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- [00:00]
Amanda Montell
This episode is proudly sponsored by Article. I am such a long time fan of this brand. Recently I undertook the project of making over my back deck and I got me the chicest, most glorious outdoor L shaped couch and a beautiful wooden coffee table. Their pieces are incredibly high quality. The packaging is so meticulous. Everything came assembled. The craftsmanship is incredible. I think I'm going to have these pieces for the rest of my live long life. Truly, if you have any furniture and decor needs, I highly recommend Article because Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more. To claim, visit article.com cult and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com cult for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more when people hear that Mint Mobile plans are just 15 bucks a month, they often ask what's the catch? But I can tell you from personal experience there isn't one. Just unlimited talk, text and data, fast reliable coverage on the nation's large network and an award winning care team. Since switching to Mint, I have definitely noticed that the coverage is better and at such an affordable price. Hello, no brainer. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com cult that's mintmobile.com cult cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com cult that's it. There's no catch. $45 upfront payment required equivalent to 15 bucks a month new customers on first three month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes fees restrictions apply. C Mint Mobile for details the views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
- [01:49]
Amanda Kaur
Mentioned custom content earlier or cc. These are like methods for creators to have a more detailed control over the design of their sims and their houses. And while some are like really innocent, others include things like stuff, self harm and a DEI remover which removes LGBTQ plus and non white players from the game.
- [02:08]
Reese Oliver
Oh, I don't think we needed those ones guys.
- [02:11]
Amanda Kaur
No, they've done like a decent job at shutting down those modifications, but the fact that they are still like cropping up I think is demonstrative of a larger problem.
- [02:21]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, for sure. And I do think that that is a risk that you run when the crux of your game is that you can play God.
- [02:28]
Amanda Kaur
There are a lot of people who
- [02:29]
Reese Oliver
should not play God, this is Sounds like a Cult, A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Reese Oliver. Sounds like a Cult's resident rhetoric scholar.
- [02:39]
Amanda Kaur
And I'm Amanda Kaur, a writer and host of the this Feels Bi podcast and today's guest host.
- [02:45]
Reese Oliver
Every single week on the show we discuss a different fringe group or guru that puts the cult in culture, from Trader Joe's to Tradwifes. To try and answer the big question,
- [02:54]
Amanda Kaur
this group sounds like a cross, but is it really?
- [03:04]
Amanda Montell
And if so, which of our cult
- [03:06]
Reese Oliver
categories does it fall into? Live your life, watch your back, or get the fuck out.
- [03:12]
Amanda Kaur
Because on this podcast we believe that cults and cultish thinking fall on a spectrum. And not all cults are bad like they romance novels or Bad Bunny. But some modern groups are reimagining control tactics in this day and age and are far more influential and dangerous, like Joe Rogan in a manosphere.
- [03:30]
Reese Oliver
Or perhaps a cult of glowing plumbobs, immaculate wallpaper, altars and whispered simlish promises of perfect control, clandestine romance, and maybe a little pixelated chaos. Yeah, baby. We're talking Cult of the Sims, a phenomenon of nostalgic fixation in modern fandom that's been captivating and occasionally baffling players from for decades. So, Amanda, I am so thrilled to have you here. Tell us a little bit about why you're here to gab about the Sims today.
- [04:00]
Amanda Kaur
Well, first of all, I'm a longtime listener of the pod, big fan, and I'm also now a podcaster myself, and I'm Amanda Montel's best friend. She asked if I would jump in on this episode because she knows I am in fact in the Cults of the Sims. So that's why I'm here. And what a thrill. I have lots of opinions about the Sims. I first got into them, I think, as a lot of millennial girly pops did in middle school.
- [04:28]
Reese Oliver
Them as in like the Sims, as like beings, not the games. Like, I felt that was like them as a race. I enjoyed that. Anyway, continue.
- [04:35]
Amanda Kaur
I mean, we do have our own language, which we'll certainly get into. You know, it was this era of when your friends had like desktop computers and you would go over to their house after school and you would like sit next to them at the family desktop or whatever and just like watch them play games. And I remember the Sims being a very mischief driven experience at that age. I really latched onto this idea of playing God. Like, yes, I would build houses in the Sims, which is kind of like what it's known for. But I would also do more of the risque things that I feel like those of us who know the Sims associate with the Sims, like drowning people in pools or making them woohoo, which is the Sims version of sex. So that's how I began my journey into the Sims.
- [05:22]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, I feel like the Sims is such a perfect space for curious little middle schoolers to essentially be like, what are all the things we can't do in real life that we can make these little fake people do? It's funny, my introduction to the Sims is actually very similar. I was watching my middle school best friend play the Sims, and I never played or got it for myself, but I would watch her play and I would watch Dan and Phil play online, and both of those things together were kind of my introduction to the Sims. So to this day, I still think the concept of playing was a little overwhelming. When I was a kid with the Dollhouse, I liked to set up the furniture, and then the people overwhelmed me. It was too much. And I think the Sims kind of invoked a similar anxiety in me. So I was very much the I'll watch you play Sims.
- [06:01]
Amanda Kaur
And if you were playing, you were like a builder. You were like, I'm going to decorate this room and I'm not going to worry about the people in it.
- [06:08]
Reese Oliver
Okay. So that's like you would say a valid way to play Sims.
