Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is in hot water – again

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Sources & Methods (NPR)
Episode: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is in hot water – again
Date: December 4, 2025
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guests: Tom Bowman (Pentagon Correspondent), Quill Lawrence (National Security and Veterans Reporter)

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Main Theme

This episode unpacks two major controversies engulfing U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. First, a bombshell Pentagon Inspector General report accuses Hegseth of bungling classified strike plans via the Signal app, potentially putting U.S. military lives at risk. Second, the episode revisits his involvement in a lethal U.S. boat strike in the Caribbean, where allegations of a war crime are intensifying. Through sharp questioning and in-depth reporting, the panel explores government oversight, legal ambiguities, and the buck-passing at the highest levels of defense leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pentagon IG Report: Hegseth's Use of Signal for Sensitive Info

• Background: The IG report, requested by Senators Roger Wicker and Jack Reed, investigated Hegseth’s sharing of classified Yemen strike details in a private Signal group just hours before the operation ([03:07]).

• Findings:

  • Hegseth shared operationally sensitive info (timing and targets of U.S. airstrikes) via a non-secure, non-government messaging app ([03:54]).
  • The recipient list allegedly, and mistakenly, included the Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic ([05:04]).
  • The IG concluded this could have endangered pilots and mission success, though a disaster was averted:
    “The Secretary sent information identifying the quantity and strike times of manned U.S. Aircraft ... over an unapproved, unsecure network, approximately two to four hours before the execution of those strikes ... If this information had fallen into the hands of U.S. adversaries ... Houthi forces might have been able to counter U.S. forces ... The Secretary’s actions created a risk to operational security ... potential harm to us.”
    — Quill Lawrence reading from report ([06:48])
  • Hegseth claimed his authority as SecDef allowed instant declassification by forwarding the information, but experts and the IG disputed that proper process wasn’t followed ([05:56], [06:12]).
  • Signal's auto-delete functionality was cited as destructive to evidence and against DoD policy ([09:56]).

• Quote:
  “If I had done this, I would at least lose my security clearance, maybe go to jail.” — Military officer via Tom Bowman ([07:43])

• Government Reaction:

  • The White House stood by Hegseth, echoing that “no classified information was leaked, and operational security was not compromised” and that President Trump "stands by Secretary Hegseth" ([10:16]).

2. Venezuela Boat Strikes & War Crimes Allegations

• Recent Strikes: U.S. has conducted around 22 strikes on boats in Caribbean anti-smuggling operations ([12:38]).

• September 2 Incident: The first day's strikes killed 2 survivors after an initial attack. Debate centers on whether these killings were lawful or a war crime:

  • President Trump denies prior knowledge of the second strike ([13:04]).
  • Hegseth claims he “wasn’t in the room” for the second strike and left after seeing the first ([13:13]).

• Law of War Implications:

  • “Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal.” (Law of War Manual, via Tom Bowman, [15:39])
  • Admiral Frank Bradley, who allegedly authorized the second strike, defended the decisions in closed-door Congressional briefings. Lawmakers described the killings of disabled survivors as "one of the most troubling things" they've seen ([13:42–14:11]).

• Congressional Oversight:

  • Bipartisan concern is rising, with calls to release all footage and details publicly ([14:22]).

• Buck Passing:

  • Both the President and Secretary of Defense point to Admiral Bradley as the ultimate decision-maker here, with Hegseth invoking the “fog of war” to explain his absence ([16:32]).
  • “This is not ‘the buck stops here.’ This is not ‘I am in charge and therefore I am responsible.’” — Quill Lawrence ([17:11])

3. Future for Hegseth & Congressional Response

• Democrats demand resignation, firing, or war crimes investigation.
• Some Republicans suggest, “he’s learned his lesson,” indicating partisan divides in response ([20:05]).
• Notable Trend:
  • Growing bipartisanship for deeper oversight; concerns over the legality and morality of actions taken.
  • Inter-American Commission on Human Rights: Families of victims now pursuing international justice ([21:08]).
  • Uncertainty over how many of the targeted boats actually carried drugs (so-called “dud rate”)—in previous Coast Guard interdictions, 1 in 5 boats had no drugs ([21:49]).

4. Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) Takeaways

• Military Officers Seek Legal Counsel:

  • Officers are now consulting lawyers about their legal liabilities if asked to participate in, or approve, orders they feel may be unlawful ([23:01]).

• Press Room Intrigue:

  • Laura Loomer—right-wing activist now credentialed at the Pentagon—sits at the center of a press corps culture shift, even claiming a departed Washington Post correspondent’s desk on social media ([24:43–26:27]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If I had done this, I would at least lose my security clearance, maybe go to jail.”
  — Tom Bowman, relaying military officers' reactions to Hegseth’s conduct ([07:43])

• “The Secretary sent information identifying the quantity and strike times of manned U.S. Aircraft ... over an unapproved, unsecure network ... If this information had fallen into the hands of U.S. adversaries ... potential harm to us.”
  — Quill Lawrence, quoting the IG report ([06:48])

• “This is not ‘the buck stops here.’ ... This is not ‘I am in charge and therefore I am responsible.’”
  — Quill Lawrence, on the lack of accountability ([17:11])

• "Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal."
  — Tom Bowman, citing the U.S. Law of War Manual ([15:39])

• “I want to go back to ... Is it normal for a Secretary of Defense to leave in the middle of a kinetic operation ...?”
  — Mary Louise Kelly, probing Hegseth’s absence during the pivotal second strike ([16:09])

• “He refused to turn over his personal phone to the IG.”
  — Quill Lawrence, on Hegseth’s lack of cooperation ([09:56])

• On OSINT & legal advice:
  “Lawyers are hearing from military officers this week ... seeking outside counsel to figure out what to do when they are asked to carry out what may be an illegal or unethical strike, or when they're asked to concur with an opinion ... these examples are literal textbooks, examples of war crimes, of what not to do.”
  — Quill Lawrence ([23:01])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:38] — Military backlash and severity of Hegseth’s information-sharing
• [03:07] — IG report origins, summary, and key findings
• [05:04]–[06:48] — Details on the leak, legal ambiguities, quoted IG findings
• [07:43] — Community outrage and perspective from serving military personnel
• [08:28]–[10:16] — Hegseth’s non-cooperation; White House response
• [12:38] — Number of U.S. boat strikes in the Caribbean
• [13:04]–[14:11] — September 2 incident: killings, Congressional reaction, law of war
• [15:39] — Legality according to U.S. doctrine
• [16:09]–[17:53] — Chain of command, accountability, and leadership norms
• [20:05] — What’s next for Hegseth? Congressional and party reactions
• [21:08]–[21:49] — Human rights complaint; ‘dud rate’ on boat strikes
• [23:01] — OSINT: increasing legal anxiety in the ranks
• [24:43]–[27:32] — Pentagon pressroom intrigue: desk drama, Laura Loomer’s presence

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Tone and Style

The dialogue is sharp, occasionally incredulous, with an undercurrent of seriousness about both the operational and ethical stakes. Hosts and correspondents probe deeply, sometimes wryly, into official justifications and evasions.

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Conclusion

This week's Sources & Methods delivers a thorough, gripping look at escalating accountability crises at the Pentagon. Through detailed discussion, original reporting, and clear expert context, listeners are left with a picture of institutional risk-taking, shifting norms, and a search for responsibility that resonates across the national security world and far beyond.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hi, it's Mary Louise with a quick word. Before the show this week at npr, we marked the Global Day of Generosity Giving Tuesday. But this was the first giving Tuesday in NPR's entire history that we are operating without federal funding. That is a big deal. It is a big challenge. So please take a moment to consider what you value about this show. Focused, insightful reporting from inside America's centers of power and around the world. What you hear is the result of decades of experience from our reporters and editors who know the NATSAC beat in inside out. We know their work matters to you because so many of you have already supported it. People like SWATI in Arizona who says love the unbiased coverage of world news. Public media that is not controlled by private interests or the government is more important than ever. Well, thank you to SWATI and to those of you listening who have supported NPR this year. We're grateful. If you haven't found a moment yet, now's the time. Make your Giving Tuesday gift right now and sign up for npr. It is a simple recurring donation that gets you perks to NPR's podcasts. Join us at plus.npr.org thank you again for your support. Here's the show.

