Sources & Methods (NPR)

Episode: From CIA Officer to Governor: Abigail Spanberger on Intelligence and Politics
Air Date: December 22, 2025
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guest: Abigail Spanberger, Governor-elect of Virginia, former CIA officer, former U.S. Representative

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mary Louise Kelly sits down with Abigail Spanberger, the newly elected governor of Virginia and former CIA operations officer, to discuss the skills she brings from her intelligence background to politics, her vision for the state, the challenges and opportunities of Democratic messaging, and the ongoing importance of service to country. The conversation flows from Spanberger’s rationale for transitioning from Congress to state leadership, to reflections on gender and representation, to the witness and responsibilities inherent in intelligence and military service—especially in times of political division.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Transition from Congress to Governor

• Motivation for Running for Governor

  • Spanberger explains her decision not to seek a fourth term in Congress, emphasizing the urgency and tangible impact of state-level governance versus the slower processes of Washington:
    • [03:09] “If you want to address [issues] with a level of urgency that allows you to make change, make impact, strengthen public schools, work to bring communities together—frankly, so much of that work does happen at the state level. Watching my friends in the state legislature pass a bill...and by the summer, it's impacting people’s lives. It's pretty extraordinary.” —Abigail Spanberger

• Goals as Governor

  • Spanberger is focused on affordability, housing, healthcare, energy, and robust public schools:
    • [05:00] “What I'm working towards is delivering a Virginia that is ultimately more affordable...making progress on [the issues that matter most], and, frankly, also being honest with voters and with Virginians. We cannot fix every problem...But we need someone who’s relentless in bringing together members of our state legislature to pass bills that are going to move us in the right direction.” —Abigail Spanberger

The Democratic Party’s Message & Messaging

• Clarifying Party Identity

  • Spanberger addresses the ongoing challenge of defining what Democrats stand for, acknowledging room for improvement in messaging:
    • [06:36] “Whether people have figured it out or not doesn’t matter as much as whether the voters think we have...It’s up to every person in elected office to make clear what they are for. And I do think that there is a lot of room for improvement across the country, without question.” —Abigail Spanberger

• Party Relationship with Federal Government & Trump Administration

  • Spanberger stresses her commitment to working with the federal government when it serves Virginia, but is explicit about opposing detrimental policies:
    • [07:26] “I will also be very clear that anytime there’s policies that are hurting Virginians...I will stand up in defense of the people who elected me.” —Abigail Spanberger
  • On President Trump:
    • [08:05] “I haven’t seen him in quite some time...I have not had any positive things to say about the choices he’s made that have hurt small family farmers...attack on the federal workforce...trade and tariff policies...attack on health care...But if he wants to talk about how to lower costs, I’m happy to have that conversation.” —Abigail Spanberger

On Breaking Gender Barriers in Politics

• Being Virginia’s First Woman Governor

  • Spanberger reflects on the significance—and burden—of the “first woman” label:
    • [11:22] “It’s every bit of progress because every example of leadership and of what different styles can be, who can be in positions of leadership...the next generation sees is helpful.... I think we are much, much closer [to parity] and we get ever closer to having those very boring and very normal interviews that you look forward to having with just yet another woman governor.” —Abigail Spanberger

• Representation and Role Modeling for Girls

  • “I actually find it really, really heavy to think about. So I don’t spend that much time thinking about it...Then how do I ensure everything I do is setting a good example... But I do recognize the example and the permission structure.” —Abigail Spanberger [12:59]
  • Shares a story of a teenage girl expressing ambitions to be president after meeting her—highlighting the erosive power of stereotypes through lived example. [13:48]

Career as a CIA Operations Officer

• Motivation and Work at the CIA

  • Spanberger describes her path to and experiences in the CIA, always motivated by service:
    • [14:23] “I always, always wanted to serve at CIA...answer tough questions and help keep the American people safe and work in service to the country and have adventures.” —Abigail Spanberger
    • Details the delays in her hiring, her undercover status, and her focus on the agency’s operational side.

• Nature of the Work

  • [16:33] “I was a case officer...spotting, assessing, developing, recruiting people to commit espionage on behalf of the United States and then ultimately collect that information. It’s a role where you have to know the ins and outs of what’s known, what’s not known, what are the gaps...”
  • She worked on topics including nuclear programs, counterterrorism, and drug trafficking.
  • The honor of contributing intelligence all the way to the Presidential Daily Brief—and the importance of upholding U.S. standards in global leadership.

