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- [00:00]
Amanda Montell
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- [00:57]
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- [00:59]
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- [01:42]
Anna Konkle
When I look back to Y2K, it isn't that dissimilar to today in a way that I find both scary and comforting. With teens having aim or craving, going on their own to the mall or craving all the social firsts like the social firsts are the same. They're just on steroids.
- [02:01]
Amanda Montell
Y2K was that first major panic and excitement born from the emergence of widespread Internet use and dependence. And the Internet was cool and fun and something you could use. But not a religion, not abuse. Yeah, exactly. This is sounds like a cult. A Show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of books including Cultish the Language of Fanaticism.
- [02:29]
Reese Oliver
And I'm Reese Oliver, sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar.
- [02:32]
Iman Haririkia
And I'm Iman Haririkia, author of Female Fantasy and Once in a timeline, which will hit bookshelves on October 13th.
- [02:39]
Amanda Montell
Every week on this show we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cults in culture from Botox to onetaste. To try and answer the big question,
- [02:49]
Reese Oliver
this group sounds like a cult, but is it really?
- [02:58]
Iman Haririkia
And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back or a get the fuck out.
- [03:08]
Amanda Montell
After all, cults and cultish thinking exist on a spectrum and not all cults are equally destructive. For every dangerous, nefarious modern day cult you'll find in the wild, like MAGA youth or people who are way too obsessed with Elon Musk, you'll also stumble upon a more harmless, more innocently communal group like, I don't know, people who love fan fiction or Shrekheads.
- [03:31]
Reese Oliver
So everybody grab your flip phone, don your flared jeans and head on over to your nearest neighborhood bunker to prepare for the end of the world. Because today we're talking about a subject that's evocative of both the colorful and the smart, nostalgic 2000s aesthetic and a digital doomsday panic. That's right. Today's topic is the cult of Y2K.
- [03:52]
Amanda Montell
And can I just say, before we get into the rest of our intro, y' all don't even know the treat of a celebrity guest that we have. Joining us later, any fans of Pen15 in the cult? Because we have recruited the one, the only Anna Conkle into the cult of Sounds like a cult today. Co creator and star of the iconic early 2000s based Hulu series Pen15, co created with Maya Erskine. Anna also has a new memoir out and she's going to be joining us later to analyze Y2K from all the culty angles. It's such a delight, but we have much to discuss before that.
- [04:33]
Reese Oliver
I actually think that we are the perfect people to be discussing this cult
- [04:38]
Iman Haririkia
because Amanda and I grew up in
- [04:40]
Reese Oliver
the first wave of Y2K and Rhys is a part of the second wave resurgence of Y2K.
- [04:46]
I am, I'm witnessing it. I feel in a weird, liminal space because I was like cognizant a little bit of y2k, mostly just like through media and watching people. So it's like this New wave is both new and nostalgic for me in an interesting way.
- [05:01]
Amanda Montell
And also because you are, dare we say, an old soul and ever so precocious. Oh, thank you. So you were cognizant of trends at the age of two the way I was cognizant of trends at the age of 12.
- [05:14]
Reese Oliver
I had an American Girl doll book that I read at the age of, like, seven or eight. Not like one of the books that was associated with the dolls, but, like, they had, like, lifestyle books. And one of them was a girl's Guide to Fashion. And I read it, and it was like, don't just wear whatever's trending. Make it your own. And I remember reading that advice and being like, and I was never the same.
- [05:34]
Your world opened up.
- [05:36]
Wow.
- [05:37]
Shout out to the cult of American girls for influencing you at such a prime age. That's amazing.
- [05:43]
Hallmark of my Y2. What's your guys's remembrance of Y2K?
- [05:47]
Iman Haririkia
I mean, Y2K.
- [05:49]
Reese Oliver
For me, I don't think of it as Y2K. The aesthetic, the brand, the oeuvre, the title. I just think of it as the era of my youth, because I came of age in Y2K. So when I think of Y2K, I think of, like, the painful, embarrassing experience of being a tween girl. Which is why Pen15 was such an important show for me, because there is such extreme dissonance of wanting more than anything in the world to grow up as fast as possible, but also just being unable to understand quite how young you really are. It's something that you can only experience when you're looking back on it, which is why it's so fun to talk about it now that we see Y2K as this, I don't know, romanticized, nostalgic wonderlust. It's crazy. What about you, Amanda?
- [06:40]
Amanda Montell
Ooh. I mean, I do have more romance around y2k now than I had fun during the actual era because I was a super late bloomer. Like, I was just this fucking pipsqueak, but surrounded by hot girls with boobs during the early 2000s who could dress like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears. But I remember in sixth grade, I went to the mall with my best friend who was six months younger than me, and the checkout gal at Claire's thought she was my babysitter. So I could not embrace the Y2K aesthetic at that age. I was just too puny.
- [07:19]
Reese Oliver
Speaking of Claire's a Mecca of Y2K.
- [07:22]
Oh, my God.
- [07:22]
A holy space still alive today.
- [07:25]
Amanda Montell
So, yeah, Like, I find it fascinating that the Y2K aesthetic is back. I am generally interested in nostalgia based cults. We have covered many of them on this show, from American Girl Doll, we did that episode to Disney adults. And I also remember the turn of the millennium being one of my first memories of learning about a conspiracy theory because of the doomsday end of the world discourse around the computers getting fucked and the world ending as soon as the clock struck midnight on the year 2000. And I was really fascinated by that. So those are kind of the two angles of Y2K, the like aesthetic nostalgia based angle and the doomsday angle. And we are going to touch on them both and how they're connected throughout today' episode.
- [08:12]
Iman Haririkia
Well, let's jump into the history of
- [08:14]
Reese Oliver
the cult and we can talk about the connection between doomsday spiraling and cute butterfly aesthetics and clips in your hair and sparkles and bedazzles and big colorful clothing.
- [08:30]
Iman Haririkia
So Y2K refers to an early 2000s
- [08:33]
Reese Oliver
fashion and lifestyle aesthetic, also known as
- [08:36]
Iman Haririkia
cybercore, which focuses on neo futurism. So think like bright colors, prints and patterns, but also the introduction of technological advancement. But funny enough, the term Y2K wasn't actually popularized as a mainstream descriptor for this era until the 2000s, but we'll get back to that later.
- [08:59]
Reese Oliver
Amanda, I don't remember calling Y2K Y2K until the 2020s, do you?
