Mary Louise Kelly (3:17)

It would make him a de facto president of Gaza. Who else is on the board? And I guess significantly, who isn't?

Daniel Estrin (3:25)

Well, all kinds of countries with questionable human rights record have been invited and accepted, from Hungary to Belarus, Saudi Arabia and Egypt in the Middle east. Who's not here are the traditional allies of the US Big European countries who have been deeply skeptical about what this border peace is really all about and whether it's a kind of a rival United nations giving Trump unchecked power.

Mary Louise Kelly (3:50)

Greg, in terms of some of the specific names that are popping up, there are some with deep, if controversial, deep experience in the Middle east, people like former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. There are also people like Susie Wiles, Trump's White House Chief of staff. What are we learning?

Greg Myre (4:06)

Yeah, I mean, very much almost an extension of Trump's inner circle in terms of Susie Wiles, his chief of staff, Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, his two go to guys all over the world, Steve Witkoff and his son in law, Jared Kushner. So very heavy on Trump's sort of inner circle or the people he turns to in everyday instances now, as well as a few other outsiders. Somebody in particular that's been appointed, appointed for the Gaza piece of this. But Trump's looking, it seems to make it very much similar to the operation he's running out of the White House now. And there's no real end date on this, that Trump would apparently continue on as chairman of this Board of Peace even after he left the presidency. So he may be thinking into the future in terms of how he could play a role in global affairs even after his presidency may be over.

Mary Louise Kelly (5:03)

I mean, this was a board again created because of Gaza to figure out what happens next in Gaza and lasting peace and stability in Gaza. Are there any Palestinians? Do you know?

Daniel Estrin (5:15)

The only Palestinians are the ones on the technocrat Committee who are really at the very bottom of the pyramid. No Palestinian from Gaza or from anywhere for that matter, are part of the top leadership of the Board of Peace. The Palestinian committee will be taking orders from President Trump and his board over how to handle things from education to infrastructure in Gaza. Interestingly, who is on this board? Also, Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said he accepted an invitation from Trump to join of Course, Netanyahu is indicted for war crimes in Gaza. There's an international arrest warrant out for him. And the Board of Peace is supposed to be monitoring the ceasefire in Gaza. So having Israel on the board monitoring itself could be seen as a conflict of interest.

Greg Myre (6:04)

And I would just add to that. You know, Trump's choosing to start this with Gaza is a really hard nut to crack. I mean, when you just look over the years, I think, Daniel, I'm just thinking off the top of my head, either you or I has been covering Gaza for the last 25 years. And we know just how difficult it is to get anything done in Gaza. So if Trump wants this to be something that he can expand beyond Gaza, he's really picked a hard case to get started. And the success or failure of this larger board of peace with global ambitions could rise or fall on how he does in Gaza. I mean, if there's a breakthrough and real success in Gaza, that would be significant. You'd have to tip your hat. But a lot of people have been trying in a lot of different ways for a long time with nothing to show for it.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:55)

Well, it's so interesting listening to you two, who, as you note, have deep experience covering Gaza and setting that against the way President Trump, Trump talks about it here. He was, this is last week in Davos, Switzerland.

Daniel Estrin (7:08)

We're committed to ensuring Gaza is demilitarized, properly governed and beautifully rebuilt.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:15)

It's going to be a great plan.

Daniel Estrin (7:16)

And that's where the border peace really started.

Greg Myre (7:19)

And I think we can spread out.

Daniel Estrin (7:21)

To other things as we succeed with Gaza.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:24)

We're going to be very successful in Gaza. As you two scan this draft resolution, is there anything that suggests how we get from point A, Gaza, in the state it is now to point B and beyond this beautifully rebuilt, properly governed Gaza?