[A]

I got calls from like three or four military people who were astounded and angry about this. And they said if I had done this, I would at least lose my security clearance, maybe go to jail.

[B]

Did the secretary of defense put a Mary lives at risk? A new Pentagon report says he did. And what role did he play in the killing of two people on what he says was a drug boat in the Caribbean? This is SOURCES and METHODS from npr.

I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Every Thursday on this podcast, we look at some of the week's biggest national security stories with the NPR reporters who are out there covering them. Back again this week, NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman here in the newsroom with me. Hi to Tom. Hey, Mary Lou Ann Quill Lawrence, who covers national security and veterans, usually based in New York, but today we have the pleasure of seeing you in person. Welcome.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

It's so nice to be here.

[B]

So it has been a week for Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. He is facing scrutiny for the role he may or may not have played in a US Military strike back in September, a strike on a suspected drug smuggling boat, which we'll get to in a moment, because today we've all got eyes on a new internal Pentagon report that finds Hegseth risk a United States bombing mission in Yemen when he shared classified plans on Signal. Okay, Tom, the report, where's it coming from? Who wrote it? What's it say? Headlines.

[A]

This is the Pentagon inspector General, and this report was called for by the two leaders on the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Roger Wicker and also Senator Jack Reid. They asked for it shortly after news reports about these signal chats done by Hegseth a couple of hours before these strikes in Yemen. So they were disturbed by the reports, and they called for the IG to look into this, and it was sent to the Pentagon a couple of months ago for their review, and it just was released today.

[B]

And to what is surely the most explosive line that people are focused on, the conclusion that Hegseth could have put U.S. troops at risk. How so? What's it say?

[A]

Well, it basically says, and Quill has more information on this, that through the signal risks potential Compromise to sensitive DoD information, quote, which could cause harm to DoD personnel and mission objectives. Basically, someone could tap into that information on signal and, you know, relay it to adversaries or, you know, and it put in danger the pilots who are flying in Signal.

[B]

Again, just to remind people, an excellent app. I use it to communicate regularly, but it is not a government app. It is not a classified app. Military officials are not supposed to be discussing battle plans on it.

[C]

And we aren't supposed to discuss it without mentioning that NPR CEO Kathryn Maher is on the board of the Signal Foundation.

[B]

Chairs the board of the Signal foundation, indeed.

[C]

Yeah, I've got the report in my hand here in the studio. It's 76 pages.

And it doesn't do anything to contradict what was published, indeed, leaked to the Atlantic magazine in real time, which is basically that.

[B]

Just to be clear, it wasn't even leaked. They asked the editor in chief of the Atlantic to join this group chat.

[A]

Not knowing that he was improperly added to this signal chat. And you listened in and got all this information?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so, I mean, what it basically says is that emails, classified, emails marked classified were coming from the CENTCOM commander about these impending military operations against the Houthi rebels in Yemen. And that Hegseth, also, pretty much in real time, sent them out several hours before these operations took place, two to four hours. And he sent them over signal, which would have been a terrible breach because you can't send classified information out to people who aren't authorized to see it, including this journalist, but.

Does say that because he was the classifying authority of this information, he could declassify it at any time. And so apparently by sending this out, he was then deciding that he was declassifying it.

[B]

This has been a central point of contention that lawmakers, reporters, others have been trying to figure out was classified information inadvertently revealed. And the argument it sounds like Hegseth has made is it was classified. But I'm the SecDef, and I can declassified it, and that's what I did.