- [09:05]
Amanda Montell
Well, Y2K specifically referred to the end of times a bit.
- [09:09]
Reese Oliver
I remember Y2K being a doomsday event, but not necessarily that era.
- [09:15]
Iman Haririkia
The term can also describe the vibe shift in the 2000s in the wake of 911 and the subsequent war on terror. So society started answering the public's paranoia with the introduction to and the advancement of so much new technology. Think iPods, colorful MacBook desktops and Motorola razors. And people were simultaneously feeling more isolated and more connected than ever. Now, experts don't necessarily agree on the origins of Y2K fashion and esthetic, but the trend cycle most commonly associated with Y2K was particularly popular in Asia, especially Japan, China and South Korea. So this can be seen in the 2000s in the Rise of the Harajuku girl and cyber fashion as well as in present day with the same success of K pop artists who gravitate towards Y2K clothing and accessories.
- [10:07]
Reese Oliver
Oh, it's so funny to me to think about that being where Y2K fashion started, because it really can look like that so much of the time and it can be so. Emmanuel mentioned during Our interview, like, Olivia Rodrigo and she's so cute, looking like Gwen Stefani and everything. But then, like, when I think Y2K fashion, the picture that is seared in my brain is that picture of Ashley Tisdale. And I feel like you know which one I'm talking about. That whatever on the carpet with, like, jeans and, like, two skirts and three belts and a pair of sunglasses. Just too many accessories series.
- [10:34]
Never enough layers.
- [10:35]
Amanda Montell
The layers were layering in the gaucho
- [10:39]
Reese Oliver
pants, the foam flip flops that were, like, 3 inches tall. So many layers. So many good things about Y2K fashion.
- [10:45]
Amanda Montell
I'm seeing a sequined handkerchief as a belt.
- [10:48]
Reese Oliver
Yes. Lots of, like, elastic sequin headbands and fedoras.
- [10:54]
Yeah, bro.
- [10:55]
Amanda Montell
The way I wore so many headbands and, like, peacock feathers in my hair. But again, I was not cool. I did not turn one look. It was so bad. And also, we will get into the true ugliness of the everyday Y2K girl versus, like, the red carpet version and the contemporary softened version. We will get into that discussion with Anna later.
- [11:17]
Reese Oliver
No, we will. But back to the limited two of it all. Let's dive like a Lisa Frank dolphin a little further into what the Y2K aesthetic actually looked like. So Y2K style initially took its cues from the retrofuturism trends of the 70s. So lots of bright colors. Lime.
- [11:34]
Ad Voice
Greedy.
- [11:34]
Reese Oliver
Some bright orange. So much hot pink. Oh, my God. But oftentimes also a lot of metallics. And keeping in theme with the 90s, also lots of leopard print. So we're combining a lot of different aesthetics here. We've got some of, like, the neo futuristic stuff. There was a lot of, like, tribal aesthetics happening at the time. A lot of animal print, like I was saying. Also a lot of psychedelia, psychedelic pieces like tie dye, lava lamps. I kind of think some of that was remnants of the celestial aesthetic movement of the 90s. I know y' all remember that basically the people yearn for a Cheetah Girls reunion tour. The people yearn for fun. The people yearn for funky. We want prints and patterns and draping and lots of skin. All kinds of fun stuff. And the toys and technology were equally as bright, bulky, and eye catching. I know everybody remembers or has seen Elle woods bright orange Mac Game Boys, digital cameras, bedazzled sidekicks. My sister had a really cool. I don't even know what kind of phone it was, but it was maroon and it slid horizontally and vertically. And I was jealous. Basically, any opportunity to make graphic design choices that were like, chunky, sparkly, in your face, lots of fun, was very accepted and welcome. This was a very maximalist era. We had no time for your clean girl bullshit, which could also be seen in the interior design choices. I'm thinking about some of the sets of those iconic Nickelodeon shows. Like Brain Surge was a little bit later, but just like Nickelodeon, I think is a pretty good example of some of the earlier maximalist.
- [13:00]
Zoe.
- [13:01]
Anna Konkle
One on one.
- [13:02]
Reese Oliver
Yes. Zoe 101. All of the bedroom. Hannah Montana's bedroom. That was a little later. Anywho, we are forgetting scandi, minimalism and all the grayish apartments of yesteryear. We want butterfly chairs. I want bead bags. I want my furniture to be inflatable. Whimsy is the name of the game. More is more. If you are a participant in this cult, the walls in your room were covered in posters. Your windows had beaded curtains in them, and your bed was absolutely swallowed by throw pillows. Maybe it was even a water bed.
- [13:28]
Amanda Montell
Oh, wow. It's funny that you said the grayish apartments of yesteryear because it would really be the grayish apartments of. But that's the funny thing is that, like, Y2K means these two things that are so closely related but slightly different. It means, like the actual era that we earnestly experienced and the comeback. And I mean, this is how the trend cycle works. The psychedelic, nouveau riche inspired 60s aesthetic came back in the 90s. Like, I remember being a child of the 90s with, like, glow in the dark peace sign stickies on my bedroom ceiling and whatever, but the early 2000s decor style. I remember coming back in the early 2000s and it was renamed as Dopamine Chic, or like the Dopamine trend.
- [14:11]
Reese Oliver
Dopamine decor or whatever.
- [14:13]
Amanda Montell
Dopamine decor, yeah, because I think people were longing for a time when you wouldn't get these small, unsatisfying hits of dopamine by scrolling on your phone. You would get like, a deluge of dopamine by entering your colorful bedroom. But was it really all that happy? That is an important question to examine, and it brings us to the moment when Y2K becomes less of just like a cult followed aesthetic trend and more of potentially a sinister cult.
- [14:46]
Iman Haririkia
Well, it's no coincidence that the return of Y2K aesthetic has coincided with end times. Because in the years that led to the turn of the millennium, the public began speculating about the threat of the Y2K scare, which was also known as the year 2000 problem. So for those not familiar, this referred to a series of computer programs and errors that were unable to store data or distinguish dates past the year 1999.
- [15:15]
Reese Oliver
The idea was that computers couldn't process that many zeros and all technology was going to end at the same time
- [15:23]
Iman Haririkia
as the world the second that the
- [15:25]
Reese Oliver
clock turned midnight on the year 2000.
