The Cult of Women for Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Cult of Women for Trump" – Sounds Like A Cult

Hosts: Amanda Montell & Chelsea Charles
Guest: E. Jean Carroll
Date: July 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the rise, influence, and contradictions of the "Women for Trump" movement—a subculture within American conservatism that packages ultra-feminine, trad wife values as both a form of empowerment and submission, particularly in support of Donald Trump. Through witty critique and sociopolitical analysis, hosts Amanda Montell and Chelsea Charles break down why so many women rally behind a leader and ideology widely viewed as dismissive (and often hostile) toward their own rights. Special guest E. Jean Carroll—a journalist who famously won lawsuits against Trump—offers her insights into the phenomenon, drawing on her own battles against entrenched power.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Introduction & Context

• The episode revisits previously aired material with new context after the further rise of MAGA (Make America Great Again) women, particularly figures like Erica Kirk taking leadership roles within the movement (e.g., Turning Point USA) while perpetuating patriarchal ideals ([00:00]–[07:24]).
  • Amanda: “[...] this woman telling millions of followers that women should embrace a more subservient role has become a powerful public figure herself. Now don't get me started on how conservative, misogynistic [...] right wingers have come up with all sorts of wild shit to say about her, critiquing her for all the wrong reasons. But from the Sounds Like a Cult perspective, [...] Erica's rise really does mirror what we often see in more classically cultish movements. A person starts as a follower, maybe a high ranking follower in the inner circle, becomes a spokesperson, and then opportunistically transforms into a symbol.” ([03:36])

2. Cultish Indicators of the Movement

• The show’s cult analysis framework is applied, weighing whether this movement is a “Live Your Life,” “Watch Your Back,” or “Get The Fuck Out” cult. The hosts highlight:

  • Charismatic male leader (Trump)

  • Gendered power structures with women as public faces but rarely in charge

  • Us vs. them mentality

  • High exit costs (alienation from community/family)

  • Rituals, language, and aesthetic signals (think “blowouts, Bibles, babies”)

  • Use of femininity as both shield and weapon ([07:51], [15:57], [17:54])

  • Notable quote: “MAGA women have clearly been able to centralize and mobilize themselves in a way that feels almost like fundamentalist religion [...] these believers have thrown themselves wholeheartedly into not just a belief system, but a culture that works against their own rights and long term interests…” – Amanda ([10:49])

3. Trad Wife Aesthetics & Right-Wing Influence

• Influence of soft, hyper-feminine aesthetics to propagate harder right ideologies under the radar—Instagram, TikTok, and lifestyle media (like Evie Magazine) are highlighted as vectors ([14:10]–[15:16]).
  • Chelsea: “According to a 2023 study, Trad wife influencers use soft aesthetics to smuggle far right ideology into mainstream spaces without appearing overtly political.” ([14:10])
  • Discussion of historical precedents (Phyllis Schlafly) and the modern, viral packaging of the same ideas.

4. E. Jean Carroll Interview – Insights & Critiques

On the Traditional Gender Role Appeal

• E. Jean Carroll describes the movement as rooted in “love of a strong man” and centuries-old gender hierarchy ([21:34]).
  • E. Jean: “We're looking at something that women that are just simply traditional, where a man is a leader, we love a strong man. Whatever the man says, that's the truth. The man leads the family, women come second. [...] but the traditional wives love it. They're standing for everything we fought against. So we understand why they're that way. We understand it. And it's sickening.”

On Power by Proximity

• Chelsea frames “maga wives” as women seeking power “in proximity to power”—a self-serving form of feminism that cares little for liberation of others ([23:09]–[24:19]).
  • Chelsea: “They find power in proximity to power. And they don't give a fuck about anybody else. They just care about how they can benefit from being in proximity to these strong men.”
  • E. Jean: “That's fascinating. Proximity. What a weak way of thinking. [...] basically, almost everybody in the Republican Party is a traditional wife, including the men.” ([24:19])

On Performance & Aesthetics

• The “drag-like” quality of MAGA womanhood; the uniform of thin, white, hyper-feminized women as a form of in-group signaling ([32:55]).
  • Amanda: “I think one of the ways that women for Trump MAGA wives fool themselves is through the performance of femininity that they take on as a privilege, as a joy. [...] this high performance, almost drag like aesthetic of corsets and mocktails and girly pop nationalism.” ([32:55])

On Changing Minds

• The hosts and E. Jean discuss the difficulty of changing true believers’ minds, the importance of meeting people where they are, and the challenge women face when speaking out against powerful men ([27:17]–[29:48], [38:30]).
  • E. Jean: “If you speak out against a powerful man and you're a woman, who are they going to believe? They're going to believe the powerful man. However, I beat Trump twice. The only person on the earth, and I'm fucking 81 years old. So if I can do it.” ([38:30])

On the Psychology of Fear and Conservatism

• Group conformity’s appeal during times of sociopolitical uncertainty; nostalgia for an idyllic past as a defense mechanism ([49:41]–[50:00]):
  • E. Jean: “We become conservative when we're frightened, and you become progressive when you're free and you're loving life.” ([49:59])

On Whether Women Hold Real Power

• Examining whether MAGA wives are puppets or puppet-masters, and the gender performance beneath surface-level subservience ([51:14]–[54:57]).
  • Chelsea: “I think Usha [Vance] is honestly, like, emblematic of what these MAGA wives represent, because I don't think they're just sitting there twirling their hairs and just acquiescing to their husband's humor. I think that they're the ones who are captaining the ship.” ([53:45])
  • E. Jean: “For all we know, Melania is running this country.” ([54:57])

5. Memorable Moments & Humor

• The team plays “Magawife Mad Libs” with E. Jean Carroll, crafting a parody Instagram caption lampooning the movement’s style ([55:55]):
  • Chelsea (reading the Mad Lib, 57:20): “Every day I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband. Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it. For Trump, our light leader, only the strong survive. Rambunctious family values. Beautiful tits for Trump.”

6. Calls to Action and Hope

• E. Jean Carroll proposes a viral, lighthearted social media campaign to mock Trump and break the spell for some followers—using the power of humor and community ([36:00], [41:30]).
  • E. Jean: “We're going to start attacking Trump with lightness and humor. [...] If he moves to try to stop us, he looks ridiculous. And if he does nothing, he looks weak.” ([36:00])

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Verdict & Closing Insights

Final “Cult” Verdict:
Get the Fuck Out. The hosts emphatically agree that the “Women for Trump”/MAGA wife movement exhibits high-demand cult tactics, harms its members’ interests, and upholds regressive systems of power.