- [06:12]
Amanda Kaur
That people do 1000%. I feel like the Sims falls into two categories. The people who, like, love the design aspect of it, and then the people who, like, actually utilize the gameplay of it. And I know both. I've seen the types in my day.
- [06:27]
Reese Oliver
And because there are so many culty corners, the video game world, the Sims feels like a safe way into this culty category of culture. And I'm curious how you think the Sims is culty, even though it might look super innocent and wholesome on its face.
- [06:42]
Amanda Kaur
So the first thing that comes to mind is the money. The Sims are constantly coming out with expansion packs, and they all cost like 40 bucks unless you get like, they have, like, kits which are a little bit less expensive. But for the most part, every couple of months an expansion pack comes out. And the way that it's marketed it makes it seem like your Sims experience would be incomplete without this new pack. And that pressure to just like, continuously buy into the cults of Sims, if we're labeling it a cult, the pressure to like, always buy into it, that reminds me of a lot of like, modern day MLMs and that sort of Thing. Also, there's one aspect of the Sims that I think is both good and potentially dangerous. So anecdotally I will say that I think the main demographic of Sims users are women and queer people. And one of the reasons for that is the game is about relationships and relational power. So there's a lot of space for identity building. And the Sims themselves are very queer friendly. You can have a gender non binary sim, you can be a polyamorous sim. So it's a fun place to like, like try on these different hats and be able to express yourself in different ways. But on the flip side, it also, like, as I mentioned, really glamorizes consumerism and also this idea of creating the ideal human. There's always more stuff, there's always more makeup, and typically you need to like, buy those things to make that happen. And also there's this like, thing called the gallery, which is where you can download and play with Sims or houses that people have already created. And you'll notice that like the most popular ones are always like Barbie doll girls. They're like super thin. It's like Instagram Facebook Sims.
- [08:26]
Reese Oliver
Oh, that makes me sad. And I do think it is those two things put together because I think having such a free space for like identity exploration could be such an opportunity for, I don't know, just like growth and progress. And I think it is for a lot of people and I think a lot of people find a safe space in it. But hearing that not only like the consumerism bit attached to it, but also I think there is something about getting so particular in your creation of other people that I think can maybe create some unhealthy self image. I think if you're, if you're projecting your life onto these Sims and these Sims into your life. And I think as you're buying more expansion packs and making the Sims world bigger, I think it's very likely that your world might be getting smaller or more engrossed to the Sims world.
- [09:06]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, that's such a good point. And I think that's a common trap we see with video games and computer games. But the reason why it's like extra dangerous with the Sims is you can build like a castle. And I always think, like, oh my God, if VR, like makes it so that I can be a witch and play in a castle, like, I'm gone.
- [09:24]
Reese Oliver
All they need to do was like, give women the pencil. And
- [09:30]
Amanda Kaur
give women the pencil. It's so real. It's so real. It could be tempting to just like disappear into your Pencil world.
- [09:36]
Reese Oliver
No, it really can. All of the differing expansion packs and the differing, like, fantasy worlds, and it's so customizable. Build your own. It really reminds me of the cult of fan fiction in that regard. And I think that's something very wholesome and nice about it, where it's like literally just, here's a space to make a world you don't have and you can just have it all your own. And it can all be nice if you would like it to, but it can also be kind of sadistic if you want it to. And yeah, I think there's that flip side 1000%.
- [10:01]
Amanda Kaur
One of my friends pirated every single expansion pack for the Sims and because of that, she doesn't like, fully know what she bought into. It was like, press the button to download and pirate all of them and she would like be playing and a werewolf would show up at her house. One of her male characters got abducted by aliens and then pregnant, like diseases were spreading. And she was like, what the fuck is going on?
- [10:25]
Reese Oliver
You know, that's such a chaotic way to play. And I don't know if I respect it or if I'm scared of it. Can you give our listeners a little bit of a history of the Sims for those of us, like me, who
- [10:36]
Amanda Kaur
are unfamiliar, I would love to. So for those of you who may be unfamiliar, the Sims is a series of life simulation video games developed by Maxis and published by Electronic Arts. The franchise has sold nearly 200 million copies worldwide and is one of the best selling video game series of all time. So if you want to, like, go back in time a little bit and see how all of this began. It was part of a larger Sims series started by SimCity in 1989 by programmer Will Wright. And by 1992, SimCity had sold an estimated of 1 million copies and was, according to an article on mental Floss, quote, the vanguard of an entirely new genre of computer game designed around building something rather than destruction or battle. It's wholesome, you know, you're just designing. You get to play baby architect. So after seeing the success of SimCity, because that was like, incredibly loved, Wright had the idea to make another game. But instead of this one being about the city, it would be about a house and the people who lived inside of them. Similar to the SimCity, there would be a focus on building, but the new game would offer an entirely different method of gameplay. So, yeah, like, users could build houses and make it all cottage corn cute, like we would love to do. But they could also play as the people who lived inside them. And this gameplay eventually earned it, like the name Dollhouse. It went on to become the Sims later, but the first version of the game's name was Dollhouse. And fun fact. Also, according to Mental Floss, the Dollhouse game was originally just about building. But then when Will Wright's house caught on fire and he lost all of his possessions, he realized that it was people in relationships that matter the most, not just material items. Oh, cold. I know. I think of, like, these cold figures who have had tragedies happen in their lives, and then they're like, kind of psyched that the tragedy happened because they can use that to manipulate people.
