Beijing Summit / Trump and Xi as allies, rivals and frenemies

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sources & Methods – “Beijing Summit / Trump and Xi as allies, rivals and frenemies”

Host: Mary Louise Kelly (NPR)
Guests: Franco Ordonez (NPR White House Correspondent), Jennifer Pack (NPR China Correspondent)
Date: May 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on President Trump's highly anticipated state visit to China—his first since 2017—and the evolving diplomatic, economic, and strategic dynamics between the U.S. and China. Mary Louise Kelly is joined by correspondents Franco Ordonez and Jennifer Pack for a detailed analysis of the Xi–Trump summit’s implications, its backdrop (including the ongoing Iran conflict), and the complex mix of rivalry and cooperation that defines the current U.S.–China relationship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Summit Readouts and Contrasting Narratives

• Chinese narrative: The official focus is “stability, stability, stability,” whether in trade, regional conflicts (like Iran), or sensitive issues such as Taiwan.
• U.S. narrative: The U.S. prioritized a list of pressing issues: stopping fentanyl precursors from entering the U.S., opening Chinese markets to American businesses, and achieving Iranian non-proliferation and stability in the Strait of Hormuz.
• Quote:
  • “From the Chinese readout, it’s really honed in on one key theme, which is stability, stability, stability ... On the US Side, the readout was more of a list of issues that President Trump has been concerned with.” — Jennifer Pack [01:57]
• Tension highlighted: The difference in focus reflects a subtle friction and the continuing gap in each side’s objectives.

2. Taiwan – The Untouchable Subject

• The Chinese side reiterated that mishandling Taiwan could destabilize the U.S.–China relationship.
• U.S. position: Notably, the official U.S. summit readout omitted any mention of Taiwan, and Trump dodged questions on the topic.
• Quote:
  • “It’s definitely one of the most touchy subjects ... Trump was asked twice and ignored the calls. I think that speaks to the sensitivity. This is a very dangerous area for the president.” — Franco Ordonez [03:51]

3. The Iran War’s Shadow Over Beijing

• The U.S. wants China to use its leverage to help reopen the Strait of Hormuz; China maintains neutrality, blaming the conflict on U.S. and Israeli actions.
• China’s approach: Consistent calls for negotiation and mediation, but no concrete movement beyond diplomatic statements.
• Quote:
  • “They [China] wanted the war to stop, … both all sides have to go to the negotiations table, and that it will play a role in mediation. … Maybe China doesn’t have as much leverage as everyone thinks over Iran.” — Jennifer Pack [06:30]

4. The U.S. CEO Delegation and Economic Signals

• Leading U.S. business executives (from Tesla, Goldman Sachs, Nvidia, and others) traveled with Trump—underscoring a renewed push for economic engagement with China.
• Trump’s ‘deal-making’ image: The visit is choreographed to showcase business cooperation, though skepticism remains about real market openings given China’s regulatory complexities.
• Quote:
  • “He wants to open up China to US Markets. And this is a way of kind of sending a message ... who are going to help open up these markets and create business.” — Franco Ordonez [07:57]

5. Atmosphere in Beijing & Limits on Press Access

• The summit had limited visibility in everyday Beijing, with only select locations closed to the public and muted state media coverage.
• Security and tech: Exceptional security and digital precautions—White House staff traveled with minimal electronics amid cybersecurity concerns.
• Quote:
  • “You definitely can’t go anywhere near the venues ... Yesterday I took a bike ride past the Great Hall of the People ... we were redirected ... move all these bicycles out.” — Jennifer Pack [10:39]
  • “... much of the staff of the White House staff who is traveling with the president ... are using different type of electronics to communicate.” — Franco Ordonez [12:20]

6. Comparing 2017 and 2026: Shifts in Tone and Substance

• 2017: Optimism, “great chemistry” (Trump–Xi) and lavish hospitality.
• 2018–2020s: Escalating trade war, massive tariffs, later ruled illegal by the U.S. Supreme Court.
• 2026: Return to conciliatory language, focus on ‘love’ and ‘cooperation,’ with Trump inviting Xi for a reciprocal visit.
• Quote:
  • “We love our families and we love our countries. Together ... create a future of greater prosperity, cooperation and happiness and peace for our children. We love our children.” — Donald Trump [15:08]