[A]

But there's a process to doing that. You can't just say, in my mind, I'm gonna declass. There's a process, a written process you have to go through. And let's also look at exactly what he was sending. Target information, the timing of aircraft, the F18 aircrafts going to attack the Houthi.

[B]

Rebels and drones and Tomahawk missiles.

[A]

Correct. But the most important thing, of course, is if I'm flying an F18 into Yemen and this guy is sending information over unsecured channels, that could put me at risk if an adversary gets that information and knows I'm coming. That's the key here, right?

[C]

Talks a lot about classified information, whether he could declassify, et cetera. But it takes till page 25, and I want to read this to finally lay it out. And it says the Secretary sent information identifying the quantity and strike times of manned US Aircraft. So people aboard, not a drone, that you shoot down over hostile territory over an unapproved unsecure network, approximately two to four hours before the execution of those strikes. Although the Secretary wrote in his 25 July statements that there were, quote, no details that would endanger our troops or the mission. If this information had fallen into the hands of US adversaries, Houthi forces might have been able to counter US forces I.e. shoot them down, shoot at them, or reposition personnel and assets to avoid planned US Strikes. Even though these events did not ultimately occur, the Secretary's actions created a risk to operational security that could have resulted in failed US Mission objectives and potential harm to us.

[A]

And it's important to note that at the time when the news came out, exactly what happened with Signal and Hegseth's role that he said there was no classified information that was sent out. But this report clearly says no, it was secret information, not for foreign distribution either. So it was quite clear about that. And I gotta tell you one thing. After this broke the story Broke. I got calls from, like, three or four military people who were astounded and angry about this. And they said, tom, if I had done this, I would at least lose my security clearance, maybe go to jail.

[B]

Let me back us up just to how the inspector general looked into this, how the inspector general office knows what they know. Did Secretary Hegseth cooperate with all this? Did he sit down, do an interview?

[A]

He gave a brief statement. He would not sit down for an interview. And he didn't release all of the messages that were over Signal. They had to get them through the Atlantic. That's what happened.

[B]

The editor, Jeff Goldberg, had screenshotted it and then published it.

[A]

And also they said, by the way, that Hagseth said he thinks the IG is partisan, the report was biased. That's his view of this report.

[C]

And just to add a couple more tidbits, he refused to be interested.

[B]

You're deep in this report. Keep going.

[C]

Sorry, it's just. Yeah, I did speed read it before we sat down here. It just came out a couple of hours ago at the time of this taping. But, yeah, the SecDef refused to be interviewed. And he repeatedly said there was no classified evidence, which is okay if he didn't classify it, and no war plans. But it's very clear that they describe here what are really war plans, or at least attack plans, depending whether you say we're at war with the Houthis or not. Signal chats delete automatically, which essentially this report says in so many ways was the destruction of evidence. They could not get that evidence because Signal is set to delete automatically, which is why it's against DoD policy to use it. It's like having a virtual shredder on your device. It disappears the information. And the last bit is that, you know, we had heard reports of other group chats, not just the one with the Secretary of Defense, the vice president. People, okay, you could send this information to. You don't mean to be sending it to the Atlantic. But this report looked into and heard from five officials who said that Hegseth was messaging in other group chats. But essentially because he refused to turn over his personal phone to the ig, he refused to cooperate fully with this investigation. They couldn't confirm reports that he was sending out the same attack details to people like his wife or his brother.

[B]

I will inject. The White House is defending Hagseth. They put out a statement, and it reads, quote, this review affirms what this administration has said from the beginning. No classified information was leaked, and operational security was not compromised. And it goes on to say President Trump stands by Secretary Hegseth. Just a note before we take a break, I do want to second what you said, Quill, that our CEO, NPR CEO Kathryn Maher, is chair of the board of the Signal Foundation. When we get back, other controversy that Pete Hegseth finds himself smack in the middle of. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr.

[D]

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[B]

We're back. President Trump seems to be standing by Secretary Hegseth's side despite controversy after controversy. They keep piling up, which prompts me to say, let's talk Venezuela. We know the United States has carried out actually how many strikes on boats in the Caribbean.

