The Cult of The Manosphere

Summary

Podcast Summary – Sounds Like A Cult: "The Cult of The Manosphere"

Date: March 10, 2026
Hosts: Amanda Montel, Reese Oliver
Guests: Liz Plank (feminist journalist, author of For the Love of Men), Kat Abou Ghazale (grassroots Congressional candidate, activist)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Amanda and Reese take a deep dive into the "cult of the manosphere," a loosely connected network of online communities and influencers dedicated to promoting a hypermasculine, often misogynistic worldview. The episode investigates the manosphere’s origins, key symbols and language, real-life impacts, pathways to radicalization, and why it so acutely fits the podcast’s framework for "cultish" behavior. Joined by two incisive guests, the discussion spans from internet memes to real-world violence, and always with the podcast’s signature mixture of seriousness, humor, and linguistic analysis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining the Manosphere

• Origin: The term "manosphere" emerged in 2009 as a play on "blogosphere," referencing a network of sites and forums for men, often driven by misogynistic content. (05:21)
• Definition: Urban Dictionary cites it as "websites...run by and for men, offering primarily misogynistic topics and content." (05:21)
• Evolution: Originally a fringe phenomenon, the manosphere’s beliefs and phrases have become mainstream, especially post-2016, emboldened by Trump-era politics. Phrases like “your body, my choice” (coined by Nick Fuentes) are chanted in schools and on campuses. (07:40)

Historical Context & Cultural Rise

• Roots in 'Men’s Liberation': 1970s-80s oppositional response to second-wave feminism set the stage, but internet culture in the 1990s and 2000s fueled widespread, organized misogyny. Waves of violence and tragedies are linked to manosphere involvement (e.g., 2014 Isla Vista, 2015 Umpqua, 2018 Toronto van attack, Gamergate). (08:34)
• Mainstreaming Hate: What was once internet subculture language and ritual is now widely known, often manifesting in violence or harassment offline.

Major Players & Cult Leadership

• Steve Bannon: Described as the "godfather" who harnessed the alienation of men for political power, offering them scapegoats for their problems. (15:09)
  • "Steve Bannon saw that and was like, oh, I can capitalize on this and essentially encourage these spaces where fear is the easiest human emotion to manipulate." — Kat (15:09)
• Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, Nick Fuentes: Embody various flavors of manosphere leadership, offering adherence a vision of regained masculinity or explicit antagonism towards women and minorities.
  • "Nick Fuentes...is a live streamer. He's the worst. Google him if you want your nightmares haunted." — Amanda (07:09)
  • Many “good guys” still absorb some of their narratives—subtle cultural seep.

Spaces & Platforms

• Online Hotbeds: Sites like X (formerly Twitter), Reddit, 4chan, Discord, incel forums, and YouTube’s algorithms are repeatedly cited as breeding grounds, with even innocuous searches quickly radicalizing users. (21:12; 22:10)
  • "You have a whole range of places. First off, obviously X, formerly known as Twitter, the child porn site. If you're still on there, I'd recommend getting off." — Kat (21:12)
• IRL Spaces: Miami and locations with lax regulations, especially around supplements (e.g., steroids), are “real-world” gathering points. (20:49)
• Contagion & Algorithmic Radicalization: The algorithms reward anger and outrage, making it easy for men—especially those isolated or vulnerable—to get pulled in. (43:57)

Symbols, Rituals & Language

• Cult Symbols: Pepe the Frog, Wojak, “red pill,” “looksmaxxing” (self-improvement for male approval), and “biohacking” (e.g., facial hammering).
  • “Fascists don’t understand art... Not being able to understand art because it inherently requires an understanding of empathy means that you have this sh*t and that's their entire culture.” — Kat (26:21)
• Language as Division: Terms like “black pill” (nihilism), calling women “females” (objectification), “Stacy/Chad” (hypergendered stereotypes), and the normalization of otherwise fringe misogynist jargon into broader culture.
  • "Describing women as 'females'—the biggest red flag... It's misogyny. Period." — Kat (37:09)
  • "The men who are at the helm of the manosphere telling men that they're going to get them laid with women are men who don't like women. It's really that simple." — Liz (34:43)
• Humor and Absurdity: The hosts frequently lampoon the manosphere’s obsession with “masculine” aesthetics (ugly furniture, hate for art, “is it gay to have a rug?”) as a reflection of punitive gender norms. (32:32)

Cult Structure & Subsects

• Subgroups:
  • Incels (involuntary celibates)
  • Men’s Rights Activists (MRAs)
  • Pickup Artists (PUAs)
  • “No Fap” (anti-masturbation)
  • Normie/“Joe Rogan” bros, Jordan Peterson fans, gun enthusiasts, etc. (39:29)
• Intersection With Far-Right & Fascism: Many manosphere influencers foster pathways to white supremacist and fascist ideology; group overlaps drive offline violence.
  • "The root of so much of fascism...is always and will always be misogyny." — Kat (50:01)

Why It's Cultish

• Entry/Exit: The “costs” are largely psychological and social. Community, belonging, a sense of meaning—easy to enter by participating online, but hard to leave due to sunk costs, shame, and the requirement to admit being wrong. (46:40)
• Addictive Community: Offers superficial solidarity while fostering resentment and unhappiness. “Short-term highs, then leaving ultimately improves your life.” — Kat (46:40)
• Magical Thinking, Self-Help Parallels: The manosphere offers a kind of grotesque, gendered “self-help”—promise of transformation echoing the American dream/prosperity gospel. (43:57)

Real-World Consequences

• Violence & Radicalization: Multiple high-profile attacks traced directly back to manosphere radicalization. Law enforcement professionals (e.g., ICE agents) populating these forums carry their misogyny and brutality into the real world. (49:33)
• Societal Impact: Impact is cyclical—hurts men (male loneliness crisis, deaths of despair) as much as women, but women remain primary victims of violence and harassment. (51:19)
• Responsibility: The group stresses that solutions cannot be the responsibility of women (“women are not responsible for hugging men back to mental health”); men must be responsible for repairing masculinity and community. (25:12; 24:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The manosphere, which is the cutesified new name for pool at the end of the alt right pipeline." — Reese (04:08)
• “Steve Bannon is like the grandfather of it.” — Kat (15:09)
• “No one robs an empty house. People are really colonizing men's brains.” — Liz (16:30)
• “There is a cult for everyone. And if you insist that there isn’t a cult for you, you’re probably in one.” — Kat (18:01)
• “If you're a man and you're consuming videos or on a social media platform, you almost have to actively try not to get sucked into the manosphere.” — Liz (40:59)
• “Entry and exit costs are all totally abstract...in the manosphere, you can literally just log off.” — Amanda (48:59)
• "This is truly one of those break-the-scale episodes where I wish there was a category worse than 'get the fuck out.'" — Reese (58:07)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:41 – Trigger warning: discussions of sexual assault & suicide
• 03:02 – Introduction of the manosphere and "cult categories"
• 06:11 – Explaining the manosphere’s roots and early history
• 07:40 – Mainstreaming of manosphere rhetoric (Nick Fuentes, Trump era)
• 08:34 – Manosphere-linked violence and gamergate
• 12:38 – Guest introductions: Liz Plank & Kat Abou Ghazale
• 15:09 – The role of Steve Bannon, profiling cult leaders
• 21:12 – Online platforms and algorithms as radicalization vectors
• 26:21 – Manosphere cult symbols & the aesthetics of anti-art
• 32:32 – Humor & critique: "Is it gay to have a rug?"
• 34:43 – Cult language: black pill, "females," infantilization
• 39:29 – Subsets and denominations in the manosphere
• 43:57 – Algorithmic radicalization; overlap with self-help culture
• 46:40 – Entry, exit, and sunk cost fallacy
• 49:33 – Worst-case scenario: real violence, misogyny & fascism
• 52:34 – Culty Quotes game segment
• 58:07 – Final verdict: beyond "get the fuck out"

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Final Verdict

After robust discussion and input from expert guests, Amanda and Reese unanimously agree the manosphere is an extremist, highly destructive “Get-the-Fuck-Out” cult—the podcast’s most severe category.