• Chelsea: “It is a resounding get the fuck out. [...] what annoys me about Magawives is that they agree with the idea that patriarchal societies are the only way society could ever even exist.” ([60:30])

Amanda’s Reflection: The draw is partly tradition, partly a manufactured sense of stability in chaos, but ultimately, it comes down to a “profound lack of creativity” to imagine real alternatives and the comfort of systems that reassure rather than challenge.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "[...] this woman telling millions of followers that women should embrace a more subservient role has become a powerful public figure herself." – Amanda ([03:36])
• “Almost everybody in the Republican Party is a traditional wife, including the men.” – E. Jean Carroll ([24:19])
• “He set the tone. Like at first I was thinking, oh, they created this culture. But he set the tone first.” – Amanda ([35:25])
• “We become conservative when we're frightened, and you become progressive when you're free and you're loving life.” – E. Jean Carroll ([49:59])
• “It's up to you. We're trying.” – E. Jean Carroll, on activism ([35:40])
• “Every day I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband... Rambunctious family values. Beautiful tits for Trump.” – Mad Lib read by Chelsea ([57:20])
• “We invite you because it gets practice in my house every day.” – Chelsea ([62:15])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Background, Current Context: [00:00]–[07:24]
• Cult Analysis Framework: [07:30]–[17:54]
• Trad Wives, Social Media & Ideology: [13:10]–[15:57]
• Guest Introduction – E. Jean Carroll: [17:54]–[21:34]
• Main Interview Topics: [21:34]–[54:57]
• Humor/Mad Libs Game: [55:55]–[58:30]
• Final Verdicts & Reflections: [59:19]–[62:18]

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Takeaways for New Listeners

• The episode is a sharp, humor-laced but substantive exploration of how gendered power operates within right-wing movements, viewed through both a “cult lens” and a feminist lens.
• Special emphasis is placed on the performance of femininity, the contradiction between claimed empowerment and actual disposability in the movement, and the ways cult dynamics protect power at the expense of women—while using them as the movement's sales force.
• E. Jean Carroll’s first-hand experience and wit bring gravitas and urgency, but the show’s cheeky camaraderie keeps things accessible and entertaining.

Recommended For: Anyone interested in gender, cult dynamics, right-wing media, or contemporary political culture—especially those curious about why “Women for Trump” is more than just a voting bloc, but a cultural phenomenon shaped by contradictions and clever marketing.

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Closing Note:
"Sounds Like A Cult" encourages critical examination, cheeky skepticism, and communal creative resistance. The call is to get out—and to do so, perhaps, with a little lightness, a little wit, and a refusal to take patriarchal cults too seriously.

Transcript

[Amanda Montell]

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I was so desperate for outdoor patio furniture and I found the perfect piece pieces on article. If you have any furniture needs, you just have to check out article. They make everything. The quality of these items is, bar none. The products come fully assembled or mostly assembled. The shipping is fast and affordable. And guess what? Article is offering our listeners 50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com cult and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com cult for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. So Culties, when we originally released this episode as the Cult of Maga Wives, we were talking about a rising archetype that the show knows all too well. The tradwave influencers, the women for Trump activists, the ultra feminine conservative personalities selling a vision of American womanhood that champions subservience and patriotism. A year later, it is haunting just how much this dystopian cinematic universe has evolved, because the women of the Maga movement have only become more and more visible and influential. I'm talking conservative female personalities like Caroline Levitt, Megyn Kelly, Erica Kirk, Candace Owens, Katie Miller. Not to mention the growing ecosystem of influencers that have built massive audiences by packaging conservative politics in a way that's highly shareable and has a genuine foothold in mainstream culture. What once may have seemed fringe. Extreme culty is now a centerpiece in our culture. And one person who really embodies this evolution is Erica Kirk. So when we first recorded this episode, she was primarily known as a conservative Christian personality whose public message encouraged women to find purpose in family life and challenged modern feminist ideas about career independence. Honestly, I don't think I'd ever even heard her name. But then, after her husband, Charlie Kirk was killed, she was thrust from right wing influencer to heir apparent, taking over as CEO and chair of Turning Point USA and carrying forward one of the most consequential organizations in the MAGA movement. And it is a truly fascinating and harrowing sight to behold because this woman telling millions of followers that women should embrace a more subservient role has become a powerful public figure herself. Now don't get me started on how conservative, misogynistic and conspiratorial right wingers have come up with all sorts of wild shit to say about her, critiquing her for all the wrong reasons. But from the sounds like a cult perspective, what I can say is that Erica's rise really does mirror what we often see in more classically cultish movements. A person starts as a follower, maybe a high ranking follower in the inner circle, becomes a spokesperson, and then opportunistically transforms into a symbol. Today, Erica Kirk has become one of the Trump cult's most recognizable faces, even beyond the conservative bubble in which she most comfortably slithers. And that kind of brings us to the super interesting contradiction at the heart of this entire phenomenon. As women for Trump have gained more cultural influence, many of the women who helped sell the movement have found themselves increasingly sidelined when it comes to actual power. Over the last year, we've watched several high profile women rise to prominence within Trump's orbit, only to find themselves on the outside looking in. Former Attorney General Pam Bondi was reassigned. Tulsi Gabbard is gone. Kristi Noem is gone. Thank fuck Lori Chavez Durimer is gone. Pretty much every cabinet level departure so far has been a woman, and everyone has been replaced by a man. Now, to be clear, each departure came with its own circumstances and controversies. But from a cult perspective, honey, look at the pattern. Women are often this movement and many cult movements most effective recruiters, messengers, public faces. But who really has the power? At the end of the day, it's male cult leader. The irony, honey. Countless listeners have requested us to do generally the cult of Trump over the years, but women for Trump are just simply a more interesting and more fitting subject. For this particular podcast to discuss. A Because it's a little less obvious. B Because this is a female run podcast, so crucify us for being more interested in women, but also because it provides us an opportunity to ask the culty question, are women becoming such a big part of this movement because they're really valued or because they're props, objects, useful and then disposable? With that in mind, we're revisiting our conversation with the legendary E. Jean Carroll, whose story has actually only become more remarkable since we first spoke. Here's the latest. So, after winning nearly $90 million in judgments against Donald Trump for sexual abuse and defamation last week, the Supreme Court declined to hear Trump's appeal, leaving one of Eugene's landmark victories intact. E. Jean's story is, among many things, a reminder that challenging powerful cult leadery men is not easy. It takes a lot of fortitude and conviction, and it can be a years long battle against the systems built to protect them. So please enjoy this episode on the cult of women for Trump. We'll be back with a brand new episode next week about a movement that spent decades trying to change people who didn't need fixing in the first place. But in the meantime, thank you for listening. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Evanna Montel, author of some books including the Language of Fanaticism.

[Chelsea Charles]

And I'm your co host Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a student of pop culture sociology.

[Amanda Montell]

Every week on the show we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the culture in culture. From American Girl dolls to anti vaxxers. To try and answer the big question,

[Chelsea Charles]

this group sounds like a cult. But is it really?