7. Stability, Buying Time, and Skepticism about Lasting Peace

• China’s short-term goal: Buy time and avoid escalations as it grapples with economic woes and internal pressures.
• Expert perspective: “They’re really looking to buy time and space and relief from US Pressure so they can fortify themselves for the next round of contestation with the United States.” — Quoted by Jennifer Pack [18:48]
• Longer-term Chinese concerns about the U.S. seeking to contain its rise, regardless of summit pleasantries.

8. Measuring Success – Low Bars and Transactional Realities

• Both sides set low expectations: simply holding talks is seen as a positive.
• For China: success means avoiding confrontation or public embarrassment, perhaps securing a pause or reduction in U.S. arms sales to Taiwan.
• For the U.S.: success is a positive narrative and showcasing Trump’s deal-making persona—while actual breakthroughs, especially on Iran or Taiwan, remain unlikely.
• Quote:
  • “I think this is already a success because the bar was super low to begin with. ... the fact that these two leaders could even meet was meant to symbolize that these two countries can work together.” — Jennifer Pack [19:25]
  • “... it’s about money. Investment is money, import is money, open business money. But don’t touch upon our system, don't touch upon Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xinjiang and Tibet.” — Mary Louise Kelly summarizing [20:30]

9. Iran War Update:

• Situation remains volatile: Strait of Hormuz partly blocked, U.S. claims to control are overstated, with traffic only moving for certain (often Chinese-backed) vessels; Iran increasing missile activity.
• Diplomacy stalled: Ongoing standstill; no substantial breakthroughs in talks over Iran’s nuclear program or an exit strategy for the U.S.
• Quote:
  • “This is a very uncertain conflict with really no clear out or exit ramp for the president and the United States.” — Franco Ordonez [24:07]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On managing rivalry:
  “I do think President Trump is trying to manage this rivalry instead of escalating it ... more about using economic leverage ... trying to have a more positive relationship with Xi, a respectful relationship as opposed to more of a competitive one.” — Franco Ordonez [15:52]

• Chinese Ministry’s poetic vision:
  “The earth is too small for China and the US to turn against and confront each other. And the Pacific Ocean is vast enough for both to prosper in their own ways.” — Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson [17:12]

• A transactional joke from Chinese analysts:
  “If it’s about money, then anything can be resolved.” — Jennifer Pack relaying Chinese perspective [19:25]

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Highlights from the OSINT (“Open Source Intelligence”) Segment

[25:40]

Franco Ordonez:

• China’s quiet expansion of influence in Cuba via solar panel farms—as U.S. embargoes drive Cuba closer to Beijing for creative energy solutions.
• “… these influence is showing how China is actually gaining more of a foothold close to the United States.”

Jennifer Pack:

• Details from past state banquets: tradition of mixing Western and Chinese cuisine, but omitting China’s fiery baijiu liquor in favor of wine (made famous by Nixon’s 1972 trip).
• “… in 1984 … hard liquor should not be served at state banquets … maybe that is the reason why wine is probably served at this, but we can’t confirm … Trump does not drink.”

Mary Louise Kelly:

• Ukraine, long a global recipient of military aid, now offering to supply drones and missiles to Germany, while also deepening cooperation with U.S. defense officials.
• “Ukraine supplying Germany with drones and missiles … America is now diverting everything to the war in Iran … a potential deal to test Ukrainian drone technology in the US.”

