Europe's post-Munich exhale / Machado on gifting Nobel to Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sources & Methods (NPR)

Episode: Europe’s Post-Munich Exhale / Machado on Gifting Nobel to Trump
Date: February 17, 2026
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guests: Michael Froman (President, Council on Foreign Relations), Maria Corina Machado (Venezuelan opposition leader)

---

Overview

This special episode of "Sources & Methods" provides an in-depth post-Munich Security Conference analysis. It explores America's current tone towards Europe under Secretary of State Marco Rubio, the state of the transatlantic alliance, and the evolving security landscape in the West. The second half features a revealing conversation with Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado about her controversial decision to gift her Nobel Peace Prize to President Trump—and her vision for Venezuela’s future. The episode closes with "OSINT," providing lighter, behind-the-scenes conference anecdotes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. America’s Tone at the Munich Security Conference

• Context and Anticipation
  • European partners anxiously awaited U.S. policy signals amid speculation over the future of the transatlantic alliance.
  • [00:00] Mary Louise Kelly: “America’s European partners waited to see if America would continue its commitment to the transatlantic alliance.”
• Secretary Marco Rubio’s Reassurances
  • Rubio delivered a notably softer and more conciliatory speech, emphasizing ongoing commitment:
    • [00:11] Marco Rubio: “In a time of headlines heralding the end of the transatlantic era, let it be known and clear to all that this is neither our goal nor our wish... for us Americans, our home may be in the Western Hemisphere, but... we will always be a child of Europe.”
  • Rubio’s tone was widely seen as a collective “sigh of relief.”
    • [02:31] Michael Froman: “Absolutely. I think that was the overwhelming sense... very much not a divorce proceeding between the US and Europe, but instead trying to repair things.”

Memorable quote

• [02:44] Interviewer: “A Valentine’s Day bouquet for the transatlantic alliance.”

---

2. Transatlantic Trust and the NATO Question

• Repairing Damage from Recent Years
  • Post-Greenland “wrecking ball” diplomacy under Trump left trust “broken.”
  • [03:07] Michael Froman: “Trust has been broken, the relationship has fundamentally changed.”
• NATO’s Evolution
  • U.S. insists it is asking allies to do more, not less; expectation for Europe to strengthen its strategic autonomy.
    • [04:08] Michael Froman: “I think actually they do agree that a NATO that has a stronger European component…”

Notable quote and reflection:

• [05:12] Froman on U.S.-Europe dynamics: “The United States has never demanded more of Europe, and Europe has never expected less of the United States.”

• French Nuclear Discussions

  • Macron pushing UK-German-French nuclear talks; the U.S. remains focused on “the nuclear umbrella” and prefers Europe to prioritize conventional defense ([06:06]).

---

3. Security Flashpoints Beyond Europe

• Greenland
  • Once a dominant story, now sidelined but still a marker for shifts in U.S.-Europe trust ([06:52-07:45]).
• Iran
  • Rising tensions: U.S. sends a second carrier; Munich abuzz as Reza Pahlavi (son of former Shah) works the conference halls.
    • [08:11] Froman: “The president has made a number of statements in support of the protesters... trying to get Iran into negotiation, primarily over the future of their nuclear program.”
• China
  • Minimal focus at Munich, but underlying concern as some European actors contemplate hedging between the U.S. and China ([08:48-09:35]).

---

4. Will Europe Step Up?

• Next Steps for Europe
  • Watch for progress on European economic reform, regulatory reform, a unified defense industrial base.
    • [09:42] Froman: “Is Europe going to take this seriously now?”
• Recurring Skepticism
  • Reports and pledges abound, but will this crisis prompt action or a return to complacency?

---

5. Maria Corina Machado: Nobel Prize to Trump & Venezuela’s Future

• The Gifted Nobel

  • Machado explains her dramatic gesture as rooted in gratitude for U.S. action “opening the way for a transition to democracy in Venezuela” ([11:56]).
  • [12:51] Machado: “...the only country that has risked the lives of some of its citizens for the freedom of Venezuela is United States... what happened on January 3rd definitely opens the path...”
  • She expects “nothing specific” in return, only more international engagement ([13:30]).

