Abigail Spanberger (2:52)

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Mary Louise Kelly (2:55)

So you come to this having just served three terms in Congress where you were widely known as a moderate Democrat. Start there. Why not run for a fourth term? Or I guess, to put it another way, what can you do at the state level that you couldn't do in Washington?

Abigail Spanberger (3:09)

Well, it's a question of what it is that I can do at the state level, and that's not necessarily in opposition or in contrast to the state level, but as I continued campaigning and ultimately serving the people of Virginia's 7th district, and as I traveled around my district and I looked at the issues that were impacting people, the challenges people were facing, the things people would bring to me, yes, there's many things, whether it's the cost of living, housing, healthcare, energy, affordability into the future. There's many things that we can address at the federal level. But if you want to address them with a level of urgency that allows you to make change, make impact, strengthen public schools, work to bring communities together. Frankly, so much of that work does happen at the state level. Watching my friends in the state legislature pass a bill and then it goes to the other body and then it goes to the governor's desk, and by the summer, it's impacting people's lives. It's pretty extraordinary.

Mary Louise Kelly (4:09)

It's interesting, just the timeline and speed at which you can get things done when you're actually really in charge of things.

Abigail Spanberger (4:17)

That's right.

Mary Louise Kelly (4:17)

Yeah. I am thinking that the last time I interviewed you, I just went and looked, was 2021. Joe Biden was in the White House. You and your fellow Democrats controlled the House, thin margin, but you were in the majority. Y' all were still struggling to advance his agenda. And I remember asking a pretty blunt question, what do Democrats stand for? How would you answer that question today?

Abigail Spanberger (4:43)

I'm curious to know how I answered it back then, but I know back.

Mary Louise Kelly (4:46)

Then you told me, I'm paraphrasing, but you said, democrats need to quit arguing on tv. And then you said we need to do a better job of saying this is what we're working toward. What are you working toward in 2024?

Abigail Spanberger (5:00)

What I'm working towards. I mean, I think this is. This is the most central thing, what I'm working towards is delivering a Virginia that is ultimately more affordable. It's contending with the issues that matter to Voters, to Virginians, to small businesses, to small business owners, to family farmers, to communities across our commonwealth. You know, we, like so many places across the country, are impacted by worry about affordability, housing supply that is causing costs to go up for families to rent a home, to buy a home. Here in Virginia, the cost of buying a house has gone up 18% over the last four years, 14% over the last four years to rent a home. And that has a real impact. And so what I am for is contending with and making progress on, and, you know, frankly, also being honest with voters and with Virginians. We cannot fix every problem. There's no kind of one single lever to pull. If there were, we would have pulled it a while ago. But we need someone who's relentless in bringing together members of our state legislature to pass bills that are going to move us in the right direction. Having an administration where every secretariat is focused on improving the lives of Virginians and creating opportunity and ultimately, day in and day out, focusing on delivering, just.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:18)

To push you on this. And I know you don't speak for the Democratic Party, but you have served at senior levels in Washington and now about to be in Virginia. Has your party figured out what you stand for as opposed to standing against a lot of President Trump's agenda?

Abigail Spanberger (6:36)

So this is where I will say whether people have figured it out or not doesn't matter as much as whether the voters, the people of the country or of individual states think that we have. Right. I mean, I think I'm a Democrat because I think our policies are better at getting at the issues that matter most to people, helping people, creating opportunity.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:57)

But you're speaking to a messaging challenge.

Abigail Spanberger (6:59)

Yeah. And so with, if people don't realize it, don't feel it, don't know it across the country, then I think it's up to every person in elected office or seeking elected office to make clear what they are for. And I do think that there is a lot of room for improvement in many places across the country, without question.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:22)

How are you thinking about Virginia's relationship with the federal government?

Abigail Spanberger (7:26)

So I, I look forward to working with the federal government every place that we can when there are issues, whether it's related to energy or whether it's related to defense and national security priorities. I will be happy to work with the federal government in this administration. However, I will also be very clear that anytime there's policies that are hurting Virginians or Virginia's economy or our communities, I will stand up in defense of the people who elected me as their.

Mary Louise Kelly (8:00)

Governor, how's your relationship with President Trump?