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Segment Timestamps

• Summit narratives & takeaways: [01:57]
• Taiwan discussion & evasiveness: [03:07–04:40]
• Iran war’s impact on the summit: [05:11–07:08]
• U.S. CEO delegation: [07:32–08:29]
• Atmosphere in Beijing & press access: [09:30–11:16]
• Security, digital precautions: [11:31–12:52]
• Historic context, 2017 vs. now: [14:16–15:52]
• Stability and Chinese long-term goals: [17:33–18:48]
• Measuring summit success: [19:25–20:52]
• Iran conflict status: [22:55–24:07]
• OSINT segment: [25:40–30:16]

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Takeaways

• U.S.–China relations remain fraught but, for now, non-confrontational: Both parties are posturing for stability, with neither expecting major breakthroughs.
• The summit was more symbolic than productive: Both sides achieved their minimum goals (dialogue, optics, no new crises).
• Key issues unresolved: The underlying tensions over Taiwan, Iran, and economic dominance are not addressed in any substantive way.
• Global ripple effects: U.S.–China relations intersect with the Iran conflict, European security (via Ukraine), and emergent economic battlegrounds (Cuba/solar, technology, etc.).

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Podcast’s parting note: Even as the world order shifts and superpowers jockey, the act of talking—even for optics—remains preferable to silence or conflict. The NPR team will keep tracking whether these “friendlier” gestures mark a pivot or simply a pause in rivalry.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Why does AI now appear alongside nuclear war as one of humanity's biggest risks?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I think it's the scale of it that makes it sound absurd.

[Narrator]

Episode two of Are We Doomed? Explores simple steps to get there. And we might all need to hear this.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

If it's going to happen, it might happen very soon.

[Narrator]

Are We Doomed? Understand our biggest problems and what we can do. Part of the NPR network. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Franco Ordonez]

President Trump is trying to kind of manage this rivalry instead of escalating it. This administration is certainly very focused on trying to have a more positive relationship with Xi, you know, a respectful relationship as opposed to more of a competitive one.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

President Trump visits China for the first time since 2017. What's changed and what does each man want from this meeting? This is Sources and Methods from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Every Thursday, I dive deep into the week's biggest national security stories with the NPR reporters covering them today. Here in the studio with me, NPR White House correspondent Franco Ordonez. Franco, welcome back.

[Franco Ordonez]

Hi there. Hi.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And welcome back to NPR's Jennifer Pack, who is in Beijing tracking all the action as our China correspondent. Jennifer, welcome back.

[Jennifer Pack]

Thanks for having me.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Let's timestamp. It is Thursday. It is about 20 past noon here in D.C. which means it's about 20 past midnight for you, Jennifer. So first of all, thank you so much for staying up late.

[Jennifer Pack]

No problem. I'm in the future.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

You are. You are happy tomorrow. Happy Friday to you. I know it's been a crazy long day for you there and everybody, all the reporters trying to cover the Xi Trump summit. So, Jennifer, give us the 30 second readout. Big headlines, big takeaways. Catch us up. Okay.

[Jennifer Pack]

So from the Chinese readout, it's really honed in on one key theme, which is stability, stability, stability. And that could mean anything for stability in trade, you know, with all the tariffs, it could be stability in geopolitical conflicts, AKA Iran, it could be stability within its neighborhood, Taiwan, which is a self governing island that Beijing claims as its own. On the US Side, the readout was more of a list of issues that President Trump has been concerned with. So, so attacking fentanyl precursors from entering the US Asking the Chinese to open up to American businesses and more importantly, Iran, you know, keeping the Strait of Hormuz open. And also it said that both China and the US Agrees Iran should not have a nuclear weapon.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Interesting. It sounds like there's some daylight between the readouts of this first day of talks between what the US Side and the Chinese side are saying, I want to focus this on the issue of Taiwan. And what each side is saying on Jennifer, it sounds like the Chinese readout is that if the issue of Taiwan is not handled well, it could put the whole US China relationship in jeopardy.

[Jennifer Pack]

Yes, absolutely. Because this is what Beijing considers a red line. And in the US Readout, there was no mention of Taiwan.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Right. Trump was asked about Taiwan. Let me play how that exchange went. How are your talks, sir?

[Donald Trump]

Great. Great place. Incredible. China is beautiful.

[Franco Ordonez]

Did you talk about Taiwan, Mr. President?

[Jennifer Pack]

Thank you.

