Iran ceasefire over? / NATO drama / Khamenei funeral

Summary

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Sources & Methods – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Iran Ceasefire Over? / NATO Drama / Khamenei Funeral
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guests: Tom Bowman (Pentagon Correspondent), Hadil Al Shalchi (Istanbul Correspondent)
Date: July 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Sources & Methods, Mary Louise Kelly and NPR correspondents Tom Bowman and Hadil Al Shalchi dissect the pivotal security events of the week: the high-stakes NATO summit in Ankara, the abrupt end of the Iran ceasefire, and the charged funeral of Iran's late Supreme Leader Khamenei. The conversation weaves together the fragility of Western alliances under Trump, the escalating U.S.–Iran confrontation, and the reverberations of Khamenei’s death inside Iran and across the region.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NATO Summit: Avoiding a Rupture on Turkish Soil

[02:17–09:19]

• Anxiety Over Trump’s Attendance & Criticism:

  • Allies worried Trump might threaten to withdraw the U.S. from NATO or cause a public rupture.
  • Trump’s recurring claim: the U.S. “carries more than its fair share,” and Europe are “freeloaders.”

• Diplomacy Through Flattery and Deliverables:

  • Mark Rutte (NATO Sec. Gen.) and other leaders used praise to keep Trump engaged and avoid confrontation.
  • “A lot of praise for Trump. Everyone came in thinking, let's show unity, credibility and keep President Trump happy.” – Hadil Al Shalchi [03:23]
  • Europe adopted a 5% GDP defense spending goal by 2035—a key Trump demand.

• Turkey’s Erdogan as the ‘Actual Trump Whisperer’:

  • Erdogan’s role was pivotal—“He gave him a flyover, he gave him a military band… He’s the only leader [Trump] went to visit.” – Hadil Al Shalchi [05:43]
  • Trump hinted he might not have attended were the summit not hosted by his “friend” Erdogan.

• Controversial F-35 Fighter Jet Issue:

  • Turkey wants the F-35, but U.S. law blocks the sale unless Turkey abandons Russian S-400 missiles.
  • “If you have both the F-35 and the S400 missile system, that missile system can test the stealth… People are aghast.” – Tom Bowman [06:14]
  • This is expected to lead to a congressional showdown.

• Trump’s Mixed Messaging:

  • Trump vacillated: critical of allies, then suddenly pleased by the summit’s end.
  • Memorable moment: “If you could have seen the respect and the love in the room, and it's love, really, for the country, for our country.” – Trump (quoted by Tom Bowman) [07:40]

• Poland as a Big Winner:

  • U.S. to send 4,000 troops and support missile production in Poland.
  • “Poland came out quite well... got this missile deal to build what's called a barracuda missile.” – Tom Bowman [08:01]

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2. Ukraine: Securing Patriot Air Defense & Shifting U.S. Policy

[11:13–13:21]

• U.S. Grants Ukraine License to Build Patriot Missiles:

  • Only Germany and Japan previously held this license; Ukraine’s is a significant strategic gain.
  • “It’s key that they get these Patriots… but it's not going to happen anytime soon. The supply chain already is in rough shape now. It's stretched.” – Tom Bowman [11:29]

• U.S. Policy Shifts Under Trump:

  • “It’s a huge shift… American workers are going to be building these things. The technology comes from American defense industry. So it's a win for Ukraine. It's also a win for American defense industry as well.” – Tom Bowman [13:00]

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3. The Iran Ceasefire Collapses: Back to Tit-for-Tat Attacks

[13:21–18:28]

• Ceasefire Breakdown:

  • U.S. airstrikes on Iranian naval targets sparked retaliatory missile attacks by Iran against U.S. bases in Kuwait, Bahrain, and attempted strikes near Jordan.
  • “Some people would say that we couldn't even call it a ceasefire even back in April… but [now] Trump said that it was over yesterday.” – Hadil Al Shalchi [14:37]

• Ambiguous Endgame:

  • Trump maintains that “negotiations will continue” and the “blockade may come back”—signaling no full-scale war (yet).
  • “No, no, no, this is just, we are just meeting force with force.” – Trump (via Hadil Al Shalchi) [14:46]

• Strategic Chokepoint: The Strait of Hormuz:

  • The U.S. and Iran contest shipping routes; Iranian attacks slow global oil flows, driving up prices.
  • “It's a Strait of Hormuz. It's not really closed, but it's not really open… The U.S. cannot open the Strait of Hormuz.” – Tom Bowman [15:42]

• Ripple Effects:

  • Energy prices surge globally; stock markets suffer.
  • “Oil prices have jumped with the flurry of attacks. Stock prices have fallen.” – Mary Louise Kelly [15:42]

• Who’s Advising Trump?

