Mary Louise Kelly (2:35)

Fewer tiaras, but same basic principle.

Lawrence Quill (2:37)

Yeah, just so many logistics and all these people in one targeted spot It's a security nightmare. And a security. No, no. But on a more serious note, I mean, these are, and I'll quote from a Pentagon official sent me a signal message, exasperated, saying, these are not support people. They're commanders of sub fleets and commanders of tank corps. They're maybe commanders from Djibouti working ops. Maybe they are supporting American allies in Ukraine and Gaza. They are war fighters. They're pulled from jobs directly protecting America and its allies. The source goes on. You know, if China had done something in this moment, our response time would have been glacial.

Mary Louise Kelly (3:21)

So all kinds of implications for this. Let's go to the why Hegseth was basically there to roll out some new policies or maybe more precisely, roll back a bunch of policies. Just give us the laundry list.

Lawrence Quill (3:34)

Well, I mean, essentially these hundreds of admirals and generals get into this auditorium and mostly what they got was a live version of Pete Hegseth's book, War on Warriors. The and a lecture on war fighting.

Mary Louise Kelly (3:51)

Stop there for a second. When you say this was like Hegseth's book that these generals were listening to explain. What do you mean?

Lawrence Quill (3:59)

Yeah, I mean before Secretary Hegseth took office, he was a Fox News personality and of course he served in the National Guard and he deployed. But he wrote a book called the War on the warriors. And the point is that he believes that the military went too, woke up too much diversity, that somehow this lowered standards. The military has been forced by foolish and reckless politicians to focus on the wrong things. In many ways, this speech is about fixing decades of decay. It's kind of an age old point of view that somehow the military lost recent wars because it had a hand tied behind its back that wasn't fighting hard enough. It was prevented from killing enemies because of concerns about human rights or civilian casualties. And Hegseth spent a lot of time talking about a bunch of changes on grooming, on physical fitness requirements, that even those generals should be doing physical training every day, on rolling back of whistleblower protections, rules about whether you can put your hands on recruits in basic training, which is something the military abandoned a long time ago because it's not effective to slap people around.

Mary Louise Kelly (5:13)

Also on women in combat, which was, which was a big one. And I want to ask because I know you covered Quill, you covered the military. You've been embedded in Iraq, in Afghanistan. You saw some of the policies that Hegseth wants to roll back in place. You also were there when some of these policies were put into place. Women in combat. Again, what was the argument in favor of all of these policies that the Pentagon now wants to do away with.

Lawrence Quill (5:40)

Yeah, what I loved about embedding was that just all the bs, all the politics falls away. And these were people who were just trying to complete a mission and they didn't care how it got done. And that's how they came around to the idea of just getting the most talented people on their team. And they started to realize that a lot of those talented people were women. The people who were trying to get this job done, life or death, downrange, didn't care who it was who had the talent. And so they just started bringing women in first on these things called female engagement teams, but eventually integrating them into particularly Special Forces units because they had skills. And one thing that Hegseth kept repeating or implying during his speech was that somehow the standards had been lowered. And that's just not true. There was always a gender neutral standard. And if you could make the cut, if you could get through Ranger school, you're a Ranger.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:39)

And just one point, because I want to be super clear on this, cuz it matters. Hegseth is not saying there will be no women in combat ever. What exactly is he saying?

Lawrence Quill (6:49)

He said basically there'll be PT standards and everyone must meet the highest male standard. What he's mostly talking about is the ability to lift very heavy things, I guess to stand in for maybe dragging a wounded comrade who's loaded down with body armor out of the line of fire. If women can make it, excellent. If not, it is what it is. If that means no women qualify for.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:14)

Some combat jobs, so be it.

Lawrence Quill (7:17)

That is not the intent, but it could be the result. But before he get into this job, he had written extensively about removing women from ground combat roles. To be fair, he has praised, for example, women fighter pilots. Well, you've heard from me. So now it's the main event.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:37)

Pete Hegseth was followed by President Trump, who also addressed all these assembled generals. And just to give a taste of what these senior officers were hearing, the President said the military should use US Cities as training grounds.