[Donald Trump]

Thank you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Thank you very much, Mr. President. Did you talk about Taiwan, Franco? Not a lot to see there from

[Franco Ordonez]

President Trump on read between the lines for us. It's definitely one of the most touchy subjects for the United States. Very interesting to me that Trump was asked twice and ignored the calls. I talked to our colleague Tamara Keith, who has been with the pool covering Trump and is in Beijing as well. And Trump was definitely in earshot of these questions from the Poolers, and he chose to ignore it. And I think that speaks to the sensitivity. This is a very dangerous area for the president. And I will say the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio actually was also asked about this today after that meeting, and he says at least that nothing has changed, that they're sticking with the strategic ambiguity message, that it's one China, but that Taiwan still has some ability to defend itself and that China should not be invading Taiwan.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Right. This has long been the US Official position on Taiwan, that the US Acknowledges China's claim to Taiwan but does not recognize or agree with it. Another thread to pull on here. Iran. And we're going to talk about the Iran war in greater detail in a few minutes. But I do want to note just the dynamics here. China is an ally of Iran. The US Is at war with Iran. Jennifer, how big a shadow has the Iran war cast so far on this summit in Beijing?

[Jennifer Pack]

I would say it's a big issue for President Trump. It sounded like President Xi did not directly refer to it, but we have been seeing statements from the Chinese Foreign Ministry all along, including from the foreign minister, that they. They're on the same page. But what the US has been pressuring China to do is to use its leverage on Iran to get the Strait of Hormuz to reopen. China so far has not really done much beyond strong messages, strong statements, because it doesn't agree with the placement of blame. Let's say how the US Frames it. China says the US And Israel started this war. So Iran then retaliated and closed the Strait of Hormuz, a critical waterway. And so they don't like it because they obviously have business invested interest in that area. But at the same time, politically, they find it kind of hard to not condemn the US And Israel on this.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So just to be clear, Jennifer, in terms of deliverables so far from the summit in China, the U.S. as you said, wants the Strait of Hormuz open. They would like China to help with that. Have they gotten anywhere on that? Has China made any promises or even on the margins suggested that they will help?

[Jennifer Pack]

China has not moved away from its statements since day one, which is that they wanted the war to stop, that they don't agree with the fighting, that both all sides have to go to the negotiations table, and that it will play a role in mediation. And on that front, the US had actually credited China for getting Iran to the negotiation table for the ceasefire. China did not really claim it, let's say. And so there's a lot of different interpretation on how to take it. There's one reading which is that maybe China doesn't have as much leverage as everyone thinks over Iran.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Interesting.

[Jennifer Pack]

And the other side is maybe China is not interested in getting itself involved in the Middle East. It knows that it's really complicated. And so its stated line has always been go through mediation. It's very happy to play part of the role in the mediation game, but it doesn't want to be front and center.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, so we again, we'll drill down in a few minutes on state of the ceasefire. And Franco, you can get us up to speed, but I want to stay with a summit in Beijing. And another aspect of it that's been very visible on the US side, Franco, and that is there are all these CEOs on the plane actually on Air Force One. These are guys who have their own plane, but they flew in with President Trump and his entourage on Air Force One. Who's there and what are they doing?

[Franco Ordonez]

Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the key goals that President Trump wants. He wants to make deals. I mean, that's what he's known for. That's his M.O. and these business leaders are part of that. He wants to open up China to US Markets. And this is a way of kind of sending a message that here are all these business leaders, these high powerful people, the most powerful business leaders in many ways, who are going to help open up these markets and create business

[Mary Louise Kelly]

for the head of Tesla, the head of Goldman Sachs, the head of Nvidia, they're all part of this gang it's

[Franco Ordonez]

not dissimilar to what the President did when he traveled to the Middle east last year when he went to Saudi Arabia and Qatar, bringing all these US Executives to kind of send this message that the US Is open for business. The president said as much today when speaking to Xi in the bilateral meeting. But I will say it is different than the meeting in the Middle East. I mean, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, are very open, are very interested in working with the United States of having these kind of deals. As you know, as our listeners know, dealing with China, it's a much more complicated thing to have US Businesses trying to interact with Chinese businesses. So a lot more challenges when dealing with the Beijing government.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Quick one to both of you just to open up your reporter's notebook a little bit. Jennifer, you start. Beijing, huge city. Has it felt any different this week? If you weren't a reporter covering this summit, would you even know the President of the United States is in town?