  • Trump relies on Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Dan “Raisin” Kaine (not seen as forceful), and Secretary of State Marco Rubio.
  • “He isn't forceful enough in basically saying this is my best recommendation… He basically offers the menu, but not really pressing as previous chairman of the Joint Chiefs.” – Tom Bowman [16:55]

• NATO Allies Reluctant to Join U.S. in Hormuz

  • Erdogan signals willingness to help clear mines, seeking Trump’s favor.
  • “He's telling him, ‘I care about the stuff that you care, and I'll help you with a Strait of Hormuz if you want me to.’” – Hadil Al Shalchi [18:28]

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4. Iran’s Supreme Leader Khamenei—Funeral, Mourners, and Divisions

[20:32–24:40]

• Massive, Charged Funeral:

  • “Iranian state media showed seas of people… carrying red flags [symbolizing] revenge, others carrying signs that said kill Trump… lots of chanting ‘death to Israel, death to the U.S., death to Trump.’” – Hadil Al Shalchi [21:03]

• Public Reaction: A Country Divided:

  • Mixture of grief and resentment: some saw Khamenei as a martyr, others angry over regime repression and costly spectacle.
  • “There is one woman who told me, ‘as soon as he's buried, it's as if this person never existed and his sinister voice has been erased from everyone's memory.’” – Hadil Al Shalchi [23:02]

• Succession Mystery:

  • The late leader’s son, presumed successor, absent from proceedings—possibly due to grave injury.
  • “He didn't [show up], not so far, at least…” – Hadil Al Shalchi [23:54]
  • “Mujtaba Khamenei… seriously wounded… maybe you lost a leg.” – Tom Bowman [24:31]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Erdogan’s Role:
  “Erdogan really pulled all the stops for Trump… nobody else got.”
  – Hadil Al Shalchi [05:43]

• On the F-35 Dilemma:
  “If you have both the F-35 and the S400 missile system, that missile system can test the stealth… People are aghast.”
  – Tom Bowman [06:14]

• On Summit Atmosphere:
  “If you could have seen the respect and the love in the room, and it's love, really, for the country, for our country.”
  – Trump, quoted by Tom Bowman [07:40]

• On Iran Strikes:
  “No, no, no, this is just, we are just meeting force with force.”
  – Trump, quoted by Hadil Al Shalchi [14:46]

• On Intelligence Disclosures:
  “We have cameras. That's called Space Force… we have cameras that can read the badge of the person going over to a site.”
  – Trump, quoted by Mary Louise Kelly [28:08]

• On Iranian Public’s Divisions:
  “As soon as he's buried, it’s as if this person never existed and his sinister voice has been erased from everyone's memory.”
  – Anonymous Iranian, via Hadil Al Shalchi [23:02]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:17] – Setting Up the NATO Summit & Trump’s Attendance
• [03:59] – The 5% Defense Spending Pledge
• [05:43] – Erdogan’s Courtship of Trump
• [06:14] – The F-35 and S-400 Dilemma
• [07:40] – Trump’s Shift in Tone, NATO Deliverables
• [08:01] – Poland’s Gains from the Summit
• [11:13] – Ukraine to Manufacture Patriot Missiles
• [13:21] – Iran Ceasefire Breakdown
• [14:46] – Trump’s Framing: “Meeting Force with Force”
• [15:42] – Strait of Hormuz and Energy Impacts
• [16:28] – Who Advises Trump on National Security?
• [18:28] – NATO Allies and the Iran War – Erdogan’s Offer
• [21:03] – Khamenei’s Funeral: Public Displays, Calls for Revenge
• [23:02] – Mixed Public Reaction Inside Iran
• [23:54] – Succession Mysteries, Mujtaba Khamenei Absent
• [28:08] – Trump Discloses U.S. Reconnaissance Capabilities

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Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) Notebook