- [15:27]
Iman Haririkia
The lack of information and clarity around this led so many people to speculate that society was headed towards a technological apocalypse that it led to mass hysteria, even encouraging true devout believers to purchase firearms, generators, bury large piles of money and stock up on food and water. So you know your typical culty doomsday prepping. Of course the clock struck Midnight, the year 2000 began and DA da da da, nothing happened. Companies simply fixed this problem and upgraded
- [16:02]
Reese Oliver
their computer systems and moved on.
- [16:05]
Iman Haririkia
But the problem was addressed. The conspiracy theories certainly set the tone
- [16:10]
Reese Oliver
for the decade to follow.
- [16:11]
Iman Haririkia
In fact, then US President Bill Clinton even referred to the White case scare as the first challenge of the 21st century.
- [16:20]
Amanda Montell
Successfully met.
- [16:21]
Reese Oliver
Way to pat yourself on the back, Melody.
- [16:24]
Not Bill Clinton taking credit for nothing happening.
- [16:27]
Keep America safe. He's like, guys, crisis averted. Just doing my job.
- [16:31]
Thank God. But some might say that anxiety still lingers. It's inspired a string of Y2K themed music, movies and memes media, as well as a series of spin off conspiracies such as the year 2010 problem, the year 2022 problem, and of course some conspiracy theories around leap years.
- [16:51]
Amanda Montell
Yes, and if this wave of conspiratorial thinking corresponding to new and unpredictable technological advancements sounds familiar, that is no coincidence. I think now's the time to get into a deeper analysis of the cult of Y2K and all that that means with our special Anna Konkle. Anna is an actress, writer, director and as we mentioned, her comedy series Pen15 was ripe with Y2K nostalgia, really positioning her as a Y2K scholar of sorts. She is the high priestess of Y2K. So after the break, tune in to
- [17:30]
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- [20:03]
Anna hi. Nah to some welcome to Sounds like a Cult.
- [20:08]
Anna Konkle
Thank you for having me.
- [20:10]
Reese Oliver
For those who don't know who you are, could you please introduce yourself to our lovely listeners?
- [20:14]
Anna Konkle
Yes, my name is Anna Konkle and I am a co creator of the television show Pen15. That one may or may not have Watched.
- [20:22]
Amanda Montell
And both are valid and famously, you're the author of a new memoir that we should promote that I'd love to cover.
- [20:29]
Anna Konkle
And it's called the Sane One. Yes, on sale now.
- [20:32]
Amanda Montell
It's so great. It's so great. Okay, but today we're here to talk about the cult of Y2K. There are many ways into this discussion, but when we say that phrase, the cult of Y2K, what does that mean to you exactly?
- [20:46]
Anna Konkle
Anna, that is a great question. For so many years, Y2K was just about the environment in which I truly grew up and you know, was 13. And so for me it equals tween and the in between. And for me wasn't a teenager and wasn't a kid and this freaky in between time that was under discussed. But the irony is like the environment was tween too. I think the Internet was tween.
- [21:11]
Amanda Montell
And so that inherently feels kind of like pure and wholesome and decentralized like the Internet. And you and I and anyone who's like generally our age, we're just kind of like finding ourselves. We couldn't organize into something akin to a cult. But now Y2K has transfigured into a whole separate beast. How do you think that it has become this like cult followed thing since we earnestly experienced it?
- [21:41]
Anna Konkle
It's sort of strange to me on one end. On the other end, it feels the natural course of like looking back and trying on something that isn't current and sort of cosplaying in it. And it was weird after Pen came out for Maya and I probably like three years in looking around. And I think it was just in the zeitgeist, but like teens were suddenly wearing the things that we wore and there was a longing for certainly simpler times and probably like a sweetening of what it really was like, you know, and we all do that and our parents did that of like back in my day I had a walk to school or whatever. And the Internet being a part of the time now and not then is pretty huge. So I think it is all connected to that specifically and in terms of like the way that we bring Y2K into fashion, it's very interesting. I do think that it's not exact. The little sunglasses, for example, in real life, they were like the big Paris Hilton glasses. So everything's not literal, right? It's referential, I guess.
- [22:47]
Reese Oliver
Yeah.
- [22:47]
Iman Haririkia
Well, I wonder if you think that there's anything particularly culty about the nostalgia associated with. With the Y2K resurgence. Do you think that there's something about desiring uniformity. Do you think that there's a desperate
- [23:03]
Reese Oliver
yearning to be a part of a community when we're so isolated because of technology or post pandemic?
- [23:11]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, in some ways it feels like. And the sort of mission statement of PEN15 is like it's all a mirror to any time. Because sometimes when I look back to Y2K, it isn't that dissimilar to today in a way that I find both scary and comforting. But with teens having aim or craving, going on their own to the mall or craving, you know, all the social firsts, like the social firsts are the same. They're just on steroids. They're just. Now there's like these avatar versions of happening with firsts that I guess were there in Y2K but it was like the baby seed and now it's so mega. But I don't know if there's like a feeling with the times now of everyone being way more isolated versus Y2K where maybe because the Internet wasn't as integrated or like it is or as high speed or whatever, that it wasn't as fragmented.
- [24:04]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, I feel like during Y2K, you're absolutely right. Like so many of the angsts that existed among young people then are the same as today. It's just that there are more uncanny ways of expressing those angsts and more uncanny guess fuels to put on that fire, if that makes sense. But back when we were tweens during the Y2K era, the Internet felt like a place where you would go and you would like do a thing, have your aim time or blog or whatever and then you would leave. And that felt almost like going to church on Sunday. You're not a deep dyed believer, but like you're going to go in and then you're going to get out. And now the Internet is, is the water we swim in. It follows us everywhere. We're on the Internet right now.
- [24:56]
Reese Oliver
Like yes.
- [24:57]
Amanda Montell
So in that way I feel like cults often form around major cultural shifts. And Y2K was that first major panic and excitement born from the emergence of widespread Internet use and dependence. And do you think that now people are romanticizing this time when like the Internet was cool and fun and some something you could use but not a religion, not abuse. Yeah, exactly.
- [25:28]
Anna Konkle
I mean I personally do fantasize around what life would be if we could have just not introduced high speed Internet, if it just stopped at dial up because we did get to the world wide web like it did connect us. And it was the beginning of a time where, yeah, you could connect with people across the world. And there's gotta be something really positive and amazing about that. And I think it is. But what happens when it never stops? And I think also being able to look back to the beginning of something is much more reassuring than looking forward and going. That was the beginning of something that will never stop, probably. Unless tech and AI, like, implodes and steals all our money from the banks and then we are left with, like, no power, Internet or tech. Sorry. This is going to become doomsday. Which is why there's a cultiness around it. Right.
