Hormuz blockade / Trump’s mixed messages / Who is Jay Clayton?

Summary

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Sources & Methods – Episode Summary

Podcast: Sources & Methods (NPR)
Episode Title: Hormuz blockade / Trump’s mixed messages / Who is Jay Clayton?
Date: July 16, 2026
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guests: Tom Bowman, Greg Myre

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Overview

This episode centers on America’s ongoing conflict with Iran, most notably the closure and military tensions in the Strait of Hormuz. The discussion unpacks the shifting US strategies under President Trump, the persistent difficulties of military engagement in the region, and the challenge of deciphering Iran's objectives and internal power structure. Additionally, the episode features analysis of Jay Clayton’s contentious nomination for Director of National Intelligence (DNI) and a look at how technology and the “human element” are changing the face of modern warfare.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Strait of Hormuz Crisis

• Escalation: The US has resumed heavy bombing along the Iranian coast and struck islands in the Strait of Hormuz, notably Great Atom Island, aiming to reduce Iran's threat to shipping.

  • [02:00] Tom Bowman: “They’re increasing the bombings... The goal…is to decrease the threat to shipping from drones and missiles and fast boats, but particularly the drones.”

• Limited Effectiveness: Despite new US routes, many ships continue to favor the northern (Iranian) side of the strait; threats to shipping persist.

  • [02:53] Mary Louise Kelly: “How close is the US to achieving that, to actually controlling the strait?”
  • [02:59] Tom Bowman: “There are thousands of drones and missiles and fast boats, so it’s going to be really tough…”

• Attrition, Not Resolution: The conflict has shifted to a war of attrition, with both sides aiming to outlast each other economically and militarily.

  • [05:15] Greg Myre: “By its definition, a war of attrition means it’s going to last for a long period. And the goal is to see who will cry uncle first...”

2. Trump’s Mixed Messages and Policy Fluctuations

• Flip-Flop on Tolls: The US moved from defending open navigation to proposing—and quickly rescinding—a 20% transit fee on the Strait.

  • [06:07] Mary Louise Kelly: “That’s the way it is. Right up until Monday when President Trump said... the US [will impose] a 20% fee on cargo ships.”
  • [06:53] Greg Myre: “This sounds half-baked at best… Trump, out of the blue, talks about a 20% tariff… got trolled by Iran’s foreign minister who said, ‘We would be much fairer.’”

• Changing War Aims: Trump claimed all US objectives in Iran had been achieved, including nuclear and military goals, conflicting with ongoing operations.

  • [08:53] Donald Trump (clip): “I think they’re completed now… If we left right now, it would take them 20 years to rebuild.”
  • [09:26] Greg Myre: “Just objectively, the objectives have not been completed. The same kind of Iranian regime remains in place… So to claim that these objectives have been completed… just doesn’t stack with what we’re seeing.”

3. Understanding Iran’s Goals and Leadership Fractures

• Limited Transparency: Iran’s objectives remain partially opaque, but include economic stabilization via open oil routes, codifying influence over the Strait, and seeking security guarantees—especially from further US or Israeli attack.

  • [12:07] Greg Myre: “Obviously, they want oil revenue... They want to codify [influence over the Strait] and a guarantee of no future attack by the US or Israel.”

• IRGC Power Increase: Targeted strikes may have wounded top leaders, increasing the Revolutionary Guard's influence and complicating diplomatic efforts.

  • [13:35] Tom Bowman: “[The] Revolutionary Guard are in a much bigger position, tougher position, stronger position than they’ve ever been.”

• Internal Divisions: Contradictory signals emerge from Iran’s diverse power centers—the IRGC, Foreign Ministry, and others—while external observers struggle to determine who truly leads.

  • [15:20] Greg Myre: “There are lots of different power centers in Iran... figuring out exactly who’s in charge, who’s calling the shots.”

• Condoleezza Rice’s Perspective: The US shouldn’t pursue another nuclear deal, as Iran is far from having a bomb and internal divisions are deepening.

  • [17:21] Condoleezza Rice: “I would not buy a nuclear agreement under any circumstances. I just let them sit there and stew in their lousy economy... deep splits in the Iranian government.”