• On Her Role and Leverage

  • She remains active despite exile, arguing real leverage comes from organized internal resistance and diaspora activism ([16:29]).
  • [15:47] Machado: “You always get profound analysis... but always leave one on the side, which is the most important of all, and that's the people. And we've come to this point because the people of Venezuela decided to be free...”
  • She denies being sidelined, emphasizing networks of citizen activists.

• On U.S. Dealings with the Maduro Regime

  • Machado comments on the U.S. Energy Secretary meeting the interim regime, stressing it's a “phase” and sees institutional restoration as just beginning ([18:57]).

Memorable moments & quotes

• [21:55] Machado (on Venezuela’s ambitions): “Our goal, our challenge is to turn a country that has been the criminal hub of the Americas into the energy hub of the Americas, into the technology hub of the Americas, but also into the democracy example for the rest of the world.”

• Elections in Venezuela

  • Timeline is uncertain—technically possible within 40 weeks if infrastructure is rebuilt; politically, it depends on developing conditions ([20:11-21:13]).

---

6. OSINT: Scenes from Munich

• Layer upon layer of security; press and dignitaries experience “crushes” of movement through halls ([23:13]).
• Memorable incident: Mary Louise Kelly finds herself jammed against the Prime Minister of Denmark, Meta Frederiksen ([24:11]), who commiserates in the crowd.
• Light moment: NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte’s mistaken entry to the ladies’ room; escapes interview, to the hosts’ amusement ([24:19]).

---

Segment Timestamps

| Topic / Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Rubio’s keynote & European reaction | 00:00–04:00 | | NATO, trust, and transatlantic expectations | 04:00–06:35 | | Lightning round: Greenland, Iran, China | 06:35–10:43 | | Europe’s next steps | 09:35–10:43 | | Machado interview: Nobel decision | 11:10–13:27 | | Machado: leverage, US-Venezuela relations | 13:27–19:22 | | Venezuelan elections—timeline, ambitions | 19:54–22:52 | | OSINT—Conference vignettes | 22:59–25:18 |

---

Conclusion

This episode captures a pivotal moment in U.S.-Europe relations and the complicated, high-stakes transition in Venezuela. The tone throughout is brisk yet conversational, with candid observations from diplomatic players and a touch of human humor—making it absorbing both for policy aficionados and general listeners alike.

Notable Quote, Summing Up

• [21:55] Maria Corina Machado: “...freedom is not free, that you can lose democracy in less than one generation. And once that happens, it is very costly to bring it back.”

---

For further questions or feedback, reach out to [e-mail].

Transcript

[Mary Louise Kelly]

On a cold, gray Saturday in Germany, America's European partners waited to see if America would continue its commitment to the transatlantic alliance.

[Marco Rubio]

In a time of headlines heralding the end of the transatlantic era, let it be known and clear to all that this is neither our goal nor our wish. Because for us Americans, our home may be in the Western Hemisphere, but. But we will always be a child of Europe.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Yes, a softer American tone at the Munich Security Conference than the year before. Did Europe breathe a sigh of relief? This is Sources and Methods from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. If you heard our show last week, you know we were at the Munich Security Conference. That's a gathering in Germany where world leaders, security experts and defense officials meet yearly to take the temperature of the global order. This is a special follow up episode to share some of what we learned there in the form of two interviews, one with Maria Corinna Machado, the Venezuelan opposition leader who last month gave her Nobel Peace Prize to President Trump. Yes, we did ask about that and so much more. But first, Michael Froman, president of the.

[Narrator/Producer]

Council on Foreign Relations, veteran of many a Munich security conference.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Like everyone else there, he had been waiting with bated breath to see what Secretary of State Marco Rubio would say in his keynote. Would Rubio find a way to bridge differences or would he swing a big.

[Narrator/Producer]

Old wrecking ball at the transatlantic alliance?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Michael Froman stopped by to debrief after Rubio's speech on Saturday. And just a note, we will be.

[Narrator/Producer]

Back with our regular episode rounding up the week's biggest NATSEC news on Thursday. As always, I suspect there will be lots to talk about.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Now here's my Munich conversation with Froman.

[Interviewer]

It's great to see you here in Munich on our busy little balcony. Overlook the entrance as bigwigs come and go. Great to see you.