- [26:19]
Reese Oliver
That's kind of what we're here to do.
- [26:21]
Iman Haririkia
Yeah.
- [26:21]
Amanda Montell
I can't help but wonder if people will romanticize this time when the AI panic and excitement, whatever, like, it's the same thing. Now with regard to AI. I mean, I do think that the consequences of AI are even scarier. But it does seem like not a natural consequence, in fact, a very unnatural consequence of what happened with the digital boom during Y2K. It is very doomsday.
- [26:48]
Reese Oliver
I'm seeing it already of people being like, dang, remember when Twitter was good, like two years ago? It's just, just always the cycle. I'm thinking about a lot of things. I'm thinking about the ritualistic behavior of visiting the computer and being able to thus leave it. That might have existed in an earlier Y2K time, and it doesn't really exist anymore. And I'm wondering, Anna, what rituals or ritualistic behaviors that you pick up as being performed by the Y2K cult today? Or maybe even just how things have changed? Like, I'm thinking about things like the endless scroll. I think that in itself is kind of ritual.
- [27:23]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, I mean, my mind just went to like a Tamagotchi, and then it went to the Sims, and then it went to just this constant need to wanna play out what we experience as human beings again and again and again and again. And the avatar of living an identity on the Internet and a life through the Internet is, I think, just that same quest of being human in the world and seeing it reflected back at you again and again. And it's like. Like now with tech, there's just layers that are never ending. And I think to bring it back to Tweendom. The irony is that what you experience in middle school and at age 13 is the first internal need of, like, socializing and seeing your experience played out in front of you as a means of understanding yourself, which is Why? I think friendship is really interesting and important at that age. But the rituals, I think that experience of being on AIM and putting up an away message, curating the quote of the away message and then curating like the profile on AIM with like, how many asterisks are you gonna do? Or like, what's the song quote you're gonna put on? Like, who are you that searching for identity, it's just on steroids. And so the drive is so strong in us, so it just seems like it is gonna continue to advance.
- [28:42]
Amanda Montell
That's so true. And I think because trends move so quickly and because we are so physically disconnected so much of the time while engaging with those trends trian regulating an identity among, you know, it's like, oh, this person is like putting on face gems and like this person is listening to this music and now, oh no, that music is cringe now. It just becomes so much more disorienting. And so you don't even have time to like fully experiment or like fully acquaint yourself with the ritual.
- [29:09]
Anna Konkle
It's so true. And that's something I've been trying to put words to recently and have failed, which you just did perfectly. That the seeking of identity and that one, it's sort of beautiful. And that nowadays there are so many different identities to point to where you're like, oh, that's me. Oh, that's me. But there's something stunting about it, is my instinct.
- [29:28]
Iman Haririkia
Yeah. I think in the first iteration of Y2K, the emphasis on self expression was
- [29:33]
Reese Oliver
a lot more so about experimentation. And in this iteration of Y2K, it's about solidification, it's about selecting one of many options for an identity and then building an entire ethos around it. It's like picking the box that you
- [29:48]
Anna Konkle
categorize into because there's influencers. Is that why? For the most part, to 0.2. Because before as a kid there was Britney Spears or to be alt was to be goth. Like, it felt way overly simplified. Where you're like, am I on that lunch table? Or I'm that lunch table? And now there's this rainbow, which is like in some ways stunningly beautiful. But then it's all monetized and perfectly curated and it's for sale. And like, it's just bizarre.
- [30:15]
Reese Oliver
I think it's just like the marriage of social dynamics and capitalism that just keeps pushing this idea of like branding being an end all, be all even. You know, there was colloquialism going around at the beginning of the year, about 2026 rebrands, which was like a TikTok trend and lighthearted and joke, but just the idea that we're moving away from resolutions and this idea that we should, like, pick one new thing to try or explore, experiment with and try to better ourselves through it, and instead pick a new identity to push outward to the people who consume you. It's just. It feels a little, as you mentioned, doomsday. Which brings me to my next question. A big marker of the first wave of y2k was this end of the world panic around technology, where so many people, especially young people, were convinced that at the turn of the millennia, the world would dramatically end at midnight because technology could not conceive of time moving past the year 2000. Can you think of any similar moments, say, in recent history that we could have experienced that panic where things started
- [31:29]
Amanda Montell
to get a wee bit culty?
- [31:31]
Anna Konkle
I mean, politics, certainly right now, I'll say kind of choosing which side of the aisle you're on feels tied to survival.
- [31:40]
Amanda Montell
Oh, my God. Speaking of Y2K and politics and cults, you mentioning that makes me think of Spencer Pratt. I don't know if, like, the country is paying attention in the same way, but an early 2000s reality TV villain was running for mayor of Los Angeles and pulling. Well, that feels very doomsday as well. And it also feels connected to this Y2K nostalgia that we keep referencing. And I kind of want to problemat because as wonderful as life was before the iPhone, in certain ways, as a tween in the early 2000s, I was fucking miserable. And I guess that had more to do with being a tween than anything. But I actually appreciate the Y2K resurgence, the, like, revised history of it all, because it allows me to kind of block out some of the uglier parts of that time in my life and enjoy the nice bits.
- [32:37]
Reese Oliver
It's a do over.
- [32:37]
Amanda Montell
Yes, it's a do over. Because I never really got to enjoy the aesthetic of Y2K at that time because I was depressed and now I can't. And that feels like healing of my inner tween.
- [32:48]
Anna Konkle
You know, love that. I've never thought about it that way,
- [32:51]
Amanda Montell
but I do think that that impulse to want to, like, heal your inner child, heal your inner tween through a trend or a commodified aesthetic or, I don't know, a community where, like, someone somewhere is benefiting in probably nefarious ways that can make for some culty stuff. I don't know. Rhys, what do you think?
- [33:10]
Reese Oliver
I agree with what you're saying, I think that part of the Y2K nostalgia for me, I mean, I wasn't there. I mean, I was there, but I was such a baby that it always felt kind of like what my cool older sister was doing. But also in hindsight, now looking back on it, I am seeing a lot of aspects of it that weren't so great, like heroine chic. And in some ways I feel like with this new wave of Y2K, we are confronting it with fresh eyes and in some ways, you know, the rise of the GLP1, et cetera. I feel like we're letting ourselves have a do over with a little bit too much grace. I think. I think this nostalgia is being utilized in different ways by different people. I think there's a very wholesome way to live in this nostalgia. And then I think there is a group of people that are leading into this nostalgia and taking advantage of it for the worse. And that kind of leads me to this next question that I'm kind of scared to ask. Do you think that people today are more or less susceptible to Y2K style group think? Because it feels like pretty much every six months TikTok is like the world is ending and everything's over and everyone's like, okay, yeah, great. And then repeat.