Greg Myre (7:39)

Well, we've seen Gaza go backwards, literally for 25 years. I mean, I was there when heavy fighting broke out in 2000. I saw the Israelis drag their Jewish settlers out of Gaza in 2005. I saw Hamas win elections. I saw Hamas fight the other Palestinian faction, Fatah. And that was all by 2007. For the last nearly two decades, Daniel has been covering the ongoing conflicts in Gaza. So if you looked back at Gaza, it was in a much better place. 25 years ago, it seemed like you might be able to have a Palestinian state that Gaza could integrate with the region. And it wasn't going to be a barn burning economic success, but there could be some sense of statehood, of progress. Boy, you're just dealing with humanitarian Crises right now, rebuilding problems you didn't even have to worry about 25 years ago.

Daniel Estrin (8:34)

I mean, what's interesting to me, Mary Louise, is when you look at this draft resolution for what the Board of Peace wants to do in Gaza, the word Israel doesn't appear at all. And Israel now is effectively in control of all the borders. Israeli troops occupy more than half of Gaza after a two year war where Israel and its forces completely obliterated the majority of the buildings and not to mention the deaths of tens of thousands of people. This Board of Peace resolution leaves Israel's role vague. It does not call for a timetable for Israeli troops to withdraw. Other language you see in this resolution is the phrase New Gaza, like New York. I mean, Trump is phrasing it as if it's an entirely new entity, a new territory. And the test will be his whether he will pull off all these grand plans.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:33)

Just one more to you, Daniel, on Gaza. What it actually looks like, feels like, what the scope of the challenge there is. I was trying to reconcile these descriptions. We've been talking about a place that has been ravaged by war certainly since October 7, but had many challenges leading up to that. Our correspondent on the ground inside Gaza, Onas Baba, posted video this week showing inside restaurants, inside coffee houses. I had no idea that there were restaurants and people going out and getting coffee and that that small piece of the economy was starting to come back.

Daniel Estrin (10:12)

Well, yes, and it's, I think that image can be misleading. I mean, a lot of that food is being sold on the commercial market. It's not humanitarian aid. And the vast majority of people in Gaza can't afford it. And so you have this, this really strange reality where you do have falafel shops and you have even, you know, luxury goods available for like iPhones that apparently have been smuggled in. Now there's a corruption case being investigated by the Israeli police of Israelis making money off of smuggling in some of these items in Gaza. We're in the, in the upside down, okay. To pull from stranger things. We don't know what the next phase is now. What needs to happen, according to Trump's plan, is for aid, humanitarian aid, to flood Gaza. What Gaza needs are not this iPhones and fancy foods. What they need are tents. What they need are medicines. These items are not getting in the levels that are needed. And that just points to the bigger picture, the bigger question of what next for Gaza.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:24)

We're going to take a short break. When we get back, the remains of the last hostage taken in the October 7 Hamas attack were recovered and buried this week. What does that mean for the ceasefire plan? Nahed on sources and methods from npr.

Greg Myre (11:45)

For 47 years, Iranians have lived under a dictatorship. Many no longer want. Now the country may have reached a breaking point.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:53)

Iranians have recognized that they need to take matters into their own hands, pushing back against authority.

Greg Myre (11:59)

We ask three central questions about how Iran got here and what comes next. Listen to Throughline on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Daniel Estrin (12:19)

Yeah, I think that's a good weather vane for where the politics are headed in all of this.

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Daniel Estrin (13:17)

Israel's domestic security agency said that it started with capturing an operative from a Palestinian militant group in Gaza last month. And this man provided information pointing to a cemetery in Gaza City. And at the beginning of the week, an Israeli search team of more than 100 people went there to that cemetery, exhumed hundreds of Palestinian bodies, and later, according to the Israeli military, reburied them there. And they kept searching until a dentist, an Israeli dentist, identified the hostage's body through his dental records. And in exchange, Israel handed over 15 bodies of Palestinians to Gaza according to the ceasefire agreement.

Mary Louise Kelly (14:00)

Who was he the last hostage?

Daniel Estrin (14:01)

His name was Ron Gvili. He was a young special forces policeman. He was one of the first to, on October 7, 2023, to to fight Hamas militants who had stormed into Israel. He was one of the first Israeli officers to be killed, and his body was taken to Gaza and kept there as a hostage, along with 250 other people dead and alive, who were taken to Gaza and kept there as hostages. So now this is actually the first time since 2014 that no Israeli hostage, dead or alive is in Gaza. So this is a really big moment for Israelis. It's a closing of a chapter. You know, the plight of Israeli hostages was the most important thing for Israelis this entire war. Hundreds of thousands of people pouring in the streets every week, demanding that Israel make a deal with Hamas to free the hostages. And now the ceasefire agreement that Trump brokered in October allowed their return. Some alive, some dead, but now all of them have been returned.

