connect it to is, I mean, this might be the best connection, but it's kind of like if you're really trying to understand toxic relationships, you have to know it's not just the negative side, it's not just the narcissism, it's the good parts. And that's what makes it so tricky, is that it's all tangled up in this ball of yarn. And it's sometimes difficult to decipher what aspect of this is very damaging and what part of this is really wholesome. And the truth is it's both. And that's the part that a lot of TV sort of like misses the mark on. And it just sort of leaves this sense of like you're almost looking at a zoo animal, sort of like watching tv. And like that's so crazy. At least I'm not that crazy. At least our family's not that weird and that. And that's true, but I don't know, everybody has their weird. Like the thing that I've learned just living in life is like everything is culty. Like there's so many things that don't just sound like a cult. They look like a cult, they feel like a cult. And they are probably like a yoga studio or like a political group. Like it's everywhere. It's like a human thing. And I think it's fun to notice it and explore it. Especially of course in the obvious places, but in the non obvious places too. So yeah, it's a blend. It captures a glimmer of something. And then of course it misses some things too.
- [28:14]
Iman Haririkiah
I like that you compared it to a toxic relationship, because toxic relationships, famously cult of one. But for someone who didn't grow up in it. What are would you say the biggest misconceptions then about the plural marriage community?
- [28:29]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah, there's a few things, but one of the biggest misconceptions is that it's just brainwashed humans. I think that's probably the biggest one. I think it would be very uncomfortable for people to know how they're wired, that they could be in the same thing given the right situations. I think that's a very uncomfortable thing because I've talked to people about it. Again, I'm so fascinated by this. Like the last few years I've just been combing through my entire lived experience and you know, I've journaled almost my entire life even while I was in it. So I've been combing through those journals and feeling what I was getting fed and like, look, looking at history and everything. And there's so many elements that I'm like, oh, this is just very human. So people, I think would be shocked at how human it actually is that they could be in that culty environment that they could become that way. But again, it's not just brainwashed people. If that was the case, I wouldn't have left. Like nobody was in it more than me. I was so in It. I believed every aspect of it. And so I'm coming to a kernel here. I think, especially when it comes to tv, they have this villain person. There's just this evil genius at the top and everybody else is like, like this sheep. It's not like that. Like, there's real human beings with real motivational internal struggles that's making it work. Like a sense of security. Like the idea of leaving, that's hard to even communicate how existentially terrifying it is to leave the bubble. Now, yes, it's the religious aspects of fear of hell, but it's also the human aspects of. Because it's so tight knit, the idea of leaving feels like a death. And then the other sides to it is again, there's plenty of manipulation, there's exploitation, and there's also a lot of wholesome stuff. Like, I just saw my son's teacher right before this started and she's traveled the world, even though she lives in this environment and she teaches by being super immersive and she like did a knighting ceremony the other day. And I see how it's affected my son Archie, who's 12 and stuff like that. But again, I think my point here is like, there's something that is deep, deep in aspects of this that I think is hard to capture. Like, my son's teacher is not just somebody that's just following stuff. She's independent and she's doing something that feels meaningful to her and she's genuinely impacting, you know, sixth graders lives in a big way. But here's another misconception. This is something that's never been said because there are people that feel trapped. Women are trapped. I felt trapped. But here's the part that nobody says. Probably some of the most trapped people, especially in my culture, are the leadership. There's a group of leaders that are sort of at the top of this thing. They were inherited into that position, position. They were put there and I see it in them. They don't know what to do. And one thing I've learned about just life and humans is there's like this common through line with humans that they need to feel seen in their deep honesty. And there's like some healing element to it. And leadership in my culture never gets to actually feel genuine love. Now follow me on this because even if they're on a pedestal and there's all this adoration, they're not getting to show their authentic self. And they can probably fool an entire congregation. But who's the one person you can't really fool about who you are yourself. Like, they know they're human, but they are afraid to even show their humanity. So even though they're getting all this adoration at church, they're not actually getting to feel it. And so it's this strange thing that I'm noticing. And so part of the thing I'm thinking about is like, what would have to happen. Like, I know we're approaching it of like, how to get rid of the people at the top and stuff like that. But more I'm thinking about it is like, if somebody really is sort of like in a position at the top, that they feel like they're between a rock and a hard place, how do you get that person before they become a Warren Jeffs, before they become a Sam Bateman, before it becomes bad? How do you get that person to feel safe enough to be themselves publicly and to step down, step aside? I don't know, but it's just something that I've picked up that especially when they were born in the exact same culture and they went through all the conditioning I went through, and then their dad says, okay, now you're in this position. And everybody's like, adoring them and stuff like that, but they know that they're a human being. It's just such a fascinating situation to be in.