- [34:08]
Anna Konkle
I mean, I feel like that is the way of the world, that it always repeats that way. And that there's this need for us to constantly be reflected back in what we're watching or doing or seeing or working. Like the minutiae of how we survive every day, what we're eating, how we clean ourselves, like the little minutiae. And then there's will I die tomorrow? Will I survive? What will happen next week? It's like the small and the big next to each other always, I think. And so the doomsday just to me feels like something that is a human, that we crave it. And it's a way to get an answer of what next week will look like. Even if it's a really bad answer, it's something we just want to know. And I think the thing with the Internet and AI is that it's exaggerating and making everything that we need and crave, good and bad, like more extreme.
- [35:07]
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- [36:06]
Amanda Montell
I have a question that we weren't planning to ask, but who do you think were the cult leaders of the Y2K aesthetic and way of thinking during the actual early 2000s? And who do you think are the Y2K cult leaders now?
- [36:23]
Anna Konkle
I mean, Britney Spears is a go to. I've been thinking a lot about the first time, like, her music video came on TRL and it was like mirroring back what we wanted to be, which was like to grow up and have boobs and be pretty and sexualized before we were ready to maybe me at least, and wearing things that were like, kid, like a safe sexualization of things. So I think that. Which was probably, we know, like, really hard on Britney.
- [36:57]
Amanda Montell
She was like a saint, the patron
- [36:59]
Reese Oliver
saint of ranch culture.
- [37:01]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, there it is.
- [37:02]
Anna Konkle
And for our parents, too, I think, to some degree was like a safe, quote unquote sexualization of, like, a teen. It sort of sanded the corners of real sexuality and real womanhood and real teendom and a real mirror of all of us, what we really looked like. And it was just very white, Americana, cookie cutter.
- [37:24]
Amanda Montell
It's so funny that you went there to, like, the pop culture side, because when I was thinking about what my answer to that question might be, I was thinking, like, the people running Y2K end of the world forums online, like, recruiting people to think that the world was ending.
- [37:39]
Reese Oliver
And wow, Y2K was two very different times.
- [37:44]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, it was everything at once.
- [37:45]
Amanda Montell
But on the news, it was like, oh, you know, like there are these, like, kooky, wild freaks, like, who think that. At least that's what I remember.
- [37:53]
Anna Konkle
My memory is that that was there, but that it was also like people on the news saying, it's unlikely, but there is an unpredictability to what three zeros will do to the computer systems and that it could read it as that a date no longer exists because some of these systems aren't set up for those zeros. And will it set off nuclear bombs?
- [38:15]
Amanda Montell
Oh, my God. I wasn't tuned into that broadcast. Okay, wait, but this is a parallel to today because again, it's on steroids, as you keep saying. But today it's like we have Zara Larson and we have Elon Musk piggybacking
- [38:29]
Reese Oliver
off of what you were saying, Amanda, like, about how maybe Britney Spears or the Spice Girls or Destiny's Child could be looked at as cult leaders of Y2K fashion in, you know, the not. But then if you look at the cult leaders of Y2K fashion today, you might look at someone like Tate McRae is like, basically wearing all of the same trends and fashion looks as the heroes of the knots. Olivia Rodrigo wears a lot of the same, like, schoolgirl harajuku core outfits that Gwen Stefani did in her no Doubt days and her early music days. So basically everything that's old is new. Again, my question for you is, like, why does Y2K fashion feel, like, almost tribal in that when you're walking down the street and you see a group of five to 10 teen girls all in their, like, Brandy Melville drip, you know what you're seeing and the hair is on the back of your arms raised and you're like, they are approaching. They are here from, as you mentioned, the tiny sunglasses, which maybe are not exactly period accurate to a lot of metallic bedazzling. Alazara Larson, is aesthetic nostalgia then functioning
- [39:41]
Iman Haririkia
like a belief system?
- [39:42]
Reese Oliver
Are we worshiping some sort of, like, romanticized version of early Internet? Why does this sort of tribalism exist?
- [39:50]
Anna Konkle
I feel like it is a sweetened version of what it really was. And those little sunglasses are an interesting example, I think. Like, it's not literal, but it's the feeling of cutesy camp a little bit and the silly furs. Like, there's almost like a dress up feeling with it that I think is different from parents being tweens in the 50s and how they dress. Because it's, like, helpful to go to the different generations of, like, is this something that just always is, or is this. This actually different? But it feels like the Y2K tween dumb was like, cutesy in a way that is easy to be reachable. But it's also probably nostalgic from a kid perspective of childhood of like, I'm wearing little heels and I'm wearing, like, sparkles. I think the reality was, was uglier in the sense of, like, even thinking of the computer and even thinking of set design. For pen 15, it was like we were always de shining. It was like, no, the bedroom actually wasn't that cute. Like, that corner had, like, gross, dirty laundry with period blood. And the computer in the living room, like, there weren't stickers on it that cost a lot of money, and it was a tool for the whole family. And you know what I mean? So there's this practicality, ugly, large, not convenient mechanism that actually threaded through that time really robustly. But I think we're looking back on it and seeing convenience and seeing cute and seeing small. And, like, that's the zoom out for me.
- [41:19]
Reese Oliver
I think, like, the cute girlishness is such a big part of it because I think a lot of our corrective nostalgia is making it a lot more feminine than it was. Because, like, you know what my older sister, who I thought was so cool, was wearing every day in the year 2000 board shorts? Lived, died, breathed in plaid board shorts every day. So I totally see what you're saying.
- [41:39]
Amanda Montell
I was thinking, too, like, the times that we're living in obviously shape how Y2K fashion was reimagined because, like, we're living in highly conservative, dare I say, fascistic times when you have, like, MAGA wives who are, like, lip plumped and trump way face and the hemlines are long. And we're not living in sexually liberated times anymore.
- [42:01]
Reese Oliver
No.
- [42:02]
Amanda Montell
And there are, like, pros and cons to living in sexually liberated times for women. But right now, Y2K aesthetic, it would be cutesier because the culture right now doesn't want women to be sexually free. But I wonder, Anna, like, can you talk a little bit more about how you resisted the urge to romanticize the Y2K aesthetic on the set of Pen15?