Abigail Spanberger (8:05)

Well, I haven't seen him in quite some time, so I would say yet to be determined. Certainly, I have not had any positive things to say about the choices that he's made that have, you know, hurt small family farmers across Virginia, cut off whole markets, increased input costs, certainly the firing and the attack on the federal workforce, more than 320,000 of whom call Virginia home. The chaos of the trade and tariff policies, the attack on health care. We're on pace to see rural hospitals close here in Virginia. And so there's a lot of things that we disagree with. And I have been vocal in my opposition to policies that are going to hurt Virginians. But if he wants to talk about how to lower costs, I'm happy to have that conversation.

Mary Louise Kelly (8:55)

We need to take a break. Back with more from our interview with Abigail Spanberger right after this. You're listening to sources and methods from npr.

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Mary Louise Kelly (10:56)

I mentioned Abigail Spanberger. You're the first woman to be elected governor of Virginia. For years, every time I interview a woman who's the first woman to hold a position. I ask about it and I always think, I so look forward to when I get to stop asking this question. Because we've reached a day when it's utterly normal for women to be amply represented in positions of leadership. Are we close? How far off is that day?

Abigail Spanberger (11:22)

I think it's closer than it was. Closer than it was two months ago, I'll say that. You know, and I think it's every bit of progress because every example of leadership and of what, you know, different styles can be, who can be in positions of leadership, every example that, you know, that the next generation sees is helpful. And, you know, I would. I would note, not only certainly was I elected, but we elected a woman as our lieutenant governor. We flipped 13 seats in the General Assembly. The majority of them were also women candidates who flipped those seats. And so I think what's exciting for me is to hear from people who say things like, you know, I. I brought my daughter here, I brought my granddaughter here so that they can see you speak. Or, you know, yesterday there was a teenage girl who said, oh, my goodness, my. My grandpa loves you. I was at. At an event and she asked me to film a little video. So I said, hello. She's like, grandpa, look who I'm with. And the idea that a grandfather and his granddaughter are bonding over, you know, a candidate that for different reasons, presumably they're paying attention to my then candidacy and now me as the incoming governor. I think there's exciting pieces to that, and I think that we are much, much closer and we get ever closer to having, you know, those very boring and very normal interviews that you look forward to having with just yet another woman governor.

Mary Louise Kelly (12:52)

Yet another woman governor. How boring is that? Do you spend much time thinking about it?

Abigail Spanberger (12:59)

I actually find it really, really heavy to think about. So the short answer is, I don't spend that much time thinking about it because then it leads me to the next place of, well, then how do I ensure that everything I do is setting a good example from, of course, the good policies I put forth, but the way I give a speech, to the way I present myself, to the way I, you know, speak about every aspect of what led me here or who I am or what I want to achieve. But I do recognize the example and the permission structure. There was a group of teenagers I saw yesterday, which is why I have multiple teenage girls on my mind. And another one said to me, she said, I'm going to follow in your footsteps and I'm going to be president. She said, and so I looked at her, I said, okay, well, remind me your name. And she said, her name. And I said, okay, well, I'll remember that for when I'm bubbling you in on my presidential ballot. Right. And I don't know that she would have had that same conversation with, you know, a man who happened to be the governor elect.

Mary Louise Kelly (14:11)

Let's turn to the other piece of your Resume, the former CIA officer piece. When did you join the agency?

Abigail Spanberger (14:18)

2006 is when I joined the agency.

Mary Louise Kelly (14:22)

Why?

Abigail Spanberger (14:23)

I always, always, always wanted to serve at CIA. In fact, I got my first conditional job offer in 2002. My background took quite some time, but for me it was the perfect place where you could answer tough questions and help keep the American people safe and work in service to the country and have adventures. Certainly, as I saw it back then, and I loved it, I was a case officer. I was undercover my whole time at the agency. I later got my employment declassified.

Mary Louise Kelly (14:58)

You were always on the operations side?

Abigail Spanberger (15:00)

Always? Yes. Yeah.

Mary Louise Kelly (15:02)

Were you one of those people who was. It sounds like you were already on that track before 9 11.