Mary Louise Kelly (15:12)

This moment was marked this week with the funeral. You were there. Tell us where, what you saw, how it unfolded.

Daniel Estrin (15:24)

Yeah, I was at the funeral procession. His body was held at a military camp, the same camp in central Israel where hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bodies were brought on October 7th and processed. And I stood with Israelis lining the roads and overpasses. I saw a scene of about a hundred policemen and women flanking each side of an overpass, standing in a silent salute. And a row of cars came through accompanied by police with the body and with his family. And I watched his family, his mom, his dad, get out of the car and hug some mourners, including this one woman who I approached afterwards. I saw her bawling as she was hugging the mother of the deceased. Her name is Miriam Sidi. And when I spoke to her, I was really taken by this mix of emotions that I really think encapsulates what average Israelis are feeling in this moment. It was a moment of really reopening the wounds of the October 7th attack with this final funeral of a victim of that attack. And what surprised me was that she did not describe a sense of closure. She described a sense of dread about Israel's future. She spoke about the Israeli government not taking responsibility for their failure, the security failure of October 7th until today. And the head of that government, Benjamin Netanyahu, will be seeking re election later this year. And she was full of dread about the future of her country. And I think, you know, more broadly, and many of us, even in the US can relate to this sense of insecurity, uncertainty, instability. Here, the war is over. On paper, there is a declared ceasefire, although fire really hasn't ceased in Gaza. But that sense of instability and insecurity has not gone away.

Mary Louise Kelly (17:34)

Fascinating. Thank you for sharing some of that reporting. And meanwhile, one other thing to note just in terms of developments on the ground. The Rafah border closing. This is the southern border between Gaza and Egypt. It has been shut, mostly shut for 20 months. That might change this weekend. Daniel, what are you hearing?

Daniel Estrin (17:52)

Yeah, we hear it could open maybe as early as Sunday. It's a big deal. If it happens. This is Gaza's main portal to the outside world. It's been closed for much of the war. Right now we've been hearing about disputes over numbers. Netanyahu said publicly that only limited numbers of Palestinians would be allowed into Gaza from Egypt, but unlimited numbers would be allowed out. Egypt reportedly wants the numbers to be equal. But, you know, the big picture here is that if Gaza's border opens, it's important. There are about 20,000 medical patients, according to Gaza health authorities, who need treatment abroad, treatment that they cannot get in Gaza, where hospitals have been decimated, including thousands of children, including cancer patients, including critically wounded people. So we're going to be watching to see when that happens. Israel has promised it will.

Greg Myre (18:48)

And Daniel, I'm just thinking it was just over 20 years ago, end of 2005, when Israel pulled out of Gaza, handed over that Rafah border crossing to the Palestinians. And then that was, you know, it was a big deal. It was literally the first time in nearly four decades Palestinians could theoretically come and go without going through Israeli security. But that, of course, all broke down. And so here we are again, 20 years later trying to sort things out at that very critical Rafah border crossing.

Mary Louise Kelly (19:16)

At that same crossing. After a quick break, Iran, the United States is moving military assets to the Middle east, we are told, for a possible strike. We get the latest ahead on Sources and Methods from npr. This week on up first, more violence in Minneapolis. Democrats say they will block a spending bill in the Senate after another deadly ICE shooting. How will Republicans respond? And could the Trump administration rethink its strategy on immigration? You posted every morning with three stories you need to know to start your day up. First, listen on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts.

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Mary Louise Kelly (20:07)

Who does Homan report to? Up until now, it's been Stephen Miller. But I think the administration is seeing how much trouble listening to Miller has gotten them in when it comes to public opinion.