"It is the get the fuck out-iest. Get the fuck out—up there with anti-vaxxers, incels, flat earthers—probably worse." — Amanda (58:16)

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Resources from the Guests

• Kat Abou Ghazale: kat4illinois.com
• Liz Plank: Instagram @feministabulous, Substack "Airplane Mode," author of For the Love of Men, host of the Boy Problems podcast

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This episode is an essential listen for understanding the ways digital subcultures become cultish, the gendered dynamics of radicalization, and how seemingly “fringe” ideas gain power in real-world politics. With humor, candor, and profound insight, the hosts and guests make clear why vigilance—and resistance—is so urgently needed.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Before we get into the rest of this episode, I did want to provide a trigger warning that this conversation does cover topics of sexual assault and suicide. So if those are topics that you find triggering, absolutely no worries. We will catch you next week. Or just listen with a careful ear.

[C]

The worst case scenario is happening right now. All these fucking ICE agents are absolutely in these forums. It's why I've been beaten or gassed or thrown by ICE at least half a dozen times now. And every single time they can put their hands on me, they grab me by my chest. They don't do that to my male friends. Oh my God.

[A]

I hadn't thought about these ICE agents extracurricular activities.

[C]

I remember one time there was like A guy on a roof. And I was like, do you feel really big and strong in your army surplus gear? And he nodded at me and then he shot my feet with pepper balls from a roof.

[A]

This is Sounds like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of books including Cultish and the Age of Magical Overthinking.

[B]

And I am Reese Oliver, sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar. Every week on this show we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist, from raves to romance novels. To try and answer the big question.

[A]

This group sounds like a culture, but is it really?

[B]

And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out. After all, cultish influence appears in many, many forms nowadays. And sometimes the most destructive cults don't look how we think they should. This show is all about both seriously analyzing and bringing a wee bit of humor to the absurd ways in which we attempt to find meaning and community in 21st century America, which is a scary, scary place, people, filled with terrible, horrible groups like today's unfortunate subject, the manosphere.

[A]

Yes, I certainly hope we all felt that collective shudder. This episode today is kind of a companion piece to our episode on Incels, which was our most listened to episode of 2025. We recorded that with the iconic boys from last podcast on the left. But this time we're here to dig a little bit deeper into the figureheads that influence this. I don't think it's a stretch to say sickening corner of the Internet and the content that's shared there.

[B]

No. Okay, so if you're like Manosphere, what the heck is that? The Manosphere, which is the cutesified new name for pool at the end of the alt right pipeline.

[A]

Oh, so it's like a nasty ass water slide.

[B]

That's how I see it. Yeah, that's how I see it. Full of just like acid. It's a cesspool of bioessentialist nonsense, patriarchal garbage and arbitrary rules for the very large and somehow somewhat coherent group of men that claim to be bitter, self obsessed and emotionless because they don't have opportunity to form community. We're going to sit with that irony for just a second there.

[A]

I just love how lately on Sounds like a cult. We're done being measured. We're letting our judgments free.

[B]

No, we're really uncensoring ourselves lately. I noticed it with Chelsea, the Other day. And I was like, yeah, gloves are off, baby.

[A]

No, I love that.

[B]

So the origin of this term. It was believed to have first appeared on Ye Olde blogspot in 2009 as a play on the word blogosphere. The manosphere is defined by Urban Dictionary in several ways, which, to me, really signals the polarization of this cult.

[A]

I can't believe you took your ass to Urban Dictionary.

[B]

It's an urban word Fair. One person described the manosphere as a network or group of blogs and related websites that are run by and for men, offering primarily with love the grammar, offering primarily with misogynistic topics and content. Our next manosphere definition. A group of websites made for men to discuss men's interests and issues without women nagging them. Oh, oh. Those, of course, are the men who are going to reject the label entirely as anti men's rights movement propaganda. Ah, of course.

[A]

Like how anti vaxxers prefer vaccine aware.

[B]

Yes, it's just all framing.

[A]

There's pro life, there's anti choice, There's a lot.

[B]

So here's the tea. According to Rootledge, the manosphere can be defined as a varied collection of websites, blogs, and online forums promoting masculinity, misogyny, and opposition to feminism.

[A]

Okay, that sounds fair and technical, but the manosphere is older than Urban Dictionary. The manosphere has a storied past, and in order to diagnose this cult, we're going to need to excavate that. So I'm, like, going to choke on this phrase as I say it. But the men's liberation movement, as it's called, has its roots in the 1970s and 80s as a response to what? The feminist movement. The feminist movement.

[B]

The F word. The F word. Women.

[A]

Women being like, we want rights. But then, of course, the manosphere as we know it today, more so, took shape with the creation of the worldwide stinkin web. Throughout the 90s and the 2000s, the manosphere, much like an insidious mold, has slowly grown from the fringes of society into the mainstream in several waves throughout the 2000s, all of which have been marked by violence against women, various shapes of tragedy. But the manosphere has experienced no win quite like the reelection of Donald Trump. Not to spoil anything, but the manosphere's ultimate cult leader is literally sitting in the most powerful office in the world. So that's unfortunate, but really emboldening for them. And since then, phrases, rituals, and behaviors that were once relegated to the Internet's underworld are now broadly recognized and discussed. Phrases like get back to the kitchen and repeal the 19th, receiving millions of views on the app formerly known as Twitter, along with sentiments like your body my choice being used against women. That one was coined by Nick Fuentes, who is, I would say like a leader or at least a disciple in the C suite of this cult. He's a far right pundit, I guess. He's far right activist. He's. He's a live streamer. He's the worst. Google him if you want your nightmares haunted. The Associated Press has reported that these phrases have moved offline quote with boys chanting your body my choice in middle schools or men directing it at women on college campuses. They highlighted a case where a man held a sign that read Women are property at Texas State University.

[B]

So before we get into our interview, we do want to touch on how the manosphere makes its way off of our screens and into our very real the manosphere received significant media coverage following the 2014 Isla Vista killings in California, the 2015 Umpqua Community College shooting in Oregon, and the 2018 Toronto van attack, as well as the online harassment campaign against women in the video game industry known as Gamergate, all of which had perpetrators who had ties to manosphere content. We are here to continue digging into exactly how this abyss, where your sex life goes to die, formed. Who stewards it? How to get out of it all with the expert help of two two iconic guests, Liz Plank, a feminist journalist, podcaster and the author of the book for the Love of Men, and Kat Abou Ghazale, a grassroots congressional candidate for Illinois's 9th district who has carefully studied the manosphere to her own mental health detriment.