- [12:37]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. I'm also getting vibes of, like, all of the new AI assistants and friends and substitutions for real people that these tech bros are building. And it's just like, oh, wow. Like, you're really, in a very weird way, coming back around to the idea that we need connection and you just don't know how to express that. That's sad.
- [12:56]
Amanda Kaur
That's so real. Because if Will writes like it's people in relationships that matter, you would think he would like, I don't know, become a therapist. But instead he decided to create a game that isolates people.
- [13:06]
Reese Oliver
Isolates people and allows you to completely control all of the relationships that occur in the game. Healthy.
- [13:12]
Amanda Kaur
And for a while, nobody liked this idea.
- [13:15]
Reese Oliver
Okay.
- [13:15]
Amanda Kaur
And Right. Had trouble developing the game because nobody thought anybody would want to play where you, quote, clean toile for fun. Surprise. I loved it. And it wasn't until 1997, when Maxis was purchased by EA Games, that he was able to actually develop the project. Right. And the developers assigned the Sims traits like hunger, fun and bladder relief, which all eventually factored into their general quality of life. Wright also created a unique language for the Sims, known today as Simlish. That means hello for you.
- [13:51]
Reese Oliver
Love that.
- [13:52]
Amanda Kaur
I know. I, like, want to go up to people and be like, so.
- [13:54]
Reese Oliver
So I think that's a good cult. I don't want to say dog whistle, but because whatever, a positive version of that is. A little culty green flag. A little plumbob above your head.
- [14:03]
Amanda Kaur
My sweet little plumbob. Okay. Also, another fun fact is when presenting the game at the Electronic Entertainment Expo in 1999, programmer Patrick J. Barrett was tasked with creating the code to show three scenes of the game. One of those scenes was from a heterosexual wedding. Wedd are a big deal in Sims world where a man and a woman kissed, as they are want to do at heterosexual weddings. But Barrett didn't have enough time to code every character's background information. And so the background Sims were just going to enact their free will or do whatever they want. And even though EA Games was initially against showing LGBTQ relationships, E.W. barrett never got around to actually preventing this happening through code. So two of the lady Sims and enacted their free will at this wedding. And to celebrate the love of the married couple, they hardcore made out in the middle of the presentation. And it made Sims the talk of
- [15:07]
Reese Oliver
the expo, honestly, like, as they should. And I think that that says something really metaphorical and important about homophobia and about, like, we're all a little gay until it's put into our code not to be. Come on.
- [15:18]
Amanda Kaur
I love that metaphor that you've drawn from it. That's so good. Yeah, yeah. And the fact that, like now Sims takes a lot of pride in the fact that you can like, customize your gender so intricately. And it kind of like started questionably on an accident. I don't know. I kind of like have this theory that Patrick J. Barrett, like, quote, unquote, I forgot. Yeah. Everyone's like, no queer. And then they see like two girls making out and they're like, oh, I'll buy the game.
- [15:48]
Reese Oliver
I'll buy two copies.
- [15:50]
Amanda Kaur
I know it's like it ended up having, I think, positive results, but. But yeah, it is demonstrative of some
- [15:55]
Reese Oliver
bad behavior, of course. Tell us about how the Sims continued.
- [15:59]
Amanda Kaur
So the success and notoriety went on in 2000 to sell 16 million copies and was the best selling PC game in the four years following its release until the Sims 2 came out in 2004. The Sims 3 came out in 2009, followed by the Sims 4 and 2014. And in between these larger games were expansion packs for things like parties, dates, vacations, and even the occult. As of today, the Sims has sold over 200 million copies worldwide.
- [16:29]
Reese Oliver
Wow. They're like presidential administrations. Like every four or five years they're like, here's a new one.
- [16:34]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah. And there's a lot of not unlike our current administration criticism because they're not going to come out with a Sims 5. Like, they're just going to keep adding to Sims 4. And a lot of people have grief with that.
- [16:48]
Reese Oliver
I mean, at a certain point there's only so much you can do. Right? Like, there's only so many more new features you can add before it's going to start. Like not working on people's computers anymore.
- [16:57]
Amanda Kaur
Oh, girl. Yeah.
- [16:58]
Reese Oliver
And I mean, I also think there's something to the cultishness of the expansion pack model and the in app purchase model. The fact that it's not just like a. You buy it once and you get all of the upgrades, whereas the Sims makes a lot more money selling you each of those upgrades individually, essentially. So I theorize that might factor in.
- [17:15]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, capitalism got its claws.
- [17:19]
Reese Oliver
It do. And speaking of, we spoke about it a little bit earlier, but tell us some more about the entry and exit costs of playing the Sims.
- [17:27]
Amanda Kaur
So it's a little tricky. The entry cost, it's kind of free. The base game for the Sims 4 is free to play, which honestly, now that I'm saying this out loud, kind of sounds like very culty.
- [17:37]
Reese Oliver
It's so mlm. Take the sample.
- [17:39]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, it's free. But then once you start playing it again, like makes you think you need expansion packs. And total costs can skyrocket with numerous expansion packs, game packs and kits with individual add ons typically ranging from 499 to 39.99. And those sales are common. Owning everything could cost well over a thousand dollars at least. And they come out with new merchandise a lot. So you can end up spending a lot of money on this game.