[Amanda Montell]

And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A liver life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out? After all, cultish influence these days falls along a continuum. And look, this word cult can mean a lot of things. It's subjective and context dependent, sometimes a little sensational, other times useful, other times cheeky and fun. But here's the thing. Often in this polarized, social media fueled era, the word does nothing but trigger people, right? Like it can be used to create division during a time when we certainly don't need more of that to shut down conversations to make people feel judged. And that is not our aim here. It sounds like a cult. This show, as those who've been listening for a while already know, is all about analyzing the ways cultishness shows up in everyday life to examine the ways in which we are all susceptible to cult influence, but also to compare how not all cults these days are created equal and to have a laugh about it along the way. We're cheeky here, and we try to only get exposed explicitly political on sounds like a cult, like once or twice a year. Obviously we have our own political biases. Mine are probably evident in my books, which are written through a feminist lens of power critique. Chelsea Zenith Sorority with Kamala Harris hello. And we're entitled to that bias. Okay, this isn't a hard news podcast. It sounds like a cult. And that said, we do our best to both seriously appraise and unseriously poke fun at people's culty dogmas or while also respecting their core humanity. So if you can handle all of that, then cozy up with a Stanley cup full of mascara coated right wing tears.

[Chelsea Charles]

Because today we're addressing a political sub movement built on modesty, legal impunity and the fantasy of perfectly blow dried patriarchy. The cult of MAGA wives thrives on high gloss submission curated Christian femininity and weaponized charm. These aren't just political spouses. They're living avatars of a far right fairytale where smiling obedience replaces critical thought. And we are honored today to introduce the legendary E. Jean Carroll, journalist, author and the woman who took Donald Trump to court and won. But before we begin our interview, we wanted to take a moment to set the stage. Because we're not just talking about a political movement. We're talking about a full blown identity, an ideology, and a bit of a culty fantasy. You've probably seen them on Facebook. Definitely Fox News. The women who preach trad wife values, sipping from Stanley's standing behind their husbands at campaign rallies. They're ultra feminine, ultra devoted and ultra loyal to their men, their families, but mostly to Trump.

[Amanda Montell]

Oof. The guns are blazing today. This script is it's giving. Anyways, let's quantify today's group in question a bit, because the women for Trump the MAGA wife movement is more than just a voting demographic. And while I do believe and admit that there's plenty of cultish thinking and rhetoric on the political left, look who's ultimately in power. Okay, MAGA women have clearly been able to centralize and mobilize themselves in a way that feels almost like fundamentalist religion, the way that I see it, and that these believers have thrown themselves wholeheartedly into not just a belief system, but a culture that works against their own rights and long term interests, all under the guidance of a self proclaimed all knowing demigod and working in very effective service against a common blasphemous enemy. So here are some numbers. In 2016, over 52% of white women voted for Trump, and in 2020 that number actually rose to 55%. That's according to Pew Read research. Despite decades of misogynist behavior like as if we need to resummarize the Access Hollywood tapes, the sexual assault and harassment allegations and convictions, Trump's pro life stance, his.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Well, lol.

[Amanda Montell]

His performative pro life stance, who knows? And his fraternization with known pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Look, we're not here to rehash election statistics or talking points, but rather mostly here to ask why?

[Chelsea Charles]

How?

[Amanda Montell]

For whomst? Wherefore indeed, why would so many women, particularly white Christian suburban women, rally behind a man and a movement that has so openly dismissed and demeaned them? We're hoping sincerely and jokingly and sincerely, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. To understand. Sociologists have been asking these same questions too, so we'll link some of these sources in our show notes. But one explanation for why this has all gone down is that this maga wave movement offers a sense of identity and belonging. Like QAnon conspiracy theories, it promises logic and order amid the chaos of today. Research shows that people are often drawn to authoritarian figures in times of perceived instability because it's that illusion of protection of a strong man who can restore things into a fantasy notion of equilibrium.

[Chelsea Charles]

And the aesthetic that we're seeing now, the blowouts, the bibles, the babies, all the babies.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Mommy, mommy take me home.

[Chelsea Charles]

It's not a coincidence. TikTok is literally flooded with trad wife content. I can't escape it. Listen, ballerina forms Nars me nene neither and nars.

[Amanda Montell]

She was on the news. She was literally on like what, Good Morning America? I don't know.

[Chelsea Charles]

She was actually just on Jay Shetty. And she was like, listen, don't call me a trad wife because I don't subscribe. And I was like, oh, clock that. Check out our episode on Trad Wives as a little amuse boost to this episode, many of which are either directly linked to maga influencers or carry the same undertones. Submission as empowerment, modesty as virtue, and domesticity as rebellion against modern blue haired feminism.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh my God, they're such oxymorons. Eugene puts it best later. Stay tuned.

[Chelsea Charles]

According to a 2023 study, Trad wife influencers use soft aesthetics to smuggle far right ideology into mainstream spaces without appearing overtly political.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh my God. Chelsea, have you ever come across the online magazine Evie E V I E magazine?

[Chelsea Charles]

I don't think so.

[Amanda Montell]

I regret that I have. But basically it's exactly a representation of what you just described. It's like Gen Z alt right Cosmo, where they have articles on like dresses to wear for spring and how to make your lashes look extra long amid full blown Dem stole the election type coverage. Conspiracy theories, super anti choice ideology baked into seemingly innocent articles about like, how to get off your birth control. It's so disturbing. It's not like a hugely subscribed to magazine, but it's trying to be. And it is this like so soft, pastel feminine magazine aesthetic that represents this exact culture.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, that's.

[Amanda Montell]

Don't Google it.

[Chelsea Charles]

I was about to say that's disgusting, but now you've piqued my interest because I've never even heard of that. But the way you're describing it, it's like they're not even being coy about it. You know what I'm saying?

[Amanda Montell]

Not really, no.

[Chelsea Charles]

This isn't new either. This kind of gender performance has been part of the far right playbook for decades. From Phyllis Schlafly, a conservative activist and anti feminists in the seventies who fought the Equal Rights Amendment while baking pies, to the RNC lineup of women speakers that praised Trump as being compassionate. But in 2025, it's glossier, more Instagramable and more viral than ever.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, so not to get ahead of ourselves here, but when you run the magawife movement through a GTFO level cult checklist, it's kind of check, check, check. You've got your charismatic leader, the orange Messiah, on his golden toilet throne trove. You've got your us versus them mentality. Sharp division between the in group, the righteous, the chosen, the patriotic and the out group, the corrupt, the evil, the woke, the blue haired trove. You got your exit costs because if you were to leave the maga movement, you would alienate yourself from your family that's still deeply entrenched, including kids that you raised to believe in the deep state truth. And wrapped up in all of that, of course, is the sunk cost fallacy. Because after eight plus years of patronizing Trump merch and going on Facebook rants and ostracizing woke family and friends, cultivating a tradwife aesthetic and adopting this identity as your own, sinking all these resources into this mentality, backing down now would mean having to admit that you're in something cultish.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Truth.