Lawrence Quill (7:51)

It seems that the ones that are.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:54)

Run by the radical left Democrats, what they've done to San Francisco, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, they're very unsafe places. And we're going to straighten them out one by one. And this is going to be a major part for some of the people in this room. That's a war too. It's a war from within. It's your beat to talk to veterans. How did they hear that? What kind of reaction Are you hearing?

Lawrence Quill (8:16)

Well, first of all, I mean, this is within an hour long speech, I should say. And if Secretary Hegseth summoning all these general officers to hear him recite passages from his book is unusual, we just don't want to normalize how rambling this speech was to these general officers who have ostensibly very important jobs. So it was a very long speech full of the normal grievances and digressions. And then three quarters of the way in, in what seems like an offhand remark, President Trump talked about having the US Military practice in these cities. And the reactions I've heard, first of all, we have to say follow along political lines. If you're a Trump supporter and there are many, many in the US Military and the veteran community, then they have generally approved of what he says. And at this point, it's not news. But this idea of American troops pointing their weapons of war at their fellow citizens in the homeland, among many former officers has really just, it's still, I guess, something that they can be shocked by.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:31)

And what was your read, Quill, as somebody who's tracked the military, tracked veterans for many years now, to the silence in the room itself. 800 people. It's hard to keep a crowd that big quiet about anything. This was greeted with, with silence to the point where President Trump looked to be a little uncomfortable at some points that he was getting no reaction the way he's used to getting at a big rally, for example.

Lawrence Quill (9:57)

Yeah, I mean, he made some jokes at the beginning to try and I guess get the crowd to loosen up, which, considering that is not something that general officers do. You know what, just have a good time. And if you want to applaud, you applaud. And if you want to do anything you want, you can do anything you want. If you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank. There goes your future. There was a little laughter in the room. Hard to say whether it was at the joke or out of discomfort. And so the generals, they kind of just sat there in stony silence like they're supposed to behave in anything that they perceive as a political situation because they swear an oath to the Constitution, not to a president or a party. And I heard a lot of concern beforehand about how these generals would react and people saying, well, you know what if they do cheer? But after it happened, one Pentagon official just messaged me on a secure signal. I expected nothing less.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:03)

After a quick break, we will talk about what is in President Trump's proposed peace plan for Gaza and as importantly, what's not in it. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr.

Aya Batrawi (11:22)

Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics because we have the same questions you do, like what's really in my shampoo? Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's Life Kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Hello, can you hear me? If you can, it means you and.

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The Christian rapture was predicted to happen this past week.

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It didn't. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of you all feel like.

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We'Re living in the end, end times. And on It's Been a Minute, I'm.

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A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story. But right now you probably need more on up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the upverse podcast from npr.

Mary Louise Kelly (12:40)

Okay, we've got our eye on a number of developments to do with Gaza this week. There's the flotilla that is that was headed for Gaza trying to deliver food and aid. We know the Israeli military has intercepted that flotilla. It is a very fluid situation as of this hour. I'll note we're taping just coming up to tape, 10am Eastern on Thursday. Then there's President Trump's 20 point plan to end the war in Gaza. The president unveiled this plan on Monday. He had Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu standing right next to him throwing his support behind it. Trump suggested his plan could mean not another shot is fired in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, quote, maybe for eternity. That is, how should I put this? Supremely optimistic to think that not another shot will be fired. Maybe for eternity. I guess kick us off by speaking to how different this plan is from all the other ideas that have been floated and have not exactly brought eternal peace to Gaza.

Aya Batrawi (13:47)

Yeah. And also I think he's forgetting the West Bank. It wasn't really actually included or mentioned in his plan very much. But anyways, so this plan is Trump's, you know, big idea for how to end this war in Gaza. Some of these are not necessarily new ideas. You know, you'd release hostages in exchange for a certain number of Palestinian prisoners. Israel would finally have to lift its blockade now and allow in much more aid to reverse famine and starvation that is happening there. That is according to experts in our own reporting. But I think what's most interesting about this plan, it's the first time we hear President Trump come up with a plan not only to end the war, but also what he thinks can happen after. And this is where it gets really fuzzy and is super unclear. There's this board that he would chair that would somehow oversee the administration of Gaza for an undefined period of time. It would be also managed by former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. And then there'd be unidentified international members on this board, and then they would oversee some kind of Palestinian body of technocrats that are not affiliated with any particular party. So really unclear what role would Palestinians have in actually governing Gaza. But the most, I think, kind of crucial parts of this are like Hamas disarmament. So this is something that not only Israel and the Trump administration really want to see, but also certain Arab governments who are tired of this, like the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia and others. They really do want to see an end to these militant groups in Gaza.