[Michael Froman]

Great to be here.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so everyone was waiting. The big moment at this conference was Marco Rubio, who spoke in the ballroom just down the stairs from where you and I are standing now. Earlier today, everyone was wondering, would he hammer the final nail in the coffin of the transatlantic alliance?

As you listened, I wonder where I was?

The sigh of relief was audible.

[Michael Froman]

Absolutely. I think that was the overwhelming sense is that the reinforcement of the transatlantic relationship? Very much not a divorce proceeding between the US And Europe, but instead trying to repair things, I think in a.

[Interviewer]

Post Greenland environment, a Valentine's Day bouquet. Valentine's Day bouquet for the transatlantic alliance. But. And you knew there was a but coming. But set against the Trump administration's words and actions over the last year is trust so easily repaired? Can you put the horse back in the barn?

[Michael Froman]

So, look, I think on one hand, there's a lot of consistency over the last year in terms of getting Europe to pay more for its own defense, take some of the difficult actions necessary to be a stronger defense partner. I think, frankly, the extra step of not taking the use of force off the table when it came to talking about Greenland a month or so ago, really did have a very significant impact, probably more than the White House maybe have fully appreciated in terms of the public and the political class here feeling like, okay, trust has been broken, the relationship has fundamentally changed. Question now is Secretary Rubio gave quite reassuring messages, as did other officials who are here in munich, about NATO 3.0 and being committed to NATO going forward.

[Interviewer]

Stay with NATO for a second because Secretary Rubio, others from the Trump administration here have argued, hey, we're not trying to break it, we're making it stronger. Would Europeans listening agree?

[Michael Froman]

I think actually they do agree that that a NATO that has a stronger European component. Remember, the Europeans have been talking about strategic autonomy for some time, long before President Trump. And I think this is perhaps the momentum, the push from outside together, frankly, with the push from President Putin and what's going on in Ukraine that may get Europe to finally take the actions necessary. The question is, do they read Secretary Rubio's statement as allowing them to take the foot off the gas or not? Will they continue to be motivated to take the very difficult actions that are going to be necessary, mobilize the resources, consolidate their defense establishment, and really devote the kind of focus to their conventional defense that has been lacking before.

[Interviewer]

You wrote a great piece for the New York Times as we were all walking into the Munich Security Conference. And I want to quote one line of it to you and ask, does it hold up or would you care to revise this? You wrote, the United States has never demanded more of Europe, and Europe has never expected less of the United States. What do you think?

[Michael Froman]

I think it holds up pretty well. I mean, certainly the demands are there. They become clearer and clearer as each administration spokesman has given their speeches about what we're really looking for Europe to do going going forward in terms of resources, conventional focus, and just being more responsible for European security. And I think Europe's expectations of the US in part because of perhaps the breach in trust that we've seen over the last couple months, I think Europe's expectations of the US Are less and less.

[Interviewer]

President Macron of France also addressed the conference. He was Here Friday night, France has been at the head of the we need to push back against President Trump camp, I think it's fair to say. And he talked about that he is planning talks with the Germans on nuclear arms. Does that track with what we heard today from the US The US has.

[Michael Froman]

Been very focused on Europe taking more responsibility for its conventional defense. I don't think it wants to see nuclear proliferation broadly or even across Europe. It's a little unclear what this cooperation between the uk, France and Germany with regard to the nuclear deterrent may look like. I think the US Continues to be committed to providing the nuclear umbrella for security of not only the United States, but of its other allies. The question is really on the conventional side.

[Interviewer]

We're standing in Europe, we're standing in Germany. This conference is rightly focused on Europe and the transatlantic relations. But let me do a quick lightning round of some of the other places that are very much in the mix of conversation here. Greenland and US Attempts to claim Greenland.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Did Rubio even mention it in his speech this morning?

[Michael Froman]

If he. I don't think did. I think, look, I think they're there again. Post Davos, there was a bit of a sigh of relief that Margaret and President Trump had reached some sort of pathway forward. We don't really know what the details.

[Interviewer]

One month ago, that was all anybody was talking about. President Trump was talking.

[Michael Froman]

Exactly.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Greenland.