- [18:07]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, I feel like the fact that they're selling it to you in little five dollar to 40 doses, it's so nefarious. I mean it's, it's not anything specific to the Sims, I think, but I mean maybe, maybe in some ways it is. I, I can't think of a lot of games that come out with quite as many different expansion packs just for funsies or anything like that.
- [18:25]
Amanda Kaur
That. Yeah, and they come out really, really frequently. Like I feel like every time I, because I play Sims on my video game console or like my. It also controls like my movies and TV and all that. And I'll get advertisements for it and I will like play Sims for a couple of weeks and then like put it down. It's like the game that I play when I'm PMSing or sick or something like that. And I try not to play it like every single day, but I feel like a lot of people don't have that, that same experience, you know. And it almost is like the sunk cost fallacy kicks in and they're like, oh my God, I spent all this money on this game, like I have to play it. And then they're not just spending their money, they're like spending their time, which is an incredibly valuable resource as well.
- [19:08]
Reese Oliver
The time and energy. It feels like keeping up with a new show where it's always like, even if you're not going to buy the updates, you have to like at least know which ones are out so you know whether or not you're buying them. And then you don't think about the money when it's in such small increments. But then having you explain it all as like, well over $1,000, owning everything together is like kind of crazy to me. When that's like money you could spend on your real life.
- [19:28]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, 1,000%. And I think a lot of it is hype. Almost like, you know how the hype around the boo boos kind of came out and everybody was like, oh, I want to buy this, I want to buy this. But then when you actually have it, you don't really do anything with it. And that's been my experience where I'll like buy an expansion pack, I'll play it for two weeks and then I'll like, forget about it. And I'm like, this feels like a childlike behavior, you know, I feel like I'm past this.
- [19:49]
Reese Oliver
So do you revert back to playing like the OG Sims when that happens? Is there just something about the unskinned version of it that you like or is that just when you get bored of the game entirely and you set it aside for a bit?
- [19:58]
Amanda Kaur
It's when I get bored of the game entirely. I completely set it aside. I mean, like now I have the Castle expansion pack, I have the Mermaid expansion pack, I have the Fairy expansion pack. I have every single thing that a girly playing dollhouse could want. And yet I still get bored of it and need to put it down.
- [20:14]
Reese Oliver
And I think maybe that's because it can be so big. If there's no limit to it, then like, what's the point?
- [20:19]
Amanda Kaur
It can be overwhelming and some people embrace that and some people are like, no.
- [20:27]
Amanda Montell
This episode is proudly sponsored by article. I am such a longtime fan of this brand. I am squarely in my grown up lady home decor era. Recently I undertook the project of making over my back deck and I got me the chicest, most glorious outdoor L shaped couch and a beautiful wooden coffee table. And then I went out and I dressed up the space with like an umbrella and some plants and some chairs and now it looks like a luxury five star resort. I have been a F of article for so long. Their pieces are incredibly high quality. They appeal to so many styles, whether you're into the mid century modern thing or the coastal thing or the Scandi inspired thing. I also felt so glamorous When I had my article pieces delivered because the packaging is so meticulous, everything came assembled which was amazing. The craftsmanship is incredible. I think I'm going to have these pieces for the rest of my livelong life. Truly. If you have any furniture and decor needs, I highly recommend Article especially because Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more. To claim, visit article.com cult and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com cult for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. When people hear that Mint Mobile plans are just 15 bucks a month, they often ask what's the catch? But I can tell you from personal experience there isn't one. There are no gimmicks, no gotchas, just unlimited talk, text and data, fast, reliable coverage on the nation's largest 5G network and an award winning care team. When was the last time you heard about a mobile provider that cares about you? Probably never. Since switching to Mint, I have definitely noticed that the coverage is better and at such an affordable price. Hello, no brainer. Ditch Overpriced Wireless With Mint Mobile, it's so easy. You just just sign up online and get three months of premium wireless service for just 15 bucks a month. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com cult that's mintmobile.com cult cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com cult that's it. There's no catch. $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to 15 bucks a month. New customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details.
- [22:51]
Reese Oliver
So since the Sims is beginning, it has obviously exploded into a global phenomenon like no other. And I'm wondering if there is a singular cult leader figure at this, at the head of this group.
- [23:04]
Amanda Kaur
Okay, so I kind of feel like EA Games is the cult leader, but in the same way that the clergy are the true leaders of Catholicism. Like not Jesus, you know what I mean? Not Jesus or God, it's the clergy. You don't ever really see EA in the same way that you see the clergy, but the Sims are the poster child for the game in the same way that the saints are for Catholicism. But like EA is like the puppet masters behind it, you know, and they're the ones making all the money.
- [23:30]
Reese Oliver
Lots of good metaphors today on Sounds Like a Cult. We're really getting into it. That is Such a good point though about the Sims themselves kind of being figureheads for the developers of the games. Like you were talking about the goth family earlier. But then, yeah, there's like all kinds of these like cutesy little figures with iconic names that you've kind of grown up with if you've played this Sims for a long time. And I feel like because you can form such a parasocial relationship almost with these non people, the creators of the game are kind of absolved of attention or any perception that could be negative. Because I think when there's a clear author of a game or a clear someone at the head, it's really easy to be like, oh, in this new version of the game, I don't like XY decision creator who did that, that's bad. But when it's kind of just this ambiguous force and the only figurehead you have for the game are like literally in the game themselves, close, it's kind of just the complaints wither into the wind.