Transferable Skills: Intelligence to Politics

• People Skills

  • [20:32] “Well, I can talk to anyone. I think I have a very personal level of interest and curiosity about people...as a CIA officer, you gotta ask a lot of questions. You have to be curious. I was kind of a professional question-asker and then a question-answerer. It relates very well as I’m out and about.” —Abigail Spanberger

• Handling Difficult People

  • [21:51] “The way that you, in my old life, dealing with the difficult, unsavory people ... is you have to be really decisive and focused, but also not take yourself too seriously. You have to be ready for anything...At times deal with very difficult people is something that I certainly have a good bit of practice with.” —Abigail Spanberger

On Military and Intelligence Loyalty Amid Political Tension

• On the Democratic Lawmakers’ Video & Trump’s Reaction

  • Spanberger reacts strongly to Trump’s condemnation of a video in which lawmakers reminded military and intelligence personnel they can refuse illegal orders:
    • [23:36] “A president focused on upholding the Constitution...should be able to say, why would you need to do a video like that? There’s never going to be any illegal orders. We uphold the Constitution. The fact that he would see threat to his administration in reiterating what is instilled in every new military officer,...which is you have a responsibility to uphold the law...The fact that the president would take such offense...is, I think, an indictment of how he views his responsibility. More than anything else, unfortunately.” —Abigail Spanberger

• Responsibility to Service Members and Their Families

  • Pledge to military and IC communities in Virginia:
    • [26:12] “It’s military members, it’s also intelligence community members...so many of whom call Virginia home...ensuring that people know that there are resources out there to help guide them...My dad used to say all the time when we were kids, there’s no higher calling than service to country. And that is true because the stakes are so high. And the obligation to do it right, the responsibility to abide your oath and your sense of duty, first and foremost, above self, above what is easy, above how you maintain your job, above how you get that next promotion, that is the most consequential thing. And frankly, it is what ensures that we are that example....” —Abigail Spanberger

Notable Quotes

“If you want to address [issues] with a level of urgency that allows you to make change...so much of that work does happen at the state level.”
—Abigail Spanberger ([03:09])

“Whether people have figured it out or not doesn’t matter as much as whether the voters think we have...”
—Abigail Spanberger ([06:36])

“We are much, much closer [to parity in leadership] and we get ever closer to having those very boring and very normal interviews that you look forward to having with just yet another woman governor.”
—Abigail Spanberger ([11:22])

“I was a case officer...spotting, assessing, developing, recruiting people to commit espionage on behalf of the United States...”
—Abigail Spanberger ([16:33])

“You have a responsibility to uphold the law...The fact that [Trump] would take offense at [lawmakers] repeating that is...an indictment of how he views his responsibility.”
—Abigail Spanberger ([23:36])

“There’s no higher calling than service to country. And that is true because the stakes are so high.”
—Abigail Spanberger ([01:35], also cited at [26:51])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:35] Spanberger on family values and the call to service
• [03:09–04:17] Spanberger explains the urgency and impact possible at state level politics
• [04:43–06:18] Party identity, Democratic messaging, and policy focus
• [08:05–08:55] Relationship with Trump and federal-local tensions
• [10:56–12:59] Gender, representation, and the burden/blessing of being “the first”
• [14:18–16:23] Spanberger’s path to and work within the CIA
• [20:15–21:51] Transferable skills from espionage to politics; handling difficult personalities
• [23:36–26:12] Responding to recent debates over illegal orders, military/IC loyalty, and supporting Virginia’s service community

Memorable Moments

• Governor-elect Spanberger describes a Virginia grandfather-and-granddaughter duo bonding over her candidacy, highlighting changing generational perceptions of leadership. ([11:57])
• Spanberger’s anecdote about a teenage girl's aspiration to be president after meeting her—evidence of her “permission structure” argument for representation and role-modeling. ([13:16])
• Reflections on the internal reckoning at CIA after the torture scandals, and how these lessons in ethics and the rule of law persist for both intelligence professionals and elected officials. ([24:15])
• Spanberger’s explicit, unvarnished rejection of political expediency in favor of upholding constitutional oaths and supporting those who serve.

Tone & Style

Spanberger’s tone is direct, pragmatic, and consistently focused on practical service, integrity, and ethical leadership. Kelly’s style is probing, candid, yet warm, drawing out personal stories while connecting them to the national political landscape.

Conclusion

Abigail Spanberger’s journey from CIA operations to Congress and now the governorship of Virginia reflects a consistent through-line of public service rooted in practical problem-solving and ethical obligations. This conversation illuminates the transferable skills between intelligence and politics, the continuing challenges of Democratic messaging, the importance of representation for women in leadership, and the urgent responsibility to support, defend, and model constitutional norms for both citizens and public servants.