[A]

Stick around for after the break because you do not want to miss this conversation. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform to help entrepreneurs, creatives, podcasters stand out and succeed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to create a beautiful website to connect with your audience and to sell absolutely anything from products to content to even your valuable time. I am a longtime Squarespace user. I encourage you to check out soundslikeacult.com All Purdy thanks to Squarespace's beautiful features like their Design Intelligence, which combines two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to help you build the website of your dreams that represents your brand. Squarespace also offers integrated SEO tools. The website is optimized with indexed meta descriptions, an auto generated site map, and more so that you show up more often to more people in global search engine results. And obviously you can set up an online store on Squarespace if you're running like an E commerce situation. Or you can set up a fundraiser if you're feeling charitable. Squarespace is just a household name for a reason. It is just the service to use for website creation. Check out squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Culties I don't know about you, but I personally like to keep my money where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers like to keep my money where they can see it. That is why after years of overpaying for wireless, I am finally so eager to introduce you to Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile exists purely to help you no longer overpay for your wireless service. With Mint Mobile you can ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless for just 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data with unlimited talk and text, and it's all delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You bring your own phone and number, activate with EIM in minutes and start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. I truly find so many wireless providers to be so culty and scammy and Mint Mobile is like a beacon of light in the market. I highly recommend it. If you like your money. Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] cult that's mint mobile.com cult upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to 15 bucks a month. New customer offer for first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra mobile. For details Kat, Liz, welcome to Sounds like a Cult. Thank you both for being here. We just thought we needed like a coven today to discuss the Manosphere.

[C]

I think we need a coven in general all the time.

[D]

So yeah, a coven could heal us.

[A]

Could you individually introduce yourselves and explain your hopefully lack of relation to the Cult of the Manosphere? Okay.

[D]

My name is Liz Plank. My relationship to the Manosphere is that I'm afraid of it. Concerned. And I don't have anything funny.

[B]

Enough said.

[A]

No, there's objectively nothing funny about it.

[D]

I mean it is funny. It's just now when it has like real life consequences I think is when it becomes harder to sort of laugh off.

[A]

Yeah, maybe it used to be funny.

[D]

I wish we could go back to a time where the Manosphere was funny. This sort of contained Weird space, and not in the way that it is now, which it has sort of melded

[C]

with our real life.

[A]

Maybe that was, like, the 2016 trend that we all just lived through. What everybody was actually really longing for was a time when the manosphere was in there, you know, in Hercules, when those evil gods were in their subterranean cage. That's how I think of the manosphere.

[D]

That's a good point.

[B]

And, Kat, introduce yourself to the listeners.

[C]

I'm Kat Abu Ghazale. I'm running for Congress in the 9th district of Illinois, which goes from, like, uptown Chicago up to Evanston, West Tuskoke, all the way to Algonquin and Crystal Lake. I give so much detail because early voting starts in a week. Election day is on March 17. I am tied for first against one person who is fully funded by aipac, another person who submitted a position paper to aipac. And I don't do that. I'm under federal indictment. We were talking about this earlier. I'm going to court tomorrow for my federal indictment for protesting ice. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The reason I ran is because of shit like the manosphere. I covered the far right for outlets like Media Matters, Mother Jones, the Teo News. The manosphere is very, very, very intimately tied with all of that and now essentially runs our country. And I have been consistently attacked by far right chuds for my entire career. I'm really good at triggering them. They hate me. It's part of the reason that they're going after me. And I can't wa talk about the manosphere with you ladies.

[B]

Fudge.

[A]

Yeah, dude. What do you do for, like, are you care?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you, like, raw dogging? Are you on? What are you, like, what drugs do you do?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, like, look, we're all in an SSRI right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But yeah, I mean, people would be like, how do you watch Fox News, specifically Tucker Carlson every single night? And, like, the answer truly was built different. But, like, it is the best training for running for Congress because you've already had people like docs and swat you and be really fucking awful. So when someone says, like, a petty comment, you're like, okay, well, at least you didn't send me a rape threat, so that's cool.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

The bar. The bar is below. Hell, yeah. Okay, so as we will get into. The manosphere has many, many different leaders depending on which corner you are lurking in. Kat, who, in your opinion, are the overall cult leaders pulling the strings behind the whole operation?

[C]

I mean, you have a lot of characters now. You have people like Andrew Tate, but really the basis of the manosphere kind of started with Steve Bannon. And it's part of the reason the right has been able to collect so much power, especially online, because men, overall, we told them, your only value, especially in our culture, is what you can produce and how you can create things. And then we took away all of that and punishing them for vulnerability. And instead of creating third spaces and fostering community, we didn't do any of that. We just made things worse. And then Steve Bannon saw that and was like, oh, I can capitalize on this and essentially encourage these spaces where fear is the easiest human emotion to manipulate. And he said, hey, all of the problems in your life are actually due to women or minorities or insert X group. So I would say Steve Bannon is like the grandfather of it.

[B]

Gross.

[C]

She looks so gross.

[B]

They all look so gross. They all need a shower.

[D]

I was rewatching this episode of Sex and City last night where Samantha talks about Nixon because he couldn't get fucked. He fucked us all, you know, and that's the vibe I get from the guys at the helm of this.

[A]

I'm curious, Liz, like, how have you seen figures like granddaddy Steve Bannon, but also the Andrew Tate's, the Jordan Petersons? Not every man we know is worshiping at their altars. But how have you seen these figures influence bleed into even quote, unquote, good guys, everyday behavior these days?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, I think in the way that any cult functions, no one robs an empty house. People are sort of really colonizing men's brains and to Kat's point, have built a really powerful movement out of it. Steve Bannon not only saw these online spaces, but have replaced third spaces, which have been defunded and literally, like, national parks are shutting down and being, like, privatized. But Steve Bannon talked about this group of isolated, basically sad men, right, who were playing video games. And he went, oh, this would be great to build a movement around. And I think they've been very successful at creating a really powerful story that is very appealing to a lot of young men who, again to Kat's point, don't have the same access to social mobility. I mean, if you think about what being a man means, it's being a protector, it's being a provider. You can't really do either of those things if you can't find a job. Or if you have, you need three jobs in order to just feed yourself or your family. And so here comes the manosphere of Being like, you know what? You've never done anything wrong in your entire life. You are perfect. And this sort of fantasy of what it means to be a man that you see in movies and that your grandfather had access to the sort of James Dean, you know, tough masculinity. You can access that if you buy my. Whatever the fuck they're selling. But you know when you're most likely to end up in a cult is when you're just unhappy, you know, and so if you have a big group of unhappy men, yeah, the manosphere becomes a really enviable place to be. That makes you feel good, despite actually, as a lot of people have said, it's treating a wound that's real with the wrong medicine.

[C]

I just wanna say before we clown on a bunch of people, which I love to do, I say this a lot. I think that there is a cult for everyone. And if you insist that there isn't a cult for you that like, you could never ever fall into that, you're probably in one. I don't know what mine is. I think it's probably that one from Wild, Wild country, that Netflix documentary. Not like the five people who tried to poison a water supply, but the ones that were like making renewable energy and dancing and shit. That sounds fun.

[B]

Oh, like something Luddite and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I can tell because of the chair behind you that you would look gorge in orange.

[C]

Thank you. Orange is my favorite color. It's why it's our campaign colors. But I just really want to stress that it's easy to be like, oh, I could never ever do that. No, you could. And Trump, I don't understand his appeal. Like, his appeal does not appeal to me, but it does for a lot of people.