[Jennifer Pack]

Well, it's a massive city, so it's possible, definitely. So if you were not paying attention to state media, which is entirely possible, you might not know because they were running it all live. If you were not in the areas that were closed down, for example, the Temple of Heaven where President Trump was taking a stroll with President Xi, that area was closed off to tourists. So you might know it. Then I will say, having covered President Trump's first term until now, the Chinese side, especially the state media, have downplayed a lot of things when it came to reporting. They don't report everything and they don't go into microscopic detail about what is happening in the tit for tat. They didn't report the tit, but they reported the tat. So they said, okay, yes, China hit back. And then they'll mention one line. They said, oh, it's in response to US Tariffs and that's it. And part of that is strategic because Chinese leaders don't really want to invite public opinion about this while they're trying to handle things.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

How much access do you get? You're locally based. You're a foreign correspondent from a big Western news organization.

[Jennifer Pack]

Well, you definitely can't go anywhere near the venues, especially if President Trump is coming along. They have a huge coordinate off areas that, you know is something is happening. Yesterday I took a bike ride past the Great hall of the People with our Steve Inskeep. And, and then we were redirected in this area. We saw these guys that were collecting the shared bikes. We asked them, he said, oh, you know, do you know who's visiting tomorrow. And he's like, yes, of course. He's like, you guys are American. Oh, yeah, your president's coming. I said, oh, you know. And he said, yeah, yeah, of course, because we've been told we have to move all these bicycles out.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Franco, there's a terrific amount of security involved in moving a US President anywhere. If he wants to cross Pennsylvania Avenue here in Washington, there's a terrific amount of security involved. Any special things you're noticing with this trip on the security front?

[Franco Ordonez]

I mean, absolutely. I mean, especially when you're going into a country like China where the security is already extremely high. I mean, I find it very interesting in terms of kind of the security precautions they're when dealing with a communist government. Like what? Well, for example, on Air Force One, I mean, you probably notice that Trump often is a very active social media user. He often will post on his own social media page through social.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

He's post on social media.

[Franco Ordonez]

Well, he's only done a couple posts since he's been on the plane and has not since then. Maybe just a few videos of events of the arrival of the ceremony, which he so much loves.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Do you think that's a cybersecurity caution or that he doesn't have anything to report yet?

[Franco Ordonez]

I mean, I think it's wanting to present a very positive image. Often he uses this medium to lash out at things, but this is a very important visit that he wants to keep positive. At the same time, I do think there are security concerns. I was talking with Tamara Keith about this, and it's not only him who's taking precautions, but much of the staff of the White House staff who is traveling with the president and has actually left much of their electronics either on the plane or behind and are using different type of electronics to communicate.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Time for a break. Before we do that, quick plug for our episode. Earlier this week we spoke with Elliot Ackerman and Admiral James Stavridis, both veterans. Ackerman served in the Marines, Stavridis in the Navy, and eventually as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. They are the authors of a new novel which is set in and titled 2084. It envisions fascinating changes to warfare and technology geopolitics. We're going to see more unmanned, more hypersonic movement.

[Franco Ordonez]

Lasers will be a big part of this.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

That's real. The only thing you can really bet on is change, change in innovation of weapons, change in the way the planet is going to look, and also change in geopolitical alliances. Some really interesting ideas about the Future of war from two guys who know war all too well. So make sure you check that episode out before it goes into our archives in a few weeks. Okay? Coming up, how President Trump's visit to China compares to his last one nine years ago. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr. We're back. Let's talk more about the relationship between Donald Trump and Xi Jinping, because the last time they met in China was late 2017. And the tone back then was it was hopeful about trade agreements.

[Donald Trump]

My feeling toward you is an incredibly warm one. As we said, there's great chemistry and I think we're going to do tremendous things for both China and for the United States.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So great chemistry. The next year, Trump launched the trade war with China, though, and imposed tariffs and other trade restrictions.