4. The Persistent Challenge of Ending American Wars

• Historical Pattern: The US keeps entering prolonged wars in the Middle East, shaped by overambitious goals and limited means, with parallels to Afghanistan and Iraq.
  • [20:13] Greg Myre: "The US has been at war for more than 20 of the past 25 years... overwhelming US firepower would turn these into quick victories. And that just didn’t happen."
  • [21:11] Doug Lute (via Myre): “…you don’t have any prospect for success unless you’re just lucky. And being lucky is not the place to start a military campaign.”

5. Jay Clayton’s Confirmation as Director of National Intelligence

• Contentious Hearing: Clayton avoided directly stating who won the 2020 election, frustrating senators and highlighting the political polarization around intelligence roles.

  • [24:27] Jon Ossoff: “Who won the 2020 election?”
  • [24:29] Greg Myre (as Clayton): "I'm not going to get into that with you."
  • [24:42] Jon Ossoff: "We’re going to keep doing it because you’re not being honest and forthright."

• Qualifications Questioned: Clayton lacks direct intelligence experience, bringing instead prosecutorial and administrative credentials.

  • [25:18] Mary Louise Kelly: “Another point, he has no intelligence experience. Does that appear to pose a barrier…?”
  • [25:37] Greg Myre: “He’s a recipient, not a practitioner of the intelligence community.”

• Shrinking the DNI: Republican leaders advocate for a much smaller ODNI, pushing for reduced staff and influence.

  • [26:51] Greg Myre: “He [Tom Cotton] said… the office… should be dozens of people… not thousands.”

6. OSINT (Open Source Intelligence) Segment – Memorable Moments

• New Drone Warfare: The US deployed a Texas-made sea drone for strikes in Hormuz, drawing connections to earlier Ukrainian tactics.

  • [28:07] Tom Bowman: “For the first time, the US used a sea drone, a 24 foot long sea drone... not the first time ever... Ukrainians used sea drones to attack the Russian fleet in the Black Sea.”

• Ukraine’s Drone Leadership Crisis: Ukraine replaced its popular, innovative Defense Minister Mykhailo Fedorov—the so-called “drone wizard”—sparking protests and uncertainty about continued technological momentum.

  • [28:50] Greg Myre: “He [Fedorov] became the defense minister six months ago at the age of 35... now replaced... that sparked big protests in Kyiv today.”

• The Enduring Human Element in War: Panel at Aspen Security Forum featuring Medal of Honor recipient Will Swenson reminds listeners that courage and human leadership remain vital in war, regardless of technological advances.

  • [33:53] Will Swenson: “...if we don’t think that there’s still a human element in war, we’re very wrong.”
  • [34:18] Mary Louise Kelly: “...such a reminder of leadership and... that there are amazing things that drones can do and also things in combat that a drone will never be able to do.”

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Strategy:
  • [05:15] Greg Myre: “By its definition, a war of attrition means it’s going to last for a long period. And the goal is to see who will cry uncle first...”
• On Trump’s Policy Flips:
  • [06:53] Greg Myre: “This sounds half-baked at best. You know, just really off the cuff.”
• On Iran’s Objectives:
  • [12:07] Greg Myre: “They clearly love this idea that they have some level of control over the Strait of Hormuz and want to codify that and make it a permanent condition.”
• On the Human Element in War:
  • [33:53] Will Swenson: “If we don’t think that there’s still a human element in war, we’re very wrong.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Hormuz conflict update: 00:24 – 10:34
• Changing US objectives & Iran policy: 05:35 – 10:34
• Iran’s goals & internal fractures: 12:07 – 16:51
• Condoleezza Rice on nuclear diplomacy: 17:21 – 18:19
• Patterns in US wars (Doug Lute): 20:13 – 22:07
• Jay Clayton DNI hearing: 23:35 – 27:52
• OSINT/technology in war: 28:07 – 34:34
• Medal of Honor reflections: 32:44 – 34:34

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Tone & Language

The episode maintains NPR’s classic blend of analytical clarity, world-weary humor (e.g., “It’s Groundhog Day”), and frank skepticism about official rhetoric—balancing field expertise with occasional dry wit.