[Narrator/Producer]

Greenland.

[Michael Froman]

Greenland, exactly. It took over from everything else. And at least here, there's been some space to talk about Ukraine, to talk about Iran, talk about the Middle East. Not in great detail. I mean, this has not been a conference that's been focused fundamentally on perhaps the most important issue of European security, which is the future of Ukraine and how Europe and the United States are going to support Ukraine in its battle against. Battle against Russia. But at least Greenland hasn't dominated the conversation here, as it did a month or so ago.

[Interviewer]

Stay with Iran. Reza Pahlavi, the son of the deposed Shah of Iran, is here. He's been working the halls. I just passed him on the stairs. That is happening here in Munich as news is breaking in the US that the US Is now sending a second aircraft carrier to the waters off of Iran. What kind of conversations are you hearing here about that?

[Michael Froman]

I think the question is, what are we trying to get done at this point? The president has made a number of statements in support of the protesters, is then pivoted to trying to get Iran into a negotiation, primarily over the future of their nuclear program. Not unlike the JCPOA from. From several years ago. But perhaps going, perhaps going further. We don't know where those negotiations are. They don't seem to progress terribly far. And the use of force or the threat of the use of force, sending a second aircraft carrier may well be to take military action if there isn't progress. And two, to increase the leverage so that negotiations can proceed.

[Interviewer]

China China's foreign Minister Wang Yi spoke right after Secretary Rubio. The room was emptying. Did anyone hear what he had to say? Where do relations with China stand?

[Michael Froman]

You know, it has not been a big focus here, although it's been important that they be here because Europeans are also considering sort of hedging their bets. I think the chancellor of Germany is heading to China with a large business delegation. Others have talked about trying to sort of mediate between the US And China or find a third way. I think that is not likely to be successful because some of the same challenges that the US has identified in the China relationship are going to affect Europe very much as well, including with regard to their manufacturing capacity in the future.

[Interviewer]

So once everyone's made their way home and this 62nd Munich Security Conference is in the books, what are you going.

To be watching for?

Have you figured that out yet?

[Michael Froman]

I think we're going to be watching as to whether Europe really takes the necessary steps that have been talked about for years on economic reform, on regulatory reform, on capital markets union, as well as with regard to their defense industrial base. Avoiding the need for every country to have its own tank or every country to have its own air defense system to really consolidate and have continental wide strategy towards their defense efforts going to be focused on. Is Europe going to take this seriously? Now?

[Interviewer]

They say they will.

[Michael Froman]

They say they will, but they've said it before and there are lots of reports out there, the Draghi report, the letter report as to what Europe needs to do to become more productive, more innovative. Is this crisis, the crisis with Trump on one side, Putin on the other side, Greenland in the middle, Is this combination of forces going to be enough to get Europe to take the actions necessary or will they become complacent again? And if they do, then I think there's going to be more tension in the transatlantic relationship.

[Interviewer]

Mike Froman, he runs the Council on Foreign Relations. Thanks for coming to see us here on the balcony at the Munich Security Conference.

[Michael Froman]

Thanks for having me.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

We're going to take a short break. When we get back, why did Venezuela's opposition leader give President Trump her Nobel Peace Prize? And what did she get in return? That's ahead on sources And Methods from npr.

[Narrator/Producer]

We're back.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

On Saturday afternoon, I hosted a conversation with Maria Corino Machado, Venezuela's opposition leader, at the Munich Security Conference. I was on stage with a live audience. Machado was on zoom from an undisclosed location in the United States. It had been more than a year since I last spoke to her. I started with a question that's been on my mind these last few why did she give her Nobel Peace Prize to President Trump?

[Narrator/Producer]

Here's a part of our conversation.

[Interviewer]

You left Venezuela to go collect your Nobel Peace Prize. Congratulations. You gave your prize to Donald Trump.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Why?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, first of all, we have to understand what this has meant for the Venezuelan people. What has happened this year. It's been 27 years of brutal devastation, not only of our institutions, of our resources, of our families. Finally, we are seeing decisive action on the part of the United States government under the leadership of President Trump. And I have to say something. The only country that has risked the lives of some of its citizens for the freedom of Venezuela is United States. So we are very grateful because what happened on January 3rd definitely opens the path, opens the way for a transition to democracy in Venezuela. That's why we did it on behalf of the Venezuelan people.