- [32:26]
Reese Oliver
No, that's. That's very insightful. And I assume you're talking about the flds. Church leaders are similar alert.
- [32:32]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah. So my church is known as the Centennial Park Group, which in my dad's generation, the flds, Warren Jeff's church and stuff like that. We were all part of the same church, but then there was a split off that happened in this town that I'm in, There was a leadership dispute. So on one side there's Warren Jeffs, and then on the other side there's the Centennial Park Group. That's what I was born into. And the Centennial Park Group, again, it's the same thing. It's the same beliefs. It's polygamy, but it's a baby. It's a baby cult. You know, it hasn't gone all the way to the deep end that these ultimate go to if you just keep pushing the edges.
- [33:07]
Reese Oliver
I like what you said about baby cult because I'm actually interested in the baby cult of the family unit, I guess you could say I'm wondering how authority is maintained and how hierarchy functions just kind of within the home.
- [33:17]
Calvin Wayman
It's actually interesting because I'm now dating somebody that we both grew up in the same cult. But we're no longer a part of it. And we've been comparing and contrasting our upbringings, and one thing I've learned is I lived in a cult within a cult. Like, my family was so culty in every way. Like, the biggest fight I ever gotten with my dad, dad, rest his soul, he passed a couple years ago and we had some rocky stuff. And then the last couple of years, though, we like really got to have a genuine relationship. But the biggest fight that we ever got in was because I showed up to his house dressed like this, wearing short sleeves, and it broke his brain. And I was 32. So my family especially, everything is like funneled through this, I mean, shocker, masculine hierarchy. That's like, they're the ones at the top. I wouldn't even call it masculine masculine because it's so weak, sort of. It's so like everybody could be behaving a certain way, otherwise everything breaks. So it was all controlled through this. If you've done other stuff on Mormonism, have you heard of the concept of priesthood? So priesthood is like this. Well, I cheekily call it Harry Potter like power, because it's like, oh, you have the priesthood. And the priesthood is God's power on earth held by men. So the only way women can even get close to priesthood is if they marry a man that has it. So, yeah, everything revolved around. Again, I have a lot of love and respect for a lot of the things my dad did. He was. There was also a lot of problematic things around my dad. And one of those things is he essentially was the cult leader within our family. Everything went through him. If you needed a pair of shoes, you go to him. If you made any money selling cookies or something like that, you didn't keep that for yourself, you gave it to him. And it was all very controlled. And rule based in every way.
- [34:58]
Reese Oliver
Everybody answered to my dad, all stick, no carrot.
- [35:00]
Calvin Wayman
All stick, no carrot.
- [35:01]
Iman Haririkiah
Yeah.
- [35:01]
Calvin Wayman
Well, the carrot it is the celestial kingdom. In Mormonism, we have three heavens. The telestral, the terrestrial, and the celestial. The celestial is the highest heaven where someday we get to be. I don't know about if you know this, but in most churches you get
- [35:14]
Reese Oliver
your own planet, right?
- [35:15]
Iman Haririkiah
Yeah.
- [35:16]
Calvin Wayman
So in most churches you just get to be in the presence of God. But in Mormonism, especially fundamentalist Mormonism, you get to become a God and you get to have your own, not just a planet. That's. That's true. But eventually your own universe and you get to populate an entire universe and you get to make spirit Babies that become the new galaxy and stuff like that. So honestly, that's bringing up a little bit of old trauma because when I left everything, I'm like, wait, so I don't get my planet, I don't get my universe now there's nothing I can do in my life that's going to even come close to what I was going to get.
- [35:47]
Chelsea Charles
Wait, Calvin, I have a question. You said there are three tiers to the kingdom. How do you get into each one? Like, what's the great question?
- [35:56]
Calvin Wayman
How loyal are you? How obedient are you? You, how good are you? It's a very earning religion. And if I recall, they're all so good. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, said if you knew how good even the lowest one is, you would end your life just to get there. Except ending your life would be like probably putting you into hell, cuz that's like killing an innocent life. But the low one, God has like his presence, his spirit, but you don't actually get to be around God. And then the middle one, I think you get to hang out with Jesus or something, but not really God. And in the celestial kingdom you get God and Jesus like they visit all of them. But to get to the celestial kingdom, you got to be a polygamist. That's the top.
- [36:35]
Chelsea Charles
Got it.