Mary Louise Kelly (15:14)

Yeah, well, and if I can jump in, that just raises all, you know, the central question that's been on my mind, which is why would Hamas sign on to this if they're going to lose the leverage that they have in the form of hostages if they have to disarm and they have no role in this power sharing authority that, as you say, is a little fuzzy but would eventually be governing. Why would they sign it?

Aya Batrawi (15:40)

Well, there's a number of reasons why they might have to agree to some of it. First of all, the language, because it is so fuzzy, does allow for maybe some agreement. Maybe that fuzziness is on purpose. In some ways. The offer right now says there would be a decommissioning of weapons that could be interpreted as storing of weapons, for example, not necessarily laying down your arms and handing them all to Israel. But also, do keep in mind, this is so complicated. You know, the Hamas political leaders outside, the ones that Israel tried to bomb and kill in Qatar, are not the same Hamas guys that are on the ground in the tunnels fighting, you know. And so there is a disconnect between the two. Can the Hamas political leadership get these fighters on the ground who have nothing to lose and have lost everything? Can they get them all to agree to this deal. And that's what's happening now in Qatar. And I think what we're hearing and what I'm hearing from my own sources is that Hamas is going to come back to this offer with questions, because they have real questions, so do the other groups, which is, when does Israel withdraw from Gaza? There's no timetable for that either.

Mary Louise Kelly (16:36)

But to that point that they have questions, I was reading this morning that the Qatar's Prime Minister went on Al Jazeera and said, look, we need a lot more details, we need more discussion, we need more negotiations. But isn't there value? You're not going to have every T crossed and I dotted. Isn't there value in having something on the table that creates a little bit of space that gets you to something that is a more durable ceasefire and peace?

Aya Batrawi (17:01)

Obviously, that would be, in an ideal scenario, the obvious way to go. However, given the lack of trust between not only Israel and Hamas, but also Israel and Arab states. Qatar, for example, the prime minister, the interview you're talking about, he was asked, did it get. Did you believe that Israel agrees to this deal? Because we had Prime Minister Netanyahu standing next to Trump, basically saying this is a great plan and praising it and being heavily involved in the final points of it before it was released. And what did the Qatari Prime Minister say? He said, over our two years of negotiating with Israel and what we've seen, we don't really know, meaning Israel, there's enough wiggle room in this plan, the way it stands now, that the war could come back or that Israel could find a way, or the far right coalition that Netanyahu governs could find a way to continue this war or somehow, again, drag it back on. I don't know. The thing is, the far right coalition has been very. There are members in that coalition who are opposed to the plan the way it is. They want to continue this war and they want the full expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza, which this plan says will not happen. And they want Jewish settlements in Gaza. So, you know, there's a lot of, let's say, people and groups that could make sure that this, this deal doesn't work out. And I think that's the real concern. So that's why there's some real questions here. And so the questions kind of are necessary because, you know, Arab states don't want to invest billions of dollars into rebuilding Gaza or starting to rebuild Gaza and put troops on the ground. If there's a high possibility that this plan doesn't go through and doesn't work out well.

Mary Louise Kelly (18:34)

And you raise a fascinating point there, which is that it's one thing for Benjamin Netanyahu to stand at the White House in America and in English say he's all in, but he's got a whole lot of selling of this to do to hardline conservatives back home in Israel. With that, we will take a short break. When we come back, OSINT Open Source Intelligence. This is Sources and Methods from npr.

Aya Batrawi (19:05)

There is so much happening in politics in any given week, you might need help putting it all in perspective as your week draws to a close. Join the NPR Politics podcast team for our weekly roundup. Here, our best political reporters zoom into the biggest stories of the week, not just what they mean, but what they mean for you all in under 30 minutes. Listen to the weekly roundup every Friday on the NPR Politics podcast.

