Sources & Methods — NPR

Episode Title: Insiders reveal 'wrecking ball' at Trump's DOJ: how two reporters got the scoop
Air Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guests: Carol Leonnig and Aaron Davis (Washington Post investigative journalists, co-authors of How Politics and Fear Vanquished America’s Justice Department)

Overview of the Episode

This episode dives into the unraveling of the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) under political pressures spanning the Trump and Biden administrations. Mary Louise Kelly interviews Carol Leonnig and Aaron Davis, acclaimed Washington Post investigative reporters and Pulitzer Prize winners, about their new book chronicling how politics and fear have eroded the bedrock independence of the DOJ. The conversation weaves through high-profile investigations, revelations about delayed probes into Trump’s attempts to overturn the 2020 election, and the current state of the DOJ in Trump’s second presidency.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Book and Reporting Process

• The Tip-Off: Leonnig and Davis began their investigation following a tip that serious probes into Trump’s role in overturning the 2020 election had been delayed under the Biden DOJ ([02:21]).
  • Quote (Leonnig, 02:21): “We were surprised to find that the tip completely panned out — that investigation under the Biden DOJ and Attorney General Merrick Garland really did not get fully started for 15 months after a low level investigator first raised the concern.”
• The reporting revealed DOJ’s internal reluctance to aggressively pursue sensitive cases related to the previous administration.

2. Key Moments after January 6th, 2021

• The Sherwin Press Call: Michael Sherwin (then D.C. federal prosecutor) promised an expansive investigation, including into politicians and potentially Trump himself. This set off headlines nationwide ([03:31-04:20]).
  • Quote (Davis, 03:46): “Michael Sherwin is asked a question, ‘Will you investigate politicians and what they did yesterday?’ … Sherwin says, ‘We will investigate anybody.’”
• Despite public assurances, substantial DOJ action was significantly delayed for over a year.

3. Merrick Garland’s DOJ: Noble Intentions, Slow Response

• Garland’s tenure was marked by a deliberate, cautious effort to restore DOJ independence—but this caution led to slow movement on critical cases ([05:02]).
  • Quote (Leonnig, 05:02): "Merrick Garland … came in with very much noble intentions. … But all that care created a sense of paralysis."

4. The Role of the January 6th Committee

• Congressional investigations forced DOJ’s hand, spurring movement on cases DOJ had been hesitant to pursue ([05:53]).
  • Quote (Leonnig, 05:53): “The House investigation actually spurs … real time response from DOJ inside.”

5. Behind-the-Scenes Shocks: Delayed Investigations & Jack Smith’s Battles

• The team uncovered that initial calls for investigating Trump’s election interference were dismissed within DOJ ([07:07]).
  • Example: An investigator’s urgent warnings in December 2020 were treated as nuisances.
• Jack Smith’s efforts as special counsel to remove Judge Eileen Cannon were notable for insider resistance—even “the Solicitor general rejected his request” ([07:07]).

6. Present Day DOJ: The ‘Wrecking Ball’ Under a Second Trump Administration

• Notably, the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey symbolized the extent of politicization ([09:10]).
  • Quote (Leonnig, 09:10): “The tipping point for me…was when former FBI Director James Comey was indicted…The mighty Justice Department is using its powers to charge someone criminally when the facts appear…slim to non-existent.”
• DOJ’s power is being redirected towards political enemies while career expertise is being lost.

7. Long-Term Consequences: National Security and Rule of Law

• Interviewees sounded the alarm to try to defend foundational American principles.
  • Quote (Leonnig, 10:16): “They wanted to sound the alarm about what was happening, what had happened, and the things they wished could be fixed … they are going to make Americans wake up to the esoteric academic sounding phrase: rule of law.”
  • The institutional exodus jeopardizes America’s security and its preparedness for future crises.
  • Quote (Leonnig, 11:44): “We’ve gotten rid at the Department of Justice of centuries’ worth of experience … There’s no imaginary force field around America. It’s these people that have been driven out.”

8. Are There Any Reasons for Hope?

• Career prosecutors across the country still prosecute genuine crime, and some insiders are “fighting the good fight” ([12:00]).
  • Quote (Davis, 12:00): “…There are U.S. attorneys offices out around the country and they are solving and prosecuting real crimes and still…taking care of the American public.”

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Investigative Delays:
  • “We were surprised to find that the tip completely panned out—that investigation under the Biden DOJ…did not get fully started for 15 months.” — Carol Leonnig (02:21)
• On why many DOJ insiders spoke up:
  • “…They came to us in droves because they wanted to sound the alarm about what was happening…” — Carol Leonnig (10:16)
• On political prosecutions:
  • “When you bring cases like this, that’s the hallmark of a dictatorship.” — John Keller (as paraphrased by Leonnig, 10:45)
• On loss of DOJ experience:
  • “…We’ve gotten rid at the Department of Justice of centuries’ worth of experience in stopping a terror attack, in combating corporate fraud, protecting us from a cyber hack.” — Carol Leonnig (11:44)
• On ongoing honest work:
  • “People are fighting the good fight, trying to make sure that cases are weighed appropriately and fairly as they always have been.” — Aaron Davis (12:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:26 | Carol Leonnig on the tip leading to the investigation | | 02:21 | Leonnig on delayed DOJ investigation under Biden | | 03:31 | Aaron Davis on Michael Sherwin’s Jan 7th press call | | 05:02 | Mary Louise Kelly asks about Garland’s approach | | 05:53 | Leonnig on House Jan 6th Committee catalyzing DOJ movement | | 07:07 | Leonnig on behind-the-scenes shocks inside DOJ | | 09:10 | Leonnig on indictment of James Comey, and weaponization of DOJ | | 10:16 | Leonnig on whistleblowers, consequences for democracy & national security | | 11:44 | Leonnig on the exodus of DOJ expertise and security vulnerabilities | | 12:00 | Davis on positive efforts ongoing in regional DOJ offices | | 15:35 | Davis on methodology: interviewing over 250 people for the book | | 18:00 | Leonnig on the ethical argument to convince sources to speak | | 20:28 | Discussion on sources misleading and methods to verify their statements | | 21:38 | Example of social media misinformation vs. what actually happened with Giuliani’s phone |

How the Reporting Was Done: “Inside the Room” on DOJ

• Source Development:
  • 250+ interviews over two years ([15:35]), with many insiders motivated by concern for American democracy.
• Convincing Sources:
  • Emphasized the public’s right to know, and the historical importance of their testimony ([18:00]).
• Source Verification & Fact-Checking:
  • Cross-referencing accounts to ensure accuracy, especially when sources tried to mislead for political reasons ([20:28-21:38]).
• The Human Element in Institutions:
  • The book’s editor encouraged framing DOJ as a “living, breathing organism” shaped by the values of its people ([18:00]).

Conclusion & Takeaways

The state of the DOJ is both a warning and a call to action:
Career officials and investigative journalists see institutional guardrails eroded, politicized prosecutions, and a talent drain risking national security and the rule of law. Yet, hope persists in the integrity of remaining professionals and the willingness of insiders to speak up—despite the risks. The episode underlines the crucial role of investigative journalism in exposing uncomfortable truths about foundational American institutions.

For further insights, the book discussed is “How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department,” by Carol Leonnig and Aaron Davis.