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Mary Louise Kelly (20:49)

And we're back. President Trump is threatening Iran again and what he wants a nuclear deal or the next attack will be, quote, far worse. He wrote that on social media. Trump says he's sending a quote, massive armada to the region bigger than what he sent to Venezuela. Well, here's Iran's response. That is Ali Shamkhani, councilor of Iran's supreme leader. And what he's saying there is any military attack on Iran will trigger Iranian attacks on the US Israel and those supporting them. So how seriously should we take this saber rattling on both sides? That is a question I put to Seema Shine. She focused on Iran back when she ran research and analysis for the Mossad. That's Israel's espionage agency, the Israeli counterpart to the CIA. She was here in Washington earlier today in our studio. We sat down. We're gonna share some of that interview with you now. It runs about eight minutes and then Greg and Daniel, I want you to listen cuz we're gonna come back and get your reaction to what Seema Shine had to say. Here's our conversation. How seriously do you take these threats coming out of the White House that the US Is prepared to hit and hit hard? And I wondered, does the way you hear those words change after Venezuela and the fact that the US did follow through on threats against a very different country, different part of the world?

Seema Shine (22:17)

Yeah, I think the president was encouraged by the success of Venezuela and Maduro and that only encouraged him. And I think that's the reason why we hear today also a lot of talking about taking out the supreme leader in Iran, either by killing him or by other means. Of course, this is if it happens. It's a major, major development. Iran is ruled by this leader close to 40 years. So that might be a dramatic event. The question is whether it will bring the result one of an agreement, two of Iran surrendering this way or the other on many issues, or will it start a prolonged war between Iran and the U.S. even though the forces you cannot compare. That is a huge question and a huge worry for different countries in the region. Not for Israel, but for the Gulf countries, Turkey and therefore we see them trying to prevent any American attack on Iran, which is very interesting as President.

Mary Louise Kelly (23:25)

Trump and his advisors contemplate their next move. Any cautions you would whisper in their ear, anything they might not be thinking about about the day after an American attack.

Seema Shine (23:39)

I assume they understand the capabilities of Iran. They are not very wide and very strong, but there are capabilities. The Iranians are talk about their capabilities in the maritime with unmanned boats that might attack this and other. They are putting out, you know, pictures not from currently, but from previous years of the Lincoln and others, and as if they were hinting that they will have destroyers that will attack the carrier. I think the capabilities of the US are such that most of what they will try to do will be prevented, will be intercepted. And so I think there are. But of course they might cause problems, no question about that. And if they feel that this is a war for the survivability of the regime. So everything is for this aim and.

Mary Louise Kelly (24:37)

This is they would be fighting with nothing left to lose.

Seema Shine (24:39)

Yeah, exactly.

Mary Louise Kelly (24:40)

Although you will remember better than I last summer, the Iranian response to US and Israeli air attacks was underwhelming. I think is fair to say when Iran says, oh, this time it would be bigger, we would respond like never before. Can they.

Seema Shine (24:58)

I think they are very limited. They are very limited. At that time, they used very much the ballistic missiles and they are talking about that they will attack Tel Aviv with ballistic missiles. But they have to understand that in the previous war, less than 10% of the ballistic missile have entered Israel. Most were intercepted on the way. So they have to take into account how much ballistic missiles they have, and they don't have the same numbers they had before the war, previous year. And they have to think how they calculate the next day, the third day, the fourth day. So I think they can make damage, but it is limited. And I think Israel knows how to handle it.

Mary Louise Kelly (25:41)

How strong Israel, the Iranian regime's grip.

Seema Shine (25:44)

On power today, internally, they are still strong, but everything. They understand that everything has been ruined. The problem is that the situation is so grave that they don't have any immediate answer that they can solve. They don't have an answer to the shortage of electricity, of water, to the fall of the money that doesn't have any value anymore. So inflation, everything. They. They just don't have an answer, a quick answer, that they can do something in order to improve the lives of the people. And I think they understand it and they don't have a solution to the situation.

Mary Louise Kelly (26:23)

So I have a spy question for you. Given your career at Mossad, not as.

Seema Shine (26:28)

A spy, as an analyst. Yeah.