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In Summary

This episode of Sources & Methods offers a deep dive into the entrenched US-Iran standoff at the Strait of Hormuz, President Trump’s unpredictable policy switches, and the enduring challenge of translating overwhelming military power into lasting victories. In both the geopolitics of the Middle East and America’s domestic intelligence wars, personalities, perceptions, and technological innovations continue to shape—often more than clarify—the outcomes. The final segment reminds listeners that despite new gadgets and evolving doctrines, war’s most profound realities remain stubbornly, hauntingly human.

Transcript

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[Greg Myre]

The goal is to see who will cry uncle first, who will face the most economic pain and be willing to make some concessions.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Once again, the world's attention is on the Strait of Hormuz, with the US And Iran resuming strike. Is there any way to end this conflict? This is Sources and methods from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Today is July 16, Thursday, sources and methods Day, the day we talk through the week's biggest national security stories with NPR reporters out covering them. I am back in Aspen this week, moderating at the Aspen Security Forum. It's a big annual gathering of diplomats and military officers, NATO types this year, a whole lot of AI and tech entrepreneurs. Meanwhile, over in D.C. nPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman and national security correspondent Greg Myrey. The OG Sources and Methods crew. Hello from the Rockies, you two.

[Tom Bowman]

Good to be here.

[Greg Myre]

Hi, Mayor Louise.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Let me timestamp this. It is 10am for me, which means it is 12 noon for y' all in D.C. and as we speak, the U.S. and Iran have exchanged fire all week. The the U.S. has reinstated its blockade on Iran. The Strait of Hormuz is closed again. As our executive producer Courtney Dorning put it this morning, the Iran war continues to continue. Tom, you and I had a little bit of a running joke. It feels like no matter how hard we try to change the subject, talk about anything besides the Strait of Hormuz, we end up talking about the Strait of Hormuz. Here we are again. It feels a little different this time, to me at least. How about you?

[Tom Bowman]

No, I think it is a little different. They're increasing the bombings, the US Bombings of the areas along the coast of the Strait of Hormuz, Bandar El Abbas. They hit this small island called Great Atom just last night, taking over.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I had to pull that up on a map.

[Tom Bowman]

Yeah, you and me were I was

[Mary Louise Kelly]

not familiar with greater. And there's a Lesser Tuum as well.

[Tom Bowman]

That's right. So cruise missiles, radar sites, and it's smack dab in the middle of the Strait of Hormuz with the lesser traffic, Tub island as well. So they're increasing the number of attacks. What they're trying to do is decrease the threat to shipping from drones and missiles and fast boats and so forth, but particularly the drones. Those have been the ones attacking commercial ships. Right. So that's the goal of the administration to increase the bombing along those areas to make sure the ships can come through without a problem. Right.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

You said that's the goal of the administration. How close is the US to achieving that, to actually controlling the strait?

[Tom Bowman]

Well, there are thousands of drones and missiles and fast boats, so it's going to be really tough to do that. Some people think you can't accomplish that. The other thing is the strait isn't really closed, but they're like teens or low twenties of ships going through the strait now. And many of them by the way, are going along the Iran route as opposed to the area that's pathway set up by the US along the southern route of Oman. So.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So hugging the northern side of the strait as opposed to the lower.

[Tom Bowman]

Correct.

[Greg Myre]

Right.

[Tom Bowman]

So that's where we are now. Now President Trump said we're going to increase the bombing to the mainland of Iran next week if these guys don't come back to the table. He's talking about power plants and bridges and so forth. That raises the issue of violating international law. Now if it's a dual use facility, you can maybe take it out. Some lawyers would say it's okay. If it's a civilian infrastructure, you are running afoul of international law. Could be a war crime. So that's what the President has thr. He's made many threats over these past few months to remember, extinguish the civilization of Iran. So we'll see if this does increase the bombing on the mainland itself. So that's kind of where we are. You know, it's Groundhog Day.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Is it Groundhog Day though. And Greg, I'll throw this to you. I think what feels a little different to me this time is acceptance that we are settling in for the long this war which we were originally told would be a matter of weeks, like four to six weeks. We're now four. Coming up on five months into it.