[Interviewer]

So I do hear your message of gratitude to the United States, but why give your Nobel Peace Prize? Why give it to Donald Trump?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, I believe it's fair and it represents the feeling, the profound gratitude of the Venezuelan peoples, not only for what he has done, but what we believe and trust will take place very soon in Venezuela in terms of transforming our country from the criminal hub of the Americas into the energy hub and the technology hub of our continent.

[Interviewer]

What did you get in return?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, I'm not expecting to get nothing specific. What we are determined to is to work together not only with the United States, but also engage other democratic countries around the world into the first liberation and rebuilding of a nation that has huge potential, not only warn or support in words, but actual action in order to dismantle this structure. And that's what I believe. It's going to take place as we move ahead.

[Interviewer]

And I wantthere's many more details I want to get into on the future of Venezuela and what you would like to see happen and what plans are being made. Let me just stick for a minute on your plans. When will you go back to Venezuela?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, I will go back as soon as possible when I accomplish actions and objectives that I have in place right now. It means engaging with international actors directly, one on one, which I had not been able to do because as you are aware, I had been banned from leaving Venezuela for over 12 years and also because I believe there is a lot of organization that has to be done internationally. So I'm doing the job abroad. And as soon as I can, I will go back to a country in which many things are taking place as we speak.

[Interviewer]

Do you need America to facilitate that? Do you need American permission to go home to Venezuela?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Oh, no, not permission, but certainly I would say that we desire, we will have coordination.

[Interviewer]

Maria Corna, I just want to ask the blunt question to allow you to respond. The state of play is that you are not in Venezuela. The US Is driving the agenda in your country right now. You're not there. You don't control the oil, you don't control the army. To those who wonder if you have been sidelined, what do you say? Have you been sidelined?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, I've heard that for years because at the end you usually get profound analysis and scenarios and formulas that have dozens of variables but always leave one on the side, which is the most important of all, and that's the people. And we've come to this point because the people of Venezuela decided to be free and decided to risk everything in order to have a democratic country to which their children could come back.

[Interviewer]

But do you have any leverage from outside the country?

[Maria Corina Machado]

From outside and from inside. And from inside. I mean, I was in hiding during 16 months and we never stopped working, organizing and communicating. We have a network of citizens organized that were a million volunteers for the electoral process and that have turned into an ordered underground, a real time communication platform of individuals ready to act significantly and moving ahead into a democratic transition and to support this process as well.

[Interviewer]

So Chris Wright, the US Energy Secretary, was in Venezuela this week. He is, I believe, the highest ranking US official to visit since Nicolas Maduro was ousted. He met Delsey Rodriguez, the acting president, at Miraflores, the presidential palace. There were photographs of them smiling and shaking hands and a big band playing. I just wonder what was going through your head as you watched that.

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, just think where we were five weeks ago and where we are right now. Everybody thought it was impossible to have Maduro face his international law and where he is right now. So what's important to think is what Ms. Rodriguez is thinking right now after what they've said. They know the world knows they are part of a criminal structure. She's an essential part of the cartel. She was the one who was the architect and overlooked the torture system and the repressive structure. What we believe now is that we need to move forward into this transition once the rest of the repressive structure is further dismantled and weakened. And that's the direction in which we should move ahead now.

[Interviewer]

But I guess my question again, what is it like to be sitting outside Venezuela watching the US Shaking hands and making deals and signing contracts with people who you just described as running a cartel and remnants of the regime? These are the same Delsey Rodriguez and.

[Narrator/Producer]

Others.

[Interviewer]

Who were leading the country and crushed the will of the Venezuelan people in the presidential election of 2024.

[Maria Corina Machado]

We all know this is not sustainable. We all know this is a phase in which the restoration of institutions is just starting. And what we are watching, and we have thought for this very long, is a process taking place and advancing at a pace that we certainly want to move ahead and to accelerate. And we're doing our part outside and inside.