Mary Louise Kelly (26:31)

Yes. But when I ask you these questions, how do we know what's happening in Iran even if the Internet comes back? Neither your country, Israel, nor mine, the United States has diplomatic relations with Tehran, meaning there's no embassy, meaning there's no place for the CIA or the Mossad to have a presence, a footprint inside the country.

Seema Shine (26:54)

How do we know so without knowing, I assume that both the CIA and the Mossad do have people inside Iran that will tell them, if they are not already telling them, in different ways. I think there is a capability of having different ways to understand what is happening on the ground. And I think there is an understanding of what is happening. Not everything, of course.

Mary Louise Kelly (27:22)

You're talking about technical ways, surveillance, technical.

Seema Shine (27:25)

As well as human.

Mary Louise Kelly (27:28)

So the impact of the digital blackout on the ability of the rest of the world's intelligence services to know what is happening inside Iran. Do we know how great it is?

Seema Shine (27:40)

We understand that all the time the Iranians know how important it is to bring to the international community the information from inside. And now that the Internet will be open, of course they are threatening the population that if they find someone sending pictures outside, of course people will try to find ways to do it. You cannot close 93 million people and make sure that nothing comes out. That's impossible. So they cannot close themselves from the international arena. And things will come out more and more. And I think it will be only encouraging President Trump to come and do something.

Mary Louise Kelly (28:21)

So it sounds like you're hoping that there are further developments in terms of military action from the U.S. you know.

Seema Shine (28:27)

It'S interesting because I was always very moderate and was accused of being too soft, maybe, and I really thought that an agreement could bring some solution to major problems that were security problems from the point of view of Israel, which, of course, the nuclear was the first one. But I think we are today in a very different situation. And after what the regime has done to its own people, you know, we understand if we look what happened in June and. And it's more than half a year till today, and Iran didn't change its policies. So this regime has not learned anything from what happened. On the contrary, they want to rebuild. And therefore, I think I have a little bit changed my mind, because I do think that this regime is not capable of doing anything different than it has been doing in the last decades and even stronger than what they have done, because the feeling that they are less secure.

Mary Louise Kelly (29:26)

So it will require some kind of external force or change to force change inside Iran.

Seema Shine (29:31)

I think so. I think so. It's a change in my way of thinking on the events. Not that I think that there is any solution to this regime. I don't know if it's possible to topple, actually. I would say it's not possible to topple from airstrikes, but. But you never know what happens inside once you succeed and once you change the leadership and perhaps Something will happen.

Mary Louise Kelly (29:57)

Okay, so my conversation there with Seema Shine, a former senior Mossad official. She is now at Israel's Institute for National Security Studies. Daniel, what leapt out at you as you listened?

Greg Myre (30:07)

Wow.

Daniel Estrin (30:07)

It was fascinating to hear her change of heart over the years, from believing that a deal could be made with the Iranians to being behind a US Strike. It sounds like. And, you know, officially in Israel, the government is not talking a lot about this right now. Israel doesn't want to be seen as pushing Trump one way or the other. But it's not really a secret. I mean, I did speak to a person here familiar with the matter who told me that, yep, Israel does want the US to strike Iran. It wants the regime to fall. Israel wants to join in on a US Strike on Iran, even willing to take the risk of that retaliation that Iran has promised. And I think you're hearing, you know, this Israel's new strategic doctrine that it's formed after October 7th. In the past, it was primarily focused on managing conflict, on containing conflict. Now we've seen Israel conduct preemptive strikes from, you know, hitting Hezbollah in Lebanon to the June war with Iran, which was a preemptive war on Israel's part. Israel's going on the offense. And so I think we hear loud and clear that Israel is hoping Trump will strike.

Mary Louise Kelly (31:32)

Fascinating. Greg, I'm curious what you heard, and I guess a question I would aim to you. Can the United States afford to inflame the region? An attack on Iran would not be separate and isolated from everything else we've been talking about on this podcast about Gaza and trying to bring peace to the region.