[Amanda Montell]

And look again. Many of these dynamics show up on the political left too. It frankly sometimes does feel like the battle of the cults out there these days. But one key difference is that the left does not have a singular populist authoritarian at the helm like Trump. And that is ultimately what we're here discussing today. So moving on, there's also a demonization of outside information, distrust in the msm, the mainstream media. It reminds me of what Scientologists call black pr. And then of course thought terminating cliches and alienating buzzwords, cultish language up the wazoo, fake news, witch hunt, God, put him there, do your own research. Not to mention, and this is one of the most fascinating parts to me, the rituals, the MAGA themed gender reveals, the prayer chains for Trump's legal battles. This truly is not just a political affiliation, it is a whole culture for the sorry cultureless.

[Chelsea Charles]

To help us unpack this glittering gaslighting archetype and the brutal systems it props up, we are joined today by a true icon. Journalist. Author. Sorry, yes, yes, journalist. Author, most recently of the New York Times bestselling memoir Not My Type. One Woman versus A President. She is the woman who took Donald Trump the Cheeto to court for sexual abuse and defamation and won as a voice behind the iconic L advice column that ran for over 25 years. An Emmy nominated writer for her work on SNL and a widely published writer across genres, her accomplishments are innumerable. May we introduce the unyielding E. Jean Carroll.

[Amanda Montell]

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to build the website of your dreams, to connect with your audience, and to sell anything from products to content to even your valuable time. I am a longtime Squarespace user. Setting up sounds like a cult.com took, I don't know, 30 minutes. But it doesn't look like it if I may say so myself. And that's because of Squarespace's top of the line features including their design intelligence which combines two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to help you unlock your strongest creative potential. I also love that if you are interested in selling things on your Squarespace Space website, you can sell not only physical products but content. Like if you're a photographer or a cult leader who wants to sell an online course. Haha kidding. But not really. You can sell absolutely anything on a Squarespace website and if you're feeling charitable, Squarespace also makes it easy to run a fundraiser on a Squarespace website to manage your donors, to collect their donations, all in one easy place. The point is, if you need a website, you need Squarespace. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website, website or domain Culties. If you are watching on YouTube, then you can see that I look very cool right now. Why? Because I'm wearing my new Zenni Optical prescription sunglasses. What is Zenny? Zenni is an online eyewear shop. Prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light glasses starting at under $30. Let me repeat, that is under 30 bucks. You just go to zenny.com, pick out a frame, try it on virtually. It's very cool. Upload your prescription, and they ship it right to your door. No appointment, no store, no upsell at the counter. I had been putting off updating my prescription sunglasses for so long. Hated those sunglasses. I never wore them. They were stupid. And that is because they're just so expensive. I could not justify it. Then I found out about Zenny, and I got these bad boys that I'm wearing right now that I'm so obsessed with for like 50 bucks. I cannot get enough. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now's the time. Go to zenny.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z e n n I.com podcast promo code podcast15. Eugene, welcome. We would first love to try and properly contextualize who the MAGA wives are and what they seem to represent. So from your perspective, when you examine these women, what do you perceive as their transcendent mission? Is it mostly about politics and marriage the way you see it, or is there something bigger going on in the way that they present themselves and collectively rally to protect men like Trump?

[E. Jean Carroll]

Well, I try not to look at them. I try not to be aware of them, keep them off my landscape. I try to ignore them, I try to not think of them, but I understand them. I think because all we're looking at, this is not a scary thing. It's not scary. We're looking at something that women that are just simply traditional, where a man is a leader, we love a strong man. Whatever the man says, that's the truth. The man leads the family, women come second. So what we're looking at is something that has been around for thousands and thousands of years. Why it's disturbing and so upsetting and sometimes making us want to puke and just put our hands up so we don't see it is because looking at them seems to set us back hundreds of years. We have the feeling that because we're looking at the past, we think we've gotten past that. But as we know, what's going on right now in politics is many of us, particularly living in the south, have no more rights over our own bodies. They're cutting, you know, the education bills. They're cutting our health bills. A woman is having difficulties now going to the doctors, but the traditional wives love it. They're standing for everything we fought against. So we understand why they're that way. We understand it. And it's sickening. It's sickening to see we don't want our daughters to look at us.

[Chelsea Charles]

I could not agree with you more, Eugene. I want to first start off by saying I am like a hater. I love a lot of things, but I am a chronic hater. And to that same point, I hate even giving them fuel because I don't consume a lot of Magawife content. I don't have Maga wife friends. And some would say that that is like a. I don't know. I guess I'm kind of like in my own type of, like, liberal echo chamber, but I like it this way. But to your point about these wives in association with their husbands, I can't help thinking about the ethos of traditional feminism versus intersectional feminism and how the OG feminism kind of upheld this narrow liberation of a certain demographic that didn't disrupt a certain social order. And I think the Magawives represent a certain womanhood that finds power in proximity to power. And they don't give a fuck about anybody else. They just care about how they can benefit from being in proximity to these strong men.

[E. Jean Carroll]

That's fascinating. Proximity. What a weak way of thinking. That is like the weakest. That's a really interesting thought. And we see that with Trump. Trump only thinks of himself, and everybody around him only thinks of him. Hence, basically, almost everybody in the Republican Party is a traditional wife, including the men.

[Amanda Montell]

I love to hear it put that way. And it really mirrors the gendered power dynamics and hierarchy of cults that we can think of from the 60s and 70s, including the People's Temple, aka Jonestown, and all the way to more recent years with nxivm. There is a man at the top, an opportunist, someone With a chip on their shoulder, Someone who believes that they're entitled to a certain power that maybe they were given a taste of from birth but weren't able to actualize completely. And then their inner circle, like, the second tier down, is this group of white, young, normatively beautiful women who sort of trade their sexuality and their performance of femininity for exactly what you're saying, Chelsea. A little bit more power. And I love the idea that if a man ends up in that inner circle too, that he's just a trad wife, too.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Lindsey Graham, J.D. vance, all of them trad wives.

[Chelsea Charles]

J.D. is a. Is a trad wife.

[Amanda Montell]

The traddiest.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Pretty soon, we're gonna see JD for more eye makeup in the lips.

[Amanda Montell]

I can see it, honestly. He has a face that looks like it could take a lot of makeup.

[Chelsea Charles]

Oh, my God. A very beatable face.

[Amanda Montell]

He does. Those eyes. They're big, they're round. They're ready for a palate.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Here's the thing. If you're zofting and brunette or brown, you are not a trad wife.