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, I mean, I think this latest strategy, if you want to call it that, is really one of attrition that trumps tried a major bombing campaign for about five weeks that wasn't achieving what he'd hoped. So then there was the ceasefire and we got to this memorandum of understanding. So we saw this period of negotiation for two, two and a half months or so and now this third stage of somewhere in between. Not a full scale bombing operation at this point, but the negotiations have more or less broken down. So it's sort of attrition.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And the ceasefire appears to have just

[Greg Myre]

what disintegrated kind of vanished into the hot, humid air of the Middle East. But by its definition, a war of attrition means it's going to last for a long period. And the goal is to see who will cry uncle for first, who will face the most economic pain and be willing to make some concessions.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So let's talk about policy flip flops on this war and about President Trump's habit of saying one thing and then doubling back and reversing himself. This week, Exhibit A was tolls. The Trump administration had been saying for a while no country could impose transit fees in the street. Here's Marco Rubio, Secretary of State last month.

[Greg Myre]

No country is allowed to charge tolls

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or fees on an international waterway. That's existing international law.

[Greg Myre]

That's the way it is.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

That's the way it is. Right up until Monday when President Trump said, never mind, not only can we have tolls, but it's going to be the US imposing one charging a 20% fee on cargo ships. That was Monday. And then by this Tuesday, he had changed his mind.

[Donald Trump]

So I put it out yesterday. I thought it was good. I was called by different people, different countries, kings and amirs, and all of the people that we all know and we all love. And they've been, frankly, they've been very strong partners. And they said, we'd love to do it a different way. We'd love to.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Greg, pick up there. We'd love to do it a different way. The president is nodding to what he says are deals that are going to make up the money that the US should be getting if it were charging tolls, which it's now not going to do. Is that real?

[Greg Myre]

I mean, this sounds half baked at best. You know, just really off the cuff. St. Rubio clip you played reflected a position that the US has had since its very founding, this notion of the freedom of navigation, a principle the US has always upheld and in fact, been a world leader. And then Trump, out of the blue, talks about a 20% tariff. He then got trolled by, I believe it was Iran's foreign minister who said we would be much fairer. And allegedly, the Iranians have only been talking about charging 1% or so instead of 20%. So this just doesn't seem like a plan that's been thought through. And then Trump, as he backtracked or at least changed directions, talked about big investments from these wealthy Gulf countries, which they've already done in the past, whether it's Saudi Arabia talking about major investments or Qatar gifting a plane to the President. Or other investments. So, yeah, that could happen, but still doesn't solve the problem, problem of opening the strait fully and getting back to 100 plus ships a day going through the strait. So the problem is not getting an agreement between the US and the Gulf states, it's getting an agreement between the US And Iran.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

One more thread of Iran policy that has shifted. If we recall back when this war began in February, our understanding was that a goal, a major goal, was stopping Iran from getting a nuclear weapon this week. On Tuesday, the president told Trey Yingst of Fox News the goals of this war have been achieved.

[Greg Myre]

So your objectives are to ensure that Iran never has a nuclear weapon, to keep the strait open and to degrade the Iranian military. Can those objectives be completed in an air campaign alone or does this require a ground component?

[Donald Trump]

Well, I think they're completed now. Honestly, if we left right now, it would take them 20 years to rebuild what they have. The only way you can negotiate with these people is through strength. And the only strength is military strength. And that's what we've done. And I mean, literally two days ago we had a deal and then they broke it at the last moment. They broke it.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Greg, this one to you. I'm just trying to figure out the basic question. If the objectives, US Objectives for this war have been completed, why are we still bombing them every day?

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, very fair question. And I think just objectively, the objectives have not been completed. The same kind of Iranian regime remains in place even if the faces have changed. The nuclear program still exists, although it has been set back with attacks last year and perhaps some more this year, Iran can still clearly carry out missile and drone attacks, as Tom outlined earlier. So yes, the US has certainly achieved some military success, degraded Iran in certain ways, weakened its economy, but by no means could the US Just walk away right now. And again, problem one is the Strait of Hormuz, but these other things exist as well. It certainly seems that Iran would be capable of rebuilding on the military capacities that it has left, that the regime still seems firmly in place and is pursuing the same sorts of goals. So to claim that these objectives have been completed and the US could somehow just end it today just doesn't stack with what we're seeing, hearing and getting out of Iran.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Time for a quick break. When we come back, what we know about Iran's goals. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

We're back. Greg Myhre, do we know what Iran wants? Do we know when Iran's objectives will be completed?