Mary Louise Kelly (19:31)

Every year in the U.S. about 1,000 people die in jail, many of them awaiting trial.

Lawrence Quill (19:36)

This isn't a problem that someone else.

Mary Louise Kelly (19:38)

Has to deal with. We all are at risk for dying in jail. In a special series, we'll look at why people are dying in jail and how to prevent it from happening on here and Now Anytime. A podcast from NPR and WBUR.

Aya Batrawi (19:56)

Shortwave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life.

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Powering.

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The food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the Short Wave podcast from npr.

Mary Louise Kelly (20:18)

Let's take a moment to say welcome if you're new to this show in the last week or two. And we wanna let you know that in addition to these regular Thursday episodes, you can also find occasional bonus episodes of the show that we drop earlier in the week. Those feel conversations with national security insiders, for example, most recently spy novelist David McCloskey. He is ex CIA and we talked about some of the spy tradecraft that he picked up while serving in various posts around the Middle East. So do check out that episode if you missed it. And now, as always, we will end the show with OSINT open source intelligence, meaning publicly available information that may nevertheless be revealing. AI you get to go first.

Aya Batrawi (21:03)

Well, I want to bring attention to this really incredible photo that the White House released in black and white, very classic photo. I think they want to make it a historic photo of some kind in which President Trump is holding a phone in his lap and then the cord and the and the phone is with Israel's prime minister and another chair. And he this is an Old school.

Mary Louise Kelly (21:25)

Phone, to be clear. Not a cell phone, like a corded thing like we all have on our desks and never use anymore.

Aya Batrawi (21:31)

The one with the buttons that you have to press. Exactly. And Netanyahu is holding, like the. Whatever. The part where you hold up to your ear and talking to. And he's got a paper in front of him, and this is the apology letter that he had to read out to, I guess, Qatar leadership to say, we're sorry for bombing you.

Mary Louise Kelly (21:49)

So this was President Trump making Netanyahu call and say, I'm sorry.

Aya Batrawi (21:54)

Yeah. And say he regrets doing that, which we haven't heard Israel's prime minister express regret almost on anything throughout this war.

Mary Louise Kelly (22:01)

And what struck you about the photo?

Aya Batrawi (22:04)

I think, first of all, it really did confirm to us that Trump didn't know about this attack because there was always, you know, you always never know. Like, how could the US not know? How did. How did Israel do this without the US Knowing? So there's. There was a lot of conjecture around whether that was true or not. I think that this photo kind of signaled to me it was like he really didn't know. And the other thing, too, is, I think is so astonishing, is just the way his face is in the photo and the fact that they released it. It really felt like a scolding, like, you know, don't forget who's in charge here. And I just thought it was a really astonishing photo. And then there was a readout from the prime minister of what he actually said, and Qatar immediately said that it was an apology. So I just think it's one of these photos you really don't see ever. And it was just an incredible photo that came out this week.

Mary Louise Kelly (22:49)

One of those photos you could look at for a long time and keep taking something fresh away from it. Okay. My Osint this week comes from an interview I did with a man named Yossi Cohen. Yossi Cohen was the former director of Mossad, the Israeli espionage agency. And we talked about the news. I asked him about this Gaza peace plan. He thinks it can work. But he has a new book out, a memoir. And a couple hundred pages in, he drops this tantalizing crumb. This is part of a passage. He's talking about how great US Israel intelligence cooperation is. And he says, Yossi Cohen says that he met alone with President Trump, that Netanyahu was not there, that Trump asked him personally to undertake. And I am quoting, a super special operation. So I was curious. My question, why. Why you, When President Trump had the whole CIA at his Disposal, I don't know.

Lawrence Quill (23:47)

I think that this question has to go to him or to the directors of the CIA. But I think that Mossad, in a given place, in a given time, has shown very convincing capabilities behind enemy lines. And when the President did ask if I can do it, and I said, of course I can. This is not only an American target, it's a target that values to the entire world. And that's.

Mary Louise Kelly (24:16)

Why was this outside the U.S. of.

Lawrence Quill (24:19)

Course it was outside the U.S. when was it? Some years ago.