[Chelsea Charles]

That's facts.

[E. Jean Carroll]

No zoftings. Can you see any in power? Anybody who's zoftig? No. No. Except for Trump.

[Amanda Montell]

Honestly, Trump is in drag. He's beaten himself outside of, like, the bounds of humanity.

[E. Jean Carroll]

My friend Jill Harth, who was a Trump accuser, she was the first woman to sue him. She withdrew the suit, unfortunately, because her husband made her do it. She is a makeup artist, and when he started running in 2015, Jill ran into him at one of his rallies, and she drew him aside. She said, donald, listen, let me talk to you. You're going way too heavy on the orange. Listen to me just for a minute. I know you look good, and you look good on camera, but you got to bring down the orange, and you got to not do the contouring. We can see the contouring. And he wouldn't listen to her.

[Chelsea Charles]

We can see it.

[E. Jean Carroll]

We can see it. Let me ask you, if you have a friend or a cousin or someone who is a Trump woman, how do you speak to her? How do you get to move her brain?

[Amanda Montell]

That's a beautiful question. I don't have any of those. Well, I didn't even choose it. I was born into a family of communists, but famously, you can't change anyone's mind, so you have to sort of make them feel seen and respected enough while injecting enough glitches in their train of thought that they might be able to change their own mind. And it's not something that everyone can stomach. But in theory, if I were to go face to face, I think I would have to oddly mimic some of that proximity. Right. Like, people trust people who remind them of themselves, so you have to kind of cosplay. You know what I mean?

[E. Jean Carroll]

Wow, this is interesting.

[Chelsea Charles]

That's profound.

[E. Jean Carroll]

This is how you get to them,

[Chelsea Charles]

to basically piggyback off of that. I 1000% agree. I. I think that it is important to meet people where they are and not come from a condescending space. That, again, is very hard for me not to do when the facts are there. It would feel too weird to be in community with those people. But at the same time, like, when you're talking about accountability, you can only hold other people accountable who you are in community with. And I actually misspoke. I do have one person. I do have one person who I am in community with. And I make it a point to listen and to try to not come across judgy. But like I said, that's. That's extremely hard.

[Amanda Montell]

Not given.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yeah. Given all that we know.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Well, Chelsea, as I understand it, you're famous. You're famous for being able to produce love and companionship. You're famous for this.

[Chelsea Charles]

You know what? You're reading me. And I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Cause you're so totally right.

[Amanda Montell]

Wow. You are. You can actually manipulate closeness where it's least likely to happen.

[Chelsea Charles]

You're right.

[E. Jean Carroll]

You're creating love. How do we get these idiots away from the man they like and towards a more intelligent view of the world?

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God, Eugene, you're such a genius. Because, okay, Chelsea is a reality TV producer. Trump is a reality TV star who's managed to surround himself by all these wives like on the Bachelor. So how do we get Chelsea to play this man's reality TV game and get all these girls, Charlize to turn away to a new suitor? This question is so good.

[Chelsea Charles]

I am flabbergasted.

[Amanda Montell]

We have to treat it like a reality show now. This is empowering.

[Chelsea Charles]

You're so right. Because when you talk about reality stars, a lot of people don't realize, like, it has parallels with scripted. Obviously, there are parallels with the scripted world, but there are always these complex characters. Trump is what I would describe as a complex character. Right. Well, it's really not that complex, but anyway, he is a beloved villain. Okay. And so usually those are. Okay, this is behind the scenes, the producer favorites, because they are willing to, I guess, put themselves out there. So, yeah, you bring up an interesting point. Because there could be something there. We just need to cultivate love with this. I don't. I don't agree with this. We need to wait.

[Amanda Montell]

But I'm okay. Because if it's a producer favorite, there's someone who is not, like, super concerned with reputation management in terms of being, like, a good person. They're concerned with being the star that the producers want them to be.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

Trump doesn't have any feminist, morally centered producers, so to. To speak, in his inner circle. Someone needs to infiltrate.

[Chelsea Charles]

We need to infiltrate these spaces.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes. To make him play, because he seems easy to manipulate. Honestly, if you put him this way, if a producer says this will make you more of a star, this is so fascinating.

[Chelsea Charles]

He's in it for the clout.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Wow.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, so we talked a little bit about feminism and we teased it a little bit. So. So some women genuinely believe supporting Trump was a feminist act. As someone who directly challenged him, what do you make of that whole narrative?

[E. Jean Carroll]

I can't even take your words and turn anything that I can understand who would vote for Trump and call it a feminist act. It cannot be true. You cannot vote for Trump on feminist principles. That cannot be true. You are completely fooling yourself, which is a problem, because that's what's going on. Well, the thing is, they're not vaccinating anymore, and they're dieting to where they have no brain left. So of course they can't think because they're thin, they're white, they're covered in I don't know what kind of makeup. They lost the use of their brains.

[Amanda Montell]

You're completely right. And fooling yourself is. Is a critical mental magic trick within cults. You have to put pieces in place to let the dominoes fall such that these people can fool themselves. And I think one of the ways that women for Trump MAGA wives fool themselves is through the performance of femininity that they take on as a privilege, as a joy. It's something that many of us see in our social media feed. This high performance, almost drag like aesthetic of corsets and mocktails and girly pop nationalism. How do you characterize this uniform through a cult lens? And what do you think makes it effective?

[E. Jean Carroll]

These questions stun me. You explained it at the top of your show. There's a feeling of community among them, and they cannot be outsiders in their own community. As you say, the proximity to power, it's the love of a strong man, and I'm sick of that. You know, what about the love for a strong woman? You Know, your whole podcast, I find gobsmacking because success is so sickening. Because they are cutting medical care for their children, a woman's right to their own bodies, the education of women, the help to families. They are cutting it all off. And when they're cutting it off, they're giving all those billions of dollars to billionaires. They're giving it all to the people who do not need it because they love a strong man.

[Amanda Montell]

What you said about Trump caring only about himself and everyone surrounding him, caring only about him keeps coming back up for me here because it reminds me that he sets the standard of performance, of aesthetics, of mode of thinking or whatever. And his vibe is very like hyper masc, masculine. And he speaks in this like, rambling almost at like a fourth grade reading level, sort of like extreme, nonsensical way. Then to belong in a group that he is at the helm of, you have to fall into place. And that place means dressing like a trad wife, like you said, going on these ultra slimming diets, returning to some imagined fantasy of traditional 50s leave it to Beaver America. But he set that tone. Like at at first I was thinking, oh, like they created this culture. But he set the tone first.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Yeah, he said make America great, but that America never existed. The one he has in mind is the Leave it to Beaver thing. So I want your podcast to do something about this. It's up to you. We're trying.