- [24:19]
Amanda Kaur
And that prevents, I think, the Sims and EA games from taking any true accountability because it is so big and the leader is so ambiguous.
- [24:30]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, they can kind of just keep trusting that they have enough people that are already in their own little world and that aren't really going to question much beyond the new expansion packs and are just going to keep buying.
- [24:39]
Amanda Kaur
It's like, okay, we could fix this problem, but we don't really need to because we're still going to make money and. And that really clearly lays out their priorities.
- [24:46]
Reese Oliver
That sounds like our government. So speaking of the regular buying of the expansion packs, what other ritualistic behaviors are performed by this group?
- [24:56]
Amanda Kaur
So as we mentioned at the beginning of the episode just a little bit, Sims do have their own language called Simlish. It's mostly the Sims who talk like this, but every now and then the community does too. There's also this thing called events that EA hosts when a new pack comes out and it's basically motivation for you to buy and play the new pack within the first 30 days. And it's a way that you can get like add ons and free stuff. It's like, oh, the Halloween event is going on for the next month, so you better buy the game in the next month. And then it gives you like a little mission to track and people online will talk about the mission and swap experiences with the mission. And it's kind of like this group thing that brings everybody together while also getting them to spend more money faster.
- [25:41]
Reese Oliver
I used to play Animal Jam. I don't know if any of the listeners have heard of Animal Jam, it was like National Geographic's version of Club Penguin, but you could play as like any animal you wanted and it was really cool. And they would do similar events for holidays. And now looking back on it, I really feel like it was just a way to keep you playing year round. Even though the game didn't change that much. Nothing's really happening and there's only so much you can do. Once you've done everything and you've sat at your screen for like 10 hours and you've built so many Sims and you made them all, woohoo, what else are you going to do? But like you were saying, like something to get you to play right now, something with a sense of urgency to it. I think that that really keeps people hooked.
- [26:18]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah. And it creates this energy of fomo. If you go onto the Sims, Reddit board or whatever, then you'll see all these people are just talking about the event and the new pack and you're like, oh, maybe I should go, I should go.
- [26:32]
Reese Oliver
Everybody's wearing this cool new thing. You can only get at the new event and I'm going to look like a loser if I don't have it.
- [26:37]
Amanda Kaur
No, honestly, I have my labo boo in the corner. Have like staring at you and I'm just like looking at her and I'm like, you're kind of like the Sims I bought you because of the hype.
- [26:47]
Reese Oliver
And it is funny to me how much that FOMO aspect of the Sims exists, given that it is a rather solitary game. Like most of the time you're not really interacting with other people when you actually play. You have to take it outside of the realm of the game or I guess to events to interact with people, which might also be some of the appeal.
- [27:02]
Amanda Kaur
1,000%. That combination of having like this incredibly isolating experience or then going online and communicating with with the community and then having FOMO is a dangerous cocktail. It can be a fun cocktail. It can be fun to talk to other people about it, but it can also be a little dangerous.
- [27:18]
Reese Oliver
It can get you into the depths of the cultishness way faster than you may have anticipated, or it might get you into some murky waters. So I'm just dying to know, like, is there any real tea or controversy behind the Sims? Like what's going on behind the games?
- [27:31]
Amanda Kaur
Okay, honestly, yeah. The game is not just about designing your dream kitchen or drowning your Sims in swimming pools. There has been controversy surrounding surrounding the Sims packs from the pressure to buy More packs in order to have a complete collection to community, inviting to EA's most recent announcement that they were going to be acquired for 55 billion by a consortium including Jared Kushner's Affinity Partners. Yuck.
- [27:58]
Amanda Montell
Ew.
- [27:59]
Amanda Kaur
Yes you indeed. This recent announcement is causing a huge amount of blowback in the Sims community, as number one, people fear Jared Kushner and the company's involvement will make the Sims lead less inclusive and LGBTQ friendly, which is literally part of its foundation and like its biggest redeeming quality. Okay. And two, according to the BBC, Sims was sold in the form of a leveraged buyout, AKA a buyout where buyers borrow a large percentage price and make the company pay it back. And historically, this type of setup means a lot of layoffs and a lot of cutting corners, which the Sims has already been accused of of doing. And while the deal, according to the ap, still needs approval from regulators and stockholders, the transaction is expected to close in the first quarter of the fiscal year of 2027. Since then, multiple notable streamers in the EA Creator Network, which provides exclusive access and other networking perks to Sims related Content Creators have announced that they will be leaving the network as the buyout is against their personal beliefs. Not long after this announcement, several creators announced their departure, and the Sims posted a statement on their Instagram account that included the words, we deeply respect that everyone experiences the Sims in their own way and will make choices that are right for them. Our mission, values and commitment remains the same. The Sims will always be a space where you can express your authentic self. So some controversy there.