Greg Myre (31:52)

Absolutely. They're all interconnected. The thing that really struck me from that very interesting conversation was nobody's happy with the current status in Iran, but it's not clear any of the parties can change that. The Iranian regime has to be looking and saying there's deep disenchantment with our government, but they have found no way to deliver for ordinary people economically or in other ways other than, as we heard, just repeat what they've been doing, which is harsh repression and crackdown. We've seen millions of Iranians take to the streets. They want some sort of change. They can't do that at the ballot box. They can't do it with demonstrations. They're not allowed to organize in any way. They don't have weapons to fight back in any significant numbers. So they can't change it. And then there's the US And Israel, which do have the weapons and have attacked. But okay, maybe they take out some leaders or hit some security forces or a nuclear site, but that doesn't we saw 12 days in June that didn't change the regime. So it seems that the status quo is untenable. It can't stay like this forever. Everybody's disappointed with it. But. But who's got the power to change it? And the US Has.

Mary Louise Kelly (33:10)

And then the big day after questions of if we change it, then what?

Greg Myre (33:14)

Oh, exactly, exactly. And to your question about, yes, the US Would absolutely inflame the region. If there's another strike on Iran and it affects all these other things, it's going to stir up animosity in Gaza, for example, there's a situation playing out in Syria right now where there's fighting between the government and the Kurds who've been allied with the US and have been guarding ISIS prisoners. So there's all of these very sensitive spots where the US Is trying diplomacy and trying to talk its way out of an unstable situation filled with turmoil. Iran is just a strike on Iran will just ramp that up. So, you know, you may make some progress here but have setbacks there. And you have to factor all those competing ideas into your equation.

Mary Louise Kelly (34:05)

We are not going to run out of things to talk about on sources and methods anytime soon. I will wind down the show this week with a reminder. You can write to us with your questions, with your feedback. Write us at sourcesandmethodspr.org A thank you this week to listener Ben, who did write and said, I know Tom Bowman broke some rules with the bleeped word a few episodes ago, but that was my favorite moment. For those of you who missed that episode, it's worth going back and listening to. Tom Bowman was conveying his reaction to the news that the had just seized Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela. And Tom's reaction, which I can't say, but it began with holy and it ended with a word that rhymes with kit. So use your imagination. Thank you. Also to listeners like Caroline, still sharing their picks for our episode, Greg, about great spy novels and spy novelists. She wants to add a name to the list, Ben McEntire and specifically the Spy and the Traitor. It is a great book. It's a true story. By the way, it's not a spy novel. It's the real life tale of Oleg Gordievsky, the KGB agent. All right, we're going to end as we always do with OSINT open source Intelligence, the not so secret yet often telling details that we stumble across in our reporting. Daniel, what's Your Osint.

Daniel Estrin (35:26)

Well, Benjamin Netanyahu surprised us when he told the Economist in an interview recently that he would like to see Israel wean itself off US Military aid. We very deeply appreciate aid, the military.

Greg Myre (35:40)

Aid that America has given us over the years. But here too, we've come of age and we've developed incredible capacities and our.

Mary Louise Kelly (35:50)

Economy, which will soon reach, certainly within.

Greg Myre (35:52)

A decade, it'll reach about a trillion dollars.

Mary Louise Kelly (35:54)

It's not a huge economy, but it's not a small economy. So I want to taper off the.

Greg Myre (35:59)

Military aid within the next 10 years.

Daniel Estrin (36:02)

Pretty shocking thing to say given that, you know, Israel has been the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II. And President Obama signed a 10 year agreement with Israel for $38 billion in military aid. That was about 10 years ago, while the deal is ending in 2028. And now soon the U.S. and Israel will be starting to negotiate a new agreement. But, you know, for Netanyahu to say such a thing like we're ready to wean ourselves off military aid. What seems to be happening here is that Netanyahu didn' have a choice. It seems that President Trump, in his view, is not interested in giving money away for free. And that includes its important strategic partner, Israel, too. And it's just a fascinating time, you know, when many in the Republican Party are questioning Israel and the US Support for Israel. Traditionally, the Republican Party is a stalwart supporter of Israel wanting to pull that back. And so it's going to be fascinating to see what comes from here, what kind of defense cooperation there will be between Israel and the US Now.