• Army Navy Country Club TV Wars:
  “There were bitter political arguments [over] which channel the TV… now the TVs… All sports, all sports.”
  – Tom Bowman [25:11]

• NATO Summit Press Feeding Frenzy:
  “Ankara library… so many of us from all over the World… this had the best food… All of the Turkish journalists [were] filming us eating… and [big decisions] just in the building next door.”
  – Hadil Al Shalchi [26:25]

• Space Force Spy Satellites:
  “We have cameras… in space… can read the badge of the person going over to a site. Mohammed something. We say it's Mohammed something. Is there with shovels. Well, shovels won't get you there.”
  – Trump, quoted by Mary Louise Kelly [28:08]
  – Tom Bowman: “It's definitely true… can actually read a license plate… now they probably can read a badge.” [28:50]

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Tone & Language

The episode blends the rigor and depth of national security analysis with moments of humor and reportorial camaraderie, maintaining an NPR signature of measured, conversational authority.

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For listeners: This episode unpacks the week’s geopolitical drama with clarity and surprising anecdotes, from Ankara’s hospitality to Pentagon debates and the fuzziness of “peace” in the Gulf. Even for those who missed the broadcast, this summary tracks every critical thread and crash-landing world event.

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Transcript

[Mary Louise Kelly]

For three weeks in 2020, part of my Seattle neighborhood was taken over by a protest occupation.

[Tom Bowman]

We were here to protest police brutality,

[Mary Louise Kelly]

but it ended in tragedy.

[Tom Bowman]

The whole space felt darker and angrier.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Join me as I investigate the unsolved killing of 16 year old Antonio Mays Jr. Listen to we Keep Us Safe on the embedded podcast from npr.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

I think the summit can be considered maybe a diplomatic success because it actually

[Mary Louise Kelly]

avoided a RUP Trump and NATO allies met in Turkey this week. What did everyone want? What, if anything, did they get? And where does the alliance go from here? Meanwhile, Trump says the ceasefire with Iran is over. This is Sources and methods from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. It is July 9th, which is a Thursday, which means it's Sources and Methods Day, the best day of the week because we get to break down the biggest national security stories. We with NPR reporters out there covering them. Back with me back at it in the studio here in Washington, Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Hi, Tom.

[Tom Bowman]

Good to be here.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And joining us from Turkey, our new Istanbul correspondent, Hadeel Al Shalci, making your debut on the podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

So excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

We always timestamp this. So let me timestamp it is around noon here in Washington, which means seven in the evening for you, Hadil. And we've invited you on today because you're covering the big NATO summit right on your turf in the Turkish capital of Ankara. So welcome to Turkey. Welcome to your new beat. Thank you for taking the time to chat it through with us. There's a whole lot to talk through, but I want to start just with the expectations going into this big NATO summit. There was anxiety among NATO allies that Trump would blow up the whole thing, that he might threaten to pull out of NATO again, that he might actually go through with it this time, that he would find a way to leave his allies in a lurch. We're going to walk through it step by step. But just the headline, where did things land?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

I mean, just taking a step back, we have to remember that Trump has always complained for a long time that the US Carries more than its fair share in NATO.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Europe are freeloaders.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

It spends too much. Exactly. That they haven't been stepping up. And so that's kind of his attitude coming into this summit. And everyone, all the Europeans and other allies are concerned about that. I think the summit can be considered maybe a diplomatic success because it actually avoided a rupture. Allies came in deliberately avoiding public confrontation. Mark Rutte, the NATO secretary general, was really Kind of over the top with the flattery and the praise. There was a moment during a press conference when a Danish journalist asked him, you know, you stand next to Trump and you're listening to him threaten to take over Greenland again and insult Spain. Does this have any effect on your self respect when you sit next to

[Tom Bowman]

him like that and say nothing? You know, what I always do is

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

acknowledge when praise is due. And I think we should praise Donald Trump for the fact that NATO is so much stronger. Of course it has to do with. So it was a lot of praise for Trump. Everyone came in thinking, let's show unity, credibility and keep President Trump happy. That was, that was the aim of this. And I mean, at the end of the day, Europe did give Trump a win. You know, they reiterated their new, their target of spending 5% of GDP on defense related security investments by 2035, which was something that Trump has pressed on for many, many years.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So sounds like Mark Ruta proving himself adept once again at.