- [42:23]
Anna Konkle
Yeah. And I was also going to say really quickly that an issue we ran into with pen15 was, like, sourcing material for set dressers or for the costume designer. And at the end of the day, the images that are readily available were pop stars and was red carpet. And I mean, now it's like, there's an influx of our everyday life and images we're gonna look back on and be like, oh, my God, I didn't need to take a picture of that. But back then, like, we were taking out our yearbooks and taking pictures of the yearbook and going like, this is actually what we were wearing. It wasn't what Lizzie McGuire looked like that's what I wanted to look like. And I think that brings us back to what it was like kind of de glowing or de dreamifying. Pen15, that was a constant thing, whether it was in the writer's room or on set or in direction. I think part of that was the energy in which Pen was created, in which was like a reject ness, which was supposed to be true to being a tween and going like. Like in TV, largely, we have seen the Lizzie McGuire version that we all loved or Raven. And then there's after, there's Teen and there's Saved by the Bell, but there's also 90210. But this tween version that is R rated is experiencing these wild firsts before you're ready has been inherently told that it's too ugly or too weird or too unsavory or too just not worth telling to be on screen. And so it became important to us and a great mission statement to let that continue to seep into everything where it's like we're conjuring a memory. If we conjure the TV that we've already seen, or the characters or the sets or whatever that we're told was our history, then we're missing the nuance and the poetry. That's the whole point of making this thing, you know? But I do think that what makes me and Maya laugh and excited or sad or whatever is like the ugly next to the pretty, whatever that means in a memory. And so it's sort of an annoying going on TikTok and going on Instagram and seeing the parts of Pen15 or the parts of tweendom or y2k that are extracted, because it's not the point to me, you know what I mean? It's like, overly beautified. And it's the opposite that unites us, and it's the opposite that makes tweens hopefully relate to PEN15.
- [44:47]
Reese Oliver
Now, whenever I talk about PEN15, the episode that I always tell people to
- [44:52]
Iman Haririkia
watch watch is the Spice Girls episode,
- [44:54]
Reese Oliver
because I think it so perfectly does what you just mentioned you set out to do. It juxtaposes something that is, like, ripe with really fun, beautiful, glitzy nostalgia, which is the Spice Girls, with sort of like this underlying coding of social racism and the ways in which, like, Teen Girls are categorized. And we feel like we all have a role to play and we want to be included so badly. And when you're young, you don't know words like microaggressions and xenophobia you just know in and out, like, mean and nice, cool and loser, and that's what you're experiencing. So that's always the episode that I fall back on because I feel like it just really, really demonstrated what you guys set out to do, and it captures such magic of that era.
- [45:38]
Amanda Montell
Before you ask the next question, I just want to say, when I went to your book tour event, Anna, just the other week, you mentioned that a very, very, very early version of the TV project that you wanted to work on with Maya actually started as a story about a cult.
- [45:55]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, it did.
- [45:55]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, really.
- [45:56]
Amanda Montell
And I actually think you did end up making a show about a cult, because being, like, in a tween clique is a lot of people's first experience of being in a cult.
- [46:08]
Anna Konkle
Whoa. So true. That's so interesting. Well, also, like, going into the writer's room, I. I think me and Maya's instinct was to, like, break story from an emotional arc and, like, the climaxes. So often it's like, now I know through having done it longer, where it's like, well, how can we get the physical, real explosion to happen in the third act or whatever? And in pen, it was like, well, wait, wait, there's an emotional climax. And sometimes that would look like talking about experiences that you've, like, sort of gaslit yourself into going or from society from going, like, well, that's not a big deal, and that's me being sensitive or whatever. And one of them was my experience of, like, being a woman of color, a girl of color, and, like, around a group of mostly, you know, white friends in her middle school was like, them coining her scary spice. And then she would say, in the writer's room. But I played into it, and I like, da, da, da. And then we started to unpack that and go. You were essentially in a position of clowning to please this group because that was the position that you felt accepted in. And that's fucked up. But it's amazing to look back at the time in that room and going like, she was nervous talking about it. And there were things that I was nervous talking about going, well, this doesn't qualify as something legitimate for an episode of television or whatever. And I think it was helpful having each other validate that. Like, if something feels big emotionally, it's probably because it was 100%.
- [47:32]
Reese Oliver
I identified with that so much. And it's funny because, like, on a top global level, the original surge of Y2K came in the wake, yes, of, like, the technological uprising, but then also, 9 11, the recession, the war on terror, all these, like, big global paranoias that led to the social current of it's cool to care, it's cool to be politically engaged. Like, it's honestly cool to be earnest. And similarly, the resurgence of Y2K came in the wake of really terrible political isolation, the pandemic which led people to feel more alone than ever. All of the, this fear over the world, ending the environment, technological advancement. But instead it led to, like, a sense of nihilism and like, it's cool to care as little as possible in young people and might as well give up now because we're living on a tiny little floating rock and we're all going to die soon. So on like a top level, you have that kind of social conformity, but then also when you get closer and you look at social costs more, more intimately, we all just want to feel like we belong to something and we're accepted. And I just think at the end of the day, I would rather take five years off my life than spend more time being 12 again.
- [48:50]
Anna Konkle
I wasn't expecting that landing. That's fascinating.
- [48:53]
Reese Oliver
Every day either feels like the best day of your life or the literal end of the world. So keeping those two ways of looking at conformity in my. What do you think the social costs are then, of not conforming? And what do you think they were then and what do you think they are now?
- [49:11]
Anna Konkle
I mean, my mind goes first to how much disdain I have for social media and the Internet in general, and yet how. Especially right now, but in general, like, I use it and I'm on it and it's a part of my life and thinking about my parents in Y2K, because I'm thinking about tween experiences, because that's me. But like, how they operated in their work life, life. The Internet wasn't that much a part of it. You know, they were like getting paper memos and signing things and you had to send it through a carrier and all of these aspects. So I'm going there to just say that it feels almost impossible to be a functioning member of society without using the Internet. And people are not using social media. But, like, even those people not using social media have like, burner accounts and are like, connecting with people through their burner accounts. You know what I mean? So it just feels. Feels sad that I think we all know that in general it's not fantastic for mental health. It probably doesn't feel that good when you've been on a screen all day, and yet it doesn't feel like there's a lot of options. Is that too sad?