Greg Myre (37:14)

Yeah, Greg, a sad one, I'm afraid. A former National Security Agency official named Mike Beck has just died in the past few days. He and a NSA colleague both fell extremely ill in Russia in 1996. He described himself as feeling like a bowl of jelly at the time and. And a decade later, both of them were diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. And beck was just 46 years old. He waged a legal case trying to say that he was attacked when he was on that trip. And in 2014, the National Security Agency put out a letter, unclassified, that said a hostile country had a high powered microwave weapon that could cause death or injury, but didn't know if it was used in the case against Beck. This again was 2014, two years before we started hearing about Havana Syndrome, a similar kind of case that we're still working our way through and trying to figure out. But it really points to this as something that's been around for a long time. You can go back to the 70s and 80s when it was widely known the Soviet Union was firing microwaves at the US Embassy in Moscow, presumably to gather intelligence. But it was something that senior U.S. officials would bring up regularly at the time with the Soviets. You're stop shooting these microwaves at the embassy. So there's a long, long history here and we're still working through the most recent iteration with these Havana syndrome cases.

Mary Louise Kelly (38:51)

Over the past decade, as you note, perhaps learning that this is a longer history than anyone may have realized. All right. I will end with I am going to a big cocktail reception tonight here in Washington. It is in honor of Jason Rezaian, our fellow journalist. He was the Tehran Bure chief for the Washington Post until he was arrested, imprisoned, spent 544 days in a prison, even prison in Tehran. The reception is because it was 10 years ago this month that he was released. Jason Rezaian is still working at the Washington Post. He is now director of Press Freedom Initiatives. And the event tonight is let's celebrate that he was released a decade ago. And also let's talk about those press freedom initiatives. And and this is a direct quote from the invitation to the event to support the next generation of fearless storytellers, which I share. The irony will not be lost on either of you that we're speaking in a moment when the current generation of fearless storytellers at the Washington Post are pleading to keep their jobs. There's a big campaign right now on social media where foreign correspondents from the Washington Post are begging the Post's owner, Jeff Bezos, please don't cut foreign coverage. There are all these questions about whether the international desk is about to be gutted at that newspaper. Also maybe the sports desk, also maybe local coverage. So a dark moment, a challenging moment for journalists and journalism. And it makes me think of you, Daniel, and say thank you. You're out there in the world along with our many colleagues who are out doing hard jobs in challenging places. And we're so grateful that you are and that NPR continues to support the work.

Daniel Estrin (40:38)

Amen. Thank you so much.

Mary Louise Kelly (40:39)

Amen. That is NPR's Tel Aviv based correspondent Daniel Estrin and NPR national security correspondent Greg Myre. Thank you to you both.

Greg Myre (40:50)

Sure thing, Mary Louise.

Daniel Estrin (40:51)

Thank you, Mary Louise.

Mary Louise Kelly (40:53)

And a note before we go, make sure you are following the show on the platform where you listen on Apple. That means you look for the plus sign. It'll be at the top of our show page on Spotify. Look for the big button that says follow that will help you get new episodes as soon as they're available, which is usually every Thursday around 5 or 6pm Eastern Time. Occasional episodes may drop earlier in the week, too, when we have a big interview to share. We're back next week. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Thank you for listening to Sources and Methods from npr.

NPR Promo Announcer (41:34)

This is Tonya Moseley, co host of Fresh air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube, but what you get with FRESH AIR is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else. Listen to the FRESH AIR podcast From NPR and WHYY on NPR's wildcard podcast, Oprah on the art of being alone. Are you good at being alone? Alone?

Mary Louise Kelly (42:09)

Oh, my God, I'm a master at it.

Daniel Estrin (42:13)

Tell me more.

Mary Louise Kelly (42:14)

I cherish it.

Greg Myre (42:16)

I revel in it.

Daniel Estrin (42:17)

I can't wait to be alone.

NPR Promo Announcer (42:19)

Watch or listen to that Wild Card conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube at NPR Wildcard.