[Tom Bowman]

He's kind of a Trump whisperer.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Deftly sidestepping a direct question from a journalist.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

I would actually, I mean, I would say the actual whisperer in this case at least a NATO summit was President Erdogan, Turkey's president.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Stay there for a second because these two Erdogan and Trump have a really interesting relationship. Didn't Trump say at the very beginning he might not even have shown up for this summit had it not been hosted by his buddy Erdogan on Turkish soil?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

Yeah, and I mean, he said, I was very disappointed with NATO if it weren't held in Turkey, where my friend happens to be a strong leader, a strong person, it's possible that I wouldn't have attended. And their relationship is very interesting. I mean, we always know that Trump likes a strong man. He's praised people like Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping. So it's not really a surprise that he admires him. Actually, in yesterday's press conference at the end of NATO summit, he thanked Erdogan and called him a strong person, a strong personality who leads who people leave him alone and who leads a successful country. And that to me, that kind of statement gave me a peek into how what President Trump thinks of as a strong leader and a successful country, I mean, people leave him alone, people are intimidated by him, they're scared by him. That's kind of the message that I'm getting when he says that people leave him alone and successful country. I mean, yeah, but Turkey is currently facing severe political crisis. Clampdown of democratic freedoms, unstable economy. So Erdogan really pulled all the stops for Trump. He gave him a flyover, he gave him a military band. He's the only leader that he went to visit. I mean, all of that stuff, nobody else got.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Trump actually, he tried to speak a few words in Turkish. Is that right? Right. As he was landing and this whole. The red carpet was being rolled out.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

Yeah.

[Tom Bowman]

Merhaba Asgar.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And there were some deliverables here. There's been this whole issue over the F35. Tom, hop in.

[Tom Bowman]

You know, I think that surprised a lot of people. The F35, one of the most sophisticated warplanes in the. What Trump said is, you know, I

[Mary Louise Kelly]

may just back up and set this up for us. Turkey wants F35.

[Tom Bowman]

Everybody wants an F35 and they have

[Mary Louise Kelly]

been allowed to buy.

[Tom Bowman]

European nations have the F35. Turkey wants it. The problem is Turkey also has the Russian made S400 missile system. Right. So if you have both the F35 and the S400 missile system, that missile system can test the stealth, can test the sensors and the radar of the F35, look for vulnerabilities. Right. So people are aghast. A lot of people on Capitol Hill say, you know, listen, we don't think it's a good idea for Turkey to get these. Now the other thing is, in May 20, 2019, Trump signed the defense bill. And in that bill it says Turkey cannot have F35s. Right. Unless it gives up the S400 missile system and promises never to have it again. Right. So this is going to be a huge battle in Congress in the coming weeks and months over this whole issue of Turkey getting the F35.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So we've been kind of going down different paths here trying to sort out where the summit's landed, which is actually, as I think about it, appropriate because I was struggling, and I suspect I'm not alone, to figure out what is the US position on any number of things from the F35 to other bigger picture, NATO deliverables. Trump was very flip floppy. On the one hand, he was attacking and criticizing NATO allies, but then by the end he sounded quite pleased with them.

[Tom Bowman]

If you could have seen the respect and the love in the room, and it's love, really, for the country, for our country. I don't want to say me because you'll say, oh, he's so conceited. He's such a conceited person. But they do. Yeah, I think overall it was amiable. But also, again, as Hadil mentioned, Trump took some digs at Denmark Remember, he wants to buy Greenland. He wants to take over Greenland.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Denmark, which had gone quiet for a

[Tom Bowman]

while, resurfaced that well, they are having negotiations, I'm told. And the what I'm hearing from officials is that the US Wants to build additional military bases in Greenland, but they can do that already under a 1951 treaty, number one. Number two is again, he's attacking Spain, which spends 2.1% of its GDP on defense. Right. And Spain says, listen, we have a lot of other needs in our country to spend the money on. But also don't think we're freeloaders because we send a lot of our troops to, to the eastern part of NATO for operations and we send more troops than anyone in NATO or almost anyone in NATO on peacekeeping missions. So let's back off on this sense of we're just not doing enough. Poland came out a big winner here and that was a little told story. Remember, Secretary Hegseth blocked 4,000 troops going to Poland. Trump reversed it. So those 4,000 troops are heading to Poland, number one. Number two, the Poles are going to build a base for those troops in Poland. And also they got this missile deal to build what's called a barracuda missile as well. So Poland came out quite well. And Hegseth actually praised Poland as a really good ally.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, time for a quick break. When we come back, Ukraine gets defense help from the U.S. plus, the Iran ceasefire. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr. 250 years ago, the nation's founders considered a free press a critical protection for we the people. Today, the NPR network proudly upholds your First Amendment rights with reporting accountable only to you. It's something we protect together. Join the people who power the NPR network by showing your [e-mail] President Trump