Abigail Spanberger (15:09)

It was always my plan before 9 11. And in fact, after I graduated college, I moved to Germany and I was in a graduate program. It was a dual degree US German MBA program. And my whole plan was to do this MBA program. It came with automatic work authorization in Germany. I was like, I'm going to perfect my German. You know, at the era back then was, okay, German's the language you got to learn, man. No offense to the Germans. That was apparently bad advice. And so I was planning to use that work authorization, perfect my German, and come home to the US and apply with CIA. And I was in Germany on 9 11. And I thought, well, if this is what I want to be doing in five years, this is what I should be doing now. So I finished my degree program and I moved back home to the US And I applied at that time. I don't know if it's still the same. You had to be in the US to apply. And so as soon as I got back home, I submitted my application, went from there, got my conditional offer relatively quickly. And then, you know, in that post 911 timeframe, the background check took quite some time. But it was what I always, always wanted to do.

Mary Louise Kelly (16:23)

And I know you are still constrained in what you can share about the work you did at CIA, but what can you share about the work you did at CIA?

Abigail Spanberger (16:33)

So I was a case officer. So I was among the cohort of people who were you know, spotting, assessing, developing, recruiting people to commit espionage on behalf of the United States and then ultimately collect that information. It's a role where you have to know the ins and outs of what's known, what's not known, what are the gaps in what we know about different threats. And you have to go meet the people who, in my experience so frequently are really driven by a positive view of the United States, at least at that time, or an ideology or a desire to ensure that the United States and their home nation didn't have some catastrophic misunderstanding that could lead down a negative path. And so I had the opportunity to, you know, ask extraordinary questions and send intel reports back to Washington that informed CIA analysts and ultimately made their way into larger disseminated intelligence reports and, you know, on occasion, the Presidential Daily Brief, which of course, is the sort of pinnacle of what you can collect and make sure the president knows about. And it was an amazing honor to be able to know that you're contributing as one of the bits of input depending upon the topics that I covered. And I covered nuclear programs. I of course, worked counterterrorism my whole time at the agency as well, some drug trafficking related cases. But to be able to know that you're pushing information back to Washington, back to decision makers, back to the Pentagon ultimately, or to embassies overseas that can help us do right, not just by the American people, not just by our own national security, but frankly, to help uphold that position of US Global leadership. It was something that I believed in very, very deeply and I still do. Just I think I'm trying to fulfill that effort in a different way now.

Mary Louise Kelly (18:31)

Time for a break. When we come back, I'll ask Abigail Spanberger about that video made by six Democratic lawmakers calling on members of the military and the intelligence community to refuse illegal orders. This is Sources and Methods from npr.

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Mary Louise Kelly (20:15)

And we're back with our interview with Virginia governor elect and one time CIA officer Abigail Spanberger. Well, and I was curious, what skills have you found transfer from that life from the world of espionage to the world of politics?

Abigail Spanberger (20:32)

Well, I can talk to anyone. I think I have a very personal level of interest and curiosity about people. So I think that that's a, it's a little bit of an, of a quality that I've always had as a kid and growing up, but certainly as a, as a CIA officer, you gotta, you gotta ask a lot of questions. You have to be curious. You know, I was kind of a professional question asker and then ultimately a question answerer. And so I think it relates very well as I'm out and about, you know, a common question that I'll ask people is what's important to you? Or tell me about yourself. And the fun thing is, you know, I can get right to the point. I don't have to be, I don't have to be gentle about why it is that I'm asking the question. I can, and I can go straight to this is why this is important. And for me, that allows me to really learn about communities, learn about the challenges that people are facing. And frankly, I mean, just to sharpen.

Mary Louise Kelly (21:34)

This, forgive me jumping in, but I would imagine you had to work with a lot of difficult, unsavory people whose motives were not always clear to you, which I would further take a wild leap of imagination that that is an applicable skill set in Washington.

Abigail Spanberger (21:51)

I would say that generally speaking, that is an applicable skill set in Washington. I think that the way that you, in my old life, dealing with the difficult, unsavory people that at times I had to contend with or interesting characters at times along the way is you have to be really decisive and focused, but also not take yourself too seriously. You have to be ready for anything. And sometimes depending upon the area that I was working on or the type of meeting I was having, you know, sometimes I would be doing A reverse car pickup meeting. So somebody picked me up at a predetermined location, picked me up, and we'd sort of drive all around. And I'm debriefing this person sort of, you know, quickly in a car, getting straight to the point. And then other times, you'd be having these meetings where, you know, people wanted to talk and talk and talk and talk. And I wanted to sort of pepper questions here and there along the way. And so ultimately, I think that the focus and the yes. Ability to at times deal with very difficult people is something that I certainly have a good bit of practice with.