[A]

No, I would say unhappiness definitely can be like a vulnerability that orients someone toward a cult. But also I would say it's privilege. Like, you're probably not going to lend your life to an organization that's promising you transcendence and community and all of these things if you don't have time and money and other resources to spare. Occult doesn't want truly, truly the most down and out people. It wants people who have something that's useful to it. And manosphere type men have. I was gonna say they have a lot to offer, but

[D]

out of context, that's a tough one.

[B]

There's pot.

[D]

How did we get here?

[A]

They do. They have so much potential.

[D]

Yeah, I can fix him.

[C]

It's like the male loneliness epidemic. Like anytime a guy Is complaining about the male loneliness epidemic. I'm like, what are you doing in your life with your friends?

[A]

Literally? Actually, I am married to a man. Weirdly enough, he's a lesbian man, if that makes sense. And to some people, it really does. And to other people, it'll be like, what is that? It doesn't say, oh, love. Yeah, no. Casey's my lesbian husband, and he gives me so much hope, problematically enough, because I eavesdrop on him talking about his feelings with his bros so much. They're, like, playing pool. They do so many sweet little things together. And that could be the manosphere.

[C]

I think it should be. People are like, how do you have so many young men in your campaign? I'm like, I don't know. We just don't treat them like shit. Like, our campaign office is a third space. I remember one time we asked volunteers, we were like, who wants to help us build some shelves? And then eight dudes just came all, like, under 30 and didn't even talk to me. They, like, said hi, and then just built shelves for two hours.

[A]

And they're also something. Building things is really important.

[B]

Himbos for good. So, Kat, where exactly is the manosphere? If I were to, for some ludicrous reason, seek it out? There are pockets on the regular Internet that I unfortunately stumble upon on the reg. But, like, where are the hardcore dudes congregating in lieu of, like, a beautiful Mansonesque compound?

[C]

IRL places that have really fuzzy human trafficking laws, Places that allow a lot of freedom in various bullshit supplements that you create. Like, if they don't have a lot of regulation over, say, steroids or sh. Put in a smoothie. They love being there. I'd also say Miami.

[B]

Okay, what about online spaces?

[C]

You have a whole range of places. First off, obviously X, formerly known as Twitter, the child porn site. If you're still on there, I'd recommend getting off. You also have a lot of forums. There are lots of incel forums that get taken down and then pop back up. There used to be a lot more incel focused subreddits, actually. This is sad. I was looking at one for work, and one of the mods, mods put out a suicide note. And I DM'd him and was like, hey, let's talk. And we talked for a while, and then he just stopped responding. And then I DM the mods of the incel subreddit, and they were like, you're a woman. We don't give a fuck what you say. Horrible, horrible shit. And then, like, Two weeks later, there was all this controversy because they were like, how did we not know he killed himself? Because, like, they don't give a fuck about anything except hate. They're motivated by hate.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Like, when we were talking about potential, like, I think that's what it is of, like, it doesn't have to be this way. But, yeah, I mean, like, social media is a cesspool. YouTube algorithms are made to radicalize you. I've looked up, like, Harry Potter braiding tutorials, and then, like, within two clicks, you end up on some white nationalist Celtic ancestry hair tutorial.

[A]

You know, the Wikipedia game where you try to find some random thing in as few clicks as possible through, like, hyperlinks on other Wikipedia pages. You, like, give someone a really innocent place on YouTube and it's like, how fast can you find your way to white supremacist content? And I know the pipeline. If you start with hair braiding tutorials, it's a hop, skip, and a jump, because right there is Mormon stuff.

[C]

I just have thick hair.

[B]

Yeah. I just have, like, Irish curls. It's just flat on the top and wavy on the bottom. And I need help.

[C]

You're like, I'm just trying to keep my hair off my neck. Stop trying to make me a Nazi.

[B]

Actually, I'm not trying to shave it all off.

[A]

Liz, where have you seen specifically these dudes gathering or heard of them? Gathering?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, X for sure. Good old Reddit 4chan Discord. You know, these more like dark social media channels. There's a bunch of ones on the Truth Social. I can't keep up which ones are sort of out there. But it's multiplied, you know, and it's really interesting, your point about X and what's happening with TikTok and its purchase and changes to people's data and them tracking your immigration status and just it being owned by MAGA people, essentially, or MAGA sympathizers is driving people away from the platform. So, I mean, my dream is that we all eventually leave. They all become cesspools, and then maybe we all just go outside and talk to each other.

[A]

Do you think that the manosphere dudes should have some kind of, like, this

[B]

is a terrible suggestion. You were gonna suggest some kind of culty retreat boot camp where they become better. Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, should they have a meetup?

[C]

If only they were in more of an echo chamber.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If they could perceive the twinkle in one another's eyes and, like, the quiver of one another's lips, maybe they would kiss each Other and maybe everything would be okay. They could do a craft.

[D]

There was a clip going sort of around from an interview of a CEO where the guest was saying, you know, we need an intervention with this male loneliness crisis because bad things are going to start happening. And literally if you don't go hug a man right now, shit is going to be bad. And it's like, who needs to hug men?

[A]

Men need to hug men, right? Like, women are kind of already hugging

[D]

you and it's clearly not working often. Even when I think there's well intentioned people who are talking about the manosphere and talking about the male loneliness crisis and just talking about men in general, there's a lot of we need to do this and we need to do that and it's kind of, you know, I think we need to be specific. It's not actually women's responsibility to sleep with men that they don't want to sleep with, to reproduce with men they that aren't safe to reproduce with in order to sort of fix men. I think that actually perpetuates not finding a solution when you think the solution is outside yourself and the dismantling of the patriarchy. Again, women have tried, we are tried, and it's very hard to sort of destroy a system that isn't yours and that you're not upholding. So I think men need to be told how much responsibility they have and how much purpose they have in this moment. I think it's actually a positive thing. It's not saying, you know, oh, fuck you and I and like, you gotta pick yourself up by the bootstraps. It's like you have a really big effect to your point, you have privilege and here's what you can do with it.

[A]

Yeah, I know. It's like how kids need like a really constructive after school activity to keep them from getting into trouble because it gives them like, purpose and it fills their time. And like, you could also fill your time by joining a cult and doing weird shit and that is what they're doing. Or you could, you know, build sets for the school play.

[C]

So I want all these manosphere men to go to your local elementary or middle school and ask if you can help build sets for the school play.

[A]

My advice is so bad. But to Liz's point, I don't know how to fix a system that isn't mine. All I know is how to podcast about it. And with that I have another question. So the manosphere, we've been mentioning that their primary mission surrounds like, feelings of hate and whatever but they have constructed a culture around that center of hate. And part of that culture involves a good old culture culty symbol. They love their culty symbols, including say Pepe the frog and the Wojack and the red pill. And so I was wondering, Liz and Kat, if you could each pick a manosphere culty symbol and try to make sense of it.

[C]

Okay. This is exactly like what I've spent my career looking at and talking about. Here's my whole thing about all this shit. Like the wojacks, Pepe, all of that. Fascists don't understand all art. And like the manosphere is inherently tied to fascism. The feeling that you're weak. So you try so hard to feel like you're strong or to project to people that you're strong. And so you have these like viscerally unappealing designs that are like, ugh, when you look at them. Like some of those like wojacks that are like, literally you'll have entire photo galleries in these guys phones so they can just post them all the time. They're so repulsive. And I think a lot of this is kind of how AI art artists, I use that term very, very generously, get mad when people are like real artists, don't understand that this is the next wave. Not being tied to the culture, to like general culture or to the people around you, and then also to art and not being able to understand art because it inherently requires an understanding of empathy means that you have this shit and that's their entire culture. It's why they love AI generated art, which once again, I am using that term very generously.