[Tom Bowman]

says the ceasefire with Iran is over. This week on Consider this, a former high ranking US Diplomat shares his thoughts on what could happen next.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

The rulers in Tehran clearly believe they have a stronger will than the United States. I don't think there are any good options.

[Tom Bowman]

That's this week on Consider this. You can get the full story behind the headlines every afternoon. Listen on the NPR app or wherever

[Mary Louise Kelly]

you get your podcasts. This week on Short Wave, could your next ride to the airport be in a flying taxi?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

So you open up your Uber app and you've got UberX and Uber pet and now there'll be Uber Air.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

That reality may be only a few years away, but how is this futuristic travel possible? Find out on Short Wave NPR Science podcast Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. We are back with Hadil Al Shalchi and Tom Bowman. And Tom, let's go to Ukraine, which was expected to dominate the NATO summit. Iran ended up overtaking a lot of the oxygen in the room. We're going to get to that in a moment. But on Ukraine, there were some developments, including a big one. The US Saying Ukraine will be allowed to manufacture Patriot air defense systems. That's a big deal.

[Tom Bowman]

Explain why Ukraine's been pushing for this for quite some time. They want a license to build Patriot missiles, the air defense missiles, the best in the world in their country right now, only Germany and Japan have those licenses to build Patriot missiles.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And they want these so they can shoot down incoming Russians.

[Tom Bowman]

Absolutely right. As we've known for the past several weeks, in particular, Russia has used ballistic missiles that really hammer Kyiv. It's been awful. A number of people have died, a lot of people wounded, hitting apartment buildings and so forth. So it is, it's key that they get these patriotic. But again, it's not going to happen anytime soon. The missiles are made by Raytheon. They make about 600 per year. Now. The hope is they can ramp up to 2,000 in a couple, two or three years. Right. So Ukraine can build a factory in its country, but the supply chain already is in rough shape now. It's stretched. Right. So I talked to retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Dave Deptula. He's one of my go to guys on these issues. And he basically said, listen, it's a good thing, but the first thing, they need more Patriot interceptors, Patriot missiles right now from the US and from Europe. Germany will have to ramp up its production. And then thirdly down the road, Ukraine will have its own Patriot missile facility. But it's going to take some time, but again, desperately needed to prevent Russia from hammering all the cities with ballistic missiles.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So questions about the timeline on these Patriots, but the what about just the significance of the US Saying Ukraine, you can have this thing. How big a shift is that in terms of Trump's attitude toward Ukraine?

[Tom Bowman]

Oh, it's a huge shift. And I think part of this also is, you know, the American defense industries, Raytheon and some other subcontractors are going to be making money, too. American workers are going to be building these things. The technology comes from American defense industry. So it's a win for Ukraine. It's also a win for American defense industry as well.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, so Iran, which again, this was a summit about European alliances, but Iran has this Habit of reestablishing itself with the war at the top of the agenda. Hadil, where are we? We're back to shooting at each other. The U.S. and Iran, what happened?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

Right, so on Wednesday, U.S. cENTCOM announced that it had started to strike. It struck some Iranian naval installations, radar, small ships. And it says it's, it was in retaliation for Iran attacking some ships that are trying to, they were trying to get through the Strait of Hormuz. And then Iran retaliated again and targeted US Military bases yesterday and today in Kuwait, in Bahrain. And the Jordanian army also said that it had intercepted missiles in its airspace or it was on its way to Jordanian territory. So, I mean, I don't even know. Like, some people would say that we couldn't even call it a ceasefire even back in April when it started, because these flare ups have been happening ever, you know, ever since the ceasefire started. But you know, some people would ask like, is it over? Yes, because Trump said that it was over yesterday.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

But he also said negotiations will continue.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

Exactly.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Talks will continue. He says the blockade may come back. But on the other hand, we're not back to all out.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

I was just going to say that he also, in the press conference yesterday, he was asked, is this the beginning of the war again? Is this restarting the war? And he said, no, no, no, this is just, we are just meeting force with force.