- [29:25]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. This is crazy. This is like the true cult leaders, almost like betraying their cult in a way. I'm reminded of this is like a way throwback, but I'm reminded of our, our H3 episode, our Kundalini Yoga episode, where the leaders of that cult were like telling all their followers essentially to behave in one way and then they were acting in a completely different way. And I feel like I'm seeing a lot of parallels with this where it's just like, well, we stumbled into this space of LGBTQ advocacy low key. I mean, whether or not we think that the women made out on purpose or not, but we found our way into this position of LGBTQ advocacy and. And now we're just gonna like very quietly rescind that and, but not at all have that affect the game or like tell any of our. I'm assuming they're not being very transparent about this.
- [30:13]
Amanda Kaur
No. And it kind of just makes their values really Clear. And people have been suspecting for a while that EA Games and the Sims has become a lot more money driven. And I mean like, yeah, it's a business, but at the same time, like businesses have values and mission statements for a reason. That is literally saying that we're not just about making money. And, and I think that they're starting to neglect that a little bit.
- [30:37]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. And I think it's cultish for the worse in that they're such like a long standing community and they really don't need to be growing anymore or expanding anymore or like doing anything more than they're already doing. Like we're saying they're not even making Sims 5. So it's interesting to me that their priorities as a company can be so backwards considering who has gotten them to where they are.
- [30:58]
Amanda Kaur
Exactly. It's like that thing that we see all over in different industries right now, where it's like, we could grow, grow, but should we? You know, we could innovate, but should we?
- [31:06]
Reese Oliver
Would that make us more money?
- [31:07]
Amanda Kaur
And it's not even the only controversy that's like plagued the Sims. They've also faced considerable backlash over the past few years from their online community, who accused the Sims and EA games for being buggy and lazy and money grabbing. Users were especially pissed off after EA published an article titled Dag Dag to Lag, which listed off reasons why the game could be running slowly for users. Some of these made sense, like users downloading too many mods or modifications or using too much custom content. But they also said things like having ponds, clutter, kitchen counters or too many wallpapers could cause issues. And it's like, okay, what? Why are you giving us all these options? Why are you telling us to spend all this money on all these options if we can't even use them? And that to me felt like EA was blaming the user for making intricate houses when that's the whole purpose of the game. And it's so annoying when the Sims keep pumping out and promoting expansion packs that are designed to make the game feel more intricate and detailed.
- [32:05]
Reese Oliver
That makes me angry. And they're like, I don't know guys. I think it's just your fault for using the product as we intended. Like, no, I think your product just doesn't work. That's another MLM parallel here.
- [32:19]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, it's like a total lack of accountability. And while the Sims has been praised for being inclusive of queer folks and gender identities, its racial diversity is definitely lacking. I mean, when new packs are released, they often resemble an existing country. Cool concept. For example, the Fairy Pack feels like Ireland. The Going Out Clubs pack feels like Germany. The Big City pack is modeled after Tokyo. The Mermaid Pack feels like Hawaii or the South Pacific. But there haven't been any packs, even though there are so many that draw from Europe and America. There haven't been that many packs that draw inspiration from any African countries until the latest pack, Royalty and Legacy, which was announced right after the Sims were called out for being buggy and gaslighting. So while some people were like really psyched about that pack back and excited that it was going to be a more inclusive Sims game, others were accusing it of being purely a PR move and that there are only scraps of West African culture dropped in. Also, I mentioned custom content earlier, or CC or mods and modifications. These are like methods for creators to have a more detailed control over the design of their Sims and their houses. And while some are like really innocent, like adding steampunk designs or having more intricate etiquette picnic interactions, others include things like self harm and a DEI remover which removes LGBTQ plus and non white players from the game.
- [33:37]
Reese Oliver
Oh, I don't think we needed those ones, guys.
- [33:41]
Amanda Kaur
No, they've done like a decent job at shutting down those modifications, but the fact that they are still like cropping up I think is demonstrative of a larger problem.
- [33:50]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, for sure. And I do think that that is a risk that you run when the crux of your game is that you can play God. Like I think you put it really well. Like I think that is dangerous concept to offer some people sometimes.
- [34:02]
Amanda Kaur
There are a lot of people who should not play God.
- [34:04]
Reese Oliver
There are plenty of people, plenty of people who should not play God. Okay, getting a little bit more into some culty analysis. An us versus them dichotomy is something that like thrives in most cults. But like we've been talking about, Sims seems to be pretty like a solo experience. So if there is an us and if there is a them, who are they?
- [34:22]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, I mean, I guess I really do feel an immediate connection to people who play the Sims. It is sort of something to talk about or an inside joke. And when I meet people who play the Sims, I'm like, oh my God, you know, like it's, it's a fun like little bonding experience and it can create this like, oh, we play the Sims, like we know it, you know. But I would say like that is equivalent to having an inside joke.
- [34:43]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, I think there's something about the amount of time that The Sims requires to really build a really detailed world that when you meet someone else who is also like, willing to dedicate that amount of time and energy to this thing that you love, there's something really magical there. So I think that that can definitely create an upgrade us as opposed to a them that maybe doesn't understand, but I don't know that it necessarily feels harmful or culty. And with that, are there any social costs of not conforming to this group?
- [35:07]
Amanda Kaur
Missing out on joy? Okay. You know? Yeah, I mean, it's just like not being in on the joke. And I wouldn't say it's like so pervasive that you feel inadequate for not having the Sims or you feel like worthless for not participating in the Sims. But I have been in spaces where like, it's like three of us and two of us play the Sims and that third person might be be like, okay, you guys are literally talking in a language and getting so excited about this like, thing that I can't participate in. You know, I don't know.