Mary Louise Kelly (24:25)

Some years ago.

Lawrence Quill (24:26)

And I was still director.

Mary Louise Kelly (24:28)

And it was a success, the mission.

Lawrence Quill (24:30)

It was a huge success with the CIA. I worked closely with my counterpart at the time, director of the CIA, Gina Hospital. And we have conducted this wonderful operation somehow together with our. I mean, Mossad's capabilities operationally. And this is what we did.

Mary Louise Kelly (24:51)

So there you go, Ayan Quill, to dig in on and ponder. What was the super special operation that only the head of Mossad could do? I have no idea, but it's a morsel worth chewing on. Quill, can you talk about that?

Lawrence Quill (25:07)

Figure that out. I want to hear the rest of that story someday. Yeah, my ascent is just something that stuck out in. One of the things that Pete Hegseth said in this long speech was essentially, I'll quote him, the new compass heading is clear. Out with the Corelli's MacKenzies and Millies, and in with the Stockdales, the Schwarzkopfs and the Pattons. And he's mentioning all of these US.

Mary Louise Kelly (25:29)

Military general, iconic generals.

Lawrence Quill (25:30)

Yeah, Past and present iconic. You know, so he mentions the one he wants to emulate, Patton and others. Tough guys. And then he sort of condemned the first three. Milley, we know, clashed with President Trump when he was his chairman of the Joint Chiefs. General McKenzie, fairly or not, is associated with, you know, the horrible chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. But Corelli, I was like, why Pete Corelli? You know, he's known as one of these generals in Iraq who figured out that you can't kill your way out of an insurgency. Better known for helping veterans after the war with making traumatic brain injury a huge priority for the Department of Defense and working on post traumatic stress issues. And so I thought, when did Hegseth cross paths with Corelli? And it turns out it was way back in 2006, almost 20 years ago. A colonel who Hegseth had served under and admired in Iraq got a letter of reprimand from then Lt. Gen. Pete Corelli because his soldiers under that colonel's command, not Hegseth's had been convicted of murdering some Iraqi detainees. And so Corelli wrote the letter of reprimand that ended that colonel's career. And I have to wonder if that's something that now Secretary Pete Hegseth remembers. I reached out to Corelli for comment. I know him because of his work with veterans. And he wrote back, I can only say I was honored to be included in the same sentence as Generals Milley and MacKenzie, two great leaders that I admire.

Mary Louise Kelly (27:06)

Very respectfully, Pete, what a tale. That's NPR Veterans affairs correspondent Quill Lawrence, thank you.

Lawrence Quill (27:15)

Oh, thanks so much.

Mary Louise Kelly (27:16)

And international correspondent Eva Batrawi in Dubai. Thanks to you, too.

Aya Batrawi (27:20)

Thank you.

Mary Louise Kelly (27:22)

Before we go, we want to take a moment here at the end of our show to note something important, which is that yesterday, October 1st was the first day in more than 5050 years that public media operated without federal funding. The reason that we're still here on October 2nd is because of you. We've heard from a lot of listeners who were worried, who were confused that maybe their favorite NPR shows would go away after Congress rescinded funds for public broadcasting over the summer. And while it is true that public media is now engaged in the immense challenge of reinventing how we operate, NPR is committed to that, to the reinvention. And as long as you keep listening, we're not going anywhere. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for listening. Thank you for your support this week more than ever. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. We are back next week with another episode of Sources and Methods from npr.

Aya Batrawi (28:26)

At All Latino, we celebrate Latin music all year round, but during Latin Music Month, we really amp it up. Once again. We're turning the Tiny desk into El.

Mary Louise Kelly (28:35)

Tiny and bringing you 11 hot off the desk performances.

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Hear musical giants like Gloria Estefan in a more intimate setting and get to know newer artists like Macario Martinez. Celebrate Latinidad with us all month long on the Alt Latino podcast from npr. For world renowned cellist Joshua Roman Long.

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Covid caused an identity crisis.

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That was probably the lowest point. No confidence in my ability to recover. Crisis of faith about what music meant.

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On the TED Radio Hour, how he found his way back to music and.

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A new sense of self.

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Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts on Fridays.

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