[A]

I think it's 22 now, but we're close to a couple of dozen.

[B]

I would say, okay, close to a couple of dozen. But for the last week, the intense focus has been on the very first day of these strikes. That was September 2nd. And the reason is that there were two strikes. There was the first strike and then a second subsequent one that killed two remaining survivors. Now President Trump is doubling down. He says he didn't know about that. I didn't know about the second strike.

[A]

I didn't know anything about people.

[B]

I wasn't involved in it.

[A]

I knew they took.

[B]

Meanwhile, Pete Hegseth says he wasn't in the room when the Second strike happened.

[C]

As you can imagine, at the Department of War. We got a lot of things to do. So I didn't stick around for the hour and two hours, whatever, where all the sensitive site exploitation digitally occurs. So I moved on to my next meeting.

[B]

Trump and Hank Seth are both pinning this on an admiral, Navy Admiral Frank Bradley. He met with members of Congress today. A few of them are trickling out and sharing what they are learning. Among them, Jim Himes of Connecticut. He's the top Democrat on the House House Intelligence Committee. He spoke today.

[C]

Admiral Bradley and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff did the right thing.

And Admiral Bradley defended the decisions taken. And Admiral Bradley has a storied career and he has my respect and he.

[B]

Should have the respect of all of us.

[C]

But what I saw in that room was one of the most troubling things.

[B]

I've seen in my time in public service.

You have two individuals in clear distress.

[C]

Without any means of locomotion with a destroyed vessel who are killed by the United States.

[B]

What else do we know about these closed door briefings today with the Admiral?

[A]

We don't have a lot of information. Also, Senator Jack Reid, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, also said it was disturbing what he saw. He said all that tape should be released publicly. And let's unpack what happened.

[B]

The video that they have, we think of this.

[A]

So Hegseth and the Admiral were watching the video September 2nd. So there's a strike on this boat. Huge explosion, a lot of smoke. And that's when Secretary Hegset said he left the room. He did not see the second strike. So a second strike came. There were two survivors on the boat itself. Right. The boat's on fire. They were supposedly trying to communicate with their fellow, whatever they are, traffickers, and also trying to corral the drugs. That's what a source told me. And so he saw them, the Admiral saw them and then did another missile strike that killed them. Right. So that's the key here. It's always been a concern. They're not shooting at you. The 11 people weren't shooting at you. None of the people on all these 21, 22 boats were shooting. There was no imminent threat. But the other thing is an imminent.

[B]

Threat to U.S. forces.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

The big deal about the second strike is that if someone is not able to fight back is not posing an imminent threat. You're supposed to take them prisoner, not kill them.

[A]

Along those lines, here is something from the Pentagon's Law of War manual, revised in 2023. It talks in section 18, clearly illegal orders to commit law of war violations. And it says, quote, for example, orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal.

But what they're saying is they were still kind of in the fight. They were communicating, corralling the drugs. What the admiral is arguing is it was a legitimate target because they were still involved.

[B]

I want to go back to this is a much smaller question, but something I've been curious about is that all of this has continued to unfold in Is it normal for a secretary of defense to leave in the middle of a kinetic operation when the US Is attacking a boat?

[A]

You know, I think it does kind.

[B]

Of make sense, which is what Hegseth again says.

[A]

I think it does make sense. If you see a missile strike a boat, you see this massive plume of smoke, you clearly think the boat is destroyed. Hegseth talked about it's the fog of war, but he's talking about something completely different. The fog of war is the uncertainty on the battlefield. So he sees the explosion, he believes that the boat's taken out, and he leaves.

[B]

We just heard President Trump saying, I didn't know anything about this. Is that normal for a commander in chief?

[A]

It's. No, it's not normal. Especially since this is a first strike on these alleged drug boats. You would think the president would want to watch, too, or at least be up to date, moment by moment, about exactly what is happening.