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, that's really an important question. And I think we have a limited visibility. The Iranian media doesn't say a lot. We get limited statements from the Iranian leaders themselves. And so it's hard to say exactly what they do want. Now, I think we can point to a couple things that are of interest. Obviously, they want oil revenue. So Iran has a real stake in reopening the Strait of Hormuz because oil is so critical to their economy, which is in such bad shape. Second, they clearly love this idea that they have some level of control over the Strait of Hormuz and want to codify that and make it a permanent condition. So I think that is a second thing that's very important to them. And I think the third is really a guarantee of no future attack by the US Or Israel. They've been hit very hard the last two years, have very limited defenses against those strikes. Its air defenses are essentially gone. So they don't trust the Trump administration or Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli leader. But they want something that can kind of guarantee or restrict the attack so that every six months or a year, the US Or Israel can't come and just pound Iran whenever it feels like it wants to.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Fascinating to think what a security guarantee would even look like, or if the next administration, whether it's in the US Or Israel, would abide by what the

[Tom Bowman]

predecessor had agreed I don't think Israel ever would. Let's face it. Number one, I was talking to Alan Eyre. He's a Middle east analyst. He took part in the Obama administration's nuclear deal with Iran. And he gave me this great Persian proverb, if you can't cut a hand, you must kiss it. Basically, if you can't destroy your adversary, you're going to have to negotiate, you're going to have to come to the table. And what his point was, the US should just pull out and let the Gulf countries with Iran, with Oman, basically come up with some sort of a deal. How do you manage the Strait of Hormuz, let you guys figure it out and do it? That may be where we're heading now because Iran does not trust the U.S. right. And the U.S. has bombed their leadership. Mojtava Khamenei, he's not been seen. He's supposedly seriously wounded. Some members of his family have been killed. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard are in much bigger position, tougher position, stronger position than they've ever been. So that's.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Is that part of the challenge here, that if you're trying to figure out how to do diplomacy, how to reach a deal, you want to understand what your adversary actually wants. And part of the challenge is it's unclear who is running the show, who is the final decision maker in Iran right now.

[Tom Bowman]

Right. You're talking to analysts. They say, again, the Revolutionary Guard is in a stronger position than ever, so they're going to have a tougher stance with the U.S. but again, you know, a security guarantee will never attack you. It's never going to happen.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Greg, did you want to jump in on the internal divisions in Iran?

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, sure. You know, when I was just in the region, I was in Israel for a month and all our NPR colleagues in the region are scattered far and wide there. We have this sort of internal chat, almost like an internal Twitter or X, that might end up with a couple hundred items a day that are coming through. And these are statements in the Iranian media made by officials, analysts in the region, region, talking about things. And so, number one, you do get a sense of what's on the mind of important Iranian officials and what they're thinking. You do see some of the contradictions. The Revolutionary Guard Corps may be issuing a hard line statement talking about the kinds of attacks they're preparing to carry out. You may hear something from Iran's Foreign Ministry that it's willing to discuss certain issues. So, yes, there are lots of different power centers in Iran. There always have been and that's always been and one of the tricks is figuring out exactly who's in charge, who's calling the shots. And obviously you do have a supreme leader. You have had one. And now as we noted, his exact status and physical well being is unknown. So it's making it harder and harder to do that, especially when there's a limited Western diplomatic corps, Western media presence and Iran's media is so restricted. But yeah, there's absolutely multiple streams of thought coursing through Iran.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I'll inject one more voice into this part of our conversation, which is from here in Aspen this week. Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, of course, was secretary of State in the George W. Bush administration. She weighed in on this subject of internal divisions in Iran and also on what she thinks the US could and should offer Iran in any future talks. And to put it mildly, she does not think that that offer should include a nuclear deal.

[Condoleezza Rice]

I would not buy a nuclear agreement under any circumstances. I just let them sit there and stew in their lousy economy where most of their A level nuclear scientists have been killed, where I believe there are deep splits in the Iranian government. You're seeing it. If somebody makes a deal, then the IRGC fires on something and let's just see what happens because I am quite confident it's going to be a long time before they can actually build a usable nuclear weapon. Part of that is because you have to actually get 60% to 93%. That takes spinning in centrifuges. Centrifuges break if you look at them,

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Greg, she said a number of things there. Some of them are hard to fact check. But her point is she's arguing Iran isn't close to building a nuclear weapon. Most of their top scientists have been killed. So let's not reward them for not building a nuclear weapon when they couldn't build one anyway. Maybe there's a little bit of time there. Fact check that.