[A]

And why they loved NFTs, why they love Joe Rogan's logo, or why they

[C]

loved when Elon Musk just put that like kind of gritty filter over the X logo and they were like, this is so manly.

[B]

Just shortcuts to like approximating humanity.

[A]

Yeah, this explains so much. Okay, I swear this is like semi relevant. But this also explains why like men's houses are so ugly.

[C]

Yes, yes. And also because that punishing of vulnerability also includes art and like artistic endeavors. And this isn't the case all over the world. Of course, patriarchy is in every society. But you know, I'm Arab and there's a lot of intimacy between Arab men in terms of like, this is, you know, someone in your life that like you kiss on the cheek, you know, that you go out and hang out with like go get tea, smoke, hookah, whatever it may be. And I just think that not understanding art and being trained From a young age that your worth is in your physicality is really bad, Bad again.

[A]

I'm coming back to, like, school plays. Like, everybody just needs to do theater.

[B]

Everybody needs to do theater. The death of homosocial culture and creation of the heterosexual marriage has destroyed everything. We just need to go back.

[C]

We make all the boys girls, all the girls boys, and then we'll figure out what happens after that. Trans everybody is what I'm saying.

[B]

Everybody needs to go read Women with Mustaches, Men without beards.

[A]

Okay, periodical reading list. Liz, do you have a favorite manosphere symbol?

[D]

I mean, there's like, the looks maxing, I guess. It's the latest one that I've really been mesmerized by with particularly this really big streamer called Clavicular, who uses a hammer to hammer his jaw to get it to be more defined and look like a chad. Another term from the manosphere. And I just find that really sort of fascinating, you know, and coming back to your point about men's houses are ugly, I was also having this conversation with a man on my podcast recently about just the way that men kind of don't take care of themselves and often will start taking care of themselves when they're dating a woman. That's when maybe they'll get a pillow, you know, maybe they'll get a bed frame, maybe they will own conditioner. You know, there's just, like, things that start happening. And someone was telling you that women kind of have more experience nurturing themselves and taking care of themselves because society

[A]

is not gonna do it for us.

[C]

Sure.

[D]

And also, we just go to the doctor more. We wear more sunscreen. We get into less riskier accidents. We just are sort of different. Nurture and nature are probably both at hand here. And so there's this sort of expectation then that women are, again, meant to take care of men in conversations around sexuality, that women are these guardrails. Right. And I was talking to a friend of mine, Keith Edwards, on my podcast, and he was talking about Grindr and just gay guys and how hooking up happens. And he was like, you know, when it's two guys, there's just no one to kind of be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So it's just sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex. Like, it's just kind of like a free for all. And it sort of reminds me of the way that women have this sort of unspoken responsibility. I mean, unspoken, invisible, I guess. Invisible labor that they're sort of expected to do in their relationships with men and in society at large. You know, coming back to the way that people talk about the male loneliness crisis or talk about, you know, you all need to go hug a hug a man. Implied in that is it's somehow women's job.

[B]

Job.

[C]

I also think it's the reason that, like, men are, like, every woman's pretending to be bisexual now because, like, women are more comfortable openly saying they're bisexual. And I think it's because we have a lot of intimacy with our friends and, like, we have less judgment. It's the same reason that, like, lesbians have been able to avoid homophobic crusades for centuries. Because, I mean, sexism, but also just because, like, I think there are a lot more bisexual men, but they get punished because it's seen as, like, gay or feminine. And I think that it's not fake for women to say that. I say, as one of them, we're not punished for vulnerability. That might must suck.

[B]

Yeah. Homosocial behavior amongst women is not punished, I do think, in part because it is attractive to men. Yes.

[C]

Also, that. Also that fact being.

[B]

Ew.

[A]

The male gaze looms large, like, sour on.

[C]

We're failing the Bechdel test every single minute of this.

[A]

Oh, should we go back to talking about braids?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what? I will say this podcast, like, almost always passes the Bechdel test because I'm not really interested in men.

[C]

No. It's like my Spotify wrapped every year. There is never a man on that list.

[A]

Oh, that's a plex.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[A]

Safeway and Albertsons have made saving easier than ever with great savings on family favorites this week. 16 ounce sweet strawberries are two for $5 member price. And don't miss the incredible deal on Signature Select. Boneless skinless chicken breast value packs for $2.97 per pound limit. One plus medium avocados or mangoes are five for $5 member price. Fresh and delicious savings for every meal. Hurry in. These deals won't last. Visit Safeway or albertsons.com for more deals and ways to save. Okay. I just can't stop thinking about the relationship between patriarchy and masculinity and taste in art. And I'm just thinking, like, probably people in the manosphere think it's gay to have a rug.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, undoubtedly. Yeah.

[C]

To have hand talent.

[D]

It's gay to be trying to attract women again. Looks maxing. You know, it's weirdly for the male gaze, like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

No, it's actually trying to look like Timothee Chalamet.

[A]

You know, whose jaw is ultimately the most snatched.

[C]

Yeah, no, it absolutely is. It's also, there's so many words in our vernacular that come from, like, incel culture, like Chads and Stacy's and things like that.

[A]

You're speaking my language right now. I mean, the wojack is used in, like, neoliberal spaces as, like, a doomer symbol.

[C]

But, like, all of this is based on, like, the male gaze. Like, in terms of what they think that women that, like, men want, when in reality we just want, like, a dude that makes us laugh really hard and then, like, also will go down on us. Will go down on us, kill us, and won't kill us. And also doesn't turn on the big light or can be trained into not turning on the big light.

[A]

Oh, oh, right. Like, is it gay to have a little side lamp?

[C]

That is gay.

[B]

Ladies, get with the lighting designer. He will always want very many tiny lamps everywhere. He will want too many lights. He will try to light max your

[C]

life, and that would be your new problem. Also, I love the idea of looks maxing when it's, like, just trying to seem attractive, which, like, women look smacks every day. So that way we could, like, get a job. They're just inventing things.

[A]

It's my favorite thing when men. Well, men are famously bad at inventing language. It's not their thing. You can trust that the manosphere is not innovating effectively with language, but they do come up with words. Well, they come up with words that don't stick because they're just synonyms for things that we already have words for. Like, looks. Maxing is, you know, we already have. Ha. Like, getting dressed.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Or, you know, biohacking. That's just like taking a vitamin. And to bring it back to cultishness, all of this is an attempt at building what I think is an ultimately pretty unsatisfying culture. But I'm fascinated by the ways in which the manosphere's language creates an us versus them dichotomy and discourages critical thinking and puts their cognitive dissonance that I'm sure they're feeling scores of to bed. Could you each talk about some of the most insidious, hideous pieces of manosphere lingo you've come across and how they contribute to this cult.

[D]

The men who are at the helm of the manosphere telling men that they're going to get them laid with women are men who don't like women. It's really that simple. That Nick Fuentes is a virgin who

[C]

said that sleeping with women is gay, by the way.

[D]

Yes, sleeping with women is gay. So that's the end point. And that's who you are. You want to be. So it's really, I think, confusing and it's really dumb. And Andrew Tate similarly dislikes women. I mean, interviewed Breeze Stern, the woman who dated him and who is suing him for battery and assault. And just judging by her experience and the experience of so many other women, I mean, this is a guy who just really doesn't like women. And I think we're used to saying, like, oh, they hate women, they hate women. But, like, you don't like us. That's the gayest thing I've ever heard. So the manosphere is gay. That's just my take. And I think a lot of guys should just be gay. Like, it's fine, and that's okay.