[Donald Trump]

The word that I want to use is reciprocal. When they charge 25% for a car to go in and we charge 2% for their car to come into the United States, that's not good.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, so that was 2018. Fast forward. TRUMP hiked tariffs again at the beginning of his second term, escalating to over 145% on Chinese goods. The Supreme Court later ruled the president's widespread tariffs illegal.

[Donald Trump]

But now the American and Chinese people share much in common. We value hard work. We value courage and achievement. We love our families and we love our countries. Together we have the chance to draw on these values to create a future of greater prosperity, cooperation and happiness and peace for our children. We love our children. This region and the world is a special world with the two of us united and together.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Franco, a lot of love and happiness and peace. In this latest statement from President Trump about China, he's invited President Xi come to the US Come pay a reciprocal visit to Washington. What gives with the shift in tone?

[Franco Ordonez]

Yeah, I really think Trump's trying to turn the page on some of this language and kind of the relationship from not only the first term but also from earlier in this administration, that trade war was brutal. I mean, it was very hard, not only for China, but also especially for the US it had a big impact. There are questions about what it actually did for U.S. consumers. Obviously, prices have not necessarily gone down. I do think President Trump is trying to manage this rivalry instead of escalating it. And I think you're seeing those changes going on. I think this manage rivalry is more about using economic leverage, of trying to make sure supply chains continue to stay intact. This administration is certainly very focused on taking kind of the US Interests here. And what are the US Interests and it's trying to manage those things. It's had a challenging impact in doing that over the last year. But I think they're zeroing in on trying to have a more positive relationship with Xi, a respectful relationship as opposed to more of a competitive one.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Meanwhile, Jennifer, I was fascinated by this video that I guess China's foreign Ministry put out this week promoting peaceful coexistence.

[Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson]

The earth is too small for China and the US to turn against and confront each other. And the Pacific Ocean is vast enough for both to prosper in their own ways. China and the US Must coexist peacefully on this planet for all time to come. A ready and open China is right here. It is now for the US to choose the right course.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay. Apparently we're going to peacefully coexist and have a lot of seagulls flying past in the background. Again, that is from China's foreign Ministry, Jennifer, when they say China is right here just for the US to choose the right course, what is the right course from China's point of view for

[Jennifer Pack]

this relationship in the short term, it is to not rock it. So we're going to go back to the theme of stability on China's side. China just wants stability because internally there's a lot going on. So the economy is sluggish, unemployment is high, and then you have Trump's tariffs. Add on the Iran war. That's disrupting all of the supply chains. It's not helping its exporters. That's problematic because exports are what's driving the Chinese economy at this point. So it just wants things to calm down. But longer term, China has always believed that the US Is out to suppress and contain its rise. And I spoke to an analyst Johnson with the Brookings Institution and former China analyst at the CIA, and he says that's actually not changed at all. And he says, you know, for this summit and for any future engagement with the US Right now, he thinks China just wants to buy time, is they're

[Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson]

really looking to buy time and space and relief from US Pressure so they can fortify themselves for the next round of contestation with the United States.

[Jennifer Pack]

Yeah, they think all of this tone, niceties, it might go away fairly soon or at least eventually that they're going to go back to being strategic competitors.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So let me bring this summit portion of our conversation toward a close by asking you each to answer what would count as a successful summit when this wraps on Friday. Jennifer, you first. For China, what would count as this went well?

[Jennifer Pack]

Oh, I think this is already a success because the bar was super low to begin with. And so the fact that these two leaders could even meet was meant to symbolize that these two countries can work together. I asked, for example, a Chinese professor what he thought China's view of Trump was, because the last visit in 2017, they put on what they called a state visit plus show for him, and they shut down Forbidden City. They did all this stuff thinking we're going to shower him with all this stuff. And what happened? He went back and he slapped tariffs on Chinese exports and started all of this. So I said, do they think that any deals with Trump is reliable? So this is Shen Dingli. He's a Shanghai based international relations professor. And he said China does know that Trump is unpredictable. Having said that, they think he is transactional. He's not focused on ideology. And so he mentioned that there's this joke in Chinese, if it's about money, then anything can be resolved.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

China can make a good deal with the US if it's money. Investment is money, import is money, open business money. But don't touch upon our system, don't touch upon Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xinjiang and Tibet. Franco, this sounds like language President Trump can work with. It's about money. They want a deal.