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, that's quite possible. The details of Iran's nuclear program have always been hard to check, although there was an agreement that allowed inspectors to be in there. We've certainly learned in the past year that the US And Israel could bomb those facilities and set them back at some level, perhaps temporarily, temporarily, perhaps long term. So I think the prospect that Iran could race to a bomb has certainly been put back and we don't know that timeframe, but it's a guessing game. And there's also Iran's will. I mean, Iran seemed to go for years and years to go toward the threshold of a nuclear weapon but not crossing it and building it? You know, would it race in the future to try to go ahead and actually build it, seeing that as a deterrent, that in some way, in some sense, Iran has gotten the worst of both worlds. It's drawn all this attention and anger and attacks from the US and Israel because it had a very active nuclear program, yet it hasn't had a nuclear weapon that might deter these attacks. So, you know, you think maybe in the future they would consider going one way or the other either really limiting a nuclear program or getting rid of it or building a bomb. So I think there's a lot of uncertainty. There's so the scenario she laid out is plausible, but I would stress that that's only one of multiple scenarios.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

One more question to bring this Iran portion of our conversation toward a close. And it has to do with some reporting, Greg, that you brought to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED this week on how past American presidents have struggled to end the wars that they started. And you were raising the question, are we seeing the pattern, repeat? Are we seeing the pattern repeat?

[Greg Myre]

Boy, it certainly seems like it in many ways. Of course, the other wars that we've had over the past quarter century in Afghanistan and Iraq lasted for 20 years and 15 years or so. So we're not nearly there in terms of Iran. But Mayor LOUISE it was just extraordinary as I sat down and thought about this, the US has been at war for more than 20 of the past 25 years in these three major wars, countries in the same region. That's never happened in US history. In 250 years of US history, we've never had that much war in such a compact period of time in the same region. And not only is it an unprecedented war, but as you noted, they just haven't gone according to plan. Every time the thought was overwhelming US firepower would turn these into quick victories. And that just didn't happen. And so I was speaking to Doug Lute. He's a retired army lieutenant general and he served as the so called war czar, coordinating the efforts in both Iraq and Afghanistan under Presidents Bush and Obama. And he said the US repeatedly struggled trying to align its resources and its goals in those wars. And he says he sees it happening again in Iran when we launch only a bombing campaign, but we retain maximalist goals like regime change, you don't have any prospect for success unless you're just lucky. And being lucky is not the place to start a military campaign. And I'll just add, he's not advocating using ground troops going further. He's a critic of the way this war is being handled overall, but he's just saying you have to align the resources you're putting into that war with your goals. And you can't have maximalist goals, as he said, and then limited means to achieve it.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Time for another break. When we're back, we're going to shift gears a little bit and look at what the nominee for DNI told Congress. Plus OSINT open source intelligence. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

We're back with Tom Bowman and Greg Myhrey. And Greg Jay Clayton was on Capitol Hill this week for a confirmation hearing, his confirmation hearing. He is nominated to serve as the president's director of National Intelligence. How'd the hearing go?

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, well, it became pretty confrontational pretty quickly. Not a surprise there. Several Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee just asked him straight up who won the 2020 election. And Clayton started off by saying he's not an election denier, that Biden was certified, but he wouldn't say outright that Biden won the election. Now, this went round and round with several senators. And then there was a very sharp exchange with with Georgia Democrat Jon Ossoff, who just kept blistering him with question

[Jon Ossoff]

after question, who won the 2020 election?

[Greg Myre]

Like I said, I'm not. I'm not going to get into that with you.

[Jon Ossoff]

But you do have an obligation to be honest and forthright with the committee.

[Greg Myre]

Is anything that I just said not honest or forthright?

[Jon Ossoff]

Yes, you're not being honest or forthright. Who won the 20 election?

[Greg Myre]

I think I've answered the question. We can keep doing this.