[Tom Bowman]

The real problem here is this. We talked about this before. It's a Strait of Hormuz. It's not really closed, but it's not really open. The US Navy has this pathway, southern pathway along Oman that it's trying to expand so ships can go through. Iran is basically saying, no, you have to come through our approved routes closer to our coast. Right. So anytime they see ships going through that Oman route and they start firing on them. There are several ships hit just in the past several days. And the ripple effect of that is not enough. Ships are getting through the Strait of Hormuz, period. So as a result of that, we're gonna see likely price of oil has gone up and consequently gas prices will go up. That is the essential problem here. The US Cannot open the Strait of Hormuz.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Yeah, I know. Our colleague, chief economics correspondent Scott Horsley, has been reporting how oil prices have jumped with the flurry of attacks. Stock prices have fallen. Tom, I was so hoping we were past the point where I would have to ask about your local gas prices, but what are they?

[Tom Bowman]

My go to place, the Delray Service center in my neighborhood, it's now below $4, $3.97 for the first time in at least a couple of months. But again, with too few ships going through the Strait of Hormuz that will likely go above four bucks at some point.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

All of this makes me wonder. It's the question I keep asking. But who has the president's ear during this phase? Do we know how decisions about military strikes are being made?

[Tom Bowman]

I'm told he listens a lot to General Kaine, Dan Kaine, Raisin Cain, as Trump likes to call him, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He listens to him quite a bit. He's very calm and measured. I don't think he listens to Hegseth as much because he doesn't have a lot of experience.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Isn't General Kaine's job though to advise on. Here are the options, sir. Advising on. Here's the best policy. Here's what I think we should do.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, here's the thing. Or do we know a chairman of the Joint Chiefs or any senior military officer is going to say, sir, here are the options and here's what's happened if you take that option as opposed to another option, the pros and cons. One of the things I'm hearing from people that know Kaine is that he isn't forceful enough in basically saying this is my best recommendation for you to do. He basically offers the menu, but not really pressing as previous chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Look at a Colin Powell or a Mark Milley. He's a little more reticent, I think, not forceful in offering his view, his best military advice to the President. I think that's what we're seeing now. Clearly, Marco Rubio is someone he's listening to because he's Secretary of State and national security adviser. I think he listens to some members of Congress but they're in a tough spot now. It's unlikely you go back to a full scale war. Right. And I think we're going to see this low level skirmishing going back and forth for weeks, if not months.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

One more to you, Hadil. Just to bring us full circle, we've been talking about the NATO alliance, the summit that just happened this week that you've been covering. Trump's latest round of complaints against NATO has been, hey, y' all didn't step up and help us with the Iran war. You haven't stepped up. Please come help us keep open the Strait of Hormuz and keep the Strait of Hormuz open. Any change on that this week? Did you see any sign that NATO allies are more inclined to get involved in a war that America started?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

Not that I heard of. Not from the Europeans at least, or Canada. What I did hear that was interesting was that President Erdogan said that he was ready to start helping with the Strait of Hormuz. He said that he would be willing to start demining it so that ships can move through it better. I found that quite interesting because again, he's trying to get into Trump's good books. He wants to, you know, wants to further his defense ambitions and he wants to impress Trump. And so he's telling him, I care about the stuff that you care, and I'll help you with a Strait of Hormuz if you want me to.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Interesting. All right. Time for our last break. When we come back, Iran finally holds a funeral for its late supreme leader. And we'll open up our reporters notebooks for osint. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

Gram Platner is out on the latest NPR Politics podcast. We are unpacking the downfall of a candidate once seen as a standard bearer for Democrats, plus, what Platner's exit from the main Senate race could mean for the balance of power in Congress. Listen to the NPR Politics podcast every afternoon to stay a step ahead of all the latest political news wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

Hi, it's Terry Gross, host of FRESH AIR. Hey, take a break from the 24 hour news cycle with us and listen to long form interviews with your favorite authors, actors, filmmakers, comedians and musicians, the people making the art that nourishes us and speaks to our times. So listen to the FRESH AIR podcast from NPR and whyy.