- [35:35]
Reese Oliver
The tongues are. I don't want the expansion packs and I feel scared and left out.
- [35:39]
Amanda Kaur
Exactly.
- [35:40]
Reese Oliver
I do also think there's something important about Sims. Like Sims is one of the only video games that I really see, like, adult women getting very into. And I think that that provides an avenue for play that women aren't afforded very often. And I think that there's, there's maybe, I don't want to say a social cost of not conforming to the group aspect of it, but I think that there's definitely something to be said for a Joy there.
- [36:02]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, I like look at some of the more masculine or stereotypically male focused video games and they're just like guns and violence. And then I go to mine, I go to Sims and it's like I'm tending my garden. You know what I mean?
- [36:17]
Reese Oliver
My mermaids are having a blast. Everything great.
- [36:20]
Amanda Kaur
My mermaids are having a graduation party. Okay.
- [36:23]
Reese Oliver
Love that. So on the inverse, the flip side, what are the most devastating effects of this cult?
- [36:29]
Amanda Kaur
Spending money and spending time. It's expensive and it's isolating and I don't really feel good after I play the Sims. Like, I feel like, great when I'm actually playing it, but I don't think it net positive contributes to my life if I let it get out of control. I mean, yeah, like there are times like when I had Covid and I had to miss a friend's wedding. Like, I bought myself a new Sims pack because it was fun to have, like, a healthy, healthy distraction for the weekend, you know, or if you're having, like, really bad period cramps or something like that, and you really want to, like, get your focus off your body. I think in that way it is kind of nice. But when you're playing it all the time, then you are missing out on your real life, and that is a huge negative impact. Like, there's nothing better than being present in your actual life, and there's nothing healthier than that. So to not engage with that in favor of a fantasy world world where you have unlimited resources and unlimited funds and you can create a person that you wish you looked like, like, that is when it starts to get dangerous.
- [37:30]
Reese Oliver
I agree wholeheartedly. And last but not least, just what advice would you give to someone who maybe is finding themselves playing the Sims a few more hours a day than they would like speaking in simlish when they shouldn't be?
- [37:45]
Amanda Kaur
The advice I have to give to myself sometimes. Sometimes happy to share with others. I mean, remember that this game is so enticing because it allows you to design or play in a fantasy world or, like, find community. And there are so many other ways to do that that are irl and, you know, like, rearrange your furniture or get into some crafts, read a book, go out and volunteer, Save your money that you would be spending on the Sims back and buy something nice for your house instead. Like your actual real life house. There are so many ways to achieve the feeling that you're getting from the Sims, which is sort of like this possibility and creativity in real life. And I would encourage people to find those things so they can fill whatever void they're trying to fill. And I say that respectfully because we all have voids, you know?
- [38:31]
Reese Oliver
We do. That's beautiful. I have, in recent weeks, found it very comforting whenever I'm experiencing decision paralysis, when I don't quite know what to do with myself. Or maybe I'm, like, getting a little bit too angry at myself. I'm, like, putting a little bit too much pressure on myself. Myself. I just kind of remember, like, I'm my own sim, which is just a fancy way of saying, like, I have free will. But, you know, a girl needs to be reminded sometimes. I don't always remember. Sometimes I feel like there's invisible rules and I don't know who's making them up, but they're there. But it's me. I'm my own sim.
- [38:59]
Amanda Kaur
That is so real. I'm imagining you saying this to yourself in your mirror before you like, go out for the day. It's really true though.
- [39:07]
Reese Oliver
My plumb Bob.
- [39:08]
Amanda Kaur
Oh, my God. Speaking of cults, I think a lot about how in college, when I was on the improv team in college and when we would join, we would like get blindfolded and like thrown into a car and like driven somewhere, you know, as like the initiation. And my friend just got a boyfriend and I'm like, I could do that.
- [39:24]
Reese Oliver
You could. You have free will.
- [39:27]
Amanda Kaur
Exactly, exactly. Exactly. I'm like, I agree, Will. Like, I could do this. Also, like, hilar that. That's the message that I'm like leaving your listeners with on this cult podcast. I'm like, you can kidnap your friends. Guys.
- [39:38]
Reese Oliver
No, you can. No, I do actually have like a very, very random question before we get into our game. Do you think that people who like improv are more prone to liking the Sims?
- [39:49]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah. Especially women. Like, if you are a girly who likes improv, then I would bet your sweet bibby that you are also a girly who might like the Sims. It's creative fun. You know, it's fun.
- [40:02]
Reese Oliver
It's silly, it's goofy. You get to create a world all your own and live in it and. And no one can tell you what's wrong.
- [40:07]
Amanda Kaur
For better and for worse, I literally made a sorority house and built secret passageways all throughout.
- [40:14]
Reese Oliver
Okay, whoa. Cult ception. Sorority house in the Sims. That's what you were talking about earlier when you said that there's occult packs. It's just like the Bama Rush pack. I want that. Wait.
- [40:27]
Amanda Kaur
Oh my God. Bama Rush Sims collab.
- [40:30]
Reese Oliver
Bama Rush Sims expansion pack would be insane.