[Jon Ossoff]

Well, we're going to keep doing it because you're not being honest and forthright.

[Greg Myre]

I'm not going to engage in the theater. It became a very sharp exchange and showed just where we are. Clayton has a pretty good reputation. He's had some high profile jobs. Even Mark Warner, the ranking Democrat on the committee, said he'd worked with Clayton previously and said he was highly professional. But he said this job is different. You're overseeing the entire intelligence community and by law you're supposed to have extensive intelligence experience and you're supposed to be able to say no to the president.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Sounds like to sum up his testimony, he says he's not an election denier. He was not an election confirmer either, at least in this confirmation hearing. Another point, he has no intelligence experience. Does that appear to pose a barrier to his running U.S. intelligence?

[Greg Myre]

Well, not entirely. You know, we have had people that didn't have that background. Clayton described himself as someone who's worked with the intelligence community very closely. For example, he is the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York. He prosecutes a lot of high profile cases. He cited the former Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro. He's in charge of that case. So he said in instances like that, he's a recipient of intelligence. He's working with the FBI and other intelligence and national security agencies. So he has had that background, but it is at a remove. He's a recipient, not a practitioner of the intelligence community.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And just to step back and ask about the relevance or centrality of the DNI job in this moment, I mean, it was created to bash heads, get all the US Spy agencies to talk to each other, share what they know, try to prevent another intelligence fiasco like the 911 attacks. But it has been controversial from the day it was created. It is controversial now. And there's been a lot of chatter about layoffs and about shrinking its actual influence and literal size.

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, we heard that yesterday. Tom Cotton, the Arkansas Republican who heads the Senate Intelligence Committee, he said, seemingly seriously to Clayton, you've run some pretty big government agencies and organizations now. I hope you'll run a smaller one. And he said that he would thought that the office for the Director of National Intelligence should be dozens of people Maybe a couple hundred, but not, not thousands. And as government bureaucracies tend to do, they keep getting larger and larger. And it doesn't do its own investigations or operations. It's designed to coordinate the activity of all 18 intelligence agencies. So this has been an ongoing debate since it was formed more than two decades ago. And it's become even a little bit sharper in this administration because the Trump administration has wanted to, to scale back government across the board, not just in the intelligence community.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I'm having a Doge flashback on that note. We will end, as we always do, with Osint open source intelligence, the not so secret yet telling details we have stumbled across in our reporting. Tom Bowman, you first.

[Tom Bowman]

Okay. Strait of Hormuz, we've been talking about that for weeks now. And there were intense bombings by the US on Iran. And for the first time, the US used a sea drone, a 24 foot long sea drone made by a company in Texas to attack some of these Iranian locations. But it was not the first time ever a sea drone has been used. Three years ago, the Ukrainians used sea drones to attack the Russian fleet in the Black Sea.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I remember.

[Tom Bowman]

And one of the sea drones is named C Baby.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Sea Baby.

[Tom Bowman]

How great is that? An aggressive baby, but.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

All right, Greg, can you top it?

[Greg Myre]

Sure. I want to talk about something that's related and playing out as we speak. And it's about Ukraine's defense minister, the guy who's really been behind a lot of the drone advances there. It's a guy named Mykhailo fedorov. He's just 35 years old. He really came to prominence even before the Russian invasion as the tech wizard of Ukraine of digital technology. And he created apps that you can use to do almost everything in Ukraine to do all kinds of government services. And he was the guy really pushing the drone campaign at the beginning of the war and said Ukraine, if it was going to fight off Russia was going to have to do it with technology and innovation. It couldn't match them in terms of troop numbers. He became the defense minister six months ago at the age of 35. And he, he's seen as driving this continually evolving and very innovative drone campaign that is causing the Russians all kinds of headaches. He's very, very popular. And Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, just replaced him. And that sparked big protests in Kyiv today and a lot of outrage, it seems, in Ukraine.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Has Zelenskyy given a reason? If he's this immensely popular wunderkind drone