[Franco Ordonez]

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, I kind of see this question about success on two levels. Short term, I think you can say this has been a successful trip for the president. You know, he so much is about, you know, he got to present the deal making side of him. He got the show, he got the Marine band, he got the cannons. He's always been an expert at, you know, using visuals to kind of send a message. And I think he got that in the two superpowers, you know, discussing and talking about the important issues of the day. But I think there are longer term impacts. So we're really going to see whether this is a success. One again is on Taiwan and whether the United States changes its language or if President Trump changes its language in terms of that strategic ambiguity, if it changes, if it kind of pulls back on some of its promises to help Taiwan and kind of lean more to China's view And then again on Iran, does the US Get China and Beijing to put more of its influence on Tehran, to maybe reopen, reopen the Strait of Hormuz even more and kind of come back to the negotiating table? And then in exchange, does China want something from the US On Taiwan in order to do that? Will China expect the US Or Trump to kind of change a little bit of language toward Taiwan? And that could be very impactful.

[Jennifer Pack]

Can I just add that Chinese scholars also say that even if it's not language change, it could even just be the US Cutting its arms sales to Taiwan. That could also be a good signal.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

All right. Lots of big outstanding issues that we will continue to track in the days and months to come. But for now, we have leaders of two superpowers talking and deciding that talking is better than not talking. Let's take a short break then. Where things stand in Iran, its sources and methods from NPR

[Donald Trump]

Foreign.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

We're back with Jennifer Pack in Beijing and Franco Ordonez here with me in Washington. And I do want to focus us for a question or two on Iran and the war and the latest. So Franco, what's the latest snapshot of where things stand?

[Franco Ordonez]

Yeah, the war is still in an extremely volatile place. Focus continues to be on the Strait of Hormuz, which continues to be at least partially blocked. The US Even this week likes to say that it has control of the Strait Hormuz. But the reality is that traffic has been very dramatically reduced from the, you know, over 100 traveling a day to just a few. Iran is allowing some vessels through, often Chinese backed vessels. Interestingly, some more vessels are being reported to be traveling dark transit, which means they're turning off kind of like their automatic identification systems in order to get by. Meanwhile, the US Continues to say that its blockade of Iranian ports is going very well.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So how do we square that with another thing President Trump said this week, which is that the ceasefire is on life support.

[Franco Ordonez]

Yeah. The challenge with covering President Trump is that the message completely changes and goes back and forth. President Trump talks about the ceasefire being on life support. In addition, you're having different reports out of like the New York Times and elsewhere that Iran is, you know, increasing its missile capabilities or returning to missile capabilities. So this is a very uncertain conflict with really no clear out or exit ramp for the president and the United States. And how to get out of this

[Mary Louise Kelly]

just to jump in diplomacy. Any progress in terms of diplomatic talks or any kind of negotiated into anything. I mean, we have President Trump and Marco Rubio with focus on China at the moment.

[Franco Ordonez]

There's no new specific talks to report. I mean, one of the big challenges, despite Trump saying this, you know, Rubio even recently was saying that the two countries are still struggling to deal with what they are negotiating over. This question of nuclear talks and the nuclear enrichment is still a huge issue. Trump likes to say that they're going to dig the uranium out of the mountains. But every time we Hear from the Iranians, they're saying that's not on the table and we have every right to continue to enrich uranium.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So we're still in this very volatile status quo. If that's not a complete contradiction in terms with that, we will end with OSINT open source intelligence, the not so secret yet telling details that we stumble across in our reporting. And Franco, you may take the first bow. What you got?