[C]

But to your point, I mean, the phrase the buck stops here has been known to adorn the desks of previous presidents. And in this case, I think it's highly unusual, I suppose, for presidents of the United States. But is now, I think we can say, quite common for President Trump to deny any knowledge of something which he is the commander in chief of. And then the next step down, we have Secretary of Defense Hegseth saying that, yes, he was there at the beginning, but no, then I left for the second strike. You know, Admiral Bradley's your guy for that. This is not the buck stops here. This is not I am in charge and therefore I am responsible.

[B]

This story is moving really fast, so I'm gonna throw down a quick time stamp. We are speaking just coming up to 2 o' clock Eastern on Thursday, and no doubt this story is gonna keep moving. We are gonna take a short break. When we get back, what the future may hold for Secretary Hickseth. That's ahead on Sources and methods from NPR.

[D]

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[C]

Hey, it's Brittany Luce from It's Been a minute. Your voicemail box is full. Okay, I'll admit it. So is mine. So I'm leaving this for you here.

[D]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

All right, we're back. We have just outlined two different controversies that have one big thing in common. Pete Hegseth is at the center of them. We're talking this new Pentagon inspector general report, the ongoing Venezuela boat strikes consequences. Where is this going?

[A]

Well, it's hard to say if Democrats are saying he should resign or be fired or be investigated for war crimes. That's Pete Hegseth. I heard one Republican congressman basically say, well, I think he's learned his lesson. So it'd be interesting to hear what Senate Majority Leader John Thune would have to say about this. And also Roger Wicker, who called for the investigation by the Pentagon IG to look into Signalgate. What he has to say about this.

[B]

It has been really interesting. We have not exactly been overwhelmed by aggressive congressional oversight so far this year. And it's interesting to watch some bipartisan consensus emerging on the need to figure out what the heck happened and what is going on.

[A]

This is one of the first times, I think, that we've seen Congress really push its oversight role on this particular case, I think because people are disturbed that you would basically kill survivors of a shipwreck which is what we're seeing here. And again, questions of war crimes, of murder. I think this really got people, you know, focused on exactly what's going on here for the first time.

[B]

Quell thoughts.

[C]

In lieu of Congress aggressively looking at this or other arms of the US legal system. There is perhaps most Americans don't know about the inter American court system. And a family of a Colombian man who was killed in one of these strikes has now filed a complaint there in the inter American Commission on Human Rights. And this does bring us to the possibility these are alleged drug smuggling boats. One of them appeared to be a semi submersible. It's not a fishing boat or a pleasure boat. Fair enough. But there is a dud rate when the Coast Guard. And this is according to a request made by Republican Senator Rand Paul.

He requested the Coast Guard information about how often they find drugs when they interdict these boats, which is how the US used to deal with these boats. And it turned out about one in five of these boats did not have drugs on it. We should remember with US strikes in recent years there are many infamous examples where the wrong person was blown up, the wrong van was followed with surveillance all around the city of Kabul, Afghanistan and then blown up. And then later investigations showed that they killed the wrong guys. So it's very possible that some of these people were completely innocent or at least innocent until proven guilty.

[A]

And it's important to note that one of the subsequent strikes on the semi submersible submarine, there were two survivors on that boat. One from Ecuador, one from Colombia. The US military rescued them and sent them back to their countries for prosecution. They were not prosecuted, but again they were saved by the US military.

[B]

Let me put a pin in this for now because I want to turn to how we always end osint. Open source intelligence. The not so secret but very telling details that we stumble across in our reporting. Quill is our guest in the DC studio today. What do you guys.