Mary Louise Kelly (23:07)

To stay with national security. And there is actually a Virginia angle to this. But I'm sure you followed the six Democratic lawmakers who recorded a video addressed to members of the military and the intelligence community. And the core message was, you can refuse illegal orders. President Trump responded on social media and called the video seditious behavior punishable by death. Your thoughts, Abigail Spanberger, on that message?

Abigail Spanberger (23:36)

I have so many thoughts on this. You know, a president who's focused on upholding the Constitution, defending the United States from all enemies, foreign, domestic, when seeing a video such as that, you know, would. Should be able to say, why would you need to do a video like that? There's never going to be any illegal orders. We uphold the Constitution. Right. The fact that he would see threat to his administration in reiterating what is instilled in every new military officer, what is ingrained in every onboarded intel officer, which is you have a responsibility to uphold the law. And I joined CIA in the days very shortly after the enhanced interrogation scandals broke. Right. Otherwise known as the torture scandal. And there were huge investigations. And I was not two weeks into my CIA career when they sat us all down and they talked about our responsibility as Americans and why we were moving past what was something that people in the room, other CIA employees were talking about as saying, this was a mistake, and this is why it doesn't make us safer. And this is why we are telling all of you that we are reaffirming to all of you that the CIA does not utilize nor do we participate in, nor do we facilitate torture by any name. And I think the fact that the president would take such great affront at former military members or former intelligence officers, restating what is taught to every new officer, every new enlisted service member like that you have a responsibility in that oath that you swore. The fact that he would take offense at them, repeating that is, I think, an indictment of how he views his responsibility. More than anything else, unfortunately.

Mary Louise Kelly (25:45)

And tragically, to make this specific to your new job, I said there was a Virginia angle. And it strikes me you're about to lead a state with a huge military population who will be among the ones getting orders? Who will be among the ones asking questions about the legality of, say, boat strikes off the coast of Venezuela. How are you thinking about advocating for them when you're governor? How are you thinking about supporting them and their families?

Abigail Spanberger (26:12)

Well, it's military members, it's also intelligence community members, you know, so many of whom call Virginia home. And this is where CIA headquarters in Virginia. That's right. Yeah, that's correct. In ensuring that as governor, I am continuing to, you know, I will swear a new oath when I'm sworn in as governor, but certainly my service to our country and the oath that I've sworn many times over to protect and defend the United States doesn't change. And so, you know, as the governor who will be overseeing a state, serving a state where so many service members return back home to ensuring that they know that they have the support of a governor who recognizes and honors the oath that they have sworn. And, you know, certainly there are nonprofit resources and there are anonymous legal resources for anyone who might have a question about the legality of an order they may receive or a situation that they may be put in in the workplace. Workplace. And so ensuring that people know that there are resources out there to help guide them as they work to uphold their oath every single day is essential. And that there's really no. I mean, my dad used to say all the time when we were kids, there's no higher calling than service to country. And that is true because the stakes are so high. And the obligation to do it right, the responsibility to abide your oath and your sense of duty, first and foremost, above self, above what is easy, above how you maintain your job, above how you get that next promotion, that is the most consequential thing. And frankly, it is what ensures that we are that example. And, you know, we've been stumbling recently as an example on the global stage, but it is why the world over, people have looked to the United States as a place that doesn't always get it right, but always endeavors to do better. And I think that that starts, you know, not as a overarching theory of the case, but it starts when people live that every single day.

Mary Louise Kelly (28:30)

Abigail Spanberger, Democrat, former member of Congress, former CIA officer and now governor elect of Virginia thank you.

Abigail Spanberger (28:40)

Thank you for having me.

Mary Louise Kelly (28:43)

And once again, we are off for the rest of the week. Back with another new episode next Monday the 29th. That'll be our last episode of 2025. This is a good time to say thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting this show this year. Thank you for your ratings and your reviews, your emails, those times you recommended the show to a friend. We look forward to being here with you in 2026. I'm Mary Louise Kel. Merry Christmas. See you next week on Sources and Methods for medpr.

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