[C]

Just be gay.

[D]

Just be gay. Don't make it our problem that you don't want to be gay or you're afraid to be gay. So, yeah, I think a lot of our problems come down to men just not being gay. And I think they just should live their best gay life and leave us the fuck alone.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're doing a lot of linguistic gymnastics to avoid that fact and emotional gymnastics.

[D]

I mean, I've had my fair share of men who will really manipulate and gaslight their way to just never look at the mirror. And it's pretty astounding.

[A]

Kat, you got some culty lingo from the manosphere. You want to roast for a sec?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of, like, what's insidious? I think two of the most insidious things, or first off, the idea of black pill of, like, everything is bad and it will never be better and just feeding off of this hopelessness. I don't recommend this, but if you've ever gone into, like, online incel communities, they're extremely, extremely depressing. And it keeps this vicious cycle where you're just like, oh, yeah, everything is bad. It's never gonna get better, and I'm never gonna get my dick wet. And it's like, with any type of bigotry, you, like, meet someone of that group and you take two seconds outside of this echo chamber and you're like, oh, like, there are so many get downvoted to shit on incel forums. Being like, I don't know. Girl in my class was really nice. She was my project partner and we've been talking and we might go see a movie, and I don't know if we're gonna date. I just. I'm really excited to have, like, a friend and then everyone being like, you're a disgrace. It's really dark. But also, this has gone farther than the manosphere and incel communities. But describing women as females.

[A]

Oh, my God, get me started.

[C]

The biggest red flag. Yeah, please.

[A]

I think it is either a subconscious or conscious attempt to reduce women to their physiology, their bodies.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Because, for example, when you think about the language choices that we use to describe sex versus gender, mammals and birds and fish and reptiles and all the

[C]

other name more animals. Do it, Amanda.

[A]

Non human animals. Okay. Non human animals. Is what I'm trying to say. Quite frustrating. Precisely. In the animal dam kingdom that don't have gender because gender is a construct, we don't refer to them as women because we're not acknowledging.

[C]

Right. We're not like that woman flamingo.

[A]

That is iconic. And ironically, my nickname for my female cat is woman because I think it's funny. And people do, I think, gender their animals in a human way and in a sort of anthropomorphizing way, say to. Because we want to feel closer to them. And it's like, funny. But you can just see that scientists are not out here calling, like, an insect a woman, but, like, we also say girl.

[C]

When people are like men and girls, that is also a red flag because it's the infantilization, it's the diminishment. I've been watching the vowel this week, weirdly, and there's a lot of that of, like, referring to women as girls and men as men. And when guys say female, especially when it just comes out like, I always correct them because that's an adjective, first off. Second, you don't say male. Like, if you say male and female, I'm okay with it, but it has to be on both sides, and they never do.

[A]

Can you imagine saying, like, I was talking to this male earlier and yeah,

[C]

I mean, we say boy all the time. And I'm cool with like, there needs to be, like, an equal footing here. If we're like, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, whatever. But when you are purposely only referring to one in diminished capacity, it's misogyny, Period.

[A]

Point blank. Okay, we've got a couple more questions for you. And then we want to play a game. Could each of you tell us from your perspectives about some of the different sub sects, denominations, if you will, within the manosphere and how they're organized? I'm wondering if there's like, maybe a pecking order for example, when you think about like men's rights activists versus the pickup art artists versus, like the no FAP guys.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of different denominations and subgroups and like ethnicities of the manosphere. So you've got things that are way more severe and scary, like the incel or involuntary celibate community. But you also have guys that watch Jordan Peterson and for some reason were amazed when he was like, you should make your bed. And they were like, whoa, fuck, I didn't think of that. You've got like Joe Rogan Bros. That are a lot more like Normie, which is also from incel vocabulary but now has come into like our lexicon. You have guys that their entire thing is guns. You have the pickup artist community, which has like diminished a lot. I think it's making like a minor resurgence, but like, it's not like 2010 anymore. You know, there's a lot of it. I think that comes from self help. I remember I used to date this guy who was just like so into self help books and spent all of his time reading these self help books and then not actually doing anything from them because it was like the action of doing the self help book. And I think that that's a big gateway to the manosphere and this idea of like making yourself better. Because there are a lot of guys that want to improve themselves, that see that their life is not satisfying in one way or another. A lot of it's because of capitalism. And our entire society has been engineered to not make you question that. And so, yeah, I think that it ranges. And a lot of it, like a lot of guys are subtly in the manosphere, whether or not they realize it. And then there are ones who like, that's their whole thing. That's all they think about. That's all they do. They're like Elon Musk. They just want to like breed their co workers or whatever, or they think it's gay to fuck women or they fall into a right wing rabbit hole. A lot of these are just gateways between either the manosphere or far right fast fascism. Well, all fascism is far right, but you know what I mean?

[D]

I don't have anything to add. That was a really good explanation. I think at this point you almost have to actively try not to get sucked into the manosphere if you're a man and you're consuming videos or you're on a social media platform. I mean, I think Laura Bates talks about this. It takes sort of seven seconds for a guy to be shown softcore porn or some sort of violence against women or some sort of AI slop of a woman. Like it's almost a sort of current. And if you don't want to get dragged into that, I think you actively have to train your algorithm for them. Right. And I think that makes me sort of feel better in a way that a lot of these men didn't start off that way. Right. I truly do see these men, yes, in many cases as like perpetrators, but like ultimately they're victims. You know, if you go back to bell hooks, it's like the first victims of the patriarchy are men and then they weaponize it and it turns into something else and then women get victimized by them. Right. And that's where I get really angry too, because all of those platforms are run by men. And so again, we have to make changes. We need better algorithm. Who is in charge. It's not a woman. Like there's not a woman pulling the strings who's making these decisions. It's actually a very small number of men. And I think about this a lot with coming back to Kat's point about the things that are no longer or less and less available to men because of capitalism and those five guys who are hoarding all of the money. I think a lot about feminism I write about, I read a lot about it, and there's a lot of talk about the gender gap, right. The difference between sort of men and women and inequality there. There's a growing conversation about the gap between white women and women of color generally, or immigrant women and that more granular conversation. But there's actually a bigger gap between men than there is between women. There's a lot of inequality between women.

[C]

Right.

[D]

And we need to talk about it more. But between the most rich guy and the least rich guy, like there's a big, big difference. And I think that that is actually powering so much, much of this. And it comes back to magical thinking. Right. I can be Elon Musk. Even though you're not, you know, like,

[C]

like, and you should be glad about that, you should be happy about that, but.

[D]

Meaning you can be a billionaire, but it's a lottery. And that's kind of what that is. You know, it's like, well, maybe. And so I'll just stick around in case it happens to me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, there are so many cult parallels like to be made about the analysis that you two have. Just very coherent, coherently expressed. And I think what you're both getting at with the self help comments and the magical thinking of, like, you're at the bottom now, but you could be Elon Musk. I mean, it truly is no wonder that the manosphere is really unfolding in such a culty way in the United States, which is like. I mean, our entire culture was set up for this. Like, the self help industry is based on American dream philosophy, the Protestant ethic, Calvinism. Like, we've done episodes on the self help industry and so many different offshoots of it. And I never thought about the manosphere her as like a sort of subsect of self help in a way, this sort of like dark underbelly of self help.