[Franco Ordonez]

Yeah. One thing we didn't necessarily get at, but is related to this China visit, is China's kind of relationship with Cuba. Cuba, as we have reported in the past, is under tremendous pressure from the United States of economic pressure. Trump has threatened even military action. This economic and fuel restriction embargoed that the US has implemented more recently has caused widespread national blackouts. So it's turning to China for creative ways for energy in other ways. And one way they're doing that, which is, I'm watching very closely, is solar panel farms. Cuba is getting the solar panels from China. And what's interesting about that is one of the reasons that this administration said that it's kind of putting the pressure on Cuba is because of the access that adversaries have with Cuba and being so close to the United States that they cannot allow adversaries like China, like Russia, like Iran to have such close proximity to the United States. Yet these actions and these influence is showing how China is actually gaining more of a foothold close to the United States.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Fascinating. All right, so keep your eyes on the solar panels sprouting up in Cuba as we try to track US China rivalries in other arenas. Jennifer, how about you, your Osint?

[Jennifer Pack]

Okay. I was looking up Trump's Visit back in 2017, and I was looking at the menu before the state banquet just to see, and we had not gotten details about it. And now it's come out that it's a mix of Western Chinese dishes always showcasing Chinese cooking styles across the country. You know, Beijing roast duck, pan fried pork buns. But, you know, what's missing is China's famous baijiu, this fiery sorghum based liquor. It turns out that in 1984, the Ministry of Foreign affairs in China had implemented this mandate that hard liquor should not be served at state banquets. And the People's Daily said it might have been traced back to 1972 when President Nixon came for the tour to break the ice between the US And China. And, and he famously, I heard, had tried the baijiu, even though he was warned not to because it burns your throat on the way down and he knocked back a few. And apparently he made a comment jokingly that China is vast, but it lacks wine and fashionable women. So it's possible that that is the reason why wine is probably served at this, but we can't confirm this time it definitely was served. Wine was served in the 2017 states visit.

[Franco Ordonez]

Also, interestingly, President Trump does not drink.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

He doesn't drink, so he wasn't going to be partaking anyway. Maybe that's why I can't top that. But I will give you the latest chapter, latest installment in Ukraine's pivot from recipient of military tech to supplier. Two threads here. One, Rob Schmitz, our Berlin correspondent and occasional buddy here on sources and methods. He writes from Berlin that Ukraine has just offered to supply Germany with drones and missiles. So think about that, Ukraine supplying Germany with drones and missiles. This is according to the German newspaper Die Welt, which quotes Ukraine's ambassador to NATO saying, hey, maybe Ukraine can help make up for weapons that we were expecting America to deliver. But America is now diverting everything to the war in Iran. So there's that. Meanwhile, Franco, I have been tracking all kinds of chatter here in Washington about a potential deal to to test Ukrainian drone technology in the US like the Pentagon wants to test it. I reached out to Ukraine's embassy last night. They confirmed, as they put it, deepening cooperation over drones between Ukraine and the US and they sent a statement from the ambassador saying a draft framework document has been developed and is currently being reviewed. So we will watch and see how that unfolds and whether it bodes well for a maybe rosier relationship between the US And Ukraine than we have seen and in this second Trump administration. Time will tell.

[Franco Ordonez]

It's a fascinating time, considering how much Ukraine has relied on others for military support, that they're now being the ones who are supplying other countries to drive

[Mary Louise Kelly]

the development of that technology. All right, NPR White House correspondent Franco Ordonez and China correspondent Jennifer Pack, who gets the Hero Award for sources and methods for staying up way past your bedtime. So thanks you two.

[Franco Ordonez]

Thank you, thank you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And before we go this month, we're taking a moment to thank listeners who have rated or reviewed the show. Wherever you listen, listeners like Mike, who writes I look forward to these podcasts eagerly. Truly insightful and authoritative as the contributors are veteran journalists with major beats here and abroad. It is a pleasure to listen to genuine reporting and accurate analysis. Well, thank you, Mike. We appreciate your listening and we appreciate all the ratings and reviews. They go such a long way, way toward helping new listeners find us, which in turn helps keep our show going. So thanks again. That's it for today's episode. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. We're back next week with another episode of Sources and Methods from npr.