[Tom Bowman]

The knockout phase of the World cup is underway.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

At every stage, the excitement level goes up and up and up, creating core

[Mary Louise Kelly]

memories with strangers in a foreign land.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

This is what it's really about.

[Tom Bowman]

Coverage of the highs and lows from the NPR Network continues. Find the World cup tab in the NPR app for more.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

We're back with Tom Bowman and Hadil Al Shalchi. And Hadil, you in your spare time, in between flying from Istanbul to Ankara and back and tracking a NATO summit, you were also covering these several days of funeral proceedings for the late Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. This week. He was, of course, killed in airstrikes on the very first day of the US Israel war with Iran. What have you seen? What has struck you as you have watched the funeral processions?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

I mean, I think it was a real formidable scene. Iranian state media showed seas of people coming to visit the coffins of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the four members of his family who were also killed with him. They were in this huge prayer complex in Tehran on the first day, July 4, on Saturday, and they were on this stage. And everyone, you know, a lot of people came to visit. People wearing black, weeping openly, men beating their chests, which is a Shia tradition. And a lot of people carrying red flags which symbolize revenge. Others carrying signs that said kill Trump, like a hashtag, killtrump. And there were lots of chanting of death to Israel, death to the U.S. death to Trump. And one of. So there are these people who hold mics during the, during the funeral or during the visitation and sort of sing songs or recite Quran. And there was one person who started calling for Trump to be killed during, during that visitation. So there's a lot of anger and a lot of mourning. And then like you said, it's a days long funeral. So the body was taken to the holy city of Qom on Monday and then he was crossed over into Iraq to holy sites in Najaf and Karbala. And then he is meant to be buried in his hometown of Masha today.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Back in Iran, you were trying to reach people, reach ordinary Iranians and ask their impressions of all of this. What, what did you hear?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

I heard a mix. You know, there were some people who really were mourning, who were really upset, who really wanted revenge for his killing. And then there were others who said things like, why are we spending such huge amounts of money on such a funeral, on a person who has ordered the killing of so many people? You know, referring to the protesters that were killed in January, for example,

[Terry Gross]

there

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

is one woman who told me, you know, as soon as he's buried, it's as if this person never existed and his sinister voice has been erased from everyone's memory. She said, I don't care about which they put the body or they dump the body in. So I think he was a really divisive person in Iran. I also talked to some people who said they were against Khamenei, but her mother was somebody who was going to go to the funeral. So he's also divided families.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And I'll note we are not naming these people. This is standard practice when we try to speak to people in Iran because they are at such risk speaking to foreign journalists that we agree to not use their names. One question, I was wondering, would his successor, his son, show up to any of the funeral proceedings? Do we know if he did?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

He didn't not so far, at least,

[Mary Louise Kelly]

or not that we know of. That we were able to spot.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

Yeah, not that we know of. Yeah, I guess not that we know of. But they did show, you know, Iranian state TV showed some other public figures that, that usually don't. That make very rare appearances. Like the head of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps was there and you hardly see him. The Iranian president was there, the speaker of Parliament. And so there were some. Khamenei's other three other sons were there for the, for the funeral, for the ritual funeral, prayers. So, you know, some people did come out. Some really important people did come out.

[Tom Bowman]

Yeah. But Mujtaba Khamenei, he was seriously wounded in some of the airstrikes. Is that the reason he didn't show up? There's talk maybe you lost a leg.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

We don't know.

[Tom Bowman]

Right.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

We don't know. There's many questions. His name has not been brought up in any of the reporting that we've seen in any of the state media statements. He's just, nobody's talked about him even like the people that we've interviewed who were at the funeral never talked about him. So, yeah, he just, he. No, no, he never showed up.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

A mystery. All right, let me turn us to Osint. Open source intelligence, not so secret yet telling details that we stumble across in our reporting.