[Greg Myre]

wizard, why put you Matt Yeah, he really hasn't. And the kind of reporting we're seeing there is that friction between Fedorov and the older parts of the defense establishment. And some say it's also because the money that has been going to some of the big defense related industries there might have been redirected. And so people were upset about that. And Zelenskyy has reshuffled his government at various times, but it seems like he's doing something that may be A, very unpopular but B, also removing somebody who's been seen as very effective and integral to Ukraine's recent advances, not only in drones, but just on the battlefield overall.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Just to note things happening in Kyiv today, I saw Keir Starmer, British Prime Minister Keir Starmer is spending his last day as British Prime Minister in Kyiv. We've talked on this podcast about the strong relationship between Starmer and Zelensky. And I found it really fascinating that he would choose to spend his last full day in office. I guess Downing street is not a happy place for him these days. So he's fled to Ukraine and they are holding talks today. Okay, you two have teed me up perfectly for my Osint because we talk all the time, as you two just did, about drones and AI and how tech is changing the way that wars are fought. And it was with that context in mind that I sat listening to a panel here in Aspen this week that was titled the Human Element of Military Service Across Generations. And this panel truly was across generations. There was a retired army colonel who served in Vietnam. There was a very young Navy seal, two Medal of Honor recipients among the three people on this panel, which as you know, Tom, is a big deal. There are only 65 living recipients of the Medal of Honor. It is the US Military's highest honor. One of them who was on this panel is a guy you have actually reported on years ago, Tom. This is retired Army Lt. Col. Will Swenson. President Obama awarded him the Medal of Honor for his actions in combat in Afghanistan back in 2009. Swenson ran into enemy fire again and again to reach his fellow soldiers.

[Tom Bowman]

Their stories are amazing.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

When you read what they was treating their wounds in the field, trying to carry them out. We watched a little snippet of video from that battle for which he was awarded the medal. It was captured on body cam from the helicopter medics who'd come in to try to help with evacuations. And you could see Swenson helping to carry a wounded Sergeant First Class Kenneth Westbrook trying to carry him onto a helicopter to evacuate him out. And the video, as you can imagine, is chaotic and it is grainy. Westbrook, the injured sergeant, keeps insisting, no, let me out. I want to jump out. I want to keep fighting the Taliban. Don't take me out. Here's Colonel Swinson on the panel yesterday describing them all.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

And the next thing was I stuffed him in the helicopter because he tried to get out again. This is something that's important, though, I think, because if you think about how we think that warfare is changing, that AI, that drones, that autonomous systems, that these exquisite weapons systems and platforms that gives us depth from our enemy and distance, if we don't think that there's still a human element in war, we're very wrong.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And I'll note on the video, you can see Swinson leaned out and kiss his fellow wounded soldier on the forehead and then send him home. And it was so powerful. It was such a reminder of leadership and such a reminder to me that there are amazing things that drones can do and also things in combat that a drone will never be able to do.

[Tom Bowman]

Absolutely. You know, reminded me of a time I was in Afghanistan. We came upon this Stryker vehicle that hit a roadside bomb, blew up, killed a couple of guys. And the soldiers were putting their comrade in a body bag and he leaned over, put his hand on it and said, God bless you, brother.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Awful and beautiful moments at the very same time. That's NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman and NPR national security correspondent Greg Myhray. Thanks to you both.

[Tom Bowman]

You're welcome.

[Greg Myre]

Thank you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And before we go, a thank you as well to our NPR supporters who get to hear every episode free of sponsor messages. NPR listeners also have access to our complete archive and they get perks for a lot of other great NPR shows, shows like the NPR Politics Podcast and Consider this. And up first, if you're not a supporter yet, it is super easy to sign up and explore all the benefits. You can go to plus.NPR.org that's it for today's episode. Thank you for listening. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. We are back next week with another episode of Sources and Methods from npr.

[Condoleezza Rice]

The last phase of the World cup is underway, and the NPR network has been there since the first whistle.

[Tom Bowman]

Cape Verde is a small African island

[Greg Myre]

nation that surprised everyone by making it to the world.

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Ronaldo did something no man or woman has done before.

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He scored goals in six, six different

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World Cups for a total of 10.

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As we enter the final matches of the tournament, head to the NPR app for all things World cup from the NPR Network.

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This season on Planet Money Summer School, we're going on a world tour. And first up, we're following the money down under from Australia's market where people buy and sell water, to how New Zealand is changing the way central banks fight inflation. Pack your bags and come along as we learn from the rest of the world. World Planet Money Summer School. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.