[Amanda Montell]

We're trying. No, we should. Honestly, like, we're going to do more episodes like this. We are. And I'm so glad we're doing this. And I'm so glad that you're joining us for this conversation.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Well, I won't be a happy person for the rest of the day because. Because everything's so upsetting when you think about it. It's dangerous.

[Amanda Montell]

It's true. And we have to find ways to stay energized.

[E. Jean Carroll]

I want everybody on September 16th at high noon Eastern time, everybody's gonna tweet the same message. Okay. We're going to start attacking Trump with lightness and humor. Funny. We need to have people trust us. That's a big point. It's going to look like fun because nobody is telling Trump no and nobody is telling Trump thinks that he disagrees. So September 16th, high noon, we're all going to tweet the same message. Come to my substack E Jeancarrell, and you'll find out where to go. You have a downloadable calendar and we are going to attack in this light hearted, evil way every day. Because if he moves to try to stop us, he looks ridiculous. And if he does nothing, he looks weak. That's a start.

[Chelsea Charles]

I live for this. Do not threaten me with a good time, Eugene. This is my favorite type of evil.

[E. Jean Carroll]

I know.

[Chelsea Charles]

A little comedy.

[E. Jean Carroll]

And we will be coming to you for some ideas for our daily message.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, gorgeous. We would love to lend some copywriting consulting. Yes, yes.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Short and clever and witty and something gets to him. Okay, and if you could rhyme it, you know, if the glove fits, you know, you gotta quit rhyme.

[Chelsea Charles]

Thank you, thank you. You need some couplets. Oh, God.

[Amanda Montell]

Iambic pentameter.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, yes, I am pentameter. No, we got you. Say less.

[Amanda Montell]

Don't threaten me with a good rhyme.

[E. Jean Carroll]

I'm telling you, you don't even have to leave the house. You don't have to donate money. You don't have to do shit except just toast on Twitter or Reddit or blue sky or TikTok. Whichever your thing is, out it goes and let's hope, build to millions and millions of people doing this every day.

[Amanda Montell]

The cult of the savage witticism. You don't have to pay for a SoulCycle membership. You just gotta get a notebook out and start writing jokes.

[E. Jean Carroll]

That's good call to the widows of writing this.

[Chelsea Charles]

I'm crying. So, Eugene, as someone who challenged Trump directly, what is your understanding of the way these women work to protect and legitimize harmful power rather than question it? How do they do that and how do they justify it?

[E. Jean Carroll]

Well, it's not just trad wives. It's not just the cult of the Trump woman woman. It's. Every woman is fearful of coming forward or saying what happened because nobody believes her. That's why. That's very simple. Nobody believes. If you speak out against a powerful man and you're a woman, who are they going to believe? They're going to believe the powerful man. However, I beat Trump twice. The only person on the earth, and I'm fucking 81 years old. So if I can do it.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, it's so galvanizing. Because you're absolutely right. The fear of being gaslit and being demeaned, it's so immobilizing. I feel that way too, a lot of the time. But even, like in this conversation right now, I feel like, so loud. Cause you're here, so thank you.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Is that. What should we call this uprising? What should we call it? Loud. That's not a bad term. Loud. What should we call this thing? We're.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, I love the idea of, like, reclaiming a sort of slur or criticism lobbed against women's voices like shrieking, shrill. All of these things. There are so many. We'll create a little list. Long list. Long list.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Yeah. So women are not believed. And not only are they not believed, they're fired. God help a single mother who has kids. She cannot come out against the floor manager of the factory where she works. You know, nine. She can't come out against him. Likelihood she'll lose her job, maybe not immediately, but they'll work it out some way where she won't get the raise. So, you know, women have to calculate, do I feed my kids or do I tell the truth about this guy knocking on me every day? So that's why women don't. And we're, as you say, immobilized from birth to believe the powerful man. Even though every woman knows underneath we've all had bad things happen. Every single woman listening to this podcast. Every single woman, including those who are six years old, there's always something.

[Amanda Montell]

And, you know, I just. I keep thinking about how he's surrounded by these yes. People, people who don't push back to your point. And it makes sense that MAGA wives fit this profile of, like, thin, white, wealthy, et cetera, because for them, the patriarchy works. You're not going to have to say no that much. It's not going to be as tempting. But there's a reason why people who end up defecting from cults like this. It's only after they have a problem. They have a problem that is so urgent, that is so itchy, that is so painful, that they have to say something, and that is the moment when it no longer works for them. And that is the moment where they're ostracized and they realize that it's not working anymore. Until that moment, it works. But that's not going to work for people who don't fit this profile.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Right, Interesting. So if we ridicule Trump in these funny messages, will his followers start to think it's pretty uncomfortable for me. He's really all these ridiculous things. Will he look bad? Will he look powerful? If millions are saying these terribly cutting, funny things about, will he look powerful anymore?

[Amanda Montell]

Well, a story that comes to mind is one of the granddaughter of the founder of the Westboro Baptist Church. They protest outside of funerals. They have, like, the signs that say, like, God hates facts and stuff like that. This woman, her name is Megan, she engaged in a debate with someone who was politically opposing her on Twitter, and they chatted long enough that something he said was able to penetrate and she flipped. And so I feel like we don't all have hours and days and weeks and months and whatever to dedicate to one person. Almost like a mentee. We don't all have that time. But if we can all by the millions gather together and use the cutting power of humor, then maybe enough people will resonate with something that said in that throng of messages that it could start to make an incremental difference. That's a hopeful idea.

[E. Jean Carroll]

I am quoting you girl. Something will resonate.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh my God. Culties I cannot contain my enthusiasm in telling you about my favorite furniture brand and today's sponsor article. When I found out that article wanted to sponsor sounds like a cult, my heart burst out in song. I was so desperate for outdoor patio furniture and I found the perfect, perfect pieces on article. Now my back deck low key looks like a five star hotel. If you have literally any furniture needs and have any aesthetic mid century modern coastal scandi inspired, you just have to check out article. They make everything. I love their chairs. I love their couches. I love their bed frames. I love their tables. I obviously love their patio furniture. The quality of these items is bar none. The products come fully assembled or mostly assembled, which I love because I am not a woman in stem, I'm a woman in podcasting. They arrive with meticulous packaging. I felt like a queen when my article furniture arrived. The shipping is fast and affordable. Article offers seven day a week support, a 30 day satisfaction guarantee, and guess what? Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more. To claim, visit article.com cult and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com cult for $50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more.

[E. Jean Carroll]

More.

[Amanda Montell]

And we're live on Match day as Doug reaches for a buffalo wing. He's got it. Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi too.

[E. Jean Carroll]

What a finish.