[Tom Bowman]

Tom, Bitter political arguments, they seem to be getting worse. You look at social media, you listen to your friends having a Thanksgiving dinner, oh, my uncle loves Trump, my daughter is a democratic socialist. They get in these bitter arguments. There are strange friendships over these political times. And now those divisions have reached the August Army Navy Country Club across the river in Arlington, Virginia. I'm told they used to have Fox News on and CNN on. And then there were some bitter political arguments with maybe retired military people or their guests or so forth.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So now over, like which channel the TV and the Army Navy channel, or

[Tom Bowman]

what they're saying about Trump or what they're saying about Schumer or this or that. So now the TVs at the Army Navy Country Club give you a list of maybe two dozen channels. All sports, all sports. So my guess is maybe come December there will be bitter arguments when Army Navy football game is held again. But until then, look for sports at the Army Navy Country Club.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I imagine they'll make an exception for the football game. Hadil, what do you have?

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

I mean, the Ankara library. We were where the journalists were sequestered for the NATO summit. It was such a scene. So many of us from all over the World were there from Luxembourg to Japan to Korea to us. And we were fed really well. You know, I spoke to one Icelandic journalist who said he's been to six NATO summits, and this was. This had the best food. I mean, Turks are known for their really great food, but this one really went all out. They apparently asked all of the Turkish journalists to film us eating, feeding, maybe eating. There was like a guy with a. With a Turkish ice cream stand. It was such a spectacle. And it was. And it was so weird because these big decisions are being made just in the building next door that we were all supposed to be covering. But we were eating.

[Tom Bowman]

Feeding sounds good.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

We were feeding. It was not so bad. It wasn't so bad.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Time tested. Way to keep journalists happy is lay on the buffet. All right. Mine is also from Ankara, where I was not, alas, but this little nugget buried deep in that news conference that President Trump gave. He was taking questions from reporters, and the subject of Iran's nuclear stockpile came up. Tom, as you know, we have discussed over and over on this podcast what happened to the nuclear material.

[Tom Bowman]

You mean the dust?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

The dust that's believed to be buried under a mountain of rubble after last summer's strikes on Iranian nuclear sites. All these questions, is it safe? Could somebody get to it? How would we know? Here's the president.

[Tom Bowman]

We have cameras. That's called Space Force there in space, but we have cameras that can read the badge of the person going over to a site. Mohammed something. We say it's Mohammed something. Is there with shovels. Well, shovels won't get you there.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, so among the questions that those comments prompt are, is the president supposed to be telling us about ardspy satellite capabilities at an overseas press conference? You're shaking your head no.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

No.

[Tom Bowman]

The intelligence community gets very antsy when presidents go out and start talking about intelligence capabilities.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

My other question is, is it true? Can we read the name badge? Some guy.

[Tom Bowman]

No, it's definitely true. That's been true for many, many years. I was told years ago that the spy satellites, the cameras on them, can actually read a license plate. And that was maybe 10, 20 years ago. So now they probably can read a badge on your uniform.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Well, I trust you and I trust your sources, but Space Force folks out there, current Space Force officer alumni, give us a shout. Let us know. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this. You can write us. All of you, everybody listening, please write us. We'd love to read your comments and your questions. We are at sources and methods all one word. Sourcesandmethodspr.org and with that, let me bring us to a close. NPR Istanbul correspondent Hadil Al Shalchi, thank you for joining us on your Sources and Methods debut.

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

You're welcome.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman, thank you.

[Tom Bowman]

Always a pleasure.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Before we go, a reminder, you can find this and many other NPR podcasts in our app. The NPR app, not just the big shows you already know, but also incredible podcasts produced by local stations across the country. Who knows, your next favorite story could be waiting in a city you have never even visited. So download the NPR app today. That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. And we are back next week with another episode of Sources and Methods from npr.

[Terry Gross]

Hi, it's Terry Gross, host of FRESH AIR. Hey, take a break from the 24 hour news cycle with us and listen to long form interviews with your favorite authors, actors, filmmakers, comedians and musicians, the people making the art that nourishes us and speaks to our times. So listen to the FRESH AIR podcast from NPR and whyy.

[Tom Bowman]

Whether you're dedicated to a team, I

[Hadil Al Shalchi]

want to see them win.

[Tom Bowman]

Rooting for a nation. I'm not even a soccer fan, but I'm just repping my people or just appreciate the joy the beautiful game inspires.

[Terry Gross]

No Scotland, no party.

[Tom Bowman]

Find the World cup tab in the NPR app, home to all of NPR's coverage on and off the pitch.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

This message comes from ixl. Providing an online learning environment intended to keep students skills sharp over summer vacation. The platform covers core subjects and adapts to each child's pace. Receive 20% [e-mail] NPR.