- [50:16]
Reese Oliver
No, that's too real.
- [50:18]
It's realistic. Yeah, yeah.
- [50:20]
There's like a Neo Luddite movement among the Gen Zers that's really making me happy right now. Like there's things like whimsy maxing and going analog and like, like some people are like building their own tiny little computers. They're like making computers. Like I turned this Polly Pocket Princess compact into a little computer and that's what I'm using instead of a phone now. There's like a branch of the Internet where stuff like that is happening. There's a branch where people are the dumb phone, the brick phone, all of that. I think we're reaching a point where I think it's going to flip the other way. Analog stuff, it's coming back, it's trendy.
- [50:50]
Amanda Montell
Obviously there's so much political polarization right now, but I think we're going to see techno polarization where you're going to have like the Neo Luddites versus like people who have outsourced their whole life to every LLM. You know, you've got the AI doomers versus the AI utopian minded people they call themselves. Yeah, whatever. I think that's going to be the polarization that we end up seeing. And I don't know, we'll be here on Sounds like a cult covering it all.
- [51:13]
Reese Oliver
We'll be in our commune somewhere far, far away.
- [51:16]
Anna Konkle
Do you think like in a meaningful way? Because my mind goes to and I'm like, and I just actually said to my partner the other day, which I'm sure isn't that big of a revelation, but being like, yeah, in 50 years we're going to have towns and businesses that are operating like rejecting screens and where there's no Internet. Like it does feel maybe 50s too close. But do you think that in a meaningful way it could be because it's one thing to integrate it with like how you live your everyday, which bowing down to people that are working more in analog ways. But if you're employed in a bigger company or whatever, like where are your options and are there companies, companies even able to operate that way competitively? It seems like no, probably not.
- [51:58]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, it's like my friend Jenna, we're all coming up into the workplace and she works in a STEM related field and she is finding that she is encouraged to use AI by the workplace and her deadlines are reflective of that. So she's saying like, I don't want to use AI to get this thing done, but they're expecting me to do an amount of work and an amount of time that is physically impossible for a human. Human being to do. And I think instances like that are going to become the norm.
- [52:22]
Amanda Montell
And, like, we'll probably see more neoladdite cults starting, you know, like compounds in the woods. Sign us up. Dance around the maple Girls trip. Okay, now's the time in the episode where we're gonna set up a little game to close us out. This is just a classic game of Would you rather cult of wall y2k edition? Anna, would you rather go back to using a flip phone for an entire year or have to live with the Amish for a month?
- [52:54]
Anna Konkle
Ooh, both. I like. I think a flip phone.
- [52:57]
Reese Oliver
Maybe that's a good answer.
- [52:59]
Iman Haririkia
Next, would you rather find out people are talking behind your back on Ask
- [53:04]
Reese Oliver
FM or a Reddit thread?
- [53:07]
Anna Konkle
What is Ask fm?
- [53:08]
Iman Haririkia
It's like Formspring. It was when people could anonymously submit
- [53:13]
Reese Oliver
a questions and you had to anonymously answer them. So, like, if I had an Ask fm, anyone could ask me a question about anyone or anything and I had to answer and they were all anonymously posted on like a scroll.
- [53:28]
Anna Konkle
Oh my God, I miss that.
- [53:29]
Reese Oliver
It's like the questions feature on Instagram, but way cooler.
- [53:32]
Also known as Formspring.
- [53:33]
Anna Konkle
Okay, I think Reddit Formspring sounds really scary for some reason.
- [53:38]
Reese Oliver
Formspring was more personal. Reddit. At least you don't know the people.
- [53:42]
Amanda Montell
No, Formspring is like confronting you to your face anonymously. Reddit is talking about you behind your back.
- [53:48]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, keep it behind my back. I can't handle it in my face.
- [53:51]
Reese Oliver
I don't want to know. Keep it in the designated community. You have to talk shit about me, I guess.
- [53:55]
Amanda Montell
I would never talk shit about you to your face, Anna.
- [53:57]
Iman Haririkia
Ever.
- [53:58]
Anna Konkle
Okay, thank you.
- [53:59]
Reese Oliver
Only on a Reddit thread, of course.
- [54:02]
Anna Konkle
Boundaries.
- [54:03]
Reese Oliver
Would you rather be stuck in a doomsday bunker with established members of the Mormon Church of the Latter Day Saints or. Or college aged Y2K conspiracy theorists?
- [54:12]
Anna Konkle
Oh, Y2K college aged conspiracy theorists. That sounds fun.
- [54:16]
Amanda Montell
Like Mormons can't even drink.
- [54:18]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, that feels complicated.
- [54:21]
Reese Oliver
You guys are just refreshing the countdown to the end of the world over and over again.
- [54:26]
Yeah, they're like asking you about your family history. They're like taking genealogical notes and everyone.
- [54:31]
Anna Konkle
It also was the thing of being like, let's get crazy tonight. It could be our last night. Like, I do feel like we had a weird sleepover where we. They just basically drank too much Soda and were like, we're crazy.
- [54:43]
Amanda Montell
Absolutely. Okay. Would you rather have to replace all your pants with low rise jeans forever or have to dress in the Heaven's Gate uniform every Saturday? No matter the occasion, you would have to wear the outfit that they wore when they died, which was like all black Nike decades and they were covered in a purple shroud.
- [55:03]
Anna Konkle
Okay, well, not that. Not that. I guess low rise rise.
- [55:09]
Reese Oliver
It's tough because then you'll also be 90 years old wearing your low rise
- [55:13]
Amanda Montell
bedazzled lucky jeans every Saturday.
- [55:18]
Reese Oliver
It's a tough one.
- [55:18]
Anna Konkle
It's just every Saturday. It's not every day.
- [55:21]
Ad Voice
Every Saturday.
- [55:22]
Anna Konkle
Every Saturday. Every Saturday. And I have to wear a bald cap too, or.
- [55:25]
Reese Oliver
No, I'm wearing the jeans.
- [55:27]
Anna Konkle
Okay, you're wearing the jeans every day. I might take the Saturday.
- [55:32]
Reese Oliver
And a last one. Would you rather live in an exact replica of a Swedish prison cell or replace every single piece of furniture you own with the inflatable version, including your bed?
- [55:44]
Anna Konkle
Inflatable, of course. Is that hard for anybody else?
- [55:48]
Reese Oliver
I feel like that'd be really hard on my back.