[Narrator/Producer]

We're going to take a short break.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

When we get back, elections in Venezuela. What's the timeline? Plus a special Munich edition of osint. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr. We're back with my conversation with Maria Corino Machado at the Munich Security Conference. She is the Venezuelan opposition leader. She joined me via Zoom from an undisclosed location in the U.S. here's some more of that conversation.

[Interviewer]

You created a little bit of a stir when you made comments, I think a week or two ago, giving some kind of timeline for when elections would happen in Venezuela and the White House jumped in and said, uh, not that, not so fast, we'll let you know. What is the timeline for general elections in Venezuela?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, one thing is what technically is possible and the other is what political feasible. What is technically possible, given the situation of the Venezuelan infrastructure and the destruction of electoral registry and how elections have been totally fraudulent and we have no results whatsoever, is to start dismantling the electronic system and building one that can give the Venezuelan population absolute trust in the results and that if you give the right for all Venezuelans inside and abroad to vote. So technically we can have free and fair elections the moment you start the process in 40 weeks. Certainly there are political conditions that have to take place before and during that process. And as soon as it takes place, it would be better not only for Venezuelans, but also for the region and certainly for the United States.

[Interviewer]

So is the short answer to when Venezuela will hold elections as soon as possible. But we don't know.

[Maria Corina Machado]

Yes, that's true. But we do know what we have to do and we are doing it in order for that to take place.

[Interviewer]

I'll bring us to a close by asking this. Five years from now, when you're president first, we hope you'll come to Munich and take questions here and be able to travel the way world freely. But my question is what role do you see a democratic Venezuela playing in the region and on the world stage?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Thank you very much for that question. Our goal, our challenge is to turn a country that has been the criminal hub of the Americas into the energy hub of the Americas, into the technology hub of the Americas, but also into the democracy example for the rest of the world. So what we see and we need to be is not only an example of inspiration to others, but assured that future generations of Venezuelans learn from our mistakes, but also by of our incredible achievements to see that freedom is not free, that you can lose democracy in less than one generation. And once that happens, it is very costly to bring it back.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Maria Corina Machado at the Munich Security Conference.

[Narrator/Producer]

Now, as always, we will end with.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

OSINT Open source Intelligence, the not so secret yet telling details we stumble across in our reporting.

[Narrator/Producer]

And I have a special edition for you. This was my first time at the.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Munich Security Conference where there is layer.

[Narrator/Producer]

Upon layer of security to get inside. That's because of all the heads of state and top officials who attend. There are separate entrances and exits for dignitaries, other ones for the press. My colleagues who were with me on the ground had to have a minder, someone who escorted them from one place to the next. I will share.

[Interviewer]

At one point, I got caught in.

[Narrator/Producer]

A total crush of people trying to exit the main hall for speakers as another crush of people was trying to push their way in. I ended up smushed against the elevators. There was no way to move, no way to turn around. And I locked eyes with a woman who was packed right up against me. And we kind of rolled our eyes at each other like, can you believe this? How are we ever going to get out of here? And as I'm looking at her thinking, I think I recognize her. Who? Oh, yeah, that's the Prime. That's the Prime Minister of Denmark, Meta Frederiksen. And I said, you're just caught here like the rest of us. And she said, yes, yep, of course.

[Interviewer]

So that is the scene at the.

[Narrator/Producer]

Hotel Bayerischerhof, which is where the conference is held every year. It is also one last little morsel of osint.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Also a place where you just might run into the Secretary General of NATO in the ladies room.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yes, true story. This happened to my wonderful editor, Courtney Dorning, my wonderful producer Karen Zamora who were with me at the conference. They were just exiting the facilities when the door flew open. They say they heard a voice from the hall saying, I, I think that's the ladies room, sir. And the sir was none other than NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte who turned around very quickly and headed down the hall to the men's room. Amazing that he escaped without their nabbing him for an interview for Sources and methods. So Mr. Ruta, invitation stand next time, okay? A reminder, join us again on Thursday. Our regular episode unpacking the week's biggest national security news will drop.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And a word of thanks if you're one of the many listeners who's taken.

[Narrator/Producer]

A minute to rate and review our.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Show on the platform where you listen.

[Narrator/Producer]

It does go a long way toward helping new people find this show. So thank you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I'm Mary Louise Kelly back Thursday with more sources and methods from NPR.