[Amanda Montell]

There's no doubt about it, it just tastes better. Match Days deserve Pepsi. So before we get into the rest of our interview with the incredible, formidable Eugene Carol, I wanted to share with you Colte's something that happened with regard to the MAGA movement recently in my personal world. That kind of made this all feel newly real in an unexpected way for me. So my literary agent recently informed me that college professors are actually becoming hesitant to assign my book Cultish to put my book Cultish, the language of fanaticism on their class syllabi. This nonfiction book about language and group Think Think, because they fear retaliation from Trump and his administration, his supporters. As there are some moments that are critical of Trump's cultish speech in the book, I have stumbled across discourse here and there online where some readers were wondering why I choose to include critiques of Trump in the book strategically, because it could alienate some readers. And the wild thing about that is that I was actually putting finishing touches on my book cultish after Trump Trump's first presidency ended, and I could never have imagined he would enter the White House again. I also could never have imagined the size of the readership that would encounter my book. I wasn't writing the book strategically at all. I was writing it out of sincere curiosity. That's what informs all of my writing projects. And so I could have never predicted a world in which A, more readers than I expected would even find the book, B, a world in which Trump would be reelected and see that American universities in 2025 would be afraid even to discuss this book in the sanctuary within academia for fear of retaliation from the government. Trump has reportedly tried to have parts of the Constitution removed from the Library of Congress. He's had his impeachment removed from a Smithsonian exhibit. And somehow Ghislaine Maxwell has just released a statement saying that she never saw Trump do anything wrong right after being moved to a lower security prison. Right after Trump's personal attorney, who happens to be his appointed Deputy Attorney General to the United States, visited her in her former maximum security prison. There's just like such a quid pro quo, sort of hypocritical vibe going on, and. And this level of authoritarianism and corruption is happening in broad daylight, and yet there is still this unwavering faction of men and women who defend him no matter what, particularly the MAGA wives, the enablers, the influencers. These are the ones that we're going to continue discussing today in our episode on the Cult of Magawives. So with that, let's proceed with our interview with the inspirational and masterful Eugene. Carol, we have a couple more questions for you, Eugene. And then Chelsea devised, speaking of humor, just the most delightful game, Ask Me Easy Questions.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Because those questions you've been asking are impossible. They're hard. Ask something easy like, what are you having for dinner?

[Amanda Montell]

What are you having for dinner?

[E. Jean Carroll]

What should I have you tell me? I don't know.

[Amanda Montell]

What are you having for dinner, Chelsea?

[Chelsea Charles]

I'm gonna do a butterbean soup.

[Amanda Montell]

Ooh, that's right.

[Chelsea Charles]

With a little pesto dollops and some tomato confit. I've been planning it for three days. But, you know, I cook. That's my hobby. Amanda, what are you having?

[Amanda Montell]

She's a closet trad wife. Like, in the best way. Like, marry me. I don't know. I'm having whatever my husband's gonna cook. Hey,

[E. Jean Carroll]

okay, that's good, that's good.

[Amanda Montell]

I don't have time to think about that. I'm out here, girl, bossing too close to the sun, and Casey's gonna cook. Okay, okay. You know how historically, like, after 9, 11, Great Depression, la la la, conservatism was all the rage? People were like, you know what? Progressivism, it's too hard. Let's go back to some fantasy of the past. Why do you think that these nostalgic, oppressive visions of femininity resonate with women during these turbulent times? Like, fine, they resonate with men. Why are women embracing them? Like, it seems so upside down and backwards.

[E. Jean Carroll]

I think you're partly right, but I think after the Second World War, women, Women who had been in the factories returned to the home for about 15 years. And I thought, nope. And then we had Eleanor Roosevelt, we had the New Deal. Women then burst out. The call to conservative did happen. Women couldn't go to the factory and work. They couldn't do this. But they were in the homes for about 15 years and they said, no, fuck this, honey. Fuck this. Let's get out. Because obviously, we become conservative when we're frightened, and you become progressive when you're free and you're loving life.

[Amanda Montell]

Ooh.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

It's interesting that progress happens in good times because then people who traditionally get to occupy roles of power don't feel as threatened. And, like, how interesting is it that we don't recognize that pattern that says something that's like a cultish pattern that we need to pay attention to, to.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Well, people are frightened now because Trump's told them the end of the world is coming, that we're in, that America's forbidden this way. And this city, what he said about Baltimore, it's murder city. It's the worst city on earth. These are things. And those countries over there are countries, and it's all horrible. And I'm going to save you all. This is his thing. He tells you how bad it is that he's going to save you. Of course people are frightened. He's the President of the United States. He tells them to be frightened, they're gonna be frightened. But liberal times are coming again. He's not gonna be here forever in

[Amanda Montell]

doomsday, cults the rapture, the apocalyptic prophecy, it never comes. And so the people who still believe end up on the fringes. And the people who come to their senses do what people who come to their senses do, and they rejoin reality.

[E. Jean Carroll]

So lots of hope. This is good. This is good. That makes me feel good. Good. I'm gonna go tell my friends. That's good.

[Chelsea Charles]

Eugene, do you think men like Trump see MAGA wives as true partners in their movement or more as instruments in image management? People who help to uphold a narrative without necessarily being valued as individuals?

[E. Jean Carroll]

Don't ask me how men see women. Every man sees differently. Every man sees the woman he needs to see. If he needs to see that. That traditional wife, you'll see her. J.D. vance saw his wife, a lawyer and a graduate of, you know, Harvard. He saw her as a partner, and she's becoming more and more trad wife because J.D. vance is seeing her that way. And I hate to say it, women are guilty of this. They try to fit the man's vision. Sheer death. And I have been there. I have tried to make many a man happy. And I have made a couple of husbands very happy. And we had great marriages. The marriages were great. Just because a marriage ends doesn't mean it fails. So every man has a different vision, and every woman has to fit that different vision.

[Chelsea Charles]

I agree. I have a theory about Usha Vance, though.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Oh, okay.

[Chelsea Charles]

Because I feel like it is not by mistake that she showed up at the Republican National Convention in her modest blue dress with not a tinge of makeup, no red lip, no nothing, and no earrings. Even growing up in my household, that was a cardinal sin. No distracting jewelry. I think it is by design and very deliberate. Because. Because no one can tell me that an Indian American woman, child of immigrants, twice Ivy League educated, is just totally oblivious to the world that's happening around her. I think Usha is honestly, like, emblematic of what these MAGA wives represent, because I don't think they're just sitting there twirling their hairs and just acquiescing to their husband's humor. Hubris. I think that they're the ones who are captaining the ship. And I hate to even say that theory because it then absolves these men of any type of responsibility in this whole shit. But Usha's not fucking stupid. No.

[Amanda Montell]

And she's participating in a sort of transaction. Do you remember in my Big Fat Greek wedding when the mom goes, like, men are the head, but women are the neck?

[Chelsea Charles]

Yep.

[Amanda Montell]

It's like that. I'm so Sorry, I don't know if that was a Greek accent. I love Greek.