- [36:36]
Calvin Wayman
That's what has kept this going for 200 years is polygamy. Polygamy turned into a religion. I'm going to say something that would offend a lot of Mormons and fundamentalists, but it's. I think it's true. So what appears happened is Joseph Smith had extramarital affairs, as one does, and it was challenging his prophet status. So he needed to have a way to cover it up. So the way he covered it up is he said an angel came with a sword and said you must take on other wives, otherwise you, you're going to. I mean it's the best cover up story ever. You know, usually bros have to have like some sort of like bro code of like no, if my wife asks, I was here. But he was like, no, an angel told me and he made like religions about it. And I come from it. This is the best part. Life is so wild. Like this guy's cover up story is why I'm born. This is amazing.
- [37:22]
Iman Haririkiah
Biggest scheme of all time.
- [37:24]
Calvin Wayman
Yes, it's so bananas. But that became not only is this okay, but it's how you get to the highest heaven. Like that's how extreme it was pushed that polygamy is how you get to the celestial kingdom. And so then you're sort of shamed if you're a woman and you're like, I think I don't want to have sister wives. I think I just want to have one. It's like, well, do you want to get to the celestial kingdom or not? And some women are like, I kind of don't think I want to. Like, isn't the telestial kingdom great?
- [37:52]
Reese Oliver
It doesn't sound fun.
- [37:53]
Iman Haririkiah
Yeah.
- [37:54]
Calvin Wayman
And even that becomes religious again. These are the things that become twisted. I talk to my girlfriend about it all the time, about, you sort of get turned on yourself. You sort of feel like you can't trust yourself. Like, even your jealousy is turned into a bad thing. And then it becomes a religious practice to rid yourself of jealousy. But what you end, what that's doing is like ridding yourself of yourself of your honesty. So it definitely gets twisted. But, yeah, polygamy, that's where it comes from. It's one of the crowning principles of the religion.
- [38:22]
Chelsea Charles
Got it.
- [38:23]
Reese Oliver
I think it's really crazy how Joan of Arc says she talks about. Talks to God and she gets put to death. And Joseph Smith said that he talked to an angel and. And he gets a religion and a state. I think that that's.
- [38:33]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's the patriarchy in the most extreme sense.
- [38:41]
Amanda Montell
First of all, culties, if you're not already subscribed on YouTube, you really should, because all of us hosts are all really beautiful in our own way. But I am especially beautiful today because I am wearing my Zenni optical prescription sunglasses. I had not updated my prescription sunglasses in years. I never wore my old ones because I hated them. But prescription sunglasses are so expensive, I put it off. Then I learned about Zenny. It's an online eyewear shop that offers prescription eyeglasses sunglasses, blue light glasses at prices that gave me whatever the opposite of sticker shock is because they started less than $30. It's kind of crazy. These sunglasses are so cute. I feel like they look very expensive and they feel expensive, but they were like 50, 50 bucks. I actually just genuinely recommended Zenny to my husband Casey, who needs new prescription sunglasses. I was like, yo, get on. Sounds like a cult level. And if you are a fellow four eyes, listen up. That scratched up pear has done its job upgrade today with Zenny. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 off your first order plus free shipping on all US orders over 65. These styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That z e n-n I.com podcast promo code podcast 1515
- [39:52]
Calvin Wayman
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- [40:21]
Chelsea Charles
okay, so the hallmarks of cults are barriers to entry and exit costs. What were the repercussions of leaving this type of family situation? Like relationships with your siblings, like yeah,
- [40:35]
Calvin Wayman
that was the most challenging part. This cannot be overstated how hard it was to leave. I mean it's very difficult to come in into it, but it does happen like every once in a while there's a convert. But in our church there wasn't missionary work like there is in the mainstream Mormon church to get converts. So entering very rare. Leaving, it's next to impossible. Especially as a guy. There's so much shame and fear that had been instilled into us every week for our entire lives going to priesthood, meeting in church because something about Mormonism, especially fundamentalist Mormonism, is we are taught it's not only a works based faith where you have to do something, but in Mormonism you are judged not just based on what you do, but by how much knowledge you had been given and what you did with that knowledge. So if you were born in the truth, which I was, according to my church, you have the one true church left on the planet. It's the reason the earth hasn't been destroyed yet. Because we're here, we're special, and you're given this truth and you leave it. It is so, not just sinful, it is so insulting, exulting to God for him to give you this gift. We were taught that it is worse than rape and murder to leave and that if you do, not only do you go to hell, there is a special place in hell for you where you will have the most pain, the most torment. And so that was a serious consideration when I was considering leaving. Like, is this true again? Also in Mormonism we were taught that you're