- [55:50]
Anna Konkle
But is a Swedish prison. They're having better. It's a lot better. It's like a Marriott room. Yeah, it is nice. Look at that.
- [56:00]
Reese Oliver
It's a prison, but it's kind of like an IKEA prison.
- [56:03]
It's a Zara Larson prison. Make it Y2K.
- [56:06]
Anna Konkle
I mean, I know I'm getting too deep here, but like, we're gonna need like a whole kit at all times. Or is. Or unless it's like really good quality plastic for the inflatables. What kind of quality are we talking? Is my point.
- [56:19]
Amanda Montell
Like a patch kit.
- [56:20]
Anna Konkle
Thank you. A patch kit.
- [56:22]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, a whole kit.
- [56:25]
Reese Oliver
We can allow it to be. As I said, I feel like sturdy. As sturdy as Find a plastic if you want.
- [56:30]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, I'm into that. Although microplastics, but it's okay.
- [56:34]
Reese Oliver
Just give me the macro ones. Skip the middleman.
- [56:37]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, this is a macro plastic life.
- [56:40]
Reese Oliver
Alrighty. Thank you so much for joining us on today's whimsical fun episode. If our listeners want to follow you and your cult, where can they do that?
- [56:50]
Anna Konkle
Well, of course on Instagram. I'm not sure what the handle is exactly, but it's there and you can find it.
- [56:56]
Amanda Montell
I think it's Annarian Congo Conkel.
- [56:58]
Anna Konkle
That sounds right. I don't think it's Conk. I think it's Anna Ryan Conkle. Thank you, Amanda.
- [57:02]
Amanda Montell
I'm a true follower.
- [57:03]
Anna Konkle
I mean, and vice versa. Like we met so Long ago. It's you. Were you. You liked PEN before. Really? Anybody did, I would say, well, the
- [57:12]
Amanda Montell
story is that I was working as a beauty editor when I met Anna. That was my day job. And I was supposed to interview Kim Kardashian that morning about some sunglasses collection collab. And I told them, you guys, I have a hard out at 11 because I have a more important interview. And it was you. And my God, I felt like I was in a cult at that fashion magazine. I was such a theater kid dweeb, surrounded by, like, Devil Wears Prada hotties. And I was like, oh, my God, the pen. 15 gals are gonna be here. I'm gonna be, like, with my people. And I was, like, just about to come out with my first book, and I have never done this before or since, but I, like, brought you two galleys of my book because I was like. It was in my mind. I was like, you made something that means so much to me. I need to, like, give you an offering. Oh, that's so culty. It was so culty. I would have followed you into the woods. We took, like, a Polaroid together. It's on my fridge to this day. And I remember Casey and I. My husband, Casey and I had only just started dating, but he and I met in middle school, and we watched Pen15 together. And so it was, like, very meaningful. And now we're married.
- [58:25]
Reese Oliver
That's crazy.
- [58:26]
Anna Konkle
Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. That day really does stick out, because all of the press and doing that for the first time, it does feel like high school. It does feel like popularity contests constantly. Like, Hollywood in general can feel like that. And it was a very human great experience. And talking to you and meeting you really, like, it felt different. Different. So thank you. Stop for a hundred percent.
- [58:50]
Amanda Montell
I just loved you so much. And do and, like, root for, like. I just.
- [58:55]
Anna Konkle
I love and vice versa exists anyway.
- [59:00]
Amanda Montell
But I'm very cool and chill and normal and wife.
- [59:03]
Anna Konkle
Me too. Me too.
- [59:04]
Amanda Montell
Amazing. Well, that's our. That's our interview.
- [59:07]
Anna Konkle
Thank you for having me.
- [59:16]
Amanda Montell
Okay, y', all, now's the time for our verdict. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the outman. Which do you think the cult of Y2K falls into?
- [59:31]
Reese Oliver
I was gonna say I'm watching my back, but honestly, I feel like the version of it that I'm participating in is like the Zara Larson kind of conversion, which I think could still be watch your back because, you know, think about the implications of the way you're dressing. But ultimately I think I'm gonna go live your life.
- [59:46]
Amanda Montell
What do you think, Iman?
- [59:47]
Iman Haririkia
I think I'm going watch your back because I think the Y2K aesthetic is definitely live your life, but there's like
- [59:54]
Reese Oliver
a dark underbelly of all those bedazzled low rise jeans. And I think that any trend that also rides on the coattails of general paranoia and anxiety around the future is watch your back because of all of the, you know, follow up conspiracies. It's inspired. So I'm gonna go watch your back.
- [60:19]
Iman Haririkia
Yeah.
- [60:19]
Amanda Montell
You know, this really kind of seems like a cult that shows up very differently for men versus women. You know, men are like the conspiracy theory side and women are kind of the more aesthetic side.
- [60:32]
Reese Oliver
I mean, that's kind of how a
- [60:33]
Amanda Montell
lot of cults work, honestly. Yeah. And on both sides. Sides, it's probably low key, a watcher back. I mean, of course it's possible to dip a toe into the aesthetics of Y2K, literally. I'm going to a bachelorette party next weekend that is like Zara Larson, Lisa Frank Y2K themed and I'm so fudgeing excited and stocked up on outfits and can't wait to live my life. But I think for young people succumbing to the more extreme versions of the body body standards that were originally set in the Y2K era, that can get pretty scary. And the techno conspiratorialism stuff is scary too. So even though Y2K itself is like such a decentralized cult, like there really is no leader, the vibes feel slightly watch your back to me. So fair, but I'm not willing to die on that hill. If listeners have respectful dissent to our verdict, please share it on our Instagram ounslikeacult Pod. Well, that's our show.
- [61:36]
Reese Oliver
Thank you so much for listening.
- [61:38]
Iman Haririkia
Stick around for a new cult next
- [61:40]
Amanda Montell
week, but in the meantime, stay culty,
- [61:43]
Iman Haririkia
but not too culty.
- [61:52]
Amanda Montell
Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel, Reese Oliver, and Aman Harirakiah. Our managing producer is Katy Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole.
- [62:06]
If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it
- [62:09]
5 stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
- [62:12]
It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish
- [62:17]
the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes. On Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language.
- [62:28]
Thanks as well to our network studio
- [62:30]
71 and be sure to follow the
- [62:32]
Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Soundslikeacultpod or support us on Patreon to
- [62:38]
listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult.
- [62:48]
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Reese Oliver
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Anna Konkle
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Amanda Montell
Oh, sorry.
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