[C]

But it is.

[B]

Well, that's what's scary about it to me is that it's like, no matter what kind of content you consume as a man, you'll find your way to it. My boyfriend is as left as they come, and he shows me stuff. He gets on his algorithms all the time, mostly just so we can laugh at it. But even I tell him, like, you have to be careful with the extent to which you're ironically engaging with this content because you're training the algorithm to feed you more of it. And Lord knows it's. It's already difficult enough to get it to show you anything else.

[C]

I distress that to my dad because he watches a lot of YouTube and he like downloaded TikTok to watch my videos, which is very sweet, but I was like, you have to be careful because, like these algorithms, especially because anger, you're a lot more likely to interact with something if it makes you angry, whether it's leaving a comment, whether it's sharing it with someone. Algorithms reward that.

[B]

So what are some of the entry and exit costs that you've seen with regards to Manosphere membership?

[D]

I don't know if this is a good parallel, but I wrote a book called for the Love of Men that was basically what I've been talking about, which is, you know, the patriarchy hurts men and men have a stake in the gender revolution. And I interviewed this ex gang member. He ended up in a maximum security prison. I mean, just like a through and through, you know, quote unquote criminal. And he described sort of the way that he fell into a gang, which I think. I mean, the manosphere is a cult. It's also kind of a gang too, right? But the way he described falling into a gang, the way that someone would describe falling in love, it was not the way that I thought it would be.

[B]

Right.

[D]

That this person had a really abusive childhood, didn't have Traditional means to income and again, protecting or providing. And the gang offered the sense of community, as we all know. And it comes back to that, that these spaces really sort of provide that. And I think a lot about it as sort of anything, which is sometimes the thing you want is going to feel good in the short term. The thing you need is going to be maybe harder in the long term, but at the end of the day, you know, has higher long term benefits. And what I see with the manosphere is like, yeah, what you benefit from is like you immediately get, everything's fine, you're great. Everything that's wrong in your life is because of women or because of immigrants. Right. Or because of insert. So, wow, that feels good. If I'm depressed, isolated, sad, white guy, living with my parents in a basement, wow, that feels good. But eventually what you lose is, is everything. Because that's actually so disempowering that the locus to your happiness and what's wrong with your is outside of yourself. So there's nothing you can do about it. And so I think you definitely gain a lot. In the short term. It feels good, just like a drug, right? Like, oh, I'm high, this feels great. But then the high gets, you know, I think increasingly a little less high. And then eventually you're just still depressed. And that's why these men are still in these cha. You know, they're not gaining enlightenment at the end of that journey.

[C]

Yeah, I think that's really, really insightful. I also think like, there's this idea of like sunk costs. You know, you don't have this community and then you're going in, you're like, well, these are my only friends. Because I've probably alienated a lot of people in my. For this or because I've spent a shit ton on like these shitty supplements and books and if they don't work, then why did I do it the first place? And like, I grew up Republican. I talk about this a lot. It's not fun to admit that you're wrong about things. No human being likes doing it. I'm so impressed with my parents, like especially my mom, who grew up in a family that her mom is literally a GOP operative. And at like 55, was like, oh, I believed a lot of actively like incorrect things and also some kind of shitty things and then changed her mind. And that is way harder to do than a lot of people think. So I think like the benefits that you get are those short term highs and then leaving ultimately improves your life. And I think Gives you a lot of empathy and a lot of perspective. But also there's shame. I talk a lot about the reason that I started to wonder if Ronald Reagan wasn't right about everything. It's because in high school, we moved to Tucson, Arizona, which is much less segregated by income than where I grew up in Dallas. And I had a friend who was, like, much smarter than me who couldn't afford to go to college. College. She wanted to be a doctor more than anything, but she couldn't afford it even with, like, a better GPA than me, even though she was, like, much more talented than me. And that just didn't make sense. And I was like, well, poor people should just save. Like, why aren't they just saving more? Because that's how you pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And there was a lot of shame realizing that, like, oh, that's not the reality. And even though I wasn't the one that, like, came up with that idea, it doesn't feel good. And so I think there's also that fear of, like, well, I'm here and I'm believing things that I realize are shitty, but how could I possibly get out?

[A]

I think what's so important to note about this particular cult is that, like, some of the online cults that we've analyzed on the show in the past, but with higher stakes, I think the entry and exit costs are all totally abstract. Like, you don't have to pay any money, you don't have to move your house and to leave. It's not like leaving Scientology. You're not going to. To have to, like, say goodbye to your doctor and everybody. Like, this whole, like, action.

[C]

I like how your first instinct was, like, your doctor.

[A]

Well, I mean, if you're a high up Scientologist, like, even your doctor is a Scientologist.

[C]

Like, it.

[A]

It just takes over your life in the manosphere.

[B]

We forget.

[A]

You can literally just log off.

[C]

You can just.

[B]

You don't have to see it.

[A]

Yeah, you don't have to see it. And when you're deep in that kind of, like, addiction spiral like Liz was describing, it's really, really hard, hard to see that. Our last question before our game is, what do you think is the worst case scenario here? Because Rhys and I are going to have to come up with a verdict to determine whether the manosphere is a live your life a watch your back or get the fuck out. I wonder what it'll be. And in order to truly make that decision, we want to know, like, what have you seen as like, the worst that this can really get.

[C]

We're in it. The worst case scenario is happening right now. Like, all these fucking ice cream agents are absolutely in these forums. It's why, you know, I've been beaten or, like, gassed or thrown by ice at least half a dozen times now. And every single time they can put their hands on me, they grab my chest. They grab me by my chest every time. They don't do that to my male friends.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[C]

The root of so much of fascism, so much of bigotry, so much of inequality is always and will always be misogyny.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's a great point. I hadn't thought about these I see agents. I. I hadn't thought about their extracurricular activities, but yeah, they're definitely like, on the.

[C]

I remember one time they. There was like, a guy on a roof and I was like, do you feel really big and strong in your army surplus gear? Do you feel, like, really cool and masculine? And he, like, nodded at me and I was like, no woman's gonna fudge you. And then he shot my feet with pepper balls from a roof. Like, that's just the definition. It's like that, that saying of, like, men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. 100%.

[D]

Yeah. And I think it's the Chapo guys who describe them as, like, it's an unemployable force going after employed people. I mean, right? Like, these ICE agents are the guys who don't have a job, right? Who don't have the skills to sort of do well in life and who end up having this power against people who do have fucking jobs and who aren't blaming other people for their fucking problems and actually picking themselves up by the bootstraps, right? Like, you know, I often think, as the worst case scenario is like, what's not the worst case scenario? To me, it's the ultimate consequence of the patriarchy. If you take the patriarchy to its full extent, it's bad for men, right? Like, bad for women. Again, is. Is the first stage, right? It's the obvious stage. It's the one we've been in for a really long time. And when I see what's going on, this is bad for men. Men aren't doing well.

[A]

Duh.

[D]

And I don't want to again, harp on this, but, like, when we say we aren't taking care of men, we really aren't. You know, it's like, who's the one we you know, yeah. Patriarchy sucks for men. Thinking that men don't need anything and that they must produce or else they're not worth anything. Like not having any kind of redistribution of wealth, not having funding.

[C]

Sorry.