a being that has eternity and you're just in this little sliver called life. But you existed so much before life and there's so much time after this and if you just make one, one wrong move, you could be messing up your eternity. And so I have this weight of like, am I messing up my soul for eternity if I leave? And I remember just being so. It didn't feel fair. I was like, I could leave and I could go to hell forever, but it also didn't make sense to me that I could be somebody that's just lounging on the sofa, eating Cheetos, doing nothing and staying in the religion. And I was like, I have to believe if there's a God, he has to give some mercy towards somebody that's genuinely wanting to do, like, following their. Their heart. And so that's what made me finally leave. I was like, well, I've got one life. Like, I hope there's something after this. I hope there was something before. But this little sliver that they're saying, this is all. This is like a small thing. It's the thing to me that is the most real. So what am I going to do with that? And I realized that my entire life, it was like, outside, in, be this way, dress this way. It was from my dad, the church leaders. And I was like, I want to do a different way. I want to live inside out. Even if I'm wrong, even if I die on my own sword, so to speak, I'm going to do that. And so it was that sort of thinking that made me leave. But then when I left, as scary as it was to come up and to face hell and call bluff on it, it was absolutely painful and terrifying because when I left, it genuinely did feel like a betrayal to everybody that I knew, especially coming from me, because I was. I mean, I had a church arranged marriage, like Fundamentals, Mormons. The church arranges the marriage that I ended up leaving. I left it all. I moved out of the town, which was unheard of because we're all in this one area. And so 99% of the that I grew up with became estranged overnight in that single decision. And so we're social beings, and I didn't realize how hard that would be. Again, I felt I went from so connected to, like, so isolated, so solo, almost like that I was. If this is a different time period, like, I was outside of the camp watching the camp glow, and I'm like, naked outside of it, and I can't go in. It was very challenging believing. Yeah, I see why people stay. Because it is very, very difficult to leave.
- [44:08]
Iman Haririkiah
Calvin, if someone listening is in a similar situation and considering leaving, what would you then want them to know or take away from your experience?
- [44:18]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah, I've been asked this a few times. Even by people that are in it. I've had a few people reach out to me and one of the questions that they asked is like, are you actually okay? Like, I've had people give me their number to call them and they wouldn't give me their name because they were afraid that if I mentioned it on a podcast, they couldn't let any of their family know that they were doubting. Because that's the thing. Even the doubting period, I couldn't talk to anybody about that. I would say get honest with yourself. That's it. Say the scary thing that you really think. Say the scary thing that you really feel. Nobody has to know, Nobody has to see it. Write it down on a notebook that you're going to burn or in a private document. What do you personally genuinely feel? Get connected to that? Because the one thing that I just genuinely believe because I've, you know, I'm connected to a lot of other ex cult kids that have made this impossible decision. And there is, is this human spirit, this resilience that is there, that people don't realize how capable they are, especially after decades of conditioning that you're not, but you are capable and you can. And if you're questioning it, there's a reason I would get clear on why for you. And I know how impossible it feels because it feels like you are smarter than everybody that loves you. And it feels narcissistic. It feels like I'm insane. Who am I to think that I could know better than my dad, all these church leaders that I go to, everybody in my congregation. It feels ridiculous. I get that. But you have to do it for you. And the other thing I would say, and because this is a question that people have asked me when they've DMed me or called me, is like, is it okay on the outside? It's hard as fuck. It is hard as fuck. It is so hard when you leave. But yes, it gets good if you stay honest, you stay true to yourself. It'll be the hardest thing you've ever done. But yes, it's good. There are good human beings every, everywhere. And I know it's good to have family that you feel supported by. To me, it's such a different level when you have chosen family, people that love you for you and they hold you in, just you being you and you not having to second guess yourself and stuff like that. So I don't want to downplay how challenging it is, but yes, you can do it if you're feeling pulled to and you'll know like it's a decision only you can make. That's real.
- [46:30]
Chelsea Charles
That's real.
- [46:30]
Reese Oliver
And on that uplifting note, guys, I think it's time to play a game.
- [46:35]
Chelsea Charles
It's time to play a game.
- [46:36]
Iman Haririkiah
Let's do it.
- [46:37]
Reese Oliver
All right, Calvin, in this new game that we have made up just for this episode, we are going to give you a celebrity and you are going to tell us if they would make a better sister wife or a better cult leader.
- [46:49]
Calvin Wayman
Okay.
- [46:49]
Iman Haririkiah
All right.
- [46:50]
Chelsea Charles
Rapid fire.