[Chelsea Charles]

No, that was good. That was good, girl.

[E. Jean Carroll]

You may have come up with something here. Now this is frightening and I'm going to have to stand up and leave the room because it's your podcast. You did this. You did it. Chelsea just did it. And Amanda just said I had nothing to do with this.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, you're going down with us. You're going down with us.

[E. Jean Carroll]

You just said, what if the Trad wives and the Trump cult women are running the show?

[Amanda Montell]

It wouldn't be the first time.

[Chelsea Charles]

It wouldn't be the first time.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, man. There's a lot of gender play in this, you know, like, they think it's so binary, they think it's so normative. But like, there's a lot of drag, there's a lot of performance, there's a lot of like, like flipping power dynamics. It's very interesting when you think of it as like performance art. Like if you strip away the stakes, it's fascinating.

[E. Jean Carroll]

For all we know, Melania is running this country.

[Chelsea Charles]

For all we know.

[Amanda Montell]

Honestly, for all we know. That just goes to show. We're just speculating. We're just. We're just yapologists doing our thing.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Cuz he's not getting in. He will go and he will try to make her happy. What she could be. She's smart enough running the show and it's your fault.

[Chelsea Charles]

She could be.

[E. Jean Carroll]

It's your fault.

[Amanda Montell]

You.

[E. Jean Carroll]

You made me think of it.

[Amanda Montell]

For the record, is Chelsea Charles the President of the United States?

[E. Jean Carroll]

That could be. For all we know, behind the scenes.

[Amanda Montell]

For all we know. We know. Eugene, before we start cooking dinner, we need to play a game.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Okay. Yeah.

[Chelsea Charles]

So, Eugene, for the first time in sounds like a cult history, we are gonna play a fun game of Magawife Mad Libs. So I'm gonna give you a few prompts to create a Magawife caption for our cover photo selfie for this episode. Okay, first of all, do you consent?

[E. Jean Carroll]

I think I consent.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay. All right. It's not enthusiastic, but it's functional.

[Chelsea Charles]

Can you give us a time of day? Just any time of day?

[E. Jean Carroll]

High noon.

[Chelsea Charles]

High noon.

[Amanda Montell]

Next. A noun.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Orange.

[Amanda Montell]

Flawless.

[Chelsea Charles]

Next. An adjective.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Delect.

[Ad/Promo Voice]

Next.

[Amanda Montell]

A noun.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Toilet.

[Chelsea Charles]

Love. And next. Another adjective.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Light.

[Amanda Montell]

Next. This is a little more than a part of speech, but we have all the faith in you. Next is a moral lesson about submission.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Moral lesson about submission. Moral lesson. Let me see. Only the strong survive.

[Amanda Montell]

Perfect.

[Chelsea Charles]

That was good. The next one, an extreme adjective Rambunctiously.

[Amanda Montell]

Love it. Okay, two more. An adjective.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Beautiful.

[Chelsea Charles]

And then the last one. A plural noun.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Tits.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God.

[E. Jean Carroll]

I can't wait.

[Amanda Montell]

I'm so excited. Oh, my God. Okay, Chelsea, are you gonna do the honors of reading this? Because I'm not gonna get through it without laughing. Beautiful.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, so, Eugene, this is our caption. Every day I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband. Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it. For Trump, our light leader, only the strong survive. Rambunctious family values. Beautiful titsfor Trump. You said that. You said that.

[E. Jean Carroll]

That's brilliant.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God. It is.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

It's so great.

[E. Jean Carroll]

Say that again.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay. Every day I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband. Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it. For Trump, our light leader, only the strong survive. Rambunctious family values. Beautiful tits for Trump. End quote. E. Jean Carroll on the ground.

[Amanda Montell]

Hashtag, Rambunctious family values. I love. I'm galvanized. Oh, my God. Okay. Eugene, you are a legend. You are a genius. You are a hoot and a holler. Thank you so much for joining this conversation. We worship you on the level of. Of cult leader. Can you please let our listeners know one more time about that rallying cry for September before we get off?

[E. Jean Carroll]

Just. E. Jean. Carol. On substack, they can get the downloadable calendar and get the phrase of the day, and then we are going to attack, period.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, Chelsea, it's time for our verdict. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which one do you think the cult of Maga wives falls into?

[Chelsea Charles]

I'm gonna pull a Eugene, and I'm gonna say, I don't even understand this question when it is quite obviously get the fuck out. You already know. Come on, y'. All.

[Amanda Montell]

I know. Yeah, I know. And this, I am reminded, is another reason why we don't always choose to cover one of these more extreme groups on the pod. Because it, like, takes away from the point, which is, like, to get to a verdict, it's obviously a get the fuck out. Yeah, like a group that coerces you to act against your own interests. Fall in line, say yes to everything, create enemies out of your allies and allies out of your enemies. It's just, like, so flip, flop, wackadoodle, dystopian, horrific. Sorry. It just is. You can wear red lipstick and vote for women's rights.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, I agree. I Think for me, it is a resounding get the fuck out. Because what annoys me about Magawise is that they agree with the idea that patriarchal societies are the only way society could ever even exist. And obviously we've seen in the early American examples of feminism, and early feminism was inspired by the Iroquois women, which they had very thriving matriarchal societies. And those women that were in positions, were in positions of power and not just influenced by proximity. And so for me, I'm just like, I don't know what kind of cognitive dissonance you have to practice to be able to be associated with the bullshit that is maga.

[Amanda Montell]

But, yeah, I don't know. I think ultimately, and this was discussed on our Incels episode too, but I think it partially has to do with, like, a profound lack of creativity in order to subvert generations old practices, whether they're as low stakes as, like, wedding traditions or as high stakes as the foundational system of imperialist patriarchy. You have to get a little bit inventive, and it's tiring. And there are a lot of systems in place already to convince you that you don't need to do all that, you don't want to do all that. And for these MAGA wives, they're the easiest people to convince that you don't need to do all that, that you don't want to do all that. But just get a little bit creative. Experiment with a little progressivism in your home, in private. See how it feels.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yep.

[Amanda Montell]

See how it feels to engage with your husband in an intellectual conversation where pushback is invited. I don't know. Try it out. See how it is. See how it feels.

[Chelsea Charles]

We invite you because it gets practice in my house every day.

[Ad/Promo Voice]

I know.

[Amanda Montell]

I was gonna say. I was like, we have a. We get a lot of practice. Oh, goody gumdrops. Well, Chelsea, you're iconic. Eugene. No, she's the hero. And that is our show.

[Chelsea Charles]

Thanks so much for listening.

[Amanda Montell]

Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty,

[Chelsea Charles]

but not too culty.

[Amanda Montell]

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Words Let Afford Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the soundslikeacult on Instagram for all the discourse Sounds like a cult pod. Or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult.

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