[D]

But like, lasting. But even if you think about the male loneliness crisis is ultimately, you know, people say people don't care about men's mental health and we need to invest in men's mental health. Women vote for those things. Female politicians.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Are you actually going to go to therapy?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, tell me.

[D]

Like, it really is. Is infuriating. And I really believe this. And it's backed up by data. You know, men being exposed is a net positive. I'm not saying all women are great and not any women has been problematic or caused problems for men. But men who marry women live longer or healthier, go more to the doctor. Like, we know there's data. You're literally going to live longer.

[C]

But also part of it is because we've been forced to. Like, it's like when people are like, girls are so mature. I don't want to have to take care of someone like their mother.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know. Yeah.

[A]

No, men for sure need to take care of each other. I mean, the deaths of despair are highest among middle aged, unemployed, undereducated white men. And that's the patriarchy's fault. And on that note, we really, really want to play a game. Let's do it.

[B]

This is culty quotes. So we are going to give you a quote, and you are going to guess if it is from a leader of today's cult or a leader of a different cult. And you get bonus points if you guess who it is. Number one, Mr. President, you are one of the greatest Americans that has ever lived. I love you, Manosphere.

[D]

Yeah, that's like Tucker Carlson.

[C]

I mean, I think it's J.D. vance.

[B]

Manosphere. That's Nick Fuentes.

[C]

Oh, that checks out.

[D]

Because he's gay.

[C]

Because he's gay.

[D]

Because he's gay.

[C]

And that's fine.

[D]

Love him. You want to have sex with Donald county, that's fine. Just do a minute.

[A]

Sick. Next quote. Knowing what to do is useless without the emotional strength to do what you know.

[C]

I'm going to guess Manosphere. Jordan Peter Peterson.

[A]

So close. It was a cult leader and it was Keith Ranieri.

[C]

Oh, I was just watching the. The Vow like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But yeah, I am close.

[D]

You are close.

[B]

My act is so completely and totally uncensored that the only way I could really pull it off is if I treat the audience like they're my best friends.

[D]

That sounds almost too earnest for the manosphere. But that sounds like the manosphere. That sounds like.

[C]

It sounds like German Joe Rogan.

[D]

Yeah, like a flagrant podcast, like.

[A]

That's correct.

[D]

Joe Rogan.

[A]

Oh, my God. Spot on. Okay, next quote. We're in this period of time now, aren't we? But any day, it could be cut short in righteousness. No one knows when it'll be. It could be today, it could be tomorrow. You see, it could be next week.

[C]

L. Ron Hubbard.

[D]

Yeah, that sounds like a cult.

[A]

Yeah, that's a cult leader. And that was very specifically, David Kresh, the leader of the Branch Davidians of the Waco tragedy.

[B]

Ooh, deep cut.

[A]

Oh, my God. The next quote is, my unmatched perspicacity coupled with my sheer indefatigability combined to make me a feared opponent in any realm of human endeavor.

[C]

Andrew Tate.

[D]

Yeah, I was going to say Andrew Tate, and he, like, used, like, synonym dot com wrong for those words.

[A]

Correct?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Hell, yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Correct.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

And if anyone wants to know what either of those words mean, perspicacity just means, like, insightfulness and indefatigability. Well, the word fatigue is in that. It means inability to get tired. Tireless.

[C]

Right. Tirelessness. I take this as bigotry because I've narcoleptic, and I think that it's discrimination. Yeah.

[A]

Ooh. It's ableism.

[C]

It's ableism. Actually, the word indefatigability is ableism.

[A]

It's ableist because no one with a human mouth can pronounce that.

[B]

The mind is endless. You put me in a dark, solitary cell, and to you, that's the end. To me, it's the beginning. It's the universe in there. There's a world in there, and I'm free.

[D]

It's that boxer guy. One of the brothers.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[D]

Why am I. Yeah, those are both

[B]

such good guesses, and I'm so amused. That is Charles Manson.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Same thing.

[D]

Tomato, cheese. But different, you know, that's why this

[A]

game never gets old. Okay, last quote. I don't tell people you're okay the way that you are. That's not the right story. The right story is you're way less

[C]

than you could be Jordan Peterson.

[D]

Yeah, that does feel like it could be Jordan.

[B]

Wait.

[A]

You're so good at this. That's right.

[C]

This is my job. Amanda.

[A]

Holy shit. Kat, Liz, Liz, Kat. We can't thank you enough for joining this coven Conversation. If people want to keep up with you and what you're doing. Can you please tell us how?

[C]

Yeah. So I'm running for Congress. You can find out [e-mail] you know, if you can chip in, that's great. If you can volunteer on our Discord. Discord GG Cat for Illinois Phone banking. Door knocking. You can phone bank from anywhere. That'd be awesome. But most of all, if you know anyone that lives in the Chicago area, especially uptown, up to Evanston, West Tuskokie, all the way to Algonquin and cross Crystal Lake, please let them know about our campaign. I'm tied for first. I'm against two candidates who have met with and submitted position papers to AIPAC. APAC's about to drop a shit ton of attack ads against me. I'm under federal indictment because this like I have consistently been on the front lines protesting ice. I am just sick of how our politics is and I want a people led movement. I'm a grassroots candidate. Please text like five friends you know that live in Chicago about this and remind them that early voting starts to February 5th and election day is March 17th. Kat4illinois.com, Kat with a K F CK yeah, thanks for letting me to. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

I'm Liz Plank. I'm feminist tabulous on what social media platforms I I'll still be on by the time this comes out. Who knows? I'm on Instagram now. I'm still on TikTok, but I don't know if I'll be there much longer. I have a substack called Airplane Mode which was just featured in Dermoi, which was a pretty big deal to me. I still don't know how that ended up there, but it was very sweet and it's like a way to get the news being totally depressed. That's sort of the pitch for that. I have a book called for the Love of Men right behind me and I'm working on another one which will be available in a little bit about what do we do about men. I have a documentary called not so Special about disability rights coming out in a couple months. Oh, and I have a podcast called Boy Problems. Sorry, my real job is podcasting Boy Problems, which you can listen to wherever

[C]

you get your podcast.

[A]

Gorgeous. All right, Rhys, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back and get the out. Which do you think the cult of the manosphere might fall into? This is truly one of those break

[B]

the scale episodes where I wish there was a category worse than get the fuck out. We need like a Banish it. Banish it. Or something like all of the above.

[A]

It is the get the fuck outiest. Get the fuck out up there with anti vaxxers, incels, flat earthers, probably worse. I couldn't hate it more. I couldn't love it less. I was really grateful for Liz and Kat. They came guns ablaze into this combo and conversations like the one that we had with them make me feel like there's hope.

[B]

Is that delusional? Like, yeah. Although this mirage is big and powerful, it is still a mirage that we all can see.

[A]

Totally. Oh God. Well, that's our show.

[B]

Thank you so much for listening.

[A]

Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty but not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com.com sounds like a cult.

[C]

I just want y' all to know that my mom is like Yalls biggest fan and can I please shout her out? During the pod I covered the far right so like I'd always talk about cults and shit like that. And she fucking loves this podcast. It is her favorite podcast.

[A]

Wait Jordan include that?

[C]

Yeah, hold on. If y' all want to say Shout out to Susie. Like if y' all want to give Susie a shout out, my mom's the best Susie.

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[C]

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[B]

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[D]

Exhale.

[A]

Feel your body relax.

[D]

And let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[A]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry

[D]

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[C]

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[A]

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[D]

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[C]

Oh, sorry. Namaste.

[A]

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