- [40:37]
Amanda Kaur
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- [41:34]
Reese Oliver
Okay, I think it's time to play a game.
- [41:36]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, I think so too. And you're gonna be the victim of my Sims game.
- [41:40]
Reese Oliver
I'm never the victim of a Sims game. Or of any game, really on this show, but especially a Sims game.
- [41:45]
Ad Reader 2
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- [41:46]
Amanda Kaur
Well, today's your lucky day. We're gonna be playing your classic Quilty or Cringe Sims edition. Are you ready?
- [41:52]
Reese Oliver
Am I ever.
- [41:53]
Amanda Kaur
Let's go, Reese. Alright, first, spending an hour designing your Sims house instead of tending to your actual dirty kitchen.
- [42:01]
Reese Oliver
I think that's just cringe. Everyone's done it. Maybe I'm just saying that because my kitchen's dirty right now. Oops.
- [42:05]
Amanda Kaur
It happens. Making yourself and your crush and create a sim, then having them move in together.
- [42:13]
Reese Oliver
I'm gonna say something really culty. I'm gonna say culty if it's someone you know in real life. Just cringe if it's a celebrity.
- [42:20]
Amanda Kaur
That's so true. I have made Lana Del Rey in my Sims worlds.
- [42:25]
Reese Oliver
I feel like everyone's tried to make a celebrity, right?
- [42:27]
Amanda Kaur
Like, yeah, back before we knew how much of a monster J.K. rowling was. I made Harry Potter and Phoebe Bridgers, and they were roommates.
- [42:34]
Reese Oliver
Oh, wait, okay. No, I can't download this game. Okay,
- [42:41]
Amanda Kaur
No, I cannot convince you. That would be the opposite of this podcast. Okay, moving on before Reese buys the Sims. Calling your Sims your children.
- [42:48]
Reese Oliver
If you're doing this unironically, that's called culty.
- [42:50]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, spending more times with your Sims than actual human beings.
- [42:54]
Reese Oliver
That is culty.
- [42:55]
Amanda Kaur
The world is hard enough recreating your ex just to kill them with a pool ladder?
- [43:00]
Reese Oliver
That's cathartic. Neither.
- [43:02]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, I really like that answer. We all heal in different ways.
- [43:06]
Reese Oliver
I support women's rights and women's wrongs.
- [43:08]
Amanda Kaur
Sorry, Women's rights and women's wrongs, baby. Okay, reordering the new expansion pack even though your bank account is close to zero. Grow.
- [43:17]
Reese Oliver
Oh, that just made me anxious. Culty.
- [43:21]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, I feel like that is the most common culty behavior among Sims players too. Being so dedicated to building your dream mansion that you ignore real world issues and. Or corruption.
- [43:32]
Reese Oliver
Culty. But I feel like also maybe the. The goal of the game. Conspiracy.
- [43:35]
Amanda Kaur
Yeah, there's like a balance there, you know, like distracting yourself for a night so you don't have the scalies. So you don't spiral.
- [43:42]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, it's a little treat. Not your whole whole life.
- [43:46]
Amanda Kaur
Exactly. You know, you can't like, live in a realm of distraction. We are too adult to do that.
- [43:51]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. Join an improv group. Balance your Sims. Play with other forms of play. I think is the takeaway of the day.
- [43:57]
Amanda Kaur
Go outside, touch some grass.
- [43:59]
Reese Oliver
Well, Amanda, I think it is that time out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, or get the out. How would you categorize the cult of the Sims?
- [44:13]
Amanda Kaur
Oh, man. You know, I am gonna say that pre Jared Kushner getting involved, it was a total Live youe Life. Now I would say it's like closer to like 75%. Live your life with like 25. Watch your back because you want to know if the organizations and companies that you are participating in are doing bad things. You know you want to know that. But mostly, let the girlies build their houses. Like the world gives us so little. Build your fucking pink house. And your cottage core tour to rent and adoptive money.
- [44:44]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, like, I know you're not supposed to say no. Ethical consumption under capitalism as an excuse to just participate in whatever you want. And I don't think you should, but I do think it's hard to find joy nowadays. I think we all deserve a little bit sometimes. And yeah, I think just play mindfully. Maybe you don't need every expansion pack. Maybe just pick one.
- [45:04]
Amanda Kaur
Exactly, exactly. That's a really good way to put it. You know, find balance. Balance. Stay updated on what's going on. If things start to go south for the Sims, it could easily become a get the out. But right now I think it's still in live your life slight watch your back territory.
- [45:19]
Reese Oliver
Beautiful. Okay, well, now that that is established, thank you so much for joining us. If our listeners want to find you and your cult and follow it, where can they do such a thing?
- [45:30]
Amanda Kaur
Literally. My pleasure. It was so fun to be here. You can follow me personally, amandamcore, on Instagram. And if you want to get into looking at the world through a bisexual lens, you can follow us. This feels bi on Instagram.
- [45:46]
Reese Oliver
I know I do. Well, Culties, that is our show.
- [45:49]
Amanda Kaur
Thanks so much for listening.
- [45:51]
Reese Oliver
Join us for a new cult next
- [45:53]
Amanda Kaur
week and in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty.
- [46:06]
Amanda Montell
Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult Cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslike a
- [46:55]
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- [47:46]
Amanda Montell
Super.
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