[C]

Yeah, well, I was going to talk about the dud rates, but we already discussed that there's something else and I'm stealing this from our excellent colleague Ryan Lucas, who covers the Department of Justice. But he was treading a little bit on my beat so we talked. He said, did he live? He's fine. After treading on your water's warm. Everyone come cover veterans, please. No. Ryan has been talking with lawyers who have been hearing from military officers this week and they have questions. They're seeking outside counsel to figure out what to do when they are asked to carry out what may be an illegal or unethical strike, or when they're asked to concur with an opinion that says, yes, go ahead and do this. And as Tom mentioned, these examples are literal textbooks, examples of war crimes, of what not to do, of what you were obligated to do instead, orders that you're obligated not to follow. But refusing those orders is not an easy thing. And especially seeing that the Secretary of Defense seems to be trying to distance himself from this and putting instead Admiral Bradley fourth, it's making a lot of people nervous and they're wondering what sort of jeopardy they might be.

[B]

Well, and it's a live issue, of course, because several Democratic members of Congress came out and said, hey, you are not obligated members of the US Security apparatus. If you're given unlawful orders, you're not obligated to follow them. And there's been intense pushback from the administration on that.

[A]

Tom, your Osint, Laura Loomer, the right wing activist, influencer, conspiracy theorist, now has a Pentagon press pass. And she was at the briefing with Kingsley Wilson, the press secretary, and she is a close friend of Pete Hegseth, the Defense secretary. And she has been highly critical of the Army Secretary, Dan Driscoll, for a few months now. And people are telling me that one of the reasons she's doing it is because they're afraid that if Hegseth is goes or if he's pushed, Army Secretary Driscoll could be the next Secretary of Defense. So she's ramped it up a little bit. She put something on social media saying now the army is attempting a coup at the Pentagon to take over. I have not reached out to the army yet to see what the coup plans are, but that's her assessment.

[B]

Speaking of stepping on people's beats, mine is adjacent to yours. This is about a little known but actually central character in the ongoing saga of the Pentagon press corps. And that character is Dan Lamoth's desk. Dan Lamoth, as you two are nodding, you know he is a longtime Washington Post military correspondent. He handed in his credentials along with the rest of the established traditional correspondence earlier this fall. He left behind his desk at the Pentagon, which has now been claimed at last count by at least three people, including Laura Loomer, who tweeted out a picture of herself this week seated at Dan's old desk. She captioned it, now it's mine.

The coda to this story is Dan's desk now has its own account on X. It hold on, let me check my numbers. As of this taping it has 142 followers. That's since this account launched three days ago. And a final note, because we are reporters, I wanted to check my facts. So I reached out to Dan to confirm that I had this straight. Dan the person, not Dan the desk. And he said, yep, yep. And he said one more detail for you to know. He hadn't actually had this desk since March. He had been forced out of it when the Pentagon did. I believe it was the second round of media rotations and some legacy news organizations were forced to give up their spin. Yeah, you were in the first round.

[C]

They cut you first.

[A]

They cut me first.

[B]

You were cut earlier.

[A]

I found out about it at a party. A friend of mine went up and said, have you seen this? I was like, oh, my God, they took away our booth.

[C]

That's my desk.

[B]

Well, there you go. The desks are there. They're being occupied by the incoming new Pentagon press corps, which includes the newly credentialed Laura Loomer.

[C]

Best of luck to them and best.

[B]

Of luck to you. NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Thank you.

[A]

You're welcome.

[B]

And national security correspondent Quill Lawrence. Thank you.

[C]

Great to be here.

[B]

And a reminder, you can get in touch with us at sources and methods, all1wordpr.org if you have a question about the NATSAC beat or how we do our jobs, let us know. We might answer it in a future episode. And speaking of making your voice heard, one more thing to tell you. This year, NPR is celebrating the most memorable podcast episodes of the year and inviting listeners to crown the winner of the People's Choice Award. You can vote for your favorite show. There's a right answer here, folks, at npr.org peopleschoice that's npr.org peopleschoice Check out our episode notes for links and more. I'm Mary Louise Kelley. We are back next week with another episode of Sources and Methods from npr.

[A]

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[D]

Comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level. Today, evergreen trees are Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest.

[B]

I'm Jen Chavez.

[D]

Listen to the Evergreen podcast from OPB every Monday, part of the NPR Network.