- [46:51]
Reese Oliver
Kim Kardashian.
- [46:52]
Calvin Wayman
Oh, she's definitely a cult leader. Oh yeah, she's like the boss. She'd be so good.
- [46:56]
Reese Oliver
Nicki Minaj.
- [46:57]
Calvin Wayman
She would make a really good third wife.
- [46:59]
Chelsea Charles
Wife.
- [46:59]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah, she's like, she can just come in and she's like, there's like a confidence about being a third wife. Cuz you're just like, hey, I know you're here as a first wife and a second, but there's like, yeah, there's something about third wife energy where you just have like this confidence. Yeah, she's. She's a third wife.
- [47:15]
Reese Oliver
All right, Sydney Sweeney, man, where do
- [47:18]
Calvin Wayman
I place Sydney Sweeney? She's like seventh wife material. She's like the person that the 50 year old men after they've had wives already, like, they're like just hoping that they get Sydney as like their, their like wife down the line. Yeah, she's seventh wife.
- [47:34]
Chelsea Charles
Taylor Swift.
- [47:35]
Calvin Wayman
Oh, cult leader for sure.
- [47:36]
Iman Haririkiah
Okay, okay. Blake Lively,
- [47:41]
Calvin Wayman
first wife be very lucky to get to. And in fact, Blake Lively is like the one that like, you thought you were going to be polygamous but you married her and you're like, I actually think this is. Yeah, let's keep it this.
- [47:54]
Reese Oliver
That's enough.
- [47:55]
Iman Haririkiah
That's enough.
- [47:56]
Reese Oliver
We're the Smasher Pass I've ever played. Okay.
- [47:58]
Calvin Wayman
Gwyneth Paltrow, again, she's a boss cult leader. She's going to have multiple husbands. That's what's going to happen in hers.
- [48:07]
Chelsea Charles
And last but not least, Martha Stewart.
- [48:11]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah, she's a boss. She's got to be, she's got to be a cult leader too, but similar to the one before. I think she, she probably change the rules to the game and say you have to have at least three husbands to get to the celestial kingdom or something. Change it all.
- [48:24]
Iman Haririkiah
Yeah. Okay.
- [48:26]
Reese Oliver
Well, Calvin, thank you so much for your time. If listeners want to follow your cult, where can they do so well?
- [48:33]
Calvin Wayman
I have my YouTube show Cultured Boy, so that's probably the best place. Just search cultured boy on YouTube or Calvin Wayman on YouTube and that's where you can follow along.
- [48:40]
Reese Oliver
All right.
- [48:42]
Chelsea Charles
We appreciate you, Calvin.
- [48:44]
Calvin Wayman
Yeah, thank you.
- [48:44]
Reese Oliver
Thank you so much.
- [48:45]
Iman Haririkiah
Thanks.
- [48:51]
Reese Oliver
All right, ladies, I think it is time out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back or get the out. Where would you put the cult of sister wives?
- [49:04]
Chelsea Charles
Get the out.
- [49:05]
Iman Haririkiah
I have to agree. I am getting the out. Sorry, sorry. Although I do think that what Calvin said about how bonded he felt to his siblings and the camaraderie was a comfort to hear. I think I will stick to my relationship with my one younger sister where I'm obsessed with her and she thinks I'm annoying.
- [49:27]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, I think I'll continue to be the annoying little sister.
- [49:31]
Chelsea Charles
Not a 44. Yeah, that was a lot. That lifestyle does not interest me anymore anyway.
- [49:36]
Reese Oliver
Oh, if it's not clear I'm getting the out too. I didn't say it. Well, culties, that is our show.
- [49:42]
Iman Haririkiah
Thanks so much for listening.
- [49:44]
Chelsea Charles
Join us for a new cult next
- [49:45]
Iman Haririkiah
week and in the meantime, stay culty
- [49:49]
Reese Oliver
but not too culty.
- [50:00]
Amanda Montell
Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Reese Oliver, Iman Haririkiah and Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. Additional research for this episode by Naomi Nakahodo. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book the Language of Fanaticism which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod. Or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeaculture.
- [50:56]
Reese Oliver
Hello.
- [50:57]
Calvin Wayman
Look what TJ Maxx dragged in.
- [51:00]
Amanda Montell
The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney and Hulu.
- [51:04]
Calvin Wayman
We are digital. We are downloadable. We are streamable.
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Amanda Montell
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Calvin Wayman
We have work to do.
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Amanda Montell
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Iman Haririkiah
That's all.
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Amanda Montell
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Calvin Wayman
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Iman Haririkiah
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